{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":0.1,"endTime":4.259,"body":"[upbeat music] Who was Dr. C. Everett Koop, and why"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":4.259,"endTime":7.7,"body":"is his life so significant? How did he become so passionate"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":7.7,"endTime":10.66,"body":"about abortion, and how did he navigate bioethical"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":10.66,"endTime":13.88,"body":"controversies during his tenure as surgeon general under"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":13.88,"endTime":16.6,"body":"President Ronald Reagan? We'll discuss these questions and a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":16.6,"endTime":19.399,"body":"whole lot more with our guest and Dr. Koop's biographer and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":19.399,"endTime":22.82,"body":"medical historian, Dr. Nigel Cameron. I'm your host, Scott"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":22.82,"endTime":24.679,"body":"Rae, and this is Think Biblically from Talbot School of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":24.679,"endTime":28.26,"body":"Theology, Biola University. Nigel, welcome. It's, it's good"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":28.26,"endTime":31.82,"body":"to reconnect with you, and great to have you, talking about Dr."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":31.82,"endTime":33.979,"body":"Koop, a man that we both admire greatly."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":33.979,"endTime":35.119,"body":"Great to be here. Thank you."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":35.119,"endTime":36.719,"body":"Thank you. Now, for our listeners who might not be"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":36.719,"endTime":37.6,"body":"familiar with him,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":38.28,"endTime":43.159,"body":"tell just briefly, who was he, and why is he significant?"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":43.159,"endTime":45.0,"body":"Well, Chick Koop, Chick was his nickname."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":45.0,"endTime":49.619,"body":"Everybody called him Chick. He began life, as it were, as the"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":49.619,"endTime":53.119,"body":"world's most famous pediatric surgeon, separating, you know,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":53.119,"endTime":56.359,"body":"conjoined twins, very celebrated, and basically"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":56.359,"endTime":59.2,"body":"building pediatric surgery as a profession in the US."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":59.859,"endTime":61.42,"body":"So it wa- it wasn't really a thing"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":62.159,"endTime":62.479,"body":"before."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":62.479,"endTime":65.549,"body":"I mean, he was one of perhaps the first four..."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":65.549,"endTime":67.7,"body":"Three or four full-time pediatric surgeons-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":67.7,"endTime":67.75,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":67.75,"endTime":69.92,"body":"... In the country. It was adult surgeons"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":69.92,"endTime":73.2,"body":"would do this stuff on kids, and the kids would often just die,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":73.2,"endTime":76.599,"body":"and Koop was the guy who began to pull the whole thing together"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":76.599,"endTime":78.4,"body":"and made it work."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":78.4,"endTime":78.959,"body":"All right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":79.959,"endTime":84.0,"body":"Now, just say, what was he like as a person?"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":84.0,"endTime":86.56,"body":"Well, people often found him rather gruff. I"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":86.56,"endTime":90.18,"body":"mean, he could, you know, he could be quite sharp-tongued. He"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":90.18,"endTime":93.64,"body":"could complain a bit about people, students, and so on."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":95.06,"endTime":96.219,"body":"But if you got to know him,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":97.359,"endTime":100.28,"body":"you know, this mellowed, and he was never gruff with me, and"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":100.28,"endTime":104.159,"body":"we were really quite friendly. I spoke to one of his former"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":104.159,"endTime":106.659,"body":"aides, you know, who's now a professor down at University of"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":106.659,"endTime":109.819,"body":"Chicago, and he said, \"Yes,\" he said, \"he... Once or twice, he"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":109.819,"endTime":112.76,"body":"really cut me off and chewed me up, you know, but I'm sure I"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":112.76,"endTime":115.939,"body":"deserved it.\" So Koop had this per- this p-p... Of course, he"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":115.939,"endTime":118.379,"body":"was a surgeon. He'd been used to telling everybody what to do for"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":118.379,"endTime":119.54,"body":"30 years."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":120.239,"endTime":122.5,"body":"But to get to know him, he could really be very funny, and"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":123.14,"endTime":126.98,"body":"the thing is, he was a baby doctor. He was a kiddie doctor."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":126.98,"endTime":129.52,"body":"I mean, he could, he could spend hours with little children. He"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":129.52,"endTime":133.36,"body":"could keep them amused. So he had this incredible soft side to"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":133.36,"endTime":133.62,"body":"him,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":134.139,"endTime":137.9,"body":"even if he could then flip into top surgeon mode- ... And be"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":137.9,"endTime":141.12,"body":"much more fierce. So, and he called on both of these traits"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":141.12,"endTime":142.56,"body":"when he was in government."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":142.56,"endTime":144.479,"body":"Now, it's, it's, it's one thing to admire"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":144.479,"endTime":145.52,"body":"somebody as a person"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":146.039,"endTime":148.52,"body":"and admire their life. It's another thing to commit to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":148.52,"endTime":152.02,"body":"writing their biography, which you described as a four-year"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":152.02,"endTime":153.159,"body":"project."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":153.699,"endTime":157.62,"body":"What was it that so captured you about Dr. Koop and his life and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":157.62,"endTime":162.419,"body":"his legacy that motivated you to write his biography?"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":162.419,"endTime":164.819,"body":"I think, I think a couple of different things."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":164.819,"endTime":167.74,"body":"From a personal level, I mean, I knew him. We were kind of"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":167.74,"endTime":170.0,"body":"friendly. I mean, I wasn't that close to him, but I knew him"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":170.0,"endTime":173.08,"body":"over 30 years, and, you know, he met my family and this sort of"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":173.08,"endTime":173.639,"body":"thing."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":174.36,"endTime":174.68,"body":"And"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":175.96,"endTime":179.039,"body":"so I was interested. I mean, he... After he passed back"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":179.039,"endTime":183.639,"body":"in 2013, just about 2020, '21, I... It just came into my head,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":183.639,"endTime":186.4,"body":"like people do, you know, who've passed, and I"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":186.4,"endTime":188.86,"body":"thought, \"Well, there must be a biography. Who's working on"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":188.86,"endTime":191.699,"body":"this?\" So I did some Googling and made a couple of phone calls"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":191.699,"endTime":194.259,"body":"and, thought, \"Well, okay, no one's done this,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":194.84,"endTime":197.199,"body":"and it needs to be done.\" And then I said-- secondly, I"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":197.199,"endTime":199.629,"body":"thought, well, I mean, here was a man who was a"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":200.219,"endTime":203.86,"body":"absolutely convinced evangelical Christian, Reformed Christian,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":203.86,"endTime":206.379,"body":"who ends up being a major public figure, and that is a pretty"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":206.379,"endTime":209.939,"body":"unusual thing. And in fact, his friend, Harold O.J. Brown, who"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":209.939,"endTime":212.78,"body":"was one of the leading lights of evangelical theology"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":212.78,"endTime":212.96,"body":"then,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":213.9,"endTime":217.18,"body":"Joe Brown said he was the most significant evangelical in"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":217.18,"endTime":219.379,"body":"public life since William Jennings Bryan-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":219.379,"endTime":219.919,"body":"Really?"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":219.919,"endTime":220.46,"body":"... Back in the 19th century."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":220.46,"endTime":221.96,"body":"That's quite, that's quite a call."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":222.68,"endTime":224.96,"body":"And he didn't count Jimmy Carter. So,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":225.9,"endTime":229.199,"body":"so he was a really important kind of crossover character,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":229.939,"endTime":232.08,"body":"and I thought, \"Well, someone needs to write about"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":232.08,"endTime":234.539,"body":"him, who can get a sort of university press sort of"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":234.539,"endTime":238.34,"body":"branding for the book, not a Christian book, but who will"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":238.34,"endTime":240.5,"body":"take his faith seriously.\" And I thought, \"Maybe, Nigel, you're"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":240.5,"endTime":243.56,"body":"kind of semi-retired now, and you should pick it up.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":243.56,"endTime":243.699,"body":"Now,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":244.56,"endTime":247.62,"body":"before he became surgeon general in the Reagan administration,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":247.62,"endTime":250.28,"body":"which is, I think, really when he became much more of a public"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":250.28,"endTime":251.219,"body":"figure,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":251.74,"endTime":254.479,"body":"he w- he was impacted significantly by the late"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":254.479,"endTime":257.48,"body":"Francis Schaeffer. Tell us a little bit about the impact that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":257.48,"endTime":261.56,"body":"Schaeffer had on him and maybe vice versa."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":261.56,"endTime":263.779,"body":"Sure. Well, he had met the Schaeffer family, I"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":263.779,"endTime":266.439,"body":"mean, way back through the hospital, because,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":267.04,"endTime":269.36,"body":"one of the Schaeffer kids was having some surgery, and he kind"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":269.36,"endTime":272.1,"body":"of got involved rather accidentally with this, and then"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":272.1,"endTime":274.379,"body":"met Edith, who was with the child,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":274.98,"endTime":277.139,"body":"and then got into- kind of connected with the Schaeffer"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":277.139,"endTime":279.639,"body":"family. But I mean, he was, he was converted,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":280.3,"endTime":283.92,"body":"back in 1947, at Tenth Presbyterian Church in"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":283.92,"endTime":285.279,"body":"Philadelphia, under the great,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":285.98,"endTime":287.259,"body":"Donald Grey Barnhouse-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":287.259,"endTime":287.639,"body":"Yeah, yeah"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":287.639,"endTime":289.42,"body":"... Who was our first-ever coast-to-coast radio"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":289.42,"endTime":293.22,"body":"preacher back in 1928. Very unusual fundamentalist leader of"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":293.22,"endTime":295.56,"body":"the day, partly 'cause he spoke fluent French, and he would"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":295.56,"endTime":299.12,"body":"often just speak French at home with his family. Barnhouse"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":299.12,"endTime":301.819,"body":"doesn't have a biography. Interesting guy, but he and Koop"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":301.819,"endTime":302.579,"body":"became very close"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":303.3,"endTime":305.399,"body":"in late '40s through the '50s."