{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":0.1,"endTime":3.24,"body":"[upbeat music] Miroslav Volf is one of the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3.24,"endTime":6.559,"body":"leading public theologians today. He's a professor of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":6.559,"endTime":9.0,"body":"theology at Yale Divinity School, and the founding"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":9.0,"endTime":11.96,"body":"director of the Yale Divinity School for Faith and Culture."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":11.96,"endTime":15.539,"body":"But guess what? He's not our guest today. We've had him on"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":15.539,"endTime":19.28,"body":"previously. Our guest today is a name you will recognize, because"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":19.28,"endTime":21.42,"body":"he and I have sparred back and forth-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":21.42,"endTime":21.429,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":21.429,"endTime":25.019,"body":"... On pronouns, empathy, a beloved Biola"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":25.019,"endTime":27.839,"body":"professor by name of Tim Muehlhoff. Now, you're"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":27.839,"endTime":30.92,"body":"wondering, why did I introduce Tim Muehlhoff after Miroslav"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":30.92,"endTime":33.88,"body":"Volf? Because Tim and I took a class together-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":33.88,"endTime":34.46,"body":"Yes, yes"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":34.46,"endTime":37.619,"body":"... Where Volf came out for four days, and we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":37.619,"endTime":40.628,"body":"sat through just some of the most brilliant- ... Insightful"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":40.628,"endTime":41.109,"body":"teaching-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":41.109,"endTime":41.109,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":41.109,"endTime":43.299,"body":"... And thought, \"Let's do a podcast together.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":43.299,"endTime":45.96,"body":"For both of our listeners here at the Think Biblically podcast"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":45.96,"endTime":50.56,"body":"at Winsome Convictions, just some lessons we took away, and I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":50.56,"endTime":52.259,"body":"think they'll enjoy it. That's the hope."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":52.259,"endTime":54.96,"body":"This is the cool thing about Biola, Sean, is"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":54.96,"endTime":59.38,"body":"every year, to just keep faculty sharp, they bring in some of the"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":59.38,"endTime":61.219,"body":"top, theologians,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":61.859,"endTime":64.9,"body":"thinkers, Christian thinkers, and then you can apply, get"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":64.9,"endTime":65.719,"body":"accepted-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":65.719,"endTime":65.73,"body":"That's right"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":65.73,"endTime":68.319,"body":"... And you sit in a class with your colleagues"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":68.319,"endTime":71.18,"body":"from all these different disciplines, and you do the"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":71.18,"endTime":74.14,"body":"reading ahead of time, and then they bring in a world-class,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":74.14,"endTime":77.599,"body":"theologian, and we got to... It, it was like being back in grad"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":77.599,"endTime":77.9,"body":"school-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":77.9,"endTime":78.209,"body":"Oh, man"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":78.209,"endTime":80.17,"body":"... But all the cool ways of grad school."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":80.17,"endTime":82.799,"body":"It was so much fun. I took a ton of notes."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":82.799,"endTime":83.06,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":83.06,"endTime":85.019,"body":"It was personally enriching. I was the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":85.019,"endTime":87.519,"body":"first one to turn in my application."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":87.519,"endTime":87.76,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":87.76,"endTime":89.34,"body":"I don't mean that as a sense of pride. I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":89.34,"endTime":91.18,"body":"mean, like, I was so pumped-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":91.18,"endTime":91.31,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":91.31,"endTime":92.43,"body":"... That Miroslav Volf-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":92.43,"endTime":92.43,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":92.43,"endTime":93.03,"body":"... Was coming-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":93.03,"endTime":93.14,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":93.14,"endTime":94.859,"body":"... That I was like, \"I gotta get into this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":94.859,"endTime":98.319,"body":"thing.\" So let's, let's jump into really what he's talking"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":98.319,"endTime":101.359,"body":"about, 'cause he's the head of kind of the Faith and Culture"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":101.359,"endTime":102.28,"body":"Center-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":102.28,"endTime":102.4,"body":"Yeah, yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":102.4,"endTime":104.939,"body":"... Is how, as believers in God, do we interact"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":104.939,"endTime":109.219,"body":"with the world? And of course, the world can be Christians, it"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":109.219,"endTime":112.68,"body":"can be the wider world, it can be creation itself-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":112.68,"endTime":112.989,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":112.989,"endTime":115.879,"body":"... And we need to think about all of those. So"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":115.879,"endTime":120.09,"body":"he wrote a piece on why did God create the world? I've got some"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":120.09,"endTime":122.18,"body":"thoughts, but jump in and tell us what you think, Tim."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":122.18,"endTime":123.739,"body":"Well, one of our good friends,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":124.28,"endTime":126.879,"body":"Greg Ganssle, who's just a top-notch philosopher-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":126.879,"endTime":127.159,"body":"Yep"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":127.159,"endTime":129.879,"body":"... He made a comment that I wrote down. He"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":129.879,"endTime":133.58,"body":"said this- \"You seldom hear Christians say, 'The world is"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":133.58,"endTime":137.78,"body":"good.'\" And that really struck me when he said that. When I was"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":137.78,"endTime":141.819,"body":"in grad school, I didn't tell people right away I was on staff"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":141.819,"endTime":144.06,"body":"with Campus Crusade for Christ back in the day."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":144.06,"endTime":144.439,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":144.439,"endTime":146.379,"body":"I just didn't want to lead with that. I didn't"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":146.379,"endTime":149.58,"body":"even lead that I was a believer. I was a grad student, so I was"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":149.58,"endTime":152.74,"body":"privy, Sean, to all these backdoor conversations."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":152.74,"endTime":153.18,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":153.18,"endTime":155.159,"body":"I mean, this is the Bible Belt, right? This is"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":155.159,"endTime":156.25,"body":"UNC Chapel Hill."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":156.25,"endTime":156.3,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":156.3,"endTime":159.939,"body":"And, I remember one comment somebody said, that"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":159.939,"endTime":162.74,"body":"we were really negative people, Christians. We think people are"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":162.74,"endTime":163.9,"body":"sinful,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":164.439,"endTime":166.919,"body":"everything that's wrong with the world, everything that's wrong"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":166.919,"endTime":169.5,"body":"with everything, we love to point that out. And I thought,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":169.5,"endTime":172.659,"body":"\"Okay, that's an interesting critique.\" And some of it's"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":172.659,"endTime":175.9,"body":"warranted, because you don't often hear Christians, as Greg"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":175.9,"endTime":179.58,"body":"said, say, \"The world is a really good place.\" Now, we have"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":179.58,"endTime":181.18,"body":"to be careful and unpack that-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":181.18,"endTime":181.71,"body":"Of course"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":181.71,"endTime":183.56,"body":"... But Volf really did a good job of"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":183.56,"endTime":184.129,"body":"unpacking that-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":184.129,"endTime":184.129,"body":"He did"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":184.129,"endTime":185.52,"body":"... Going back to Genesis."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":185.52,"endTime":186.319,"body":"He does."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":186.319,"endTime":188.62,"body":"And when God made the world, he's the one who"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":188.62,"endTime":192.8,"body":"said, \"It- this is good, very good.\" And I think even though"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":192.8,"endTime":196.12,"body":"it's fallen, and we'll get into what John later has to say about"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":196.12,"endTime":199.08,"body":"the world when he's talking about the fallen world, but we"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":199.08,"endTime":203.24,"body":"need to remember, God created the world to be a place, as Volf"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":203.24,"endTime":206.479,"body":"said, that we inhabited with each other and with God. I think"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":206.479,"endTime":207.539,"body":"that's a beautiful"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":208.379,"endTime":211.56,"body":"thing to think about, that God wanted to inhabit a physical"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":211.56,"endTime":212.18,"body":"space"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":212.8,"endTime":217.4,"body":"that we could enjoy together, and made it as creative as,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":217.4,"endTime":221.09,"body":"science tells us. It's amazingly in-depth and creative."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":221.62,"endTime":223.74,"body":"So Volf sent us these papers that he had written"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":223.74,"endTime":226.58,"body":"and had presented, and we got to kind of discuss them before he"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":226.58,"endTime":229.699,"body":"released them, so it was kind of fun insight. And he had one"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":229.699,"endTime":232.02,"body":"literally called Why Did God Create the World? [laughs]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":232.02,"endTime":232.43,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":232.43,"endTime":235.219,"body":"And it's kind of a simple question that kids ask."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":235.219,"endTime":237.139,"body":"I've thought about this a ton, Tim, but when I was reading"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":237.139,"endTime":238.18,"body":"this, I was like, \"Why didn't"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":238.939,"endTime":242.18,"body":"I quite piece it together this way?\" So he points out a couple"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":242.18,"endTime":244.759,"body":"things in here. He said, going back to, like, God calls"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":244.759,"endTime":248.18,"body":"Abraham, God delivers the children of Israel from slavery"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":248.18,"endTime":252.56,"body":"in Egypt, and all this to fulfill the one promise- \"I will"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":252.56,"endTime":255.37,"body":"dwell among- ... The Israelites-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":255.37,"endTime":255.37,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":255.37,"endTime":257.56,"body":"... And I will be their God.\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":257.56,"endTime":258.24,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":258.24,"endTime":260.66,"body":"You come forward to John's gospel, of course,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":261.18,"endTime":261.36,"body":"and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":261.879,"endTime":267.0,"body":"very clearly, it's about God who's coming, what? To dwell"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":267.0,"endTime":267.62,"body":"with us."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":267.62,"endTime":268.1,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":268.1,"endTime":270.56,"body":"God humbles himself in the person of Jesus,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":270.56,"endTime":275.42,"body":"who is fully divine, takes on human flesh. You know, and even"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":275.42,"endTime":278.639,"body":"in John chapter 4, it's like he's tired, so he sits down by"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":278.639,"endTime":279.069,"body":"the well."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":279.069,"endTime":279.1,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":279.1,"endTime":281.459,"body":"It's like he's God, but he's human,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":282.0,"endTime":285.439,"body":"and he's dwelling with us. So Volf says, \"Put simply,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":286.079,"endTime":288.5,"body":"God created the world to dwell in it.\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":288.5,"endTime":288.66,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":288.66,"endTime":290.199,"body":"And then he asks a question. He goes, \"Why did"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":290.199,"endTime":292.86,"body":"God create the first humans and place them in the Garden of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":292.86,"endTime":295.22,"body":"Eden?\" He said, \"To help the garden flourish"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":295.98,"endTime":296.36,"body":"as"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":296.879,"endTime":298.48,"body":"their home.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":299.16,"endTime":302.5,"body":"He says, \"The Bible closes making the same point. At the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":302.5,"endTime":306.019,"body":"very end of Revelation, you know, John of Patmos sees new"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":306.019,"endTime":308.92,"body":"Jerusalem coming from heaven and the renewed Earth. To make sure"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":308.92,"endTime":311.899,"body":"that John doesn't miss the meaning of what is happening"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":311.899,"endTime":315.5,"body":"before his eyes, a loud voice fr- you know, from God's throne"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":315.5,"endTime":320.25,"body":"says, 'See, the home of God is among mortals.' \""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":320.25,"endTime":320.25,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":320.25,"endTime":322.149,"body":"\"He will dwell with them. They will be his"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":322.149,"endTime":326.36,"body":"people.\" He says, \"God and the peoples of the Earth now have a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":326.36,"endTime":327.899,"body":"home together.\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":327.899,"endTime":328.459,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":328.459,"endTime":331.319,"body":"That's so simple, and yet it's profound,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":331.319,"endTime":334.1,"body":"and I don't know that I've thought about the world"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":334.1,"endTime":336.12,"body":"primarily through that lens"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":336.779,"endTime":339.759,"body":"for reasons that we will, we will get into."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":340.5,"endTime":342.839,"body":"Yeah, and we'll be there with- dwelling with"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":342.839,"endTime":346.519,"body":"him, interacting with him. That great passage in Genesis, in the"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":346.519,"endTime":350.62,"body":"cool of the day, God's walking. Certainly anthropomorphic, but"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":350.62,"endTime":354.439,"body":"you can see it. I mean, you- God is dwelling. So Sean, do you"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":354.439,"endTime":357.22,"body":"think when the, when the new heavens and the new Earth"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":357.22,"endTime":357.6,"body":"happen,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":358.22,"endTime":362.899,"body":"and God is omnipresent- ... Do you think now in the new"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":362.899,"endTime":365.377,"body":"Earth-... That we will go about,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":366.348,"endTime":369.728,"body":"interacting with each other, but we'll always have that presence,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":369.728,"endTime":373.247,"body":"almost like elevator music in the background, that we'll see"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":373.247,"endTime":377.108,"body":"the presence of God as we interact and move around in this"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":377.108,"endTime":378.807,"body":"new Earth?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":378.807,"endTime":378.927,"body":"I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":379.507,"endTime":381.228,"body":"don't know how to answer that question."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":381.228,"endTime":382.038,"body":"Wouldn't that be wild?