{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":0.1,"endTime":3.819,"body":"[upbeat music] The United States has a unique"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3.819,"endTime":7.559,"body":"religious composition, and it is changing in significant and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":7.559,"endTime":11.339,"body":"surprising ways. Here to discuss the religious landscape of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":11.339,"endTime":14.32,"body":"America and what challenges and opportunities it brings to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":14.32,"endTime":18.859,"body":"evangelicals is Professor Ryan Burge, a leading demographer of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":18.859,"endTime":22.3,"body":"religious trends and author of the new book, The American"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":22.3,"endTime":25.719,"body":"Religious Landscape. This is the Think Biblically podcast,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":25.719,"endTime":28.339,"body":"brought to you by Talbot School of Theology. I'm your host, Sean"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":28.339,"endTime":28.8,"body":"McDowell."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":28.8,"endTime":30.44,"body":"I'm your co-host, Scott Rae."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":30.44,"endTime":32.219,"body":"Ryan, thanks for coming back."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":32.219,"endTime":33.619,"body":"Always a pleasure to be with you guys."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":34.159,"endTime":36.979,"body":"Now, I'm gonna start where your book starts,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":36.979,"endTime":40.619,"body":"because the opening line of your book, you say that there's no"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":40.619,"endTime":44.5,"body":"other country on Earth that has the religious composition of the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":44.5,"endTime":49.6,"body":"US. So what is that composition, and what makes it so unique?"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":49.6,"endTime":55.299,"body":"So, America today is 63% Christian, about 30%"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":55.299,"endTime":59.06,"body":"non-religious, and about 7% everybody else. That's Mormons,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":59.06,"endTime":61.039,"body":"Hindus, Buddhists, you know, A-"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":61.92,"endTime":64.359,"body":"the Wiccans, Jedis, you name it-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":64.359,"endTime":64.37,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":64.37,"endTime":66.2,"body":"... That's in that 7%."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":66.719,"endTime":69.079,"body":"[clears throat] no country looks like that for a couple reasons."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":69.079,"endTime":73.099,"body":"One is, if you take our kind of closest cultural neighbors, like"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":73.099,"endTime":76.54,"body":"Western Europe, for instance, they're vastly more secular than"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":76.54,"endTime":79.39,"body":"we are. I mean, many of the Nordic countries have,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":79.39,"endTime":81.609,"body":"attendance rates that are below 5%,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":82.159,"endTime":84.959,"body":"so, you know, we can't really compare ourselves to Sweden or,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":84.959,"endTime":87.76,"body":"or Norway or Denmark, but even Italy and France don't look"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":87.76,"endTime":90.459,"body":"like... The secular numbers are way higher there. And then so"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":90.459,"endTime":93.42,"body":"let's say let's compare us to a really religious country. You'd"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":93.42,"endTime":95.739,"body":"have to go to places like Sub-Saharan Africa or the Middle"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":95.739,"endTime":98.519,"body":"East, and the religiosity there does not look like the"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":98.519,"endTime":102.159,"body":"religiosity here. What really sets us apart is we're a very"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":102.159,"endTime":105.299,"body":"religious country, and also we're a very wealthy country. No"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":105.299,"endTime":107.719,"body":"other country on Earth can claim both those things at the same"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":107.719,"endTime":109.019,"body":"time."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":109.019,"endTime":111.06,"body":"So is that the fun- the fundamental difference"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":111.06,"endTime":116.239,"body":"between, say, Christian faith south of the equator and north?"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":116.239,"endTime":119.56,"body":"Yeah, in a lot of ways, what's going on in"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":119.56,"endTime":121.9,"body":"central-- We don't even really fully understand, like, the"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":121.9,"endTime":124.4,"body":"contours of what Christianity looks like in, like, let's say,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":124.4,"endTime":127.54,"body":"Sub-Saharan Africa, Central South America. There's a growing"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":127.54,"endTime":129.879,"body":"explosion of evangelicalism, kind of what we would call"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":129.879,"endTime":132.58,"body":"evangelicalism, but really Pentecostalism in a lot of those"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":132.58,"endTime":135.02,"body":"places. Charismatic worship is really taking off. Those"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":135.02,"endTime":137.65,"body":"non-denominational churches are doing really well there,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":138.289,"endTime":140.62,"body":"and they're conservative. You know, their theology is actually"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":140.62,"endTime":143.729,"body":"probably to the right of the average evangelical in America,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":143.729,"endTime":146.439,"body":"and that's actually causing all kinds of issues. For instance,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":146.439,"endTime":148.86,"body":"the g- the breakup of the United Methodist Church was due"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":148.86,"endTime":149.84,"body":"in part-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":149.84,"endTime":149.849,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":149.849,"endTime":151.269,"body":"... To the fact that the only growth happening"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":151.269,"endTime":154.699,"body":"there is happening in Africa, where those, folks are more"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":154.699,"endTime":157.039,"body":"conservative than the average United Methodist in America, and"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":157.039,"endTime":159.62,"body":"they really kind of had a split they couldn't get around,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":159.62,"endTime":161.439,"body":"and that's why they're called the Global Methodist Church,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":161.439,"endTime":163.979,"body":"the break-off denomination, because they really do have a"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":163.979,"endTime":166.919,"body":"locus of power outside the United States."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":166.919,"endTime":169.979,"body":"So you said six- 63% Christian."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":169.979,"endTime":170.879,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":170.879,"endTime":173.259,"body":"30- some- 30-something..."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":173.259,"endTime":174.379,"body":"30% nones. Yep."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":174.379,"endTime":175.75,"body":"Nones, okay."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":175.75,"endTime":175.78,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":175.78,"endTime":179.659,"body":"So why is it that we refer to the United"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":179.659,"endTime":183.039,"body":"States as a secular society-"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":183.039,"endTime":183.069,"body":"[sighs]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":183.069,"endTime":186.219,"body":"... If we ha- if we have that many religious people-"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":186.219,"endTime":186.269,"body":"I think-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":186.269,"endTime":187.699,"body":"... In the country?"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":187.699,"endTime":189.93,"body":"I don't-- Well, I think what the,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":189.93,"endTime":192.18,"body":"the thought there is that, like, our government should be"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":192.18,"endTime":194.919,"body":"postured on a secular, you know, position. Like, we're not trying"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":194.919,"endTime":198.24,"body":"to advocate for one religion over the other, and that's"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":198.24,"endTime":201.099,"body":"actually, I think, what makes the United States really unique"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":201.099,"endTime":204.02,"body":"from its Western European neighbors is most of Western"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":204.02,"endTime":207.419,"body":"Europe had a state church at one point, if not until now. Even"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":207.419,"endTime":211.139,"body":"Germany has state religion. Even today, you actually pay taxes to"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":211.139,"endTime":214.68,"body":"a local denomination. We never did that. And, you know,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":214.68,"endTime":216.56,"body":"I'm a Baptist, so I'm a believer of strong [chuckles] separation"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":216.56,"endTime":218.659,"body":"of church and state, and I actually believe that one of the"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":218.659,"endTime":221.099,"body":"reasons that religion is still robust in the United States is"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":221.099,"endTime":224.199,"body":"because we are a secular country from a government perspective."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":224.199,"endTime":227.219,"body":"We don't favor one religion over the other. We don't pay taxes to"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":227.219,"endTime":229.829,"body":"a state church or any church. The government's not involved in"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":229.829,"endTime":232.0,"body":"any of those things, and I actually think that created a"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":232.0,"endTime":234.78,"body":"religious marketplace that allowed religion to thrive in a"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":234.78,"endTime":237.539,"body":"way that it really doesn't thrive in most of our closest"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":237.539,"endTime":239.319,"body":"cultural neighbors."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":239.319,"endTime":241.219,"body":"I think part of the conversation, too, would be"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":241.219,"endTime":244.879,"body":"some of the influential spheres, like the media, educational"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":244.879,"endTime":248.24,"body":"system, university, shaped more by secular ideas"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":248.8,"endTime":252.199,"body":"than by religious ideas, but in many ways, that's a separate"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":252.199,"endTime":255.36,"body":"conversation for another time. I'd, I'd love to know, in your"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":255.36,"endTime":258.48,"body":"research on evangelicals, especially in this book, when"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":258.48,"endTime":261.56,"body":"you're looking at kind of the American religious landscape-"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":261.56,"endTime":261.92,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":261.92,"endTime":264.439,"body":"... What surprises you about that?"