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":305.959,"endTime":309.06,"body":"And then he bumps into Schaeffer in this rather accidental way,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":309.06,"endTime":311.519,"body":"and immediately, being Koop, gets really involved in his"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":311.519,"endTime":316.019,"body":"ministry, and funding it, and being the doctor of last resort"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":316.019,"endTime":319.18,"body":"to the kids, and so on and so forth. And then some years"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":319.18,"endTime":320.04,"body":"later,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":320.68,"endTime":324.06,"body":"comes to come across him rather closely, almost by accident,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":324.06,"endTime":327.019,"body":"well, by providence, and then they begin talking about the,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":327.019,"endTime":329.459,"body":"the movie series, which really made their partnership"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":329.459,"endTime":329.92,"body":"famous."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":329.92,"endTime":331.18,"body":"Yeah, Whatever Happened to..."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":331.18,"endTime":332.31,"body":"Whatever Happened to the Human Race?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":332.31,"endTime":335.36,"body":"Nice. Nice. Yeah. Now,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":336.6,"endTime":339.639,"body":"w- how did he become so passionate about abortion?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":339.639,"endTime":342.339,"body":"Because as you point out in the book, it was, it was not his"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":342.339,"endTime":345.22,"body":"religious beliefs primarily that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":345.74,"endTime":349.06,"body":"made him such a passionate advocate for the unborn. But if,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":349.06,"endTime":351.319,"body":"if that's not the case, then what was it?"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":351.319,"endTime":352.879,"body":"It's a very interesting question. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":352.879,"endTime":356.639,"body":"most evangelicals today would be astonished and horrified and"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":356.639,"endTime":357.689,"body":"probably rather disbelieving"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":358.319,"endTime":360.8,"body":"if you pointed out that when Roe versus Wade was handed"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":360.8,"endTime":363.158,"body":"down, hardly any evangelicals were bothered about it."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":363.884,"endTime":365.502,"body":"... Now, that was, that was one of the things"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":365.502,"endTime":365.983,"body":"that was-"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":365.983,"endTime":366.274,"body":"I mean-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":366.274,"endTime":367.483,"body":"-breaking news to me."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":367.483,"endTime":369.024,"body":"Just, you know, just read the"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":369.024,"endTime":374.233,"body":"record. Because it was seen as a Catholic issue, and, things like"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":374.233,"endTime":377.204,"body":"the Christian Medical Association and so on, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":377.204,"endTime":379.062,"body":"these, they were way... It was like, it was like"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":379.062,"endTime":381.423,"body":"contraception. It was a Catholic thing back then, Catholic versus"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":381.423,"endTime":385.283,"body":"Evangelical, big divide, and so they weren't much bother."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":385.283,"endTime":388.663,"body":"Now, there were exceptions, but they were exceptions, and so it"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":388.663,"endTime":392.442,"body":"just wasn't an issue. But Koop, pretty interestingly, by"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":392.442,"endTime":396.363,"body":"providence, as he would certainly have said, in 1973,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":396.942,"endTime":399.923,"body":"immediately after Roe was handed down in January,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":399.923,"endTime":401.283,"body":"February, whenever it was,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":401.863,"endTime":403.244,"body":"he's writing to his attorney"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":403.824,"endTime":405.663,"body":"and saying, \"I would like the judgment"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":406.764,"endTime":408.903,"body":"from the court,\" 'cause you couldn't just Google it in those"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":408.903,"endTime":412.103,"body":"days, \"uh, because I've just been invited to give"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":412.103,"endTime":415.283,"body":"commencement address at Wheaton College, 'cause my daughter is"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":415.283,"endTime":421.303,"body":"graduating.\" And so he then delved into the whole thing in"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":421.303,"endTime":426.983,"body":"de- now, why did he take this view? It's really interesting to"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":426.983,"endTime":430.204,"body":"see how he came to his pro-life conclusions because in"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":430.204,"endTime":433.103,"body":"his... He wrote this book in 1976, you know, The Right to the"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":433.103,"endTime":435.644,"body":"Right to Life, and it uses all sorts of arguments. And his"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":435.644,"endTime":438.062,"body":"Wheaton address, which was really the basis for that book"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":438.062,"endTime":441.663,"body":"in '73, which was never published, in full by anybody."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":441.663,"endTime":444.504,"body":"It's in the archives of Wheaton College, um-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":444.504,"endTime":445.983,"body":"And you, and you mentioned in the book, too, that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":445.983,"endTime":447.603,"body":"the address was never made public."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":447.603,"endTime":450.124,"body":"It was, it was never... No, I mean, they-"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":450.124,"endTime":453.084,"body":"Wheaton was really embarrassed by this pro-life speech. This"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":453.084,"endTime":456.182,"body":"wasn't what they were looking for at all, because back then, I"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":456.182,"endTime":458.163,"body":"mean, the evangelicals weren't into this thing, and Wheaton has"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":458.163,"endTime":461.603,"body":"always been very touchy about controversy and so on. So, Koop"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":461.603,"endTime":463.783,"body":"makes this absolutely belligerent speech"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":464.322,"endTime":468.903,"body":"about abortion. Now, I think, to a degree, this came,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":468.903,"endTime":472.524,"body":"and he would say this after the event, from his practice because"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":472.524,"endTime":474.682,"body":"here he was, saving little, tiny babies,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":475.322,"endTime":478.682,"body":"and, you know, just, 100 yards up the road in the university"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":478.682,"endTime":482.384,"body":"hospital, they were, they were doing late abortions."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":482.384,"endTime":483.144,"body":"And, and this-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":483.144,"endTime":484.343,"body":"At the same gestational age."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":484.343,"endTime":486.144,"body":"The same gestational age, of perfectly"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":486.144,"endTime":488.062,"body":"healthy babies, and he was saving the babies who were not"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":488.062,"endTime":492.963,"body":"perfectly healthy, and this rankled. And I think this,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":492.963,"endTime":496.644,"body":"this... I think this was a major factor. I think he was also"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":496.644,"endTime":500.084,"body":"theologically engaged with the question, and he knew"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":500.084,"endTime":503.983,"body":"a lot of Catholics. He was quite, for the time, he was"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":503.983,"endTime":505.923,"body":"really quite ecumenical in the way in which he built"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":505.923,"endTime":506.682,"body":"relationships,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":507.363,"endTime":508.004,"body":"and,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":508.843,"endTime":511.524,"body":"but this all came together. But it's fascinating, I mean, back"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":511.524,"endTime":515.384,"body":"in, back in '73, over those few months between,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":515.384,"endTime":518.822,"body":"between Roe and Wheaton's commencement, I mean, he was"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":518.822,"endTime":522.504,"body":"writing this really very powerful speech, and it changed"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":522.504,"endTime":525.964,"body":"his life and actually changed the life of evangelical America,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":525.964,"endTime":526.173,"body":"and"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":526.783,"endTime":528.964,"body":"as it just happened, the life of political America, which is"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":528.964,"endTime":530.464,"body":"another question."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":530.464,"endTime":530.722,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":531.344,"endTime":534.543,"body":"I'd ne- I'd never, you know, I'd ne- I had always thought that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":534.543,"endTime":536.903,"body":"the, you know, evangelicals would have been always engaged"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":536.903,"endTime":540.624,"body":"in the, in defending the unborn. And that was, that was quite a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":540.624,"endTime":543.364,"body":"bit of breaking news to realize, eh, maybe not so much"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":543.923,"endTime":546.163,"body":"in the '70s. And some of the people you quote"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":546.744,"endTime":551.903,"body":"making statements about when personhood begins at birth"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":551.903,"endTime":554.403,"body":"among, you know, Baptist preachers and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":555.063,"endTime":559.583,"body":"evangelical leaders, was actually quite alarming. And so"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":559.583,"endTime":559.783,"body":"he-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":560.403,"endTime":562.423,"body":"was he swimming upstream-"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":562.423,"endTime":562.823,"body":"He was"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":562.823,"endTime":564.104,"body":"... In the evangelical community?"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":564.104,"endTime":565.823,"body":"Oh, he was, and he liked doing that. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":565.823,"endTime":569.884,"body":"Chick was a bruiser. I mean, he loved to fight, and so"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":569.884,"endTime":572.783,"body":"I think that was just, you know, just encouraged him."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":573.403,"endTime":577.323,"body":"But there wasn't much discussion among evangelicals. But"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":577.323,"endTime":579.783,"body":"there were some, and the Christian Medical Society of its"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":579.783,"endTime":582.703,"body":"day, was very much in this middle position."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":583.604,"endTime":585.604,"body":"And there was this big book they published called... Is it called"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":585.604,"endTime":588.552,"body":"The Christian and the, and the Unborn or something like that-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":588.552,"endTime":588.552,"body":"Something like that"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":588.552,"endTime":591.504,"body":"... Which was a collaboration of various groups,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":592.144,"endTime":596.043,"body":"and a fascinating book. And the consensus in the book is that"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":596.043,"endTime":598.384,"body":"abortion may be okay at least sometimes."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":599.124,"endTime":602.563,"body":"And some of them was precisely up to birth were"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":602.563,"endTime":605.604,"body":"fine. And, and they would often say, \"Well, yes, it's probably a"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":605.604,"endTime":608.264,"body":"bad thing, but on the other hand, if you can stop something,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":608.264,"endTime":610.222,"body":"else bad happening in the family, like there are too many"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":610.222,"endTime":612.982,"body":"children or something, then it's okay.