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":382.038,"endTime":383.627,"body":"But [laughs] here's what I think. I think"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":383.627,"endTime":386.487,"body":"it's the new heavens and the new Earth, and it's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":387.168,"endTime":387.867,"body":"physical."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":388.526,"endTime":392.487,"body":"So sometimes we have this idea that God comes down and destroys"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":392.487,"endTime":393.048,"body":"this Earth-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":393.048,"endTime":393.697,"body":"Right. Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":393.697,"endTime":394.567,"body":"... Carts us off-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":394.567,"endTime":394.706,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":394.706,"endTime":397.627,"body":"... Somewhere else. That creates a sense that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":397.627,"endTime":402.048,"body":"this world is not our home. We don't have to care for this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":402.048,"endTime":402.827,"body":"world."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":402.827,"endTime":402.887,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":402.887,"endTime":404.747,"body":"I think when God comes down, it's like he's gonna"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":404.747,"endTime":409.327,"body":"restore the Garden of Eden. God placed Adam and Eve-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":409.327,"endTime":409.466,"body":"Yeah, yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":409.466,"endTime":411.168,"body":"... Carefully. And if you look in Genesis 2,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":411.168,"endTime":413.646,"body":"it's like you look in the original Hebrew, it's like God"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":413.646,"endTime":417.728,"body":"just gently placed them there with such care. That's what"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":417.728,"endTime":421.007,"body":"Prager argues in his commentary, like, this God who just places"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":421.007,"endTime":423.867,"body":"them there- ... Matters so much to them-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":423.867,"endTime":423.877,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":423.877,"endTime":426.206,"body":"... That in the new heavens and new"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":426.206,"endTime":428.627,"body":"Earth, I mean, is Jesus physically walking around? I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":428.627,"endTime":431.108,"body":"mean, I don't know the answer to that. I can't answer that, but"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":431.108,"endTime":432.048,"body":"it's physical."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":432.048,"endTime":432.427,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":432.427,"endTime":433.168,"body":"And we're in God's-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":433.168,"endTime":433.298,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":433.298,"endTime":434.596,"body":"... Presence relationally-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":434.596,"endTime":434.637,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":434.637,"endTime":438.267,"body":"... And we see Him. But that metaphor of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":438.267,"endTime":439.146,"body":"home-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":439.146,"endTime":439.336,"body":"I love it"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":439.336,"endTime":440.737,"body":"... I think is interesting."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":440.737,"endTime":440.767,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":440.767,"endTime":443.668,"body":"So I've got some thoughts on how I think about"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":443.668,"endTime":447.288,"body":"creation differently as home from this seminar, but I'm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":447.288,"endTime":450.908,"body":"curious, how does thinking about the world as our home shape the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":450.908,"endTime":454.846,"body":"way you think about its goodness or its brokenness or how we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":454.846,"endTime":456.206,"body":"should relate to it?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":457.567,"endTime":459.528,"body":"Well, I wrote down one quote when you, I, it-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":459.528,"endTime":459.966,"body":"Yeah, do it"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":459.966,"endTime":461.466,"body":"... It came to me when you were speaking, that"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":461.466,"endTime":464.627,"body":"God, Volf said, \"God is intimately involved with each"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":464.627,"endTime":468.697,"body":"small part of the world.\" Right? Remember Jacques Cousteau?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":468.697,"endTime":470.706,"body":"[laughs] Do you remember Jacques Cousteau?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":470.706,"endTime":471.257,"body":"Okay. [laughs]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":471.257,"endTime":472.747,"body":"Okay, do you remember that name?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":472.747,"endTime":473.737,"body":"I know the name, yeah, but like-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":473.737,"endTime":476.117,"body":"Yeah, a long time, long time ago, he was..."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":476.117,"endTime":479.137,"body":"He, he introduced the world to deep-sea everything."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":479.137,"endTime":479.247,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":479.247,"endTime":480.966,"body":"I knew nothing about the deep sea. I'm from"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":480.966,"endTime":482.447,"body":"Detroit, right?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":483.206,"endTime":487.048,"body":"But I remember this one episode where he goes deep as you"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":487.048,"endTime":490.387,"body":"possibly can in the ocean and sees some fish and makes the"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":490.387,"endTime":494.187,"body":"comment, \"No one's ever seen these fish before, ever. This is"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":494.187,"endTime":496.466,"body":"the first time they've ever been recorded,\" and they were-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":496.466,"endTime":496.716,"body":"That's cool"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":496.716,"endTime":499.507,"body":"... Beautiful! So think about that. God creates"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":499.507,"endTime":503.827,"body":"these amazing, beautiful fish nobody will see, but they're"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":503.827,"endTime":505.247,"body":"still intimately"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":505.846,"endTime":508.048,"body":"beautiful because God delights"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":508.706,"endTime":512.866,"body":"in really beautiful fish that maybe people will never see"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":512.866,"endTime":515.687,"body":"until we got the technology to go actually record them."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":515.687,"endTime":515.748,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":515.748,"endTime":518.726,"body":"That, to me, is the crazy thing about God, is"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":518.726,"endTime":523.206,"body":"he's decorating this home with all these elaborate"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":524.086,"endTime":527.886,"body":"gifts, like food just tasting amazing, and the more we learn"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":527.886,"endTime":530.648,"body":"about food, different combinations. He's, he's giving"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":530.648,"endTime":532.587,"body":"us visual sights,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":534.248,"endTime":537.447,"body":"sounds that are just amazing, and God does it because He"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":537.447,"endTime":540.947,"body":"absolutely delights in it. I mean, He loves it, and then, you"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":540.947,"endTime":544.268,"body":"know, Trinitarian theology is the Trinity wants to share that"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":544.268,"endTime":545.488,"body":"love with human beings-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":545.488,"endTime":545.866,"body":"That's right"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":545.866,"endTime":547.648,"body":"... The love that exists. So here's God"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":547.648,"endTime":550.408,"body":"saying, \"Ooh, ooh, let me show you this part of my home. Let me"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":550.408,"endTime":552.847,"body":"show you this part of your home.\" \"Oh, wait until you see"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":552.847,"endTime":555.048,"body":"this. It's gonna blow your mind.\" Then when you create"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":555.048,"endTime":556.528,"body":"microscopes,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":557.148,"endTime":560.648,"body":"you're gonna see how cells interact, and that's gonna blow"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":560.648,"endTime":566.008,"body":"your mind. So to me, this home is crazy elaborate, and that we"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":566.008,"endTime":568.288,"body":"need to receive it as a gift. We can talk about it in a second,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":568.288,"endTime":569.748,"body":"but then it also breaks your heart"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":570.307,"endTime":572.386,"body":"when God looks at what's happened to His home."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":572.386,"endTime":573.107,"body":"That's right."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":573.107,"endTime":575.736,"body":"Even the good gifts have been misused, right?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":575.736,"endTime":578.587,"body":"Technology that could help us actually now hurts us because"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":578.587,"endTime":581.967,"body":"it's been weaponized. So I don't doubt that there's also a sense"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":581.967,"endTime":586.187,"body":"where God's heart breaks when He looks at a fallen world, and"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":586.187,"endTime":590.727,"body":"sees what we've done to it. But to me, it's every intimate part"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":590.727,"endTime":592.268,"body":"of the world."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":592.866,"endTime":595.038,"body":"Art, I'm looking at your screensaver-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":595.038,"endTime":595.376,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":595.376,"endTime":596.097,"body":"... On your computer."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":596.097,"endTime":597.107,"body":"The back of my computer."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":597.107,"endTime":597.557,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":597.557,"endTime":597.567,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":597.567,"endTime":598.807,"body":"Which is what? It's, um-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":598.807,"endTime":599.886,"body":"It's van Gogh, Starry Night."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":599.886,"endTime":602.927,"body":"Yeah. I mean, that's God. Right? I mean, we"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":602.927,"endTime":605.528,"body":"could talk about the stars the rest of this podcast-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":605.528,"endTime":605.538,"body":"Sure"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":605.538,"endTime":607.408,"body":"... How elaborate and beautiful and"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":607.408,"endTime":611.148,"body":"amazing it is. So I need to receive that as a gift. What I"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":611.148,"endTime":614.768,"body":"got from Volf is I need to stop and recognize, even within the"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":614.768,"endTime":618.847,"body":"fallen-ness of the world, there are basic pleasures I probably"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":618.847,"endTime":620.048,"body":"take for granted."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":620.048,"endTime":620.626,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":620.626,"endTime":623.067,"body":"But I need to stop and say, \"Hey, this is"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":623.067,"endTime":625.086,"body":"awesome. I need to say thank you to God.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":625.086,"endTime":626.647,"body":"Now we'll come back to what it looks like, how"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":626.647,"endTime":630.647,"body":"we respond to it, but that whole metaphor is really pretty"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":630.647,"endTime":632.788,"body":"powerful. Like, you think about those fish that people didn't"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":632.788,"endTime":633.207,"body":"discover-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":633.207,"endTime":633.258,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":633.258,"endTime":635.607,"body":"... Until Jacques Cousteau. God had been"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":635.607,"endTime":639.386,"body":"getting glory and joy out of those fish-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":639.386,"endTime":639.817,"body":"I love that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":639.817,"endTime":641.028,"body":"... Before we came along."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":641.028,"endTime":641.427,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":641.427,"endTime":643.626,"body":"There are some fish we'll never explore,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":643.626,"endTime":646.467,"body":"certain galaxies in the depth of the universe."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":646.467,"endTime":647.268,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":647.268,"endTime":649.827,"body":"So we're tempted to say, \"Oh, God made all of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":649.827,"endTime":654.157,"body":"this for us,\" and it's like, okay, time out. This is... The"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":654.157,"endTime":656.447,"body":"story is about God, not about us."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":656.447,"endTime":657.107,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":657.107,"endTime":659.268,"body":"But He's inviting us-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":659.268,"endTime":659.397,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":659.397,"endTime":660.347,"body":"... Into-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":660.347,"endTime":660.447,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":660.447,"endTime":661.187,"body":"... His home-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":661.187,"endTime":661.386,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":661.386,"endTime":663.288,"body":"... To share it with Him."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":663.288,"endTime":663.827,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":663.827,"endTime":665.366,"body":"That's the important way to look at it."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":665.886,"endTime":669.886,"body":"Now, when I think about home, I asked Volf this question. I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":669.886,"endTime":673.587,"body":"said, \"For me, home, like, when I'm tired, I'm like, 'I just"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":673.587,"endTime":675.077,"body":"want to go home.' My family-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":675.077,"endTime":675.077,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":675.077,"endTime":676.967,"body":"... It brings... Like, if I'm on a trip, you and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":676.967,"endTime":677.616,"body":"I are traveling-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":677.616,"endTime":677.668,"body":"Yep"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":677.668,"endTime":678.107,"body":"... And I'm like-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":678.107,"endTime":678.147,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":678.147,"endTime":680.508,"body":"... I just can't count the [laughs] minutes until"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":680.508,"endTime":681.397,"body":"this plane lands-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":681.397,"endTime":683.048,"body":"Especially if you're going through LAX"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":683.048,"endTime":683.427,"body":"... And I'm home. Oh, [laughs]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":683.427,"endTime":684.807,"body":"Especially if you're going through LAX."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":684.807,"endTime":687.567,"body":"Yeah. That is a living hell-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":687.567,"endTime":687.847,"body":"Oh, come on"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":687.847,"endTime":688.477,"body":"... Sometimes."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":688.477,"endTime":688.508,"body":"Come on."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":688.508,"endTime":690.386,"body":"I avoid that at all expense."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":690.386,"endTime":690.407,"body":"I know."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":690.407,"endTime":691.897,"body":"But I'm just like, \"I just want to get home.\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":691.897,"endTime":691.897,"body":"I know. I want to get home."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":691.897,"endTime":693.807,"body":"'Cause it has such a warm-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":693.807,"endTime":693.827,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":693.827,"endTime":695.626,"body":"... Resonance with me-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":695.626,"endTime":695.636,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":695.636,"endTime":698.126,"body":"... Relationally, growing up. My dad"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":698.126,"endTime":700.227,"body":"did not have that experience. You know my dad."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":700.227,"endTime":700.258,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":700.258,"endTime":701.518,"body":"There was abuse that was there."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":701.518,"endTime":701.528,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":701.528,"endTime":702.418,"body":"There's alcoholism."