{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":0.3,"endTime":4.0,"body":"[upbeat music] With church going in decline in the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":4.0,"endTime":7.099,"body":"United States, what's the relevance of the church today?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":7.099,"endTime":10.0,"body":"And what's the significance of the Bible using the language of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":10.0,"endTime":13.58,"body":"family to describe the church? And what do we say to the person"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":13.58,"endTime":16.92,"body":"who insists that they can have a vibrant spiritual life but don't"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":16.92,"endTime":20.079,"body":"need the church? We'll answer these questions and a whole lot"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":20.079,"endTime":22.739,"body":"more with our guest today, our colleague in Old Testament, Dr."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":22.739,"endTime":26.859,"body":"Carmen Imes, from her new book, Becoming God's Family. I'm your"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":26.859,"endTime":27.829,"body":"host, Scott Rae."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":27.829,"endTime":29.179,"body":"And I'm your co-host, Sean McDowell."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":29.179,"endTime":30.94,"body":"This is Think Biblically from Talbot School of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":30.94,"endTime":34.679,"body":"Theology, Biola University. Carmen, welcome. So good to have"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":34.679,"endTime":37.96,"body":"you with us, as you- we talk about your... The final book in"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":37.96,"endTime":39.34,"body":"your trilogy of three-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":39.34,"endTime":39.719,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":39.719,"endTime":42.34,"body":"... On Becoming God's Family. So it's obvious"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":42.34,"endTime":44.92,"body":"from reading your book that the church is really important to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":44.92,"endTime":48.78,"body":"you theologically and biblically- ... But also really"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":48.78,"endTime":51.5,"body":"personally, too. What's... Tell our, help our listeners"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":51.5,"endTime":53.64,"body":"understand a little bit about why that is."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":53.64,"endTime":56.539,"body":"Sure. So I grew up in the church, and I don't ever"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":56.539,"endTime":58.109,"body":"remember a time when our family"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":58.64,"endTime":61.84,"body":"sat down on a Sunday morning to discuss whether we should,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":61.84,"endTime":64.76,"body":"whether we should go. It was just obvious that we would go to"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":64.76,"endTime":68.26,"body":"church. It was never a question. Even when we went through really"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":68.26,"endTime":72.92,"body":"hard church situations, we went through an experience of a"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":72.92,"endTime":73.319,"body":"pastor"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":73.989,"endTime":77.2,"body":"failing, you know, falling into sin- ... And the whole church"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":77.2,"endTime":80.76,"body":"ended up closing, and that was a really tumultuous time for us,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":80.76,"endTime":84.26,"body":"but there was never a, even a consideration of walking away"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":84.26,"endTime":86.659,"body":"from the church. It was just a question of, where do we go"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":86.659,"endTime":92.14,"body":"next? And I don't think I really realized how important"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":92.14,"endTime":95.599,"body":"the church was until more recent years when I started watching"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":95.599,"endTime":99.219,"body":"friends and family members just sort of lose interest and walk"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":99.219,"endTime":103.42,"body":"away, and I realized we need to make a case for why the church"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":103.42,"endTime":107.299,"body":"matters. It isn't obvious, and what I- while I couldn't see the"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":107.299,"endTime":110.68,"body":"forest for the trees because the church was so much a part of my"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":110.68,"endTime":114.439,"body":"life, the more s- time I've spent reflecting on it, the more"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":114.439,"endTime":115.59,"body":"I've just been,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":116.299,"endTime":121.2,"body":"reinvigorated or recaptivated by the church. I feel like now that"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":121.2,"endTime":125.079,"body":"I'm looking for it, now that I'm noticing it, every week, I see"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":125.079,"endTime":129.419,"body":"stories of how God is at work in deep ways in people's lives, in"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":129.419,"endTime":131.879,"body":"and through the church, in ways that I don't think happen"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":131.879,"endTime":134.379,"body":"outside the church."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":134.379,"endTime":137.06,"body":"Why does the church still matter today? In"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":137.06,"endTime":140.06,"body":"other words, like, summarize the big idea of your book. The"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":140.06,"endTime":142.78,"body":"church still matters today because..."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":142.78,"endTime":145.08,"body":"Because God designed us for community- ..."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":145.08,"endTime":148.4,"body":"And He never meant for us to walk the life of faith alone."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":148.4,"endTime":151.62,"body":"And so if we disconnect from the church, we're actually cutting"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":151.62,"endTime":154.699,"body":"ourselves off from one of the most important formative life"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":154.699,"endTime":156.78,"body":"sources that we have."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":156.78,"endTime":159.74,"body":"Why, why don't... Why do you think people not see"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":159.74,"endTime":161.039,"body":"that- ... Today?"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":161.039,"endTime":161.699,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":161.699,"endTime":164.02,"body":"I'm so curious about that because-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":164.02,"endTime":164.03,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":164.03,"endTime":165.96,"body":"... People, I think it's, it's easy for some people"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":165.96,"endTime":168.919,"body":"to walk away from church because, \"It's just not adding"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":168.919,"endTime":170.0,"body":"anything to my life.\""},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":170.0,"endTime":170.8,"body":"Yep. I-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":170.8,"endTime":172.58,"body":"But I, but I mean, obviously, that's probably"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":172.58,"endTime":173.659,"body":"the wrong way to frame it-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":173.659,"endTime":173.669,"body":"Yep"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":173.669,"endTime":175.21,"body":"... I would suggest, but how would you-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":175.21,"endTime":175.21,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":175.21,"endTime":176.28,"body":"... Respond to that?"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":176.28,"endTime":180.879,"body":"I think m- for many, especially Westerners, who"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":180.879,"endTime":185.699,"body":"are just deeply invested in in- rugged individualism- ... Church"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":185.699,"endTime":190.5,"body":"has become just one more thing, one more, thing on my to-do list"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":190.5,"endTime":194.52,"body":"of self-actualization. I do all of these things to become a"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":194.52,"endTime":198.319,"body":"better me, and I evaluate the effectiveness of all of them"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":198.319,"endTime":198.719,"body":"based on"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":199.319,"endTime":203.06,"body":"whether it meets a felt need. And I think what we're missing"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":203.06,"endTime":206.419,"body":"is that church isn't about me, it's about us and what we're"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":206.419,"endTime":206.949,"body":"becoming."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":207.46,"endTime":210.229,"body":"I think for some people, they imagine that church is gonna be"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":210.229,"endTime":213.319,"body":"the place where they learn things spiritually, like they,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":213.319,"endTime":216.719,"body":"they learn new things about the Bible, and so they maybe have it"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":216.719,"endTime":220.319,"body":"in a, like a religious education category. So if they show up at"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":220.319,"endTime":223.74,"body":"church, and the sermon doesn't teach them anything new, they,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":223.74,"endTime":226.62,"body":"they might think, \"Why, why did I bother? I could learn more on"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":226.62,"endTime":230.46,"body":"YouTube than I did this morning- ... In church.