\" And that was"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":612.982,"endTime":615.903,"body":"the way they were thinking. And Koop, well, Koop was always"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":615.903,"endTime":619.563,"body":"something of an extremist. I mean, he, you know, there's a"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":619.563,"endTime":623.104,"body":"wonderful article about him in much later life, which says that"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":623.104,"endTime":627.323,"body":"he has a lot of, lot of opinion, and whenever you're in"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":627.323,"endTime":630.163,"body":"a room with him, it's very hard not to be influenced by this"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":630.163,"endTime":631.293,"body":"expression of opinion."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":632.104,"endTime":634.303,"body":"And so when Koop thought anything, he thought it, he"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":634.303,"endTime":635.464,"body":"thought it strongly."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":636.344,"endTime":639.283,"body":"And I think that partly explains what happened because, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":639.283,"endTime":642.443,"body":"he- obviously, he was still the world's most famous pediatric"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":642.443,"endTime":642.783,"body":"surgeon"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":643.644,"endTime":646.003,"body":"in the '70s, which we know, which was, like, his last"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":646.003,"endTime":648.844,"body":"decade of professional practice."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":649.583,"endTime":651.303,"body":"And I think you could probably say he was probably getting"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":651.303,"endTime":651.703,"body":"bored."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":652.243,"endTime":652.274,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":652.274,"endTime":653.543,"body":"You know, I mean, he'd established the"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":653.543,"endTime":653.982,"body":"profession."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":653.982,"endTime":654.024,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":654.024,"endTime":655.524,"body":"He built this huge team, the Children's"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":655.524,"endTime":657.644,"body":"Hospital of Philadelphia. He built out all these"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":657.644,"endTime":661.384,"body":"subspecialties. His model for how you do a children's hospital"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":661.384,"endTime":665.303,"body":"had basically won out, and he was a man of absolutely"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":665.303,"endTime":668.503,"body":"relentless energy. And to be fair, some of his friends would"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":668.503,"endTime":671.783,"body":"say he needed to be needed. He needed to have a cause. He"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":671.783,"endTime":675.283,"body":"needed to have people who needed him, and it was all built into"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":675.283,"endTime":677.793,"body":"his personality. And, and here,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":678.514,"endTime":681.183,"body":"Who is it now? I think it may be Michael Specter. So some other"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":681.183,"endTime":683.384,"body":"writer who's written about Koop,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":684.003,"endTime":686.163,"body":"said that, said that sort of he was looking for something fresh"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":686.163,"endTime":688.303,"body":"to do, and the pro-life movement, you know, had"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":688.303,"endTime":691.903,"body":"vacancies. A phra- a phrase like that, because here was something"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":691.903,"endTime":696.144,"body":"quite fresh, and he moves in his somewhat, you know,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":696.144,"endTime":700.443,"body":"blundering, bulldozer way into the debate, and offends all"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":700.443,"endTime":702.903,"body":"kinds of people, but he makes an impact."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":702.903,"endTime":705.403,"body":"Well, it sounds like the evangelical community"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":705.403,"endTime":708.933,"body":"needed a bit of a bull in a china shop at that point."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":708.933,"endTime":711.283,"body":"[sighs] And he was, he was, he was the guy."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":711.283,"endTime":713.124,"body":"And I... Well, I could se- I could see it doesn't"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":713.124,"endTime":715.703,"body":"take much imagination to see how rankled he got"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":716.222,"endTime":719.803,"body":"when he was saving kids that they were aborting in"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":719.803,"endTime":722.923,"body":"the h- in the same medical complex, basically."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":722.923,"endTime":723.423,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":723.423,"endTime":723.594,"body":"And"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":724.124,"endTime":726.482,"body":"recognizing that he could do something to make a difference"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":726.482,"endTime":729.043,"body":"on that. Now, when he was nominated to be surgeon"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":729.043,"endTime":733.203,"body":"general-... What kind of obstacles did he face"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":734.423,"endTime":737.203,"body":"before his nomination got cleared?"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":737.203,"endTime":739.583,"body":"Well, Koop was first approached about the,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":740.384,"endTime":742.344,"body":"about becoming surgeon general,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":743.563,"endTime":747.264,"body":"back in, back in, before Reagan was even elected, by Senator"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":747.264,"endTime":750.303,"body":"Schweiker, who was his home state senator, and he was"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":750.303,"endTime":751.894,"body":"sounding him out. And,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":752.663,"endTime":755.504,"body":"Koop, at that point, thought he'd be in the Cabinet."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":755.504,"endTime":755.943,"body":"Oh."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":756.604,"endTime":758.224,"body":"I mean, surgeon general has actually never been"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":758.224,"endTime":760.323,"body":"in the Cabinet, even though it used to be a much more powerful"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":760.323,"endTime":762.863,"body":"role than it was in Koop's day. But,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":763.443,"endTime":766.364,"body":"he had thought, \"This is gonna be terrific.\" And, and he also"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":766.364,"endTime":768.543,"body":"thought, I suppose in the way you do when you've spent 30"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":768.543,"endTime":771.803,"body":"years as the top person in your field, that everybody would just"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":771.803,"endTime":776.344,"body":"be delighted, and cheer, and say, \"Well done.\" and so when he"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":776.344,"endTime":777.703,"body":"went to Washington, and"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":778.433,"endTime":781.484,"body":"d- you know, ran into a buzz saws, you know, of a, of a"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":781.484,"endTime":785.323,"body":"high-order buzz saws. I mean, the New York Times had an"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":785.323,"endTime":789.183,"body":"editorial specifically about him, headed \"Dr. Unqualified.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":789.183,"endTime":790.063,"body":"Oh, my God!"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":790.063,"endTime":792.504,"body":"And, a slightly smarter- ... Smarter journalist"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":792.504,"endTime":793.943,"body":"called him Dr. Kook."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":793.943,"endTime":794.504,"body":"Oh."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":794.504,"endTime":795.703,"body":"And that stuck."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":795.703,"endTime":795.903,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":795.903,"endTime":797.264,"body":"That stuck. And"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":798.063,"endTime":800.724,"body":"it's curious, he was... In some ways, he was very thin-skinned."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":800.724,"endTime":802.884,"body":"For a sort of bruiser who liked to have an argument,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":803.543,"endTime":805.943,"body":"he was curiously sensitive. I mean, most people who spend"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":805.943,"endTime":808.604,"body":"their lives being controversialists, they don't"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":808.604,"endTime":811.724,"body":"care. They expect people to cr- but he really took these"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":811.724,"endTime":815.464,"body":"things to heart, and he got very upset about them. And,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":816.163,"endTime":818.244,"body":"and then it emerged that he was gonna spend about nine months,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":818.903,"endTime":821.923,"body":"and it was a, it was a technical issue, 'cause he was too old."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":821.923,"endTime":823.903,"body":"Because, you see, to become surgeon general, you've got to"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":823.903,"endTime":826.203,"body":"be an officer of the Commissioned Corps of the Public"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":826.203,"endTime":828.333,"body":"Health Service, which is a weird, old-fashioned thing, but"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":828.333,"endTime":831.083,"body":"they still have 6,000 people wear uniforms."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":831.823,"endTime":835.884,"body":"And they have to retire when they're 64 and X days. And he"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":835.884,"endTime":839.663,"body":"was just a few days too old, so they had to have legislation to"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":839.663,"endTime":843.894,"body":"change the rules about the Commissioned Corps, and that had"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":843.894,"endTime":845.884,"body":"to go through the House. Now, the House was controlled by the"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":845.884,"endTime":846.364,"body":"Democrats,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":847.163,"endTime":850.403,"body":"so you have this classic Washington fight going on,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":850.403,"endTime":853.163,"body":"separation of powers issues involved, the Senate being"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":853.163,"endTime":855.644,"body":"crossed because the House is making a decision that affects"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":855.644,"endTime":858.643,"body":"their nomination decision, and Koop in the middle of all this,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":858.643,"endTime":862.283,"body":"and he was pretty horrified. But, they made him an, they made"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":862.283,"endTime":864.583,"body":"him deputy assistant secretary of health, so he had a salary,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":864.583,"endTime":867.264,"body":"he had an office, and in fact, had quite a lot of things to do"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":867.264,"endTime":871.004,"body":"during this nine-month period. But big criticisms made of him,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":871.004,"endTime":873.923,"body":"and he did not like this at all. He thought he was, he was a"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":873.923,"endTime":876.604,"body":"big guy. I mean, the formal criticism was he had no"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":876.604,"endTime":877.803,"body":"background in public health."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":878.923,"endTime":883.004,"body":"He's a surgeon, and it so happens this guy had set up"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":883.004,"endTime":885.144,"body":"hospitals around the world with support from the State"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":885.144,"endTime":885.823,"body":"Department."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":885.823,"endTime":885.844,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":885.844,"endTime":888.004,"body":"He did all kinds of public healthy things"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":888.543,"endTime":892.423,"body":"on the side, and, But the American Public Health"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":892.423,"endTime":895.683,"body":"Association, which is a huge organization, absolutely took"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":895.683,"endTime":897.283,"body":"him apart in these hearings,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":898.163,"endTime":900.203,"body":"and it was, it was pretty grim."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":900.203,"endTime":902.373,"body":"And never mind the fact that the office was the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":902.373,"endTime":904.884,"body":"office of the surgeon general."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":904.884,"endTime":906.504,"body":"Well, that's one of the other... Yes, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":906.504,"endTime":908.624,"body":"there was, well, some of the polls would say, \"Why don't we"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":908.624,"endTime":910.764,"body":"have a surgeon as surgeon general?