Sean McDowell: 0:00

[upbeat music] Is it possible to find hope and healing in the shadow of grief? Our guest today, Talbot professor, Dr. David Keen, personal friend of probably about two decades or so, is the author of a new, honest, heart-wrenching, hopeful, and biblically based book about processing grief after the premature loss of his son, Adam. Dave, I've been looking forward to this for a long time, having seen you walk through the story. Being able to help maybe in a small way with the book, and just have wanted our audience to hear your story and account of this for a long time. So I can only imagine it's not easy to tell the story every time, but thanks for writing the book, and thanks for coming on.

Dave Keehn: 0:46

It is a real pleasure to be with you. Sean, I've known you, like you said, for a very long time, and, to think back to our coffee meetups that we used to have way back when-

Sean McDowell: 0:58

We did

Dave Keehn: 0:58

... To now, we've come a long way, baby, let's say that.

Sean McDowell: 1:01

That was when I was teaching high school-

Dave Keehn: 1:02

Yeah

Sean McDowell: 1:02

... Full-time before-

Dave Keehn: 1:04

Yeah

Sean McDowell: 1:04

... Teaching here at Biola and Talbot, having your amazing daughter in class, and our kids were in the same class, going way back, so-

Dave Keehn: 1:12

Yep

Sean McDowell: 1:12

... All that is to say, this is our podcast, which gets academic, but it's, it's personal.

Dave Keehn: 1:18

It is.

Sean McDowell: 1:18

And obviously far more for you than it is for me. And let's just start with the first line in your book. You start with the words, "June 8th, 2022, changed my life forever."

Dave Keehn: 1:33

Yeah, that is the day that we got the tragic news that our son Adam had passed away. It was sudden, it was unexpected. It was due to a brain aneurysm erupting in his brain. He was a youth pastor at the time. He didn't show up to a staff meeting. His church got worried, started asking around. His wife had already been, had left earlier to go to work. She got their messages late, came home to find him, unresponsive. I actually, was out, as a chaplain for the fire department in Orange County.

Sean McDowell: 2:13

Mm-hmm.

Dave Keehn: 2:13

That was one of my fun things I get to do, and I was actually with an engine company, riding on a, on a fire truck. And, when I got the call from my daughter-in-law that she... Her words were, "I think Adam has died."

Sean McDowell: 2:30

Oh.

Dave Keehn: 2:31

And in my mind, I didn't even think she meant actual death. Like, in my mind, I thought,"He looks like he's died." Maybe had a seizure, maybe had a stroke-

Sean McDowell: 2:43

Of course, yeah

Dave Keehn: 2:43

... Something. And so I literally just said, "Hey, call 911. We'll get there as soon as we can." And I told the, the engine company we were out and about, and they immediately took me back to the station, lights and sirens, took me back as fast as possible. I called my wife on the way and said,"Something's happened to Adam." And it wasn't until-... We were about to leave in the car to drive the hour distance, we got a second call. And it was our daughter-in-law's sister, and I could just hear the wailing in the background and she just told us that, yeah, Adam had passed. And, you know, when I told Debbie that he's gone, she just immediately, you know, collapsed- ... In our garage. We had called, some really close friends, and they had dropped everything, and were on their way over to go with us to Adam. And so they met us, they drove us the hour distance. And it was just, one of those days that just rips what you thought and were planning. Adam was a young youth pastor, married for about two years. He was three weeks away from the birth of his daughter.

Sean McDowell: 4:10

Ugh.

Dave Keehn: 4:11

So everything that you thought, just isn't anymore. And it was... I don't know if it was ironic, I don't know if it was just human nature, but literally the night before was one of our best days. We were celebrating my wife's birthday at Disneyland with our daughter and her husband, and one of our granddaughters, our first granddaughter, and it was literally why I went from the highest of highs to the lowest of lows.

Sean McDowell: 4:39

Praise the Lord, [exhales] that last day was positive. Yeah, I could only imagine if it was one of those moments that we don't enjoy, how different this process would be. Tell us maybe a little bit about the hours and days, what they were like after hearing this news, because you mention in the book, it's impossible to prepare for such a tragedy as this. Hearing you say this, in my mind, I'm thinking, "How would I respond if somebody said that about one of my kids?" And honestly, it's academic, as you know, until you go through it.

Dave Keehn: 5:15

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 5:16

So are there any... Well, just tell us about those hours afterwards, and what that was like, hearing that news.

Dave Keehn: 5:25

Yeah, I think in the challenge of the moment, I was torn in two directions. One, as the dad, the husband, I was thinking of my family. How do I help my family? How do I-... Take those next steps? How do we help Adam's wife, who's now alone and three weeks away from a birth? How do we, how do we step into the needs that are just overwhelming? But at the same time, I was, individually-... Almost paralyzed because of, not knowing how to process that grief at that point. It was just, I was in a numb state. I was in disbelief and shock. And, and so I would say those first couple days, God's grace came through people just giving us space to be. We spent a lot of time with our daughter-in-law and with her family. We spent a lot of time just with our own immediate family, kinda holding each other. We had some family friends, give us their home in the area-

Sean McDowell: 6:49

Oh, wow

Dave Keehn: 6:49

... Where he lived, and-

Sean McDowell: 6:51

Wow

Dave Keehn: 6:51

... They literally packed up and left. So little gifts like that allowed us to just be, and that's the only thing we could do, is we really had no plan. We had, you know... Eventually there were some decisions that had to be made about a memorial service, and who was gonna do it, and where it was gonna be, and some of those logistics that, yeah, they have to be decided eventually.

Sean McDowell: 7:15

Sure.

Dave Keehn: 7:15

But, but I would say for those first couple of days, there wasn't anything to do but to cry and to be together and to remember the good-

Sean McDowell: 7:26

Sure

Dave Keehn: 7:26

... That Adam is-

Sean McDowell: 7:27

Yeah

Dave Keehn: 7:27

... And to celebrate little things and laugh as we told silly stories about Adam growing up. And, and there was, You know, we saw God's goodness looking back. In the moment, it didn't feel like it, but looking back, we could say,"Okay, God was present. He was holding us up. He was walking us through." But in the- but in those moments, there really isn't anything other than to, than to breathe-... Is just to keep breathing.

Sean McDowell: 7:56

Step- literally, just step-by-step-

Dave Keehn: 7:58

Yeah

Sean McDowell: 7:58

... Moment by moment.

Dave Keehn: 8:00

It literally was a-

Sean McDowell: 8:01

What would you say to yourself if you were to go back before that day? Kinda knowing what you know now, seeing what you see now, in some ways, this book is about what you would say to yourself or somebody else to walk through this- ... And we're gonna get to some of that.

Dave Keehn: 8:17

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 8:17

But what would you maybe say to yourself in advance of something like this?