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":264.439,"endTime":266.72,"body":"[sighs] Y- One thing I think that most people"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":266.72,"endTime":270.079,"body":"don't fully appreciate is if you look at sort of a distribution"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":270.079,"endTime":274.279,"body":"of age in the evangelical population, there's a huge"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":274.279,"endTime":277.48,"body":"concentration of evangelicals in the ages of, like, 55 and 70"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":277.48,"endTime":277.98,"body":"years old."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":279.339,"endTime":283.48,"body":"Which is good for now, but really bad in 25 years"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":283.48,"endTime":286.72,"body":"[chuckles] because most of those people will be dead or close to"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":286.72,"endTime":288.699,"body":"death. You know, they won't be active members of their church."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":288.699,"endTime":291.54,"body":"They won't be volunteering and doing all the work behind the"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":291.54,"endTime":294.5,"body":"scenes to make those churches go, and there's not another sort"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":294.5,"endTime":297.959,"body":"of bulge in the, in the age pyramid behind that to replace"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":297.959,"endTime":300.8,"body":"all the people that have left. Really, the evangelical"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":300.8,"endTime":303.24,"body":"movement, if I would describe it's a baby boomer-led"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":303.24,"endTime":306.819,"body":"movement. I mean, it really gained traction in the 1970s"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":306.819,"endTime":310.12,"body":"through the 1990s, when boomers were coming of age, and there's"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":310.12,"endTime":312.92,"body":"no generation that's really come up behind them to fill in"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":312.92,"endTime":315.16,"body":"those gaps. And man, a lot of these churches that are, let's"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":315.16,"endTime":318.019,"body":"say, 300 people today, are not gonna be 300 people in 20 years"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":318.019,"endTime":320.519,"body":"because all those boomers are gonna die off, and there's just"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":320.519,"endTime":323.769,"body":"not a lot of millennials and Gen Z to fill that gap in."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":324.639,"endTime":326.139,"body":"What would you say about the discussion today"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":326.139,"endTime":330.639,"body":"in terms of revival and Gen Z coming back to church? I know"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":330.639,"endTime":332.35,"body":"you did a Substack on this a while ago-"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":332.35,"endTime":332.35,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":332.35,"endTime":334.699,"body":"... Which I read your Substack. It's great, by"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":334.699,"endTime":338.779,"body":"the way. But are we seeing a possible shift where there might"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":338.779,"endTime":342.759,"body":"be a new baby boom generation that leans into evangelical"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":342.759,"endTime":343.379,"body":"ideas?"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":344.06,"endTime":345.74,"body":"So this is... I literally get asked this"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":345.74,"endTime":347.629,"body":"question probably five times a week now by-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":347.629,"endTime":348.29,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":348.29,"endTime":351.199,"body":"... Everybody on Earth, um-... So there is some"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":351.199,"endTime":353.139,"body":"peripheral metrics that do sort of like"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":353.759,"endTime":356.6,"body":"nudge their way towards revival. For instance, you know, Bible"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":356.6,"endTime":360.06,"body":"sales are up 40%, Spotify streams of Christian music are"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":360.06,"endTime":361.05,"body":"up 50%-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":361.05,"endTime":361.05,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":361.05,"endTime":363.819,"body":"... Christian app downloads are up 90%, which, I"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":363.819,"endTime":365.819,"body":"mean, those are interesting metrics, don't get me wrong, but"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":365.819,"endTime":368.439,"body":"at the end of the day, it's, it's, it's about butts in seats,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":368.439,"endTime":370.48,"body":"to be, [chuckles] to be clear, right? Like, that's what revival"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":370.48,"endTime":372.5,"body":"would lead to. And let me just walk"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":373.139,"endTime":376.16,"body":"us through a, an exercise here. Let's say, so today in America,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":376.16,"endTime":379.36,"body":"about 25% of Americans report weekly attendance. Whether"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":379.36,"endTime":381.24,"body":"that's true or not, it's irrelevant. That's just the"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":381.24,"endTime":385.139,"body":"number, 25%. Let's say a revival would be an increase of just"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":385.139,"endTime":388.56,"body":"three percentage points in weekly attenders. So that"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":388.56,"endTime":391.639,"body":"translates in actual numbers to somewhere between 10 and 12"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":391.639,"endTime":394.319,"body":"million new people coming to church today that were not"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":394.319,"endTime":398.16,"body":"coming six months or a year ago. 12 million people across about"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":398.16,"endTime":401.8,"body":"300,000 Christian houses of worship, which means that every"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":401.8,"endTime":404.959,"body":"single church in America would need to add, on average, 30 to"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":404.959,"endTime":408.98,"body":"35 new people today they didn't have six months ago, to get to"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":408.98,"endTime":412.459,"body":"that three percentage point increase. So when you actually,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":412.459,"endTime":415.678,"body":"like, think of the numbers of what it would actually take to"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":415.678,"endTime":419.54,"body":"see a significant bump in religiosity in America,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":420.06,"endTime":422.149,"body":"you realize, wow, that's a really... [chuckles] That's a,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":422.149,"endTime":424.959,"body":"that's a huge mountain to climb. And, while we can all talk about"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":424.959,"endTime":427.36,"body":"churches that have added 1,000 people last year and 2,000"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":427.36,"endTime":429.6,"body":"people last year, the average church in America is somewhere"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":429.6,"endTime":433.879,"body":"between 70 and 75 attendees. So are they adding 30 new people?"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":433.879,"endTime":436.98,"body":"Are they getting 50% larger? I think we can all admit that"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":436.98,"endTime":439.819,"body":"most churches are not doing that. They're staying stagnant"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":439.819,"endTime":442.5,"body":"or not even getting smaller over the last six months or a year."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":443.379,"endTime":446.8,"body":"So, Ryan, what, if anything, gives you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":446.8,"endTime":450.399,"body":"hope and optimism about the future of evangelicalism, given-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":450.399,"endTime":452.279,"body":"... The trends that you've just described?"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":453.42,"endTime":455.5,"body":"I think it's the fact that, you know, there's"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":455.5,"endTime":458.279,"body":"this concept, like the remnant, right? You know, the, like, the"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":458.279,"endTime":461.699,"body":"faithful few who still stick around, and I think actually"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":461.699,"endTime":464.68,"body":"evangelicalism would serve itself a lot better by not"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":464.68,"endTime":467.259,"body":"trying to dominate the culture, by living in the culture and"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":467.259,"endTime":470.839,"body":"being one of many groups in a pluralistic society. And"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":470.839,"endTime":473.399,"body":"operating from that posture, I think is much"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":473.399,"endTime":476.759,"body":"more humble- ... It's much more approachable, it's much more"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":476.759,"endTime":480.18,"body":"willing to engage in dialogue. And I think the problem is,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":480.18,"endTime":481.98,"body":"I think a lot of people who are outside the church feel like the"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":481.98,"endTime":485.36,"body":"church is trying to dictate their entire lives, and the"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":485.36,"endTime":488.399,"body":"reality is 63% of Americans are Christian, so yeah, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":488.399,"endTime":490.819,"body":"you're the majority group, but in the future, that's not gonna"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":490.819,"endTime":493.779,"body":"be true. So how does-- how do evangelicals, how do Christians,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":493.779,"endTime":497.04,"body":"largely speaking, reorient themselves? And I'm, I'm"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":497.04,"endTime":500.48,"body":"hopeful, actually, that creates a more helpful and healthy"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":500.48,"endTime":503.839,"body":"posture of evangelicalism in America. We can't lord over you."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":503.839,"endTime":507.04,"body":"We have to walk alongside you and try to convince you"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":507.04,"endTime":509.56,"body":"know, why this message is right."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":509.56,"endTime":511.879,"body":"As far as my awareness, Ryan, it feels"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":511.879,"endTime":514.298,"body":"like, and this might be because I was in college in the '90s,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":514.298,"endTime":518.24,"body":"but there was discussion about the downward trajectory of the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":518.24,"endTime":519.279,"body":"mainline church"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":519.899,"endTime":523.798,"body":"at an even greater rate than the evangelical church. In your"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":523.798,"endTime":528.259,"body":"book, you say it's, like, going to largely disappear. So"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":528.259,"endTime":531.58,"body":"we've been talking about the coming potential cliff, and it"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":531.58,"endTime":534.98,"body":"seems like you're saying, \"Yeah, the cliff is coming. It's going"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":534.98,"endTime":538.639,"body":"to disappear.\" So I'd be curious what you think, how bad is it"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":538.639,"endTime":541.519,"body":"for the mainline Protestant church, and is it really gonna"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":541.519,"endTime":544.44,"body":"disappear? And if so, why?"