{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":0.3,"endTime":4.839,"body":"[upbeat music] AI has taken the world by storm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4.839,"endTime":7.9,"body":"What technology is on the horizon? What is positive with"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":7.9,"endTime":11.539,"body":"AI technology, and where should we be concerned? How can we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":11.539,"endTime":16.039,"body":"wisely and biblically navigate our cultural moment? With me"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":16.039,"endTime":20.42,"body":"today are three experts from different fields- business,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":20.42,"endTime":24.239,"body":"science, and philosophy, who are leading the way in how we think"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":24.239,"endTime":28.44,"body":"about, develop, and engage AI technology. Gentlemen, thanks"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":28.44,"endTime":31.379,"body":"for being willing to have this conversation."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":31.379,"endTime":32.02,"body":"Thanks for having us."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":32.02,"endTime":32.618,"body":"Yeah, great to be here."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":33.119,"endTime":35.039,"body":"Let's jump in. Briefly explain-- I'm going to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":35.039,"endTime":39.0,"body":"have you introduce yourselves, and just talk about how AI has"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":39.0,"endTime":40.1,"body":"revolutionized"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":40.719,"endTime":42.46,"body":"your field. Johan?"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":42.46,"endTime":45.5,"body":"Yeah, Johan Lee. I'm the Associate Dean of Technology"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":45.5,"endTime":48.6,"body":"here at Biola School of Science, Technology, and Health,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":49.439,"endTime":53.359,"body":"Computer Science. I, teach computer science, I teach AI,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":53.359,"endTime":55.979,"body":"and the way it's revolutionized it is,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":56.939,"endTime":59.52,"body":"on the one hand, from a student perspective,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":60.78,"endTime":62.859,"body":"the discipline of computer science has expanded"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":62.859,"endTime":66.299,"body":"dramatically. And so, for students who are really"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":66.299,"endTime":70.719,"body":"interested in computer science, it's about learning more and"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":70.719,"endTime":73.48,"body":"delving more into math and physics, to be honest, to be"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":73.48,"endTime":77.62,"body":"able to help shape and build new na- new AIs that don't exist"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":77.62,"endTime":78.659,"body":"yet, so."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":78.659,"endTime":80.319,"body":"Yeah. How long have you been at Biola?"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":81.04,"endTime":82.48,"body":"Two and a half years now."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":82.48,"endTime":84.579,"body":"Okay, so briefly tell us a little bit of the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":84.579,"endTime":87.519,"body":"backstory, experience, and training you have that you've"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":87.519,"endTime":89.26,"body":"brought to your position now."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":89.26,"endTime":89.76,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":90.379,"endTime":93.4,"body":"Yes, so my undergraduate degree is, believe it or not, in"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":93.4,"endTime":96.299,"body":"neuroscience, predominantly i-in the areas of learning and"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":96.299,"endTime":97.519,"body":"memory. So,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":98.04,"endTime":100.0,"body":"it's almost like I was destined to go into [laughing] this"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":100.0,"endTime":100.359,"body":"space."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":100.359,"endTime":101.01,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":101.68,"endTime":105.68,"body":"Then along the way, a PhD in Big Data Analysis"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":105.68,"endTime":108.62,"body":"through bioinformatics. That's where I got my first exposure"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":108.62,"endTime":110.159,"body":"into machine learning and AI,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":110.859,"endTime":115.079,"body":"and, at that time, it worked fantastically well in a"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":115.079,"endTime":120.0,"body":"controlled experiment. And so to see what it is now has really,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":121.01,"endTime":123.299,"body":"I just can't imag- I couldn't have imagined that it would've"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":123.299,"endTime":124.87,"body":"gotten here this quickly."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":124.87,"endTime":126.459,"body":"Which makes us think, where's it going in the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":126.459,"endTime":128.78,"body":"next six months, twelve months, six years?"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":128.78,"endTime":129.24,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":129.24,"endTime":130.819,"body":"But we'll get there. Michael?"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":130.819,"endTime":131.74,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":132.28,"endTime":135.039,"body":"Michael Reina. I'm the Dean of the Crowell School of Business."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":135.039,"endTime":135.5,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":135.5,"endTime":137.68,"body":"So I'm a corporate guy. I grew up in the"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":137.68,"endTime":140.979,"body":"corporate world. I came here about three years ago-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":140.979,"endTime":141.259,"body":"Okay"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":141.259,"endTime":141.289,"body":"..."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":142.02,"endTime":144.319,"body":"Most recently from AWS, and"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":144.9,"endTime":145.159,"body":"it's completely-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":145.159,"endTime":146.159,"body":"AWS is?"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":146.159,"endTime":147.62,"body":"Amazon Web Services."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":147.62,"endTime":147.84,"body":"Got it."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":148.699,"endTime":151.62,"body":"And it just completely disrupted this field"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":151.62,"endTime":155.28,"body":"of- ... What I study, which is management science. And, you"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":155.28,"endTime":158.06,"body":"know, thinking about productivity, thinking about,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":158.78,"endTime":161.879,"body":"human efficiency, thinking about, you know, how do we get"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":161.879,"endTime":165.18,"body":"the, you know, sort of the muck out of work and get to the- ..."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":165.18,"endTime":169.159,"body":"The work of the work? So it's j- it's revolutionized the field."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":169.159,"endTime":171.759,"body":"So the word \"revolutionized\" is not an"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":171.759,"endTime":173.74,"body":"overstatement when it comes to business?"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":173.74,"endTime":174.62,"body":"Absolutely not."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":174.62,"endTime":174.979,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":174.979,"endTime":177.919,"body":"No, and I think we've only begun to see- ..."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":177.919,"endTime":179.08,"body":"What's possible."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":179.08,"endTime":180.699,"body":"We're gonna get into that. I'm really interested"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":180.699,"endTime":184.379,"body":"to see how you think it might transform business. Mehretu, our"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":184.379,"endTime":187.12,"body":"newest hire in the Apologetics program. [laughing] We did a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":187.12,"endTime":189.36,"body":"video with you, but I want you to introduce yourself again in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":189.36,"endTime":192.75,"body":"case some people missed that, and talk about kind of what--"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":192.75,"endTime":196.419,"body":"how AI has revolutionized philosophy, if you can even use"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":196.419,"endTime":197.12,"body":"that term."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":197.12,"endTime":197.52,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":198.56,"endTime":201.08,"body":"My name is Mehretu. I'm Associate Professor of"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":201.08,"endTime":204.539,"body":"Philosophy and Apologetics here at Biola. I'm a family guy, so,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":204.539,"endTime":207.86,"body":"Biola was where I studied before- ... And I came back to"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":207.86,"endTime":208.439,"body":"home."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":208.439,"endTime":209.58,"body":"You did the MPhil program?"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":209.58,"endTime":209.939,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":209.939,"endTime":210.24,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":210.24,"endTime":213.659,"body":"MPhil and also Science and Religion as well. So"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":213.659,"endTime":217.539,"body":"I have a- ... PhD in Philosophy of Mind, so I work very closely"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":217.539,"endTime":221.12,"body":"to, you know, research on AI because I cannot really ignore"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":221.12,"endTime":224.819,"body":"AI. Because there are claims like- AI can be conscious, we"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":224.819,"endTime":229.34,"body":"can upload emotions, AI is no different than you, and we can"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":229.34,"endTime":233.3,"body":"actually prove that you're inferior to AI. The, the whole"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":233.3,"endTime":236.12,"body":"premise of transhumanism is really kind of to dump human"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":236.12,"endTime":240.199,"body":"biology because it's defective design, to upgrade human biology"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":240.199,"endTime":246.0,"body":"to a new leve- new level. And, you know, computer science was"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":246.979,"endTime":249.74,"body":"born out of philosophy, so philosophers are- ... The fore-"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":250.3,"endTime":252.819,"body":"the pioneers of computer science."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":253.74,"endTime":257.3,"body":"So how can I ignore AI? I mean, I can-- honestly, like, I'll be"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":257.3,"endTime":260.72,"body":"outmoded, I'll be left over, like, if I turn my back against"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":260.72,"endTime":265.54,"body":"AI. So I work on AI research when it comes to philosophical"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":265.54,"endTime":269.779,"body":"issues, like can we really upload emotions on AI? Can"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":269.779,"endTime":274.019,"body":"consciousness be uploaded on computer gadgets and circuits?"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":274.019,"endTime":277.5,"body":"Well, I also teach philosophy of neuroscience. I teach AI as"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":277.5,"endTime":278.379,"body":"well."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":279.06,"endTime":281.48,"body":"It's impossible for me to ignore,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":282.42,"endTime":285.959,"body":"... Multidisciplinary approaches to all sorts of issues having to"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":285.959,"endTime":287.399,"body":"do with AI and human brain."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":287.399,"endTime":289.04,"body":"So philosophy of mind have been wrestling with"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":289.04,"endTime":292.339,"body":"these issues for a long time, but now, like in the past maybe"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":292.339,"endTime":295.3,"body":"two or three years, where we have tools like ChatGPT, it's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":295.3,"endTime":298.769,"body":"felt more urgent and pressing. Is that fair in your field?"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":298.769,"endTime":300.86,"body":"Well, people are predicting that we have now"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":300.86,"endTime":305.459,"body":"successfully kind of answered Turing, you know- ... Problem,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":305.459,"endTime":307.72,"body":"[clears throat] that, you know, Alan Turing actually introduced"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":307.72,"endTime":311.72,"body":"in the 1930s and '40s. We haven't. We haven't. We haven't"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":311.72,"endTime":315.699,"body":"even remotely answered that. And, that's a mimicry."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":315.699,"endTime":318.18,"body":"Like, okay, you can, you can come up with a computer, put it"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":318.18,"endTime":320.899,"body":"in a classroom, and then put another human being somewhere,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":320.899,"endTime":324.81,"body":"and, you know, you can play that toy, you know, exercise. But,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":325.6,"endTime":330.12,"body":"there are metaphysical and ontological setbacks in our way."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":330.12,"endTime":333.18,"body":"You know, we can never be in a position to create consciousness"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":333.18,"endTime":334.779,"body":"on gadgets because,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":335.3,"endTime":337.399,"body":"we do not have that metaphysical property, and-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":337.399,"endTime":338.8,"body":"Okay, now hold that thought. We're gonna come"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":338.8,"endTime":340.319,"body":"back to you because this is really important. We get into"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":340.319,"endTime":344.48,"body":"metaphysics and ontology. Will consciousness... Will AI become"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":344.48,"endTime":346.0,"body":"conscious, is a huge question."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":346.639,"endTime":349.3,"body":"Tell us maybe one or two publications. I want people to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":349.3,"endTime":352.819,"body":"understand and appreciate the kind of work that you're doing,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":352.819,"endTime":353.36,"body":"that you've done-"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":353.36,"endTime":353.389,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":353.389,"endTime":355.639,"body":"... In the past two or three years on AI."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":355.639,"endTime":356.0,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":356.86,"endTime":359.639,"body":"I am editing, a book on AI, Consciousness, and"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":359.639,"endTime":363.3,"body":"Unconsciousness with Wiley. It's a group of international"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":363.3,"endTime":367.144,"body":"thinkers, you know, from-... Discipline from neuroscience,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":367.144,"endTime":369.704,"body":"from medical science, and computer science, and all of"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":369.704,"endTime":373.403,"body":"that. And hopefully, that will be published in 2027, and I'm"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":373.403,"endTime":375.084,"body":"actually almost,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":376.343,"endTime":379.764,"body":"[lips smack] in the near future, will be able to kind of,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":380.403,"endTime":383.644,"body":"sign a contract with Bloomsbury, on AI and human"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":384.324,"endTime":384.613,"body":"flourishing."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":384.613,"endTime":386.163,"body":"If people don't know Wiley and Bloomsbury,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":386.163,"endTime":387.744,"body":"they're a highly respected-"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":387.744,"endTime":387.824,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":387.824,"endTime":389.403,"body":"-leading publications. You've done work"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":389.403,"endTime":391.963,"body":"with Cambridge. I'm just bragging on you 'cause you're in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":391.963,"endTime":393.543,"body":"my department. I want people to understand-"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":393.543,"endTime":393.713,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":393.713,"endTime":395.084,"body":"-what you bring to the table. So-"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":395.084,"endTime":397.384,"body":"I have another book coming out with Rutledge,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":397.384,"endTime":397.624,"body":"uh-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":397.624,"endTime":398.043,"body":"Excellent"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":398.043,"endTime":400.204,"body":"... And I'm submitting it next month, so I"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":400.204,"endTime":402.204,"body":"have so many other publications."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":402.204,"endTime":404.603,"body":"Good stuff. Well, I- not start, but in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":404.603,"endTime":408.024,"body":"terms of moving into the conversation, give us an example"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":408.024,"endTime":413.184,"body":"of maybe one or two areas in your field where AI has just"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":413.184,"endTime":414.843,"body":"revolutionized the way we do"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":415.483,"endTime":419.004,"body":"business or science or something that blows your mind. You"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":419.004,"endTime":421.004,"body":"mentioned maybe a couple of years ago we never could've"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":421.004,"endTime":421.923,"body":"imagined this."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":421.923,"endTime":422.264,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":422.264,"endTime":424.132,"body":"What's something you pause, and you're like,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":424.132,"endTime":426.983,"body":"\"When I was in grad school, I don't think I would've believed"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":426.983,"endTime":429.983,"body":"if somebody had told me this was possible with AI?\" Do you have"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":429.983,"endTime":432.184,"body":"an example of something like that, or am I overstating it?"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":432.184,"endTime":433.884,"body":"No, you're absolutely right. I think for"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":433.884,"endTime":438.603,"body":"me, the one that consistently impresses me and gets me excited"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":438.603,"endTime":441.944,"body":"is machine translation. So that's the ability of AI to"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":441.944,"endTime":443.124,"body":"translate,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":443.803,"endTime":447.663,"body":"linguistics from one language to another language at a level of"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":447.663,"endTime":450.624,"body":"extremely high sophistication."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":450.624,"endTime":452.444,"body":"So give us, give an example of how they would do"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":452.444,"endTime":455.843,"body":"that. My first thought goes to, like, Bible translation-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":455.843,"endTime":455.853,"body":"Yes"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":455.853,"endTime":457.744,"body":"... And how amazing that could be."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":457.744,"endTime":457.803,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":457.803,"endTime":459.944,"body":"That we've been laboring for years, and all of a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":459.944,"endTime":461.803,"body":"sudden, we have this tool."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":461.803,"endTime":462.303,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":462.303,"endTime":464.043,"body":"And, I mean, our... Maybe this is outside"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":464.043,"endTime":466.363,"body":"your field. Are people saying within our lifetime, within a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":466.363,"endTime":469.303,"body":"short period of time, we'll have the Bible in every language?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":469.303,"endTime":470.944,"body":"Does that seem doable?"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":470.944,"endTime":472.084,"body":"That's the hope, right?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":472.084,"endTime":472.884,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":472.884,"endTime":474.423,"body":"Now, of course, everything is harder than we"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":474.423,"endTime":479.704,"body":"expect, because what, predicates that capability is whether or"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":479.704,"endTime":484.863,"body":"not we have enough, of a corpus, a large body of knowledge in"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":484.863,"endTime":488.863,"body":"both languages so that you can make effective cognates, if you"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":488.863,"endTime":492.803,"body":"will. And so, in some languages, they are considered"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":492.803,"endTime":496.603,"body":"high-resource languages, like English, Spanish, et cetera. But"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":496.603,"endTime":499.543,"body":"then some languages are what we consider low-resource languages"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":499.543,"endTime":501.363,"body":"because we don't have a lot of"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":502.283,"endTime":506.684,"body":"material that spans a particular language in a"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":506.684,"endTime":510.744,"body":"digital format, such as on the internet, in text, in PDF, or in"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":510.744,"endTime":512.844,"body":"audio recordings like this. And so,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":513.663,"endTime":517.144,"body":"when it comes to low-resource languages, m- AI struggles quite"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":517.144,"endTime":520.403,"body":"a bit. But in high-resource languages, you get the"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":520.403,"endTime":524.703,"body":"difference between like conversational, translation to"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":524.703,"endTime":528.244,"body":"business translation to academic translation, and then sometimes"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":528.244,"endTime":532.323,"body":"highly nuanced, written verse, and so in that case, it could be"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":533.063,"endTime":536.573,"body":"incredibly powerful. So I hope within my lifetime we get- ..."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":536.573,"endTime":539.183,"body":"The Bible in every single language on Earth."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":539.183,"endTime":541.124,"body":"That'd be pretty amazing if we could do that."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":541.124,"endTime":545.943,"body":"I'm curious how else in science, in your field, this technology"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":545.943,"endTime":549.063,"body":"would help? 'Cause for me, I did my dissertation about ten years"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":549.063,"endTime":551.663,"body":"ago. And I had to f- I was studying the death of the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":551.663,"endTime":555.964,"body":"apostles. So I found early sources in French, German, and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":555.964,"endTime":556.504,"body":"Armenian."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":556.504,"endTime":557.083,"body":"There you go."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":557.083,"endTime":560.124,"body":"Tracked down people, and I paid them to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":560.124,"endTime":562.624,"body":"translate it word by word for me."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":562.624,"endTime":563.083,"body":"Yes. [chuckles] Yes."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":563.083,"endTime":565.244,"body":"Obviously, AI could do that in the click of a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":565.244,"endTime":565.673,"body":"button."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":565.673,"endTime":565.683,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":565.683,"endTime":566.683,"body":"But how else"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":567.203,"endTime":570.543,"body":"is this tool being helpful in the world of science and beyond?"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":570.543,"endTime":570.923,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":571.943,"endTime":573.163,"body":"In the world of science,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":574.604,"endTime":577.083,"body":"the great thing about science is a lot of it is just predicated"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":577.083,"endTime":580.803,"body":"on numbers and numerics. And so because of numbers, numerics,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":580.803,"endTime":581.563,"body":"analyses-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":582.224,"endTime":586.043,"body":"... You are able to then analyze things at a scale that we just"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":586.043,"endTime":587.183,"body":"haven't been able to do."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":587.183,"endTime":587.732,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":587.732,"endTime":588.063,"body":"And then"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":588.624,"endTime":591.504,"body":"one of the challenges in a lot of experiments over the years as"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":591.504,"endTime":594.943,"body":"we collect a lot of digital data is that you can't compare apples"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":594.943,"endTime":597.703,"body":"and oranges sometimes. But when now you get"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":598.403,"endTime":601.683,"body":"thousands and thousands of analyses, all the different"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":601.683,"endTime":605.043,"body":"possible analyses that have been conducted in a particular area"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":605.043,"endTime":608.703,"body":"of, let's say, medicine, for example, then you can actually"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":608.703,"endTime":611.624,"body":"get smarter quicker. You can find out where- ... There could"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":611.624,"endTime":614.724,"body":"be a white space, an interesting area of discovery that has not"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":614.724,"endTime":618.823,"body":"been depth, plumbed to the depth and then find novel approaches"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":618.823,"endTime":621.744,"body":"that we never considered before. That's what I find most exciting"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":621.744,"endTime":622.443,"body":"about this."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":622.443,"endTime":624.864,"body":"I saw an article about how AI was analyzing,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":624.864,"endTime":627.364,"body":"like, whale language and communication."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":627.364,"endTime":627.693,"body":"There you go. There you go."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":627.693,"endTime":630.203,"body":"And was like, \"What?\" This never crossed my"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":630.203,"endTime":630.604,"body":"mind-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":630.604,"endTime":630.614,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":630.614,"endTime":632.543,"body":"... That we could analyze the depths of it,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":632.543,"endTime":636.583,"body":"and it seemed to break new ground from my understanding-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":636.583,"endTime":636.592,"body":"Yes"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":636.592,"endTime":638.823,"body":"... Limited understanding of whale language."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":638.823,"endTime":641.083,"body":"That was the narrative, but it seems like that's just the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":641.083,"endTime":642.063,"body":"beginning in many ways."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":642.604,"endTime":646.004,"body":"Great example. Michael, you said it's not an overstatement to say"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":646.004,"endTime":650.203,"body":"that AI has revolutionized business. Give me some example"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":650.203,"endTime":652.283,"body":"of how AI just blows your mind."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":652.283,"endTime":653.724,"body":"I'm st- I'm still trying to catch up with"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":653.724,"endTime":655.214,"body":"the neuroscience and the whales. [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":655.214,"endTime":655.214,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":655.214,"endTime":656.144,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":656.144,"endTime":656.604,"body":"So-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":656.604,"endTime":657.144,"body":"There you go"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":657.144,"endTime":657.222,"body":"... So,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":658.104,"endTime":660.624,"body":"so, you know, this may sound elementary compared to those"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":660.624,"endTime":660.964,"body":"things."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":661.703,"endTime":662.783,"body":"It's, you know, it is"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":663.303,"endTime":666.083,"body":"the great equalizer from a knowledge standpoint. So just"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":666.083,"endTime":670.124,"body":"think about this. It's, it's upleveling people who are at the"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":670.124,"endTime":673.583,"body":"bottom or the beginning of, any given knowledge set, and it's"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":673.583,"endTime":677.203,"body":"moving them up to the median or above instantaneously."