\" You know."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":911.524,"endTime":915.163,"body":"But, of course, the office also, there wasn't much to it. I-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":915.163,"endTime":917.163,"body":"Yeah, it sounds like he really elevated the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":917.163,"endTime":917.484,"body":"prominence-"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":917.484,"endTime":918.004,"body":"Well, he-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":918.004,"endTime":918.014,"body":"... Of the role"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":918.014,"endTime":919.604,"body":"The thing is, he thought this was Cabinet. It was"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":919.604,"endTime":921.844,"body":"never Cabinet. But until the mid-'60s,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":922.484,"endTime":924.443,"body":"the surgeon general ran"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":925.063,"endTime":929.344,"body":"the, you know, Centers for Disease Control, the NIH. He ran"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":929.344,"endTime":929.693,"body":"the,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":930.543,"endTime":931.163,"body":"um-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":931.744,"endTime":932.313,"body":"CDC"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":932.313,"endTime":933.724,"body":"... CDC. He ran all of these things."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":933.724,"endTime":934.344,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":935.024,"endTime":937.903,"body":"And had this billion-dollar budget and"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":937.903,"endTime":942.403,"body":"big staffs. And in the mid-'60s, for political reasons, LBJ"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":942.403,"endTime":946.063,"body":"decided to move all this stuff onto a political appointee, who"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":946.063,"endTime":949.244,"body":"was an assistant secretary, who could easily be pushed about."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":949.244,"endTime":952.203,"body":"And this very sort of glamorous, old-fashioned title, this guy"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":952.203,"endTime":954.083,"body":"just floats around, and he can make speeches, and maybe has"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":954.083,"endTime":957.403,"body":"half a dozen staff. Koop, of course, didn't know this, and so"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":957.403,"endTime":959.543,"body":"what Koop did in office essentially was to put the"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":959.543,"endTime":962.484,"body":"office back together again because of his force of"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":962.484,"endTime":963.244,"body":"personality."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":963.244,"endTime":966.303,"body":"Yes. Now, his... You mention in the book that his"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":966.303,"endTime":968.303,"body":"approach to abortion"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":969.083,"endTime":973.024,"body":"changed slightly once he became surgeon general and was more in,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":973.024,"endTime":976.403,"body":"in the public eye. Tell us a little bit about how you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":976.403,"endTime":978.203,"body":"see that shift taking place."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":978.203,"endTime":979.134,"body":"It's complicated. I think one could"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":979.134,"endTime":981.254,"body":"write another book just about this question, 'cause it's"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":981.254,"endTime":984.224,"body":"a really interesting question, and it's very complicated. And I"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":984.224,"endTime":984.783,"body":"believe,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":985.653,"endTime":987.703,"body":"We, we tend to think people are ultimately very rational, and"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":987.703,"endTime":990.903,"body":"when you start writing history about people, you realize maybe"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":990.903,"endTime":993.453,"body":"they didn't, they didn't know what they're doing. You know?"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":993.453,"endTime":995.644,"body":"And I don't know whether he had really sorted out his thinking"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":995.644,"endTime":998.903,"body":"in the sort of way that we would like him to have. And"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":998.903,"endTime":1001.844,"body":"there's a widespread view that he basically went liberal,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1001.844,"endTime":1003.644,"body":"got Potomac fever, thought, \"This is great. I've got a lot"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1003.644,"endTime":1005.663,"body":"of power. Let's forget about these things,\" which isn't at"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1005.663,"endTime":1006.844,"body":"all true."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1007.563,"endTime":1010.364,"body":"He obviously thought he was gonna be more liable to be"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1010.364,"endTime":1012.943,"body":"confirmed if he promised people he wasn't gonna talk about"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1012.943,"endTime":1017.124,"body":"abortion, but I think it wasn't primarily that. I think he had"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1017.124,"endTime":1019.764,"body":"this naive notion, and I think he retained it the rest of his"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1019.764,"endTime":1023.004,"body":"life, that being made surgeon general was not really a"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1023.004,"endTime":1026.324,"body":"political appointment. It was kind of promotion in the medical"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1026.324,"endTime":1030.223,"body":"community. And it was as if the country was saying to him,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1030.223,"endTime":1033.223,"body":"\"You're such a, such a great guy, we now want you to be our"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1033.223,"endTime":1035.903,"body":"top public health doctor.\" And it's as if he sort of Googled"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1035.903,"endTime":1039.634,"body":"public health and run down... Wrote a checklist and thought,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1039.634,"endTime":1041.982,"body":"\"Well, I can do all of these things,\" and began making a list"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1041.982,"endTime":1045.364,"body":"of things to do. And he would say, \"I still think abortion's"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1045.364,"endTime":1047.884,"body":"terrible. If I talk about abortion, it will undercut my"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1047.884,"endTime":1050.344,"body":"credibility on other issues. Other issues are also"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1050.344,"endTime":1051.263,"body":"important.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1051.263,"endTime":1053.304,"body":"Now, you point out, and one thing that I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1053.304,"endTime":1056.064,"body":"didn't, I didn't know anything about, was that he took on s-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1056.064,"endTime":1060.903,"body":"the tobacco companies shortly after he became surgeon general."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1060.903,"endTime":1063.624,"body":"And that, I mean, that... He g- I mean, he's criticized on the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1063.624,"endTime":1066.864,"body":"left for his, for life views, but he was criticized on the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1066.864,"endTime":1071.163,"body":"right for taking on smoking. I mean, he went toe-to-toe with"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1071.163,"endTime":1071.923,"body":"the companies, and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1072.584,"endTime":1076.124,"body":"I think it's, it's, From what you point out in the book,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1076.124,"endTime":1078.884,"body":"it's, I think it's fair to say that he became... He's the one"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1078.884,"endTime":1082.544,"body":"who sort of put the anti-smoking movement on the map."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1082.544,"endTime":1084.023,"body":"Yeah. Yeah, basically, he created the"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1084.023,"endTime":1085.913,"body":"anti-abortion movement, and then he created the anti-smoking"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1085.913,"endTime":1090.084,"body":"movement. [chuckles] yeah, so he, The one legal thing the"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1090.084,"endTime":1094.378,"body":"surgeon general had to do-... Significant public thing was"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1094.378,"endTime":1096.719,"body":"sign an annual report on tobacco. And this go way back,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1096.719,"endTime":1099.98,"body":"way back. Didn't write it, and it wasn't even his staff who"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1099.98,"endTime":1100.5,"body":"wrote it."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1100.5,"endTime":1100.679,"body":"No?"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1100.679,"endTime":1103.099,"body":"But he was given it to sign. So his predecessors"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1103.099,"endTime":1105.419,"body":"would just sign this thing and make a little speech."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1106.079,"endTime":1108.898,"body":"But Koop thought about this. He thought, \"How can I get back in"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1108.898,"endTime":1110.019,"body":"the good graces of the press"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1110.619,"endTime":1114.73,"body":"and get my reputation back?\" And he was pretty smart. I mean, he,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1114.73,"endTime":1117.159,"body":"he was often quite naive politically, but sometimes he"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1117.159,"endTime":1120.289,"body":"really got it right, and this was brilliant. And so,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1120.819,"endTime":1123.659,"body":"I spoke to a guy called Don Shopland, who is mercifully"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1123.659,"endTime":1125.74,"body":"still around, in fact, edited a book recently on some of"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1125.74,"endTime":1129.279,"body":"these issues. And he was the young guy who was sent in with"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1129.279,"endTime":1133.079,"body":"this report to give to Koop and say, \"Please sign.\" And Koop"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1133.079,"endTime":1135.079,"body":"said, \"I'm gonna have a look at it,\" and he went back, and on"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1135.079,"endTime":1137.559,"body":"every page, there were little stickies and scribbles and"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1137.559,"endTime":1141.759,"body":"questions of this hundreds of page report. And, so, and then"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1141.759,"endTime":1143.909,"body":"he goes to a press conference. Don Shopland wonderfully says,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1143.909,"endTime":1146.359,"body":"and I think I have this in the book, \"That if ever there was a"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1146.359,"endTime":1149.159,"body":"press conference where someone really knew his shit, that was"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1149.159,"endTime":1150.069,"body":"the press conference.\" [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1150.069,"endTime":1150.289,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1150.289,"endTime":1151.439,"body":"Okay?"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1152.0,"endTime":1152.269,"body":"And"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1153.839,"endTime":1157.478,"body":"so his boss, the assistant secretary, who had all the power"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1157.478,"endTime":1160.138,"body":"that surgery used to have, begins a press conference and"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1160.138,"endTime":1161.959,"body":"says, \"Well, here we have a surgeon general, and he'll make"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1161.959,"endTime":1165.459,"body":"his own little speech.\" And one of, one historian of surgeon"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1165.459,"endTime":1169.259,"body":"generals says he'd play his big part. Koop, of course,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1169.259,"endTime":1172.539,"body":"didn't know how to play a big part, so he just took control of"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1172.539,"endTime":1174.279,"body":"the meeting with his booming voice"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1175.079,"endTime":1180.279,"body":"and some fairy-telling prose about this, the damage this is"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1180.279,"endTime":1184.319,"body":"doing to American health, to the American economy, and on and on."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1184.319,"endTime":1184.559,"body":"So"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1185.759,"endTime":1188.519,"body":"as one writer put it, he changed the relationship between the"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1188.519,"endTime":1191.628,"body":"American government and one of America's most powerful"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1191.628,"endTime":1193.919,"body":"industries in an hour."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1193.919,"endTime":1194.759,"body":"Amazing."