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":702.418,"endTime":702.427,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":702.427,"endTime":704.386,"body":"So I was like, \"Why are we...\" I asked, you"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":704.386,"endTime":707.567,"body":"know, Dr. Volf, \"Why should we have this metaphor when for some"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":707.567,"endTime":708.957,"body":"people it's so painful?\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":709.467,"endTime":709.488,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":709.488,"endTime":712.907,"body":"And he said, \"But still there's a yearning"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":712.907,"endTime":715.738,"body":"for home. It's written inside of us.\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":715.738,"endTime":715.788,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":715.788,"endTime":719.748,"body":"So my father, out of that brokenness, built a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":719.748,"endTime":723.626,"body":"good home for, you know, my mom. Obviously, they did it together,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":723.626,"endTime":726.727,"body":"for my sisters, now for us grandkids. Like, there's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":726.727,"endTime":728.227,"body":"something inside of us"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":728.807,"endTime":731.528,"body":"that yearns for that home, and I even think of, like, photos,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":731.528,"endTime":734.5,"body":"interestingly enough.... And they show photos outside of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":734.5,"endTime":739.039,"body":"Earth, it kind of feels like, oh, I have this feeling of like"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":739.039,"endTime":740.24,"body":"home for that."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":740.24,"endTime":740.539,"body":"Oh, yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":740.539,"endTime":743.0,"body":"So I wonder if we'd shift that metaphor a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":743.0,"endTime":746.919,"body":"little bit, the way I treat my home, and obviously I respect"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":746.919,"endTime":748.688,"body":"somebody else's home [chuckles] I'm not gonna walk in-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":748.688,"endTime":748.688,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":748.688,"endTime":749.279,"body":"... And wreck it-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":749.279,"endTime":749.37,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":749.37,"endTime":751.099,"body":"... Out of care for them. But there's something"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":751.099,"endTime":753.139,"body":"about like, wow, this is my sacred space."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":753.139,"endTime":753.549,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":753.549,"endTime":756.979,"body":"And I care for that, and I clean it up, and I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":756.979,"endTime":761.779,"body":"fix it. What if we'd think about the world through the lens of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":761.779,"endTime":762.469,"body":"the home?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":762.469,"endTime":762.519,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":762.519,"endTime":764.879,"body":"I think it might shift the way"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":766.389,"endTime":769.938,"body":"it... Two things- It might shift the way we treat our home-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":769.938,"endTime":769.948,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":769.948,"endTime":772.74,"body":"... But second, the way others would perceive us"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":772.74,"endTime":776.698,"body":"in light of the comment you made earlier about how non-Christians"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":776.698,"endTime":779.099,"body":"often view believers."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":779.099,"endTime":783.458,"body":"Yeah, I mean, you wouldn't trash your home."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":783.458,"endTime":783.75,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":783.75,"endTime":785.599,"body":"Y- there's parts of your home that are even"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":785.599,"endTime":786.568,"body":"sacred. Like, there's cer-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":786.568,"endTime":787.539,"body":"Or something's wrong with you, right?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":787.539,"endTime":788.799,"body":"Yeah, there's something wrong with you. Or you"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":788.799,"endTime":791.109,"body":"just watched the Detroit Lions get beat by the-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":791.109,"endTime":791.12,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":791.12,"endTime":792.328,"body":"... Washington Commanders."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":792.328,"endTime":793.149,"body":"By the Chargers."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":793.149,"endTime":793.179,"body":"Come on!"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":793.179,"endTime":794.48,"body":"But keep going."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":794.48,"endTime":795.48,"body":"Oh, that was... Okay."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":796.078,"endTime":798.24,"body":"[clears throat] but there's certain things that kids have"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":798.24,"endTime":801.299,"body":"made that are irreplaceable. I mean, you can't go and- ... Buy"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":801.299,"endTime":803.679,"body":"them on Amazon Prime. I mean, these are things they made in"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":803.679,"endTime":806.799,"body":"second grade, and if a fire took them, they're, they're gone"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":806.799,"endTime":809.659,"body":"forever. So there's certain things in our home that are"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":809.659,"endTime":812.419,"body":"actually sacred to us, that we just treasure looking at"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":812.419,"endTime":814.679,"body":"those kind of things. Hey, I had one thought when you were"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":814.679,"endTime":816.12,"body":"talking about the home-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":816.12,"endTime":816.629,"body":"Yeah, come back to it"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":816.629,"endTime":819.039,"body":"... And God creating it, so and traveling."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":819.039,"endTime":822.828,"body":"So we have a dog, Raleigh, after Raleigh, North Carolina-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":822.828,"endTime":825.318,"body":"[laughing] ... 'cause all the kids who were born in Raleigh,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":825.318,"endTime":825.889,"body":"North Carolina-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":825.889,"endTime":825.889,"body":"So funny"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":825.889,"endTime":828.059,"body":"... Were diehard, Tar Heels. [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":828.74,"endTime":833.48,"body":"she's this crazy, COVID dog, that if you walk into the garage"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":833.48,"endTime":836.219,"body":"and just come back in, you've only been gone 30 seconds, she"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":836.219,"endTime":839.759,"body":"acts like you've been gone for a year, and she's so happy to see"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":839.759,"endTime":840.159,"body":"you."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":840.159,"endTime":840.399,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":840.399,"endTime":843.379,"body":"So coming home for me is, the tradition is,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":843.379,"endTime":846.0,"body":"when Noreen hears me pull up in the car, she opens the door-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":846.0,"endTime":846.009,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":846.009,"endTime":847.879,"body":"... And out comes Raleigh, running like a"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":847.879,"endTime":852.198,"body":"mad person to greet you, and it just makes me laugh, Sean, every"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":852.198,"endTime":856.48,"body":"single time to see Raleigh just coming at you. Isn't it wild to"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":856.48,"endTime":856.779,"body":"think"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":857.659,"endTime":860.799,"body":"that could be God? That there's things in our world that"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":860.799,"endTime":862.339,"body":"literally just make God laugh."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":863.198,"endTime":865.639,"body":"Like, He just looks at it and says, \"I... That's"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":866.859,"endTime":869.859,"body":"great,\" to see how people interact with each other-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":870.379,"endTime":872.98,"body":"... To see, to hear a joke,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":873.519,"endTime":876.659,"body":"to see parts of His world that just delight Him"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":877.438,"endTime":880.698,"body":"and really make Him smile, and that He enjoys... It's not just"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":880.698,"endTime":885.0,"body":"for us. He enjoys the world as well, and it's kind of"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":885.0,"endTime":888.399,"body":"interesting for me to think He could look at a great piece of"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":888.399,"endTime":890.198,"body":"artwork and go, \"Oh,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":891.059,"endTime":894.679,"body":"that's really good.\" \"I really think that's beautiful.\" So this"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":894.679,"endTime":898.259,"body":"idea of co-delighting in the world with God, I think, is also"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":898.259,"endTime":901.559,"body":"very important, that God loves,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":903.379,"endTime":907.759,"body":"the way food tastes, the beauty of a sunset, that He would enjoy"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":907.759,"endTime":910.24,"body":"that, and it's not just us enjoying it, but He's enjoying"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":910.24,"endTime":911.099,"body":"it with us, I think is"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":911.818,"endTime":912.5,"body":"a cool thought."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":912.5,"endTime":914.98,"body":"And it, you know, I think of like classic,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":914.98,"endTime":917.509,"body":"often bring it back to The Matrix, when they discover what-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":917.509,"endTime":917.73,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":917.73,"endTime":920.519,"body":"... Their real home is. It's like the food is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":920.519,"endTime":920.818,"body":"like"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":921.339,"endTime":924.328,"body":"oatmeal. There's nothing aesthetically pleasing."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":924.328,"endTime":924.339,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":924.339,"endTime":927.309,"body":"It's just reality is painful."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":927.309,"endTime":927.318,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":927.318,"endTime":929.679,"body":"Well, some of that can be the effects of sin,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":929.679,"endTime":932.438,"body":"but God didn't have to make a world with taste buds."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":932.438,"endTime":932.799,"body":"No!"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":932.799,"endTime":933.669,"body":"God didn't have to-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":933.669,"endTime":933.669,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":933.669,"endTime":935.839,"body":"... Make a world as beautiful as He did."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":935.839,"endTime":935.98,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":935.98,"endTime":938.599,"body":"Well, what do we do in our home? We make our home"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":938.599,"endTime":939.078,"body":"beautiful-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":939.078,"endTime":939.089,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":939.089,"endTime":941.159,"body":"... As much as we can, right? We put artwork"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":941.159,"endTime":941.328,"body":"up."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":941.328,"endTime":941.339,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":941.339,"endTime":944.698,"body":"We put pictures up. We put things that mean"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":944.698,"endTime":946.049,"body":"something to create the aura."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":946.049,"endTime":946.059,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":946.059,"endTime":947.328,"body":"Well, God has made a home"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":947.958,"endTime":950.519,"body":"that is beautiful and good,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":951.299,"endTime":953.318,"body":"and I thought of, you know, Genesis 1, you mentioned this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":953.318,"endTime":953.879,"body":"earlier,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":954.619,"endTime":957.839,"body":"you know, what could God mean by calling creation very good? This"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":957.839,"endTime":959.119,"body":"is in Volf's piece."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":959.119,"endTime":959.839,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":959.839,"endTime":961.919,"body":"He says, \"Good in what sense?\" So it could be"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":961.919,"endTime":965.019,"body":"aesthetically good, so it's beautiful. It could be"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":965.019,"endTime":968.279,"body":"functionally good. It could be morally good. But I don't know"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":968.279,"endTime":970.749,"body":"that I'd thought of it in the way he framed it here. He said,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":970.749,"endTime":975.639,"body":"\"There's another sense of good, call it existential.\" \"A kind of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":975.639,"endTime":978.679,"body":"goodness which cannot be lost and of which there cannot be"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":978.679,"endTime":984.059,"body":"more or less. When a wanted child is born, the immense joy"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":984.059,"endTime":988.119,"body":"of many parents often renders them mute, but their radiant"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":988.119,"endTime":992.359,"body":"faces speak of surprised delight- ... As if they were"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":992.359,"endTime":997.438,"body":"saying, 'Just look at you. It is so very good that you are"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":997.438,"endTime":997.839,"body":"here.'\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":997.839,"endTime":998.619,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":998.619,"endTime":999.21,"body":"Like, as a-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":999.21,"endTime":999.21,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":999.21,"endTime":1001.24,"body":"... Parent, how many times do we look over a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1001.24,"endTime":1002.029,"body":"crib?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1002.029,"endTime":1002.078,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1002.078,"endTime":1004.46,"body":"I remember when my wife was pregnant, a math"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1004.46,"endTime":1007.339,"body":"teacher who's passed away, Mr. Nick, he goes, \"You're gonna"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1007.339,"endTime":1009.48,"body":"have this moment where you look over your crib, and you're in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1009.48,"endTime":1011.119,"body":"awe.\" And I remember going, \"Okay, I don't know what you're"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1011.119,"endTime":1011.769,"body":"talking about.\" [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1011.769,"endTime":1011.929,"body":"Yeah. [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1011.929,"endTime":1012.938,"body":"And then you have a kid, and you're like-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1012.938,"endTime":1013.099,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1013.659,"endTime":1014.5,"body":"... \"Oh, my gosh.\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1014.5,"endTime":1014.568,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1014.568,"endTime":1015.359,"body":"\"It's beautiful.\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1015.359,"endTime":1015.429,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1015.429,"endTime":1016.849,"body":"\"It's amazing.\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1016.849,"endTime":1016.879,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1016.879,"endTime":1019.399,"body":"That's like a glimpse of God looking at"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1019.399,"endTime":1023.318,"body":"creation saying, \"It's good. It's very good.\" And then he"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1023.318,"endTime":1026.019,"body":"says, one more thing, he says, \"The delight precedes any"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1026.019,"endTime":1028.46,"body":"judgment about the beauty, functionality, or moral"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1028.46,"endTime":1031.96,"body":"rectitude of the child.\" by the way, I love the word moral"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1031.96,"endTime":1032.69,"body":"rectitude. [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1032.69,"endTime":1032.699,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1032.699,"endTime":1034.519,"body":"By the way, I just gotta pause. He goes, \"The"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1034.519,"endTime":1037.759,"body":"child's sheer existence, the mere fact of it,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1038.378,"endTime":1043.078,"body":"is very good. That's what I propose God, too, exclaimed,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1043.078,"endTime":1044.5,"body":"looking at the newborn"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1045.078,"endTime":1050.25,"body":"world. Some unconditional love grounds creation's existence.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1051.4,"endTime":1053.92,"body":"That's powerful. That's a take-home one to me."