\" And I think"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":230.46,"endTime":234.539,"body":"that's a, actually a category mistake. Church is not primarily"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":234.539,"endTime":237.56,"body":"about religious education, although religious education"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":237.56,"endTime":240.58,"body":"happens. I don't think it's primarily... The point is not"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":240.58,"endTime":244.379,"body":"primarily to teach us something we don't know. If it was, the"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":244.379,"endTime":247.379,"body":"three of us would be in big trouble, right? Like, the more"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":247.379,"endTime":250.12,"body":"theological education you have, the less you're likely to learn"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":250.12,"endTime":253.74,"body":"on a Sunday morning. But I have found that church, again and"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":253.74,"endTime":259.04,"body":"again, kind of recalibrates my compass. So if you think of the"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":259.04,"endTime":262.22,"body":"life of faith as, like, you have this internal compass pointing"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":262.22,"endTime":266.019,"body":"north, a compass, I'm told, I'm not, you know, an expert on"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":266.019,"endTime":269.36,"body":"this, but I'm told that a compass will start to point"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":269.36,"endTime":273.12,"body":"off-kilter if it's next to magnetic forces. Like, even if"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":273.12,"endTime":276.259,"body":"you just, like, put it next to a cell phone for a while, it might"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":276.259,"endTime":281.139,"body":"pull it off, course. And so every now and then, a compass"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":281.139,"endTime":283.06,"body":"needs to be checked to make sure it's pointing the right"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":283.06,"endTime":286.3,"body":"direction, and that is what I think the church is doing for"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":286.3,"endTime":289.66,"body":"us, among other things. That it's like this almost"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":289.66,"endTime":295.1,"body":"imperceptible realignment of our values and our mission, of"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":295.1,"endTime":299.66,"body":"what matters to us, and when we stop going regularly, when we"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":299.66,"endTime":303.1,"body":"stop g- being plugged into this community of people, I think we"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":303.1,"endTime":307.399,"body":"can gradually get pulled by the world in a new direction without"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":307.399,"endTime":311.16,"body":"realizing it. And so on a, on a given Sunday, I might not feel"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":311.16,"endTime":311.98,"body":"the needle moving,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":313.3,"endTime":316.959,"body":"but 600 miles down the road, that one degree of difference"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":316.959,"endTime":319.759,"body":"makes a big difference in where I land."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":319.759,"endTime":321.689,"body":"Which is exactly what Paul's talking about"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":321.689,"endTime":324.139,"body":"not being conformed to this world-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":324.139,"endTime":324.25,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":324.25,"endTime":326.439,"body":"... But transformed by the renewing of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":326.439,"endTime":327.48,"body":"your mind."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":327.48,"endTime":327.649,"body":"That's right."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":327.649,"endTime":331.079,"body":"That's a very subtle, step-by-step process-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":331.079,"endTime":331.129,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":331.129,"endTime":332.72,"body":"... That gets us there. And I don't know the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":332.72,"endTime":334.699,"body":"answer to this, but it's interesting, like, do people"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":334.699,"endTime":338.439,"body":"show up more saying, \"I want to be educated. If I don't get- ..."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":338.439,"endTime":341.48,"body":"Educated here, I'll go somewhere else,\" versus just being"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":341.48,"endTime":342.339,"body":"entertained-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":342.339,"endTime":342.61,"body":"Yep"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":342.61,"endTime":345.18,"body":"... And feeling good? I don't know the answer-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":345.18,"endTime":345.319,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":345.319,"endTime":347.98,"body":"... But I strike that might be a bigger boulder"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":347.98,"endTime":348.8,"body":"in, like, the-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":348.8,"endTime":348.98,"body":"Sure"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":348.98,"endTime":351.3,"body":"... The pile, so to speak. But nonetheless, your"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":351.3,"endTime":355.519,"body":"point is that if our priorities aren't set on what the church is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":355.519,"endTime":358.379,"body":"and why we should go, regardless of how we feel-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":358.379,"endTime":358.56,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":358.56,"endTime":360.322,"body":"... Whether we learn something new or not-..."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":360.322,"endTime":362.711,"body":"Then we're not gonna be there for the right reasons and grow,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":362.711,"endTime":363.242,"body":"which I-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":363.242,"endTime":363.242,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":363.242,"endTime":364.451,"body":"... Which I think is the point."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":364.451,"endTime":364.742,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":364.742,"endTime":364.752,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":364.752,"endTime":366.732,"body":"You're absolutely right. I would say, I would say"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":366.732,"endTime":369.591,"body":"for a lot of people, it's, \"I'm looking for a spiritual"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":369.591,"endTime":372.391,"body":"experience, some kind of inspiration- -and if I don't"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":372.391,"endTime":375.771,"body":"feel inspired, then it didn't work, and I should go find"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":375.771,"endTime":377.041,"body":"another venue.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":377.041,"endTime":378.732,"body":"Well, I think to take your compass analogy a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":378.732,"endTime":382.062,"body":"little bit further, I think what it has to recalibrate is the,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":382.062,"endTime":385.012,"body":"the, is people walk into the church with a compass pointed at"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":385.012,"endTime":385.771,"body":"themselves."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":385.771,"endTime":386.552,"body":"[laughs] There you go."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":386.552,"endTime":388.632,"body":"And looking to find direction from that."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":388.632,"endTime":388.891,"body":"Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":388.891,"endTime":391.271,"body":"And I think your point about it's not about us,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":391.271,"endTime":393.8,"body":"but about- ... Or not about myself, but about-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":393.8,"endTime":393.872,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":393.872,"endTime":395.432,"body":"... Us corporately-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":395.432,"endTime":395.771,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":395.771,"endTime":397.911,"body":"... It helps recalibrate the compass"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":397.911,"endTime":400.672,"body":"away from- ... Looking at who we are internally."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":400.672,"endTime":401.94,"body":"Yeah. You might not"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":402.552,"endTime":406.812,"body":"get any tangible benefit on a given Sunday, but someone else"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":406.812,"endTime":410.552,"body":"might have been so encouraged to see you there, and your smile or"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":410.552,"endTime":413.552,"body":"your side hug- ... Or whatever might have actually been the"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":413.552,"endTime":416.391,"body":"thing that gave them the strength to go through another"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":416.391,"endTime":419.591,"body":"week. And so we're not there for ourselves, we're there for each"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":419.591,"endTime":422.911,"body":"other, and in a radically individualized world,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":423.812,"endTime":427.641,"body":"I think this is, this is radical. Like, to say,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":427.641,"endTime":430.052,"body":"\"I'm gonna go do something that's not about me, but it's"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":430.052,"endTime":433.612,"body":"about, you know, what God might do among us, what God might do"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":433.612,"endTime":434.992,"body":"through me for the sake of others.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":434.992,"endTime":436.771,"body":"You mean that's a little bit countercultural"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":436.771,"endTime":437.132,"body":"today?"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":437.132,"endTime":438.242,"body":"[laughs] It's a lot a bit countercultural."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":438.242,"endTime":440.572,"body":"And you're right to call it a side hug, because"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":440.572,"endTime":441.072,"body":"there are-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":441.072,"endTime":441.132,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":441.132,"endTime":443.201,"body":"... Ways we show affection in the Church,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":443.732,"endTime":447.932,"body":"[laughs] and that's a topic for another time. But I thought it"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":447.932,"endTime":450.232,"body":"was interesting, when we think about church, we often think"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":450.232,"endTime":454.411,"body":"about it being a New Testament concept. Of course, Jesus begins"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":454.411,"endTime":457.391,"body":"the Church in some sense with the Holy Spirit, in comparison"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":457.391,"endTime":460.372,"body":"to the Old Testament. But you're an Old Testament professor."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":460.372,"endTime":460.512,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":460.512,"endTime":462.951,"body":"So in some ways, it makes perfect sense that a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":462.951,"endTime":466.951,"body":"majority of your book is really about kind of church, so to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":466.951,"endTime":470.091,"body":"speak, as the community of God's people."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":470.091,"endTime":470.291,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":470.291,"endTime":472.271,"body":"So talk about where we see church, so to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":472.271,"endTime":473.451,"body":"speak, in the Old Testament."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":473.451,"endTime":475.351,"body":"Yeah, so I like to remind people that"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":475.351,"endTime":478.101,"body":"three-quarters of the Bible is the Old Testament. [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":478.101,"endTime":478.101,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":478.101,"endTime":478.252,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":478.252,"endTime":480.531,"body":"And three-quarters of my book is in the Old"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":480.531,"endTime":483.331,"body":"Testament because this is a work of biblical theology."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":483.331,"endTime":486.562,"body":"Unlike some books on the Church that are kind of practical"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":486.562,"endTime":490.351,"body":"how-to manuals or step-by-step guide to a better church, this"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":490.351,"endTime":494.372,"body":"one is a kind of slow trek through Scripture, looking at"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":494.372,"endTime":497.291,"body":"what does God do in the gathered community?"