Dave Keehn: 8:24

I would say, in all honesty, even as a pastor, that I took, the gift of each day almost too shallow. Like, I almost lived in the assumption of tomorrow. And, and knowing, like, yes, we have an ordained amount of days, Scripture tells us, and knowing, like, you know, we are looking forward to what Christ's return will be at any moment, so that we do live in this anticipation of there'll be a change, there'll be something different coming. But I think even as a pastor, I just assumed, like, I would have tomorrow, and I just assumed that because I was a Christian and I was living life God's way, that my life wouldn't have significant challenge. It would have some struggles, but they would be the struggles like prayer and accountability could help you overcome. And this was a challenge that was so much more than I thought I could endure.

Sean McDowell: 9:31

One more question before we get into the book. I remember when I first became a dad, people would say things like, "Your preaching is different." You start thinking about the fatherhood of God differently. Does losing a son make you think about God and His sacrifice for us differently?

Dave Keehn: 9:55

It, it made me rethink God's, God's involvement in our journey, in the sense like... Because I nec- I didn't necessarily willingly give Adam up.

Sean McDowell: 10:10

That's right.

Dave Keehn: 10:11

So I don't know if I went to that level of, "God, thank you, that You willingly gave Your Son to die- ... For me," but the reality of God is the only one who walks with me to that level of kinda getting me and understanding me. God is the only one that I could turn to, even in though I didn't understand His ways, even though I was even angry at why He would allow this-

Sean McDowell: 10:44

Sure

Dave Keehn: 10:44

... To know that the reality of Heaven and what He has done for me, sustained me. In the book, I do talk a lot about this, my journey of faith has definitely been impacted, and I tell people, m- I liken myself to the dad in Mark 9 that, had a son who was demon-possessed. And he goes to the disciples and say, "Hey, you know, try to help me," and they can't, and so he goes to Jesus and says, "If you can," and Jesus is like,"Everything is possible for him who believes." And the dad, in the same breath, literally says, "I believe. Help my unbelief."

Sean McDowell: 11:29

That's right.

Dave Keehn: 11:30

And Jesus doesn't rebuke him-... Doesn't challenge him for unbelief. He simply heals the son, and I think that's what I've discovered, is that within me, there are certainties I know about God even greater, and there are things that I don't understand about God- ... That I have surrendered to say, "I still trust you." And I think that's been the change of my journey.

Sean McDowell: 11:55

What was the decision like? Do you remember the first moment that's like, "You know what? I wanna write a book," because this is your first book, right?

Dave Keehn: 12:02

Correct.

Sean McDowell: 12:02

So that's not like, "I've written books,"[chuckles] so writing another book is just different than deciding to write a first book.

Dave Keehn: 12:08

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 12:08

Not better or worse, just different.

Dave Keehn: 12:10

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 12:10

Like, it's a much bigger barrier to cross and be like, "Okay, I'm doing this."

Dave Keehn: 12:14

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 12:15

... What was that moment like, and was the process of writing it healing? Was it hard? Like, what was that process for an issue so personal like this like for you?

Dave Keehn: 12:26

Yeah, I've been encouraged to write a book for a while, and I just didn't think I had anything new to say. And Debbie and I, in our own journey with grief, noticed that our experience with grief was changing-... That we weren't going back to normal, and we weren't over it. We, you know, I don't think there is that place that you're saying, "Oh, now everything's good. I'm, I'm okay." There's still- we were still experiencing grief in certain ways, and that's where we started calling it the shadow. Like, we're having a good day. You know, we're enjoying each other. We're at worship. But when you stop and you look around, it's like there's something missing. There's something impacting our experience, and it's just the reality that Adam's not with us. It's this constant that we're just walking in, and so we started talking about this experience separately. In other words, like, we were each recognizing this separately, but then at the same time, we are noticing that we were okay. We, we were still grieving, but we were having greater capacities, and then we started understanding, like, God's doing a work here as we've put our hope in Him and in heaven, that because that has become central, a central focal for us, focal point for us, that we're like, there's something unique going on that I haven't heard people talk about in this growing capacity to do life. And looking back on it now, I think there's a clinical term of, like, post-traumatic stress growth that is-

Sean McDowell: 14:02

Oh

Dave Keehn: 14:02

... Is a whole new psychological field-

Sean McDowell: 14:04

Okay

Dave Keehn: 14:04

... That people are learning about, and I didn't know about it when I started this process, that people are discovering, coming out of grief, they're, they're having growth. But it's, it's not necessarily the same thing that we are talking about with the hope because of Jesus, but there is some correlation, I think, to that, if you wanna think academically. But we also started [chuckles] talking about... Man, I wish those in our church that I was serving knew how to come alongside us better.

Sean McDowell: 14:36

Mm-hmm.

Dave Keehn: 14:36

That as much as the church loved us, and they did the best- ... They could, there were things that they would say or desires that they'd have of us that we just couldn't meet or that weren't helpful, and-... And so the desire to write the book actually came out of the desire to express to people who are going through grief, "You might be experiencing some of these same things." "Here are some things that we did." It's not a self-help book. It's not, like, the expert manual for grief. It's just like, "This is our journey. This is what we've experienced and learned. If it's helpful, great. If not, toss it." But a lot of it is written so that others would understand the journey of grief and know how to come alongside and best respond to the moments that are evolving and changing for that person.

Sean McDowell: 15:21

Was it part of the healing process, working through this? Like, how would you frame that in the healing process itself?

Dave Keehn: 15:27

Oh, definitely.

Sean McDowell: 15:27

Yeah.

Dave Keehn: 15:27

I think, I love talking about Adam, even as difficult as it was, even moments ago, to tell his story- When I tell the whole story of his birth, his life, his ministry, man, there's, there's such joy in that-

Sean McDowell: 15:41

Oh, yeah

Dave Keehn: 15:41

... And there's such healing in that. And so yes, we- as we wrote the story of our experience, we actually left chapter one, which is Adam's story, to be the last thing we wrote, so that when we, when we started the writing process-

Sean McDowell: 15:59

Interesting

Dave Keehn: 15:59

... We actually kinda started talking and thinking, "Okay, what did we do those first days? What did we do those first months? How did we grow over time? What was best helpful?" And we started to recognize these different stages, not the five stages of grief that have been identified-

Sean McDowell: 16:16

Yeah

Dave Keehn: 16:16

... Which are more about bad diagnoses, not death. We just recognized, hey, we were reacting. Now we're responding. Now we're living, you know, in different ways, and so that's really how we shaped the book, and because I think we were walking through what we did, there was, a real healing to say, yeah, we felt like we grieved well. We, we talked a lot about, like, we wanted to steward Adam's death well- ... And not just make this event that was, you know, so life-altering, but we don't ever wanna touch it. We actually said, "How do we steward this situation?" And so the writing actually was very healing.