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1054.679,"endTime":1057.0,"body":"So we need to receive this. We need to slow"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1057.0,"endTime":1062.119,"body":"down long enough to receive it as a gift, and to savor it. So"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1062.119,"endTime":1065.339,"body":"I took this one class, Sean. I for- man, I even forget"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1065.339,"endTime":1067.9,"body":"what the class was. It was in my master's. It was a long time"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1067.9,"endTime":1071.94,"body":"ago, but it was about play, human play, and she did this"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1071.94,"endTime":1076.48,"body":"thing. She gave us three M\u0026M's. The... It was a three-hour block"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1076.48,"endTime":1079.579,"body":"class, like a lot of grad classes are, so three hours, you"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1079.579,"endTime":1082.98,"body":"get three M\u0026M's, and she goes, \"I want you to savor these three"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1082.98,"endTime":1084.99,"body":"M\u0026M's. Like, make them last the three hours.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1084.99,"endTime":1085.48,"body":"[chuckles] Wow."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1085.48,"endTime":1087.279,"body":"And I'm... You know, normally I'd take those"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1087.279,"endTime":1090.699,"body":"three, pop them in, we're done, right? \"But, Sean, put it in"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1090.699,"endTime":1095.087,"body":"your mouth and just savor it.\"... Not like eat 15 of them,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1095.087,"endTime":1099.127,"body":"but just savor one, was a really interesting experience to get"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1099.127,"endTime":1101.448,"body":"the full experience of an M\u0026M."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1101.448,"endTime":1101.528,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1101.528,"endTime":1104.107,"body":"And David Turner, he helped run this"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1104.107,"endTime":1107.488,"body":"Bold Seminar, he passed out these really little flowers one"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1107.488,"endTime":1110.948,"body":"day, and we just sat there, all 15 of us- ... And he said,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1110.948,"endTime":1113.788,"body":"\"I just want you to focus on this flower and enjoy the"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1113.788,"endTime":1118.327,"body":"flower. Like, savor the flower.\" And then a friend of ours, Liz"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1118.327,"endTime":1123.107,"body":"Hall, she said she has a Jewish friend, who would, when he"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1123.107,"endTime":1125.928,"body":"would see a beautiful sunrise, would say, \"I'm sorry, I just"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1125.928,"endTime":1126.728,"body":"need to stop."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1127.268,"endTime":1131.928,"body":"I want to savor this and offer a prayer of thankfulness"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1132.688,"endTime":1137.147,"body":"and praise to God for the sunset.\" And I thought, \"Wow, I"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1137.147,"endTime":1141.208,"body":"seldom do that!\" Like, I might think that sunset is beautiful,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1141.208,"endTime":1144.147,"body":"but I don't think I stop to savor as much as I possibly"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1144.147,"endTime":1146.847,"body":"could. That could be a really interesting practice in our"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1146.847,"endTime":1151.428,"body":"lives, to savor the really good times. Because the bad times are"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1151.428,"endTime":1155.228,"body":"there, it'd be ridiculous not to acknowledge the fallen-ness. But"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1155.228,"endTime":1158.488,"body":"to savor the really good moments, I think, are,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1159.347,"endTime":1162.587,"body":"really important. Remember, James says, \"Every good gift,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1162.587,"endTime":1166.248,"body":"every good gift is from God.\" So we need to receive these moments"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1166.248,"endTime":1170.948,"body":"as gifts from God, and to savor them, and then express thanks."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1170.948,"endTime":1172.968,"body":"So we're shifting now from recognizing"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1172.968,"endTime":1175.907,"body":"what does it mean that the creation is our home?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1176.627,"endTime":1180.867,"body":"God made it so he could dwell relationally with us."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1180.867,"endTime":1181.327,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1181.327,"endTime":1183.448,"body":"Made the home with what we might call"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1183.448,"endTime":1184.768,"body":"superfluous things-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1184.768,"endTime":1184.778,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1184.778,"endTime":1186.468,"body":"... That are just not necessary."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1186.468,"endTime":1187.147,"body":"Right, yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1187.147,"endTime":1189.847,"body":"Like little, small, beautiful flowers."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1189.847,"endTime":1190.067,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1190.067,"endTime":1192.417,"body":"Savoring the taste of coffee or-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1192.417,"endTime":1192.417,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1192.417,"endTime":1193.958,"body":"... Like swordfish, as random as that is."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1193.958,"endTime":1195.147,"body":"[laughing] I love swordfish-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1195.147,"endTime":1195.397,"body":"[laughing] I love-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1195.397,"endTime":1196.248,"body":"... Or strawberries."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1196.938,"endTime":1197.627,"body":"Swordfish is great."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1197.627,"endTime":1198.587,"body":"It's one of my favorites."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1198.587,"endTime":1199.147,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1199.147,"endTime":1201.728,"body":"Like, those are superfluous things that we would"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1201.728,"endTime":1203.228,"body":"consider blessings"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1204.147,"endTime":1207.948,"body":"that God has given us, and the response is, how should we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1207.948,"endTime":1210.307,"body":"respond to that blessing?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1210.307,"endTime":1210.688,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1210.688,"endTime":1213.248,"body":"And one way is to appreciate it."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1213.248,"endTime":1213.688,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1213.688,"endTime":1215.807,"body":"I mean, if I give a gift to my kids... And"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1215.807,"endTime":1217.827,"body":"it's interesting, back to something you said before, you"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1217.827,"endTime":1219.647,"body":"talked about, like, in a home, there are certain things that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1219.647,"endTime":1220.768,"body":"are irreplaceable."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1220.768,"endTime":1221.428,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1221.428,"endTime":1224.047,"body":"If I make something myself and give it to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1224.047,"endTime":1228.847,"body":"somebody, it means more than just buying something-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1228.847,"endTime":1229.038,"body":"Yes, yes!"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1229.038,"endTime":1230.238,"body":"... And giving it to them."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1230.238,"endTime":1230.627,"body":"Yes, yes."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1230.627,"endTime":1232.988,"body":"Because our thoughtfulness goes into it. The"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1232.988,"endTime":1238.268,"body":"time went into it. The personalization went into it,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1238.268,"endTime":1243.188,"body":"and it makes it that much more valuable and meaningful. And so"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1243.188,"endTime":1246.768,"body":"this world has a lot of superfluous things in it-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1246.768,"endTime":1247.067,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1247.067,"endTime":1248.907,"body":"... That are uniquely made. Now, I think"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1248.907,"endTime":1251.367,"body":"there's certain joy that animals get. You described your dog,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1251.367,"endTime":1252.018,"body":"Riley, before."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1252.018,"endTime":1252.028,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1252.028,"endTime":1254.587,"body":"Like, that's a part of God's blessing in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1254.587,"endTime":1255.228,"body":"creation."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1255.228,"endTime":1256.077,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1256.077,"endTime":1258.948,"body":"But what should our response be-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1258.948,"endTime":1258.958,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1258.958,"endTime":1260.147,"body":"... To these kinds of blessings you're"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1260.147,"endTime":1265.327,"body":"describing? Well, one is not to abuse them. That's where sin"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1265.327,"endTime":1265.857,"body":"comes in-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1265.857,"endTime":1265.857,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1265.857,"endTime":1267.647,"body":"... Taking something good and-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1267.647,"endTime":1269.107,"body":"Garbaging the world."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1269.107,"endTime":1269.867,"body":"Garbaging the world."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1269.867,"endTime":1271.448,"body":"It's that, it's that phrase that was used. It"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1271.448,"endTime":1271.688,"body":"was,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1272.567,"endTime":1273.468,"body":"You have the book right here."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1273.468,"endTime":1273.988,"body":"Is it the one-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1273.988,"endTime":1275.107,"body":"Rosa. It was Rosa."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1275.107,"endTime":1277.028,"body":"The Uncon- she describes garbaging the world."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1277.028,"endTime":1277.238,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1277.238,"endTime":1277.248,"body":"So-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1277.248,"endTime":1279.928,"body":"Which is, I use, I use it. It's for me. I use it"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1279.928,"endTime":1282.887,"body":"up. I take, I take, 50 M\u0026M's-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1282.887,"endTime":1283.367,"body":"There you go"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1283.367,"endTime":1285.008,"body":"... And maybe I only eat 30."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1285.008,"endTime":1286.336,"body":"Which is overconsumption-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1286.336,"endTime":1286.718,"body":"Over... Yeah, yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1286.718,"endTime":1288.508,"body":"... Which we as Americans have down-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1288.508,"endTime":1289.028,"body":"Yeah, yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1289.028,"endTime":1289.647,"body":"... Pat."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1289.647,"endTime":1289.948,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1289.948,"endTime":1292.288,"body":"Right? So one, you know, one way is to just"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1292.288,"endTime":1294.208,"body":"abuse something that's good, and that's what-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1294.208,"endTime":1294.357,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1294.357,"endTime":1295.317,"body":"... All sin is."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1295.317,"endTime":1295.347,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1295.347,"endTime":1296.508,"body":"That's what all ugliness-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1296.508,"endTime":1296.518,"body":"Yeah, yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1296.518,"endTime":1298.587,"body":"... Is taking something good and turning it"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1298.587,"endTime":1300.708,"body":"bad, or beautiful and making it ugly."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1300.708,"endTime":1301.228,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1301.228,"endTime":1304.048,"body":"But we're also supposed to enjoy it."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1304.048,"endTime":1304.468,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1304.468,"endTime":1305.998,"body":"Like, God gave us that flower"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1306.528,"endTime":1307.127,"body":"to stop"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1307.647,"endTime":1310.728,"body":"and enjoy. He gave us beautiful music-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1310.728,"endTime":1311.238,"body":"Yeah, yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1311.238,"endTime":1312.688,"body":"... To stop and enjoy."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1312.688,"endTime":1315.248,"body":"And made it for you. That's such a- that was an"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1315.248,"endTime":1317.538,"body":"interesting comment you said, \"Made it for you.\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1318.528,"endTime":1320.788,"body":"So let me tell you a story. I'm like your dad. I came from an"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1320.788,"endTime":1324.087,"body":"abusive home. It was horrible. It was really bad. Physical"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1324.087,"endTime":1327.288,"body":"abuse, verbal abuse. And we didn't have any money. My"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1327.288,"endTime":1329.228,"body":"parents hid it from us, Sean."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1329.228,"endTime":1330.008,"body":"Like, physically hid it from you? [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1330.008,"endTime":1331.988,"body":"Yeah, we did not have money."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1331.988,"endTime":1332.008,"body":"[laughing] What's happening?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1332.008,"endTime":1334.448,"body":"But they hid it from us, and you know how I"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1334.448,"endTime":1337.807,"body":"found out eventually? I had two older brothers. We wrestled"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1337.807,"endTime":1339.627,"body":"nonstop, and we all had glasses."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1339.627,"endTime":1339.768,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1339.768,"endTime":1341.948,"body":"Very young, we all had glasses. So I looked at"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1341.948,"endTime":1345.347,"body":"all my, like, you know, like, junior high pictures. It's duct"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1345.347,"endTime":1346.228,"body":"tape-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1346.228,"endTime":1346.438,"body":"Oh, my goodness"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1346.438,"endTime":1347.958,"body":"... On one arm, and my glasses"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1347.958,"endTime":1348.357,"body":"Are sideways [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1348.357,"endTime":1350.367,"body":"... Like, turned sideways. And I would say to my"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1350.367,"endTime":1354.367,"body":"mom, \"Mom, why do I have duct tape on my glasses?\" My mom"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1354.367,"endTime":1356.567,"body":"later said, \" 'Cause we couldn't afford to get your glasses"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1356.567,"endTime":1356.907,"body":"fixed.\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1357.647,"endTime":1361.048,"body":"Okay, so a, well, embarrassing moment for my dad."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1361.048,"endTime":1365.387,"body":"We go to Kmart, and there's a sale on these toy guns, toy"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1365.387,"endTime":1369.647,"body":"rifles. And it's a great price. So my dad, very"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1369.647,"endTime":1373.167,"body":"uncharacteristically, says, \"Each one of you get one.\" We're"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1373.167,"endTime":1376.208,"body":"like, \"Oh, this is awesome!\" Right? So we got our guns. We go"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1376.208,"endTime":1378.887,"body":"up to the cash register, and he's misread"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1379.587,"endTime":1380.528,"body":"the price."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1380.528,"endTime":1380.627,"body":"Oh, no."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1380.627,"endTime":1381.948,"body":"It was something above it."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1381.948,"endTime":1381.988,"body":"Oh, goodness."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1381.988,"endTime":1383.988,"body":"It wasn't the actual guns. Well, he couldn't"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1383.988,"endTime":1386.097,"body":"afford one, let alone three."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1386.097,"endTime":1386.127,"body":"Oh!"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1386.127,"endTime":1389.167,"body":"So he turns to us and he says, \"Put 'em back.\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1389.167,"endTime":1392.708,"body":"You can imagine our immature response. \"Dad, you said! You"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1392.708,"endTime":1393.387,"body":"said!\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1393.387,"endTime":1393.837,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1393.837,"endTime":1395.468,"body":"And so he- but he said, \"Put 'em back,\" and he"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1395.468,"endTime":1396.678,"body":"got really upset, okay?