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":544.44,"endTime":547.6,"body":"So, I mean, there's no way to sugarcoat this. I"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":547.6,"endTime":550.379,"body":"mean, it's, it's ba- however bad you think it is for the"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":550.379,"endTime":552.44,"body":"mainline- ... It's worse. Um-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":552.44,"endTime":552.779,"body":"Wow!"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":552.779,"endTime":555.059,"body":"So they were, over 50% of America in the late"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":555.059,"endTime":559.379,"body":"1950s, they were 30% of America in the mid-1970s, and today,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":559.379,"endTime":561.899,"body":"less than 10% of all American adults are a part of the"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":561.899,"endTime":565.44,"body":"mainline. Less than 2% of all American adults are young"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":565.44,"endTime":568.019,"body":"mainline Protestants, in the ages of 18 and 40 years old-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":568.019,"endTime":568.349,"body":"Wow!"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":568.349,"endTime":569.82,"body":"... Which means those are childbearing ones."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":569.82,"endTime":571.639,"body":"Those are the ones who replicate, right? Who can kind"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":571.639,"endTime":574.6,"body":"of pass the denomination on to the next generation, and there's"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":574.6,"endTime":577.82,"body":"just very few of them. I mean, in the Episcopal Church, God"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":577.82,"endTime":579.5,"body":"love the Episcopal Church, they're so good at record"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":579.5,"endTime":581.5,"body":"keeping, and they actually publish the numbers even"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":581.5,"endTime":583.94,"body":"when they're really bad, and they're really bad. [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":584.5,"endTime":587.559,"body":"you know, half of Episcopalians have celebrated their 65th"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":587.559,"endTime":591.179,"body":"birthday, and 13% are under the age of 18. I mean, [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":591.179,"endTime":593.6,"body":"just math that out actuarially. Like, what does"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":593.6,"endTime":596.44,"body":"that look like? And, and they're not alone in that. I mean, most"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":596.44,"endTime":600.12,"body":"mainline denominations are down 40 or 50% in membership just,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":600.12,"endTime":603.34,"body":"just since the late 1980s. And there's really, like I said,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":603.34,"endTime":605.62,"body":"there's just really not a whole lot of hope. When you walk in"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":605.62,"endTime":607.818,"body":"those churches, and you see, you know, a whole lot of gray hair"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":607.818,"endTime":611.22,"body":"and no kids or very few kids, I mean, you've basically"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":611.22,"endTime":614.48,"body":"demographically sealed your fate in that situation, that there's,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":614.48,"endTime":616.299,"body":"there's not a lot of light at the end of the tunnel."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":617.919,"endTime":621.34,"body":"So by... I suspect by contrast, Ryan, the,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":621.34,"endTime":625.799,"body":"the Black Protestant church is different than that. So tell us,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":625.799,"endTime":628.259,"body":"tell our listeners a bit about the state of the Black"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":628.259,"endTime":629.24,"body":"Protestant church-"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":629.24,"endTime":629.578,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":629.578,"endTime":632.078,"body":"... And sort of what, I suspect there are unique"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":632.078,"endTime":633.519,"body":"challenges that they face"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":634.399,"endTime":637.62,"body":"in comparison to evangelicals and the mainline."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":637.62,"endTime":639.659,"body":"Yeah, so the Black church has always been, you"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":639.659,"endTime":642.34,"body":"know... Like, I, when I teach about this, I have to make this"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":642.34,"endTime":644.48,"body":"point. The reason we divide the Black church up is 'cause if"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":644.48,"endTime":646.84,"body":"you've ever walked into a Black church, and you grew up in a"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":646.84,"endTime":648.72,"body":"white evangelical church, even a white mainline church, you"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":648.72,"endTime":651.539,"body":"realize just how different they are- ... You know, culture-wise."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":651.539,"endTime":653.379,"body":"And also, the Black church is sort of the center of the,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":653.379,"endTime":655.86,"body":"center spoke of the community, in the Black community. It's not"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":655.86,"endTime":658.86,"body":"just a religious space, it's also a social space, it's also a"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":658.86,"endTime":661.399,"body":"political space, and that's because they were locked out of"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":661.399,"endTime":664.36,"body":"those other spaces, you know, 30, 40, 50 years ago with Jim"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":664.36,"endTime":667.068,"body":"Crow. So that institution developed completely differently"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":667.639,"endTime":668.318,"body":"there."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":669.0,"endTime":673.36,"body":"They are sort of slowly sliding downward. The share of Americans"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":673.36,"endTime":675.72,"body":"who are, members of a Black Protestant church are less than"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":675.72,"endTime":678.818,"body":"5% now. Interesting fact, though, about Black Protestants,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":678.818,"endTime":681.879,"body":"they're actually really religiously devout. On a lot of"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":681.879,"endTime":684.129,"body":"metrics, I c- actually can make a pretty strong empirical"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":684.129,"endTime":687.818,"body":"argument. They might actually be the most religiously devout, of"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":687.818,"endTime":690.44,"body":"any religious group on things like, frequency of religious"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":690.44,"endTime":693.62,"body":"attendance- ... Things like prayer frequency, things like"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":693.62,"endTime":696.6,"body":"religious importance. They score higher than even Latter-day"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":696.6,"endTime":699.419,"body":"Saints on a lot of those metrics. So the ones that are"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":699.419,"endTime":702.0,"body":"left there are incredibly devout, and when"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":702.0,"endTime":704.759,"body":"African Americans leave the Black church, they actually"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":704.759,"endTime":707.98,"body":"don't go that far. So if you look at Black nuns, so Black"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":707.98,"endTime":711.22,"body":"non-religious people, 90% of them describe their religion as"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":711.22,"endTime":714.919,"body":"nothing in particular. Only 10% say they're atheist or agnostic."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":714.919,"endTime":717.399,"body":"So when they leave, they don't go to the, sort of the other end"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":717.399,"endTime":720.078,"body":"of the religious spectrum. They sort of hang out in the mushy"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":720.078,"endTime":722.74,"body":"middle, where they don't hate religion, but they're also not"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":722.74,"endTime":725.078,"body":"an atheist either. They're just sort of, they shrug their"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":725.078,"endTime":726.759,"body":"shoulders when they think about religion."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":726.759,"endTime":728.818,"body":"Now, are... Would you, would you see the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":728.818,"endTime":732.24,"body":"Black evangelical church as somewhat different than that?"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":732.988,"endTime":734.687,"body":"... So this is, like, where classification gets"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":734.687,"endTime":736.648,"body":"really hard. So when we call it the Black church, we usually"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":736.648,"endTime":739.388,"body":"think, like, the AME Church, African Methodist Episcopal"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":739.388,"endTime":742.587,"body":"Church, the AME Zion Church, the National Baptist Convention. And"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":742.587,"endTime":745.768,"body":"a lot of them, their theology is very evangelical. Like, they"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":745.768,"endTime":748.168,"body":"believe the Bible is literally true. They try to evangelize"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":748.168,"endTime":751.107,"body":"other people. The reason that we divide them out, not just the"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":751.107,"endTime":754.148,"body":"thing we talk about culturally, but also, you know, let's be"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":754.148,"endTime":756.447,"body":"clear here, 80% of white evangelicals voted for Donald"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":756.447,"endTime":761.528,"body":"Trump in 2024, and 90% of Black Protestants, voted for Harris."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":761.528,"endTime":764.168,"body":"So, you know, the way I describe to my students is,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":764.168,"endTime":766.668,"body":"theologically, evangelicals and Black Protestants are actually"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":766.668,"endTime":768.727,"body":"really close together, but politically they couldn't be"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":768.727,"endTime":770.866,"body":"further apart, and I think that's really one of the key"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":770.866,"endTime":771.967,"body":"differences."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":771.967,"endTime":773.748,"body":"That's a help- that's a helpful distinction."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":773.748,"endTime":776.638,"body":"Wow, 80 and 90, that's amazing. It's hard"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":776.638,"endTime":779.488,"body":"to think of something that would be more defining in terms of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":779.488,"endTime":780.648,"body":"differences-"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":780.648,"endTime":781.097,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":781.097,"endTime":782.366,"body":"... Than that. Now, in your book, you talk"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":782.366,"endTime":785.768,"body":"about Latter-day Saints, growth of Muslims. You talk about"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":785.768,"endTime":789.347,"body":"Catholics, and I'm really curious, how religiously active"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":789.347,"endTime":791.148,"body":"are Catholics today?"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":791.148,"endTime":791.447,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":791.447,"endTime":794.488,"body":"And how much, kind of in particular, do they"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":794.488,"endTime":798.847,"body":"practically embrace Catholic teachings on social issues like"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":798.847,"endTime":801.807,"body":"abortion, same-sex marriage, and contraception?"