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1194.759,"endTime":1197.599,"body":"And it's all about the press. So you go to"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1197.599,"endTime":1200.339,"body":"the Post and The Times the next day, and I get one... I forget"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1200.339,"endTime":1203.109,"body":"which is which, but both of them has this on the front page."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1203.759,"endTime":1206.519,"body":"And in one of them, the assistant secretary, his boss,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1206.519,"endTime":1210.679,"body":"had to go to paragraph four to find his name. And, and, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1210.679,"endTime":1213.219,"body":"that was the Post. And in the Times, had to go to paragraph"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1213.219,"endTime":1213.599,"body":"six,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1214.74,"endTime":1216.5,"body":"'cause this was Koop."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1216.5,"endTime":1216.919,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1216.919,"endTime":1218.959,"body":"And Koop said, \"After that, the press was"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1218.959,"endTime":1221.138,"body":"always on my side.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1221.138,"endTime":1224.5,"body":"And, yeah, I mean, I think if that by itself"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1224.5,"endTime":1227.378,"body":"would be a legacy that's, that's really worth celebrating. Now,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1227.378,"endTime":1230.679,"body":"he took on another very controversial cause,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1231.259,"endTime":1234.359,"body":"not, again, not too long after he became surgeon general, with"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1234.359,"endTime":1237.579,"body":"the out- when the outbreak of AIDS took place. What... And,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1237.579,"endTime":1242.378,"body":"and he got roundly criticized by the right for that. I think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1242.378,"endTime":1245.138,"body":"maybe more for things he didn't do than more for things he"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1245.138,"endTime":1247.679,"body":"did do, but tell us a little bit about that. What was that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1247.679,"endTime":1248.898,"body":"journey like for him?"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1249.799,"endTime":1252.039,"body":"It was a very difficult thing, and in fact,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1252.039,"endTime":1254.239,"body":"you know, Harold J. Brown, who was close to him and quite"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1254.239,"endTime":1256.099,"body":"critical of him in some ways,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1256.898,"endTime":1257.48,"body":"Joe,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1258.759,"endTime":1261.398,"body":"Joe wrote somewhere that he thought Koop found this very"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1261.398,"endTime":1266.219,"body":"hard because he suffered with those he was with. And he was"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1266.219,"endTime":1267.878,"body":"used to suffering with handicapped babies-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1267.878,"endTime":1267.939,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1268.659,"endTime":1270.919,"body":"... And I was suffering with gay"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1270.919,"endTime":1274.119,"body":"guys who were dying of AIDS, and I think this is part of what"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1274.119,"endTime":1278.359,"body":"happened. But he had an immense compassion, and some would say"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1278.359,"endTime":1282.759,"body":"Joe, so it warps judgment. I don't think that's"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1282.759,"endTime":1283.5,"body":"what happened, but anyway,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1284.398,"endTime":1286.0,"body":"until 1986,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1287.039,"endTime":1289.339,"body":"well, till the end of '85, he was told he couldn't talk about"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1289.339,"endTime":1294.179,"body":"AIDS. His bosses were doing all this, and the White House played"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1294.179,"endTime":1297.019,"body":"it down, although I have evidence in here, this has not"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1297.019,"endTime":1299.779,"body":"been published before, that actually,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1301.019,"endTime":1304.878,"body":"it was, it was HHS that stopped the White House from talking"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1304.878,"endTime":1307.239,"body":"about AIDS earlier. There's an interesting discussion, sort of"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1307.239,"endTime":1310.179,"body":"inside baseball discussion, about what was going on there,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1310.179,"endTime":1313.059,"body":"and Reagan's been blamed, I think inappropriately, for not"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1313.059,"endTime":1314.259,"body":"taking it too seriously. But"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1315.099,"endTime":1317.119,"body":"anyway, this is handed to Koop, and"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1317.679,"endTime":1320.239,"body":"whatever the abortion thing, I mean, the sort of the hard,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1320.239,"endTime":1321.539,"body":"the hard, the hard guys"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1322.059,"endTime":1324.759,"body":"in the White House, the heavy conservatives, like Gary"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1324.759,"endTime":1326.539,"body":"Bauer and so on and so forth,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1327.179,"endTime":1327.619,"body":"they,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1328.759,"endTime":1330.779,"body":"were fairly confident that Koop will come up. You know, he's a"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1330.779,"endTime":1332.739,"body":"Presbyterian elder. He'll come up saying, \"Abstinence,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1332.739,"endTime":1334.939,"body":"abstinence. It's bad stuff. You know, it's drugs, and, of"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1334.939,"endTime":1338.559,"body":"course, primarily it's gay sex.\" And this would- he'd frame the"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1338.559,"endTime":1341.878,"body":"thing in a nice way, from their point of view."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1342.519,"endTime":1345.839,"body":"And Koop sits down with all sorts of groups of people,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1345.839,"endTime":1348.48,"body":"including with the leadership of the gay community, and including"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1348.48,"endTime":1351.638,"body":"with, a guy called Jeff Levy, who's now a professor at"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1351.638,"endTime":1354.439,"body":"one of the universities in DC,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1354.439,"endTime":1357.239,"body":"who spoke very freely to me, and also the guy who was"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1357.239,"endTime":1358.71,"body":"running the, He was the"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1359.739,"endTime":1362.759,"body":"public policy guy for the Gay and Lesbian Task Force. There"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1362.759,"endTime":1366.859,"body":"was a guy who ran the minority, gay network. I've spoken to both"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1366.859,"endTime":1370.439,"body":"these guys, who mercifully survived the epidemic, and they"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1370.439,"endTime":1373.199,"body":"said this guy sat down, and he was very charming and very"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1373.199,"endTime":1375.119,"body":"smart, and they just thought he was having them on,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1376.059,"endTime":1378.359,"body":"and they suddenly realized it was for real."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1378.939,"endTime":1381.0,"body":"And he would say things like, \"You know, I don't approve of"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1381.0,"endTime":1385.599,"body":"sodomy. I don't like what you do, but I'm a doctor. God is the"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1385.599,"endTime":1389.378,"body":"judge. I'm gonna save your life,\" and that summarizes his"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1389.378,"endTime":1392.96,"body":"whole approach. He writes his for- report very secretly on a"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1392.96,"endTime":1395.039,"body":"standing desk in his basement."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1395.878,"endTime":1400.96,"body":"And it comes out, and, well, Ted Kennedy, who initially fought"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1400.96,"endTime":1403.339,"body":"him but then became very, kind of a, kind of almost personal"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1403.339,"endTime":1408.059,"body":"friendship there, he said the, his AIDS report hit America"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1408.059,"endTime":1409.138,"body":"like a lightning bolt."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1410.319,"endTime":1413.898,"body":"And it didn't just change the way AIDS was viewed in the US."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1413.898,"endTime":1417.059,"body":"Again, one writer has said, basically, he is, in a sense,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1417.059,"endTime":1421.059,"body":"became leader of the Republican Party on the AIDS agenda, and"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1421.059,"endTime":1423.679,"body":"the people in the White House who were trying to force it as a"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1423.679,"endTime":1427.719,"body":"sort of moral anti-gay issue, they just lost. They lost so"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1427.719,"endTime":1430.359,"body":"round after round after round. Gary Bauer wouldn't talk to me"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1430.359,"endTime":1432.5,"body":"for the book. I mean, I've met Gary Bauer in the past. He"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1432.5,"endTime":1435.939,"body":"refused to speak to me, for the book because they lost, and he,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1435.939,"endTime":1436.279,"body":"okay."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1436.279,"endTime":1437.359,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1437.359,"endTime":1438.819,"body":"And, I mean, you haven't got to agree with"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1438.819,"endTime":1441.079,"body":"everything Koop said, but Koop himself somewhat regretted some"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1441.079,"endTime":1444.059,"body":"of the things, if he hadn't been more careful in discussing,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1444.059,"endTime":1446.679,"body":"well, you know, sex education from pretty much the get-go in"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1446.679,"endTime":1450.339,"body":"school and so on, and some of that he qualified later. But he"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1450.339,"endTime":1451.138,"body":"said, \"You know,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1452.039,"endTime":1455.167,"body":"everyone isn't going to abstain-... [chuckles] and he"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1455.167,"endTime":1457.887,"body":"says, \"You know, we've got to save the life of the people who"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1457.887,"endTime":1461.567,"body":"don't abstain.\" He believed in sin, you know, and believed that"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1461.567,"endTime":1463.627,"body":"it be- it's a lack of self-control, however you want"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1463.627,"endTime":1466.827,"body":"to frame the gay sex issue. And so he said, \"We've got to"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1466.827,"endTime":1470.208,"body":"save people's lives who don't go along with our good advice.\""},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1470.208,"endTime":1473.567,"body":"And, I think it was Mike Gerson, you know, who was George W."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1473.567,"endTime":1477.528,"body":"Bush's chief speechwriter, and sadly died quite recently. Mike"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1477.528,"endTime":1480.327,"body":"said that PEPFAR, you know, the president's big AIDS relief"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1480.327,"endTime":1482.288,"body":"program, which has now been damaged under the current"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1482.288,"endTime":1485.468,"body":"administration, which has saved, I think I saw, around 25 million"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1485.468,"endTime":1488.048,"body":"African lives, something like that, would never have happened"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1488.688,"endTime":1491.867,"body":"unless Koop essentially had opened up the Republicans to a"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1491.867,"endTime":1494.647,"body":"public health approach to AIDS rather than this prejudicial"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1494.647,"endTime":1497.948,"body":"approach. So in a sense, he, you know, his influence is still out"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1497.948,"endTime":1498.607,"body":"there."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1498.607,"endTime":1500.587,"body":"Yeah, that sound, that's... I mean, that's"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1500.587,"endTime":1503.028,"body":"the issue. I think that's, that's not widely known, I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1503.028,"endTime":1505.788,"body":"think, by people who, unless you're more familiar with his"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1505.788,"endTime":1508.607,"body":"life, the impact and the legacy that that left"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1509.208,"endTime":1512.268,"body":"on the treatment of AIDS, you know, so going forward. Now, he"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1512.268,"endTime":1516.928,"body":"also, he also got heavily involved in one of the most"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1516.928,"endTime":1521.107,"body":"controversial bioethical cases, and it w- it was right in his"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1521.107,"endTime":1524.948,"body":"lane as a pediatric surgeon with the Baby Doe controversy. So and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1524.948,"endTime":1529.548,"body":"what was that about, and how did he get involved in that?"