Sean McDowell: 17:01

Good.

Dave Keehn: 17:01

I mean, there was definitely a lot of tears that were shared.

Sean McDowell: 17:03

Oh, [chuckles] I can only imagine.

Dave Keehn: 17:05

And then, and then now, honestly, we left chapter one to the end, and we actually wrote it over a week together when we were- ... In Hawaii and had- ... Space and time- ... Just to be together and- ... To recount the whole story of Adam, from his miraculous birth to those last days.

Sean McDowell: 17:25

Pastor Greg Laurie called you shortly after Adam passed. You know, this is totally different, but about two and a half years ago, I just went through a pretty serious of... It was about three months of just miserable physical pain. And a pastor, I won't mention his name, but like Greg Laurie, just reached out to me, and I wrote down some of the things he said. It was meaningful. So the moment you mentioned Greg, I was like, wow, this must be a theme of, like, [chuckles] pastors reaching out when somebody's in pain, and their words are powerful, and this was transformative for you. What did he say, and why were his words so impactful?

Dave Keehn: 18:02

So, a friend of mine who knew Greg passed on our story, passed on our number, and that's, that's how, 'cause I have never- ... Met Greg, and I don't even know if Greg would remember that he made this phone call [chuckles] three years ago.

Sean McDowell: 18:15

[laughs]

Dave Keehn: 18:16

But it happened pretty quickly after Adam passed. And, and his words were, both encouraging-... But like a forewarning.

Sean McDowell: 18:27

Oh, okay.

Dave Keehn: 18:28

That he wanted me to understand that as a pastor, you're not- you don't get the opportunity to grieve privately only. That, that I really noticed how public our grief was, in the sense that everybody was watching us, even though we were still... Had kinda distanced ourself from the church. We took a leave of absence from our church. We still had people wanting to know how we're doing from our church. We, our- when we came back after two months off, I didn't realize that because Adam was never a part of the church I was on staff at, he, you know, he was someone that they heard through my preaching and my stories-

Sean McDowell: 19:08

Mm-hmm.

Dave Keehn: 19:09

But I came back, and I realized that the whole church had been in grief. And so what he was trying to help me understand is, "Your church is going to be grieving what has happened to you because they care so much about you, and so how you-" "... Care for your church," but in a reciprocal way. He wanted me to be aware that-

Sean McDowell: 19:31

Yeah

Dave Keehn: 19:32

... There is gonna be some asks of me in that, and that, and just to realize that's the role. He did give me a lot of comfort. I mean, and to know that this tragedy, is the worst thing, and God is gonna walk with you through it. He, you know, there were, there was, you know, just the fact that he would spend an hour with me on the phone and talk.

Sean McDowell: 19:54

Spent an hour with you.

Dave Keehn: 19:55

It was-

Sean McDowell: 19:55

Did he-

Dave Keehn: 19:55

It was, it was a longer conversation.

Sean McDowell: 19:56

Did he lose a son or daughter or family member?

Dave Keehn: 19:57

He lost... And that was the reason-

Sean McDowell: 19:58

Okay

Dave Keehn: 19:58

... He called me, 'cause he had lost-

Sean McDowell: 19:59

Okay

Dave Keehn: 20:00

... A child, an- ... An adult child. And so some of the forewarnings were like, "Hey, this is some of the things that are gonna happen." And it was, it was helpful because it helped me understand what could be, you know? And, and understanding, like, there's gonna be changes between you and the relationships you have with people. Because, you know, Adam was the reason you were together, and now Adam's not there, so even changes with our in-laws from Adam's side, changes that-

Sean McDowell: 20:26

Oh, gosh

Dave Keehn: 20:26

... You know, we wouldn't want to see happen, but he's just saying, "Hey, be prepared. These are some-" "... Of the things that may happen." And so it was very loving in the sense that it wasn't just, "Hey, Dave, you know, I'm sorry," you know? 'Cause he didn't know me. He just-

Sean McDowell: 20:40

Yeah

Dave Keehn: 20:40

... As another dad, I was now part of this awful club-... That he and I both belonged to, along with many others that I've met since, that of dads that have lost their kids. And, there's a challenge, especially as when they're an adult, and they're married, and it impacts your relationship with your grandkids, and it imp- and so he was just saying, "Dave, I just, I want you to be prepared." And it was, you know, it was one of those kind of things where you're like, "Wow, I didn't even think about that." And it wasn't the downer that, you know, you think about. It was just, it felt like a very loving g- mentor coming alongside and say, "I'm so sorry. Here's some things to think about for right now, and just be prepared, if this happens, you're not the only one that this has happened to- ... That these are changes that are gonna-... Could potentially come," and,

Sean McDowell: 21:33

And you go into it, a good amount of that, in your book. I don't wanna steal all the thunder, 'cause I want[chuckles] people to get a copy and share it with somebody, but you mentioned earlier that there's some helpful things people said and did, and let's just say some things that were probably well-intentioned-

Dave Keehn: 21:49

Yeah

Sean McDowell: 21:49

... But less than helpful [chuckles] is the only charitable way to put it. In fact, you said in here that, sadly, sometimes the two of you felt really judged on top of going through this. Give us a sense of positive and negative and what you mean by that.

Dave Keehn: 22:05

Well, as far as being judged, I'll take that first, and then we can get into other aspects of people said or did. But I... This is part of that, what I think Greg was getting at, is because you're now the pastor, right, and your faith is supposed to be exemplary-... To your congregation, and if you're authentic with your journey- And I really, I mean, I confessed to our, my church. I said, "I'm sorry. I've made, you know, surrendering your life to Jesus too easy." Because I would say-

Sean McDowell: 22:38

Wow

Dave Keehn: 22:38

... When people came to me with struggles, "Oh, just give it to God."

Sean McDowell: 22:41

[laughs]

Dave Keehn: 22:42

Well, how do you give your child, this, the point of like, "Hey, God, it's okay. My son is no longer here- ... And it doesn't make any sense to me, because it was a brain aneurysm, that you created him with this weak blood vessel," and so for me to be authentic in our journey, for me to be grieving publicly, the missing, and not to celebrate as much the life he now has in Heaven, I think those are where I- some of the judgment came in of, like, people like, "Well," you know... Like, we, this is one of the painful statements. Someone actually said to us, "Why are you crying? He's in Heaven."

Sean McDowell: 23:15

Oh, gosh.

Dave Keehn: 23:17

And-

Sean McDowell: 23:17

I just can't imagine. [chuckles] I just-

Dave Keehn: 23:19

And I can understand because this is someone that, you know, maybe lost a spouse who- ... In their older years, and, you know, their spouse is in Heaven, and that was what gave them joy and comfort. But as a dad who was looking forward to so much with his young adult son, that wasn't- ... Where we were.