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":677.203,"endTime":678.783,"body":"I mean, just give- ... Like real examples."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":678.783,"endTime":679.683,"body":"Yeah, do it."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":680.453,"endTime":682.764,"body":"You know, I studied this a lot, like"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":682.764,"endTime":685.144,"body":"onboarding someone into an organization-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":685.144,"endTime":685.364,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":685.364,"endTime":686.984,"body":"... And to learn- ... What that"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":686.984,"endTime":690.443,"body":"organization does and what to do in their job. On average, you"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":690.443,"endTime":692.323,"body":"know, that's about a twenty-four-month to"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":692.323,"endTime":694.724,"body":"thirty-month horizon for me-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":694.724,"endTime":694.943,"body":"Wow"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":694.943,"endTime":697.053,"body":"... Or you to come into an organization- ..."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":697.053,"endTime":700.104,"body":"And be at, like the median of the knowledge set of that"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":700.104,"endTime":704.524,"body":"organization. People who are using AI in an AI native"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":704.524,"endTime":708.183,"body":"environment can do that in three to four months. So I mean, it's"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":708.183,"endTime":709.803,"body":"just eradicating-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":709.803,"endTime":709.894,"body":"Wow"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":709.894,"endTime":711.764,"body":"... Like, bringing people up to the,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":711.764,"endTime":712.663,"body":"just the average"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":713.244,"endTime":716.152,"body":"in such a way that they're being-... Productive more"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":716.152,"endTime":720.052,"body":"frequent or more often- -uh, up to proficiency, and they can"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":720.052,"endTime":723.251,"body":"then start to focus on other things. So, I mean, that's just"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":723.251,"endTime":724.532,"body":"one example. There are so many more."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":724.532,"endTime":726.011,"body":"So, so what would that look like? I imagine"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":726.011,"endTime":728.971,"body":"twenty-four to thirty months, I'm talking with colleagues, I'm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":728.971,"endTime":733.351,"body":"sitting in business meetings, I'm just absorbing it by being"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":733.351,"endTime":736.711,"body":"there, asking questions, maybe there's some formal training."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":736.711,"endTime":739.951,"body":"What does AI do differently that that's, what, a quarter of the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":739.951,"endTime":741.172,"body":"time, roughly?"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":741.172,"endTime":742.591,"body":"Well, I mean, you can think of knowledge as"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":742.591,"endTime":744.701,"body":"being both taught and caught."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":744.701,"endTime":744.912,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":744.912,"endTime":746.351,"body":"Like, there's, you know, there's this, you"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":746.351,"endTime":746.611,"body":"know,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":747.131,"endTime":749.792,"body":"form of knowledge where you can read it, you can study it, you"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":749.792,"endTime":753.392,"body":"know- ... And that has an uptake of whatever time"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":753.392,"endTime":756.351,"body":"frame it is. But then there's also the things that are caught-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":756.351,"endTime":756.361,"body":"Okay"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":756.361,"endTime":758.231,"body":"... Like the things that are modeled, the"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":758.231,"endTime":761.451,"body":"things that-- And AI's really helped to accelerate the"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":761.451,"endTime":763.971,"body":"learning curve on both of those. So it's, it's been quite"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":763.971,"endTime":764.851,"body":"dramatic."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":764.851,"endTime":766.471,"body":"So is this-- Just one more question. Is this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":766.471,"endTime":766.611,"body":"it-"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":766.611,"endTime":766.672,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":766.672,"endTime":769.412,"body":"... Like the leaders of businesses are using"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":769.412,"endTime":772.532,"body":"it to educate, or people are just getting online and asking"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":772.532,"endTime":776.552,"body":"questions and using AI to more quickly learn, or is this some"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":776.552,"endTime":777.591,"body":"combination of both?"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":777.591,"endTime":778.991,"body":"It's a combination of both."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":779.631,"endTime":782.422,"body":"And I think we're still trying to figure out exactly how to do"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":782.422,"endTime":782.471,"body":"this."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":782.471,"endTime":783.192,"body":"What it looks like."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":783.192,"endTime":783.552,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":783.552,"endTime":784.081,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":784.081,"endTime":785.971,"body":"So, so some organizations have figured it"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":785.971,"endTime":789.471,"body":"out and are already accelerating that learning process. Others"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":789.471,"endTime":792.601,"body":"are, you know, catching up to figure out how to do that. But,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":792.601,"endTime":796.491,"body":"but at the end of the day- ... It's made us, and I"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":796.491,"endTime":799.231,"body":"hate to say this next to my technology [laughing] friend,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":799.231,"endTime":801.871,"body":"but it's made us all technologists. Right? Like, I"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":801.871,"endTime":806.552,"body":"can go in and vibe code a website, and, you know, I know,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":806.552,"endTime":809.831,"body":"I know coding about as well as I can speak Spanish, which is just"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":809.831,"endTime":810.572,"body":"a little. [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":811.471,"endTime":814.631,"body":"and, you know, it's, it's kind of equalized the playing field-"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":814.631,"endTime":814.682,"body":"..."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":815.192,"endTime":817.871,"body":"For all kinds of different professions."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":817.871,"endTime":820.251,"body":"Oh, that's so interesting. In some ways,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":820.251,"endTime":822.751,"body":"you're right, it makes us all technologists, but it makes the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":822.751,"endTime":827.711,"body":"experts who used to be the older, seasoned, wise sages of a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":827.711,"endTime":831.812,"body":"community... We saw this shift with Gen Z, where older"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":831.812,"endTime":834.672,"body":"generations are like- \"How to use social media? How do I set"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":834.672,"endTime":837.652,"body":"up Facebook,\" in the day, \"How do I do YouTube?\" And younger"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":837.652,"endTime":841.511,"body":"generations became the expert, so it flips that on the head in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":841.511,"endTime":843.49,"body":"many ways in business as well."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":843.49,"endTime":844.111,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":844.111,"endTime":846.131,"body":"Very interesting. Now, when you talk"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":846.131,"endTime":848.412,"body":"about revolution in philosophy, these things-"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":848.412,"endTime":848.432,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":848.432,"endTime":850.471,"body":"-move a little bit more slowly-"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":850.471,"endTime":850.581,"body":"Correct"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":850.581,"endTime":851.851,"body":"... And methodically. So I wouldn't"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":851.851,"endTime":854.312,"body":"expect there to be some technology that just-"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":854.312,"endTime":854.322,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":854.322,"endTime":856.932,"body":"-flipped it on its head. But maybe give us an"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":856.932,"endTime":860.091,"body":"insight of, since AI's been here over the past two or three"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":860.091,"endTime":863.611,"body":"years, how these conversations have heated up in the world of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":863.611,"endTime":864.471,"body":"philosophy."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":864.471,"endTime":864.971,"body":"Yeah, I think,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":865.652,"endTime":868.451,"body":"So you don't see us, like, on a white gown, you know, sitting"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":868.451,"endTime":872.251,"body":"behind a kind of sophisticated lab equipment and so on, but we"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":872.251,"endTime":875.731,"body":"really think about AI because it really is giving us insights"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":875.731,"endTime":877.751,"body":"into the nature of consciousness."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":878.471,"endTime":878.672,"body":"So"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":879.27,"endTime":882.912,"body":"everything that you see around you, any, AI tool that has ever"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":882.912,"endTime":887.652,"body":"been created, is, an instance of the complexity of human"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":887.652,"endTime":891.471,"body":"consciousness- ... And nothing else. This is literally the"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":891.471,"endTime":895.292,"body":"outcome of a three-pound weighing organ inside your"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":895.292,"endTime":898.951,"body":"skull, this mysterious organ that God has created and"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":898.951,"endTime":902.892,"body":"designed. Like, we are trying to understand what the nature of"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":902.892,"endTime":906.991,"body":"consciousness is. So, okay, technologists will be inventing,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":906.991,"endTime":911.491,"body":"enjoying, introducing, we're using that. It's great, but what"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":911.491,"endTime":912.111,"body":"did it take"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":912.851,"endTime":914.072,"body":"for such a"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":914.812,"endTime":918.951,"body":"invention to be realized, for example? I think it took your"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":918.951,"endTime":922.27,"body":"consciousness. But what's consciousness? We have no clue."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":922.27,"endTime":926.532,"body":"We have no clue. It's one of the most elusive properties, that we"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":926.532,"endTime":930.091,"body":"all are carrying, and that's the property that's allowing you to"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":930.091,"endTime":933.552,"body":"invent all those magnificently impressive and astonishing"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":933.552,"endTime":934.402,"body":"things."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":934.402,"endTime":936.111,"body":"Now, I did-- Let me jump in here. I did the MA"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":936.111,"endTime":939.251,"body":"Phil program in the early 2000s, and I had metaphysics,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":939.251,"endTime":942.312,"body":"Consciousness 1, Consciousness 2, and there were leading"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":942.312,"endTime":945.111,"body":"thinkers, people like Jagwon Kim, who would say things like,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":945.111,"endTime":948.991,"body":"\"We don't have a clue how you get consciousness.\" You just"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":948.991,"endTime":952.511,"body":"said, \"We don't have a clue.\" With the advent of AI, are a lot"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":952.511,"endTime":955.831,"body":"of philosophers more confident that they can solve that problem"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":955.831,"endTime":959.912,"body":"now, or is there still a sense of, like, we have no idea how"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":959.912,"endTime":961.251,"body":"consciousness could emerge"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":961.812,"endTime":963.892,"body":"by itself in a naturalistic world?"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":963.892,"endTime":966.27,"body":"So there are diverse opinions."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":966.27,"endTime":966.312,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":966.312,"endTime":968.192,"body":"So physicalistically-minded"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":968.192,"endTime":968.871,"body":"philosophers"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":969.631,"endTime":971.91,"body":"might think, \"Okay, yeah, you're not different"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":972.491,"endTime":975.672,"body":"to begin with. You know, you're just a biological machine,\" and"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":975.672,"endTime":979.371,"body":"we are modeling that, inventing computers. So there isn't kind"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":979.371,"endTime":983.03,"body":"of very surprising thing about you, but our own finitude,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":983.03,"endTime":987.192,"body":"finitude, like, we're not, we're not there yet to crack the"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":987.192,"endTime":991.011,"body":"code. But you are a biological machine, there is-- You're, you,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":991.011,"endTime":994.642,"body":"you have nothing by way of, like, soul. You're not a soul,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":994.642,"endTime":996.211,"body":"you're not a spiritual being in any way,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":996.871,"endTime":999.991,"body":"but we will get there, and we will answer this question. But"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":999.991,"endTime":1004.192,"body":"the problem is, like, the origin of consciousness, is it being"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1004.192,"endTime":1007.392,"body":"caused by the complexity of nervous system, or is it"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1007.392,"endTime":1010.111,"body":"something that enters into the constitution when the nervous"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1010.111,"endTime":1013.572,"body":"system is ready? Like, just like as you would expect a guest into"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1013.572,"endTime":1017.192,"body":"your home when you know, okay, everything is in place. Now, you"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1017.192,"endTime":1020.711,"body":"open the door, and the guest appears. Is that how- I have"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1020.711,"endTime":1023.121,"body":"actually published defending that view. Uh-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1023.121,"endTime":1023.121,"body":"Oh"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1023.121,"endTime":1023.581,"body":"... And,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1024.321,"endTime":1026.451,"body":"we literally have no clue. So"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1027.051,"endTime":1031.351,"body":"JP, myself, and some, you know, dualist philosophers, we are"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1031.351,"endTime":1035.08,"body":"incredibly skeptical of- ... Of what the physicalists are really"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1035.08,"endTime":1038.81,"body":"telling us is the case. It's not as simple as that. But the"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1038.81,"endTime":1040.511,"body":"most surprising thing about this stuff is"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1041.132,"endTime":1043.892,"body":"everything that you see around you is literally the result of"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1043.892,"endTime":1046.912,"body":"consciousness. What exactly is consciousness? I think it feels"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1046.912,"endTime":1050.951,"body":"like God has thrown away the key, and then he tells us"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1050.951,"endTime":1054.291,"body":"that, \"Just enjoy.\" I mean, it doesn't mean that we"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1054.291,"endTime":1056.932,"body":"cannot understand the nature of consciousness, or it-- I'm not"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1056.932,"endTime":1061.851,"body":"saying we can't make progress, but up to date, we haven't"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1061.851,"endTime":1064.571,"body":"made any progress in answering the origin of consciousness or"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1064.571,"endTime":1067.33,"body":"the nature of consciousness. But we know what it is. It's too"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1067.33,"endTime":1069.711,"body":"familiar, but too elusive."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1069.711,"endTime":1071.33,"body":"That's interesting. I love it. I've--"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1071.33,"endTime":1073.271,"body":"As a philosopher, I have so many questions for you, but we'll"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1073.271,"endTime":1076.071,"body":"come back to it. We're gonna get to some of the positive about"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1076.071,"endTime":1079.872,"body":"AI. We're gonna get to how we might think biblically about AI."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1079.872,"endTime":1083.981,"body":"But I want to know what concerns each of you most. Like, for me,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1083.981,"endTime":1087.548,"body":"I-... Loss of jobs would concern me. I'd love your take on that."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1087.548,"endTime":1090.528,"body":"I just heard a podcast this morning about how Hollywood,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1090.528,"endTime":1094.747,"body":"certain figures are, like, ready to just kind of pull the trigger"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1094.747,"endTime":1099.428,"body":"on using AI in a way that will result in a lot of loss of jobs,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1099.428,"endTime":1100.827,"body":"potentially, in that world."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1100.827,"endTime":1101.327,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1101.327,"endTime":1103.647,"body":"I'm concerned about the loss of the ability to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1103.647,"endTime":1107.446,"body":"know truth from fiction, especially some of the videos"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1107.446,"endTime":1109.007,"body":"that come out. I mean, I was speaking at an event, and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1109.007,"endTime":1111.147,"body":"somebody, just for fun, was like, \"I'm just gonna make up an"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1111.147,"endTime":1114.647,"body":"introduction for Sean from Trump,\" [chuckles] and he, just"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1114.647,"endTime":1117.757,"body":"to be fun, chose the president. And I sent it to a few people."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1117.757,"endTime":1120.587,"body":"They're like, \"Wait a minute, is this real?\" Which made me laugh"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1120.587,"endTime":1122.827,"body":"that they thought the president would give me [chuckles] an"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1122.827,"endTime":1126.077,"body":"introduction. I'm like, \"Do you actually think this is real?\""},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1126.077,"endTime":1126.087,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1126.087,"endTime":1128.788,"body":"But they paused for a minute, so, like, the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1128.788,"endTime":1132.627,"body":"inability to know truth from fiction concerns me. Some of the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1132.627,"endTime":1136.367,"body":"dehumanization, just in the sense of when... I'm all for"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1136.367,"endTime":1141.686,"body":"saving time, but when AI does things that humans should do-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1141.686,"endTime":1142.048,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1142.048,"endTime":1143.567,"body":"Like, I remember the first time I heard a guy"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1143.567,"endTime":1146.048,"body":"that broke up with a girl texting. I'm like, \"You've got"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1146.048,"endTime":1149.747,"body":"to be kidding. You've got to look somebody face to face. You"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1149.747,"endTime":1152.507,"body":"owe that to them.\" So I have a bunch of concerns, but I'd love"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1152.507,"endTime":1155.946,"body":"to go kind of just field by field and tell me what concerns"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1155.946,"endTime":1156.087,"body":"you"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1156.607,"endTime":1158.686,"body":"most, and we'll just keep the pattern going this way."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1158.686,"endTime":1158.707,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1158.707,"endTime":1159.587,"body":"Johan, go ahead."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1159.587,"endTime":1162.247,"body":"Yeah. No, I mean, for me, it is that"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1162.247,"endTime":1164.548,"body":"dehumanization. That, that's the thing- ... That concerns me the"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1164.548,"endTime":1167.387,"body":"most. I mean, these are technologies, these are tools,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1167.387,"endTime":1170.207,"body":"these are products that are meant to be solving a problem"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1170.207,"endTime":1173.487,"body":"and providing some form of human benefit and an advantage. And"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1173.487,"endTime":1176.327,"body":"when products like this cause a four- a 13-year-old and a"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1176.327,"endTime":1178.367,"body":"16-year-old to commit suicide-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1178.367,"endTime":1178.627,"body":"Oh, man"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1178.627,"endTime":1181.067,"body":"... No, that's a fail, in the most dramatic"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1181.067,"endTime":1182.507,"body":"terms, right?"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1183.367,"endTime":1183.887,"body":"And so"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1184.567,"endTime":1187.607,"body":"these are not just nascent technologies that you just leave"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1187.607,"endTime":1190.647,"body":"on the shelf. I mean, these must be used with discernment. So"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1191.247,"endTime":1194.577,"body":"getting into the inability to think, because as technology"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1194.577,"endTime":1198.007,"body":"gets more complex, as capabilities get more complex,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1198.007,"endTime":1200.946,"body":"then because of profit motive or efficiency, you're gonna start"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1200.946,"endTime":1205.428,"body":"seeing a lot more synergy. Now, it's, you, it's"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1206.747,"endTime":1211.327,"body":"AI for self-driving cars. Will it be airplanes one day, right?"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1211.327,"endTime":1211.957,"body":"Will it be-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1211.957,"endTime":1212.097,"body":"Interesting"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1212.097,"endTime":1214.346,"body":"... The next, you know, rocket ships? You name it."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1214.346,"endTime":1217.567,"body":"Anything that is typically a crewed vehicle, could that then"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1217.567,"endTime":1220.967,"body":"be, replaced with an AI? It may be, and there may be"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1220.967,"endTime":1224.048,"body":"tremendously good reasons for it, and I, and I can be a"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1224.048,"endTime":1226.186,"body":"proponent, and also I can also be a,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1226.807,"endTime":1231.268,"body":"a critic. But the part that I think that really matters is"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1231.268,"endTime":1235.548,"body":"humans need to be able to handle the corner cases when technology"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1235.548,"endTime":1239.087,"body":"fails. Humans need to be able to solve and understand- ... What's"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1239.087,"endTime":1242.327,"body":"going on when it doesn't work. I mean, we just had a massive"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1242.327,"endTime":1245.227,"body":"global outage of a tried-and-true technology for"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1245.227,"endTime":1249.647,"body":"the last 15 years. That cost a lot of time and money, right?"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1249.647,"endTime":1251.946,"body":"And again, time and money is just time and money. It's not at"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1251.946,"endTime":1253.847,"body":"the same scale of value as human life."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1253.847,"endTime":1254.307,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1254.307,"endTime":1254.587,"body":"But"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1255.147,"endTime":1255.428,"body":"if"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1255.946,"endTime":1260.327,"body":"the more that we offload our thinking to an AI, then our"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1260.327,"endTime":1263.627,"body":"students and our future operators and engineers and"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1263.627,"endTime":1266.147,"body":"scientists of the world are gonna be less equipped to do the"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1266.147,"endTime":1269.207,"body":"math and figure out when did the code break, when did the"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1269.207,"endTime":1272.976,"body":"technology break, what was the corner case that it mistook?"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1272.976,"endTime":1274.217,"body":"That's important, because"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1274.827,"endTime":1277.347,"body":"for anything to be successful, you have to be able to support"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1277.347,"endTime":1279.067,"body":"it well, you have to be able to operate it well, you have to"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1279.067,"endTime":1281.186,"body":"maintain it well, and you have to be able to troubleshoot it"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1281.186,"endTime":1283.307,"body":"well, and you have to be able to know how to take it offline"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1284.048,"endTime":1287.087,"body":"and replace it with something in the meantime for basic business"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1287.087,"endTime":1291.387,"body":"continuity and then, most often, health and human safety. So we"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1291.387,"endTime":1292.867,"body":"need to be experts in the technology"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1293.928,"endTime":1296.227,"body":"when it breaks, 'cause it always breaks."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1296.227,"endTime":1297.367,"body":"So it sounds like you're saying there's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1297.367,"endTime":1299.387,"body":"dehumanization on two levels."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1299.387,"endTime":1299.607,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1299.607,"endTime":1302.847,"body":"Number one, when we export things"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1302.847,"endTime":1304.847,"body":"humans should do to technology-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1304.847,"endTime":1305.268,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1305.268,"endTime":1307.928,"body":"... We lose something of what uniquely makes"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1307.928,"endTime":1309.407,"body":"us human and flourish."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1309.407,"endTime":1310.027,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1310.027,"endTime":1311.607,"body":"On the other hand, the more we export to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1311.607,"endTime":1315.428,"body":"technology, and that technology fails, and it has failed, and we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1315.428,"endTime":1316.087,"body":"see it fail-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1316.087,"endTime":1316.186,"body":"Yes"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1316.747,"endTime":1318.647,"body":"... Then we're caught in this cycle where we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1318.647,"endTime":1320.768,"body":"don't have the ability to really fix it-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1320.768,"endTime":1320.777,"body":"Correct"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1320.777,"endTime":1322.467,"body":"... And catch it because we're so dependent on"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1322.467,"endTime":1325.167,"body":"it, which makes me think we could come back to this, Merete,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1325.167,"endTime":1327.157,"body":"that oftentimes people would say, \"What are you gonna do with"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1327.157,"endTime":1329.347,"body":"a philosophy degree,\" right? Like, what's the point?"