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":801.807,"endTime":802.447,"body":"Yeah, so"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":803.067,"endTime":804.807,"body":"the share of Americans who are Catholic has actually been"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":804.807,"endTime":807.307,"body":"really stable over the last 50 years. You know, I put"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":807.307,"endTime":809.866,"body":"the graph up, and it's just basically a line just bouncing,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":809.866,"endTime":814.467,"body":"you know, above and below 25%, 23%, 26%, 25%, just bounce up"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":814.467,"endTime":816.626,"body":"and down. Now, the last couple years, it's gone down just a"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":816.626,"endTime":819.866,"body":"little bit. So today, the share of Americans who are Catholic is"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":819.866,"endTime":824.408,"body":"probably 22 or 23%, down just a couple points from the baseline."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":824.408,"endTime":827.148,"body":"But the number below that number is actually the more important"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":827.148,"endTime":829.408,"body":"number, which is the share of Catholics who report attending"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":829.408,"endTime":833.248,"body":"mass nearly every week or more. In the 1970s, about half of"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":833.248,"endTime":836.788,"body":"Catholics were weekly mass attenders, and today it's only"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":836.788,"endTime":840.126,"body":"25% of Catholics- ... Are weekly mass attenders. So on an average"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":840.126,"endTime":842.388,"body":"Sunday in America, we can extrapolate out there's about"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":842.388,"endTime":843.768,"body":"maybe 15 million"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":844.307,"endTime":848.908,"body":"Catholics going to mass nationwide in a country of 340"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":848.908,"endTime":852.187,"body":"million people. So yes, there's a lot of... You know, almost a"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":852.187,"endTime":855.727,"body":"quarter of Americans identify as Catholic, but the actual number"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":855.727,"endTime":858.427,"body":"who are sort of devout, church-going, practicing"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":858.427,"endTime":861.488,"body":"Catholics, is incredibly low. And as you mentioned, if you"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":861.488,"endTime":865.307,"body":"look at their behavior on abortion, a majority"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":865.307,"endTime":869.087,"body":"of Catholics, favor of abortion rights. On contraceptives, even"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":869.087,"endTime":871.748,"body":"though the church, preaches specifically against birth"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":871.748,"endTime":876.248,"body":"control, 95% of Catholics have used birth control in their"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":876.248,"endTime":877.177,"body":"lives before."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":877.177,"endTime":877.207,"body":"Wow!"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":877.207,"endTime":878.807,"body":"So I think there's a lot of sort of cultural"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":878.807,"endTime":880.947,"body":"Catholicism, where you're a Catholic because you're, you"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":880.947,"endTime":884.087,"body":"know, Irish American, Italian American, Hispanic, and it's"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":884.087,"endTime":886.587,"body":"part of your sort of familial lineage. It's almost become"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":886.587,"endTime":888.768,"body":"like, you know, people are, like, ethnically Jewish. It's"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":888.768,"endTime":891.087,"body":"almost like that with Catholicism, and they're not"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":891.087,"endTime":893.148,"body":"really... You know, they might go to Confirmation, go to First"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":893.148,"endTime":895.447,"body":"Communion, do all those things, and by the time they're 13 years"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":895.447,"endTime":895.727,"body":"old,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":896.347,"endTime":898.268,"body":"they stop going entirely."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":899.408,"endTime":902.707,"body":"Wow, that I had no idea that the ratio was"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":902.707,"endTime":905.587,"body":"that high. I mean, I think it's, it's... I think it's"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":905.587,"endTime":906.528,"body":"pretty common knowledge"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":907.248,"endTime":910.427,"body":"that, not every- not everybody who claims to be Catholic"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":910.427,"endTime":914.748,"body":"adheres to all the elements of Catholic teaching. But to see"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":914.748,"endTime":918.327,"body":"the number that high on some, on some of those aspects"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":918.327,"endTime":919.788,"body":"is really surprising."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":919.788,"endTime":923.648,"body":"95%, I just have to say again, use contraception,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":923.648,"endTime":924.347,"body":"and over-"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":924.347,"endTime":924.356,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":924.356,"endTime":925.988,"body":"... Half are pro-choice."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":925.988,"endTime":926.097,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":926.097,"endTime":928.807,"body":"These are, like, defining, important issues for"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":928.807,"endTime":930.847,"body":"Catholics, just to emphasize your point, Scott."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":930.847,"endTime":933.587,"body":"Yeah. Now, Ryan, I'm, I'm curious, as- to ask a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":933.587,"endTime":936.126,"body":"similar question that Sean did about Catholics, I'm curious"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":936.126,"endTime":939.347,"body":"about how m- how m- that might apply to the Jewish community."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":939.347,"endTime":940.168,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":940.168,"endTime":942.888,"body":"And is it... You know, h- I mean, are there- is"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":942.888,"endTime":945.607,"body":"there a different... Can, can we distinct- can we distinguish"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":945.607,"endTime":949.847,"body":"between secular religious Jews, you know, and how religiously"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":949.847,"endTime":953.107,"body":"committed they are? Because you've got, you know, we got the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":953.107,"endTime":955.488,"body":"Ul- the Ultra-Orthodox, who I'd say are the, are the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":955.488,"endTime":959.467,"body":"ultra-committed, and then Reformed and other types of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":959.467,"endTime":962.508,"body":"Jewish communities, not so much. And then I think there are some"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":962.508,"endTime":963.427,"body":"that are just Jewish"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":964.048,"endTime":965.587,"body":"by ethnicity-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":965.587,"endTime":966.227,"body":"Or culturally"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":966.227,"endTime":967.427,"body":"... Yeah, more than anything, more than anything"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":967.427,"endTime":968.388,"body":"else."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":968.388,"endTime":969.668,"body":"Yeah, that's actually one of the hardest"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":969.668,"endTime":969.947,"body":"things."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":970.788,"endTime":974.067,"body":"Judaism presents a real problem from, like, a survey research"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":974.067,"endTime":976.827,"body":"standpoint because it- like you mentioned, it's, it's, it's a"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":976.827,"endTime":980.248,"body":"religion, but it's also a genetic thing, a heritage thing,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":980.248,"endTime":982.268,"body":"right? Your parents are Jewish. They're... And, and so"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":982.268,"endTime":984.707,"body":"therefore, you're Jewish, but you might be an atheist Jew."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":984.707,"endTime":986.217,"body":"That's always a fun thing, when people tell me they're an"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":986.217,"endTime":987.528,"body":"atheist Jew. I'm like, \"Okay.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":987.528,"endTime":987.798,"body":"Right? [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":987.798,"endTime":989.467,"body":"\"How are we gonna classify these people?\""},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":989.467,"endTime":989.947,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":990.607,"endTime":993.687,"body":"but the problem is you can't really write a survey, like a"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":993.687,"endTime":996.807,"body":"general purpose survey, that really digs down into the"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":996.807,"endTime":1000.207,"body":"Jewish issue, you know, dividing them into... Like, you wanna ask"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1000.207,"endTime":1002.748,"body":"Jews, like, the follow-up, which is like, \"Are you a secular Jew,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1002.748,"endTime":1005.327,"body":"or are you, like, a, like, a religious Jew?\" But you can't,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1005.327,"endTime":1006.616,"body":"you can't do that for Catholics."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1006.616,"endTime":1006.647,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1006.647,"endTime":1008.307,"body":"You can't do that for Protestants. It would feel"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1008.307,"endTime":1010.587,"body":"weird to do that. So the problem is, we have to sort of, like,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1010.587,"endTime":1013.126,"body":"back into the answer. And I... You know, in the book, I talk"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1013.126,"endTime":1015.207,"body":"about, like, you know, Jews who don't have a lot of importance"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1015.207,"endTime":1018.508,"body":"on religion or don't go to synagogue very often, but even"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1018.508,"endTime":1020.168,"body":"then, like we just talked about with Catholics, I mean, there's"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1020.168,"endTime":1022.886,"body":"a lot of Catholics... Even among evangelicals, half of them don't"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1022.886,"endTime":1025.646,"body":"go to church every week. So it's like, how do you-- I don't"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1025.646,"endTime":1028.587,"body":"wanna, put my values. You know, people are like, \"What about the"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1028.587,"endTime":1031.248,"body":"real Christians?\" I go, \"Define a real Christian for me.\""},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1031.248,"endTime":1033.248,"body":"[chuckles] You know? Like, what's the dividing line?"