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1397.428,"endTime":1401.728,"body":"Two days later, at his factory in Detroit, he took wood,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1402.488,"endTime":1406.367,"body":"and in his off hours, carved wooden rifles-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1406.367,"endTime":1406.907,"body":"Amazing"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1406.907,"endTime":1408.948,"body":"... And brought them home and gave it to us."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1408.948,"endTime":1411.827,"body":"Now, when I first got it, Sean, I was a little bit like, \"What?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1411.827,"endTime":1413.798,"body":"A wooden rifle compared to the one at Kmart?\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1413.798,"endTime":1415.327,"body":"Yeah, like, \"I want that one.\" Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1415.327,"endTime":1417.938,"body":"But later, it became more precious. Like,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1417.938,"endTime":1421.127,"body":"\"That's something my dad made for me,\" and my initials were on"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1421.127,"endTime":1422.248,"body":"the, handle of the rifle."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1422.248,"endTime":1423.327,"body":"Oh, that's very cool."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1423.327,"endTime":1425.018,"body":"That's, that's interesting to think-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1425.018,"endTime":1427.087,"body":"Do you still have that, or probably not?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1427.087,"endTime":1428.518,"body":"I think it's at my mom's. I hope it's at my"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1428.518,"endTime":1428.548,"body":"mom's."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1428.548,"endTime":1430.607,"body":"That'd be a cool thing to hang on to."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1430.607,"endTime":1432.477,"body":"But that was... I mean, to me, that's like,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1432.477,"endTime":1434.778,"body":"\"Hey, I made this. I didn't buy it at Kmart.\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1435.288,"endTime":1438.107,"body":"Nothing wrong with that. \"But I made this specifically for you"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1438.107,"endTime":1441.968,"body":"in my off hours.\" and to think our bodies are that. I mean, we"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1441.968,"endTime":1444.367,"body":"know that from Psalm 139, right? He- the-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1445.028,"endTime":1447.887,"body":"... The psalmist uses language like a master weaver"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1449.147,"endTime":1453.847,"body":"crafting you, and I think we can say our bodies, even though"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1453.847,"endTime":1457.867,"body":"falling and, you know, slowly degenerating, are a gift God"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1457.867,"endTime":1461.208,"body":"gives to us, and we should enjoy our bodies, certainly, as we"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1461.208,"endTime":1461.667,"body":"can."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1463.617,"endTime":1465.457,"body":"... You know, it's interesting to kinda, to,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1465.457,"endTime":1468.877,"body":"to shift towards asking the question how the church"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1469.637,"endTime":1471.477,"body":"views brokenness-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1471.477,"endTime":1471.957,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1471.957,"endTime":1474.877,"body":"-and views goodness. So, so far we've been"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1474.877,"endTime":1478.137,"body":"talking about, like, God has made this creation for us. I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1478.137,"endTime":1480.867,"body":"love that story that your dad, like, personalized it."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1480.867,"endTime":1480.897,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1480.897,"endTime":1481.038,"body":"So"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1481.577,"endTime":1482.817,"body":"the flowers are for"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1483.457,"endTime":1486.298,"body":"everybody, but they're for you, and they're for me-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1486.298,"endTime":1486.327,"body":"Yeah, yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1487.077,"endTime":1490.178,"body":"... To enjoy. And yet, clearly the world is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1490.178,"endTime":1491.657,"body":"also broken."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1491.657,"endTime":1492.157,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1492.157,"endTime":1494.857,"body":"Right? I've had two conversations in the past"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1494.857,"endTime":1497.077,"body":"week that have just been running through my mind,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1497.857,"endTime":1502.498,"body":"and YouTube conversations, and with, like, Peter Singer-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1502.498,"endTime":1502.518,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1502.518,"endTime":1504.637,"body":"... Literally one of the leading ethicist-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1504.637,"endTime":1504.928,"body":"Amazing, yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1504.928,"endTime":1506.957,"body":"... Ful, influential philosophers in the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1506.957,"endTime":1507.597,"body":"world."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1507.597,"endTime":1508.077,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1508.077,"endTime":1509.557,"body":"Outspoken atheist."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1509.557,"endTime":1510.278,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1510.278,"endTime":1512.936,"body":"And his issue was problem of evil."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1512.936,"endTime":1513.936,"body":"Mm-hmm. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1513.936,"endTime":1516.597,"body":"Todd McFarlane, who is a comic creator. He"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1516.597,"endTime":1520.087,"body":"co-created Venom. He was the creator of,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1520.817,"endTime":1524.577,"body":"Spawn. Really influential. The way he draws Spider-Man, I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1524.577,"endTime":1526.847,"body":"absolutely love it. I have so many of the comics. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1526.847,"endTime":1529.696,"body":"We met him in person. He signed some of the comics for me. But"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1529.696,"endTime":1533.237,"body":"he leaned in and was like, \"The problem of evil-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1533.237,"endTime":1533.327,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1533.327,"endTime":1535.377,"body":"... I will never believe in God.\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1535.377,"endTime":1535.487,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1536.237,"endTime":1538.577,"body":"So clearly, we have a choice, just like you had"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1538.577,"endTime":1540.998,"body":"a choice when your father gave you that gun. Am I going to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1540.998,"endTime":1542.387,"body":"receive this-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1542.387,"endTime":1542.387,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1542.387,"endTime":1544.137,"body":"... As a gift or not?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1544.137,"endTime":1544.696,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1544.696,"endTime":1547.077,"body":"Like, we have a choice if we see the goodness in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1547.077,"endTime":1547.637,"body":"creation"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1548.237,"endTime":1551.337,"body":"or if we see the brokenness in creation, but the reality,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1551.337,"endTime":1554.538,"body":"there's both, and I think this is what we have to keep in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1554.538,"endTime":1557.657,"body":"balance, and we'll maybe come back to how to do this. But I'd"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1557.657,"endTime":1560.597,"body":"just be curious from kind of a 30,000-foot view, and by the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1560.597,"endTime":1562.737,"body":"way, before I ask it, just Christian worldview is like"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1562.737,"endTime":1565.778,"body":"creation, fall, redemption-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1565.778,"endTime":1565.867,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1565.867,"endTime":1567.278,"body":"... And glorification. So we've been"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1567.278,"endTime":1570.397,"body":"talking about creation. Of course, the fall, Genesis 3,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1570.397,"endTime":1573.057,"body":"messes everything up until Revelation, we get to the last"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1573.057,"endTime":1573.936,"body":"two chapters."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1573.936,"endTime":1574.597,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1574.597,"endTime":1576.617,"body":"Do you think the church errs on the side"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1577.298,"endTime":1582.436,"body":"of emphasizing the goodness of creation or its brokenness?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1582.436,"endTime":1584.678,"body":"Well, I... Well, and this is my experience,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1584.678,"endTime":1587.837,"body":"obviously, anecdotal. I think it's the brokenness. I think"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1587.837,"endTime":1590.717,"body":"we're the brokenness people. The world's a mess. People are"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1590.717,"endTime":1591.957,"body":"sinful."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1593.278,"endTime":1596.737,"body":"We're often seen as negative people."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1598.258,"endTime":1602.436,"body":"And I think we have to do better than that. I think"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1602.436,"endTime":1605.417,"body":"within the brokenness, we have to point out the beauty that is"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1605.417,"endTime":1608.397,"body":"still there, even within the brokenness. Now, ultimately,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1608.397,"endTime":1611.337,"body":"Jesus can only fix the brokenness, but He's given us"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1611.337,"endTime":1614.478,"body":"really good gifts. So I was writing... I wrote this down,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1614.478,"endTime":1616.397,"body":"and you're probably gonna remember it, Sean. Remember"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1616.397,"endTime":1621.597,"body":"during the pandemic, actor John Krasinski, he did this great,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1621.597,"endTime":1625.357,"body":"from his home, he did, he put on a show called Some Good News?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1625.998,"endTime":1628.367,"body":"Do you remember that from The Office? John-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1628.367,"endTime":1629.538,"body":"Probably missed that one. [laughs]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1629.538,"endTime":1629.897,"body":"Oh, no!"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1629.897,"endTime":1630.978,"body":"Sorry, man."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1631.597,"endTime":1631.846,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1631.846,"endTime":1633.228,"body":"Sean, it was our favorite!"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1633.228,"endTime":1633.258,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1633.258,"endTime":1635.317,"body":"So here's what he did. D- when it was"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1635.317,"endTime":1637.357,"body":"raging, and all of us were losing our minds-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1637.357,"endTime":1637.457,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1637.457,"endTime":1639.337,"body":"... With the pandemic, like, seriously, how"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1639.337,"endTime":1640.678,"body":"bad is this gonna get?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1640.678,"endTime":1641.057,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1641.057,"endTime":1642.387,"body":"People were missing their,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1643.337,"endTime":1646.867,"body":"proms. They were missing graduations. I had two kids miss"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1646.867,"endTime":1647.737,"body":"graduations."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1647.737,"endTime":1648.597,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1648.597,"endTime":1650.748,"body":"He would share stories that were sent to him,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1650.748,"endTime":1653.077,"body":"and it was called Some Good News. In the midst of a"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1653.077,"endTime":1653.807,"body":"pandemic-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1653.807,"endTime":1654.196,"body":"Oh, gotcha"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1654.196,"endTime":1655.508,"body":"... Some Good News."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1655.508,"endTime":1655.577,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1655.577,"endTime":1658.038,"body":"And he would show a dad who converted his"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1658.038,"endTime":1661.337,"body":"living room into a high school gym with... And then he w- he"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1661.337,"endTime":1665.678,"body":"had a tux, and his daughter was dressed in her prom dress, and"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1665.678,"endTime":1667.957,"body":"he would dance with her in the living room, right? Making the"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1667.957,"endTime":1671.737,"body":"best of a really bad situation. I think the church should do"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1671.737,"endTime":1674.798,"body":"that a little bit more. I think we should say, \"Listen, in the"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1674.798,"endTime":1680.478,"body":"midst of all the craziness you can watch 24/7 on social media,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1680.478,"endTime":1682.998,"body":"here are some good news.\" And the good news isn't just"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1682.998,"endTime":1687.237,"body":"spiritual. The good news is, in the midst of all this, the sun"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1687.237,"endTime":1690.457,"body":"is... A sunrise is still spectacular."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1691.018,"endTime":1694.817,"body":"Friendships are really important. God's common grace is"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1694.817,"endTime":1697.737,"body":"real. Like, yeah, there's disease. There's also"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1697.737,"endTime":1702.498,"body":"penicillin, and God gets blamed for all the bad. He never gets"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1702.498,"endTime":1702.987,"body":"credit for all"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1703.498,"endTime":1705.897,"body":"the good things. Like, we'd be in the Dark Ages without"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1705.897,"endTime":1709.057,"body":"penicillin. And if you know the history of penicillin, it's"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1709.057,"endTime":1713.837,"body":"fascinating. One medical history book called it, \"The greatest"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1713.837,"endTime":1715.577,"body":"serendipitous moment-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1715.577,"endTime":1715.957,"body":"Huh"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1715.957,"endTime":1718.217,"body":"... In the history of medicine,\" is the guy"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1718.217,"endTime":1722.538,"body":"Fleming, who discovered penicillin totally by accident."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1722.538,"endTime":1724.386,"body":"Wasn't there, like, bacteria on-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1724.386,"endTime":1724.386,"body":"Yeah, yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1724.386,"endTime":1724.407,"body":"... Some, like, dish?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1724.407,"endTime":1725.278,"body":"He went on vacation."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1725.278,"endTime":1725.857,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1725.857,"endTime":1726.028,"body":"Oh, oh, yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1726.028,"endTime":1726.137,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1726.137,"endTime":1728.397,"body":"He went on vacation, came back, didn't"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1728.397,"endTime":1729.917,"body":"clean all of his Petri dishes."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1729.917,"endTime":1730.317,"body":"[chuckles] Okay."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1730.317,"endTime":1735.117,"body":"Some of them had fungus growing, some didn't, and"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1735.117,"endTime":1737.998,"body":"some had half. He said, \"Well, that's really weird. Like, why"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1737.998,"endTime":1741.757,"body":"only half?\" And he wrote a paper, presented it to, like, a"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1741.757,"endTime":1744.917,"body":"handful of people, and then it was buried. It wasn't until"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1744.917,"endTime":1747.717,"body":"World War II, when British soldiers were dying in the"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1747.717,"endTime":1748.647,"body":"trenches-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1748.647,"endTime":1748.647,"body":"Huh"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1748.647,"endTime":1752.288,"body":"... Of disease, that this one British medical,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1752.288,"endTime":1755.657,"body":"researcher was tasked with, \"Go find something to save our"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1755.657,"endTime":1759.877,"body":"soldiers from dying from disease.\" He finds the paper,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1759.877,"endTime":1763.458,"body":"and he's g- he's like, \"Oh, my goodness, this is... What?