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1329.347,"endTime":1329.827,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1329.827,"endTime":1331.847,"body":"I think I heard Lee Strobel in a talk here at"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1331.847,"endTime":1335.946,"body":"Biola like 20 years ago. He told a joke about how, \"You know,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1335.946,"endTime":1337.847,"body":"what does a philosophy major"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1338.367,"endTime":1341.106,"body":"and a medium pizza have in common?\" And he's like, \"Neither"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1341.106,"endTime":1344.116,"body":"can feed a family of five.\" Like, the joke is-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1344.116,"endTime":1344.257,"body":"Wow"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1344.257,"endTime":1346.467,"body":"... You can't do anything with philosophy. If"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1346.467,"endTime":1347.027,"body":"you're right-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1347.027,"endTime":1347.207,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1347.207,"endTime":1350.288,"body":"... Actually learning to think critically,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1350.288,"endTime":1354.887,"body":"uniquely human skills, might be gaining in their value-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1354.887,"endTime":1355.067,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1355.067,"endTime":1357.147,"body":"... In a way we didn't appreciate in the past."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":1357.147,"endTime":1357.707,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1357.707,"endTime":1359.407,"body":"That, that's a really interesting way,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1360.227,"endTime":1362.897,"body":"way to look at it. What concerns you in the world of business?"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1363.547,"endTime":1363.928,"body":"There,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1364.527,"endTime":1366.748,"body":"I gotta dive in on the human skill thing-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1366.748,"endTime":1366.877,"body":"Do it. Do it"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1366.877,"endTime":1369.167,"body":"... Here first. I mean, I think that a"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1369.167,"endTime":1372.047,"body":"philosophy degree is gonna matter more than ever in the"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1372.047,"endTime":1372.446,"body":"future."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1372.446,"endTime":1373.127,"body":"100%."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1373.127,"endTime":1375.507,"body":"I think that a liberal arts education-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1375.507,"endTime":1375.616,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1375.616,"endTime":1376.907,"body":"... To think critically-"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1377.467,"endTime":1381.268,"body":"... To reason, to be able to dive deep into, you know, what's"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1381.268,"endTime":1384.788,"body":"happening here and what are all the unintended consequences, is"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1384.788,"endTime":1387.487,"body":"more essential to our survival-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1387.487,"endTime":1387.807,"body":"Yes"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1387.807,"endTime":1391.487,"body":"... Than ever before. So, so I, the..."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1391.487,"endTime":1395.107,"body":"I'm not afraid of the tech. Um- I'll start with that. I'm afraid"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1395.107,"endTime":1396.018,"body":"of the humans."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1396.647,"endTime":1397.917,"body":"And, and what I mean by that is"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1398.507,"endTime":1401.748,"body":"I'm afraid of the thinking of the humans who design and build"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1401.748,"endTime":1402.428,"body":"the tech-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1402.428,"endTime":1402.436,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1402.436,"endTime":1405.428,"body":"... And I'm, I'm afraid of us, as users of the"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1405.428,"endTime":1409.186,"body":"tech, and how we may misuse, abuse, and frankly, give away"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1409.186,"endTime":1411.147,"body":"our freedoms as a result of it. So,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1411.667,"endTime":1416.107,"body":"so for me, the existential crisis is on the human side, not"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1416.107,"endTime":1417.067,"body":"the tech side."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1417.686,"endTime":1421.547,"body":"We, you know, we can- ... Build guardrails on the tech. We can-"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1421.547,"endTime":1424.928,"body":"but we in the liberal arts, you know, philosophy, critical"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1424.928,"endTime":1425.647,"body":"thinking,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1426.467,"endTime":1430.547,"body":"you know, psycholog- we've got to be thinking about all the"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1430.547,"endTime":1431.847,"body":"human consequences."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1432.607,"endTime":1435.268,"body":"One of the... You know, yes, there will be, you know, as the"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1435.268,"endTime":1440.327,"body":"business guy, yes, this is going to affect jobs. There will be a"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1440.327,"endTime":1443.967,"body":"pretty radical job dislocation. I mean, we're seeing it. We're"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1443.967,"endTime":1448.015,"body":"seeing it already. In the long term-... I'm not as fearful"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1448.015,"endTime":1449.076,"body":"about that, because-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1449.076,"endTime":1449.175,"body":"Okay"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1449.175,"endTime":1451.836,"body":"We've, we've shown the resiliency- to"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1451.836,"endTime":1453.215,"body":"recreate new jobs-"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1453.786,"endTime":1457.355,"body":"and come up with new ideas. So, so I think that's a threat in"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1457.355,"endTime":1461.355,"body":"the near term. I think the long-term threats on humanity--"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1461.355,"endTime":1465.036,"body":"There was a great study done from Elon University, and it"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1465.036,"endTime":1468.076,"body":"asked this simple question- \"What's it going to look like to"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1468.076,"endTime":1473.056,"body":"be a human being in the year 2035?\" And the experts all said"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1473.056,"endTime":1476.536,"body":"things like- \"Well, we're going to lose social intelligence.\" So"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1476.536,"endTime":1477.096,"body":"our ability-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1477.096,"endTime":1477.115,"body":"Wow!"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1477.115,"endTime":1480.816,"body":"Which, which you could argue has already begun,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1480.816,"endTime":1484.976,"body":"right, with the era of social media. So the ability, as"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1484.976,"endTime":1487.596,"body":"you said earlier, Sean- ... To sit eyeball to eyeball and to"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1487.596,"endTime":1491.615,"body":"engage in a meaningful, relational, communal"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1491.615,"endTime":1495.415,"body":"interaction, is going to begin to dissipate if we're not"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1495.415,"endTime":1499.355,"body":"careful about it. Yeah, cognitive dependency. You know,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1499.355,"endTime":1501.935,"body":"certainly, you know- ... There have been studies where, you"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1501.935,"endTime":1507.415,"body":"know, if we over-rely on AI, our brain doesn't have the"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1507.415,"endTime":1509.994,"body":"same cognitive load, doesn't have the same- ... Synapse"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1509.994,"endTime":1513.796,"body":"connections. And those are all true, but the one that scares me"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1513.796,"endTime":1517.275,"body":"most from that study is the loss of our human identity."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1517.275,"endTime":1518.056,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1518.056,"endTime":1520.836,"body":"And, and just think about that for a moment."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1520.836,"endTime":1523.655,"body":"Just play with Sora 2, just to... And I could pick anything,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1523.655,"endTime":1524.615,"body":"right? I could pick anything."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1524.615,"endTime":1524.734,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1524.734,"endTime":1526.355,"body":"I don't know how many have played with Sora 2,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1526.355,"endTime":1528.635,"body":"but, like, I can put myself"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1529.255,"endTime":1535.115,"body":"in the middle of a story as hero. I can, I can make myself"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1535.115,"endTime":1538.566,"body":"the hero. I can make myself anything I want to be in this"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1538.566,"endTime":1542.515,"body":"artificial world and give up my God-given identity, you"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1542.515,"endTime":1546.175,"body":"know, what created in His image, for something that the"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1546.175,"endTime":1549.096,"body":"world has made. So those are the things that, you know, are"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1549.096,"endTime":1550.895,"body":"incredibly alarming to me."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1550.895,"endTime":1553.015,"body":"So the business angle, we're moving from a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1553.015,"endTime":1557.895,"body":"non-AI to an AI world, and probably those in the middle,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1557.895,"endTime":1561.755,"body":"we're going to see more loss of job. But your sense is we might"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1561.755,"endTime":1564.715,"body":"kind of settle in, that once we have people who haven't been"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1564.715,"endTime":1565.255,"body":"trained"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1565.915,"endTime":1569.234,"body":"30, 40 years ago in such a different world, that we'll"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1569.234,"endTime":1573.155,"body":"adapt economically, would be your sense. But the bigger"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1573.155,"endTime":1575.914,"body":"concern is... Let me frame it in a way, tell me if you agree with"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1575.914,"endTime":1576.316,"body":"this."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1576.316,"endTime":1576.965,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1576.965,"endTime":1578.336,"body":"I'm-- I suspect all of you agree with this, that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1578.336,"endTime":1580.566,"body":"technology is not neutral."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1580.566,"endTime":1580.576,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1580.576,"endTime":1583.076,"body":"And I don't mean morally neutral. That's another"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1583.076,"endTime":1586.255,"body":"question we could talk about. But technology affects us."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1586.255,"endTime":1586.615,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1586.615,"endTime":1588.415,"body":"Like the airplane made the world"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1588.415,"endTime":1590.875,"body":"different when you could travel to Europe in a way people"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1590.875,"endTime":1593.556,"body":"couldn't before. Air conditioning changed things."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1593.556,"endTime":1596.836,"body":"Watches changed things. Social media changed things. Your"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1596.836,"endTime":1601.234,"body":"concern is that AI is going to affect what we think and how we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1601.234,"endTime":1606.316,"body":"experience being human and shape us in ways we don't even really"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1606.316,"endTime":1607.195,"body":"anticipate."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1607.195,"endTime":1608.775,"body":"I think it could."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1608.775,"endTime":1609.644,"body":"It could, okay."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1609.644,"endTime":1612.105,"body":"And I think, I think our responsibility"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1612.755,"endTime":1615.596,"body":"is to start thinking about it much more holistically. You"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1615.596,"endTime":1618.516,"body":"know, so as a business person- ... I'm training every business"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1618.516,"endTime":1621.215,"body":"student that comes through Crowell School of Business in AI"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1621.215,"endTime":1625.155,"body":"literacy, otherwise they will be at a significant disadvantage."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1625.155,"endTime":1627.295,"body":"[clears throat] But just as import-- more importantly, I'll"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1627.295,"endTime":1631.715,"body":"say, foundationally below that, is how do you think ethically-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1631.715,"endTime":1632.056,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1632.056,"endTime":1634.675,"body":"... About the use of AI? So one corner of what"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1634.675,"endTime":1637.576,"body":"we call the triangle, the top being AI literacy."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1637.576,"endTime":1637.915,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1637.915,"endTime":1639.635,"body":"Another corner being, how do you think about"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1639.635,"endTime":1644.175,"body":"this from, you know, as a biblically centered institution"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1644.175,"endTime":1646.955,"body":"through a set of biblical principles and with an ethical"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1646.955,"endTime":1650.516,"body":"lens? And then the other is, how do we teach you to... How do we"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1650.516,"endTime":1654.516,"body":"teach the enduring human skills? Because it turns out that the"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1654.516,"endTime":1657.895,"body":"technical skills have a shelf life, and that's shrinking"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1657.895,"endTime":1662.016,"body":"radically because AI is augmenting that. But the human"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1662.016,"endTime":1664.816,"body":"skills- How do you engage in a conversation? How do you think"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1664.816,"endTime":1666.395,"body":"critically? How do you,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1666.935,"endTime":1669.775,"body":"how do you influence other people? Those things are"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1669.775,"endTime":1670.615,"body":"enduring. So"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1671.135,"endTime":1675.234,"body":"if we-- So my hope, on my good days, when I'm hopeful"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1675.234,"endTime":1675.915,"body":"[laugh] about this-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1675.915,"endTime":1676.465,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1676.465,"endTime":1676.465,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1676.465,"endTime":1679.795,"body":"... If we can teach AI literacy and do it with"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1679.795,"endTime":1683.675,"body":"a set of ethical principles and teach people how to be better"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1683.675,"endTime":1687.476,"body":"human beings that can influence one another, positively"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1687.476,"endTime":1690.516,"body":"influence, you know, then I, then I'm very hopeful. On the"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1690.516,"endTime":1694.295,"body":"days where I think we over-index towards AI literacy only,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1694.295,"endTime":1696.935,"body":"without those two foundational traits,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1697.455,"endTime":1699.215,"body":"that's when I get scared about the internet."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1699.215,"endTime":1700.795,"body":"Last question, quick follow-up- Do you have a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1700.795,"endTime":1703.734,"body":"sense of how much that's being done in the business world?"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1704.255,"endTime":1705.234,"body":"It's interesting. It's,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1706.016,"endTime":1708.674,"body":"if you ask the business world this question- ... They will"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1708.674,"endTime":1712.016,"body":"say, \"Yes, by all means, we're thinking about this ethically.\""},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1712.016,"endTime":1713.065,"body":"If I were to ask, you know-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1713.065,"endTime":1713.465,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1713.465,"endTime":1716.556,"body":"... Those of you who have studied ethics, are"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1716.556,"endTime":1719.195,"body":"they thinking about it that way? The answer is, they haven't been"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1719.195,"endTime":1722.775,"body":"trained to. So, so the short answer is- ... I don't"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1722.775,"endTime":1727.016,"body":"think there's, like, malintent here, with a few exceptions."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1727.016,"endTime":1727.385,"body":"Yeah, that's fair."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1727.385,"endTime":1728.076,"body":"We could debate those."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1728.076,"endTime":1728.795,"body":"That's fair."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1729.395,"endTime":1731.556,"body":"But I, but I think what it is, and this is"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1731.556,"endTime":1735.115,"body":"the liberal arts education and why it's so critical these days,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1735.115,"endTime":1738.665,"body":"I think we have not taught people how to think ethically-"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1738.665,"endTime":1742.895,"body":"... How to ask these questions, and we've tossed them into these"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1742.895,"endTime":1745.976,"body":"technology engines, and they're building things based on their"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1745.976,"endTime":1750.056,"body":"own moral code, and usually based on, Johan said this"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1750.056,"endTime":1753.675,"body":"already, with the capitalistic mindset that speed matters"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1753.675,"endTime":1756.915,"body":"disproportionately. So all these other things- ... Are coming"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1756.915,"endTime":1761.135,"body":"along later, maybe, but they haven't been trained how to"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1761.135,"endTime":1762.734,"body":"think about these things."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1762.734,"endTime":1765.476,"body":"Oftentimes, what I've seen is ethics follows the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1765.476,"endTime":1770.215,"body":"technology, 'cause it's just too powerful and transformative."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1770.215,"endTime":1773.476,"body":"You're trying to do differently here, which I appreciate. As a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1773.476,"endTime":1776.576,"body":"philosopher and apologist, Mehretu, what concerns you the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1776.576,"endTime":1777.505,"body":"most about AI?"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1777.505,"endTime":1780.734,"body":"I'd like to begin by thanking Johan and Michael."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1780.734,"endTime":1783.855,"body":"Honestly, I'm profoundly grateful for your observations."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1783.855,"endTime":1787.695,"body":"This is one of the areas where I'm vocally in a kind of"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1788.635,"endTime":1790.695,"body":"extremely kind of critique of"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1791.375,"endTime":1794.755,"body":"the relevance of AI. The critical thinking is really"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1794.755,"endTime":1797.536,"body":"irreplaceable. It's not, it's, it's not something that we can"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1797.536,"endTime":1798.556,"body":"negotiate over."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":1798.556,"endTime":1798.755,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1798.755,"endTime":1800.596,"body":"It doesn't matter what you do, it doesn't matter"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1800.596,"endTime":1803.355,"body":"what your discipline is, it literally doesn't matter. That's"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1803.355,"endTime":1806.275,"body":"a requirement. That's a prerequisite for you to succeed"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1806.275,"endTime":1810.875,"body":"in anything that you do. So, I think AI, if it's not handled"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1810.875,"endTime":1815.955,"body":"carefully, if we are outsourcing everything to AI, the end goal"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1815.955,"endTime":1820.259,"body":"of that kind of, uh-... Commitment to AI is going to be"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1820.259,"endTime":1821.94,"body":"disastrous. So-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1821.94,"endTime":1823.66,"body":"Yeah, it'll make us data clerks."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1823.66,"endTime":1825.839,"body":"Completely. So organic thinking"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1826.42,"endTime":1828.779,"body":"should be taken very seriously. So organic thinking"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1828.779,"endTime":1833.599,"body":"shouldn't be handed over to, AI. Imagine, there's a irony"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1833.599,"endTime":1836.9,"body":"here. So these people who are writing these programs or"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1836.9,"endTime":1840.039,"body":"algorithms and so on, they are using their mind, right? They"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1840.039,"endTime":1841.74,"body":"are effectively using [chuckles] their mind."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1841.74,"endTime":1842.65,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1842.65,"endTime":1844.9,"body":"But they are telling the rest of us, \"No, no,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1844.9,"endTime":1849.2,"body":"no. Don't read the book. It is AI summary. Don't even,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1849.2,"endTime":1849.72,"body":"like, put your"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1850.24,"endTime":1852.579,"body":"finger on the book. You don't have to even know the color of"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1852.579,"endTime":1856.2,"body":"my book. You pretend as if you're an expert.\" Okay, that's"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1856.2,"endTime":1859.74,"body":"a disservice. You need to read a book from cover to cover if you"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1859.74,"endTime":1861.299,"body":"really want to be a genuine expert."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1861.839,"endTime":1864.96,"body":"And also, our conception of knowledge has to change."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1864.96,"endTime":1867.98,"body":"Knowledge has to be pursued for intrinsic reasons-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1867.98,"endTime":1868.0,"body":"Amen!"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1868.0,"endTime":1871.769,"body":"... Not only always- ... For financial gain"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1871.769,"endTime":1872.599,"body":"Or instrumental."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1872.599,"endTime":1872.619,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1872.619,"endTime":1875.38,"body":"Okay, explain the difference between intrinsic"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1875.38,"endTime":1878.559,"body":"versus instrumental value of thinking."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1878.559,"endTime":1880.619,"body":"Yeah. Intrinsic knowledge is a knowledge that"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1880.619,"endTime":1882.378,"body":"you can pursue for its own sake."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1882.98,"endTime":1886.48,"body":"I- there's nothing attached to it. Like, \"Oh, I want to make"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1886.48,"endTime":1889.549,"body":"X amount of money,\" or, \"I want to be famous,\" or, \"I just want"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1889.549,"endTime":1894.819,"body":"to impress people.\" Those are very instrumental,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1895.94,"endTime":1897.0,"body":"you know, pursuits."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1897.619,"endTime":1898.5,"body":"An instrumental,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1899.839,"endTime":1902.819,"body":"value or knowledge is a knowledge such as, for example,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1902.819,"endTime":1905.92,"body":"I have a money. Let's say I want to have a degree in computer"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1905.92,"endTime":1907.49,"body":"science because I just want to make money."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1908.259,"endTime":1911.16,"body":"I'm really laser focused on making money. That's it. I"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1911.16,"endTime":1913.259,"body":"really don't care. So,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1914.42,"endTime":1918.9,"body":"I think we need to take this extremely seriously because it's"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1918.9,"endTime":1922.64,"body":"really causing a serious damage already. There are college"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1922.64,"endTime":1923.579,"body":"students who cannot"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1925.16,"endTime":1925.64,"body":"read."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1926.619,"endTime":1929.779,"body":"There are high schoolers who cannot read. A study came out,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1929.779,"endTime":1932.359,"body":"em, out of MIT, I don't know if you were referring to that"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1932.359,"endTime":1932.66,"body":"study."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1932.66,"endTime":1933.359,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1933.359,"endTime":1935.88,"body":"ChatGPT users, brain conductivity is almost"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1935.88,"endTime":1936.599,"body":"undetectable."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1936.599,"endTime":1937.44,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1937.44,"endTime":1940.779,"body":"And, brain users- ... Which means people who"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1940.779,"endTime":1943.96,"body":"really struggle and sweat over reading, writing in a organic"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1943.96,"endTime":1946.618,"body":"way, it's like California wildfire. You can actually see"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1946.618,"endTime":1950.619,"body":"the brain is lit up. There is a neuroscience, as, you know, as"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1950.619,"endTime":1953.359,"body":"Johan knows, and Michael, actually, you also know,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1953.359,"endTime":1956.579,"body":"neuroplasticity, for example. Neuroplasticity is a concept"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1956.579,"endTime":1963.019,"body":"that how much you challenge your brain is proportional"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1963.92,"endTime":1967.14,"body":"how effective you would become in terms of having this rich"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1967.14,"endTime":1967.849,"body":"cognitive life."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1968.66,"endTime":1969.98,"body":"The less you challenge yourself,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1970.779,"endTime":1974.48,"body":"and the outcome that you get is proportional to how less you're"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1974.48,"endTime":1977.94,"body":"challenging yourself. So I think, in business school, for"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1977.94,"endTime":1978.799,"body":"example,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1979.46,"endTime":1982.42,"body":"there has to be a philosophy of business, where students not"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1982.42,"endTime":1986.539,"body":"only kind of, kind of taking this skill, which is extremely"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1986.539,"endTime":1990.24,"body":"important, AI literacy is extremely important- ... But"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1990.24,"endTime":1993.24,"body":"they need to also be equipped with business philosophy. Like,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1993.24,"endTime":1997.14,"body":"what kind of person should you be- ... As a businessman? Like,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1997.14,"endTime":1999.599,"body":"how should you interact with other people? How should you"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":1999.599,"endTime":2003.68,"body":"handle difficult situations? Not only like solving tech-related"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2003.68,"endTime":2005.859,"body":"problems, but human beings are"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2006.599,"endTime":2009.059,"body":"problems themselves, right? [chuckles] They, they just, they"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2009.059,"endTime":2011.839,"body":"are incredibly difficult creatures to deal with in some"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2011.839,"endTime":2014.599,"body":"situations. So how can you manage and navigate that"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2014.599,"endTime":2015.16,"body":"environment?"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2015.74,"endTime":2018.839,"body":"This cannot be done without critical thinking faculties."