Sean McDowell: 23:38

Yeah.

Dave Keehn: 23:39

You know, and so that's where, I mean, like, some people were judging us as, "Well, you must have a lack of faith or a lack of- ... Interest in Heaven, or" and I, that'd be the complete opposite, I'd say now, is all I can think about is the joy of Heaven, and- ... And that's where our hope is. And that's where we actually end the book, by talking- ... About the reality of Heaven, and it's just the journey to get to there is not simple or easy.

Sean McDowell: 24:06

That's helpful. I wanna get to the question about Heaven, 'cause it's... We'll end this lecture with that, but also, you end the book there, I think appropriately so. Will you talk about the impact of secondary loss? What do you mean by secondary loss, and what's the impact of that?

Dave Keehn: 24:21

Yeah, so take my own life, for example, um-... It's so much more for Adam's wife, but for me. So I didn't just lose my son, and, like, we could hang out, and talk, and have a friendship, but then I lose the future grandchildren, that they would've had many more than just one child. I lose access to a grandchild that, you know, if Adam was around, we'd have a lot more togetherness, where now it's- there's other challenges working through. You lose the what could have been. And so that's just me, right? You know, if it... If you lose your spouse, you don't just lose a husband or a wife, you don't just lose your intimacy partner, but you might lose income, you might lose security, you might lose- ... You know, your identity. You know, where, who invites you- ... Into circles of friends. You know, those things change. And so that's where it's not just, you didn't just lose a son. There's so much more when you say, "I lost my child," you know? And, and there's an impact on that, and I think that's where those secondary losses you don't see. In other words, like, you might look at me and say, "Well, you lost your son, and you're three years ago, and so you're not broken by grief," as much as this interview might indicate I am. [laughs]

Sean McDowell: 25:46

[laughs]

Dave Keehn: 25:46

But, I mean, m- for most part, I'm a happy-go-lucky guy-

Sean McDowell: 25:50

Yes, you are

Dave Keehn: 25:50

... And so-

Sean McDowell: 25:51

For sure

Dave Keehn: 25:51

... You might look at me, and on the outside, my initial- ... Loss of a son is, looks one way- ... But when you then- ... Start to think about all the things, like Adam was doing ministry, and I, we had dreams of doing things together in ministry, and- ... You know, opportunities to, you know, really see growth in him to those next levels. And those are things that- ... You just can't look and see within me when you say, "Oh, Dave lost a son." But those are what I mean by secondary losses. There is, it's below the waterline of, like, an iceberg.

Sean McDowell: 26:18

Well, that's probably a lifelong thing, right? As you hit different stages, like, "Oh, my goodness, my son would've been here," as you see a father with his son. Like, that is now a new normal in your life-

Dave Keehn: 26:29

Very much so

Sean McDowell: 26:30

... Forever-

Dave Keehn: 26:30

Yeah

Sean McDowell: 26:30

... In a sense.

Dave Keehn: 26:31

You, you grieve what would've been. And it's actually harder, I think, to grieve the what would've been, because I have pictures of my son at these different stages of his growth, and so I can go back and look at those, and celebrate those, and remember those, right?

Sean McDowell: 26:46

Yeah.

Dave Keehn: 26:47

I have no idea what would've been, and so you're-... Constantly thinking like, "Oh, I wish... We probably would've been doing that. We probably would've been doing that," and that's where your grief kind of wells up.

Sean McDowell: 26:58

That make, that makes sense. You talk about a letter you wrote to your church when you returned. So why a letter, and what'd you say, and insofar as you're comfortable sharing-

Dave Keehn: 27:09

Oh, yeah

Sean McDowell: 27:10

... On that one?

Dave Keehn: 27:11

Well, and this is one of the things that I- that came out of that conversation with Greg, was to prepare them-... 'cause we had literally-

Sean McDowell: 27:18

He said to write a letter? That was the advice.

Dave Keehn: 27:19

He just said, "Prepare your church."

Sean McDowell: 27:21

Okay.

Dave Keehn: 27:21

And

Sean McDowell: 27:21

In some fashion.

Dave Keehn: 27:22

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 27:22

Okay.

Dave Keehn: 27:23

And when Adam passed, we took two months off. Like, our church, a number of people from our church came the distance to Adam's memorial, and so we saw them there, but we didn't really see them for a couple months. And even the meal trains that people started, it was done in such a way that we didn't interact with people when they dropped off food, and so there's a lot- ... Of, I think, unknowns about- ... Debbie and I. And so the letter d- said, "Hey, thank you for your prayers. You know, I still believe God is good and loving." I did question, in the letter, like, his gentleness sometimes.[chuckles] I just said, "In all honesty, I'm, I'm, I'm... I struggle with God's gentleness," and sometimes-

Sean McDowell: 28:13

Good for you

Dave Keehn: 28:13

... It's a little more difficult. And so I just said, "Please give us grace, that when you see us at church, and we're not standing in worship, just to know that we're still loving God in our hearts." I said, "If you see us, and- ... We don't respond with giving you a hug, we still care about you." And so we just let them know, like-

Sean McDowell: 28:29

That's great

Dave Keehn: 28:29

... "Hey, we're, we are gonna be present, but we're gonna be needing to be other than we, what we used to be." And so it was just a letter trying to say, "Please give us grace." And we actually print the letter in the book. So.

Sean McDowell: 28:42

Yeah, that was powerful. Did someone... Did they read it? Did you email it out to them? What was the-

Dave Keehn: 28:46

Yeah, it was, it was posted many ways, both on the church-

Sean McDowell: 28:48

Oh, okay

Dave Keehn: 28:49

... You know, e-newsletter, and sent out to the p- the members of the church, and as best we could communicate to a lot of people, we did.

Sean McDowell: 28:56

It's a great idea. It's a great idea. Now, there's a ton of stuff that jumped out in your book to me, but as you know, I'm an apologist, [chuckles] so in the back of my mind-

Dave Keehn: 29:04

[laughs]

Sean McDowell: 29:04

... It's always like, how is, how is Dave theologically and personally processing this in your view of God, and Scriptures, all that stuff? So you said you were shaken by the question, "Where was God in that moment?"

Dave Keehn: 29:20

Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: 29:21

So how did you, and how do you process that question?

Dave Keehn: 29:25

That's where the story of the wiseman who built his house on the rock really stood out, that I went back to, what do I know to be true?

Sean McDowell: 29:38

Amen.