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":497.951,"endTime":500.872,"body":"Not just the positive examples, but also the negative examples."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":500.872,"endTime":504.911,"body":"What happens when the people of God gather together around false"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":504.911,"endTime":508.132,"body":"ideas- ... Around the wrong values? What are the"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":508.132,"endTime":511.672,"body":"implications of that, and how does God respond? And so from"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":511.672,"endTime":515.011,"body":"the very beginning, you know, we start in Genesis, and I've"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":515.011,"endTime":516.211,"body":"isolated,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":516.792,"endTime":521.912,"body":"episodes in God's story where the people of God come together,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":521.912,"endTime":525.432,"body":"and God is doing something corporately among them. And so"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":525.432,"endTime":528.601,"body":"this, I think, lays the foundation for what we see about"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":528.601,"endTime":531.701,"body":"the Church in the New Testament. The- a lot of people talk about"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":531.701,"endTime":534.371,"body":"the Church as having started on the day of Pentecost, and I"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":534.371,"endTime":536.28,"body":"always get a little bit like, \"Oh,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":536.971,"endTime":539.971,"body":"you're missing the whole beginning of the story.\" There"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":539.971,"endTime":543.751,"body":"is something, fresh and new that happens at Pentecost, for sure."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":543.751,"endTime":548.192,"body":"There... It is a starting in some senses, but it's, it's also"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":548.192,"endTime":551.631,"body":"in continuity with God's work among his people from the"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":551.631,"endTime":555.251,"body":"beginning. In particular, when the Spirit of God falls like"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":555.251,"endTime":559.532,"body":"fire at Pentecost, this connects in with this biblical theme of"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":559.532,"endTime":563.711,"body":"the Spirit coming as fire in the gathered community over and over"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":563.711,"endTime":567.272,"body":"again, so it connects us in with a bigger story."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":567.272,"endTime":569.412,"body":"Now, what would you say... We have stu- we"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":569.412,"endTime":573.272,"body":"have students here at Biola who, you know, they go to chapel,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":573.272,"endTime":574.652,"body":"they go to Bible classes."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":574.652,"endTime":575.172,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":575.172,"endTime":577.272,"body":"They feel like, \"This is good enough-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":577.272,"endTime":577.532,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":577.532,"endTime":581.131,"body":"... And I can have this vibrant spiritual life"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":581.951,"endTime":582.851,"body":"on my own.\""},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":582.851,"endTime":583.751,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":583.751,"endTime":585.711,"body":"And i- and in part, that reflects, I think,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":585.711,"endTime":588.172,"body":"the individualism of our, of our culture."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":588.172,"endTime":588.422,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":588.422,"endTime":590.272,"body":"And then, so, and what's become of that is that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":590.272,"endTime":593.192,"body":"faith has become m- I think, more and more, a essentially a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":593.192,"endTime":594.072,"body":"private matter."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":594.072,"endTime":594.792,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":594.792,"endTime":597.412,"body":"Without... It's a- it's about me and not about us."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":597.412,"endTime":597.981,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":597.981,"endTime":599.652,"body":"But what would you say to the person who says,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":599.652,"endTime":603.131,"body":"\"Look, I don't, I don't need the church. I'm getting everything I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":603.131,"endTime":605.831,"body":"c- everything I need here in chapel and in my classes.\""},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":605.831,"endTime":606.932,"body":"Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":606.932,"endTime":608.772,"body":"Or f- you know, for the person who's not a student,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":608.772,"endTime":610.772,"body":"\"I'm getting everything I need on YouTube-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":610.772,"endTime":611.072,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":611.072,"endTime":611.731,"body":"... Or from other-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":611.731,"endTime":611.741,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":611.741,"endTime":613.0,"body":"... From other sources.\""},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":613.0,"endTime":613.0,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":613.0,"endTime":615.211,"body":"\"Or I can, or I can go to church online-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":615.211,"endTime":615.652,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":615.652,"endTime":617.981,"body":"... And, you know, stay home in my pajamas.\""},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":617.981,"endTime":618.221,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":618.971,"endTime":621.532,"body":"What would you say to that person who says, \"Look,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":621.532,"endTime":624.052,"body":"I can have this vibrant spiritual life, but I don't need"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":624.052,"endTime":624.451,"body":"the church?\""},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":624.451,"endTime":624.461,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":624.461,"endTime":626.251,"body":"\"The church is more trouble than it's worth.\""},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":626.251,"endTime":628.912,"body":"Yeah. Well, to the student, I would say there's"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":628.912,"endTime":632.231,"body":"something quite artificial about getting a bunch of 18 to"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":632.231,"endTime":636.091,"body":"22-year-olds, mostly, in the same room to worship Jesus, and"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":636.091,"endTime":639.192,"body":"you sing, and you hear a message, and you leave. But"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":639.192,"endTime":640.062,"body":"there's not,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":640.631,"endTime":645.392,"body":"weddings or funerals or baptisms or- ... Communion. Like, there's"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":645.392,"endTime":649.692,"body":"a, there's... It's missing some significant aspects of the life"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":649.692,"endTime":653.091,"body":"of the Church, and one of the primary things that's missing is"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":653.091,"endTime":657.312,"body":"intergenerational friendships that I think uniquely are formed"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":657.312,"endTime":659.871,"body":"in the church. We, we have intergenerational friendships in"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":659.871,"endTime":664.991,"body":"our families, and the Church is mimicking that by helping us"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":664.991,"endTime":669.292,"body":"to enter into that. And I see this on a weekly basis at my"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":669.292,"endTime":672.951,"body":"church, where, the kids come back from children's church and"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":672.951,"endTime":676.611,"body":"join us before communion in the service, and you can see the,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":676.611,"endTime":678.211,"body":"the little four-year-olds coming, and they're, like,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":678.211,"endTime":679.542,"body":"waving at the college students. [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":679.542,"endTime":679.542,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":679.542,"endTime":679.572,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":679.572,"endTime":681.272,"body":"They're, like, so excited to see-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":681.272,"endTime":681.501,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":681.501,"endTime":685.011,"body":"... Their friends who are grown-ups, and I just"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":685.011,"endTime":688.091,"body":"delight in seeing those connections. That's not"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":688.091,"endTime":692.812,"body":"something that happens on campus in chapel. Chapel is wonderful"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":692.812,"endTime":697.192,"body":"in terms of spiritual formation, but it's m- it is limited in the"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":697.192,"endTime":698.272,"body":"way that it can"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":698.861,"endTime":699.812,"body":"walk with us."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":700.572,"endTime":702.692,"body":"Chapel, the chapel team doesn't walk with you through the"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":702.692,"endTime":706.052,"body":"seasons of your life. If your grandpa dies- ... The chapel"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":706.052,"endTime":708.432,"body":"team isn't the one who's gonna walk with you through that. You"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":708.432,"endTime":712.091,"body":"need a church family. And for those who are, who are maybe not"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":712.091,"endTime":714.231,"body":"college students, but they feel like they're getting their"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":714.231,"endTime":716.761,"body":"spiritual content on YouTube, that is,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":717.451,"endTime":720.451,"body":"a unidirectional way of learning. It might check the"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":720.451,"endTime":723.032,"body":"learning box, but there are so many other things that happen at"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":723.032,"endTime":723.782,"body":"church,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":724.772,"endTime":728.172,"body":"including messy things, right? We end up with messy"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":728.172,"endTime":731.971,"body":"relationships, conflict between people, that we have to work"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":731.971,"endTime":735.432,"body":"through and learn to love one another across our differences."