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2018.839,"endTime":2021.5,"body":"Amen to that. And by the way, you're a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2021.5,"endTime":2024.71,"body":"dualist, you and J.P. Moreland, two of the leading defenders of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2024.71,"endTime":2027.16,"body":"the idea that we're body and soul today. So when you talk"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2027.16,"endTime":2028.48,"body":"about neuroplasticity,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2029.059,"endTime":2033.019,"body":"we have a soul, an immaterial component. We have a physical"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2033.019,"endTime":2033.619,"body":"component,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2034.2,"endTime":2036.619,"body":"and they interact. What we do with our minds affects our"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2036.619,"endTime":2039.64,"body":"bodies. What we do with our bodies can affect our minds."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2039.64,"endTime":2043.319,"body":"When we export some things we're supposed to do with our minds,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2043.319,"endTime":2046.859,"body":"we actually see the negative effects in our bodies."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2046.859,"endTime":2047.259,"body":"Understood."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2047.259,"endTime":2050.199,"body":"Hence, using ChatGPT in certain fashion"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2050.199,"endTime":2052.559,"body":"affects the processing and development of the brain."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2052.559,"endTime":2056.239,"body":"Imagine the memory capacity of ChatGPT users"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2056.239,"endTime":2060.48,"body":"is shrinking down to seconds. Like, they don't even record"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2060.48,"endTime":2063.88,"body":"what they have posted, you know, five minutes ago. Why? If you"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2063.88,"endTime":2066.519,"body":"haven't sat on something, if that's literally is not"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2066.519,"endTime":2069.34,"body":"something that came out of your own effort, what do you expect"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2069.34,"endTime":2073.519,"body":"to remember? Let's suppose I have Mike in the math class."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2074.159,"endTime":2077.32,"body":"You know, you are a math genius, and I hired you. I gave you"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2077.32,"endTime":2081.98,"body":"money, and I am there, I'm a student, and you are my ChatGPT."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2081.98,"endTime":2082.699,"body":"[chuckles] Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2082.699,"endTime":2085.78,"body":"I show you the calculus problem. \"Mike, okay,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2085.78,"endTime":2089.119,"body":"here is it. What should I say?\" And you tell me, and I write"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2089.119,"endTime":2092.599,"body":"that down, and then I got an A on the calculus exam. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2092.599,"endTime":2092.639,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2092.639,"endTime":2095.44,"body":"Do you hire me as a mathematician in your school?"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2095.44,"endTime":2095.699,"body":"Like-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2095.699,"endTime":2096.01,"body":"No chance"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2096.01,"endTime":2097.519,"body":"... That's literally what ChatGPT is all"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2097.519,"endTime":2101.719,"body":"about. You put the prompt, and it spits out to you information,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2101.719,"endTime":2104.38,"body":"and that's not yours. If you r- if you write an essay"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2104.9,"endTime":2107.4,"body":"by downloading from ChatGPT, you haven't written anything."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2108.219,"endTime":2111.639,"body":"You need to admit that. So I think, I think we need-- Us"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2111.639,"endTime":2115.139,"body":"Christians especially, like, the life of the mind means loving"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2115.139,"endTime":2118.579,"body":"God with your mind means literally sweating, spending"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2118.579,"endTime":2119.28,"body":"countless hours"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2119.94,"endTime":2122.25,"body":"doing your own thing genuinely with integrity."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2122.86,"endTime":2126.579,"body":"And that's not a loss. And that's exactly how you can show"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2126.579,"endTime":2130.26,"body":"your own integrity. That's how you can prove your own genuine"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2130.26,"endTime":2134.78,"body":"expertise. You can't cut the corners. You'll be caught. Like,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2134.78,"endTime":2138.34,"body":"if you fake your way, you will have no hiding place. Like, if"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2138.34,"endTime":2141.0,"body":"you stand in front of me as a mathematician, and if you want--"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2141.0,"endTime":2144.639,"body":"If you have faked your way, I can make your life miserable in"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2144.639,"endTime":2148.92,"body":"half a second. Here is a whiteboard, here is a marker. Go"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2148.92,"endTime":2152.039,"body":"ahead and show me derivatives and blah. Just show me."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2153.42,"endTime":2155.199,"body":"And that's a reckoning moment for you."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2155.76,"endTime":2158.4,"body":"Faking your way is not going to help you, and people need to"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2158.4,"endTime":2159.46,"body":"understand that."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2159.46,"endTime":2160.579,"body":"This distinction-- Oh, yeah, go"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2160.579,"endTime":2160.88,"body":"ahead."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":2160.88,"endTime":2162.179,"body":"I just want to follow up on that"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":2162.179,"endTime":2164.96,"body":"because, you know, this whole dualist... I've actually studied"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":2164.96,"endTime":2167.559,"body":"your work and J.P.'s work, and I think- ... This whole dualist"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":2167.559,"endTime":2168.3,"body":"approach,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":2168.96,"endTime":2172.519,"body":"it's, it's all- it's thinking, but it's also experience and the"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":2172.519,"endTime":2176.039,"body":"inner experience. And I think about it this way- like, the"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":2176.039,"endTime":2179.3,"body":"Turing test actually was beat, you know-"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2179.3,"endTime":2179.53,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":2179.53,"endTime":2181.32,"body":"... In a university just south of where"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":2181.32,"endTime":2184.44,"body":"we are right now. But it was beat because it mimicked human"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":2184.44,"endTime":2188.119,"body":"emotion, but it never felt it. It never experienced it. It"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":2188.119,"endTime":2191.92,"body":"doesn't know what love really is. It just knows how to mimic"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":2191.92,"endTime":2195.672,"body":"those emotions, and I think that's the real danger.... Is"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":2195.672,"endTime":2198.952,"body":"that- ... This inner experience, both learning and then"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":2198.952,"endTime":2203.211,"body":"emotional, is something that AI will never mimic, and that's who"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":2203.211,"endTime":2206.851,"body":"we are, you know, as image bearers, and we've gotta be"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":2206.851,"endTime":2209.362,"body":"very careful to, you know, not give that up."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2209.871,"endTime":2210.902,"body":"I- can I ask something?"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2210.902,"endTime":2210.911,"body":"Please, yeah."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2210.911,"endTime":2212.592,"body":"This is a brilliant point, because,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2212.592,"endTime":2215.291,"body":"[clears throat] what Michael was referring to is what we call"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2215.291,"endTime":2217.032,"body":"first-person experience."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2217.032,"endTime":2217.552,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2217.552,"endTime":2219.592,"body":"The ability to introspect your own mental"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2219.592,"endTime":2220.672,"body":"states."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2221.391,"endTime":2224.231,"body":"For example, right now, as I engage in this kind of"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2224.231,"endTime":2227.112,"body":"conversation, in the back of my mind, I'm literally running so"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2227.112,"endTime":2227.931,"body":"many other things."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2227.931,"endTime":2228.132,"body":"Yeah. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2228.132,"endTime":2230.431,"body":"I am aware of those things, but they are not"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2230.431,"endTime":2233.132,"body":"relevant for me. I'm not gonna let them come to the surface of"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2233.132,"endTime":2235.472,"body":"my consciousness and be part of this conversation."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2236.331,"endTime":2240.411,"body":"That ability is incredibly mysterious. Imagine- ... You"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2240.411,"endTime":2243.742,"body":"literally are aware of what's happening inside your"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2244.612,"endTime":2248.592,"body":"mind. Not brain, mind. Brain is important to just facilitate."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2248.592,"endTime":2253.851,"body":"We're not our brains. So first-person data is 100%"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2253.851,"endTime":2254.592,"body":"unmanageable"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2255.211,"endTime":2258.251,"body":"given any neuroscientific studies. Like, you peer"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2258.251,"endTime":2261.291,"body":"into my brain as much as you want, you can come away with"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2261.291,"endTime":2263.911,"body":"blood flow and neural, you know, through neurotransmitters and"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2263.911,"endTime":2267.492,"body":"electricities and proteins and boring water, and so on. But"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2267.492,"endTime":2271.452,"body":"what- where is my information? Where did I store? You can't see"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2271.452,"endTime":2274.311,"body":"my beliefs, you can't see my desires, you can't see my plans,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2274.311,"endTime":2275.572,"body":"my regrets, and so on."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2276.211,"endTime":2279.931,"body":"If I am not soul, where are those things? If you have access"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2279.931,"endTime":2284.152,"body":"to my physical brain, why can't you actually tell me where my..."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2284.152,"endTime":2286.632,"body":"Everything that information is? Where?"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2286.632,"endTime":2286.992,"body":"Well,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2287.871,"endTime":2290.711,"body":"memory, 'cause, you know, memory is"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2291.331,"endTime":2294.431,"body":"storable and identifiable, so let's- ... Let's, let's not"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2294.431,"endTime":2295.331,"body":"forget that piece."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2295.331,"endTime":2295.351,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2295.351,"endTime":2297.692,"body":"I mean, that's been discovered for a little over 30"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2297.692,"endTime":2298.172,"body":"years."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":2298.172,"endTime":2298.282,"body":"The technology."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2298.282,"endTime":2299.032,"body":"The memory-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2299.032,"endTime":2299.041,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2299.041,"endTime":2299.362,"body":"... Yeah."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2299.362,"endTime":2299.391,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2299.391,"endTime":2302.391,"body":"So I have actually a great skepticism"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2302.391,"endTime":2303.391,"body":"when it comes to memory."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2304.731,"endTime":2307.871,"body":"Yes, we can know certain parts of your brain- ... Hippocampus"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2307.871,"endTime":2309.652,"body":"and synaptic connections, and so on-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2309.652,"endTime":2309.661,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2309.661,"endTime":2312.811,"body":"... But no one has ever been able to actually"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2312.811,"endTime":2313.211,"body":"show me"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2314.231,"endTime":2317.791,"body":"where is that information? You, you can show when these"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2317.791,"endTime":2320.972,"body":"structures get damaged- Yes, exactly. You would not be able"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2320.972,"endTime":2323.092,"body":"to remember- ... And that's correlation. That's not"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2323.092,"endTime":2324.692,"body":"causation or identity."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2324.692,"endTime":2324.731,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2324.731,"endTime":2326.831,"body":"Those two things have never been shown in any"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2326.831,"endTime":2327.891,"body":"discipline."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2327.891,"endTime":2331.632,"body":"The ability for memory formation and where those"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2331.632,"endTime":2333.172,"body":"are located has been shown, but-"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2333.172,"endTime":2333.231,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2333.811,"endTime":2335.672,"body":"... More importantly, though, the thing,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2335.672,"endTime":2335.911,"body":"the thing"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2336.431,"endTime":2338.711,"body":"that you brought up, the two of you brought up, and this is a"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2338.711,"endTime":2342.55,"body":"little controversial against Michael, is 'cause, you know,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2344.391,"endTime":2348.112,"body":"friction is really important. Like, I love friction. I know"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2348.112,"endTime":2349.751,"body":"that goes against what some of the things that you say at"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2349.751,"endTime":2350.661,"body":"times. [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":2350.661,"endTime":2351.112,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2351.112,"endTime":2354.431,"body":"But yeah, I mean, because friction is where we"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2354.431,"endTime":2357.072,"body":"learn, but more than that, it's when I think about what's at the"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2357.072,"endTime":2359.851,"body":"end of the line, right? At the end of the line, if you're not,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2361.211,"endTime":2364.132,"body":"if you're not delving deep into these faculties, developing"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2364.132,"endTime":2367.771,"body":"these faculties, these capabilities, these skills, and,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2367.771,"endTime":2369.922,"body":"and again, I'm not just all about skills here."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2371.572,"endTime":2374.851,"body":"You're lead- people then are leading their lives to misery,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2374.851,"endTime":2377.231,"body":"whether they know it or not. You know, we're, we're talking about"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2377.231,"endTime":2379.731,"body":"the bona vita right now, right? What is the good life? What is"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2379.731,"endTime":2383.911,"body":"the richness of life? What's the point of living? You know, it-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2383.911,"endTime":2386.032,"body":"the more you offload, the... Like you said, the more you"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2386.032,"endTime":2390.391,"body":"fake, you're just leading towards misery. Whereas, you"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2390.391,"endTime":2394.271,"body":"know, why are we enthralled as human beings? Why do we have joy"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2394.271,"endTime":2397.771,"body":"as Christians? It's because amidst all the friction, we've"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2397.771,"endTime":2401.351,"body":"learned to do really good things, and our product"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2402.331,"endTime":2405.311,"body":"is not about being productive. It's about"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2406.231,"endTime":2410.052,"body":"actually doing things in this material, f- real, natural"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2410.052,"endTime":2411.521,"body":"world, and recognizing that"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2412.391,"endTime":2416.271,"body":"a lot of the times, these things that we do are good, and they're"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2416.271,"endTime":2419.692,"body":"beautiful, and that brings joy and satisfaction amidst all the"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2419.692,"endTime":2421.512,"body":"challenges and all the muck. And so"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2422.211,"endTime":2423.452,"body":"for me, it's always about"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2424.351,"endTime":2427.572,"body":"we wanna train our students, 'cause r- let's be very clear,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2427.572,"endTime":2429.811,"body":"you know, as academicians, what are we in the business of? We're"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2429.811,"endTime":2432.211,"body":"not just in the f- business of academic formation."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2433.112,"endTime":2435.172,"body":"We're in the business of spiritual formation as well. And"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2435.172,"endTime":2435.452,"body":"so-"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":2435.452,"endTime":2435.46,"body":"Amen"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2435.46,"endTime":2438.891,"body":"... What does that mean? Helping develop people to"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2438.891,"endTime":2441.311,"body":"live and have and enjoy a better life,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2441.871,"endTime":2445.871,"body":"because in our beliefs, what do we believe? That the chief end"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2445.871,"endTime":2448.972,"body":"of man is what? To love the Lord and know Him as fully as"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2448.972,"endTime":2449.931,"body":"possible-"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":2449.931,"endTime":2450.112,"body":"Amen"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2450.112,"endTime":2452.992,"body":"... And then enjoy Him, and what this means on this"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2452.992,"endTime":2456.971,"body":"planet. And, this is where, like, the evangelist in me kind"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2456.971,"endTime":2457.891,"body":"of kicks in, right?"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2458.931,"endTime":2461.592,"body":"Like, when you do street evangelism for the first time,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2461.592,"endTime":2464.061,"body":"it is absolutely terrifying. [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":2464.061,"endTime":2464.112,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2464.112,"endTime":2466.711,"body":"It brings you that reckoning moment, like, \"Oh, my"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2466.711,"endTime":2469.751,"body":"gosh, what am I doing on the beach here in, on Third Street"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2469.751,"endTime":2473.431,"body":"Promenade in LA,\" right, \"in Santa Monica?\" But when you do"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2473.431,"endTime":2476.632,"body":"it, and you- because you believe in it, you literally believe"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2476.632,"endTime":2480.891,"body":"that you are here to bring good to the world, that's living. You"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2480.891,"endTime":2481.911,"body":"know, that is"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2482.592,"endTime":2485.692,"body":"pursuing and then recognizing that all the things in your life"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2485.692,"endTime":2489.322,"body":"experience, the memories, the emotional context,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2489.851,"endTime":2492.891,"body":"can be brought to bring a tremendous good to people around"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2492.891,"endTime":2496.411,"body":"you that you've never met before. And what throws me off"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2496.411,"endTime":2498.052,"body":"half the time when I do this is"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2498.851,"endTime":2501.311,"body":"I am actually surprised that people want to listen to me,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2502.132,"endTime":2505.891,"body":"that people actually care, that I am out there on the street"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2505.891,"endTime":2508.552,"body":"trying to share with them the word of God, that there is hope"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2508.552,"endTime":2510.452,"body":"in this world, that there is a good out there."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2511.132,"endTime":2514.692,"body":"What blows me away is not the doing, you know, and just like"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2514.692,"endTime":2516.931,"body":"Michael says, it's not about the tech, it's about the person."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2516.931,"endTime":2519.632,"body":"What blows me away is that people are actually receptive."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2520.771,"endTime":2521.702,"body":"Hey, Johan, let me jump in-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2521.702,"endTime":2521.702,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2521.702,"endTime":2523.012,"body":"... And ask you this before we-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2523.012,"endTime":2523.211,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2523.211,"endTime":2525.351,"body":"... Shift back. One of the arguments that"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2525.351,"endTime":2529.052,"body":"Mehretu is making is a common argument for the soul."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2529.052,"endTime":2529.751,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2529.751,"endTime":2531.672,"body":"That there's third-person access."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2531.672,"endTime":2531.771,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2531.771,"endTime":2533.112,"body":"You could study someone's brain-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2533.112,"endTime":2533.291,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2533.291,"endTime":2535.831,"body":"... But then there's first-person access that"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2535.831,"endTime":2539.492,"body":"you can only get by asking the person to reveal it."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2539.492,"endTime":2540.351,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2540.351,"endTime":2542.751,"body":"So I would- I could know in principle maybe"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2542.751,"endTime":2544.382,"body":"your emotional state-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2544.382,"endTime":2544.382,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2544.382,"endTime":2546.532,"body":"... Angry, anxious, sad, but I could never"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2546.532,"endTime":2550.512,"body":"know what's driving it unless you tell me."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2551.032,"endTime":2553.632,"body":"So there's an interaction between the mind and the brain"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2553.632,"endTime":2556.652,"body":"in terms of maybe where memories and how they're stored."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2556.652,"endTime":2557.152,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2557.152,"endTime":2559.931,"body":"But the content of that would require a"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2559.931,"endTime":2561.211,"body":"first-person-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2561.211,"endTime":2561.672,"body":"Yes"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2561.672,"endTime":2562.871,"body":"... Reveal. You agree with that?"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2562.871,"endTime":2563.672,"body":"Yes, I-"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2563.672,"endTime":2563.681,"body":"Okay"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2563.681,"endTime":2565.371,"body":"... And I have to, because neuroscience has"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2565.371,"endTime":2569.032,"body":"indicated-... From what are called near-death experiences,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2569.032,"endTime":2569.771,"body":"NDEs."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2569.771,"endTime":2570.032,"body":"Love it."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2570.032,"endTime":2571.632,"body":"People who have,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2572.391,"endTime":2575.731,"body":"essentially been brain dead, potentially physiologically dead"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2575.731,"endTime":2580.211,"body":"on the surgical operating table, and they experience, an ability"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2580.211,"endTime":2582.791,"body":"after they're resuscitated and revived, that they can"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2582.791,"endTime":2585.311,"body":"completely recall the events that were happening in that"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2585.311,"endTime":2588.592,"body":"operating room while they were unconscious and unable to see"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2588.592,"endTime":2592.731,"body":"visually, unable to hear, whatever it is, right? And"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2592.731,"endTime":2595.711,"body":"enough of those instances have been surfaced in academic"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2595.711,"endTime":2598.452,"body":"literature, not on the orders of tens and hundreds, but literally"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2598.452,"endTime":2602.371,"body":"thousands. That's not a trend, that's a pattern. That is"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2602.371,"endTime":2605.052,"body":"observed phenomena. And so whenever you have observed"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2605.052,"endTime":2608.311,"body":"phenomena like that, as a scientist, I must reconcile that"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2608.311,"endTime":2609.061,"body":"that is"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2609.871,"endTime":2613.592,"body":"a real thing, right? And it's been reproduced and reported"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2613.592,"endTime":2614.791,"body":"literally thousands of times."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2615.371,"endTime":2617.192,"body":"So that indicates there is something"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2617.871,"endTime":2621.592,"body":"in the first person, distinct from the physical, biological"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2621.592,"endTime":2625.871,"body":"reality of the brain, that is able to be aware, able to hear,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2625.871,"endTime":2629.492,"body":"listen, cog-, cogitate, cognate, and also"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2630.052,"endTime":2634.172,"body":"process, and then, be able to indicate that there was"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2635.072,"endTime":2637.952,"body":"an emotional component there. There was a physiological"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2637.952,"endTime":2640.672,"body":"sensory component there, completely devoid of the human"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2640.672,"endTime":2645.331,"body":"corpora. And so, yes, I, the evidence indicates that I have"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2645.331,"endTime":2646.771,"body":"to believe that there is a first person."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2646.771,"endTime":2648.291,"body":"And the key to that is... And then I'll come"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2648.291,"endTime":2648.922,"body":"over to you. The key to that-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2648.922,"endTime":2649.052,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2649.052,"endTime":2650.992,"body":"... Is people come back and have information-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2650.992,"endTime":2651.342,"body":"Yes"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2651.342,"endTime":2653.112,"body":"... They could not have had while their brain"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2653.112,"endTime":2654.422,"body":"is not registering-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2654.422,"endTime":2654.422,"body":"Yeah, correct"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2654.422,"endTime":2655.472,"body":"... Any activity."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2655.472,"endTime":2655.521,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2656.072,"endTime":2656.851,"body":"One more thought, then we're going to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2656.851,"endTime":2657.472,"body":"shift back to AI."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2657.472,"endTime":2659.952,"body":"Yeah. So I'm going to go back to memory."