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1529.548,"endTime":1532.647,"body":"Well, he... It, it is, I think it's, it's"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1532.647,"endTime":1535.488,"body":"amusing, at least, you know, one has, one has to be amused by"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1535.488,"endTime":1538.807,"body":"some of these stories because he had said goodbye to pediatric"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1538.807,"endTime":1541.367,"body":"surgery and babies and so on. He was not going to talk about"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1541.367,"endTime":1541.768,"body":"abortion,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1542.528,"endTime":1545.667,"body":"and he had, as a pediatric surgeon, fought very strongly"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1545.667,"endTime":1548.948,"body":"against those who wanted to abandon handicapped babies and"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1548.948,"endTime":1551.917,"body":"put them in the corner of the ward, and so on and so forth."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1551.917,"endTime":1552.107,"body":"How-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1552.107,"endTime":1553.948,"body":"Which, which was become- which was just beginning"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1553.948,"endTime":1555.288,"body":"to become, I think, more common."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1555.288,"endTime":1556.768,"body":"I mean, quite hot out."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1557.708,"endTime":1557.928,"body":"And"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1559.008,"endTime":1561.867,"body":"all of a sudden, a case comes up from Indiana,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1562.627,"endTime":1564.928,"body":"of a little baby, who ends up being called Baby Doe because"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1564.928,"endTime":1569.518,"body":"they didn't want to use the name, who's born and who,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1570.607,"endTime":1573.948,"body":"has a couple of different handicaps, one of which blocks,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1573.948,"endTime":1578.847,"body":"blocks his capacity to eat, and therefore, he can sort of not be"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1578.847,"endTime":1582.077,"body":"fed. I mean, if you don't feed him, he will, he will die. If"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1582.077,"endTime":1586.307,"body":"you don't treat the blockage, he will die, and after, I mean, six"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1586.307,"endTime":1589.428,"body":"days, he dies. And there's a big fight in the hospital. There's a"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1589.428,"endTime":1591.788,"body":"judge involved. The doctors all are screaming at each other."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1591.788,"endTime":1593.667,"body":"Parents side with a doctor,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1594.307,"endTime":1597.607,"body":"that the baby should just be treated by not being treated."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1597.607,"endTime":1600.607,"body":"Baby dies, and this causes a huge furor. I mean, there were"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1601.127,"endTime":1604.347,"body":"lawyers flying to the US Supreme Court"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1605.907,"endTime":1607.376,"body":"the night the baby dies."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1608.037,"endTime":1610.188,"body":"I mean, they had an appointment with Justice Souter, I think it"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1610.188,"endTime":1613.847,"body":"was. I mean, this... It was that kind of issue from the start,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1613.847,"endTime":1617.357,"body":"and you had maybe a dozen families in Indiana offering to"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1617.357,"endTime":1621.387,"body":"adopt the baby in a sight unseen, but the parents were"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1621.387,"endTime":1624.647,"body":"determined the baby should die. And so this exploded, and it"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1624.647,"endTime":1626.768,"body":"caused ruptions, but Koop was not allowed to manage it,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1627.607,"endTime":1629.907,"body":"partly because he really didn't get on with the then Secretary"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1629.907,"endTime":1631.988,"body":"of Health and Human Services, who was a lady, who"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1631.988,"endTime":1634.647,"body":"ex-congressman, who a congresslady, and she"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1634.647,"endTime":1636.127,"body":"didn't like [chuckles] him-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1636.127,"endTime":1636.147,"body":"Her-"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1636.147,"endTime":1637.788,"body":"But it was, it was, it was mutual. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1637.788,"endTime":1639.907,"body":"You, you had a, you had a long discussion of that in"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1639.907,"endTime":1640.307,"body":"the book."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1640.307,"endTime":1640.647,"body":"After-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1640.647,"endTime":1641.257,"body":"Very interesting"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1641.257,"endTime":1643.508,"body":"... After about a year of fighting about this"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1643.508,"endTime":1647.067,"body":"and various proposals they make, 'cause Reagan, I'm sure under"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1647.067,"endTime":1649.548,"body":"the impress of the pro-life movement, you know, behind the"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1649.548,"endTime":1652.988,"body":"scenes- ... And his Attorney General, William French Smith,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1652.988,"endTime":1655.127,"body":"came up with all sorts of regulations and instructions,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1655.127,"endTime":1658.288,"body":"and so on and so forth. Finally, Koop, apparently on a flight"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1658.288,"endTime":1661.968,"body":"back from Egypt or somewhere, goes, walks along the aircraft"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1661.968,"endTime":1663.548,"body":"to where the secretary is sitting,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1664.087,"endTime":1667.748,"body":"and kneels down behind her and says, \"Please, let me do this.\""},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1667.748,"endTime":1670.376,"body":"He says, \"I'm being blamed anyway for the policy here.\""},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1671.596,"endTime":1673.548,"body":"And in the end, he gets to handle it, and he does a"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1673.548,"endTime":1677.988,"body":"compromise, which he says he gets 90% of what he wants, and"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1677.988,"endTime":1680.268,"body":"they're gonna set up advisory groups and this and that and the"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1680.268,"endTime":1683.468,"body":"other. A lot of the pro-lifers did not like this at all. They"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1683.468,"endTime":1684.768,"body":"really did not. They thought he was-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1684.768,"endTime":1685.788,"body":"Because of the 10%."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1685.788,"endTime":1686.307,"body":"Because of the 10%."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1686.307,"endTime":1686.748,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1686.748,"endTime":1689.208,"body":"Because 10%. Koop said, \"I'd much rather get"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1689.208,"endTime":1691.367,"body":"the 10%, thank you very much,\" and he was, again, it's a"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1691.367,"endTime":1693.567,"body":"pragmatist on those sort... He's a clinician. I"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1693.567,"endTime":1695.258,"body":"mean, this is what you do. He's taking an operation, what the"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1695.258,"endTime":1699.327,"body":"risk is. And just so this thing went, it's interesting,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1699.327,"endTime":1701.448,"body":"controversy, because it went through all three branches of"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1701.448,"endTime":1703.978,"body":"government over several years."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1705.188,"endTime":1708.087,"body":"But in the end, they came up with a compromise, and,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1708.817,"endTime":1711.428,"body":"But Koop, I mean, poor man, I mean, here he was in his new"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1711.428,"endTime":1715.727,"body":"job, and he suddenly has his old job coming back to haunt him."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1715.727,"endTime":1718.268,"body":"Yeah. No good deed goes unpunished here."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1718.268,"endTime":1718.317,"body":"No."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1718.317,"endTime":1720.748,"body":"No good goes unpunished. Now, back to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1720.748,"endTime":1725.548,"body":"abortion here for just a second. Later in his tenure as surgeon"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1725.548,"endTime":1727.528,"body":"general, he took heat"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1728.268,"endTime":1731.847,"body":"from the right on abortion as well, and that had to do with"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1731.847,"endTime":1734.528,"body":"the, I think, the 1985, '86 report"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1735.327,"endTime":1737.678,"body":"on abortion and its effect on women."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1737.678,"endTime":1738.347,"body":"Yeah, a little later."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1738.347,"endTime":1738.897,"body":"That, so-"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1738.897,"endTime":1738.968,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1738.968,"endTime":1740.077,"body":"... Tell us about that, 'cause he-"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1740.077,"endTime":1740.367,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1740.367,"endTime":1741.887,"body":"... That was, that was also very"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1741.887,"endTime":1743.688,"body":"controversial. It's something he waded into."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1743.688,"endTime":1745.448,"body":"Well, he had said that he would not talk"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1745.448,"endTime":1747.307,"body":"about abortion when he was surgeon general,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1747.928,"endTime":1749.428,"body":"and he said that to everybody who would listen,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1750.107,"endTime":1751.708,"body":"and he managed not to talk about it."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1752.448,"endTime":1755.508,"body":"And then, and I think this was a little later, this"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1755.508,"endTime":1758.048,"body":"would've been '87, I think '87,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1759.867,"endTime":1762.827,"body":"obviously under pressure from the pro-life movement, some"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1762.827,"endTime":1765.307,"body":"section of the pro-life movement. They reckoned"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1766.087,"endTime":1766.807,"body":"that if you,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1767.607,"endTime":1768.647,"body":"did a proper study"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1769.288,"endTime":1769.988,"body":"and looked at,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1770.647,"endTime":1773.488,"body":"the consequences of abortion for women,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1773.488,"endTime":1776.768,"body":"psychological and physical, and so on, you could show,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1777.307,"endTime":1780.218,"body":"that it was a threat to health. There were stories about"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1780.218,"endTime":1782.508,"body":"breast cancer, and there were various sort of, sort of"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1782.508,"endTime":1785.548,"body":"negative consequences coming out of abortion. It's actually a"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1785.548,"endTime":1788.067,"body":"problematic area because abortion, I think, is pretty"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1788.067,"endTime":1791.428,"body":"plainly much safer than having a baby. So, you know, it's, it's"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1791.428,"endTime":1794.528,"body":"not a simple issue, but this- but there was a big"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1794.528,"endTime":1795.988,"body":"push to get"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1796.607,"endTime":1799.048,"body":"the White House to get him to do a report on this, and people"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1799.048,"endTime":1802.508,"body":"assumed that he would come out, you know, on the right side. And"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1802.508,"endTime":1805.728,"body":"Koop was really very angry to be asked to do this, having said he"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1805.728,"endTime":1808.387,"body":"didn't want to, and he was, he was not a modest man. \"The"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1808.387,"endTime":1810.847,"body":"president wants you to do this.