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":735.432,"endTime":738.341,"body":"That's really important for us to learn how to do, and the fact"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":738.341,"endTime":741.831,"body":"that YouTube comment sections are so, can be so full of"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":741.831,"endTime":742.692,"body":"vitriol-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":742.692,"endTime":742.701,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":742.701,"endTime":745.072,"body":"... Is a testament to the fact that we have not"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":745.072,"endTime":747.792,"body":"learned how to have good conversations with each other"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":747.792,"endTime":750.591,"body":"and how to love one another across our differences, and I"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":750.591,"endTime":754.131,"body":"think that's probably the fruit of people disconnecting from"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":754.131,"endTime":756.351,"body":"community and just being online."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":756.951,"endTime":759.27,"body":"... Chapels can be great. I still distinctly"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":759.27,"endTime":762.831,"body":"remember some chapels and the theme of it. I could tell you"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":762.831,"endTime":764.921,"body":"from four years at Biola, at least-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":764.921,"endTime":764.961,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":764.961,"endTime":767.072,"body":"... Probably half a dozen to a dozen that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":767.072,"endTime":771.312,"body":"were eye-opening to me. I watch YouTube and listen to podcasts a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":771.312,"endTime":773.791,"body":"lot, but the point is not that they're not bad, but they're"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":773.791,"endTime":774.53,"body":"limited."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":774.53,"endTime":775.03,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":775.03,"endTime":776.721,"body":"And they, it, you know, like, on YouTube, it's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":776.721,"endTime":780.192,"body":"not only unidirectional, it's disembodied."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":780.192,"endTime":780.511,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":780.511,"endTime":782.91,"body":"So the reason the comments are so vitriolic is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":782.91,"endTime":785.681,"body":"you're not looking at somebody face to face."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":785.681,"endTime":786.072,"body":"That's right. Right."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":786.072,"endTime":787.851,"body":"Most people wouldn't say that-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":787.851,"endTime":788.051,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":788.051,"endTime":789.41,"body":"... If they were looking at somebody."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":789.41,"endTime":789.53,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":789.53,"endTime":793.091,"body":"The church is meant to be embodied, and so"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":793.091,"endTime":796.251,"body":"those things aren't bad, but you might say the compass is church"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":796.251,"endTime":798.371,"body":"[chuckles] that's the base to interpret YouTube-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":798.371,"endTime":798.65,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":798.65,"endTime":800.91,"body":"... Not your church through the lens of some"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":800.91,"endTime":802.011,"body":"YouTube video-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":802.011,"endTime":802.211,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":802.211,"endTime":804.39,"body":"... Which sadly is happening more and more."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":804.39,"endTime":805.091,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":805.091,"endTime":808.311,"body":"Now, the title of your book is Becoming God's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":808.311,"endTime":812.15,"body":"Family. I'm curious why you think the Bible uses the imagery"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":812.15,"endTime":814.942,"body":"of family, particularly siblings, brothers-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":814.942,"endTime":814.951,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":814.951,"endTime":817.371,"body":"... And sisters in Christ, to describe the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":817.371,"endTime":817.89,"body":"church?"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":817.89,"endTime":819.932,"body":"Yeah. This is something I learned from our"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":819.932,"endTime":823.791,"body":"very own Joe Hellerman, from his book on the church- ... That has"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":823.791,"endTime":827.011,"body":"just really blown my mind. I didn't realize that in the first"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":827.011,"endTime":832.131,"body":"century, the strongest bond between any two people, the"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":832.131,"endTime":834.692,"body":"most intimate relationship, was considered the sibling"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":834.692,"endTime":836.16,"body":"relationship."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":836.16,"endTime":836.231,"body":"Huh."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":836.231,"endTime":837.932,"body":"I would have assumed that,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":838.671,"endTime":841.131,"body":"you know, a marriage would be the most intimate relationship,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":841.131,"endTime":844.451,"body":"but because of various dynamics in the first century, it- there"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":844.451,"endTime":847.371,"body":"was a deeper sense of loyalty with siblings. And so I think"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":847.371,"endTime":850.751,"body":"it's interesting that God chooses to use family language"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":850.751,"endTime":851.511,"body":"to talk about"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":852.072,"endTime":855.311,"body":"our relationship with him and with each other. If God is our"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":855.311,"endTime":859.291,"body":"Father, if we're praying to our Father in heaven, that makes all"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":859.291,"endTime":860.192,"body":"of us siblings,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":860.731,"endTime":863.932,"body":"and if the sibling relationship is the strongest bond, then that"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":863.932,"endTime":866.77,"body":"means we need to reorganize our lives and our priorities"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":867.331,"endTime":871.251,"body":"to invest in one another, to show up for each other in hard"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":871.251,"endTime":875.91,"body":"times. There's a sense of commitment across differences,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":875.91,"endTime":879.311,"body":"commitment through the seasons of life over the long haul. I"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":879.311,"endTime":882.41,"body":"think it's a- it makes a wonderful metaphor for what God"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":882.41,"endTime":885.172,"body":"wants to do, just because it's so,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":885.89,"endTime":889.111,"body":"it's so defining of our identity. Our families are so"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":889.111,"endTime":893.051,"body":"central to our identity, and the Bible is calling us to"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":893.051,"endTime":896.351,"body":"reorient our sense of identity around Jesus."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":896.351,"endTime":898.172,"body":"And I've gotta- I gotta pause on that because I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":898.172,"endTime":901.551,"body":"think that's incredibly counterintuitive."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":901.551,"endTime":902.231,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":902.231,"endTime":904.672,"body":"Like, if you, I mean, you th- take Gen Z, I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":904.672,"endTime":908.39,"body":"think family's in the top five. It's important to them, but"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":908.39,"endTime":911.631,"body":"clearly not number one. It could be our job."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":911.631,"endTime":912.011,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":912.011,"endTime":914.511,"body":"Today there's a lot of other things that can be"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":914.511,"endTime":915.591,"body":"the root of our identity."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":915.591,"endTime":915.611,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":915.611,"endTime":917.131,"body":"It could be our sexuality-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":917.131,"endTime":917.211,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":917.211,"endTime":919.111,"body":"... It could be our race, it could be a range of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":919.111,"endTime":923.41,"body":"different things that become the most definitive characteristic."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":923.41,"endTime":923.432,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":923.432,"endTime":925.091,"body":"And of course, those can be a part of our"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":925.091,"endTime":929.111,"body":"experience, but to say the definitive most important"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":929.111,"endTime":932.551,"body":"relationship at the root of our identities"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":933.15,"endTime":935.731,"body":"when the Bible was written is siblings-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":935.731,"endTime":935.86,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":935.86,"endTime":938.511,"body":"... That's a transformative narrative for how"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":938.511,"endTime":939.919,"body":"we should think about the church."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":939.919,"endTime":939.932,"body":"It is."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":939.932,"endTime":941.871,"body":"So I've gotta pause and emphasize that-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":941.871,"endTime":941.881,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":941.881,"endTime":943.851,"body":"... Because frankly, I need to think about"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":943.851,"endTime":945.071,"body":"that a little bit more myself [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":945.071,"endTime":945.331,"body":"Yeah, yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":945.331,"endTime":946.672,"body":"... As well, now that you say it."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":946.672,"endTime":948.432,"body":"And, and there's a lot of people these days talking"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":948.432,"endTime":952.571,"body":"about chosen family, like, because our biological"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":952.571,"endTime":956.051,"body":"families can be so messy and fraught with different problems,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":956.051,"endTime":958.851,"body":"that people are like, \"I'm gonna choose a new family. I'm gonna"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":958.851,"endTime":960.951,"body":"choose new people to hang out with.