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1033.248,"endTime":1036.288,"body":"Operationalize, that's my, the term I use a lot. Operationalize"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1036.288,"endTime":1039.228,"body":"the concept for me, right? What is the dividing line between a"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1039.228,"endTime":1041.926,"body":"real Christian and a not? Is it prayer frequency? Is it"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1041.926,"endTime":1045.107,"body":"religious attendance? Is it evangelical identification,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1045.107,"endTime":1047.748,"body":"religious importance? Tell me, like, how to create a real"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1047.748,"endTime":1050.428,"body":"Christian, because if I ask 10 people, they'd all create a"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1050.428,"endTime":1051.847,"body":"different category, and I think-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1051.847,"endTime":1051.958,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1051.958,"endTime":1053.468,"body":"... The same thing's true with Jews. You"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1053.468,"endTime":1055.667,"body":"know, like, what's the dividing line between being a secular Jew"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1055.667,"endTime":1058.048,"body":"and being a religiously observant Jew? I think if you"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1058.048,"endTime":1061.107,"body":"ask 10 Jews, they'd give you a different answer."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1061.107,"endTime":1062.307,"body":"I wanna highlight for our audience-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1062.307,"endTime":1062.397,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1062.397,"endTime":1063.468,"body":"... That we're not trying to answer the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1063.468,"endTime":1066.847,"body":"question theologically or biblically, what is a real"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1066.847,"endTime":1069.788,"body":"question, but in terms of surveying the religious"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1069.788,"endTime":1070.488,"body":"[chuckles] landscape."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1070.488,"endTime":1070.988,"body":"Exactly right."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1070.988,"endTime":1072.988,"body":"How do you really get to the heart and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1072.988,"endTime":1076.248,"body":"beliefs about somebody and show that on a survey?"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1076.248,"endTime":1076.347,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1076.347,"endTime":1077.407,"body":"That's where it gets tricky."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1077.407,"endTime":1077.807,"body":"Yeah, so"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1078.446,"endTime":1082.048,"body":"just to follow up on the, on the Jewish community, Ryan, if you,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1082.048,"endTime":1085.487,"body":"if you had to guess at it-... Mm-hmm, what percentage would"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1085.487,"endTime":1089.087,"body":"you say are secular as opposed to religious Jews?"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1089.087,"endTime":1091.288,"body":"Probably half. Yeah, so about one and a half"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1091.288,"endTime":1095.367,"body":"percent- ... Of Americans, identify as Jewish, and so I"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1095.367,"endTime":1098.247,"body":"think you could probably put, like, observant Jews probably"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1098.247,"endTime":1101.928,"body":"right below 1% of the population. So you're talking in"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1101.928,"endTime":1104.487,"body":"a, you know, country of 345 million people, you're talking"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1104.487,"endTime":1106.007,"body":"about maybe three and a half million-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1106.007,"endTime":1106.267,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1106.267,"endTime":1107.946,"body":"... Observant. And I think that's actually one"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1107.946,"endTime":1109.767,"body":"of the, like, one of the takeaways from the book is, I"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1109.767,"endTime":1113.167,"body":"think we need to understand how small some of these religious"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1113.167,"endTime":1115.247,"body":"groups really are. You know, like, I think they play an"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1115.247,"endTime":1117.788,"body":"outsized role in the discourse. For instance, you know, like we"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1117.788,"endTime":1120.627,"body":"talk about Jews are 1.5, maybe 2% of the population at the"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1120.627,"endTime":1123.387,"body":"most, yet it seems like there's a lot of discussion about"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1123.387,"endTime":1127.587,"body":"Judaism in America or, Muslims. You know, Muslims are 1% of the"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1127.587,"endTime":1130.507,"body":"population. They're not this huge share, yet we talk about"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1130.507,"endTime":1133.548,"body":"them all the time. For every one Muslim in America, there's 63"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1133.548,"endTime":1136.727,"body":"Christians, and we don't talk about Christians in America 63"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1136.727,"endTime":1138.827,"body":"times more than we talk about Muslims. I think we're"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1138.827,"endTime":1142.507,"body":"fascinated by these really small religious groups in America."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1142.507,"endTime":1144.048,"body":"Well, I think partially for the Jewish"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1144.048,"endTime":1146.327,"body":"community, I think you can make an argument that they've had"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1146.327,"endTime":1150.327,"body":"outsized cultural influence, given their numbers. We also"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1150.327,"endTime":1152.267,"body":"talk a lot about antisemitism."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1152.267,"endTime":1152.737,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1153.667,"endTime":1155.946,"body":"Why do you think we talk so much about antisemitism"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1155.946,"endTime":1158.227,"body":"for 1% of the population?"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1158.227,"endTime":1160.207,"body":"[sighs] This is the, this is the question that's"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1160.207,"endTime":1163.207,"body":"gonna... Like, you gotta dodge landmines left or right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1163.207,"endTime":1164.087,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1164.087,"endTime":1165.347,"body":"And it's unfortunate, right? 'Cause we"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1165.347,"endTime":1167.487,"body":"can't just, like, have an honest conversation about things. But,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1167.487,"endTime":1170.087,"body":"I mean, I think you are right. Like, empirically speaking,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1170.087,"endTime":1173.767,"body":"Jewish people are overrepresented in places like"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1173.767,"endTime":1177.347,"body":"the legal profession, right? Like, that's just a fact. They"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1177.347,"endTime":1180.407,"body":"have... Statistically speaking, they have really high incomes."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1180.407,"endTime":1184.107,"body":"Actually, of the the top four, highest incomes, it goes Jewish"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1184.107,"endTime":1186.267,"body":"group, Jewish group, Hindus, and Jewish group, and then"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1186.267,"endTime":1189.167,"body":"Episcopalians- ... They're fifth. So, like, statistically"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1189.167,"endTime":1192.707,"body":"speaking, like, these tropes, you know, these stereotypes do"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1192.707,"endTime":1195.467,"body":"come from somewhere that's statistically true. That's"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1195.467,"endTime":1197.527,"body":"actually one of the weirdest, like, most awkward parts of my"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1197.527,"endTime":1199.627,"body":"job, is I have to say, \"Yeah, the thing that everyone says,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1199.627,"endTime":1202.967,"body":"like, kind of jokes about, is actually true, empirically"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1202.967,"endTime":1206.107,"body":"true.\" And I mean, we'll add to that the fact of what's going"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1206.107,"endTime":1209.207,"body":"on with Israel and Gaza, Hamas, and all that stuff. I"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1209.207,"endTime":1212.207,"body":"think, you know, Israel's always... I bet Israel as a"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1212.207,"endTime":1215.527,"body":"country is discussed more in the United States than any other"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1215.527,"endTime":1218.127,"body":"country in the world, and I just think that's a really"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1218.127,"endTime":1220.507,"body":"fascinating... I mean, they're not statistically that large or"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1220.507,"endTime":1223.446,"body":"that powerful or really that important, but man, we talk"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1223.446,"endTime":1226.186,"body":"about Israel and Judaism a lot in this country. And I think"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1226.186,"endTime":1228.867,"body":"part of it, too, by the way, is Zionism. A lot of evangelicals"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1228.867,"endTime":1231.268,"body":"want to talk about Israel and protecting Israel and the end of"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1231.268,"endTime":1233.867,"body":"times and all those things, but they d- I think it's"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1233.867,"endTime":1236.607,"body":"statistically true to say they play an outsized role in the"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1236.607,"endTime":1239.407,"body":"discourse based on the actual size of their population."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1239.407,"endTime":1241.247,"body":"Yeah, and not that you're saying that's a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1241.247,"endTime":1242.067,"body":"bad thing."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1242.067,"endTime":1243.236,"body":"No, not at all."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1243.236,"endTime":1244.857,"body":"It's just, it's just an observation, right? And, and-"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1244.857,"endTime":1246.727,"body":"It's just an observation, and that's"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1246.727,"endTime":1248.987,"body":"the thing is, like, you know, you don't wanna get accused of"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1248.987,"endTime":1251.487,"body":"being anti-Semite. Like, the last thing I would ever wanna"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1251.487,"endTime":1254.067,"body":"do. I have a l- I work with Jewish groups all the time. I"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1254.067,"endTime":1255.607,"body":"love them. I work with Latter-day Saint groups all the"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1255.607,"endTime":1258.547,"body":"time. I work with the Freedom From Religion Foundation guys."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1258.547,"endTime":1258.696,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1258.696,"endTime":1260.607,"body":"They gave me a grant to study their membership."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1260.607,"endTime":1261.327,"body":"I did that."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1261.327,"endTime":1261.547,"body":"Amazing."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1261.547,"endTime":1264.167,"body":"I will work with any group who is willing to give"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1264.167,"endTime":1267.467,"body":"me access to data and have no editorial control over what I"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1267.467,"endTime":1270.487,"body":"write. I just wanna understand the world, whether it be"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1270.487,"endTime":1274.087,"body":"evangelicals or Catholics or Muslims, I don't care. If you"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1274.087,"endTime":1276.647,"body":"want... If you think I can help you understand yourself and help"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1276.647,"endTime":1279.428,"body":"other people understand you, then I'm in, all the way."