Dave Keehn: 29:39

And I went back to just the reality of God, that God is bigger and greater than I will ever understand, and so for me to try to make sense of this, of why God would allow this, wasn't the right answer. It wasn't the right pursuit. And instead, much like the story of Job, I had to come to a point of simply saying, "God, you made Adam in your image, and that included a weak blood vessel in his brain." So I actually have tattooed- ... On my arm Adam's handwriting. We found in his journal the phrase- ..."Made in the image of God." And, um-... And, so we took that, and I had it tattooed on my arm so I could kind of see it regularly, 'cause it's my statement of faith, saying, "God, I don't understand, but in your goodness, and in creating Adam in your image, he was created with this blood vessel weakness." And, and from there, I c- I was able to just recognize, it's not about why the suffering, but it's about who's with me in the suffering. And I was able to then step back, and like I said earlier, like, I could start to see after the fact, God's goodness in protecting us and providing for us in ways that we didn't see in the moment. And that's where I... Like, the wise man, I, like, that foundation, or the house was shaken, right? I mean, the wind and the s- the rain-

Sean McDowell: 31:13

Oh, yeah

Dave Keehn: 31:14

... Beat the house, and there was-

Sean McDowell: 31:15

Yep

Dave Keehn: 31:15

... Storm damage on the house, but the foundation stood. And Debbie and I, because we had been faithfully reading Scripture and spending time in prayer prior to this, in other words, that was part of our daily routine, of just being in Scripture, that actually continued right away, even in the days after, that I just spent days reading the Psalms of Lament, and just being in those psalms, and claiming those psalms. And then going back to the story of Job and recognizing that Job cried out the same questions I was crying out, but God didn't tell him, "Well, here's why the suffering happened." He doesn't say, "Here's what happened-

Sean McDowell: 31:55

He doesn't

Dave Keehn: 31:55

... In Heaven, and it was Satan." He just simply says to Job, "Where were you?"

Sean McDowell: 31:59

Mm-hmm.

Dave Keehn: 32:00

And, and Job confesses, like, I... In chapter 42, he says, "I heard of you, but now I see you." And it was that idea, like, there was an understanding about God that was shallow or naive, and now there's this depth of saying, "Okay, God, you're God and worthy to be worshiped just because you're God, not because of all the good things that you have given or allowed in my life." And so if God is God, His plan was not stopped or thwarted just because Adam died. And I think that was one of the most powerful things that another friend, a mutual friend of ours, a professor here at Biola, Eric Tonness- ... Sent me an email right away, and it said, "Adam's story doesn't end here. Jesus has the final say."

Sean McDowell: 32:47

Wow, I love that. Dave, that example about a solid foundation is just so powerful on so many levels. Friend of mine, one of the just best apologists, former Muslim, Nabeel Qureshi, died in his mid-30s of cancer. Just tragic on so many levels. Towards the end of his life, he did the graduation at Biola. It was actually the last time I saw him, and he'd do these videos, and one of the videos I remember he did before he passed was just like, "I'm gonna go back to the foundation. Why do I believe God exists? Why do I believe the Bible is true?" And that just stuck in my mind. So your foundation wasn't built after this happened-

Dave Keehn: 33:30

No

Sean McDowell: 33:31

... It was built long before, wasn't it?

Dave Keehn: 33:33

Right. Yeah. That's actually one of the things we talk about in the book is, what's your foundation? You know, y- whatever you practice now is what you will practice then.

Sean McDowell: 33:47

[exhales]

Dave Keehn: 33:47

And so if you have weak scaffolding of faith-

Sean McDowell: 33:51

Oh, man

Dave Keehn: 33:53

... Grief will rip it away. Grief exposes- ... The reality of what you really believe and, and do. And so the best thing I tell people is, develop now healthy rhythms of life, of community, of memorizing and meditating on Scripture, because the only thing I could do was breathe short prayers. Like, I couldn't have long prayers with God. I couldn't put thoughts together, but I could, I could, I could repeat scripture that I'd memorized.

Sean McDowell: 34:29

Amazing. Your book is very raw in a good sense. You're honest. You're not just trying to put a bow on this, but of course, it's a hopeful book. One of the areas that I didn't expect is, you talked about how the loss of Adam affected your relationship with Debbie, with your wife. Can you talk about how it affected you and how the two of you, or affects you, and how the two of you deal with that?

Dave Keehn: 34:57

The way it affected us is that we grieved differently- ... And we had to give permission to each other to grieve their own way. In other words- ... I'm, I'm much more of a people, when I'm having a bad day, I wanna, I wanna be around people. And, and so I was wanting to get re-engage with our small group at church. I wanted to re-engage with- ... Other friends more quickly than she was ready. And, and she and I had to have a lot of conversations about, where do we give each other space to grieve, and how do we do this well? And, and because she wasn't ready to engage in the places that we were always together, like at church, it meant that I had to go slower back into the church environment. And so in all honesty, the first group of people that I re-engaged with was my firefighters, because that was a ministry that I had with them. They all knew about my story. They were... Had been very aware and had provided meals and help. And so, some of the first people that I was able to re-engage with and just talk with were firefighters that I knew from my ministry as a chaplain. Because I could do that by myself. I didn't- it would've been very awkward for me to go to our small group of couples by myself. [chuckles]

Sean McDowell: 36:12

Yeah. [chuckles] Sure.

Dave Keehn: 36:12

You know? And, and so it would've really identified there's something going on with Dave and Debbie, or-

Sean McDowell: 36:17

Yeah

Dave Keehn: 36:17

... And so-

Sean McDowell: 36:18

Even if you wrote a letter ahead of time-

Dave Keehn: 36:19

Exactly

Sean McDowell: 36:19

... People would've [laughs]

Dave Keehn: 36:21

And so giving each other space to grieve differently- ... Was so important. And, and even to this day, to recognize that we have different-... Responses to things, and to say, "That's okay." And, and, and where I see it could have been a conflict is, I could have interpreted her lack of responding the way I'm responding as, "You don't care," or, "You're weaker in faith." And I just had to say,"You're different than I am, and I love you as you are, and so you're gonna grieve one way, and I'm gonna grieve a different way, and that's okay."

Sean McDowell: 36:56

My wife and I are constantly in communication, whether it's about our kids, or our finances, or vacation coming up, whatever. Did your- to be in tune with how she's processing this differently, was it just like, "Oh, we've got communication in place," or did you have to really even ramp up that communication with each other? Like, how did that dynamic change?

Dave Keehn: 37:20

Yeah, it was, it was more, ramped up, because I would say, "I think I'm ready to go back." She's like, "I'm not," you know? And so now- ... All of a sudden we have a conflict. Right? We have a difference of opinion, and so we have to talk through, okay, why, and-... You know, so it wasn't just like, "Oh, you're not ready? Okay, no big deal," and walk away. [laughs]

Sean McDowell: 37:38

[laughs] Yeah.

Dave Keehn: 37:38

It was like, "No, I really want to." "No, I really can't." And so you having to go deeper into- ... Your emotions, and why- ... And you're already raw, right? So it's not like you have this great emotional bandwidth to go through the conflict, that you're already really stressed.