\" And I think what"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":960.951,"endTime":964.692,"body":"sometimes happens with a chosen family is you gather together"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":964.692,"endTime":966.611,"body":"with people who think exactly like you do,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":967.192,"endTime":970.551,"body":"and it becomes- ... A kind of echo chamber for like-minded"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":970.551,"endTime":975.311,"body":"people, and the church is not that. That's one of the"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":975.311,"endTime":978.611,"body":"things that makes the church like a family, is that we don't"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":978.611,"endTime":982.611,"body":"get to choose who we hang out with at church. It's open to"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":982.611,"endTime":985.871,"body":"whoever walks through that door, and they might not be people"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":985.871,"endTime":988.571,"body":"that we would've said, \"Oh, hey, I wanna go hang out and have"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":988.571,"endTime":991.991,"body":"coffee with you.\" \"I wanna do, like, let's go on a trip"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":991.991,"endTime":992.65,"body":"together.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":992.65,"endTime":992.932,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":992.932,"endTime":995.731,"body":"But these are the people God has brought to this"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":995.731,"endTime":999.672,"body":"community, and so we need to develop bonds with each other,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":999.672,"endTime":1002.15,"body":"even if they're people we wouldn't have chosen. And I"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1002.15,"endTime":1005.991,"body":"think we've all had that experience, probably, of like,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1005.991,"endTime":1009.791,"body":"being stuck with a family member that we would not have chosen."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1009.791,"endTime":1012.53,"body":"Like, \"Okay, this is an awkward relationship,\" or, \"This is"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1012.53,"endTime":1013.111,"body":"fraught in some way.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1013.111,"endTime":1015.451,"body":"And by the way, it's important to think that we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1015.451,"endTime":1018.221,"body":"are that family member that some people think- [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1018.221,"endTime":1018.221,"body":"Yes, exactly. [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1018.221,"endTime":1019.192,"body":"... They're stuck with."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1019.192,"endTime":1019.231,"body":"Fact. [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1019.231,"endTime":1021.53,"body":"So that's, that's a humbling thought we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1021.53,"endTime":1023.251,"body":"should all consider as well."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1023.251,"endTime":1024.011,"body":"That is a fact. [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1024.011,"endTime":1026.172,"body":"But wait, but take that a little, a little deeper."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1026.172,"endTime":1028.912,"body":"What do you say to the, to the, I think, the really common"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1028.912,"endTime":1029.621,"body":"priority"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1030.351,"endTime":1032.731,"body":"that we make in a lot of our Christian circles about family"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1032.731,"endTime":1034.55,"body":"first? You know-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1034.55,"endTime":1034.56,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1034.56,"endTime":1035.491,"body":"... Our relationship to God-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1035.491,"endTime":1035.501,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1035.501,"endTime":1037.971,"body":"... And then our relationship to our family sort"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1037.971,"endTime":1038.412,"body":"of trumps"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1038.932,"endTime":1039.991,"body":"everything else-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1039.991,"endTime":1040.172,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1040.172,"endTime":1044.172,"body":"... Including our relationships with our"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1044.172,"endTime":1045.951,"body":"quote, \"spiritual siblings.\""},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1045.951,"endTime":1047.152,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1047.152,"endTime":1047.231,"body":"W-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1047.231,"endTime":1049.871,"body":"I've, I've been in some hot conversations online on"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1049.871,"endTime":1053.251,"body":"this topic [chuckles] in recent days. And I think there's,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1053.251,"endTime":1055.951,"body":"there's something to be said here. You know, I've talked"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1055.951,"endTime":1059.412,"body":"about how this message is radical for those of us from an"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1059.412,"endTime":1062.692,"body":"individualist culture, where, you know, it's all about me and"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1062.692,"endTime":1066.912,"body":"my self-actualization. To, so to say we belong to each other is"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1066.912,"endTime":1070.891,"body":"disruptive of my goals, maybe. But I think what's really"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1070.891,"endTime":1074.471,"body":"fascinating is that even in a collectivist culture, this is a"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1074.471,"endTime":1078.051,"body":"radical message. Because what it's saying is, you aren't"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1078.051,"endTime":1081.031,"body":"primarily defined by your biological family, you're"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1081.031,"endTime":1083.991,"body":"defined by this new family. Like, your ultimate loyalty"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1083.991,"endTime":1086.932,"body":"needs to be to the family of faith, and if push comes to"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1086.932,"endTime":1091.011,"body":"shove, and you have to choose between your biological family"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1091.011,"endTime":1092.531,"body":"and the family of faith,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1093.152,"endTime":1096.871,"body":"the family of faith comes first. And so I think this actually"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1096.871,"endTime":1099.871,"body":"pushes back against some of the rhetoric I'm hearing right now"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1099.871,"endTime":1104.851,"body":"about family first. It's not that we neglect our f- physical,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1104.851,"endTime":1109.251,"body":"biological families, but there can come a moment where"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1109.251,"endTime":1114.432,"body":"there- a choice has to be made- Will I be loyal to these people,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1114.432,"endTime":1118.692,"body":"or will I follow Jesus at the cost of this relationship? And"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1118.692,"endTime":1123.321,"body":"Jesus says he came to bring a sword to divide families, and I,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1123.321,"endTime":1126.051,"body":"I think we've all probably seen families divide over"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1126.051,"endTime":1128.855,"body":"questions of faith.... You know, if you're gonna, if you're gonna"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1128.855,"endTime":1132.256,"body":"follow Jesus, if you're gonna insist on a biblical sexual"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1132.256,"endTime":1134.685,"body":"ethic, or if you're going to insist on,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1135.336,"endTime":1137.336,"body":"becoming a missionary, then we can't be,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1137.875,"endTime":1141.215,"body":"we can't be in relationship with each other."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1141.215,"endTime":1143.615,"body":"Yeah, part of, part of the reason I ask this is, you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1143.615,"endTime":1146.056,"body":"know, in Joe Hellerman's book that you referred to, that-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1146.056,"endTime":1146.066,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1146.066,"endTime":1147.395,"body":"... When the Church Was a Family."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1147.395,"endTime":1147.776,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1147.776,"endTime":1150.556,"body":"He's got, he's got some real specific examples- ..."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1150.556,"endTime":1152.076,"body":"From his own family life-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1152.615,"endTime":1154.336,"body":"... About how they took in"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1155.256,"endTime":1156.816,"body":"people from their church."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1156.816,"endTime":1156.855,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1156.855,"endTime":1159.836,"body":"And they sort of had the, they had almost had the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1159.836,"endTime":1162.096,"body":"status of adopted family members."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1162.096,"endTime":1162.246,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1162.816,"endTime":1162.895,"body":"yeah. That's good."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1162.895,"endTime":1166.415,"body":"And there were times when he put the interest of some"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1166.415,"endTime":1170.115,"body":"of these folks ahead of the interest of his own kids."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1170.115,"endTime":1172.576,"body":"What... Is that, is that consistent with how you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1172.576,"endTime":1174.355,"body":"understand this?"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1174.355,"endTime":1175.336,"body":"I think it is."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1175.996,"endTime":1179.895,"body":"And it's, it's a, it's a tough thing for us to w- to wrestle"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1179.895,"endTime":1184.236,"body":"with or reckon with, like, how do I love both families well?"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1184.236,"endTime":1187.776,"body":"And I think there is a cost to following Jesus, and sometimes"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1187.776,"endTime":1191.395,"body":"that cost is not just a cost we're choosing, but our extended"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1191.395,"endTime":1196.695,"body":"family members, you know, they ha- they are the recipients of"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1196.695,"endTime":1200.175,"body":"the collateral of that. I remember when my husband and I"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1200.175,"endTime":1203.776,"body":"decided to become missionaries in the Philippines, and we wrote"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1203.776,"endTime":1207.115,"body":"a letter to our extended family members, to our parents and our"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1207.115,"endTime":1211.395,"body":"siblings- ... To say, \"We realize that our decision to"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1211.395,"endTime":1214.695,"body":"follow Jesus to the Philippines is costing you something that"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1214.695,"endTime":1218.776,"body":"you didn't decide freely.\" \"Like, we're, we're choosing to"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1218.776,"endTime":1221.715,"body":"go, and that means there won't be family gatherings with"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1221.715,"endTime":1224.955,"body":"everyone present as much as there used to be, that our kids"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1224.955,"endTime":1227.506,"body":"won't be able to grow up with your kids in the same way that"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1227.506,"endTime":1231.615,"body":"they would have. That we won't be able to just pop in or,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1231.615,"endTime":1235.796,"body":"or help.