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1279.987,"endTime":1281.407,"body":"And by the way, I know at this point some people"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1281.407,"endTime":1285.087,"body":"are saying, \"Well, of course, Israel has an outside influence"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1285.087,"endTime":1288.647,"body":"because of God's promises to them and the future of Israel.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1288.647,"endTime":1292.587,"body":"Again, that's a theological point. We are looking at this in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1292.587,"endTime":1297.127,"body":"terms of surveying religious trends in America and beyond."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1297.127,"endTime":1300.387,"body":"That's kind of the trajectory by which you're approaching this."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1300.387,"endTime":1300.747,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1300.747,"endTime":1302.186,"body":"Now, you've mentioned a couple times the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1302.186,"endTime":1303.288,"body":"Latter-day Saints."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1303.288,"endTime":1303.617,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1303.617,"endTime":1307.247,"body":"What is the conversion trajectory for, the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1307.247,"endTime":1310.407,"body":"Mormon Church, and how much of that, if we can really tell,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1310.407,"endTime":1313.387,"body":"is due to conversion birth versus birth rate?"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1313.387,"endTime":1315.247,"body":"Okay, so interesting fact about"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1315.247,"endTime":1317.467,"body":"Latter-day Saints- there are actually more Latter-day Saints"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1317.467,"endTime":1320.446,"body":"living outside the United States now than inside the United"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1320.446,"endTime":1321.027,"body":"States."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1321.027,"endTime":1321.067,"body":"Wow!"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1321.067,"endTime":1322.487,"body":"I don't think a lot of people realize that."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1322.487,"endTime":1322.788,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1322.788,"endTime":1323.038,"body":"Huh."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1323.038,"endTime":1325.067,"body":"Like, it's actually been called the most American"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1325.067,"endTime":1327.467,"body":"religion, which I think is true, by the way, 'cause it's, like,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1327.467,"endTime":1329.446,"body":"the religion that started in the United States-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1329.446,"endTime":1329.577,"body":"That's right"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1329.577,"endTime":1330.557,"body":"... That has a global reach."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1330.557,"endTime":1330.607,"body":"That's right."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1330.607,"endTime":1333.547,"body":"Like, that's a fact. But their growth has"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1333.547,"endTime":1336.167,"body":"actually slowed down significantly inside the United"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1336.167,"endTime":1338.907,"body":"States and grown exponentially... It's like these"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1338.907,"endTime":1341.768,"body":"weird k- the Philippines, there's a huge LDS community in"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1341.768,"endTime":1342.907,"body":"the Philippines."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1343.436,"endTime":1345.866,"body":"In Hawaii, I know it's America, but in Hawaii, there's also a"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1345.866,"endTime":1348.597,"body":"huge LDS community there, too. You're like, \"How is this...?\""},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1348.597,"endTime":1351.307,"body":"In Brazil. So there's, it's like these odd countries you would"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1351.307,"endTime":1354.047,"body":"never figure out why. Conversion, by the way, let's"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1354.047,"endTime":1355.987,"body":"just talk about conversion for a second, 'cause I think they're a"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1355.987,"endTime":1358.928,"body":"great example of something that evangelicals need to"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1358.928,"endTime":1363.207,"body":"consider very carefully. So, you know, if you're an LDS male and"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1363.207,"endTime":1365.127,"body":"you turn 18, graduate high school, you're supposed to go on"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1365.127,"endTime":1369.027,"body":"mission for two years. You know, somewhere, in America or even"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1369.027,"endTime":1371.807,"body":"across the world, you wear those black pants and the white shirt"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1371.807,"endTime":1374.867,"body":"and the tie, you walk door to door, you try to get people to"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1374.867,"endTime":1378.527,"body":"convert to, Mormonism. You know what the average number of"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1378.527,"endTime":1379.117,"body":"converts"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1379.867,"endTime":1383.467,"body":"one of those missionaries gets in their two-year mission? The"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1383.467,"endTime":1388.247,"body":"answer is about two lifelong converts. So they work 40 hours"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1388.247,"endTime":1392.367,"body":"a week for two full years, and they manage two conversions"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1392.367,"endTime":1395.288,"body":"total. So you can hire a missionary for your church right"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1395.288,"endTime":1398.467,"body":"now, pay them a wage, and send them out to work full-time, and"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1398.467,"endTime":1401.867,"body":"if there's one of them, they will bring one convert back in,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1401.867,"endTime":1406.487,"body":"in 365 days. Or you could have four kids, you know, have a"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1406.487,"endTime":1409.288,"body":"family in your community have four kids, and you keep all of"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1409.288,"endTime":1411.987,"body":"them in church. So which one's easier? You know, I would say"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1411.987,"endTime":1415.747,"body":"conversion is hard and retention is easy. I think they're the"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1415.747,"endTime":1418.367,"body":"prime example. But one of the reasons they're still doing so"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1418.367,"endTime":1420.487,"body":"well in America is 'cause they have a really high fertility"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1420.487,"endTime":1424.067,"body":"rate, and they manage to keep, a significant portion of the"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1424.067,"endTime":1426.428,"body":"children who are raised in the Latter-day Saint faith. That is"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1426.428,"endTime":1428.946,"body":"how they're growing in America. It's not really converting new"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1428.946,"endTime":1429.547,"body":"people in."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1431.707,"endTime":1434.768,"body":"Now, would the same thing, Ryan, be true of Muslims?"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1435.592,"endTime":1438.031,"body":"... So Muslims are interesting because they're so"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1438.031,"endTime":1441.751,"body":"young. I think people don't realize this about, Muslims. A"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1441.751,"endTime":1446.051,"body":"majority of Muslim adults in America today are under the age"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1446.051,"endTime":1449.432,"body":"of 35 years old. They are a very young-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1449.432,"endTime":1449.451,"body":"Wow."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1449.451,"endTime":1451.491,"body":"Like, for instance, the average age of a Muslim in"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1451.491,"endTime":1454.192,"body":"America is around 30 years old. Among evangelical, it's like s-"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1454.192,"endTime":1457.372,"body":"it's close to 60. I think it's 58 years old now. So they're"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1457.372,"endTime":1460.491,"body":"very young. Immigration helped them a lot, obviously, in"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1460.491,"endTime":1463.011,"body":"America over the last 10 or 15 years, although that's probably"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1463.011,"endTime":1465.932,"body":"changing over the next 10 or 15 years. But you also have to"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1465.932,"endTime":1468.852,"body":"understand, you know, the rate of growth of Islam in America"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1468.852,"endTime":1472.951,"body":"was, it was about 0.5% in 2007, and today it's just a little"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1472.951,"endTime":1476.632,"body":"over 1%. So they grew a half a percentage point in about 15"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1476.632,"endTime":1480.592,"body":"years. There's no reason to think they're gonna be even 5%"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1480.592,"endTime":1483.811,"body":"of the population in 50 years. That growth rate's gonna slow"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1483.811,"endTime":1486.852,"body":"because the fertility rate here will match our fertility rate."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1486.852,"endTime":1489.011,"body":"They're not gonna have eight kids. They're gonna have two"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1489.011,"endTime":1492.332,"body":"kids, like Americans typically have. And by the way, I know"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1492.332,"endTime":1495.172,"body":"everyone likes to talk about, like, Dearborn, Michigan. The"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1495.172,"endTime":1499.291,"body":"share-- There's not a single state in the union where Muslims"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1499.291,"endTime":1502.892,"body":"make up more than 5% of the population today, and there's"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1502.892,"endTime":1504.672,"body":"actually only two or three states where they make up at"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1504.672,"endTime":1508.692,"body":"least 3% of the population. So, you know, there are Muslims in"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1508.692,"endTime":1511.511,"body":"America, and they do sort of congregate in certain areas like"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1511.511,"endTime":1514.571,"body":"Dearborn, Michigan. But even in places like that, the only place"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1514.571,"endTime":1517.571,"body":"they're really the majority is one city in Michigan, Dearborn."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1517.571,"endTime":1520.271,"body":"Most other places, they're, they're a very small minority."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1521.811,"endTime":1524.612,"body":"What about the secular kind of community in the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1524.612,"endTime":1527.751,"body":"US? And by that, I'm referring to people who identify as"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1527.751,"endTime":1528.251,"body":"atheist"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1528.811,"endTime":1530.932,"body":"or agnostic. What's the number and kind of what's their"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1530.932,"endTime":1532.531,"body":"trajectory for the future?"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1532.531,"endTime":1535.471,"body":"Mm-hmm. So about-- So today in America, somewhere"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1535.471,"endTime":1538.192,"body":"between 5% and 6% of Americans identify as atheist, and about"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1538.192,"endTime":1541.352,"body":"the same share say they're agnostic. So, you know, if you"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1541.352,"endTime":1544.152,"body":"put 100 Americans in a room, 10 to 12 of them were atheist,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1544.152,"endTime":1547.852,"body":"agnostic. It's actually... It's a group that's, that's big-ish."