\" \"Yes, well...\" Anyway, so"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1811.448,"endTime":1813.607,"body":"he tries to get out of it. He has two different briefings with"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1813.607,"endTime":1815.488,"body":"the White House officials saying, \"Well, you know, I don't"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1815.488,"endTime":1818.559,"body":"want to do this. It's too complicated.\"... He goes to see"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1818.559,"endTime":1820.579,"body":"one of the cardinals and says, \"Well, I'm just gonna have to"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1820.579,"endTime":1822.66,"body":"tell you, 'cause I'm gonna be writing a whole bunch of stuff"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1822.66,"endTime":1825.18,"body":"about contraception, just to let you know that.\" And, you know,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1825.18,"endTime":1827.009,"body":"he begins to do some of the sort of field work,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1827.799,"endTime":1830.98,"body":"and he is partly planning to produce a report on basically"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1830.98,"endTime":1832.16,"body":"how you reduce abortions,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1833.64,"endTime":1837.24,"body":"even if you can't establish causalities, and disease, and so"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1837.24,"endTime":1841.42,"body":"on. And he has someone do a review of all the studies there"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1841.42,"endTime":1844.299,"body":"were, and he concludes that basically the studies are all"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1844.299,"endTime":1847.529,"body":"prejudicial, that either you've got these pro-life guys who"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1847.529,"endTime":1850.24,"body":"wanna show that it is damaging, or you've got pro-choice"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1850.24,"endTime":1853.18,"body":"progressives who wanna show it's not. And he said, \"You have to"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1853.18,"endTime":1855.98,"body":"start again. You have to fund some stuff, progre- some,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1855.98,"endTime":1859.339,"body":"some longitudinal studies over five and 10 years if you want an"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1859.339,"endTime":1862.22,"body":"answer.\" But he kept changing his mind. It was very"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1862.22,"endTime":1864.059,"body":"un-Koop-like, I think I used that term,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1864.779,"endTime":1866.74,"body":"and his staff were quite bewildered by this and really"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1866.74,"endTime":1867.599,"body":"quite upset by it,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1868.22,"endTime":1870.68,"body":"'cause they expected him to come up with something clear."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1871.4,"endTime":1873.779,"body":"And finally, he just dawdles, and dawdles, and dawdles, and"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1873.779,"endTime":1876.069,"body":"leaves it until after the election."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1876.7,"endTime":1879.099,"body":"And I think Reagan only has maybe nine or 10 days left in"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1879.099,"endTime":1882.239,"body":"office, this is into January, and he goes to the White House"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1882.239,"endTime":1884.68,"body":"and delivers a letter, it's maybe four pages long,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1884.68,"endTime":1888.859,"body":"explaining why he can't write the report. And,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1890.299,"endTime":1892.42,"body":"because he said the evidence is not clear one way or the other."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1892.42,"endTime":1896.119,"body":"Now, you know, this is political naiveté. You know, why didn't he"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1896.119,"endTime":1898.519,"body":"ask his press secretary to look this over? Because if you say"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1898.519,"endTime":1898.819,"body":"that,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1899.46,"endTime":1902.88,"body":"the press are gonna say, \"Koop says there's no evidence that"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1902.88,"endTime":1903.73,"body":"abortion is harmful.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1904.5,"endTime":1904.519,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1904.519,"endTime":1906.539,"body":"And he drove home that evening to his house,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1906.539,"endTime":1910.299,"body":"and finds his wife in tears because the TV news is that Koop"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1910.299,"endTime":1914.079,"body":"says abortion isn't harmful. And he spends days on the phone, and"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1914.079,"endTime":1916.42,"body":"then, of course, it's all too late. And meanwhile, the"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1916.42,"endTime":1918.319,"body":"president isn't remotely interested. He's, you know,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1918.319,"endTime":1921.38,"body":"retiring, and the incoming President Bush, who Koop"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1921.38,"endTime":1923.38,"body":"reckoned he got on with quite well ... But this is politics,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1923.38,"endTime":1926.329,"body":"it was a polite relationship, has no interest in anything."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1926.9,"endTime":1929.759,"body":"And this just makes Koop quite sort of toxic for the incoming"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1929.759,"endTime":1932.48,"body":"administration, and because his appointment, you know, is a"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1932.48,"endTime":1936.589,"body":"four-year appointment, he still had, you know, up until October"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1936.589,"endTime":1940.98,"body":"or something, of the incoming president's first year to run."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1940.98,"endTime":1943.759,"body":"And the press have tried to sort of ease him out,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1944.7,"endTime":1946.65,"body":"but it all gets pretty messy after that."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1947.359,"endTime":1950.4,"body":"And I think, I think, I think Koop was beginning to find it"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1950.4,"endTime":1953.819,"body":"hard to be the ex-celebrity,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1954.519,"endTime":1957.94,"body":"and everything was getting kind of tangled in his life."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1957.94,"endTime":1959.539,"body":"Now, one- let me, let me give"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1960.059,"endTime":1963.9,"body":"maybe a f- a quick follow-up on that. I wonder, put yourself"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1963.9,"endTime":1967.7,"body":"in his place if he were here today. I wonder, would he say"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1967.7,"endTime":1968.579,"body":"something different"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1969.299,"endTime":1972.299,"body":"about the impact of abortion on women today, given some of the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1972.299,"endTime":1976.319,"body":"data that we have today, or do you think he would still hold to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1976.319,"endTime":1978.72,"body":"that view that he did in the letter?"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1980.24,"endTime":1981.839,"body":"Well, I think he'd be very interested in the"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1981.839,"endTime":1985.279,"body":"data, and in fact, in the book, I do refer to some really"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1985.279,"endTime":1989.599,"body":"interesting data. Because, about 20 years after all this"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1989.599,"endTime":1994.94,"body":"happened, a group of feminist researchers got together, and"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1994.94,"endTime":1996.18,"body":"they produced,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":1996.839,"endTime":2000.608,"body":"a thing called the Turnaway Study, which which was made into"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2000.608,"endTime":2004.039,"body":"a book. This wasn't just a research paper, and it's a"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2004.039,"endTime":2007.299,"body":"fascinating study. And they say in the introduction, \"Koop said"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2007.299,"endTime":2010.259,"body":"we'd have to do a new study to find out what the sequelae"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2010.259,"endTime":2014.9,"body":"really were, and we've done that study.\" And what they did was,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2014.9,"endTime":2017.759,"body":"they went to abortion clinics all over, all over the country,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2017.759,"endTime":2018.69,"body":"and they"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2019.2,"endTime":2022.7,"body":"went in the waiting rooms, and they found women who went ahead"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2022.7,"endTime":2027.299,"body":"with an abortion at a late-ish sort of stage, and women who"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2027.299,"endTime":2031.339,"body":"were turned away, either because of the state law or because of"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2031.339,"endTime":2033.72,"body":"the competency of the clinic. \"No, we don't do them over 20"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2033.72,"endTime":2035.759,"body":"weeks,\" or something, yeah, but women do ... Were getting turned"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2035.759,"endTime":2038.88,"body":"away. And they compared these two groups, those who had the"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2038.88,"endTime":2040.92,"body":"abortion 'cause they wanted it, and those who didn't, even"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2040.92,"endTime":2043.4,"body":"though they really wanted it at this late stage, and they were"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2043.4,"endTime":2047.94,"body":"astonished by the result. So was I, [chuckles] 'cause the result"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2047.94,"endTime":2049.78,"body":"isn't... The, the writers say this,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2050.3,"endTime":2051.44,"body":"that 12 months after"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2052.059,"endTime":2053.699,"body":"the birth of the baby,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2054.519,"endTime":2056.619,"body":"the women who've had the baby, who've sort of been forced to"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2056.619,"endTime":2060.659,"body":"have the baby, their sort of psychological condition is"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2060.659,"endTime":2063.219,"body":"exactly the same as women who got the abortion 'cause they"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2063.219,"endTime":2065.42,"body":"wanted it, and they were astonished by this. Of course,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2065.42,"endTime":2067.679,"body":"it's all about the power of babies. Koop would certainly"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2067.679,"endTime":2070.42,"body":"have said that. I mean, he speaks a lot of the power of"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2070.42,"endTime":2073.619,"body":"handicapped children to basically create an emotional"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2073.619,"endTime":2075.48,"body":"world for their parents. So none of this is understand from the"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2075.48,"endTime":2077.98,"body":"outside, but it's a really int- this Turnaway Study is really"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2077.98,"endTime":2079.778,"body":"interesting. The pro-life movement didn't like it for"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2079.778,"endTime":2082.719,"body":"other reasons. I think they should have made much more use"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2082.719,"endTime":2084.44,"body":"of these results."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2084.44,"endTime":2085.98,"body":"Yeah, no, I think you could ... You, you can make"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2085.98,"endTime":2086.809,"body":"the case that,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2087.96,"endTime":2090.739,"body":"w- you know, the, some of the harms for women are... Now,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2090.739,"endTime":2092.86,"body":"that's an important component, but"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2093.619,"endTime":2097.42,"body":"maybe incidental to the central issue in the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2097.42,"endTime":2098.019,"body":"pro-life movement."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2098.019,"endTime":2099.699,"body":"Well, actually, I, Koop would say"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2099.699,"endTime":2102.46,"body":"this. He said, \"For K-\" He said, \"This is about killing babies."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2102.46,"endTime":2103.46,"body":"You see, it's not about-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2103.46,"endTime":2103.528,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2103.528,"endTime":2105.76,"body":"... B- messing up, making women a bit upset or"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2105.76,"endTime":2108.38,"body":"giving them sort of minor surgical complications. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2108.38,"endTime":2111.079,"body":"it's about killing babies. That's the issue.