\" And, and we recognize there is a cost to our family"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1235.796,"endTime":1239.365,"body":"members that they didn't choose, and so we wanted to acknowledge"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1239.365,"endTime":1243.635,"body":"that, but also say, \"We believe God is asking us to do this, and"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1243.635,"endTime":1245.635,"body":"He comes first.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1245.635,"endTime":1247.756,"body":"It, this feels like such a pressing question in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1247.756,"endTime":1250.996,"body":"the Church right now. Scott, you and I could do a full episode on"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1250.996,"endTime":1255.434,"body":"this, I think. When do we, when do we divide? When do we decide-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1255.434,"endTime":1255.816,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1255.816,"endTime":1258.256,"body":"... The church family goes above biological"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1258.256,"endTime":1260.236,"body":"family? Like, what does that actually look like? I haven't"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1260.236,"endTime":1261.935,"body":"heard anybody really flesh that out."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1261.935,"endTime":1263.365,"body":"Let me give, let me give an example of this."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1263.365,"endTime":1264.576,"body":"Yeah, do it."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1264.576,"endTime":1266.476,"body":"You know, this was my- when my middle son"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1266.476,"endTime":1268.556,"body":"[clears throat] and I, we were, we... He played a lot of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1268.556,"endTime":1272.096,"body":"basketball. I coached his team, and we went to, we went to a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1272.096,"endTime":1274.955,"body":"lot, a lot of tournaments out of town, and we had a lot, a lot of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1274.955,"endTime":1275.905,"body":"meals together."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1275.905,"endTime":1276.536,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1276.536,"endTime":1278.355,"body":"And I remember there was this one particular"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1278.355,"endTime":1281.996,"body":"time when we were on a travel trip, and we were... I was"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1281.996,"endTime":1284.875,"body":"really looking forward just to spending time with him."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1284.875,"endTime":1288.296,"body":"And we were over a meal, and there was a guy standing outside"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1288.296,"endTime":1292.115,"body":"the restaurant who we knew, I knew needed a meal."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1292.115,"endTime":1292.955,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1292.955,"endTime":1294.276,"body":"And I asked him to join us."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1295.175,"endTime":1298.276,"body":"And I knew that it was gonna disrupt the time that I had"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1298.276,"endTime":1299.576,"body":"planned with my son."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1299.576,"endTime":1300.115,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1300.115,"endTime":1304.076,"body":"But years later, he re- he still remembers that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1304.076,"endTime":1308.496,"body":"episode- ... About how we took this guy in, fed him a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1308.496,"endTime":1312.296,"body":"meal, you know, treated him with dignity, had com- had"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1312.296,"endTime":1314.855,"body":"conversation with him. You know- ... Treated him like a person,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1314.855,"endTime":1316.296,"body":"not just somebody- ... To be fed."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1316.296,"endTime":1316.855,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1316.855,"endTime":1319.076,"body":"But years later, he still remembered that-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1319.076,"endTime":1319.195,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1319.195,"endTime":1321.855,"body":"... As something really powerful. And, and an"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1321.855,"endTime":1325.895,"body":"exam- an example that, you know, said to him, \"M- you know, maybe"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1325.895,"endTime":1328.285,"body":"I'm not always the most important thing.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1329.306,"endTime":1329.336,"body":"Uh-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1329.336,"endTime":1331.976,"body":"It is important for our kids to know that. And I"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1331.976,"endTime":1334.816,"body":"feel like as missionaries, because we were far from home,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1334.816,"endTime":1337.036,"body":"we experienced, we were recipients of that kind of"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1337.036,"endTime":1340.516,"body":"hospitality over and over again, as other missionaries"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1340.516,"endTime":1343.736,"body":"invited us into their homes and into their families, and we"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1343.736,"endTime":1346.695,"body":"spent holidays together. And, and there was one point in our"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1346.695,"endTime":1349.375,"body":"life where we had spent more Christmases with our mission"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1349.375,"endTime":1352.855,"body":"team than we had, you know, our kids had, than with their"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1352.855,"endTime":1356.096,"body":"biological family, with their grandparents, but we became like"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1356.096,"endTime":1359.816,"body":"family. And I think that is actually what God is calling us"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1359.816,"endTime":1362.895,"body":"to do, is to become like family with other followers of"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1362.895,"endTime":1363.036,"body":"Jesus."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1363.036,"endTime":1364.635,"body":"See, I think this raises questions you and I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1364.635,"endTime":1368.155,"body":"have to, have to flesh out in a future episode because there's a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1368.155,"endTime":1371.836,"body":"difference between with your son being missional towards those"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1371.836,"endTime":1373.056,"body":"who need a meal-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1373.056,"endTime":1373.455,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1373.455,"endTime":1374.776,"body":"... And sacrificing, not really"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1374.776,"endTime":1377.536,"body":"sacrificing, but time with your son, with a literal stranger."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1377.536,"endTime":1379.455,"body":"You don't know if he's a believer or not."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1379.455,"endTime":1379.895,"body":"True."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1379.895,"endTime":1380.076,"body":"Yeah, that's true."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1380.076,"endTime":1383.315,"body":"When do we sacrifice for the Church with"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1383.315,"endTime":1384.976,"body":"our biological family?"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1384.976,"endTime":1385.336,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1385.336,"endTime":1387.556,"body":"That's where we have to really figure some of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1387.556,"endTime":1389.026,"body":"those questions out."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1389.026,"endTime":1389.036,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1389.036,"endTime":1391.556,"body":"And I think it'd be helpful, but we can come back"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1391.556,"endTime":1393.204,"body":"to that. You say, quote,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1393.996,"endTime":1396.695,"body":"Carmen- \"The calling of the Church is not to help each of us"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1396.695,"endTime":1399.895,"body":"live our best life now.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1399.895,"endTime":1400.425,"body":"Darn. [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1400.425,"endTime":1400.435,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1400.435,"endTime":1402.895,"body":"Why- Right? It's like you're just-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1402.895,"endTime":1402.905,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1402.905,"endTime":1404.875,"body":"... You're pushing on these narratives that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1404.875,"endTime":1405.695,"body":"we all want."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1405.695,"endTime":1406.046,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1406.046,"endTime":1409.576,"body":"Why not? And specifically, what is the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1409.576,"endTime":1410.655,"body":"calling of the Church?"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1410.655,"endTime":1411.816,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1412.375,"endTime":1418.336,"body":"Again, self-actualization is not the main goal of church"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1418.336,"endTime":1421.236,"body":"involvement or the Christian life, or even it should not be"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1421.236,"endTime":1425.796,"body":"my main goal. Self-actualization is something that the, that the"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1425.796,"endTime":1429.556,"body":"West has said matters more than anything else. Like, \"I'm gonna"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1429.556,"endTime":1433.336,"body":"get what I want at any cost.\" And the Church is calling us to"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1433.336,"endTime":1437.215,"body":"lay down our rights, to lay down our desires for the sake of"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1437.215,"endTime":1441.976,"body":"others. And so Christ calls us to sacrifice on others' behalf."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1441.976,"endTime":1446.955,"body":"He calls us to serve. He, he calls us into inconvenience. And"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1446.955,"endTime":1449.816,"body":"so what is the mission of the Church? I would describe our"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1449.816,"endTime":1454.036,"body":"mission as a, we're a community of people, multigenerational,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1454.036,"endTime":1459.556,"body":"multicultural family, who gather to wait for Christ's return."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1459.556,"endTime":1464.135,"body":"This is, I think, the m- the most pr- the primary vocation"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1464.135,"endTime":1467.336,"body":"that we have, is to wait. We are people who gather together in"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1467.336,"endTime":1470.855,"body":"recognition that we can't solve the world's problems, that we"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1470.855,"endTime":1474.175,"body":"are waiting for the one who can- ... And that He said He would"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1474.175,"endTime":1478.036,"body":"come back, and we collectively recognize that that's the most"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1478.036,"endTime":1482.996,"body":"important thing ahead. And while we're waiting, we hear the"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1482.996,"endTime":1487.415,"body":"Word preached, we gather in worship, and we participate in"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1487.415,"endTime":1489.296,"body":"God's work in the world together."