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1547.852,"endTime":1550.011,"body":"I mean, they're probably the same size as the mainline is"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1550.011,"endTime":1551.862,"body":"right now, interestingly enough. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1552.592,"endTime":1555.832,"body":"but the trajectory of their growth has actually slowed down"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1555.832,"endTime":1559.031,"body":"really significantly over the last five years or so, even"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1559.031,"endTime":1562.531,"body":"longer than that. I mean, we might have seen a 1% increase in"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1562.531,"endTime":1565.371,"body":"the share of Americans who are atheist, agnostic today versus"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1565.371,"endTime":1569.511,"body":"2018. So you really don't see a whole lot of growth there. And"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1569.511,"endTime":1572.092,"body":"even if you look at, like, the youngest adult Americans, you"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1572.092,"endTime":1574.881,"body":"know, in the entire population, about 12% of people are atheist,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1574.881,"endTime":1578.852,"body":"agnostic. Among 18 to 22-year-olds, it's only 14%. So,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1578.852,"endTime":1581.432,"body":"like, they're not-- We're not gonna see a future in America"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1581.432,"endTime":1584.711,"body":"where, like, let's say, 25 or 30% of Americans are atheist,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1584.711,"endTime":1587.332,"body":"agnostic, unless something just changes dramatically in the data"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1587.332,"endTime":1589.991,"body":"that we've not seen before. I mean, they're probably gonna end"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1589.991,"endTime":1593.832,"body":"up being somewhere between 13% and 15% of the population, even"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1593.832,"endTime":1596.852,"body":"30 or 40 years from now. So, like, I think in a lot of ways,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1596.852,"endTime":1599.932,"body":"the evangelicals sort of make a boogeyman, you know, out of"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1599.932,"endTime":1602.271,"body":"atheist, agnostics. Like, \"Oh, they're all out-\" th- yeah,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1602.271,"endTime":1606.392,"body":"like, they do exist, and like I said, but for every one"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1606.392,"endTime":1610.451,"body":"atheist/agnostic, there are six Christians in America. So"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1610.451,"endTime":1613.912,"body":"they're there, but they're still very much outnumbered, by"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1613.912,"endTime":1615.692,"body":"Christians in America."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1615.692,"endTime":1618.852,"body":"Ryan, let me ask you to put on your prophetic hat"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1618.852,"endTime":1622.811,"body":"for a moment. What, if you had, if you had to give your,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1622.811,"endTime":1626.311,"body":"your most educated guess at it, what do you think the religious"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1626.311,"endTime":1630.112,"body":"landscape is gonna look like 30 years from now?"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1630.112,"endTime":1631.872,"body":"Yeah, that's, that's a good question, and I"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1631.872,"endTime":1634.132,"body":"think a lot of it... If you would've asked me five years"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1634.132,"endTime":1635.511,"body":"ago, I'd have given you a different answer than what I'm"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1635.511,"endTime":1638.971,"body":"gonna give you right now, 'cause the nones had continued to rise,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1638.971,"endTime":1641.332,"body":"five years ago, basically without stopping, just continued"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1641.332,"endTime":1643.852,"body":"up. Trajectory would continue to go, and we really"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1643.852,"endTime":1646.251,"body":"didn't know where the nones were gonna stop. You know, we didn't"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1646.251,"endTime":1648.352,"body":"know if it was gonna be 50% of the population, 60% of the"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1648.352,"endTime":1652.311,"body":"population. So actually now what we kinda know with a little more"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1652.311,"endTime":1655.311,"body":"clarity is that among Gen Z, the share who are non-religious is"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1655.311,"endTime":1657.791,"body":"somewhere between 42% and 45%."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1658.751,"endTime":1661.551,"body":"And the share of Christians is probably about 45-- probably"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1661.551,"endTime":1664.971,"body":"about the same share, 45% to 50%, maybe. So what I think the"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1664.971,"endTime":1668.771,"body":"future's gonna look like, more than likely, is probably 40% to"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1668.771,"endTime":1673.372,"body":"45% non-religious, and then 40% to 45% Christian, and then the"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1673.372,"endTime":1675.551,"body":"other 10% are gonna be all these other groups we talked about-"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1675.551,"endTime":1678.971,"body":"Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, Latter-day Saints, you"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1678.971,"endTime":1681.291,"body":"know, the Wiccans, the Jedis. All those people are gonna make"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1681.291,"endTime":1684.301,"body":"up the last 10%. So in the future, I mean, I don't think"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1684.301,"endTime":1688.311,"body":"we're gonna get to a place in my lifetime where a majority of"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1688.311,"endTime":1692.29,"body":"Americans claim no religious affiliation. I think actually,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1692.29,"endTime":1694.951,"body":"Christians and the nones will probably be in pretty"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1694.951,"endTime":1698.311,"body":"statistical parity with each other in 30 or 40 years."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1698.311,"endTime":1699.991,"body":"You've mentioned the Jedis twice-"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1699.991,"endTime":1700.001,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1700.001,"endTime":1702.031,"body":"... So I've gotta ask, what percentage of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1702.031,"endTime":1704.051,"body":"Americans [chuckles] identify as Jedi?"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1704.051,"endTime":1706.932,"body":"Oh, it's like, it's a fraction of a percentage."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1706.932,"endTime":1706.951,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1706.951,"endTime":1709.251,"body":"Like, if you, if you... The way that works is,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1709.251,"endTime":1709.642,"body":"like, you get the-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1709.642,"endTime":1711.152,"body":"I thought you were just throwing that in as a joke."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1711.152,"endTime":1712.332,"body":"Yeah, 'cause everyone laughs when I use the"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1712.332,"endTime":1715.352,"body":"word Jedi, 'cause it's like, \"Ah, Jedis!\" Actually, in, like,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1715.352,"endTime":1717.582,"body":"New Zealand, they're a recognized religious group now,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1717.582,"endTime":1719.491,"body":"'cause there's enough of people who say they're Jedis."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1719.491,"endTime":1719.832,"body":"Oh, huh."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1719.832,"endTime":1721.571,"body":"But, but so there's this category called something"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1721.571,"endTime":1722.172,"body":"else."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1722.172,"endTime":1722.372,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1722.372,"endTime":1724.392,"body":"And you can, like, write in a box what you are, and"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1724.392,"endTime":1727.251,"body":"you get the weirdest answers in that something else category,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1727.251,"endTime":1727.442,"body":"right?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1727.442,"endTime":1727.461,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1727.461,"endTime":1730.271,"body":"You get, like Jedis. You get also, like,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1730.271,"endTime":1734.511,"body":"ancient alien theorists, like vegetarians. One dude said, \"I'm"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1734.511,"endTime":1736.791,"body":"an atheist, but my wife's Episcopalian. I go to church"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1736.791,"endTime":1739.231,"body":"with her.\" And I'm like, \"Oh, man, like, I don't even know"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1739.231,"endTime":1740.731,"body":"what to do with you in this situation-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1740.731,"endTime":1741.001,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1741.001,"endTime":1742.231,"body":"'cause you're atheist, but you go to Episc-\""},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1742.231,"endTime":1744.791,"body":"You know, like... And, and what's funny about those and"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1744.791,"endTime":1747.031,"body":"kind of sad about those is a lot of them will say they're"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1747.031,"endTime":1750.172,"body":"Baptists or Pentecostal or non-denominational when the"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1750.172,"endTime":1753.352,"body":"first option on the actual question was Protestant. They"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1753.352,"endTime":1755.791,"body":"don't know they're Protestant. So actually, there's a lot of"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1755.791,"endTime":1757.912,"body":"people who call themselves something else that are really"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1757.912,"endTime":1758.422,"body":"Protestants-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1758.422,"endTime":1758.711,"body":"Interesting"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1758.711,"endTime":1760.912,"body":"... And just don't know it because we don't use the"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1760.912,"endTime":1764.211,"body":"word Protestant a whole lot. So one of my big hobby horses"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1764.211,"endTime":1767.271,"body":"recently is convincing survey firms to include a, another"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1767.271,"endTime":1770.291,"body":"option called Christian, other than above, on the survey to"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1770.291,"endTime":1772.692,"body":"kind of capture those people who don't know what the word"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1772.692,"endTime":1774.951,"body":"Protestant means but are, in fact, Protestants."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1775.991,"endTime":1777.751,"body":"Ryan, final question for you. You, you work"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1777.751,"endTime":1780.692,"body":"with a lot of different religious groups and obviously"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1780.692,"endTime":1784.051,"body":"have your own religious beliefs. You were a pastor for a while,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1784.051,"endTime":1787.791,"body":"and you talked about, moving on from that. But our audience are"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1787.791,"endTime":1789.432,"body":"primarily evangelicals,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1790.092,"endTime":1793.692,"body":"and evangelicals have a range of concerns, but one would be"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1793.692,"endTime":1796.511,"body":"passing on their faith to the next generation, and another"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1796.511,"endTime":1798.531,"body":"would be evangelism."