\" And,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1763.458,"endTime":1765.877,"body":"within months, it's being mass-produced in the United"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1765.877,"endTime":1770.257,"body":"States and in Britain, saving millions of lives. So even in"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1770.257,"endTime":1772.958,"body":"the fallen-ness, God is saying, \"Look, here are good gifts I"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1772.958,"endTime":1776.857,"body":"give you,\" tol- all the time- ... All the time, all the time."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1776.857,"endTime":1779.998,"body":"I think that's really important for us to stop and say, \"God,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1779.998,"endTime":1784.518,"body":"sometimes this world is really hard,\" but thank God, in the"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1784.518,"endTime":1786.038,"body":"midst of cancer-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1786.778,"endTime":1789.696,"body":"... We ha- which my wife had a cancer scare, you know, we have"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1789.696,"endTime":1792.757,"body":"oncology. We have people who have dedicated their entire"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1792.757,"endTime":1797.298,"body":"lives to the study of cancer. We have radiation, chemotherapy. So"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1797.298,"endTime":1800.737,"body":"God hasn't abandoned this world. He continues to give us good"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1800.737,"endTime":1801.048,"body":"gifts."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1801.958,"endTime":1803.167,"body":"It really is interesting. I wish there were"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1803.167,"endTime":1805.757,"body":"some study that was done, I don't know how they would do it,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1805.757,"endTime":1811.717,"body":"on, like, social media, books, pulpits, conversations, what"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1811.717,"endTime":1814.257,"body":"Christians emphasize more so than others."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1814.257,"endTime":1814.268,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1814.268,"endTime":1815.577,"body":"And maybe there's a different... Certain"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1815.577,"endTime":1817.357,"body":"denominations might be different."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1817.357,"endTime":1817.837,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1817.837,"endTime":1821.097,"body":"Maybe areas in which you grow up. My parents"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1821.097,"endTime":1824.278,"body":"were not this way. My dad's, like, the consummate optimist-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1824.278,"endTime":1824.498,"body":"Always ready"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1824.498,"endTime":1827.257,"body":"... So he's always seeing the positive, but"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1827.257,"endTime":1829.897,"body":"very aware of the brokenness in the world."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1829.897,"endTime":1830.557,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1830.557,"endTime":1832.621,"body":"And so I don't know, I-... My"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1832.621,"endTime":1839.021,"body":"suspicion is, of the two, we lean probably more heavily into"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1839.021,"endTime":1844.221,"body":"critical, calling out sin- judging, and there is a time and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1844.221,"endTime":1845.881,"body":"place for that-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1845.881,"endTime":1846.231,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1846.231,"endTime":1848.141,"body":"... Than there is recognizing the good. And I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1848.141,"endTime":1851.182,"body":"might, I might get some more criticism just for this one, but"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1851.182,"endTime":1854.041,"body":"I [chuckles] Taylor Swift, I didn't think that was gonna come"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1854.041,"endTime":1854.281,"body":"up."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1854.281,"endTime":1854.501,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1854.501,"endTime":1856.481,"body":"I don't even know a lot of her music, but my"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1856.481,"endTime":1859.682,"body":"son helps me with social media, and he goes, he goes, \"Dad, at"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1859.682,"endTime":1862.781,"body":"this point, she dropped a new album. Give your thoughts.\" You"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1862.781,"endTime":1865.601,"body":"know, and they were celebrating it, and it's all scripted. And"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1865.601,"endTime":1870.601,"body":"all I s- all I said was, I go, \"It's incredible how much she"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1870.601,"endTime":1871.401,"body":"gets done."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1872.061,"endTime":1875.141,"body":"I don't know how she does it.\" Like, she... And then she talks"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1875.141,"endTime":1876.661,"body":"about loving what she did."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1876.661,"endTime":1877.182,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1877.182,"endTime":1879.661,"body":"I said, \"What an example of how much you can"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1879.661,"endTime":1883.422,"body":"accomplish if you just find something that you love.\" Like,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1883.422,"endTime":1886.021,"body":"that was it. Like, that was, that was the point. That was my"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1886.021,"endTime":1890.561,"body":"takeaway. Some people just lost their minds. I got emails, \"How"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1890.561,"endTime":1892.58,"body":"can you promote this?\" And, \"What's wrong with you?\" And I'm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1892.58,"endTime":1894.621,"body":"just thinking, \"We're so quick-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1894.621,"endTime":1895.551,"body":"That is such a good point"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1895.551,"endTime":1896.461,"body":"... To criticize.\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1896.461,"endTime":1897.481,"body":"It's such a good point."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1897.481,"endTime":1898.761,"body":"A few people reached out, and they're like,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1898.761,"endTime":1901.661,"body":"\"You know what? We know your heart. We know what you're doing"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1901.661,"endTime":1906.661,"body":"here. All you do is building common ground.\" She's a creator."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1906.661,"endTime":1908.041,"body":"She creates stuff"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1908.601,"endTime":1912.561,"body":"and does it remarkably, even if I disagree strongly with"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1913.101,"endTime":1914.881,"body":"a lot of the lyrics. [chuckles] And I don't even know how many"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1914.881,"endTime":1917.071,"body":"songs I could mention, to be completely honest."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1917.071,"endTime":1917.08,"body":"Right. Right."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1917.08,"endTime":1920.83,"body":"But I think we have this knee-jerk criticism,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1920.83,"endTime":1924.901,"body":"\"Watch out for sin,\" more than we have a knee-jerk, \"Let's find"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1924.901,"endTime":1927.361,"body":"the good.\" That's just- ... My experience sometimes."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1927.361,"endTime":1930.182,"body":"Psychologists call that splitting. Something's"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1930.182,"endTime":1934.241,"body":"all good, all bad. It's all good, or it's all bad, and I"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1934.241,"endTime":1937.001,"body":"think the church is guilty of splitting on many of these"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1937.001,"endTime":1940.001,"body":"things. Like, we're not good at saying, \"Hey, there's good and"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1940.001,"endTime":1943.621,"body":"bad.\" In most things, I can think of good and bad. So I"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1943.621,"endTime":1944.981,"body":"don't want to one-up your Taylor Swift thing."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1944.981,"endTime":1945.721,"body":"Do it! Do it."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1945.721,"endTime":1946.481,"body":"I'm gonna one-up it."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1946.481,"endTime":1946.741,"body":"Go it."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1946.741,"endTime":1947.161,"body":"Here we go."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1947.161,"endTime":1948.08,"body":"You can two-up it, man."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1948.08,"endTime":1950.422,"body":"So, Rick Langer and I, we do the Winsome"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1950.422,"endTime":1952.041,"body":"Conviction podcast."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1952.041,"endTime":1953.621,"body":"Wait, is this a story where you went on tour"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1953.621,"endTime":1955.351,"body":"with her? Because that would... I'm just kidding. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1955.351,"endTime":1956.281,"body":"Yeah, I did. I did. I was her-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1956.281,"endTime":1956.442,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1956.442,"endTime":1958.801,"body":"But I felt objectified. I finally stopped."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1959.401,"endTime":1962.181,"body":"Okay, so we decide in the midst of all this crazy"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1962.181,"endTime":1964.981,"body":"political rancor, we're gonna do something kind of crazy. Here's"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1964.981,"endTime":1967.701,"body":"what we decided to do. Listen, we can do the negatives of"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1967.701,"endTime":1970.08,"body":"President Trump- ... And President Biden. We can do it"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1970.08,"endTime":1973.481,"body":"all day long, but let's not do that. Let's take the next"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1973.481,"endTime":1976.34,"body":"episode and do- ... The positives of both. We're only"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1976.34,"endTime":1979.481,"body":"allowed to say positives. We flipped a coin. I got President"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1979.481,"endTime":1983.681,"body":"Trump; he got President Biden. Next podcast, Sean, we"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1983.681,"endTime":1986.922,"body":"researched the two, and all we did was positives. Like, give"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1986.922,"endTime":1989.261,"body":"me... I'll give you a quick for both. President Trump, he"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1989.261,"endTime":1990.942,"body":"doesn't drink. Why doesn't he drink?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1990.942,"endTime":1991.071,"body":"Yeah, that's interesting."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1991.071,"endTime":1993.461,"body":"He watched his brother drink himself to death."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1993.461,"endTime":1997.321,"body":"So when it came to the opioid crisis, it is just fact of"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":1997.321,"endTime":2002.001,"body":"record, he poured in billions to address the opioid crisis, okay?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2002.001,"endTime":2002.521,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2002.521,"endTime":2004.801,"body":"President Biden is, right about to do a"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2004.801,"endTime":2008.942,"body":"Democratic debate, and, he's sitting next to Pete Buttigieg,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2008.942,"endTime":2011.661,"body":"and he's going through his rosary. Now, this is from people"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2011.661,"endTime":2014.58,"body":"who were in the green room, and Pete Buttigieg leaned over and"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2014.58,"endTime":2017.511,"body":"said, \"Hey, what are you doing?\" He goes, \"I'm praying through my"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2017.511,"endTime":2021.001,"body":"rosary. I just prayed for you.\" And for all accounts, he shared"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2021.001,"endTime":2024.041,"body":"his Catholic faith with Pete Buttigieg. Okay, so that's"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2024.041,"endTime":2028.721,"body":"what... All positives. I get my very first death threat."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2028.721,"endTime":2029.561,"body":"Legit death threat?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2029.561,"endTime":2031.211,"body":"Legit. It was on my bucket list."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2031.211,"endTime":2031.221,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2031.221,"endTime":2033.961,"body":"My wife is like... My wife is like, \"Who"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2033.961,"endTime":2034.731,"body":"are you?\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2034.731,"endTime":2034.731,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2034.731,"endTime":2037.34,"body":"And I'm like, \"Noreen, I have a black belt in"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2037.34,"endTime":2040.34,"body":"kung fu.\" She goes, \"Against bullets?\" I was like, \"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2040.34,"endTime":2041.711,"body":"that's probably secondary.\" [laughs]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2042.801,"endTime":2042.981,"body":"You know what I mean?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2042.981,"endTime":2043.031,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2043.031,"endTime":2044.821,"body":"But, Sean, think about what splitting that"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2044.821,"endTime":2048.931,"body":"was. And the comments were, \"How dare you say"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2049.561,"endTime":2052.24,"body":"anything positive about that person?\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2052.24,"endTime":2052.922,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2052.922,"endTime":2054.721,"body":"And I think that's splitting. So is the"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2054.721,"endTime":2058.621,"body":"world all bad, or is it all good? Well, we know it's not"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2058.621,"endTime":2059.05,"body":"that easy."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2059.05,"endTime":2059.26,"body":"It's neither."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2059.26,"endTime":2061.74,"body":"It's n- it's much more nuanced than that. But"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2061.74,"endTime":2066.422,"body":"I think we get the reputation of really pointing out the need"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2066.422,"endTime":2069.641,"body":"for Jesus, which is... We absolutely have to do, but we do"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2069.641,"endTime":2073.362,"body":"it by pointing out how bad people are, how bad the"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2073.362,"endTime":2076.362,"body":"situation is, and we forget God's common grace. There are"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2076.362,"endTime":2080.481,"body":"non-Christian EMS workers who are running into burning"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2080.481,"endTime":2083.141,"body":"buildings to save people, and they're not Christians. They do"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2083.141,"endTime":2087.541,"body":"it because of God's common grace. We need to call out the"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2087.541,"endTime":2088.322,"body":"good and"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2089.101,"endTime":2091.882,"body":"the parts that need redeeming, but I think we need to do both,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2091.882,"endTime":2093.3,"body":"and I don't think we're good at"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2094.181,"endTime":2096.422,"body":"being known as, \"Oh, you're the posit-,\" like-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2096.422,"endTime":2096.431,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2096.431,"endTime":2097.561,"body":"... \"Evangelicals, you're the"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2097.561,"endTime":2100.501,"body":"positive guys.\" It's like, I don't think, I don't think"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2100.501,"endTime":2101.842,"body":"that's our reputation."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2101.842,"endTime":2103.641,"body":"Well, I think that's, that's a fact."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2103.641,"endTime":2103.672,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2103.672,"endTime":2105.402,"body":"You know, it is... It would be interesting to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2105.402,"endTime":2109.862,"body":"talk to or do a study of non-believers if we framed-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2109.862,"endTime":2109.871,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2109.871,"endTime":2112.961,"body":"... Things like, \"Christians view the world"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2113.702,"endTime":2114.661,"body":"as their home."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2115.442,"endTime":2118.3,"body":"How well do you think they're caring for their home?\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2118.3,"endTime":2118.862,"body":"[chuckles] Like, it would-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2118.862,"endTime":2118.882,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2118.882,"endTime":2120.621,"body":"I don't have a clue what they would say."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2120.621,"endTime":2120.942,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2120.942,"endTime":2122.342,"body":"But I suspect they'd say, \"Well, the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2122.342,"endTime":2124.652,"body":"environment.\" And I know there's a political angle for that-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2124.652,"endTime":2124.652,"body":"I know, I know"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2124.652,"endTime":2125.891,"body":"... That's not what I'm talking about."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2125.891,"endTime":2125.902,"body":"Right. Yep."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2125.902,"endTime":2128.76,"body":"But I'm just saying, caring for the world"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2129.3,"endTime":2130.902,"body":"that God has given us-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2130.902,"endTime":2131.3,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2131.3,"endTime":2132.422,"body":"... I think is a part of-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2132.422,"endTime":2132.431,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2132.431,"endTime":2133.202,"body":"... Stewardship."