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1489.855,"endTime":1492.895,"body":"And that- ... I mean, there's more to it than that, but that's"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1492.895,"endTime":1496.236,"body":"probably the starting place- ... For what the Church is."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1496.743,"endTime":1499.003,"body":"... So Carmen, you've, you mentioned a couple"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1499.003,"endTime":1504.523,"body":"times that the church is this great place where we can,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1504.523,"endTime":1507.804,"body":"you know, sort of put ourselves aside. You also mentioned that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1507.804,"endTime":1508.864,"body":"it's a messy place."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1508.864,"endTime":1509.564,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1509.564,"endTime":1512.044,"body":"So how do you help people navigate the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1512.044,"endTime":1513.094,"body":"messiness of that?"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1513.094,"endTime":1513.124,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1513.124,"endTime":1516.544,"body":"And sort of, maybe a related question, you know,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1516.544,"endTime":1517.983,"body":"when would you advise people"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1518.564,"endTime":1520.824,"body":"to leave the church that they're in?"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1520.824,"endTime":1520.844,"body":"Yeah. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1520.844,"endTime":1521.423,"body":"Great question."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1522.223,"endTime":1525.384,"body":"So I do have a section in the book on reasons"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1525.384,"endTime":1528.844,"body":"to leave a church, and I think, you know, I could"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1528.844,"endTime":1531.773,"body":"picture some readers being like, \"All right, let me see. Do I...\""},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1531.773,"endTime":1531.773,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1531.773,"endTime":1531.773,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1531.773,"endTime":1533.844,"body":"... You know, \" 'Cause I'm ready to leave.\" And"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1533.844,"endTime":1535.573,"body":"I- my list is pretty short."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1537.433,"endTime":1540.324,"body":"It, I offer just three reasons to leave a church, not"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1540.324,"endTime":1542.023,"body":"that this would be an exhaustive list."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1542.023,"endTime":1542.463,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1542.463,"endTime":1546.104,"body":"But if there is abuse happening in your church,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1546.104,"endTime":1548.743,"body":"and it's being covered up by leadership rather than dealt"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1548.743,"endTime":1551.554,"body":"with, then that's not a good church to be part of."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1551.554,"endTime":1553.483,"body":"And this is spiritual, emotional-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1553.483,"endTime":1554.263,"body":"Physical, would-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1554.263,"endTime":1554.804,"body":"Physical."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1554.804,"endTime":1555.003,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1555.003,"endTime":1556.874,"body":"Sexual should be the obvious one."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1556.874,"endTime":1557.473,"body":"Obviously."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1557.473,"endTime":1557.784,"body":"But yeah."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1557.784,"endTime":1558.124,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1558.124,"endTime":1558.503,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1559.403,"endTime":1562.483,"body":"If there's a form of leadership that's very"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1562.483,"endTime":1566.203,"body":"authoritarian, instead of inviting all believers to bring"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1566.203,"endTime":1570.423,"body":"their gifts to serve the body, if it's, if it's, c- the kind of"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1570.423,"endTime":1573.624,"body":"leader that absorbs all the roles into himself"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1574.324,"endTime":1577.183,"body":"and won't let anyone else participate, a kind of highly"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1577.183,"endTime":1578.794,"body":"controlling version- ... Of"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1579.344,"endTime":1582.203,"body":"Christianity, I think it's time to go."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1583.163,"endTime":1587.124,"body":"And if the Bible has been set aside, if the church is no"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1587.124,"endTime":1590.263,"body":"longer saying, \"This is... You know, the buck stops here. This"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1590.263,"endTime":1593.403,"body":"is the Word of God, and we're, we're living by this,\" then it's"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1593.403,"endTime":1598.584,"body":"time to leave. But beyond that, there are just a myriad of other"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1598.584,"endTime":1602.114,"body":"reasons that people leave that I think are unnecessary,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1603.104,"endTime":1606.183,"body":"that we should persevere through our differences, that"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1606.183,"endTime":1609.763,"body":"it's okay to not think exactly the same as your pastor on"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1609.763,"endTime":1613.903,"body":"things. It's okay to have people who have different priorities"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1613.903,"endTime":1617.864,"body":"than you do. And I'm encouraging people to stick it"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1617.864,"endTime":1621.723,"body":"out through differences. But Scott, you asked about the"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1621.723,"endTime":1624.903,"body":"messiness- ... Of church, and I would say we live in a time, you"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1624.903,"endTime":1627.084,"body":"know, the- for the past 10 years, there's been a lot of"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1627.084,"endTime":1631.943,"body":"attention to abuse in the church and cover-up of abuse, and so I"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1631.943,"endTime":1634.983,"body":"didn't want to have this kind of rosy picture of the church,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1634.983,"endTime":1636.413,"body":"like, \"It's all great,\""},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1637.223,"endTime":1641.104,"body":"because it isn't all great everywhere. And so part of, part"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1641.104,"endTime":1645.104,"body":"of my goal was to show how the Bible addresses things like"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1645.104,"endTime":1648.544,"body":"abuse in community. And so I begin in Genesis with the story"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1648.544,"endTime":1650.743,"body":"of Abraham and Sarah, who,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1651.263,"endTime":1655.023,"body":"acquire an Egyptian slave and then mistreat her so that she"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1655.023,"endTime":1655.624,"body":"runs away."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1656.183,"endTime":1659.804,"body":"And I find it really powerful that the Lord does not"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1660.324,"endTime":1663.663,"body":"show up to Abraham's tent and pack him- pat him on the back"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1663.663,"endTime":1667.403,"body":"and say, \"You, you know, you were a, you were a man. You"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1667.403,"endTime":1670.804,"body":"did the right thing. You just show her who's boss.\" No, He"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1670.804,"endTime":1675.423,"body":"shows up- ... In the wilderness with Hagar. He offers her food"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1675.423,"endTime":1679.844,"body":"and water. He gives her hope for the future and a sense of,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1679.844,"endTime":1685.304,"body":"like, her worth is not defined by this abusive couple that has"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1685.304,"endTime":1688.203,"body":"been mistreating her. And I think that's a really important"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1688.203,"endTime":1691.384,"body":"starting point- ... So that we can speak to anyone who's been"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1691.384,"endTime":1694.503,"body":"hurt by the church or marginalized, by Christian"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1694.503,"endTime":1696.893,"body":"leaders, that God is actually,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1697.483,"endTime":1701.304,"body":"seeking you in the wilderness, and He wants to minister to you."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1701.304,"endTime":1702.624,"body":"Scott, I have, I have one last question-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1702.624,"endTime":1702.634,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1702.634,"endTime":1703.223,"body":"... If I can."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1703.223,"endTime":1704.003,"body":"Go for it."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1704.003,"endTime":1707.144,"body":"If you, what would your advice be to somebody"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1707.144,"endTime":1711.144,"body":"who suspects that the Bible's being set aside? Which I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1711.144,"endTime":1711.334,"body":"think-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1711.334,"endTime":1711.334,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1711.334,"endTime":1713.364,"body":"... What you mean by that is authority or"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1713.364,"endTime":1715.223,"body":"essential teachings."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1715.223,"endTime":1716.064,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1716.064,"endTime":1719.104,"body":"Or they suspect there's spiritual abuse."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1719.104,"endTime":1719.604,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1719.604,"endTime":1722.663,"body":"How should they go about navigating this, and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1722.663,"endTime":1726.723,"body":"how should they not go about navigating this within the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1726.723,"endTime":1727.503,"body":"church?"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1727.503,"endTime":1730.064,"body":"Yeah. Oh, there's all sorts of tools at our"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1730.064,"endTime":1731.513,"body":"disposal these days, aren't there?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1731.513,"endTime":1731.544,"body":"Yes, there are. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1731.544,"endTime":1734.003,"body":"Like, you can just, like, trumpet things"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1734.003,"endTime":1737.544,"body":"publicly, social- use social media, take to the airwaves to"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1737.544,"endTime":1741.284,"body":"try to, bring attention to it. And I do think there is a time"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1741.284,"endTime":1745.003,"body":"to use the airwaves, to bring- ... Attention to abuse"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1745.003,"endTime":1749.403,"body":"that's not being dealt with. But I think, you know, Matthew 18"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1749.403,"endTime":1750.763,"body":"talks about going,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1751.324,"endTime":1755.183,"body":"face-to-face with people, and I think if we have a posture of"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1755.183,"endTime":1760.364,"body":"curiosity and generosity towards those we disagree with, it, That"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1760.364,"endTime":1763.163,"body":"can be helpful because sometimes what happens is not that the"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1763.163,"endTime":1766.084,"body":"Bible's been set aside, but that someone's coming to a different"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1766.084,"endTime":1769.784,"body":"interpretation of it. And I think we have a tendency to"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1769.784,"endTime":1772.443,"body":"interpret anyone who has a different interpretation than"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1772.443,"endTime":1776.503,"body":"mine is a heretic, and we use really strong language to"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1776.503,"endTime":1779.703,"body":"dismiss them or say, \"You're, you don't hold to Scripture.\""},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1779.703,"endTime":1783.604,"body":"And I think what's important to recognize is that there is a"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1783.604,"endTime":1787.163,"body":"possibility of different views that arise from this same book,"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1787.163,"endTime":1790.703,"body":"and we can have a shared commitment to Scripture and form"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1790.703,"endTime":1794.084,"body":"different conclusions. And I think as much as possible, if"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1794.084,"endTime":1797.044,"body":"there is that shared commitment to Scripture, that we should try"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1797.044,"endTime":1800.794,"body":"to hang on through our differences and work them out."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1800.794,"endTime":1802.243,"body":"I think it, especially when we talk about"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1802.243,"endTime":1806.183,"body":"Matthew 18, you know, this is a brother or sister who sinned"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1806.183,"endTime":1807.054,"body":"against one another."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1807.054,"endTime":1807.054,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1807.054,"endTime":1809.384,"body":"It gets messy when you're talking about"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1809.384,"endTime":1810.074,"body":"leadership-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1810.074,"endTime":1810.074,"body":"Mm-hmm, mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1810.074,"endTime":1811.604,"body":"... And other dynamics. I don't know that it"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1811.604,"endTime":1812.443,"body":"perfectly-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1812.443,"endTime":1812.763,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1812.763,"endTime":1813.334,"body":"... Maps on."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1813.334,"endTime":1813.364,"body":"It's true."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1813.364,"endTime":1815.884,"body":"But I think that the principle is, my dad always"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1815.884,"endTime":1818.344,"body":"taught me, he's like, \"Give the benefit of the doubt.\""},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1818.344,"endTime":1819.013,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1819.013,"endTime":1822.044,"body":"\"Go to the source. Do your homework first.\""},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1822.044,"endTime":1822.233,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1822.233,"endTime":1823.683,"body":"\"Don't gossip.\""},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1823.683,"endTime":1824.003,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1824.003,"endTime":1825.584,"body":"\"See if you can reconcile,\""},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1825.584,"endTime":1826.013,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1826.013,"endTime":1827.324,"body":"... \"like, before you do something"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1827.324,"endTime":1828.814,"body":"[chuckles] public and start gossiping-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1828.814,"endTime":1828.814,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1828.814,"endTime":1830.354,"body":"... And drawing other people in-"},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1830.354,"endTime":1830.354,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1830.354,"endTime":1832.243,"body":"... Find out first and hear different"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1832.243,"endTime":1833.634,"body":"perspectives.\""},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1833.634,"endTime":1833.644,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1833.644,"endTime":1836.453,"body":"And sadly, that doesn't often happen."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1836.453,"endTime":1836.544,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1836.544,"endTime":1838.763,"body":"I ask people, I say, \"You know what? Like, put"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1838.763,"endTime":1841.963,"body":"yourself in your pastor's position. Think about how many"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1841.963,"endTime":1844.943,"body":"complaints he's getting, how many people, and how much"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1844.943,"endTime":1848.023,"body":"sideways energy this can take for a pastor.\""},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1848.023,"endTime":1848.093,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1848.093,"endTime":1850.804,"body":"\"Approach a pastor, if you're concerned, in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1850.804,"endTime":1853.703,"body":"a way you would want somebody to approach you.\""},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1853.703,"endTime":1854.263,"body":"Yes, yes."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1854.263,"endTime":1856.544,"body":"Like, these are just basic principles that I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1856.544,"endTime":1858.763,"body":"wish more people [chuckles] would carry out"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1859.304,"endTime":1861.784,"body":"when they have concerns."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1861.784,"endTime":1864.423,"body":"Well, I will give you the, that last question."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1864.423,"endTime":1864.844,"body":"All right!"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1864.844,"endTime":1865.044,"body":"And, uh-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1865.044,"endTime":1865.564,"body":"I'll take it."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1865.564,"endTime":1867.703,"body":"This is great stuff, Carmen. Thank you so much for"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1867.703,"endTime":1869.864,"body":"being with us. I want to recommend to our listeners and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1869.864,"endTime":1870.203,"body":"viewers"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1870.763,"endTime":1874.203,"body":"your book, Becoming God's Family. It's the third, actually"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1874.203,"endTime":1875.673,"body":"the third of a series."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1875.673,"endTime":1875.683,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1875.683,"endTime":1877.864,"body":"And I think, I see you've brought the other two as"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1877.864,"endTime":1878.093,"body":"well, so."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1878.093,"endTime":1878.983,"body":"I've got the other two here, yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1878.983,"endTime":1881.203,"body":"You show Being in God's Image and Bearing God's"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1881.203,"endTime":1881.574,"body":"Name."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1881.574,"endTime":1881.584,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1881.584,"endTime":1884.403,"body":"Both... It's a, it's a wonderful trilogy. You will"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1884.403,"endTime":1888.864,"body":"learn so much about biblical theology- ... How God's"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1888.864,"endTime":1891.683,"body":"plan, how God's revelation of Himself and His people"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1891.683,"endTime":1895.824,"body":"unfolds- ... Through biblical history. It's great stuff, and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1895.824,"endTime":1898.403,"body":"appreciate the, particularly this one on the application to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1898.403,"endTime":1899.044,"body":"the church."},{"speaker":"Carmen Imes","startTime":1899.044,"endTime":1899.864,"body":"Thank you so much."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1900.544,"endTime":1902.284,"body":"This has been an episode of the podcast Think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1902.284,"endTime":1905.523,"body":"Biblically- Conversations on Faith and Culture, brought to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1905.523,"endTime":1908.564,"body":"you by Talbot School of Theology at Biola University, with"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1908.564,"endTime":1911.203,"body":"offering programs in Southern California and online. In fact,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1911.203,"endTime":1913.963,"body":"we've got more master's and bachelor's programs in"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1913.963,"endTime":1917.453,"body":"apologetics, philosophy, Old and New Testament, theology,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1917.453,"endTime":1920.364,"body":"marriage and family therapy, pastoral ministry, spiritual"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1920.364,"endTime":1922.324,"body":"formation. I think I've got them all."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1922.324,"endTime":1922.784,"body":"Pretty close. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1922.784,"endTime":1927.263,"body":"Most, most of them. Visit biola.edu/talbot in order"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1927.263,"endTime":1930.604,"body":"to learn more. Please feel free to email us if you have comments"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1930.604,"endTime":1933.384,"body":"or questions. We love, we love the questions that you're"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1933.384,"endTime":1938.223,"body":"sending in to us. Send by thinkbiblically@biola.edu. If"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1938.223,"endTime":1941.044,"body":"you enjoyed today's conversation with Dr. Carmen Imes, give us a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1941.044,"endTime":1943.763,"body":"rating on your podcast app. Please share it with a friend,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1943.763,"endTime":1947.023,"body":"and join us on Friday for our weekly cultural update. In the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1947.023,"endTime":1950.144,"body":"meantime, thanks for listening, and remember, think biblically"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1950.144,"endTime":1957.784,"body":"about everything. [upbeat music]"}]}