\" And why is"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2111.079,"endTime":2112.92,"body":"it, why... Now, of course, the pro-life movement is trying to"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2112.92,"endTime":2115.94,"body":"do political things here, and, it's very interesting. You know,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2115.94,"endTime":2118.099,"body":"Jack Wilkie, you know, who ran National Right to Life, and"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2118.099,"endTime":2120.32,"body":"whom I knew somewhat, and I have a lot of respect for Jack"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2120.32,"endTime":2123.599,"body":"Wilkie. He was a very, reflective, sort of astute"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2123.599,"endTime":2127.94,"body":"individual, not knee-jerk, and he knew Koop, and he was"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2127.94,"endTime":2131.26,"body":"disappointed by Koop's report. But he said, \"He's basically"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2131.26,"endTime":2133.9,"body":"right, that the evidence does not...\" And he said, \"There were"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2133.9,"endTime":2137.42,"body":"other things he could have done in the report.\" but he accepted"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2137.42,"endTime":2140.3,"body":"that in terms of the data, Koop was, Koop was not, you"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2140.3,"endTime":2142.5,"body":"know, was not messing about."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2142.5,"endTime":2144.519,"body":"Nigel, this has been, this has been so"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2144.519,"endTime":2148.76,"body":"fascinating. I so appreciate your... The deep dive you did"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2148.76,"endTime":2151.4,"body":"into the life of this very complicated person. Let me, let"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2151.4,"endTime":2155.099,"body":"me ask one final question. What, what would you say would be"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2155.099,"endTime":2157.469,"body":"maybe the top one or two takeaways"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2158.199,"endTime":2161.519,"body":"from Dr. Koop's life that you would want the reader to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2161.519,"endTime":2164.519,"body":"make sure that they get?"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2164.519,"endTime":2166.019,"body":"Well, writing this biography has got me"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2166.019,"endTime":2167.739,"body":"interested in biographies, and I'm now writing another"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2167.739,"endTime":2170.46,"body":"biography, and I think, \"Why do we write biographies? Why do we"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2170.46,"endTime":2173.96,"body":"read biographies?\" And I think there's nothing quite like this"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2173.96,"endTime":2177.639,"body":"for understanding the course of the arc of our human lives, for"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2177.639,"endTime":2181.21,"body":"putting the pieces together, for working out what is a good life,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2181.21,"endTime":2182.969,"body":"and for getting some sort of, you know,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2183.48,"endTime":2186.46,"body":"flashing red signals about what you don't wanna do. Now, Koop"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2186.46,"endTime":2189.963,"body":"did not that well with his kids.... He got married again"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2189.963,"endTime":2193.103,"body":"when he was 93. His wife had died, 93, and his two sons would"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2193.103,"endTime":2194.824,"body":"not go to the wedding."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2194.824,"endTime":2194.923,"body":"Really?"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2194.923,"endTime":2197.003,"body":"I mean, this was a difficult situation."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2197.003,"endTime":2197.304,"body":"Now,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2198.123,"endTime":2199.483,"body":"it wasn't all bad, but I mean,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2200.443,"endTime":2202.543,"body":"you know, when the kids were small, he was never- I mean,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2202.543,"endTime":2205.202,"body":"literally never around, never home, never home. I mean, you-"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2205.202,"endTime":2207.563,"body":"there are takeaways like that. How can you lead the good"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2207.563,"endTime":2211.623,"body":"life and even be successful and be busy? But things really"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2211.623,"endTime":2217.304,"body":"matter, and you see, when he was an only child, and his dad would"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2217.304,"endTime":2220.684,"body":"spend many of his lunchtimes in the public library in New York,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2220.684,"endTime":2222.983,"body":"looking up answers to his son's questions."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2222.983,"endTime":2224.503,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2224.503,"endTime":2226.784,"body":"I don't think he ever really understood the"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2226.784,"endTime":2227.923,"body":"profound difference"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2228.704,"endTime":2232.844,"body":"in the family experience his own children had, and this made him"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2232.844,"endTime":2234.164,"body":"sad, and it's one reason why"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2234.764,"endTime":2237.204,"body":"the pastor who was closest to him in his final"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2237.204,"endTime":2239.764,"body":"years said for his final years, he was profoundly depressed."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2240.983,"endTime":2243.623,"body":"So I think we learned this. Throughout my work on the book,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2243.623,"endTime":2246.103,"body":"partly 'cause I knew him, I'd imagine myself presenting him"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2246.103,"endTime":2247.603,"body":"with the chapters and asking him for his view"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2248.724,"endTime":2253.364,"body":"and saying, \"Is this fair?\" I think Chick would say yes, and I"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2253.364,"endTime":2256.744,"body":"was very pleased that his widow, Cora, whom I've got to know"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2256.744,"endTime":2260.003,"body":"really quite well, she was-- she was very content with, content"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2260.003,"endTime":2260.483,"body":"with the book-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2260.483,"endTime":2260.914,"body":"Well, that-"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2260.914,"endTime":2262.123,"body":"... Which meant a lot to me."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2262.123,"endTime":2263.224,"body":"Now, that's a huge win."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2263.224,"endTime":2265.543,"body":"Yeah, 'cause I wasn't pasting over his"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2265.543,"endTime":2268.034,"body":"foibles and his arrogance and his-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2268.034,"endTime":2268.034,"body":"Oh"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2268.034,"endTime":2271.684,"body":"... All that, but I think he led a good life,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2271.684,"endTime":2274.324,"body":"and, I think we can be grateful to God for that."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2274.324,"endTime":2276.603,"body":"Well, and I think his-- the legacy that he"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2276.603,"endTime":2281.103,"body":"left, where he basically created a good bit of the evangelical"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2281.103,"endTime":2284.923,"body":"pro-life movement. He created the anti-smoking campaign. He,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2284.923,"endTime":2287.443,"body":"he had a huge impact on the treatment of AIDS"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2287.983,"endTime":2291.943,"body":"and public health. Those, those are pretty significant legacies"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2291.943,"endTime":2296.123,"body":"for not that long a time period, when he, when he was surgeon"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2296.123,"endTime":2297.494,"body":"general and that time proceeded."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2297.494,"endTime":2299.143,"body":"I'll give you one little, one little tell"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2299.143,"endTime":2303.463,"body":"for his story. So when he was 94, and he was remarried, he was"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2303.463,"endTime":2306.023,"body":"invited to the wedding of a young colleague of his,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2307.003,"endTime":2308.324,"body":"and,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2309.244,"endTime":2313.083,"body":"the, I think it was the man's father was welcoming him"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2313.083,"endTime":2316.284,"body":"and celebrating and getting him a nice whiskey,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2316.284,"endTime":2318.063,"body":"which is what he was up for that night."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2318.844,"endTime":2321.023,"body":"And he said, \"You know, this is Dr. Koop, and he saved millions"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2321.023,"endTime":2325.483,"body":"of lives.\" And Koop, who was never a man to be unduly"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2326.403,"endTime":2327.164,"body":"modest, said,"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2327.884,"endTime":2331.884,"body":"\"I think you're probably right.\" [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2331.884,"endTime":2335.083,"body":"[laughing] That, that's, that's quite, it's quite"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2335.083,"endTime":2338.864,"body":"a legacy that he's left. Well, I wanna, I wanna really encourage"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2338.864,"endTime":2341.643,"body":"our listeners to pick up the book by Dr. Nigel Cameron,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2341.643,"endTime":2344.943,"body":"entitled Dr. Koop- The Many Lives of the Surgeon General."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2344.943,"endTime":2349.244,"body":"It's a great read. You-- for your first time through, I think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2349.244,"endTime":2352.103,"body":"you've ma- you've mastered the art of being a biographer 'cause"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2352.103,"endTime":2355.884,"body":"it is super interesting to read. And, you know, having sort of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2355.884,"endTime":2359.264,"body":"come of age in my own interest in bioethics during the time"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2359.264,"endTime":2360.824,"body":"period when he was surgeon general,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2361.384,"endTime":2363.364,"body":"you know, I lived through a lot of those, a lot of those"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2363.364,"endTime":2366.983,"body":"controversies, and it just, it is such an interesting read, so"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2366.983,"endTime":2369.724,"body":"I highly commend that to our listeners. Nigel, thanks so much"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2369.724,"endTime":2372.324,"body":"for being with us, taking the time to do this. What an"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2372.324,"endTime":2373.503,"body":"interesting conversation."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2373.503,"endTime":2375.724,"body":"It's been great. We can be grateful to have such"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2375.724,"endTime":2377.344,"body":"a wonderful man to talk about."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2377.344,"endTime":2377.784,"body":"Hear, hear."},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2377.784,"endTime":2380.043,"body":"And, we can hope we can, you know, live up to his"},{"speaker":"Nigel Cameron","startTime":2380.043,"endTime":2381.063,"body":"example. Thank you."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2381.063,"endTime":2384.558,"body":"This has been an episode of the podcast Think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2384.558,"endTime":2387.664,"body":"Biblically- Conversations on Faith and Culture, brought to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2387.664,"endTime":2390.77,"body":"you by Talbot School of Theology, Biola University,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2390.77,"endTime":2393.877,"body":"offering programs in Southern California and online. Visit"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2393.877,"endTime":2397.371,"body":"biola.edu/talbot in order to learn more. To submit comments,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2397.371,"endTime":2400.866,"body":"ask questions, or make suggestions on issues you'd like"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2400.866,"endTime":2405.913,"body":"us to cover or guests you'd like us to consider, please email us"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2405.913,"endTime":2408.631,"body":"at thinkbiblically@biola.edu. If you enjoyed today's conversation"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2408.631,"endTime":2412.902,"body":"with our friend, Dr. Nigel Cameron, please give us a rating"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2412.902,"endTime":2418.338,"body":"on your podcast app and share it with a friend, and join us on"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2418.338,"endTime":2422.221,"body":"Friday for our weekly cultural update. In the meantime, thanks"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2422.221,"endTime":2424.939,"body":"for listening, and remember, think biblically about"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2424.939,"endTime":2426.103,"body":"everything. [upbeat music]"}]}