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2659.952,"endTime":2660.072,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2660.072,"endTime":2662.371,"body":"So I've recently given a kind of"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2662.371,"endTime":2664.472,"body":"interview on memory stuff, and,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2665.431,"endTime":2667.711,"body":"you're absolutely right. I mean, there are hippocampus-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2667.711,"endTime":2667.931,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2667.931,"endTime":2669.431,"body":"... For example, is implicated in, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2669.431,"endTime":2670.652,"body":"facilitating memory and-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2670.652,"endTime":2670.722,"body":"Yeah, DG3"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2670.722,"endTime":2672.891,"body":"... Synaptic connections, and so on. Yeah. So"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2672.891,"endTime":2676.172,"body":"here's a conundrum about memory. You read a book, let's say three"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2676.172,"endTime":2680.351,"body":"of us read a book, and we threw that book away, and we meet like"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2680.351,"endTime":2682.911,"body":"this- ... And all of a sudden start talking about the book."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2682.911,"endTime":2686.552,"body":"What went from that book to your wherever it went? You didn't"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2686.552,"endTime":2687.931,"body":"chew up the book."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2687.931,"endTime":2688.132,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2688.132,"endTime":2688.992,"body":"You didn't."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2688.992,"endTime":2690.862,"body":"Protein synthesis. You produced- [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2690.862,"endTime":2690.871,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2690.871,"endTime":2692.972,"body":"... A memory of the book. That's a, that's a"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2692.972,"endTime":2693.411,"body":"model."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2693.411,"endTime":2693.452,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2693.452,"endTime":2694.052,"body":"That's a theory."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2694.052,"endTime":2694.472,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2694.472,"endTime":2696.472,"body":"So we don't confuse model and theory-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2696.472,"endTime":2696.71,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2696.71,"endTime":2698.652,"body":"... As if it's explaining what the"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2698.652,"endTime":2700.751,"body":"mysterious aspect of how memory actually works."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2700.751,"endTime":2701.132,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2701.132,"endTime":2703.452,"body":"So we read, okay, I didn't chew out the book. I"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2703.452,"endTime":2707.092,"body":"have no idea how the information went from that book, wherever it"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2707.092,"endTime":2707.411,"body":"went."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2707.411,"endTime":2707.672,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2707.672,"endTime":2709.492,"body":"No idea whatsoever. And"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2710.172,"endTime":2714.242,"body":"so we have this incredible, capacity to compartmentalize our"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2714.242,"endTime":2716.952,"body":"own memory lives. Like, if I were to ask you about your life"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2716.952,"endTime":2719.612,"body":"history, you're not gonna confuse that with your"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2719.612,"endTime":2721.802,"body":"responsibility that you have here at Biola. I mean, you,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2721.802,"endTime":2725.271,"body":"you're not going to talk about your students and j- you're at"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2725.271,"endTime":2727.851,"body":"ease. You pull that information out-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2727.851,"endTime":2728.231,"body":"Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2729.172,"endTime":2730.251,"body":"... Within the context"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2730.791,"endTime":2733.512,"body":"that required you to do, to do that kind of stuff. So your"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2733.512,"endTime":2734.672,"body":"family life, blah-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2734.672,"endTime":2734.862,"body":"Sure"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2734.862,"endTime":2737.581,"body":"... Okay. Peer, peer into my brain"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2738.271,"endTime":2741.152,"body":"using any kind of technology you like, you're not going to be"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2741.152,"endTime":2743.952,"body":"able to answer that question. You're not. You're not going to"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2743.952,"endTime":2746.652,"body":"show me a file. You're not going to show me, \"Oh, his history is"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2746.652,"endTime":2749.351,"body":"over there. His history is just one inch away from the"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2749.351,"endTime":2751.931,"body":"hippocampus toward the limbic system,\" and so on. You, you're"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2751.931,"endTime":2755.431,"body":"not gonna be able to do that. So there is a deep mystery here. I"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2755.431,"endTime":2758.311,"body":"also don't believe that the bearer of memory is your"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2758.311,"endTime":2761.351,"body":"physical organ, your brain. Your brain has actually a limited"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2761.351,"endTime":2765.251,"body":"capacity, spatial wise, but you have potentially infinite"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2765.251,"endTime":2767.552,"body":"[chuckles] ... You have a capacity to memorize infinite"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2767.552,"endTime":2769.811,"body":"amount of information. Potentially, I say it. Not"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2769.811,"endTime":2773.652,"body":"actually, potentially. So the brain, as a physical organ, is a"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2773.652,"endTime":2779.172,"body":"limited space. So if you have an ability to contain potentially"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2779.172,"endTime":2782.452,"body":"infinite amount of information, then it's not the brain that's"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2782.452,"endTime":2783.612,"body":"doing the magic."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2784.132,"endTime":2785.751,"body":"Something deeply mysterious."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2785.751,"endTime":2787.121,"body":"Something beyond the brain."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2787.121,"endTime":2787.141,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2787.141,"endTime":2787.152,"body":"Mainly the soul."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2787.152,"endTime":2790.231,"body":"Beliefs are not born by the brain, desires are"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2790.231,"endTime":2793.731,"body":"not born by brain, memory is not born by brain. All non-physical"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2793.731,"endTime":2796.952,"body":"properties are not born by brain. Brain is important, I'm"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2796.952,"endTime":2799.371,"body":"not doubting. Healthy functioning of the brain is"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2799.371,"endTime":2800.831,"body":"absolutely necessary, but it's not sufficient."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2800.831,"endTime":2802.041,"body":"Like you said, it's both. It's-"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2802.041,"endTime":2803.371,"body":"But it's not sufficient. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2803.371,"endTime":2805.172,"body":"Good stuff. All right, I wanna know where"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2805.771,"endTime":2810.032,"body":"each of you think maybe AI technology is headed. And you"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2810.032,"endTime":2813.711,"body":"could pick six weeks, you could pick six months, you could pick"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2813.711,"endTime":2818.012,"body":"six years. What's something you see that's maybe on the horizon,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2818.012,"endTime":2822.411,"body":"or maybe in your case, where this conversation is headed?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2822.931,"endTime":2825.512,"body":"Where do you see some of the technology headed?"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2826.471,"endTime":2827.882,"body":"That's a big question."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2827.882,"endTime":2827.902,"body":"Yeah. [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2827.902,"endTime":2827.952,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2827.952,"endTime":2829.652,"body":"Honestly, I need a lot more time to think through"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2829.652,"endTime":2829.931,"body":"that-"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":2829.931,"endTime":2829.942,"body":"Yes. [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2829.942,"endTime":2831.152,"body":"... Because, you know,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2832.251,"endTime":2836.211,"body":"being in the b- in the business of AI research, you're, you're"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2836.211,"endTime":2838.572,"body":"focused on what is in front of you. And so-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2838.572,"endTime":2838.931,"body":"Okay"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2838.931,"endTime":2839.192,"body":"... So"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2839.731,"endTime":2842.092,"body":"my ability to do long-term projection is a little bit on"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2842.092,"endTime":2843.271,"body":"the weaker side. Um-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2843.271,"endTime":2843.652,"body":"That's fair"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2843.652,"endTime":2847.211,"body":"... But when I think about immediately, like, where"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2847.211,"endTime":2847.972,"body":"is it headed?"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2849.072,"endTime":2852.032,"body":"Obviously, it's retooling industries right now."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2853.831,"endTime":2858.811,"body":"It is unfortunately playing far too big of a part in,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2859.472,"endTime":2861.972,"body":"our media and consumptive abilities."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2863.692,"endTime":2866.692,"body":"The concerns that Mehrdad, too, he and I actually share this"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2866.692,"endTime":2869.291,"body":"concern- it's, it's, you know, when you don't read that book"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2869.291,"endTime":2873.072,"body":"cover to cover, you just miss out on a ton. Primary sources"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2873.072,"endTime":2875.652,"body":"are critical because you have to do the mental frictional"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2875.652,"endTime":2876.351,"body":"exercise-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2876.351,"endTime":2876.891,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2876.891,"endTime":2879.391,"body":"... Of, \"Wait, did I just... \" You know, \"I read this"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2879.391,"endTime":2882.472,"body":"paragraph. It's in English. It's really hard. What did I just"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2882.472,"endTime":2885.271,"body":"read?\" That, that exercise of going back and rehearsing and"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2885.271,"endTime":2885.612,"body":"trying to"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2886.391,"endTime":2889.271,"body":"muck through that- ... Or go through that harder equation"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2889.271,"endTime":2890.552,"body":"from, you know,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2891.092,"endTime":2893.711,"body":"into triple integral calculus. You know, like,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2894.552,"endTime":2896.612,"body":"those p- bits are there. So there's gonna be a friction,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2896.612,"endTime":2899.871,"body":"there's gonna be a tension there. On the other hand,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2899.871,"endTime":2904.472,"body":"there's the really exciting, wonderful things. So, 6G"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2904.472,"endTime":2906.371,"body":"wireless is coming very soon."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2906.952,"endTime":2910.271,"body":"The ability to transmit and consume information at scale"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2910.271,"endTime":2911.271,"body":"much quicker,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2911.851,"endTime":2915.271,"body":"greater volume and velocity is gonna make our interaction with"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2915.271,"endTime":2917.972,"body":"digital spaces much more immersive and consuming-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2918.632,"endTime":2921.012,"body":"... Which comes with all the negatives, as you can imagine."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2921.012,"endTime":2921.42,"body":"Of course, of course."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2922.052,"endTime":2923.311,"body":"Other areas where I think,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2923.871,"endTime":2927.791,"body":"where AI is taking us is a mechanized reality, where, you"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2927.791,"endTime":2930.291,"body":"know- ... When you think about fourth industrial revolution now"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2930.291,"endTime":2933.251,"body":"and transhumanism, there is always going to be a secular"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2933.251,"endTime":2936.632,"body":"push to roboticize things and replace humans where they"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2936.632,"endTime":2939.811,"body":"shouldn't be replaced. So we have to be mindful of that. But"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2939.811,"endTime":2945.635,"body":"where it could be incredibly helpful is, um-... In developing"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2945.635,"endTime":2950.235,"body":"and discovering new, you know, whether it's potential, advances"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2950.235,"endTime":2954.835,"body":"in medicine- -uh, new means of, better managing resources,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2954.835,"endTime":2957.135,"body":"material resources on the Earth, how to do"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2957.695,"endTime":2961.275,"body":"extraction for energy- ... Better, faster, with a much"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2961.275,"endTime":2966.275,"body":"smaller, destructive footprint, all of these. So for me, I love"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2966.275,"endTime":2971.115,"body":"AI in the sense of its discovery potential as a tool for- ... Hu-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2971.115,"endTime":2974.516,"body":"increasing the human condition economically. Like, the area"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2974.516,"endTime":2976.414,"body":"that I get really excited about is,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2977.976,"endTime":2980.856,"body":"AI to better train robots for eldercare."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2981.556,"endTime":2984.655,"body":"Like, we're in Southern California. A massive, um-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2984.655,"endTime":2984.686,"body":"Oh"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2984.686,"endTime":2987.056,"body":"... Demographic explosion is gonna happen"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2987.056,"endTime":2990.175,"body":"soon, and skilled nursing facilities, the first thing they"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2990.175,"endTime":2993.496,"body":"bring up is, \"Our biggest challenge is, oh, is, turnover."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2993.496,"endTime":2996.295,"body":"We don't have enough skilled nurses. We have more patients"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2996.295,"endTime":2996.936,"body":"than we can s-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":2997.956,"endTime":3000.275,"body":"to meet the needs of the way that we would want to as"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3000.275,"endTime":3005.115,"body":"individuals.\" And so robots for skilled nursing to s- assist"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3005.115,"endTime":3008.266,"body":"people who cannot afford it, folks who cannot,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3009.275,"endTime":3012.695,"body":"get the level of discreet care necessary- ... That's the thing"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3012.695,"endTime":3015.356,"body":"that gets me excited. But then all the negatives come with"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3015.356,"endTime":3017.706,"body":"that, and so I'm constantly schizophrenic between"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3018.235,"endTime":3020.476,"body":"what I need to manage and what I need to advance."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3020.476,"endTime":3021.835,"body":"That's like a whole show in itself-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3021.835,"endTime":3021.846,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3021.846,"endTime":3023.576,"body":"... 'cause we talk about not wanting to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3023.576,"endTime":3024.394,"body":"dehumanize."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3024.394,"endTime":3025.215,"body":"Correct."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3025.215,"endTime":3027.255,"body":"And a robot can't replace presence-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3027.255,"endTime":3027.356,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3027.356,"endTime":3029.715,"body":"... But can it help with somebody who literally"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3029.715,"endTime":3031.686,"body":"has no one or-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3031.686,"endTime":3031.686,"body":"Yes"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3031.686,"endTime":3033.414,"body":"... Not anything to help them-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3033.414,"endTime":3033.516,"body":"Yes"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3033.516,"endTime":3035.255,"body":"... As a part of the process-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3035.255,"endTime":3036.016,"body":"Yes"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3036.016,"endTime":3037.735,"body":"... That's where it could potentially-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3037.735,"endTime":3038.195,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3038.195,"endTime":3040.394,"body":"... Help out. That's amazing. I just saw a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3040.394,"endTime":3042.476,"body":"study on AI this week. They were talking about trying to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3042.476,"endTime":3043.735,"body":"replicate the hand-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3043.735,"endTime":3044.356,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3044.356,"endTime":3046.175,"body":"... And how it's one of the hardest things 'cause"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3046.175,"endTime":3048.356,"body":"there's so many sensors on the hand."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3048.356,"endTime":3049.215,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3049.215,"endTime":3050.996,"body":"Which, to me, is an argument for intelligent"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3050.996,"endTime":3054.976,"body":"design, how it would've happened by chance- ... But I digress."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3054.976,"endTime":3057.036,"body":"Tell us a little, Michael, how you see what's maybe on the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3057.036,"endTime":3059.016,"body":"horizon in the business world."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3060.815,"endTime":3062.945,"body":"It's, it's a really hard question to answer-"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3062.945,"endTime":3065.615,"body":"... 'cause I don't, I don't think any of us really know."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3065.615,"endTime":3065.625,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3065.625,"endTime":3069.195,"body":"And we've never seen a technology move at this,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3069.195,"endTime":3071.076,"body":"this velocity. I mean, it's just incredible."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3071.076,"endTime":3072.175,"body":"Ever, in your lifetime-"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3072.175,"endTime":3072.184,"body":"Yeah, we-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3072.184,"endTime":3073.653,"body":"... Any technology we think of-"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3073.653,"endTime":3075.275,"body":"I mean, we have broken Moore's law, right? I"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3075.275,"endTime":3078.315,"body":"mean- ... Moore's law would say that, you know, compute capacity"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3078.315,"endTime":3081.036,"body":"is going to double every 18 months, every 18 months to two"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3081.036,"endTime":3085.885,"body":"years. You know, the, you know, we know just from NVIDIA alone,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3085.885,"endTime":3089.635,"body":"that the, you know, the last NVIDIA chip increased inference"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3089.635,"endTime":3091.635,"body":"by 30x from the previous one."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3091.635,"endTime":3091.956,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3091.956,"endTime":3094.916,"body":"I mean, we've never seen technology like this."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3094.916,"endTime":3099.315,"body":"So, so the speed and velocity, And we've only really"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3099.315,"endTime":3101.976,"body":"seen generative AI. I mean, that's the, that's the buzz,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3101.976,"endTime":3104.635,"body":"right? That's what we're talking about, and it's actually"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3104.635,"endTime":3107.795,"body":"hit us in places that we didn't think it would hit first, which"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3107.795,"endTime":3109.195,"body":"is, like, software development"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3109.875,"endTime":3113.625,"body":"and, you know, some of those areas. You know, I mean, I,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3113.625,"endTime":3117.875,"body":"I'm very long on the, you know- ... The discovery capacity of"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3117.875,"endTime":3121.835,"body":"AI. I think DeepMind- ... Is doing some incredible stuff."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3121.835,"endTime":3126.056,"body":"Disco- I mean, there was one study recently where in 17 days"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3126.056,"endTime":3130.675,"body":"they discovered, I think it was, I think it was 400,000 new hard"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3130.675,"endTime":3135.476,"body":"materials. And that would've taken us, as human beings, 800"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3135.476,"endTime":3136.976,"body":"years to discover."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3136.976,"endTime":3137.405,"body":"Wow! [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3137.405,"endTime":3137.606,"body":"So, so-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3137.606,"endTime":3138.635,"body":"17 days. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3138.635,"endTime":3142.155,"body":"So 17 days of, you know, you know, 800 years"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3142.155,"endTime":3142.545,"body":"collapsed to 17 days."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3142.545,"endTime":3144.456,"body":"That's amazing."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3144.456,"endTime":3146.496,"body":"So, like, the breakthrough possibilities on"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3146.496,"endTime":3149.715,"body":"things like what will you- how will you power your next"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3149.715,"endTime":3153.155,"body":"vehicle? It's, and- ... You know, the medical breakthroughs,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3153.155,"endTime":3157.215,"body":"I mean, we've already been able to use AI in a, in a fairly"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3157.215,"endTime":3161.795,"body":"crude format from where it will be to, you know, increase, you"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3161.795,"endTime":3165.695,"body":"know, breast cancer detection by 17%. You know, so you start to"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3165.695,"endTime":3170.976,"body":"think about these medical areas, I feel really good. The, my-- on"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3170.976,"endTime":3173.556,"body":"the opposite side of that, so it's less about the tech, and"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3173.556,"endTime":3175.635,"body":"it's more about the concentration of where the"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3175.635,"endTime":3176.615,"body":"tech's being built-"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3177.166,"endTime":3179.916,"body":"... You know, I'm, I'm concerned about this thing that's now"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3179.916,"endTime":3184.295,"body":"being called, you know, abundant AI. You know, how do we, how do"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3184.295,"endTime":3188.096,"body":"we make AI more abundant, like, more accessible to everybody? It"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3188.096,"endTime":3192.016,"body":"sounds good, right? It sounds great, except for the"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3192.016,"endTime":3194.806,"body":"concentration of the people who are trying to do that is-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3194.806,"endTime":3195.115,"body":"The cost"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3195.115,"endTime":3197.295,"body":"... Really locked in to three, four, or"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3197.295,"endTime":3200.916,"body":"five different organizations that are, you know, in strange"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3200.916,"endTime":3202.016,"body":"ways, investing-"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3202.815,"endTime":3206.956,"body":"... Billions of dollars in one another. So it's become a bit of"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3206.956,"endTime":3210.335,"body":"a closed society, and I think we, as believers, need to"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3210.335,"endTime":3214.585,"body":"be concerned. Even the term abundant AI, right?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3214.585,"endTime":3214.615,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3214.615,"endTime":3216.856,"body":"We know what abundance means, and, you know,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3216.856,"endTime":3220.335,"body":"we know- ... You know, what John 10-10 says, that Christ came to"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3220.335,"endTime":3224.934,"body":"give us life abundantly. So the deception, even the deception of"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3224.934,"endTime":3229.894,"body":"that- ... Is scary. So, so, you know, on a medical discovery"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3229.894,"endTime":3234.275,"body":"breakthrough side, it's, it's going to be astounding. On the"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3234.275,"endTime":3238.516,"body":"misuse, limited, you know, sort of isolation of power and who,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3238.516,"endTime":3240.356,"body":"who has control over those things,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3240.875,"endTime":3242.894,"body":"you know, I'm, I'm super scared."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3242.894,"endTime":3244.596,"body":"How much of it, if you can say in the business"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3244.596,"endTime":3247.356,"body":"world, is really the technology"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3247.996,"endTime":3251.115,"body":"and the use of it is driven by money?"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3251.775,"endTime":3253.916,"body":"I don't know if I can give a percentage,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3253.916,"endTime":3257.016,"body":"but I will say that it's the first, second, third thought-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3257.016,"endTime":3258.996,"body":"That answers my question [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3258.996,"endTime":3259.625,"body":"... Of people-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3259.625,"endTime":3259.644,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3259.644,"endTime":3259.644,"body":"Fair"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3259.644,"endTime":3261.096,"body":"... People who are applying this, right?"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3261.635,"endTime":3264.996,"body":"And, I have never... I've been driving change inside"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3264.996,"endTime":3269.916,"body":"corporations my entire career. I have never seen a change"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3269.916,"endTime":3272.715,"body":"mandated upon people more, with more-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3272.715,"endTime":3272.795,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3272.795,"endTime":3276.076,"body":"... Velocity and aggression from the top down"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3276.076,"endTime":3277.286,"body":"than what I've seen this."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3277.894,"endTime":3281.036,"body":"And, and the human beings aren't ready to, you know, adopt it"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3281.036,"endTime":3281.835,"body":"completely- ... Because"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3282.434,"endTime":3285.036,"body":"we're going to give up something that's essential to us. You"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3285.036,"endTime":3287.115,"body":"know, the co- the conversation we were having"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3287.115,"endTime":3291.215,"body":"before, you know, \"I built my identity in this work that I've"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3291.215,"endTime":3294.956,"body":"mastered- ... And I'm being forced to use a solution that"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3294.956,"endTime":3299.295,"body":"will put me out of business from that perspective.\" So, so yeah,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3299.295,"endTime":3301.726,"body":"the commerce part of this is driving it."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3302.375,"endTime":3305.416,"body":"All these other conversations we're having, they need to catch"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3305.416,"endTime":3306.023,"body":"up."},{"speaker":"Speaker","startTime":3306.023,"endTime":3308.344,"body":"... And I think that's our obligation. Our obligation"},{"speaker":"Speaker","startTime":3308.344,"endTime":3312.304,"body":"is to lean in more aggressively on the ethics side, on, you"},{"speaker":"Speaker","startTime":3312.304,"endTime":3315.623,"body":"know, the consciousness side, all these other things, because"},{"speaker":"Speaker","startTime":3315.623,"endTime":3318.164,"body":"otherwise, commerce will drive this."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3318.164,"endTime":3320.143,"body":"Man, that's definitely a- that's a scary"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3320.143,"endTime":3322.403,"body":"thought, and we'll come back to how each of you are leading the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3322.403,"endTime":3325.744,"body":"way in that regard. I'm gonna throw a wrench your way, Mehret."