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1798.531,"endTime":1799.092,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1799.092,"endTime":1801.771,"body":"So given our religious landscape, what"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1801.771,"endTime":1807.092,"body":"encouragement would you give to evangelicals, to maybe do those"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1807.092,"endTime":1809.291,"body":"well in the years ahead?"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1809.291,"endTime":1811.779,"body":"Yeah, so the first thing I would say is-... You've"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1811.779,"endTime":1813.94,"body":"gotta understand, evangelicals are actually doing a better job"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1813.94,"endTime":1817.46,"body":"than other groups are. Evangelical retention rate is"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1817.46,"endTime":1820.2,"body":"above 70%, which means you have, you know, there's 10"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1820.2,"endTime":1822.67,"body":"evangelical kids in your church right now, seven of them will"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1822.67,"endTime":1825.559,"body":"still be evangelicals into adulthood, which is actually,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1825.559,"endTime":1827.38,"body":"you know, you think, \"Well, three left.\" That's actually"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1827.38,"endTime":1829.539,"body":"really good, 'cause among Catholics and mainline"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1829.539,"endTime":1833.329,"body":"Protestants, it's closer to 55%. So still doing really"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1833.329,"endTime":1836.48,"body":"well. But I think the key, and this is something you see over"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1836.48,"endTime":1840.4,"body":"and over in the data, is that most non-religious people never"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1840.4,"endTime":1842.94,"body":"were that religious to begin with and were never really"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1842.94,"endTime":1847.039,"body":"raised in religious households. If you raise your kids... You"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1847.039,"endTime":1849.74,"body":"know, I just did a- I just wrote a piece about this. We did a"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1849.74,"endTime":1852.339,"body":"huge survey of nones, 12,000 non-religious Americans. We"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1852.339,"endTime":1854.94,"body":"asked a ton of questions about the religious environment they"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1854.94,"endTime":1857.839,"body":"grew up in, and if you, if you grew up in a household where"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1857.839,"endTime":1861.4,"body":"your mother and your father were both Protestants or Catholics,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1861.4,"endTime":1864.759,"body":"and both of them went to church every week, the chances of you"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1864.759,"endTime":1867.64,"body":"not being a Christian were 13%."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1868.68,"endTime":1872.279,"body":"So, like, if you raise your kid in a religious household, the"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1872.279,"endTime":1875.5,"body":"vast majority of the time, they are going to stay in the way"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1875.5,"endTime":1878.0,"body":"that they were raised. And I think that should actually"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1878.0,"endTime":1880.46,"body":"provide a lot of comfort for a lot of people who are doing"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1880.46,"endTime":1882.48,"body":"those things that we just talked about. They're, they're"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1882.48,"endTime":1884.5,"body":"committed Christians. They're going to church on a regular"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1884.5,"endTime":1887.22,"body":"basis. It- a lot of nones grew up in houses that were"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1887.22,"endTime":1890.599,"body":"marginally religious at best, if not non-religious, and they just"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1890.599,"endTime":1893.579,"body":"never really grabbed onto religion. So I think in many"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1893.579,"endTime":1895.7,"body":"ways, you know, train up a child in the way he will sh- he will"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1895.7,"endTime":1898.079,"body":"go, and when he gets old, he won't depart from you, is, you"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1898.079,"endTime":1900.619,"body":"know, biblical wisdom is actually empirical wisdom,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1900.619,"endTime":1902.4,"body":"statistical wisdom, that it actually does show up in the"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1902.4,"endTime":1903.7,"body":"data that way."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1903.7,"endTime":1905.17,"body":"Well, that is a good word-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1905.17,"endTime":1905.559,"body":"That's very encouraging"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1905.559,"endTime":1908.42,"body":"... To end with. Biblical wisdom is empirical"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1908.42,"endTime":1911.14,"body":"wisdom, and of course, we see that in Deuteronomy 6, when it"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1911.14,"endTime":1914.5,"body":"talks about talking with these things to your kids when you"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1914.5,"endTime":1918.44,"body":"walk along the way, when you lie down, when you get up. So living"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1918.44,"endTime":1922.299,"body":"it out, mentoring it, taking kids to church, prioritizing"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1922.299,"endTime":1923.24,"body":"spiritual things,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1923.839,"endTime":1926.66,"body":"you have a great likelihood of seeing your kids do"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1927.359,"endTime":1930.359,"body":"as well. Ryan, I told you it was the last question, but I do like"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1930.359,"endTime":1932.859,"body":"to let our audience know the kind of book we're talking"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1932.859,"endTime":1937.019,"body":"about. This is an Oxford Press book, and it's a research book,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1937.019,"endTime":1939.579,"body":"isn't it? Who did you write it for?"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1939.579,"endTime":1941.14,"body":"I wrote it for anyone who just wants to know"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1941.14,"endTime":1943.579,"body":"basic answers to questions about religion. You know, they just"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1943.579,"endTime":1945.539,"body":"don't know where to get them from. What, you know, what share"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1945.539,"endTime":1948.5,"body":"of Americans are Muslim? Where are they located geographically?"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1948.5,"endTime":1950.579,"body":"What do Latter-day Saints look like in America? What's the"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1950.579,"endTime":1953.38,"body":"average age of a mainline Protestant, you know? I wrote"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1953.38,"endTime":1956.019,"body":"it to almost be like a reference manual, but I really, what I"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1956.019,"endTime":1959.119,"body":"wanted to do was I wanted to get it assigned in, you know, cl-"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1959.119,"endTime":1961.519,"body":"American religion classes, history classes about American"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1961.519,"endTime":1963.5,"body":"religion- ... Theology class. I want it to be taught in"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1963.5,"endTime":1966.7,"body":"seminaries, 'cause, you know, my big, you know, my big thing now"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1966.7,"endTime":1970.38,"body":"is seminaries will hire people to teach you Greek and Hebrew"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1970.38,"endTime":1974.319,"body":"and Aramaic, but you don't have a sociologist on staff to, like,"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1974.319,"endTime":1977.0,"body":"help your s- you know, seminarians understand what"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1977.0,"endTime":1979.349,"body":"American religion looks like. Where are the soft spots? Where"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1979.349,"endTime":1981.96,"body":"are the growth part- You know, what can we learn from a, from a"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1981.96,"endTime":1985.2,"body":"more sociological perspective? And I hope my books can sort of"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1985.2,"endTime":1988.099,"body":"be introduced in some of those courses to help those students"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":1988.099,"endTime":1990.42,"body":"understand what the world actually looks like."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1990.42,"endTime":1991.9,"body":"Well, you're doing great work. I read your"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1991.9,"endTime":1996.64,"body":"Substack regularly, and somehow you have a knack for just asking"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1996.64,"endTime":1999.64,"body":"the questions that are in the back of my mind, and I go,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1999.64,"endTime":2001.65,"body":"\"Yeah, I've wondered about that,\"-"},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":2001.65,"endTime":2001.65,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2001.65,"endTime":2003.779,"body":"... As it pops up, and I read it. So we will"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2003.779,"endTime":2006.46,"body":"keep having you back as long as you keep producing stuff and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2006.46,"endTime":2008.46,"body":"you're willing to join us. The book, again, is called The"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2008.46,"endTime":2012.799,"body":"American Religious Landscape, and our guest today has been"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2012.799,"endTime":2015.38,"body":"Ryan Burge. Ryan, thanks for coming on."},{"speaker":"Ryan Burge","startTime":2015.38,"endTime":2017.099,"body":"Always a pleasure, guys. Appreciate it."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2017.099,"endTime":2019.2,"body":"This has been an episode of the podcast Think"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2019.2,"endTime":2022.44,"body":"Biblically- Conversations on Faith and Culture. We've got"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2022.44,"endTime":2027.319,"body":"master's programs in person and online in Old Testament, New"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2027.319,"endTime":2030.92,"body":"Testament, marriage and family, philosophy, apologetics, and so"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2030.92,"endTime":2035.42,"body":"much more. Please keep your comments and questions coming."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2035.42,"endTime":2039.98,"body":"You can send them to us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2039.98,"endTime":2043.839,"body":"Whether you enjoyed today's episode or not, please give us a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2043.839,"endTime":2048.079,"body":"rating on your podcast app. We would deeply appreciate it, and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2048.079,"endTime":2049.679,"body":"consider sharing it with a friend."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2049.679,"endTime":2050.92,"body":"Preferably a positive one."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2050.92,"endTime":2052.4,"body":"Yeah, preferably, but you know what?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2052.4,"endTime":2055.48,"body":"We'll take an honest review wherever we can get it, and to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2055.48,"endTime":2059.039,"body":"be honest with you, the each review actually really helps us"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2059.039,"endTime":2061.4,"body":"spread the word to get more people thinking biblically. So"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2061.4,"endTime":2065.699,"body":"we appreciate you listening, and remember, think biblically about"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2065.699,"endTime":2072.338,"body":"everything. [upbeat music]"}]}