Sean McDowell: 37:56

So it's like you haven't eaten, you haven't slept, you're at your wit's end, and you're [chuckles] dealing with conflict-

Dave Keehn: 38:01

Exactly

Sean McDowell: 38:01

... On top of all of that.

Dave Keehn: 38:03

That's why they actually say most marriages that lose a child go through such conflict that a lot of them end in divorce. They just can't-

Sean McDowell: 38:12

Yeah

Dave Keehn: 38:12

... Come together in their grief. And so luckily, what was, once again, so sustaining is Debbie and I, in our practice of reading Scripture, one of the best ways we connected first was encouraging each other in what we were reading in Scripture. And I was, "I'm reading this in the Psalms." She was like, "I'm reading this in, you know, the Epistles," and we would just come alongside and encourage each other, and so we had-

Sean McDowell: 38:35

That's your foundation.

Dave Keehn: 38:36

Exactly. And so we had such a season of that- ... That when we came and said, "Okay, I'm ready to go back.""No, I'm not ready to go back," we weren't as raw. We were, we were coming out of a, of a wellness of good, intentional engagement already, so that we could step into some hard conversations and- ... And come out on the other side loving each other even more.

Sean McDowell: 39:02

Jewish talk show host and Bible commentator Dennis Prager wrote a book. It's actually, I love a book, it's called Happiness Is a Serious Problem, and one of the things he talks about in this book is that couples who lose a child, in his research, a majority get separated or divorced. One thing he said that makes a difference, I don't remember the other ones, but this one stood out to me. He said, "It's those who have a philosophy of life that can at least make sense of this were more likely to withstand, and in some cases, their marriage became stronger." Does that resonate with you?

Dave Keehn: 39:41

Definitely. I would say it was... The subtitle of the book is Expanding Your Capacity to Grieve with Hope. The reality of hope that Debbie and I talk a lot about is Heaven. That is- I had a very naive concept of Heaven before this. We studied and read a lot of different scriptures and other books on Heaven, and encouraged each other with that, and so the life that we have with God is for the now, right? Eternal life starts now-

Sean McDowell: 40:13

Yeah

Dave Keehn: 40:13

... But there's so much more of that [chuckles] eternal life that's gonna be spent in Heaven. And, and so we really were able to have that guiding m- belief of, we're gonna rejoice in Heaven one day with Adam again. And, and it's gonna be here s- before we know it, and- ... We're gonna rejoice. Even if it's decades, it will be here sooner than we realize. And that became what we rallied around.

Sean McDowell: 40:40

Mm-hmm. You talk about one of the chapters that's the hardest to write, which got my attention. Having just being an author myself, sometimes I've had books where I'm like, "Wow, this chapter is just harder than other ones." So it got my attention on that level, but the title was, and is, Living with a Broken Heart. So what's that chapter about, and why was that one the hardest to write?

Dave Keehn: 41:03

It was actually a chapter that is most recent of the stages we're at. You know, you're, you're a few years removed- ... From the death, so you, the rawness-

Sean McDowell: 41:14

We're three and a half years-

Dave Keehn: 41:16

Right

Sean McDowell: 41:16

... If I'm doing the math. Okay.

Dave Keehn: 41:17

Correct, three and a half years from Adam's passing currently.

Sean McDowell: 41:19

And how old was he? I didn't ask you.

Dave Keehn: 41:20

He was 24.

Sean McDowell: 41:21

He was only 24.

Dave Keehn: 41:23

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 41:23

Oh.

Dave Keehn: 41:24

So, and his daughter is a marker of how many years, 'cause she was born three weeks right after it.

Sean McDowell: 41:29

There you go.

Dave Keehn: 41:29

So, I mean, you can look at your, his daughter, our granddaughter, and know the time that's passed. But what I mean by that is that there's something that is never right this side of Heaven. In other words, I'm looking forward to Heaven, because I'll be able to be with my son, and have conversations, and enjoy the b- the culture and the glory of Heaven together. But on this side of it, there's still always gonna be something that is not fixed. Even as good as God is- ... And as much as God has restored us- ... That there is this level of struggle that takes place, and, part of that is there are, at times, there's a sense of discouragement- ... Because the journey of grief continues- ... Longer than you want it to continue. And so it was hard to write, because it's the stage I'm-... I'm still [chuckles] trying to process through. It's like, you feel like, "God, I've been grieving long enough. Why am I- why is my heart still broken over-" ... You know, uh-... You know, Debbie had said, "Dave, you cry so much easier now." Well, it's because I'm emotionally- -wounded, that many things will trigger me. And it's not just even, like, seeing a dad playing with his son. It's like we were flying home from Atlanta with our daughter, seeing our- at Thanksgiving, and there was a beautiful cellist playing in the middle of the airport in Atlanta.

Sean McDowell: 43:03

[chuckles]

Dave Keehn: 43:03

And I was like... I started to well up-

Sean McDowell: 43:05

Oh, my goodness

Dave Keehn: 43:06

... Just the beauty of the moment.

Sean McDowell: 43:07

[laughs]

Dave Keehn: 43:07

I'm like, "What's wrong with me?" Well, it's just the rawness that my heart- ... Is still going through this journey of doing life without Adam that, that, that I love so much- ... That I think it's just understanding it's okay to go through this, and you're, you're gonna be, you know, walking this journey where there is gonna be pain. And, and that's what I mean by living with a broken heart. It's, like, it's, it's just your reality. People have pushed us and Adam's widow to get back to what we used to be, and that never will happen. You will never become the person again who you were prior to this event, and so I think that's understanding what it means to live in this new normal.

Sean McDowell: 43:53

So you describe hearing this cello, and it moves you to tears because the grief you're in. I also wonder if you think it's not just a stage, but it's as if your capacity has been expanded forever, and it'll never go back.

Dave Keehn: 44:08

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 44:08

Like, I think of people like Joni Eareckson Tada, and I think when she gets to Heaven, she's [chuckles] just going to appreciate it more than I do.

Dave Keehn: 44:15

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 44:15

Like, there's no way outside of that.

Dave Keehn: 44:17

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 44:17

So i-i-it's not just, like, a process, like in six weeks. I would suspect you wouldn't want to be like, "Well, now I don't cry at that." Now, it's like it's almost like when I think about things in my life, it's like I've unlocked something I didn't know was there.

Dave Keehn: 44:32

Very true.

Sean McDowell: 44:32

And in some ways, it's like because of deeper pain on this side brings deeper joy on that side. Does that explain the way you look at it?

Dave Keehn: 44:41

Yeah. No, that very much is true. I think there's just a... It's like when your senses become more acute because something on one sense has been diminished.

Sean McDowell: 44:50

Mm-hmm.