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3325.744,"endTime":3327.844,"body":"You said something earlier that's kind of in the back of my"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3327.844,"endTime":3331.483,"body":"mind. What I've h- been hearing people say, maybe for the past"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3331.483,"endTime":3334.463,"body":"few decades, is when will, like, computers and thinking"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3334.983,"endTime":3339.483,"body":"catch up with human beings? You said it earlier, there's a push"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3339.483,"endTime":3343.164,"body":"to show that it's surpassed human beings, and we are"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3343.164,"endTime":3344.264,"body":"inferior."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3344.264,"endTime":3344.623,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3344.623,"endTime":3346.864,"body":"Is that a shift that you've seen? Is that where"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3346.864,"endTime":3350.043,"body":"kind of the conversation is going? Like, \"Catch up. Clearly,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3350.043,"endTime":3351.603,"body":"AI is superior than human beings.\""},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3351.603,"endTime":3354.083,"body":"Yeah, I think, [clears throat] okay, if this is"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3354.083,"endTime":3359.023,"body":"exactly what proponents of, strong AI want to do."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3359.023,"endTime":3359.923,"body":"Define strong AI."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3359.923,"endTime":3363.463,"body":"A strong AI is the idea that computers are not"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3363.463,"endTime":3367.563,"body":"simple tools. Computers can ontologically be superior to"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3367.563,"endTime":3370.134,"body":"human beings, their own invest- inver-"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3370.664,"endTime":3372.643,"body":"inventors and then creators. Um-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3372.643,"endTime":3374.143,"body":"So they're not just, to use the way Michael"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3374.143,"endTime":3374.744,"body":"framed it earlier-"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3374.744,"endTime":3374.753,"body":"No"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3374.753,"endTime":3377.244,"body":"... They're not just imitating human thinking."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3377.244,"endTime":3377.833,"body":"That would be-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3377.833,"endTime":3380.164,"body":"They are really doing it- ... And going beyond"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3380.164,"endTime":3380.173,"body":"that."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3380.173,"endTime":3382.884,"body":"That would be weak AI. So weak AI, just"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3382.884,"endTime":3386.184,"body":"playing computers and, you know, computers can allow you to do"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3386.184,"endTime":3389.344,"body":"XYZ. That's fine. They are our servants, and we can get things"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3389.344,"endTime":3393.463,"body":"done. The strong AI is entirely predicated upon philosophical"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3393.463,"endTime":3397.043,"body":"assumption that, we can create superintelligence."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3397.043,"endTime":3398.204,"body":"Superintelligence,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3398.903,"endTime":3402.643,"body":"is an kind of a hardcore evidence that you are inferior"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3402.643,"endTime":3404.603,"body":"to your own gadgets."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3405.704,"endTime":3410.023,"body":"That's exactly what they do, and they write about it, and they"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3410.023,"endTime":3414.963,"body":"argue for that, premise. And, you know, and I think that's not"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3414.963,"endTime":3415.364,"body":"possible"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3416.003,"endTime":3416.603,"body":"because,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3417.884,"endTime":3420.643,"body":"I'm actually working on a mathematical model that I think"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3420.643,"endTime":3423.003,"body":"for the past seven years or something like that."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3424.164,"endTime":3426.244,"body":"I call it N plus one. So"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3427.164,"endTime":3430.003,"body":"earlier, I said that everything that we've invented so far is a"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3430.003,"endTime":3432.103,"body":"reflection of our creativity."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3432.103,"endTime":3432.543,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3432.543,"endTime":3434.903,"body":"AI is not like something that descended from"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3434.903,"endTime":3436.983,"body":"heaven, [chuckles] you know? And no matter how complicated it is-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3436.983,"endTime":3438.623,"body":"Or evolved naturally."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3438.623,"endTime":3439.103,"body":"Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3439.103,"endTime":3439.483,"body":"It's-"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3439.483,"endTime":3440.793,"body":"Yeah, it didn't come through natural-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3440.793,"endTime":3440.813,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3440.813,"endTime":3443.983,"body":"... Selection or kind of evolutionary stages. It"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3443.983,"endTime":3448.143,"body":"took hours and hours, years of collaboration among experts and"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3448.143,"endTime":3448.403,"body":"so on-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3448.403,"endTime":3448.414,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3448.414,"endTime":3450.224,"body":"... And they write algorithms and programs"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3450.224,"endTime":3453.903,"body":"and so on. I mean, it's literally ironic to say... You"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3453.903,"endTime":3456.503,"body":"look back at what you've done and say, \"Yeah, you are superior"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3456.503,"endTime":3458.603,"body":"to me.\" What does that mean? You're already ahead of that"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3458.603,"endTime":3461.523,"body":"because it took you to bring that into being. So it's"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3461.523,"endTime":3465.164,"body":"impossible to narrow that gap. That's not a, that's not a"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3465.164,"endTime":3467.943,"body":"physical gap. That's not a technological gap. That's"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3467.943,"endTime":3472.063,"body":"ontological gap- ... Not a metaphysical gap. So, for"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3472.063,"endTime":3476.384,"body":"example, at no point, none of us would say, \"Oh, now we are"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3476.384,"endTime":3479.324,"body":"equal to God, shoulder to shoulder, and God is inferior to"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3479.324,"endTime":3482.844,"body":"us because we created these gadgets, and he didn't.\" Well,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3482.844,"endTime":3484.684,"body":"who did give you the infrastructure, the"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3484.684,"endTime":3485.884,"body":"cognitive infrastructure,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3486.403,"endTime":3489.364,"body":"that allowed you to do this? God. If God is not"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3489.364,"endTime":3491.824,"body":"metaphysically superior to you, so you're not going to be able"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3491.824,"endTime":3495.123,"body":"to be in a position where God would become all of a sudden"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3495.123,"endTime":3500.083,"body":"inferior to you. We are gods to these gadgets. It took us. We"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3500.083,"endTime":3502.123,"body":"brought them into existence. It doesn't matter- ... What they"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3502.123,"endTime":3505.652,"body":"end up doing, so we shouldn't be surprised. And my-- I am laser"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3505.652,"endTime":3508.804,"body":"focused on human beings, by the way. I always appreciate human"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3508.804,"endTime":3512.824,"body":"beings. Human beings are incredibly gifted creatures. But"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3512.824,"endTime":3515.864,"body":"when they tell me that a computer gadget is superior to"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3515.864,"endTime":3519.463,"body":"me, what are you talking about? You are- ... Doubly super"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3519.463,"endTime":3522.523,"body":"intelligent. It took you to bring this into existence, so"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3522.523,"endTime":3525.403,"body":"that argument doesn't really fly. You can talk about the"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3525.403,"endTime":3528.152,"body":"smartness in a functional sense. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3528.152,"endTime":3528.164,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3528.164,"endTime":3530.043,"body":"There's a distinction between functional"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3530.043,"endTime":3534.623,"body":"smartness and natural smartness. So computers can be, yeah,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3534.623,"endTime":3537.824,"body":"functionally smarter than you because they are so fast, they"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3537.824,"endTime":3541.983,"body":"can contain and analyze a huge body of information in seconds."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3541.983,"endTime":3545.784,"body":"All right? That's functional, ability, functional smartness."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3545.784,"endTime":3547.014,"body":"That's operational ability."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3547.014,"endTime":3547.724,"body":"Yeah, operational."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3548.384,"endTime":3548.403,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3548.403,"endTime":3551.784,"body":"But you have a natural smartness that allowed"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3551.784,"endTime":3555.603,"body":"you to make such a thing be possible in the first place. So"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3555.603,"endTime":3559.523,"body":"therefore, you maintain that status, that ontological status,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3559.523,"endTime":3564.264,"body":"with zero fear of that status being hijacked, away from you by"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3564.264,"endTime":3565.264,"body":"any future,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3566.244,"endTime":3568.784,"body":"AI. So I'm not gonna lose a sleep-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3568.784,"endTime":3569.043,"body":"That's a great point"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3569.043,"endTime":3569.594,"body":"... Over it, by the way."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3569.594,"endTime":3569.603,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3569.603,"endTime":3570.184,"body":"And many people"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3571.023,"endTime":3573.623,"body":"make these hyperbolic statements, \"Oh, AI, blah,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3573.623,"endTime":3576.264,"body":"blah.\" I honestly laugh at people when they make such"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3576.264,"endTime":3580.224,"body":"arguments. [laughing] It has zero basis. They are almost me"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3580.224,"endTime":3584.043,"body":"saying, like, \"I'm not giving this interview in English.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3584.043,"endTime":3584.844,"body":"While you're doing it."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3584.844,"endTime":3584.943,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3584.943,"endTime":3585.903,"body":"Contradicts itself."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":3585.903,"endTime":3587.704,"body":"It's pretty contradictory."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3587.704,"endTime":3588.503,"body":"Fair enough. I, it,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3589.204,"endTime":3591.523,"body":"that's the importance, again, of critical thinking. What does it"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3591.523,"endTime":3597.043,"body":"mean to be human? Do we have a soul? And if AI is derivative of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3597.043,"endTime":3600.543,"body":"us, what does that say about us? We're gonna... I'm gonna ask"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3600.543,"endTime":3602.324,"body":"each of you a question. What would, what would it mean to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3602.324,"endTime":3606.403,"body":"think biblically about AI? I'd love to apply biblical stories,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3606.403,"endTime":3607.583,"body":"biblical principles,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3608.163,"endTime":3611.003,"body":"ideas to AI, I think would be helpful."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3611.523,"endTime":3613.304,"body":"One point, comment I'll make while you're thinking about"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3613.304,"endTime":3615.284,"body":"this, Mehret, too. I've always thought it's interesting is that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3615.884,"endTime":3618.083,"body":"in sci-fi movies, we make robots,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3618.643,"endTime":3622.623,"body":"they learn to think, they rebel against their creator-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3622.623,"endTime":3626.364,"body":"[chuckles] ... And then we have to save them from the rebellion."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3626.364,"endTime":3630.434,"body":"Sounds a lot like Genesis 1 through 3. Some people say-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3630.434,"endTime":3633.224,"body":"\"We're gonna have strong AI, and they're gonna rebel against us."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3633.224,"endTime":3635.204,"body":"We're gonna have to stop the rebellion.\" I'm like- We've kind"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3635.204,"endTime":3638.503,"body":"of heard this story before, which tells us there's nothing"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3638.503,"endTime":3640.784,"body":"new under the sun. But with that said,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3641.304,"endTime":3644.684,"body":"what would it mean in your field or broader, just to think"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3644.684,"endTime":3646.804,"body":"biblically about artificial intelligence?"},{"speaker":"Speaker","startTime":3648.563,"endTime":3648.824,"body":"So"},{"speaker":"Speaker","startTime":3650.123,"endTime":3654.764,"body":"I teach computer science courses, and I start every class"},{"speaker":"Speaker","startTime":3654.764,"endTime":3659.224,"body":"with, a verse of the day and an AI of the day, actually."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3659.224,"endTime":3659.724,"body":"Really? [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Speaker","startTime":3659.724,"endTime":3660.523,"body":"Yeah. Um-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3660.523,"endTime":3661.534,"body":"Interesting. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Speaker","startTime":3661.534,"endTime":3664.403,"body":"Because I'm trying to show students the correlates."},{"speaker":"Speaker","startTime":3664.403,"endTime":3666.936,"body":"Like, what does Scripture tell us to help-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3666.936,"endTime":3670.956,"body":"... Frame what an AI can do or an AI is doing right"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3670.956,"endTime":3675.155,"body":"now. Because the students of today will be the engineers,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3675.155,"endTime":3679.795,"body":"the, um- -algorithm makers, the inventors, the entrepreneurs,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3679.795,"endTime":3681.016,"body":"and the leaders of tomorrow. So"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3681.675,"endTime":3684.516,"body":"for me, it's a sobering reminder that I have a responsibility of"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3684.516,"endTime":3685.996,"body":"training up that next generation. So"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3687.476,"endTime":3689.655,"body":"when I think biblically about these things, you know, that's"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3689.655,"endTime":3692.096,"body":"an example of a tactical, practical application, right?"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3692.096,"endTime":3694.675,"body":"Here's a verse, here's an AI, how do these mesh?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3694.675,"endTime":3696.356,"body":"And by the way, you're not just throwing a verse"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3696.356,"endTime":3699.056,"body":"on there. Sometimes integration is like, \"Hey, read a verse that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3699.056,"endTime":3701.456,"body":"has nothing to do with AI or-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3701.456,"endTime":3702.516,"body":"Yeah, no. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3703.115,"endTime":3703.356,"body":"like,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3704.556,"endTime":3707.016,"body":"I was fortunate, since I'm somewhat new to this faculty, I"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3707.016,"endTime":3710.016,"body":"got to take faculty integration with David Turner. He's amazing,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3710.585,"endTime":3710.945,"body":"It's fantastic"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3710.945,"endTime":3712.436,"body":"... That integration is not an afterthought."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3712.436,"endTime":3714.755,"body":"Integration is the beginning. And so if you take that"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3714.755,"endTime":3717.876,"body":"approach, you... And I think that's just something unique"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3717.876,"endTime":3718.615,"body":"about Biola."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3719.496,"endTime":3722.255,"body":"But when you take that approach, it makes you think deeply, and"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3722.255,"endTime":3725.686,"body":"then you recognize, \"Oh my, oh my, this verse is directly"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3725.686,"endTime":3727.255,"body":"applicable to this technology.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3727.255,"endTime":3727.675,"body":"Good."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3727.675,"endTime":3730.335,"body":"\"How now do I equip students to essentially"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3731.516,"endTime":3734.096,"body":"do the right thing, be ready to do the right thing, out- and"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3734.096,"endTime":3737.056,"body":"defeat the machine in terms of being able to outwrite, outcode,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3737.056,"endTime":3740.056,"body":"out- develop a better algorithm?\" That's always"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3740.056,"endTime":3742.436,"body":"something that I'm always trying to teach students."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3742.996,"endTime":3746.635,"body":"I had a student this last summer who basically I used as a guinea"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3746.635,"endTime":3747.976,"body":"pig to,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3748.516,"endTime":3751.556,"body":"essentially determine if I could teach an undergraduate, a"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3751.556,"endTime":3755.016,"body":"junior, rising senior, the fundamental mechanics of how to"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3755.016,"endTime":3759.085,"body":"build, an AI large language model system from the ground up."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3759.085,"endTime":3759.195,"body":"Wow!"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3759.195,"endTime":3761.615,"body":"And as that progressed, and this is a very"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3761.615,"endTime":3762.835,"body":"bright student,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3764.416,"endTime":3766.976,"body":"she made this definitive exclamation to me last week, and"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3766.976,"endTime":3769.976,"body":"I said- \"So did you, did-- Were you able to"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3770.856,"endTime":3774.556,"body":"demystify the AI?\" She said, \"Oh, my gosh, it's just math.\""},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3774.556,"endTime":3775.416,"body":"And so-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3775.416,"endTime":3775.976,"body":"Interesting"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3775.976,"endTime":3779.036,"body":"... So she had that revelation moment, that, you"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3779.036,"endTime":3781.735,"body":"know, that light bulb going off. Because"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3782.516,"endTime":3786.436,"body":"over the course of the year, I taught her how to look at a, the"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3786.436,"endTime":3789.315,"body":"definitive paper behind one of the key algorithms that drives"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3789.315,"endTime":3793.076,"body":"the world, extract the mathematical equation from it,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3793.615,"endTime":3795.456,"body":"run the calculus from it by hand,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3796.096,"endTime":3799.175,"body":"then go through the code, and get the actual code that's out"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3799.175,"endTime":3802.376,"body":"there, it's open source, walk through that one by one, learn"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3802.376,"endTime":3803.306,"body":"how to manipulate it-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3803.306,"endTime":3803.306,"body":"Wow"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3803.306,"endTime":3805.516,"body":"... And have it running on her GPU machine for"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3805.516,"endTime":3811.096,"body":"the last thirty some odd days in a row. And, and she said, \"It's"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3811.096,"endTime":3815.625,"body":"just math.\" And so for that student to have that light bulb"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3815.625,"endTime":3819.175,"body":"moment go off- ... That was critical for me, my position"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3819.175,"endTime":3822.275,"body":"as an academician, as a professor. It was also critical"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3822.275,"endTime":3825.684,"body":"because then the confidence switch went on."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3826.735,"endTime":3830.615,"body":"This student now feels if she's any AI, she can design, she can"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3830.615,"endTime":3834.155,"body":"build, she can defeat, she can expand. And so,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3835.795,"endTime":3838.246,"body":"going back to the ontological piece that Mehretu was saying"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3838.246,"endTime":3841.856,"body":"is, it's-- we have to take that responsibility. \"To whom much is"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3841.856,"endTime":3843.516,"body":"given, much is expected,\" in return."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3843.516,"endTime":3843.996,"body":"Amen."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3843.996,"endTime":3845.976,"body":"You know, Philippians 4-13, right? Having"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3845.976,"endTime":3848.416,"body":"the strength to face all conditions, we need to empower"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3848.416,"endTime":3853.376,"body":"one another and the world at large, that they can- ..."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3853.376,"endTime":3856.615,"body":"Achieve far greater than their potential, far greater than"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3856.615,"endTime":3860.115,"body":"where they came from, far more than they expected. When"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3860.115,"endTime":3864.275,"body":"encouraged and being fed towards what is ultimately good,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3865.016,"endTime":3867.755,"body":"you know, the beautiful, the true. You know, if you"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3867.755,"endTime":3869.335,"body":"continually feed people"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3870.096,"endTime":3873.795,"body":"the good, the beautiful, and the true, you, one develops better"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3873.795,"endTime":3877.315,"body":"taste. When you have better taste, you become more demanding"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3877.315,"endTime":3879.856,"body":"of what things should be versus the way they are."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3880.536,"endTime":3884.235,"body":"That, to me, is the best way to change the world, because as"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3884.235,"endTime":3888.436,"body":"Christians and God, as He's modeled for us, it's about being"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3888.436,"endTime":3888.876,"body":"generous."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3889.496,"endTime":3892.996,"body":"We have something- ... The world does not have. The more we give"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3892.996,"endTime":3897.295,"body":"it freely, lovingly, openly, with a critical mind to show"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3897.295,"endTime":3900.916,"body":"people how to reach for Steak Diane instead of McNuggets, we"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3900.916,"endTime":3901.275,"body":"will"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3902.376,"endTime":3904.596,"body":"tremendously impact people for the better. And so"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3905.496,"endTime":3906.775,"body":"that's kind of where I"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3907.516,"endTime":3910.896,"body":"try to take AI. I try to take AI in a, in a direction that is"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3910.896,"endTime":3914.956,"body":"irrefutably superior, good, pleasing, beneficial to the"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3914.956,"endTime":3919.315,"body":"world. And when we do that, we can change the conversation."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3919.315,"endTime":3920.675,"body":"I love that because it hints back to what"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3920.675,"endTime":3923.036,"body":"you were saying earlier, Michael, about we approach this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3923.036,"endTime":3923.976,"body":"holistically."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3923.976,"endTime":3924.815,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3924.815,"endTime":3926.456,"body":"So one, it's like, what's the worldview"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3926.456,"endTime":3929.686,"body":"behind AI? Well, it's actually really just math. I actually"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3929.686,"endTime":3931.306,"body":"hadn't even really thought about that-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3931.306,"endTime":3931.306,"body":"[chuckles] Sorry."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3931.306,"endTime":3932.936,"body":"... But you're right. It's just an algorithm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3932.936,"endTime":3934.905,"body":"Like, no, that was, like, helpful to me-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3934.905,"endTime":3934.905,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3934.905,"endTime":3936.195,"body":"... Because I don't understand how a lot of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3936.195,"endTime":3937.715,"body":"that stuff works."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3937.715,"endTime":3938.135,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3938.135,"endTime":3940.536,"body":"But you're also like- how do we create? Which is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3940.536,"endTime":3941.795,"body":"a biblical idea."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3941.795,"endTime":3942.275,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3942.275,"endTime":3943.795,"body":"How do we give, and how do we use this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3943.795,"endTime":3946.876,"body":"technology to love our neighbors? That's thinking"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3946.876,"endTime":3950.985,"body":"biblically about this tool that we have, so I love it. What"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3950.985,"endTime":3953.076,"body":"do you think it mean-- When we think about business, what would"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3953.076,"endTime":3955.436,"body":"it mean to think biblically about the intersection of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3955.436,"endTime":3956.365,"body":"business and AI?"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3959.615,"endTime":3962.235,"body":"Boy, there are so many places to start. I"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3962.235,"endTime":3965.376,"body":"think, well, first of all, I know this guy pretty well. I"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3965.376,"endTime":3967.045,"body":"want to argue about friction in a bit. [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":3967.045,"endTime":3967.166,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3967.166,"endTime":3967.576,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3967.576,"endTime":3969.715,"body":"I know him pretty well, and I know he isn't"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3969.715,"endTime":3973.376,"body":"just picking on a verse, right? So, you know, AI and verse of"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3973.376,"endTime":3976.775,"body":"the day, it sounds like a really great starting place."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3977.715,"endTime":3979.996,"body":"And I think as Christian leaders, you know, we need to"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3979.996,"endTime":3984.155,"body":"realize, like, this isn't dystopia, and this isn't utopia."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3984.155,"endTime":3986.306,"body":"Like, there's something in between those two things."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3986.306,"endTime":3986.306,"body":"That's good."