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2133.202,"endTime":2133.822,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2133.822,"endTime":2136.442,"body":"Caring for animals, right? There's... I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2136.442,"endTime":2138.942,"body":"just yesterday, I was reading through some of the Old"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2138.942,"endTime":2140.181,"body":"Testament passages-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2140.181,"endTime":2140.192,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2140.192,"endTime":2141.402,"body":"... And even in Proverbs 12-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2141.402,"endTime":2141.411,"body":"Mm-hmm, mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2141.411,"endTime":2144.26,"body":"... It's like a righteous man, the way he cares"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2144.26,"endTime":2144.561,"body":"for"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2145.202,"endTime":2145.882,"body":"animals."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2146.402,"endTime":2146.422,"body":"Yeah. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2146.422,"endTime":2150.061,"body":"You know, do we care for this world? I don't"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2150.061,"endTime":2152.922,"body":"know that we're perceived that way of doing so."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2152.922,"endTime":2153.342,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2153.342,"endTime":2155.8,"body":"And what this does is it causes us to lose"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2155.8,"endTime":2158.521,"body":"credibility in the eyes of the world."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2158.521,"endTime":2158.8,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2158.8,"endTime":2160.481,"body":"It's like, if I walk into your home, and you're"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2160.481,"endTime":2163.521,"body":"telling me certain things, I'm looking around, I'm like- Bro,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2163.521,"endTime":2166.702,"body":"this is messy and messed up. And, you know, like, whatever's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2166.702,"endTime":2167.161,"body":"going on-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2167.161,"endTime":2167.192,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2167.192,"endTime":2169.521,"body":"... You lose a certain level of, like, maybe"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2169.521,"endTime":2173.76,"body":"respect, in a sense. I wonder if that's what's going on. So it"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2173.76,"endTime":2176.952,"body":"matters... I guess it matters on two levels when we think about"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2176.952,"endTime":2180.161,"body":"the world as our home. Number one, would just be so we can"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2180.161,"endTime":2184.362,"body":"appreciate it and have spiritual practices as Christians to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2184.362,"endTime":2186.961,"body":"receive it as a gift in the way you described."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2186.961,"endTime":2187.342,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2187.342,"endTime":2189.541,"body":"But there's also an evangelistic"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2190.121,"endTime":2194.822,"body":"angle towards other people trying to find a home. I mean, I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2194.822,"endTime":2195.041,"body":"think about-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2195.041,"endTime":2195.141,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2195.141,"endTime":2197.26,"body":"... How many movies are people who are lost?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2197.26,"endTime":2197.661,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2197.661,"endTime":2199.322,"body":"The Martian, and they're just-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2199.322,"endTime":2200.081,"body":"Yes"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2200.081,"endTime":2200.981,"body":"... Trying to get home."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2200.981,"endTime":2201.001,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2201.001,"endTime":2202.24,"body":"So there's an evangelistic"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2202.842,"endTime":2206.262,"body":"piece to this as well. One question that, uh-... That"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2206.262,"endTime":2209.061,"body":"Volf went into is some people are probably thinking, \"Wait a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2209.061,"endTime":2213.702,"body":"minute, are we supposed to love the world, or are we not-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2213.702,"endTime":2213.711,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2213.711,"endTime":2215.342,"body":"... Supposed to love the world?\" Because there's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2215.342,"endTime":2218.882,"body":"calls to protect ourselves from the world, separate ourselves"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2218.882,"endTime":2219.342,"body":"from the world,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2219.942,"endTime":2224.942,"body":"but love the world? How do we make sense of those seemingly"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2224.942,"endTime":2227.481,"body":"conflicting biblical passages?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2227.481,"endTime":2230.242,"body":"Well, let me just say one thing. Sean?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2230.242,"endTime":2231.021,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2231.021,"endTime":2234.242,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2235.001,"endTime":2235.862,"body":"What?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2235.862,"endTime":2237.931,"body":"I did that to Clint Arnold one time at the"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2237.931,"endTime":2238.422,"body":"emergent."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2238.422,"endTime":2239.382,"body":"You called him Sean? [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2239.382,"endTime":2241.262,"body":"No, I called him Sean. [laughing] We were asked"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2241.262,"endTime":2243.322,"body":"this crazy question about-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2243.322,"endTime":2243.331,"body":"So random"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2243.331,"endTime":2244.521,"body":"... About Colossae."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2244.521,"endTime":2244.561,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2244.561,"endTime":2245.322,"body":"It was like a really"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2246.422,"endTime":2249.202,"body":"tactical... Clint is a friend of ours."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2249.202,"endTime":2249.391,"body":"He is, yeah."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2249.391,"endTime":2250.902,"body":"He's an expert on Colossians."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2250.902,"endTime":2251.402,"body":"Brilliant."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2251.402,"endTime":2251.981,"body":"He was asked"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2252.742,"endTime":2255.911,"body":"a really hard question. We were on a panel, Sean, and I said-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2255.911,"endTime":2259.092,"body":"\"Hey, real quick, let me just say one thing.\" I said, \"Clint.\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2259.092,"endTime":2259.842,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2259.842,"endTime":2260.521,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2260.521,"endTime":2262.13,"body":"It brought down the house."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2262.13,"endTime":2262.161,"body":"I love that."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2262.161,"endTime":2263.762,"body":"Now, let me say this, and we could e- we could"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2263.762,"endTime":2266.101,"body":"even add to that John's observation that the entire"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2266.101,"endTime":2267.731,"body":"world lies in the power of the evil one."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2268.722,"endTime":2271.762,"body":"So obviously, what I think the writers are trying to say is, do"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2271.762,"endTime":2276.541,"body":"not love the fallen world. Do not love, the things that the"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2276.541,"endTime":2279.001,"body":"world promotes, like, a,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2279.521,"endTime":2283.141,"body":"an unhinged sexuality. Do not love,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2283.782,"endTime":2288.041,"body":"raw power and ambition. Do not love"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2288.922,"endTime":2290.641,"body":"money above people."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2291.661,"endTime":2294.081,"body":"You know, that kind of thing, I think the writers are"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2294.081,"endTime":2298.641,"body":"saying, \"When I'm using the world that way, I'm using a"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2298.641,"endTime":2301.161,"body":"world that has been deeply influenced by the evil one,\" and"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2301.161,"endTime":2305.001,"body":"we need- ... To recognize that and fight against it. So yeah, I"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2305.001,"endTime":2307.322,"body":"think both things can be absolutely true. God created the"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2307.322,"endTime":2310.362,"body":"world to be our home, but the home has been invaded. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2310.362,"endTime":2312.972,"body":"that's one message- ... Of the New Testament is- ..."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2313.521,"endTime":2314.722,"body":"People have come through"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2315.322,"endTime":2318.922,"body":"the back door, and they are invading our home, and we have"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2318.922,"endTime":2322.242,"body":"got to take seriously that we're pushing these evil forces"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2322.242,"endTime":2325.581,"body":"outside of our home and using spiritual weaponry to do that. I"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2325.581,"endTime":2328.981,"body":"think, without a doubt, we can see the work of the evil one"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2328.981,"endTime":2333.061,"body":"in God's home everywhere, as he wants to try to dominate it as"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2333.061,"endTime":2336.362,"body":"long as he can before he's ultimately defeated. So we're in"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2336.362,"endTime":2340.362,"body":"a war. I mean, this home is... M- it's kind of like having a"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2340.362,"endTime":2342.911,"body":"home in Normandy invasion, right? [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2342.911,"endTime":2343.461,"body":"[laughing] Sure."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2343.461,"endTime":2345.641,"body":"I mean, it'd be ridiculous to not look"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2345.641,"endTime":2348.121,"body":"around you and say, \"Hey, wait a minute, there's an invasion"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2348.121,"endTime":2352.382,"body":"happening, and my home is now in the midst of a battlefield, not"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2352.382,"endTime":2356.282,"body":"a, romantic balcony.\" I th- I think that's probably"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2357.242,"endTime":2360.282,"body":"good to keep that in the back of our mind, is we can enjoy the"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2360.282,"endTime":2363.181,"body":"world and be oblivious to the pain and the spiritual battle"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2363.181,"endTime":2364.481,"body":"that's happening in the world."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2364.481,"endTime":2366.362,"body":"You mentioned Colossae, and Clinton, Clint"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2366.362,"endTime":2370.601,"body":"Arnold's second edition of his commentary on Colossians, it"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2370.601,"endTime":2374.362,"body":"might be in the first, but he mentions, like, three kind of,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2374.362,"endTime":2374.501,"body":"of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2375.382,"endTime":2379.141,"body":"enemies of us that can lead us to temptation. One is the flesh."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2379.141,"endTime":2379.641,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2379.641,"endTime":2382.742,"body":"Second is Satan, demons, and third would be the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2382.742,"endTime":2383.382,"body":"world."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2383.382,"endTime":2384.172,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2384.172,"endTime":2385.842,"body":"So it's like, wait a minute, the world leads"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2385.842,"endTime":2389.681,"body":"us to temptation, and yet God so loved the world. Well, we have"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2389.681,"endTime":2390.641,"body":"to distinguish what's-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2390.641,"endTime":2390.811,"body":"Yeah, yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2390.811,"endTime":2393.161,"body":"... Meant by the world based on the context. So"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2393.161,"endTime":2397.481,"body":"the world can mean all of God's creation, including the Earth,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2398.121,"endTime":2402.262,"body":"animals, and human beings, and I think based on Romans 8, that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2402.262,"endTime":2405.481,"body":"Jesus's death will redeem even creation."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2405.481,"endTime":2405.742,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2405.742,"endTime":2407.882,"body":"You can mean the world in that sense. Sometimes"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2407.882,"endTime":2410.702,"body":"the world might refer just towards, like, the church and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2410.702,"endTime":2412.891,"body":"believers. It might include unbelievers."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2412.891,"endTime":2413.481,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2413.481,"endTime":2416.422,"body":"But a lot of times, it's the, it's the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2416.422,"endTime":2419.501,"body":"negative belief systems in the world-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2419.501,"endTime":2419.512,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2419.512,"endTime":2421.032,"body":"... That are opposed-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2421.032,"endTime":2421.032,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2421.032,"endTime":2424.282,"body":"... To Christ. That's what we resist. So we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2424.282,"endTime":2427.362,"body":"have to be careful when we take certain teachings, and we'll"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2427.362,"endTime":2430.222,"body":"talk about, \"Well, the world is evil. The world is bad.\" Well,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2430.222,"endTime":2431.681,"body":"that doesn't mean creation's bad."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2431.681,"endTime":2432.081,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2432.081,"endTime":2433.501,"body":"That doesn't mean people are bad. It means"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2433.501,"endTime":2436.501,"body":"there are systems invading them within them, so we've got to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2436.501,"endTime":2438.012,"body":"find a way to resist that,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2438.621,"endTime":2439.481,"body":"and yet love people"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2440.041,"endTime":2443.181,"body":"and our creation. I think that's the balance, that we're looking"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2443.181,"endTime":2445.782,"body":"for. Let me ask you this last question, unless there's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2445.782,"endTime":2450.081,"body":"anything else I missed. What... If we were really... At the end,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2450.081,"endTime":2452.282,"body":"this is one of the last questions we asked Volf,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2452.862,"endTime":2457.681,"body":"and you said, \"All right, so creation, God just is thrilled"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2457.681,"endTime":2460.422,"body":"that we're here,\" like looking at a baby going- ... \"Whoa, it's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2460.422,"endTime":2461.911,"body":"arrived,\" like, beautiful."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2461.911,"endTime":2462.422,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2462.422,"endTime":2464.492,"body":"God has made this world for us to-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2464.492,"endTime":2464.601,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2464.601,"endTime":2467.32,"body":"... Enjoy, amongst other things, but to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2467.32,"endTime":2468.282,"body":"enjoy."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2468.282,"endTime":2468.762,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2468.762,"endTime":2471.202,"body":"He wants us to receive this as a gift in the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2471.202,"endTime":2476.081,"body":"way that you described. What... But it's also been fallen. What"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2476.081,"endTime":2481.302,"body":"holds us back as believers from properly loving the world?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2484.922,"endTime":2488.181,"body":"So I wrestle with, and I think this is one of"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2488.181,"endTime":2491.621,"body":"the negative impacts of social media, but, you know, you've"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2491.621,"endTime":2494.722,"body":"been overseas just like I've been overseas, and, you know,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2494.722,"endTime":2498.362,"body":"we've gone some pretty nasty places- ... Like the Mathare"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2498.362,"endTime":2500.922,"body":"Valley. The first time I ever went overseas with Campus"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2500.922,"endTime":2501.822,"body":"Crusade for Christ"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2502.362,"endTime":2504.981,"body":"was the Mathare Valley. It was the most intense poverty I've"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2504.981,"endTime":2511.041,"body":"ever seen in my life. So for me to enjoy a really nice meal,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2511.041,"endTime":2512.782,"body":"right, and to"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2514.882,"endTime":2518.242,"body":"take my wife out on a really nice date, i- sometimes in the"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2518.242,"endTime":2520.702,"body":"back of my mind, I'm thinking about the Mathare Valley."