Dave Keehn: 44:51

Yeah, I would say our... There is a depth of life that we now are experiencing, and people have even s- talked about it, like, my preaching. Like, "Dave, the rawness and realness that you're- ... Talking about isn't just about grief. It's just everything about your journey with Jesus seems more vivid." And I think that's probably exactly what you're, you're saying is- ... Is that I've, and, you know, we're in this greater capacity, and I mean, we're, we're doing things that we never thought we'd have the bandwidth to do again. But, I mean, the way that God has been using this story... Like, we asked God,"Let us steward his death well." Like, there's been a lot of opportunities. Like, we never expected this book. This, this book was kind of like the unintentional-

Sean McDowell: 45:39

Oh, gosh

Dave Keehn: 45:39

... Opportunity that we took advantage of.

Sean McDowell: 45:41

It's just not a book you'd say, "I wanna write this book"- [laughs]

Dave Keehn: 45:45

[laughs] Right.

Sean McDowell: 45:45

... First the most obvious reasons on the planet. I do wonder, you know, maybe in a few years, you and I could have this conversation where you're three and a half years out, and I go, "Dave, it's been a decade. How do you see things differently?" And you'd probably be like, "Sean, I had no idea, two decades." Like, that's, that's part of the process.

Dave Keehn: 46:05

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 46:05

But what would you say to somebody who this is more raw to them, within maybe... I don't m- I don't even know what timeframe it is, but you could pick the timeframe, but somebody who's in a shorter, closer- ... To this happen. Looking back at this now, what would you say to that parent?

Dave Keehn: 46:22

I would say there is no exact path that everybody's gonna walk. It's like, you have to-... You have to embrace the journey you're on, as hard as it is, because that, there's, you're, you're only gonna grow through the process. But there is no shortcut to relieving the hurt. There is no, like, timer that goes off- ... And it's automatically better. You will find that each day you breathe easier. You will find each day you see the hope of the Gospel more clearly. You'll f- you'll find that, the journey starts to open up a lot more opportunities for life and-... And peace. Again, you will have joy, but don't rush it, and don't allow people to rush it for you. Don't allow people to say- ... "You should be done by now. You should be different by now." To say, "You know what? If it takes you six months or not, you know, it, you..." Just to allow the pain to turn you to God, and then, and then in God, find the, the relief that only God can bring. We do talk in the book, and we actually have a licensed therapist write this chapter on depression. Just so that people know that there may be warning signs, too, if someone is moving from prolonged grief and sadness to clinical depression. And, and to say, "Look, if..." You know, we, we don't wanna be naive and think like, you know, grief is no big deal. There, there could be some real psychological, changes to be aware of, and that we need to step in and help people through. But I say, be slow in judging people's response to grief. Be slow in expecting people to get over certain things. Let, let people take the journey they need to be on and- ... And just be present with them, so when they are ready to take the next step forward, they are ready to, you know, engage. 'Cause, like, I... We couldn't even go to counseling right away, you know? Like, we-

Sean McDowell: 48:26

Oh

Dave Keehn: 48:26

... It took us some time to be even ready to share our story with anybody.

Sean McDowell: 48:30

Sure.

Dave Keehn: 48:30

To say, okay, you know, when they are ready to take that step, that you're there to help them and advocate for them- ... But to allow the journey to happen.

Sean McDowell: 48:38

Tell me what's shifted in your view on Heaven. Again, I love that it's the last chapter in the book for so many reasons. Of course, we see the new heavens and new worth coming in the last [chuckles] chapters of Revelation.

Dave Keehn: 48:48

Right.

Sean McDowell: 48:48

So it's fitting, but what-... Shifted in, like, your theology? Is it that you thought about heaven more? Is it you believe in it more deeply? Is it that you now think differently about it? Like, what shifted in your thoughts on heaven?

Dave Keehn: 49:02

You know, in all honesty, I think most pastors take maybe a lecture on heaven in seminary. You know, like, we don't- there's not, like, big, long conversations, I think, in most seminaries on heaven. Maybe there is now, but at least when I went to seminary-

Sean McDowell: 49:17

That's interesting. I didn't- where- did you go to Talbot when you-

Dave Keehn: 49:19

Yeah, I went here to Talbot, and, you know, it's... I think there was a couple lectures I had with Dr. Saucy, looking at, you know, the whole different-

Sean McDowell: 49:26

Yeah

Dave Keehn: 49:26

... Stages of millennium. But when you think about just the nature- ... Of heaven itself, not the chronological theological perspectives of-

Sean McDowell: 49:33

Sure

Dave Keehn: 49:33

... End times, but the nature of heaven, it was very, in my, in my thinking, it was very cartoonish. Meaning, like, yeah, I knew heaven existed, but it was just this golden place- ... And I was enjoying life on Earth so much, I didn't wanna even consider what heaven will be- ... And is. And so this pushed me, originally, my question to God is, "What's Adam doing right now?" You know, a few months into it, I could actually-

Sean McDowell: 50:01

Such an interesting question.

Dave Keehn: 50:02

You know, I just started to think, "I wonder what Adam's experiencing right now." And, and so that's where I just started reading as much of the scriptures as I could about heaven, starting to see different books and different perspectives, and what changed for me is the idea of the culture of heaven, that heaven is described as the city of God. It's also described as a resurrected Eden. Both of those are- ... Places to be enjoyed. Both of those are places where there is expected activity, you know, that heaven isn't just sitting around in an, in an eternal worship service. You know, it really is... Yes, God is there, and we're worshiping God, but we're enjoying each other. We have a- we have work that we're gonna be doing- ... According to the scriptures, that Adam knows what's going on right now in my life. He knows what's going on in his wife and his daughter's life, because you can see that the people of, in heaven had an awareness of their life on Earth, and they have an understanding, if you look at Revelation, of, like, the time period that people are in. And so it- I had this great awareness that it wasn't just this blank canvas of bliss, where people are just kind of floating around with a nothingness. There actually is a lot of activity. There's a lot of energy of what we'll be doing together, and so that's where I just was- I took such great hope to know that, man, Adam and I are gonna have amazing conversations- ... About things. And I have had people say to me, "Well, how can Adam know what's going on if there's no crying in heaven?" Well, first of all, that's the final heaven that comes, but- ... I think, and someone told it to me this way, and it's my best understanding. I don't really have a lot of theology to back it up, so I apologize to the theologists, but-

Sean McDowell: 51:46

[laughing] Are you kidding me?

Dave Keehn: 51:48

That because time is different-

Sean McDowell: 51:51

Huh

Dave Keehn: 51:51

... With God, that the perspective is that the people in heaven are not missing us like we're missing them. Like, for them, we'll be in heaven, like, in the next moment, and so from... Because of how time operates. And I- ... Don't have anything to back that up as far as, like, a scripture-... Other than to say we do know that time is just different for God and in God's space. It's not like we think in chronological years, necessarily, so.