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3987.155,"endTime":3990.536,"body":"It's, it's not either/or, and, you know, we're"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3990.536,"endTime":3994.275,"body":"image-bearers, and we're called, you know, to steward over the"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3994.275,"endTime":3994.635,"body":"Earth-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3994.635,"endTime":3994.675,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3994.675,"endTime":3997.056,"body":"... As relational, creative, moral"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":3997.056,"endTime":4001.715,"body":"beings. So as I think about this as a Christian business leader,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4001.715,"endTime":4004.436,"body":"and I think about, like, what is our responsibility? Our"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4004.436,"endTime":4008.396,"body":"responsibility- ... Is to engage it, to understand it, to"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4008.396,"endTime":4008.996,"body":"better,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4009.755,"endTime":4013.335,"body":"know what it does and what it can't do, and to- ... Steward"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4013.335,"endTime":4016.436,"body":"over top the math, right? I mean, at the end of the day- ..."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4016.436,"endTime":4020.795,"body":"It's as simple as we've got a biblical obligation, in my"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4020.795,"endTime":4023.936,"body":"opinion, to lean in, not my opinion- ... Scripturally, to"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4023.936,"endTime":4024.755,"body":"lean in-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4024.755,"endTime":4025.096,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4025.096,"endTime":4027.235,"body":"... To understand this and to steward"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4027.235,"endTime":4031.356,"body":"over it.... So that it doesn't drift astray, which it,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4031.356,"endTime":4035.096,"body":"it will, if we don't. And, you know, we've, we've seen this"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4035.096,"endTime":4038.365,"body":"before. You know, we call it social media, and we buried our"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4038.365,"endTime":4041.476,"body":"head in the sand. We were asleep at the wheel, and it's generated"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4041.476,"endTime":4043.376,"body":"the loneliest generation on planet Earth."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4043.376,"endTime":4044.115,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4044.735,"endTime":4046.576,"body":"I don't want to repeat that pattern. So"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4047.096,"endTime":4051.096,"body":"as a business Christian leader, you know, I want to lean in, I"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4051.096,"endTime":4054.536,"body":"want to understand it, I want to use it, I want to engage it, and"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4054.536,"endTime":4057.956,"body":"I want to better understand it so that I can shape its human"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4057.956,"endTime":4060.875,"body":"value at the end of the day. And I-- you know, so that would be"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4060.875,"endTime":4063.715,"body":"the advice I would give is, you know, don't bury your head in"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4063.715,"endTime":4068.146,"body":"the sand ever again. Use it for all the positive reasons- ..."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4068.146,"endTime":4069.815,"body":"And then shepherd over it"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4070.675,"endTime":4073.576,"body":"to limit all the negative consequences. You know,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4073.576,"endTime":4074.826,"body":"obviously, not all-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4074.826,"endTime":4074.835,"body":"Of course"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4074.835,"endTime":4076.666,"body":"... But to do our best-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4076.666,"endTime":4076.666,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4076.666,"endTime":4079.096,"body":"... To limit the consequences and unintended"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4079.096,"endTime":4079.856,"body":"consequences."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4079.856,"endTime":4080.876,"body":"Moretua, I'm going to come to you in a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4080.876,"endTime":4084.896,"body":"second, but without opening up a big debate, just highlight for"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4084.896,"endTime":4087.536,"body":"us where is the difference between the two of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4087.536,"endTime":4091.396,"body":"you over friction? Just so I understand what's going on."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4091.396,"endTime":4092.266,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4092.266,"endTime":4092.275,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4092.275,"endTime":4094.195,"body":"Well, first of all, Johan and I have lots of"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4094.195,"endTime":4094.795,"body":"debates."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4094.795,"endTime":4095.146,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4095.146,"endTime":4095.695,"body":"So it's, it's healthy."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4095.695,"endTime":4096.676,"body":"Which we have here-"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4096.676,"endTime":4096.985,"body":"It's, it's healthy"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4096.985,"endTime":4098.176,"body":"... All the time. That's good."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4098.176,"endTime":4099.225,"body":"Healthy tension. Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4099.225,"endTime":4100.166,"body":"And it's super constructive."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4100.166,"endTime":4100.176,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4100.176,"endTime":4102.246,"body":"And I'm the entrepreneur, I'm ready to run."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4102.246,"endTime":4102.256,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4102.256,"endTime":4104.036,"body":"Like, I'm ready to go implement this stuff. And"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4104.036,"endTime":4107.076,"body":"Johan reminded me, \"But there's this thing called security-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4107.076,"endTime":4107.365,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4107.365,"endTime":4107.365,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4107.365,"endTime":4108.876,"body":"... And, you know, occasionally, we need to"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4108.876,"endTime":4112.136,"body":"think about data and privacy, and- ... Which of course, I'm"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4112.136,"endTime":4112.815,"body":"going to think about."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4112.815,"endTime":4112.935,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4112.935,"endTime":4116.296,"body":"But, you know, so that's friction, right?"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4116.296,"endTime":4118.695,"body":"And, and there's certainly friction to think about, you"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4118.695,"endTime":4122.216,"body":"know, the cognitive process, and if we make it too easy on our"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4122.216,"endTime":4126.895,"body":"students, they come out of this environment unprepared. But I"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4126.895,"endTime":4130.155,"body":"do believe there's a difference between healthy and unhealthy"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4130.155,"endTime":4131.756,"body":"friction. Healthy friction-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4131.756,"endTime":4132.195,"body":"Gotcha"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4132.195,"endTime":4134.095,"body":"... Is challenging our students and"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4134.095,"endTime":4137.395,"body":"ourselves to think about, you know, doing this and doing this"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4137.395,"endTime":4140.416,"body":"well, and learning in the process, so we have high"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4140.416,"endTime":4143.695,"body":"judgment when we need it, when we're in these corner cases,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4143.695,"endTime":4145.376,"body":"these edge cases."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4146.136,"endTime":4150.536,"body":"But the unhealthy friction, is the muck, the stuff that"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4150.536,"endTime":4152.676,"body":"just gets in our way- ... The stuff that is actually"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4152.676,"endTime":4156.314,"body":"dehumanizing. So, so I separate those two. Um-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4156.314,"endTime":4156.645,"body":"That makes sense"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4156.645,"endTime":4158.536,"body":"... And I'm sure we'll have another coffee"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4158.536,"endTime":4159.176,"body":"conversation-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4159.176,"endTime":4159.536,"body":"I love it"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4159.536,"endTime":4160.676,"body":"... At some future point. But-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4160.676,"endTime":4162.076,"body":"And that's actually to make-- to your point"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4162.076,"endTime":4164.435,"body":"earlier, there's an instrumental good"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4165.015,"endTime":4166.155,"body":"about that friction."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4166.155,"endTime":4166.515,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4166.515,"endTime":4166.735,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4166.735,"endTime":4170.475,"body":"To disagree well, to discuss, to debate."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4170.475,"endTime":4173.216,"body":"That's a part of how you learn, and I remember with smartphones,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4173.216,"endTime":4175.036,"body":"the moment we had Google, people would debate something, they're"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4175.036,"endTime":4176.296,"body":"like- \"Well, let me just look it up.\""},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4176.296,"endTime":4176.956,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4176.956,"endTime":4179.405,"body":"And I was like- \"No, let's debate it.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4179.405,"endTime":4179.405,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4179.405,"endTime":4179.405,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4179.405,"endTime":4181.655,"body":"\"Let's, let's try to see if we can remember"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4181.655,"endTime":4185.996,"body":"this.\" That's something that's lost, so I appreciate that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4185.996,"endTime":4186.555,"body":"dynamic."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4187.296,"endTime":4189.895,"body":"That's awesome. What would you say, as philosopher apologist,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4189.895,"endTime":4192.076,"body":"it means to think biblically about AI?"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4193.115,"endTime":4195.275,"body":"I think, first of all, to have a very clear"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4195.275,"endTime":4199.796,"body":"conception of, the fact that these are tools. Any tool, by"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4199.796,"endTime":4201.595,"body":"definition, could be useful"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4202.796,"endTime":4204.195,"body":"and could be a very-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4204.195,"endTime":4204.206,"body":"Destructive"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4204.206,"endTime":4207.176,"body":"... Dangerous, destructive stuff in your hands."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4207.176,"endTime":4210.935,"body":"So we all have tools. I mean, there are knives in our kitchen,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4210.935,"endTime":4211.355,"body":"you know,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4211.935,"endTime":4215.956,"body":"table, and then we can kill someone with it. So we can cut"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4215.956,"endTime":4219.176,"body":"up food and, you know, feed our families and so on. I think we"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4219.176,"endTime":4222.536,"body":"need to have that clear, conception of, you know,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4222.536,"endTime":4225.996,"body":"technology in our mind first, and then I think about,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4226.836,"endTime":4230.916,"body":"using technology, biblically as really kind of to connect it to"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4230.916,"endTime":4232.576,"body":"our own calling. Okay?"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4233.105,"endTime":4236.296,"body":"And I really share what both of you have said is incredibly"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4236.296,"endTime":4238.305,"body":"helpful, and I think we are in total sync."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4239.076,"endTime":4242.636,"body":"Incredibly important approach. Like, we're cautious, we're not"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4242.636,"endTime":4245.275,"body":"also, like, megaphoning this hands-off approach."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4245.275,"endTime":4245.416,"body":"No."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4245.416,"endTime":4247.716,"body":"We're not saying hands off. We're not also"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4247.716,"endTime":4250.935,"body":"saying, \"This is our redeemer- ... Let's go and grab it.\" I"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4250.935,"endTime":4255.645,"body":"think that discernment is what I think is, biblically kind of,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4256.775,"endTime":4259.555,"body":"implementing- ... And using these technologies to advance"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4259.555,"endTime":4260.515,"body":"the cause of the gospel"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4261.155,"endTime":4264.176,"body":"and help people solve problems, and so on. And there are"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4264.176,"endTime":4267.296,"body":"unintended consequences. Let's say, self-discovery,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4267.296,"endTime":4272.536,"body":"self-identity is being lost. If I don't do something, like if I"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4272.536,"endTime":4274.895,"body":"literally don't put my heart into something-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4274.895,"endTime":4275.155,"body":"Contemplation"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4275.155,"endTime":4278.305,"body":"... If I am trying to cut corners, and then,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4278.305,"endTime":4282.555,"body":"\"AI, think for me. Make my bed, cook for me,\" and I open my"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4282.555,"endTime":4283.256,"body":"refrigerator-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4283.256,"endTime":4283.286,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4283.286,"endTime":4285.216,"body":"... \"What do I need to eat?\" And we're"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4285.216,"endTime":4288.135,"body":"literally turning ourselves into what this.... What's-- There is"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4288.135,"endTime":4290.055,"body":"a movie, that's what the,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4291.235,"endTime":4291.676,"body":"Disney-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4291.676,"endTime":4291.685,"body":"I-"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4291.685,"endTime":4292.195,"body":"... Disneyland movie where-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4292.195,"endTime":4294.775,"body":"I don't know, but AI making my bed, I think I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4294.775,"endTime":4296.286,"body":"would be okay with that one. [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4296.286,"endTime":4296.296,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4296.296,"endTime":4298.376,"body":"Well, I mean, you know, that's a kind of-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4298.376,"endTime":4298.926,"body":"I know your point. I understand"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4298.926,"endTime":4300.796,"body":"... Without resourcing everything."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4300.796,"endTime":4301.155,"body":"Mm-hmm. Right."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4301.155,"endTime":4304.195,"body":"The very notion of literally the meaning of life"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4304.195,"endTime":4306.595,"body":"is predicated- ... Upon enjoying-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4306.595,"endTime":4306.605,"body":"Yes"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4306.605,"endTime":4308.036,"body":"... Your daily routines."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4308.036,"endTime":4308.636,"body":"Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4308.636,"endTime":4311.235,"body":"That's what it means. If I hand over everything"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4311.235,"endTime":4312.155,"body":"to these tools, then"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4313.145,"endTime":4316.235,"body":"what am I supposed to do with the, with the, with the time"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4316.235,"endTime":4320.336,"body":"that's in my hand? Like, I come to job, and I strike"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4320.336,"endTime":4323.296,"body":"conversation with my colleagues, and I make fun of my students"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4323.296,"endTime":4326.355,"body":"and make... Like, this is what it means."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4327.076,"endTime":4330.765,"body":"And we're really losing sight of how the technology is"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4330.765,"endTime":4333.905,"body":"supposed to help us and how it's not supposed to help us. That"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4333.905,"endTime":4336.645,"body":"discernment is literally what I think is-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4336.645,"endTime":4336.645,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4336.645,"endTime":4339.296,"body":"... Biblically being kind of sensitive,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4341.195,"endTime":4344.395,"body":"as to how we are supposed to deal and engage with this"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4344.395,"endTime":4344.855,"body":"technology."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4344.855,"endTime":4346.216,"body":"I'm going to ask you a question. You can say,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4346.216,"endTime":4349.716,"body":"yes, no, or more complicated. I want your quick take on this."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4349.716,"endTime":4353.355,"body":"You mentioned a knife, which can be used to stab somebody or for"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4353.355,"endTime":4356.655,"body":"surgery, which is good. So a knife is morally neutral. It's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4356.655,"endTime":4360.416,"body":"how we use it. Is AI morally neutral?"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4360.416,"endTime":4361.336,"body":"Absolutely not."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4361.336,"endTime":4362.765,"body":"No, [chuckles] not even close. [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4362.765,"endTime":4364.956,"body":"It's entirely,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4366.576,"endTime":4368.735,"body":"rooted in worldview."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4368.735,"endTime":4368.796,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4368.796,"endTime":4371.796,"body":"So we might, we might think these companies are"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4371.796,"endTime":4372.775,"body":"trying to help us."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4372.775,"endTime":4372.796,"body":"[clears throat]"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4372.796,"endTime":4375.716,"body":"Look, they are getting across a very subtle"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4375.716,"endTime":4379.735,"body":"message to all of us, such as, you are not better than the"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4379.735,"endTime":4383.076,"body":"tools. There are many people who are arguing that- ..."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4383.076,"endTime":4385.275,"body":"You literally are not better than the tool. So you're not"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4385.275,"endTime":4388.296,"body":"only biological machine, you're less than a biological machine."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4388.296,"endTime":4390.676,"body":"That the whole point of transhumanism is just to prove"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4390.676,"endTime":4393.927,"body":"that point.... And digital immortality, extracting your"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4393.927,"endTime":4396.608,"body":"mind and uploading it on gadgets, and you won't die, you"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4396.608,"endTime":4400.728,"body":"won't get sick, and so on. What would that do to our conception"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4400.728,"endTime":4404.247,"body":"of the body of Christ and the centrality of the body"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4404.927,"endTime":4408.078,"body":"that you have in resurrection? We're looking forward to that."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4408.667,"endTime":4411.927,"body":"Chatbots, we're using chatbots. Churches are using chatbot and"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4411.927,"endTime":4415.648,"body":"so on. Why don't a human being responds to the questions that"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4415.648,"endTime":4419.328,"body":"the members of congregations have, as opposed to why are you"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4419.328,"endTime":4423.807,"body":"directing them there? So there are so many subtle things that"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4423.807,"endTime":4426.228,"body":"we might- ... Lose sight of. They might really be"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4426.228,"endTime":4429.268,"body":"inconsistent and incompatible with what we believe from a"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4429.268,"endTime":4432.408,"body":"scriptural standpoint. I think that careful discernment is"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4432.408,"endTime":4433.467,"body":"really important."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4433.467,"endTime":4435.528,"body":"This could be a whole follow-up conversation,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4435.528,"endTime":4437.528,"body":"and I'm gonna have to get your quick take on this 'cause"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4437.528,"endTime":4438.828,"body":"you reacted to this."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4438.828,"endTime":4439.347,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4439.347,"endTime":4442.347,"body":"Like, why-- if AI is not morally neutral-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4442.347,"endTime":4446.328,"body":"... Then how and when can we use a tool that affects us"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4447.028,"endTime":4450.557,"body":"morally and our worldview? We can't answer that now, but even"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4450.557,"endTime":4454.587,"body":"thinking about that should shape the way we approach tools. But"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4454.587,"endTime":4458.537,"body":"you reacted to my question. Tell me what was in your mind."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4458.537,"endTime":4461.207,"body":"Yeah. The reason I believe, like, generative AI"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4461.207,"endTime":4464.448,"body":"tools are not morally neutral is because it depends on how,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4464.448,"endTime":4468.188,"body":"what... If it were neutral, you would have a perfect balance"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4468.188,"endTime":4471.528,"body":"mathematically and statistically and numerically in terms of"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4472.108,"endTime":4474.257,"body":"its opinions and how,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4474.847,"endTime":4476.667,"body":"AI is trained and fed."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4479.148,"endTime":4483.448,"body":"Training and feeding comes down to what you select to train and"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4483.448,"endTime":4484.028,"body":"feed."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4484.028,"endTime":4484.528,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4484.528,"endTime":4488.207,"body":"And so in AI, when I talk about it being math, it's"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4488.207,"endTime":4494.307,"body":"because AI is essentially massive tables with words and"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4494.307,"endTime":4497.627,"body":"concepts that have a numerical weight attached to them in terms"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4497.627,"endTime":4502.347,"body":"of a probability, and that comes down to frequency, how much, how"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4502.347,"endTime":4505.927,"body":"often, and how something is tuned to, say,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4506.707,"endTime":4509.847,"body":"to respond back with positive, negative, or something in the"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4509.847,"endTime":4513.988,"body":"middle. It goes back to train- [exhales] The scripture that"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4513.988,"endTime":4515.787,"body":"comes to my mind is how you raise up a child."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4516.707,"endTime":4520.768,"body":"And so in the Garden of Eden, in Genesis, we knew only good. As"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4520.768,"endTime":4525.988,"body":"human beings, we knew only good. When Satan deceived us, we only"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4525.988,"endTime":4530.307,"body":"gained net bad. 'Cause if you only knew good, and then you"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4530.307,"endTime":4533.007,"body":"were getting taught the knowledge of good and evil,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4533.007,"endTime":4537.448,"body":"you-- and if you, from a, absolute math perspective, only"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4537.448,"endTime":4540.368,"body":"knew good, the, then the only net gain you got when you"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4540.368,"endTime":4544.828,"body":"learned good and evil was you only learned evil. And so when"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4544.828,"endTime":4550.127,"body":"that works out mathematically now, how you train an AI, for"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4550.127,"endTime":4550.596,"body":"example,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4551.148,"endTime":4553.847,"body":"usual first step is you completely absorb everything"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4553.847,"endTime":4557.007,"body":"inside of Wikipedia, right? That's a, that's a usual first"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4557.007,"endTime":4559.228,"body":"step in terms of training- ... A large language model. You need"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4559.228,"endTime":4562.467,"body":"to understand- ... Syntax, language, friction, fix, sorry,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4562.467,"endTime":4565.908,"body":"syntax, language, [lips smack] sequence, diction, et cetera,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4565.908,"endTime":4567.847,"body":"semantics, and syntax, right?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4567.847,"endTime":4567.868,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4567.868,"endTime":4571.427,"body":"When that happens, it's accumulating all of this"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4571.427,"endTime":4574.967,"body":"data to then start making weights, to be able to say"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4574.967,"endTime":4577.108,"body":"something is more important, less important, higher priority,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4577.108,"endTime":4579.787,"body":"lower priority. That's, again, this is now getting to the"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4579.787,"endTime":4583.807,"body":"rudimentary pieces of it. But what if you're now only feeding"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4583.807,"endTime":4588.228,"body":"it poetry of violence? What if it now you're only feeding it-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4588.747,"endTime":4591.368,"body":"... You know, the depositions from The Hague"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4592.068,"endTime":4593.007,"body":"during, you know,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4593.667,"endTime":4597.608,"body":"sexual violence wrought upon- ... Women in unarmed conflict,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4597.608,"endTime":4600.568,"body":"then it knows only those things you taught it."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4601.347,"endTime":4604.967,"body":"Flip side. Now, let's say you taught an AI, starting with the"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4604.967,"endTime":4611.828,"body":"Bible, Greek, Hebrew, Koine. Now, you teach it Augustine,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4611.828,"endTime":4616.347,"body":"Calvin. That AI is going to know things. It's going to be able to"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4616.347,"endTime":4619.507,"body":"understand, respond, and analyze things innately from a"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4619.507,"endTime":4620.868,"body":"perspective of what is good-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4621.448,"endTime":4621.967,"body":"... Versus-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4621.967,"endTime":4622.537,"body":"Yep"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4622.537,"endTime":4624.768,"body":"... Poetry of violence, depositions,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4625.927,"endTime":4631.268,"body":"pornography. What you train in AI defends how it operates, and"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4631.268,"endTime":4635.667,"body":"so that question, \"Is AI morally neutral?\" No. [chuckles] These"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4635.667,"endTime":4639.287,"body":"were built on high-volume, high-resource languages, which"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4639.287,"endTime":4643.228,"body":"are predominantly English, Wikipedia, then books, then"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4643.228,"endTime":4646.688,"body":"what's available on the English, predominantly Western English"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4646.688,"endTime":4648.988,"body":"Internet, because the US internet presence- ... Is"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4648.988,"endTime":4651.028,"body":"considerably larger than that of the UK"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4651.568,"endTime":4655.807,"body":"because we invented the Internet here. And so there is a"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4655.807,"endTime":4658.387,"body":"non-random, proportional difference. There is a map in"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4658.387,"endTime":4662.148,"body":"terms of the higher frequency of what has been fed these tools."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4662.148,"endTime":4662.627,"body":"And so"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4663.467,"endTime":4666.148,"body":"we cannot be in a place where AI is morally neutral because the"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4666.148,"endTime":4669.868,"body":"rest of the world doesn't have the digital maturity that the US"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4669.868,"endTime":4671.247,"body":"has, much less"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4672.148,"endTime":4675.887,"body":"English-speaking predominant nations. Now, is the next"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4675.887,"endTime":4676.887,"body":"version of the Internet"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4677.408,"endTime":4679.887,"body":"predominantly gonna be potentially more non-English?"