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2521.461,"endTime":2523.492,"body":"That this money could... Remember Oscar Schindler?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2523.492,"endTime":2524.081,"body":"Schindler's List?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2524.081,"endTime":2524.782,"body":"Of course."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2524.782,"endTime":2526.661,"body":"He takes off that watch. He goes, \"This was"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2526.661,"endTime":2531.242,"body":"two people I could've saved. This car was 20.\" And I think"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2531.242,"endTime":2534.302,"body":"we can do that. And social media makes it so easy. I mean, we"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2534.302,"endTime":2537.121,"body":"see- ... Sex trafficking, not just what's happening here in"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2537.121,"endTime":2539.822,"body":"California. We're seeing it all across the world, and we're"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2539.822,"endTime":2543.222,"body":"seeing children particularly. It's heartbreaking that they're"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2543.222,"endTime":2546.202,"body":"eating gar- I mean, in Mathare Valley, they're eating garbage."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2546.202,"endTime":2547.442,"body":"So how do I enjoy"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2549.081,"endTime":2552.922,"body":"a good meal when I know that's happening in the back?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2553.942,"endTime":2555.541,"body":"Man, I don't, I don't know."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2556.382,"endTime":2559.242,"body":"I don't know the answer to that question. I don't think"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2559.802,"endTime":2564.601,"body":"I can't enjoy the meal, and go to Starbucks, and get my vanilla"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2564.601,"endTime":2567.242,"body":"latte, Sean. [laughing] All my students know, vanilla latte"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2567.242,"endTime":2571.342,"body":"and, banana bread. You want me grading your papers with"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2571.342,"endTime":2572.561,"body":"banana bread."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2572.561,"endTime":2573.309,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2573.309,"endTime":2575.67,"body":"... So I think I need- I can do that, but at the"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2575.67,"endTime":2579.389,"body":"same time, not to the exclusion,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2581.01,"endTime":2581.929,"body":"I don't"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2582.769,"endTime":2586.909,"body":"think deeply about my finances. I don't think deeply about,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2586.909,"endTime":2590.909,"body":"\"Okay, what can my wife and I and family do?\" Like, like, when"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2590.909,"endTime":2594.51,"body":"that come- remember when the tsunami hit, in Japan?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2594.51,"endTime":2596.389,"body":"You're talking about the 2004 tsunami?"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2596.389,"endTime":2596.599,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2597.23,"endTime":2599.17,"body":"yeah. Yeah. And I remember, I remember [chuckles] this is so"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2599.17,"endTime":2602.309,"body":"funny, and I hope my kids never listen to this, okay? [laughs]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2602.309,"endTime":2604.61,"body":"But you know how it comes on the bottom, it comes a number for"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2604.61,"endTime":2605.349,"body":"the Red Cross-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2605.938,"endTime":2609.05,"body":"... You know, to help tsunami. [laughs] So I don't know about"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2609.05,"endTime":2611.789,"body":"you, but I believe it's biblical calling that I control"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2611.789,"endTime":2613.34,"body":"the remote control in the house."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2613.34,"endTime":2613.48,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2613.48,"endTime":2615.53,"body":"I think that's biblical. It's hard to nail down"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2615.53,"endTime":2618.75,"body":"a particular verse, but I think it's heavily implied. I once got"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2618.75,"endTime":2620.769,"body":"my wife, by the way, a Valentine's Day card."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2620.769,"endTime":2622.489,"body":"You're on, like, your third rabbit trail-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2622.489,"endTime":2622.5,"body":"Yeah, yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2622.5,"endTime":2623.11,"body":"... On this one. [laughs]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2623.11,"endTime":2625.34,"body":"I got my wife a Valentine's Day card that said,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2625.34,"endTime":2627.5,"body":"\"I wanted to give you a symbol of my undying love,\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2628.09,"endTime":2631.03,"body":"and so it's, \"So I'm giving you the remote control for 24"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2631.03,"endTime":2632.07,"body":"unhindered hours.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2632.07,"endTime":2632.42,"body":"Oh, my goodness."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2632.42,"endTime":2634.05,"body":"And then you open it, and a remote control"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2634.05,"endTime":2637.548,"body":"pops up, and it says, \"It started yesterday.\" [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2637.548,"endTime":2638.268,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2638.268,"endTime":2640.289,"body":"So when that thing came on, I literally"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2640.289,"endTime":2641.21,"body":"paused the TV."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2641.21,"endTime":2641.309,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2641.309,"endTime":2642.09,"body":"I did, I paused it."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2642.63,"endTime":2644.03,"body":"I said, \"Okay, Muehlhoffs,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2645.949,"endTime":2647.75,"body":"what are we gonna do?\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2647.75,"endTime":2648.13,"body":"Wow!"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2648.13,"endTime":2651.57,"body":"Like, is that, is that, is that not us? As we"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2651.57,"endTime":2654.57,"body":"sit and watch our flat screen t- you know what I mean? Not to"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2654.57,"endTime":2657.309,"body":"guilt him, but to say, \"Do we just get to turn a blind eye to"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2657.309,"endTime":2658.789,"body":"that?\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2659.809,"endTime":2662.71,"body":"so I think that's the balance. I can enjoy a"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2662.71,"endTime":2663.69,"body":"flat-screen TV,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2664.389,"endTime":2667.849,"body":"but when I learn through that flat-screen TV that there's"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2667.849,"endTime":2670.15,"body":"people that are really suffering, I think I need to"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2670.15,"endTime":2673.269,"body":"start to question, what's my role in helping with a fallen"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2673.269,"endTime":2676.05,"body":"world? What's... For you, how do you balance"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2676.829,"endTime":2677.53,"body":"this?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2677.53,"endTime":2679.889,"body":"You know, I li- I do live in a certain tension"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2679.889,"endTime":2683.61,"body":"there. You know, interestingly enough, reading Peter Singer,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2683.61,"endTime":2686.63,"body":"you know, an atheist, he had a chapter in one of his books on"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2686.63,"endTime":2690.789,"body":"poverty and was like, \"You buy a new TV, you could have saved"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2690.789,"endTime":2691.75,"body":"somebody's life.\""},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2691.75,"endTime":2692.09,"body":"Really?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2692.09,"endTime":2693.849,"body":"Like, this prophetic voice-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2693.849,"endTime":2694.05,"body":"Yeah, yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2694.05,"endTime":2695.57,"body":"... Of calling people to sacrifice. I'm going,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2695.57,"endTime":2699.789,"body":"\"Wow, here's an atheist who I disagree with profoundly about-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2699.789,"endTime":2699.8,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2699.8,"endTime":2700.349,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2700.349,"endTime":2703.789,"body":"... Euthanasia, abortion, all these issues.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2703.789,"endTime":2707.769,"body":"Like, I think he's right about that. I live in that tension. I,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2707.769,"endTime":2710.909,"body":"I don't know how to fix that. I think it's a little bit of just"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2710.909,"endTime":2712.568,"body":"living in a good world"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2713.289,"endTime":2714.63,"body":"with brokenness-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2714.63,"endTime":2714.719,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2714.719,"endTime":2716.489,"body":"... And the reality of that. I don't think"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2716.489,"endTime":2720.15,"body":"we'll fully escape that until we get to heaven."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2720.809,"endTime":2723.59,"body":"So I think if we're just completely enjoying things,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2723.59,"endTime":2727.55,"body":"we've lost, we've lost the brokenness and the urgency to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2727.55,"endTime":2727.949,"body":"act."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2727.949,"endTime":2728.329,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2728.329,"endTime":2730.63,"body":"If we're living in that brokenness and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2730.63,"endTime":2733.19,"body":"sinfulness, number one, it can become depressing, [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2733.19,"endTime":2736.369,"body":"but number two, I wonder if we are receiving the goodness and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2736.369,"endTime":2736.989,"body":"beauty-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2736.989,"endTime":2737.519,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2737.519,"endTime":2738.42,"body":"... That God has given us."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2738.42,"endTime":2738.429,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2738.429,"endTime":2740.389,"body":"So I think, I think it's a dance between the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2740.389,"endTime":2743.17,"body":"two, and we probably have personalities and just"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2743.17,"endTime":2744.809,"body":"experiences and rhythms-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2744.809,"endTime":2744.929,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2744.929,"endTime":2747.389,"body":"... That lean us one way or the other. It's kind"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2747.389,"endTime":2750.949,"body":"of like the truth and grace thing. Either people, you know,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2750.949,"endTime":2752.309,"body":"tend to be more truthful-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2752.309,"endTime":2752.42,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2752.42,"endTime":2754.21,"body":"... Or more gracious, and you need to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2754.21,"endTime":2758.489,"body":"balance the two together. It's probably the same with this. You"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2758.489,"endTime":2761.409,"body":"know, what keeps us back from properly loving the world, to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2761.409,"endTime":2761.659,"body":"kind of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2762.65,"endTime":2766.19,"body":"wrap up this conversation, I think it can be bad theology."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2766.19,"endTime":2769.17,"body":"That's why it's important to think about the world- ... As"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2769.17,"endTime":2773.269,"body":"the home. I think it can be misguided priorities about what"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2773.269,"endTime":2774.949,"body":"we're here for-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2774.949,"endTime":2775.17,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2775.17,"endTime":2776.42,"body":"... And what our task is-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2776.42,"endTime":2776.42,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2776.42,"endTime":2777.498,"body":"... To love God"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2778.05,"endTime":2779.869,"body":"and to love other people."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2779.869,"endTime":2780.11,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2780.11,"endTime":2782.789,"body":"And it can just be our own, our own sinfulness"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2782.789,"endTime":2786.63,"body":"and our own falling short. But, this is challenging. It's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2786.63,"endTime":2788.389,"body":"been fun to revisit this, Tim-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2788.389,"endTime":2788.4,"body":"It was great"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2788.4,"endTime":2790.65,"body":"... 'cause that class was really meaningful to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2790.65,"endTime":2790.938,"body":"me."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2790.938,"endTime":2791.329,"body":"It was really good."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2791.329,"endTime":2793.429,"body":"And I just forgot how deep that idea of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2793.429,"endTime":2794.05,"body":"thinking about"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2794.65,"endTime":2797.969,"body":"all of creation as our home and our responsibility to it"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2798.63,"endTime":2802.11,"body":"resonates with me, and I think the Scriptures, and to just ask"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2802.11,"endTime":2803.278,"body":"the question- How do we better"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2803.909,"endTime":2808.409,"body":"love God, love His home, and love people who are here? That's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2808.409,"endTime":2808.949,"body":"really the most important question."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2808.949,"endTime":2811.63,"body":"And how cool that he would come to Biola and"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2811.63,"endTime":2813.01,"body":"be super accessible."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2813.01,"endTime":2813.07,"body":"He was."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2813.07,"endTime":2813.75,"body":"I found him to be"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2814.57,"endTime":2816.59,"body":"very accessible. We had lunch with him."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2816.59,"endTime":2817.01,"body":"We did."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2817.01,"endTime":2818.429,"body":"You, me, and a friend, and,"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2819.25,"endTime":2820.71,"body":"I thought... Yeah, I thought he was very-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2820.71,"endTime":2822.849,"body":"And by the way, if you see him in public wearing"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2822.849,"endTime":2823.59,"body":"some Jordans-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2823.59,"endTime":2824.119,"body":"Yes!"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2824.119,"endTime":2826.17,"body":"... That was from my son and I, which was"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2826.17,"endTime":2827.469,"body":"just a gift-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2827.469,"endTime":2828.09,"body":"Oh, cool. He loved them."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2828.09,"endTime":2829.438,"body":"Out of... He absolutely loved them."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2829.438,"endTime":2829.53,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2829.53,"endTime":2831.61,"body":"Out of appreciation-"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2831.61,"endTime":2831.78,"body":"Yeah, yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2831.78,"endTime":2834.61,"body":"... For how he blessed us, which brings us back"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2834.61,"endTime":2835.17,"body":"to the power of gift."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2835.17,"endTime":2837.75,"body":"And I can't wait, after this, podcast, to"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2837.75,"endTime":2840.699,"body":"see the shoes that you're- you have for me. [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2840.699,"endTime":2841.23,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2841.23,"endTime":2844.409,"body":"I'm, I'm just... But I digress. Go ahead."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2844.409,"endTime":2845.59,"body":"Tim, this is fun. We'll do it again."},{"speaker":"Tim Muehlhoff","startTime":2845.59,"endTime":2846.59,"body":"It'd be great. Thanks."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2846.59,"endTime":2848.65,"body":"Folks listening, make sure you subscribe to the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2848.65,"endTime":2853.329,"body":"Winsome Convictions podcast and to the Talbot Podcast- Think"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2853.329,"endTime":2863.09,"body":"Biblically. We'll see you next time. [upbeat music]"}]}