Sean McDowell: 52:21

I don't know the answer to that. I can't... That's, that's a fascinating question that I'm gonna be thinking about. You know, in some ways, my own, part of my answer is just, like, when we're in God's presence, everything changes.

Dave Keehn: 52:34

Exactly. Exactly.

Sean McDowell: 52:36

I mean, Peter's like, "Holy cow, I am a sinful man. Get away from me, Lord." Like, that's just a glimpse.

Dave Keehn: 52:43

Exactly.

Sean McDowell: 52:44

A glimpse. We see through a glass darkly. So we can speculate about time. We can speculate about all this stuff, and that's good theological language, but in some ways, it's a kind of experience in God's presence, His goodness-

Dave Keehn: 52:58

Right

Sean McDowell: 52:58

... That when we're there, we go, "Oh, I get it."

Dave Keehn: 53:01

Yeah, and that's-

Sean McDowell: 53:02

I get it

Dave Keehn: 53:02

... That's my best explanation to people, 'cause when I explain- ... Like, scripture indicates from the stories of, like, Jesus and Lazarus or the martyrs crying out for justice- ... There's, there seems to be an awareness of other family members that are still on Earth or other people. And, and that's where people are like, "Well, how can someone be in heaven and feel any type of... 'Cause wouldn't Adam be sad," they think, "of missing his daughter?" And that's where I'm pushing back, and I'm like, I don't think Adam's feeling sadness. I think he's feeling expectation. That he's like- ... He's with God, and he's... It's so glorious, and knowing his personality, he's just welcoming people there with joy, and in his experience, in my mind, it's like in a moment we're gonna be there with him. And so he's not sad. He's like, "I can't wait for you to get here, Dad." You know? And, and that might be a long time still, but his experience is so different that it's not even a comparison to what my emotions are here now.

Sean McDowell: 54:03

That's great reflection on that, and you got my mind running wild on heaven, but, tell us a little bit about the Adam Kean Foundation. I mean, Eric Tonnes sent you that note that his story is not finished, and I'm guessing what you mean by that is it's carried out through the book, through the podcast, but this foundation, what you started, what you do, and kind of what it's about.

Dave Keehn: 54:28

Yeah, I... You know, I think his words were, "There's so much more to Adam going on now in heaven, as well as what his legacy is gonna be- ... And that Jesus, He has the final say in all of these things, of what we're gonna do here on Earth, as well as why we're in heaven." But the Adam Kean Foundation is one of those- ... Ways that we, decided we wanted to continue Adam's legacy for the Gospel.... So Adam, he grew up as a pastor's kid, you know, forced to go to church. You know, his dad was the youth pastor.

Sean McDowell: 55:01

I know the drill.

Dave Keehn: 55:02

And, and so Adam, when he was in middle school and high school, really didn't wanna be known as a pastor's kid.

Sean McDowell: 55:07

[laughs]

Dave Keehn: 55:07

He had his own struggles and journey, and so, looking at Adam's life, it's a miracle that, you know, he came to me when he was here in college here at Biola, said,"Dad, I think I wanna- I think God's calling me to be a youth pastor." And I was just so blown away by that, but what was amazing- ... Is because Adam really wrestled with his faith and who is God, his understanding of grace was at such a deeper level than mine. I grew up in the church. I grew up- ... Just believing. It was, it was came natural to understand. So grace doesn't mean the same thing to me as it means to Adam. And so he was so passionate for the gospel, and when you saw it with... You know, he worked on staff at Mariners Church in Irvine for a bit, part-time, and then he got a full-time job at a church in Glendora, and he was just so passionate to see how these ministries were creating good work, and he started actually in the midst of COVID, and yet even in the midst of COVID, his ministry grew. He saw kids come to Christ and salvations and baptisms.

Sean McDowell: 56:09

Amazing.

Dave Keehn: 56:10

And so we said, "How do we keep that legacy for the gospel going with the next Adam?" And so part of what God's grace has allowed us to do is our hope is in heaven, and we have this greater capacity to grieve with hope, is that we have started a foundation to come alongside brand-new, young youth pastors who are just starting ministry, and we provide them what we call ministry development coaching, where we give them a veteran youth pastor who's been in ministry for at least 20-plus years, and they walk with that young youth pastor and helping them understand what to do to take the next sustainable step in their ministry. And so it's just been one of those opportunities to see God really continue the work of the gospel that you saw starting in Adam's ministry and continuing with so many now, youth pastors across the United States and Canada.

Sean McDowell: 57:01

I love that. Such a good vision. I could've used that my first year teaching high school, to have a veteran[laughs] come alongside me. Oh, man, it would've saved me a lot of grief, that's for sure. Anything else about the book or his story that you wanna share?

Dave Keehn: 57:17

It has been, a privilege to be his dad- ... And to see his legacy, being lived out. We, we have had so many youth pastors that in the last two years of c- of coaching, that this foundation has existed, that have just expressed such gratitude that we have provided resources and finances and coaching for them, and in many ways, we, you know, we wish we never would've had a foundation, but the fact that God is bigger than our pain and can use our story to help other youth pastors, to help others who are grieving, that's really what we are hoping, whether through the book or through Adam's foundation, that the Church grows in its love for each other, its ability to walk alongside those who are grieving-... And the ability to really keep everybody looking forward to what the reality of heaven is.

Sean McDowell: 58:16

Amen. You know, I have a lot of takeaways from this conversation, Dave, but one of the things you said early on is that you and Debbie wanted to grieve well. That's exactly the right question. It's exactly the right question. One of my... We had a chance to interview here years ago, Os Guinness, and I was like- "Os, what's your legacy?" He goes, "Sean, that's a secular idea." [chuckles] He goes, "All that matters is God says,'Well done, my good and faithful servant.'" So thanks for being a great example of doing that.

Dave Keehn: 58:49

Thank you.

Sean McDowell: 58:49

Thanks for the work to write this book, going out on a limb, make yourself vulnerable, and just retelling[chuckles] this story every time has gotta be exhausting, but I can only imagine how many people are being blessed and encouraged by this. And I wanna encourage people to pick up Living in the Shadow of Grief, and I... I mean, I sat down, and I couldn't put it down. [chuckles] I was just gonna... I read it through on a plane and just worked through it, and not that I'm going through the shadow of grief in my life, but I started thinking about other people in my life, relationships that I have, how to process this. It's story-based. It's not a long book. It doesn't need to be. It's just, "Here's your story, and here's some biblical, practical principles either to grieve well or to help minister to people who are."

Dave Keehn: 59:35

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 59:36

That in itself is worth the price of the book and far beyond. So if you're listening now to Think Biblically podcast, pick up a copy of Living in the Shadow of Grief by Dave Keen. Dave, thanks again, brother.

Dave Keehn: 59:48

My pleasure. Thank you, Sean. [upbeat music]