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4679.887,"endTime":4683.387,"body":"Yes, because there's a billion more people in the PRC- ... A"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4683.387,"endTime":4687.167,"body":"billion more people in India, with a lot more languages than"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4687.167,"endTime":4689.908,"body":"we have in the US, but lower probability and lower"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4689.908,"endTime":4693.787,"body":"propensity, and lower abundance, if you will. And so the next"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4693.787,"endTime":4698.287,"body":"versions of the Internet will be predominantly non-English based."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4698.287,"endTime":4700.167,"body":"And so when we disobey"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4701.047,"endTime":4702.078,"body":"God's command"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4702.887,"endTime":4705.368,"body":"to multiply, go forth and multiply,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4705.967,"endTime":4709.368,"body":"when we have fewer families, then fewer people of that"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4709.368,"endTime":4713.328,"body":"cognate language are present. So in one sense- ... If you were"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4713.328,"endTime":4716.448,"body":"just to think of it from an arms race perspective, the people who"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4716.448,"endTime":4721.148,"body":"have greater, population, who produce more in digital format,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4721.148,"endTime":4724.547,"body":"in their literacy, in their content, in their media, that"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4724.547,"endTime":4728.728,"body":"could, c- dramatically shift the responses of an AI."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4729.307,"endTime":4730.747,"body":"Could, could."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":4730.747,"endTime":4731.587,"body":"Could is key."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4731.587,"endTime":4733.087,"body":"But this is the stuff I think about late at"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4733.087,"endTime":4733.728,"body":"night. [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4733.728,"endTime":4733.837,"body":"But,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4734.587,"endTime":4738.307,"body":"but, and not... A- it gets worse than that, actually, right?"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4738.307,"endTime":4738.328,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4738.328,"endTime":4741.368,"body":"Because not only were they trained on biased data"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4741.368,"endTime":4742.007,"body":"sets-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4742.007,"endTime":4742.207,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4742.207,"endTime":4744.613,"body":"... From a morality standpoint, but-..."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4744.613,"endTime":4749.923,"body":"That bias is amplified as more people with a diff- you know, a"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4749.923,"endTime":4752.623,"body":"bias that may be counter to our worldview-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4752.623,"endTime":4752.774,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4752.774,"endTime":4754.484,"body":"-uh, are retrained in it."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4754.484,"endTime":4755.104,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4755.104,"endTime":4756.323,"body":"So, so there's something called bias"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4756.323,"endTime":4757.163,"body":"amplification."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4757.163,"endTime":4757.203,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4757.203,"endTime":4759.684,"body":"So not only is it already biased based on the"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4759.684,"endTime":4763.703,"body":"training sets, but that it's perpetuated over time. So- ..."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4763.703,"endTime":4766.884,"body":"So I think it's, it's dangerous from the start, and it contin-"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4766.884,"endTime":4770.083,"body":"you know, engaging more... And again, I keep saying that's why"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4770.083,"endTime":4771.804,"body":"we as believers need to engage-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4771.804,"endTime":4771.814,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4771.814,"endTime":4774.024,"body":"... Because we have a counter worldview-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4774.024,"endTime":4774.453,"body":"Yes"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4774.453,"endTime":4777.703,"body":"-that is more necessary than ever, in the"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":4777.703,"endTime":4778.444,"body":"world."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4778.444,"endTime":4779.524,"body":"Can I add something?"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4779.524,"endTime":4779.663,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4779.663,"endTime":4781.703,"body":"I think you both have raised a very important"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4781.703,"endTime":4784.423,"body":"point, especially when you talked about, computers being"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4784.423,"endTime":4787.203,"body":"like number-crunching tools [chuckles] and nothing else. I"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4787.203,"endTime":4789.304,"body":"think that speaks volumes because there's a huge"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4789.304,"endTime":4792.484,"body":"confusion. Let's say, computers can have their own free will,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4792.484,"endTime":4795.083,"body":"and computers can have consciousness, blah. It"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4795.083,"endTime":4797.743,"body":"literally shatters that argument, okay? Here is a"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4797.743,"endTime":4802.024,"body":"predetermined tool. You set the tone already from the get-go,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4802.024,"endTime":4804.684,"body":"how the tool is supposed to operate, and"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4805.243,"endTime":4808.024,"body":"the general public doesn't really know that. \"Okay. Oh,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4808.024,"endTime":4810.844,"body":"yeah, ChatGPT is conversing with me like a"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4811.423,"endTime":4812.083,"body":"mic.\""},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4812.083,"endTime":4812.344,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4812.344,"endTime":4814.904,"body":"\"Oh, it must be s- there must be some agent in"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4814.904,"endTime":4818.463,"body":"there,\" so, and so on. People are falling in love these days,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4818.463,"endTime":4819.304,"body":"romantically."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4819.304,"endTime":4820.644,"body":"Well, that's shocking ignorance."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4820.644,"endTime":4820.904,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4820.904,"endTime":4821.043,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4821.043,"endTime":4823.054,"body":"Shocking ignorance. But when you-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4823.054,"endTime":4823.054,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4823.054,"endTime":4825.703,"body":"... When you lift the hood, it's not that"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4825.703,"endTime":4829.144,"body":"surprising. It, yeah, the sophistication is surprising,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4829.144,"endTime":4831.823,"body":"but that's a reflection of your mind. Like, that's a reflection"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4831.823,"endTime":4834.283,"body":"of how- ... Human beings can go, how far they can go"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4834.804,"endTime":4837.764,"body":"in thinking and the sophistication that they bring"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4837.764,"endTime":4840.113,"body":"into the, to the table. So I think"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4841.243,"endTime":4843.823,"body":"what you just said is a very good response"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4844.423,"endTime":4848.184,"body":"to this hallucinatory comments that people are making. \"Oh,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4848.184,"endTime":4851.344,"body":"emotions can be uploaded. First-person data can be"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4851.344,"endTime":4854.014,"body":"absolutely proved by AI,\" and so on."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4854.014,"endTime":4854.304,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4854.304,"endTime":4856.684,"body":"There's literally nothing there. There's nothing"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4856.684,"endTime":4859.884,"body":"there. People should re- should really know that. And computers"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4859.884,"endTime":4860.904,"body":"cannot generate a,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4861.463,"endTime":4864.463,"body":"not a single thought of their own because that's not an"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4864.463,"endTime":4864.814,"body":"agent."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4865.404,"endTime":4868.743,"body":"What you haven't put there is not going to come out of that,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4868.743,"endTime":4871.503,"body":"and I think that's a very good point. That's a"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4871.503,"endTime":4875.143,"body":"mathematics-based number-crunching tool and"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4875.143,"endTime":4875.634,"body":"nothing else."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4876.503,"endTime":4879.484,"body":"Well said. I like that. Last question is, I'm"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4879.484,"endTime":4882.604,"body":"curious because my son is in business, and my daughter's"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4882.604,"endTime":4885.344,"body":"doing nursing, which obviously intersects with science- ... And"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4885.344,"endTime":4886.043,"body":"your colleague."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4887.224,"endTime":4890.264,"body":"I want to know, what is, what is Biola and/or Talbot doing"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4890.264,"endTime":4891.083,"body":"uniquely"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4891.783,"endTime":4896.703,"body":"to lead the way as it comes to AI? What are we doing? Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4896.703,"endTime":4899.884,"body":"I'll speak from Biola. [clears throat] I guess"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4901.743,"endTime":4905.304,"body":"we are building our own AI. That's the first bit, and"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4905.304,"endTime":4907.623,"body":"we are taking the approach that I described. You know, what"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4907.623,"endTime":4908.984,"body":"happens when you build an AI"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4909.804,"endTime":4910.844,"body":"from the ground up,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4911.564,"endTime":4914.304,"body":"from a completely biblical perspective that is ultimately"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4914.304,"endTime":4916.944,"body":"God-honoring, edifying to the human? And,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4917.844,"endTime":4918.104,"body":"because"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4918.884,"endTime":4919.304,"body":"the Bible"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4920.083,"endTime":4922.384,"body":"and all of the commentaries, analysis is the most"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4922.384,"endTime":4924.463,"body":"sophisticated and the most"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4924.984,"endTime":4927.043,"body":"infinitely sophisticated,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4927.984,"endTime":4929.944,"body":"written piece on the planet."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":4929.944,"endTime":4930.024,"body":"Amen."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4930.024,"endTime":4930.203,"body":"And"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4931.203,"endTime":4934.363,"body":"the more you delve into the scripture, the more the"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4934.363,"endTime":4937.944,"body":"sophistication starts revealing itself. It is... That is"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4937.944,"endTime":4940.423,"body":"infinite because it was inspired by God. So, you know,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4940.423,"endTime":4942.503,"body":"mathematically, when you take an image, and you do a projection"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4942.503,"endTime":4945.404,"body":"from something that is infinite to then another surface, you"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4945.404,"endTime":4949.283,"body":"imbue some of that, and so there is a, an unbelievable richness"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4949.283,"endTime":4950.104,"body":"there. So,"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4951.064,"endTime":4954.243,"body":"I'm very excited in this day and age of creating AIs that are"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4954.243,"endTime":4956.663,"body":"biblically informed and, can be"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4957.283,"endTime":4957.863,"body":"astonishing"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4958.423,"endTime":4961.923,"body":"in the limitless, expansion there. So that's one. The"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4961.923,"endTime":4964.684,"body":"other is, on a practical note, because we're called"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4965.724,"endTime":4968.434,"body":"to go out into the world, we're called- ... To love one another."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4968.434,"endTime":4970.984,"body":"And so that... So the first bit I was talking about is kind of"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4970.984,"endTime":4972.323,"body":"my expression and how I"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4973.703,"endTime":4976.503,"body":"try to live out, loving the Lord, my God, with all my heart"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4976.503,"endTime":4979.064,"body":"and mind, soul, and strength. The, the second part now, on the"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4979.064,"endTime":4980.344,"body":"horizontal axis, is"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4981.583,"endTime":4982.884,"body":"how do we use AI to"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4984.663,"endTime":4987.904,"body":"uplift and serve and love- ... The widow, the orphan, the"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4987.904,"endTime":4990.344,"body":"sojourner, the infirmed, essentially the definition of"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4990.344,"endTime":4991.993,"body":"biblical justice. And so that is why"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4992.604,"endTime":4996.444,"body":"I am really focused on how to build AIs for robotics, for"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":4997.064,"endTime":4999.904,"body":"serving, those who are infirmed. That is a"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":5001.384,"endTime":5004.962,"body":"really challenging area, but I find a calling towards it"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":5004.962,"endTime":5007.224,"body":"because I can't think of a better way of serving humanity."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":5008.304,"endTime":5008.804,"body":"I love it."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5008.804,"endTime":5008.844,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":5008.844,"endTime":5012.323,"body":"Great. Great word. Tell us a little about business."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5012.323,"endTime":5013.583,"body":"Oh, we're doing a lot."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5014.224,"endTime":5017.884,"body":"I... You know, the way we think about this is engage- ... Won't"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5017.884,"endTime":5018.543,"body":"surprise you-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":5018.543,"endTime":5018.623,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5018.623,"endTime":5018.634,"body":"..."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5019.184,"endTime":5020.314,"body":"Educate, and elevate."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":5020.314,"endTime":5020.684,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5020.684,"endTime":5023.873,"body":"Elevate- ... Our thinking about how to use AI,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5024.524,"endTime":5025.363,"body":"righteously."},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":5025.363,"endTime":5025.684,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5025.684,"endTime":5028.844,"body":"So, so we've launched an AI lab, across"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5028.844,"endTime":5031.184,"body":"campus, so it's- ... Interdisciplinary, which is"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5031.184,"endTime":5034.283,"body":"really important because what it's doing is it's embedding the"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5034.283,"endTime":5037.484,"body":"thinking from across the university, and it's not just"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5037.484,"endTime":5040.564,"body":"technology or not just business driving the way. You know,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5040.564,"endTime":5042.564,"body":"we've... You know, we're think- we're thinking- ... About this"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5042.564,"endTime":5042.823,"body":"from"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5043.524,"endTime":5046.283,"body":"all the humanities perspect- we're thinking about it much"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5046.283,"endTime":5049.184,"body":"more broadly, and students are engaging. They're engaging in"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5049.184,"endTime":5051.944,"body":"dialogue. They're building. They're developing. They're..."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5051.944,"endTime":5054.703,"body":"I learn from the students. You know, every Monday morning-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":5054.703,"endTime":5054.833,"body":"It's incredible"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5054.833,"endTime":5057.224,"body":"... I get, like, a tutorial. So I don't have an"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5057.224,"endTime":5058.144,"body":"AI of the day-"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5058.144,"endTime":5058.154,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5058.154,"endTime":5059.104,"body":"-like Johan does-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":5059.104,"endTime":5059.394,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5059.394,"endTime":5059.554,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5059.554,"endTime":5062.963,"body":"... But I, but I have a 30-minute tutorial of,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5062.963,"endTime":5066.764,"body":"you know, \"Hey, how can you use n8n to automate your workflows?\""},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5066.764,"endTime":5070.003,"body":"And I get, like, this, you know, reverse teaching from the"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5070.003,"endTime":5073.144,"body":"students. But, but we're holding them accountable for thinking"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5073.144,"endTime":5076.404,"body":"about this differently. And, you know, the way I like to describe"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5076.404,"endTime":5080.003,"body":"it is, you know, our tech stack rests on the foundation of"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5080.003,"endTime":5084.043,"body":"ethics. And our tech stack starts with, you know,"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5084.564,"endTime":5088.724,"body":"\"Can AI do this?\" That's an easy question. Um- ... \"Should AI do"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5088.724,"endTime":5088.912,"body":"this?\""},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":5088.912,"endTime":5088.963,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5088.963,"endTime":5090.623,"body":"That's a much harder question, and if you"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5090.623,"endTime":5094.003,"body":"don't have a worldview, you're not biblically grounded, and you"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5094.003,"endTime":5096.963,"body":"don't have a set of ethics that you're making that judgment"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5096.963,"endTime":5100.184,"body":"through. And then ultimately, if the answer to those two"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5100.184,"endTime":5102.283,"body":"questions are yes, how should it-"},{"speaker":"Yohan Lee","startTime":5102.283,"endTime":5102.533,"body":"Exactly"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5102.533,"endTime":5104.884,"body":"... So that we're doing it well? So, so"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5104.884,"endTime":5107.923,"body":"we're, we're engaging in that every single day. Every class"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5107.923,"endTime":5111.203,"body":"inside the business school is teaching AI, but it's teaching"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5111.203,"endTime":5115.14,"body":"ethics side by side with it. Um-... You know, we've got an AI"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5115.14,"endTime":5119.81,"body":"studio that we're designing, to partner with kingdom leaders-"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5119.81,"endTime":5124.18,"body":"-and to help, entrepreneurs, you know, locally to engage and"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5124.18,"endTime":5124.84,"body":"to be a bridge-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":5124.84,"endTime":5124.859,"body":"Great."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5124.859,"endTime":5127.079,"body":"-to the outer world, you know, and, you"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5127.079,"endTime":5130.239,"body":"know, sort of the version of Acts 1-8. Like, how do we take"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5130.239,"endTime":5133.449,"body":"this beyond Jerusalem- -and start to reach the-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":5133.449,"endTime":5133.449,"body":"Yes"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5133.449,"endTime":5135.899,"body":"... Outer parts of the world? So we're"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5135.899,"endTime":5138.859,"body":"partnering with ministries. We're helping... You know, we've"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5138.859,"endTime":5141.699,"body":"worked with Samaritan's Purse and Global Media Outreach to"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5141.699,"endTime":5143.418,"body":"help them build tools."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5143.979,"endTime":5145.97,"body":"So lots of things, but the-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":5145.97,"endTime":5145.97,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5145.97,"endTime":5148.619,"body":"... Short of it is, we're engaging very"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5148.619,"endTime":5152.399,"body":"actively, but we're doing it in a way that elevates students'"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5152.399,"endTime":5155.979,"body":"thinking, so that- ... They don't just, you know, leverage"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5155.979,"endTime":5160.6,"body":"AI and start to generate AI slop- ... As opposed to, you"},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5160.6,"endTime":5162.6,"body":"know, creating kingdom impact."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":5162.6,"endTime":5164.27,"body":"Love it. Great stuff. Meratu?"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5164.27,"endTime":5167.76,"body":"Yeah. So in apologetics and philosophy, we"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5167.76,"endTime":5171.159,"body":"take philosophical challenges that come out of disciplines"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5171.159,"endTime":5173.859,"body":"like artificial intelligence, and neuroscience,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5174.46,"endTime":5176.88,"body":"and transhumanism, and, you know, the currently, like,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5176.88,"endTime":5181.1,"body":"hot-button issues. We have to respond to those things from"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5181.1,"endTime":5185.079,"body":"biblical standpoint. It's our responsibility to, give"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5185.079,"endTime":5189.399,"body":"biblically grounded responses to people and help them to have a"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5189.399,"endTime":5192.84,"body":"biblically sound understanding of, you know, the discipline of"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5192.84,"endTime":5196.26,"body":"neuroscience, and so on. And currently, I'm teaching,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5197.079,"endTime":5199.38,"body":"the philosophy of neuroscience, and I taught- ... Philosophy of"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5199.38,"endTime":5202.359,"body":"AI last semester, and I'm going to teach philosophy of physics"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5202.359,"endTime":5202.899,"body":"next,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5203.56,"endTime":5207.279,"body":"you know, the spring semester. So all of these courses are"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5207.279,"endTime":5211.52,"body":"going to equip believers, and they are connected to AI,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5211.52,"endTime":5214.84,"body":"you know, to generative AI. And there are so many claims being"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5214.84,"endTime":5219.34,"body":"made that are contrary to what we think is the truth,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5219.96,"endTime":5223.819,"body":"and we have to lovingly, respectfully, bring these issues"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5223.819,"endTime":5224.42,"body":"to the table"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5224.979,"endTime":5228.659,"body":"and invite those people to have sound conversations with us, and"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5228.659,"endTime":5229.789,"body":"that's our responsibility."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":5229.789,"endTime":5229.8,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5229.8,"endTime":5231.819,"body":"And I think we're doing great in that. And as you"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5231.819,"endTime":5236.239,"body":"know, Sean, we are, you know, upgrading apologetics in so"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5236.239,"endTime":5237.05,"body":"many different ways, and-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":5237.05,"endTime":5237.05,"body":"We are"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5237.05,"endTime":5240.06,"body":"... Conversations are going on. And, my hope is in"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5240.06,"endTime":5244.159,"body":"the future to have equivalent apologetics lab- ... Just like"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5244.159,"endTime":5245.609,"body":"mimicking your style."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":5245.609,"endTime":5246.109,"body":"Let's do it. Let's do it."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5246.109,"endTime":5248.439,"body":"And that style is going to be in sync with what"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5248.439,"endTime":5252.38,"body":"you guys are doing. It's, it's a apologetics lab where we"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5252.38,"endTime":5255.38,"body":"literally wrestle with current, currently hot-button issues and"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5255.38,"endTime":5258.34,"body":"cutting-edge research that are coming out from different"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5258.34,"endTime":5260.96,"body":"disciplines. What kind of responses can we produce,"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5260.96,"endTime":5264.539,"body":"biblically grounded, just like Mike was saying? And I really"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5264.539,"endTime":5267.439,"body":"liked everything that you both have said. I mean, this is"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5267.439,"endTime":5273.539,"body":"just incredible. You rarely find such a balanced, understanding"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5273.539,"endTime":5277.88,"body":"about AI or technology in general. There are two extremes-"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5277.88,"endTime":5281.88,"body":"\"Go and grab, this is your Redeemer,\" or, \"Hands off!\" We"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5281.88,"endTime":5285.14,"body":"are somewhere in between. No, no. We grab a little"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5285.14,"endTime":5289.76,"body":"bit of from here. We also push back, and that's our uniqueness"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5289.76,"endTime":5293.319,"body":"here at Biola. And that is the most important position to be"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5293.319,"endTime":5297.529,"body":"in. And, so I think, I'm hoping and looking forward and praying"},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5297.529,"endTime":5299.56,"body":"to have apologetics lab."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":5299.56,"endTime":5301.52,"body":"Well, Meratu, we're thrilled to have you here."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":5301.52,"endTime":5305.06,"body":"When we were looking for new faculty, we knew who you were,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":5305.06,"endTime":5307.26,"body":"just knew the excellence that you would bring. But people ask"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":5307.26,"endTime":5310.0,"body":"me, \"What are the big questions coming up in apologetics, and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":5310.0,"endTime":5313.56,"body":"theology, and culture?\" It's always AI. So to have somebody"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":5313.56,"endTime":5315.6,"body":"publishing the way you are, speaking the way you are,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":5315.6,"endTime":5316.6,"body":"teaching the classes,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":5317.42,"endTime":5320.199,"body":"serves our students really well, and that's true for all of you."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":5320.199,"endTime":5322.939,"body":"Thanks for so much time. Thanks for your great work for the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":5322.939,"endTime":5326.239,"body":"kingdom, what you're doing here at Biola. If you're watching"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":5326.239,"endTime":5331.06,"body":"this, you can email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":5331.06,"endTime":5334.539,"body":"Questions from this episode, if there's other areas related to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":5334.539,"endTime":5337.84,"body":"AI you'd love us to cover, let me know. Fellas, this was fun."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":5337.84,"endTime":5338.899,"body":"Thanks for the time."},{"speaker":"Mihretu Guta","startTime":5338.899,"endTime":5340.85,"body":"Thanks for having us."},{"speaker":"Michael Arena","startTime":5340.85,"endTime":5346.899,"body":"Thank you. [upbeat music]"}]}