{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":0.1,"endTime":3.48,"body":"[upbeat music] What does it mean to be"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":3.48,"endTime":7.48,"body":"Protestant, and why are we Protestant? What is a Protestant"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":7.48,"endTime":11.5,"body":"view of the sacraments, the gospel, and the scriptures? Back"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":11.5,"endTime":14.939,"body":"to discuss these issues is author and Biola University"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":14.939,"endTime":15.48,"body":"professor"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":16.059,"endTime":19.14,"body":"Fred Sanders. This is an episode of the Think Biblically podcast."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":19.14,"endTime":20.26,"body":"I'm your host, Sean McDowell."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":20.26,"endTime":22.019,"body":"I'm your co-host, Scott Rae."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":22.019,"endTime":24.059,"body":"Fred, this is a conversation I've been wanting"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":24.059,"endTime":27.179,"body":"to have for a long time, and you're the perfect person to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":27.179,"endTime":30.94,"body":"talk about it, in my estimation. You have argued in blogs and in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":30.94,"endTime":35.439,"body":"other forums that Protestant is not the most helpful name for"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":35.439,"endTime":38.619,"body":"our movement, 'cause it doesn't stand for anything positive, but"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":38.619,"endTime":42.359,"body":"just implies protest. So what does it mean [chuckles] to be"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":42.359,"endTime":45.38,"body":"Protestant, and what do you think might be a better name for"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":45.38,"endTime":46.38,"body":"our movement?"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":47.34,"endTime":48.679,"body":"Yeah, so we're stuck with the name."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":48.679,"endTime":48.719,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":48.719,"endTime":50.619,"body":"You can't really rebrand at this point. It goes,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":50.619,"endTime":53.859,"body":"it goes way back into the 1500s. But something has changed in the"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":53.859,"endTime":56.38,"body":"English language since then, where- ... The word Protestant"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":56.38,"endTime":60.579,"body":"used to mean, from the Latin protestare, to hold forth, to"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":60.579,"endTime":64.439,"body":"have a view, to advocate for it passionately. That, that's not a"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":64.439,"endTime":68.62,"body":"word root we use in English in any way. If we say protest, it"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":68.62,"endTime":70.859,"body":"means mainly you're mad about something-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":70.859,"endTime":70.89,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":70.89,"endTime":72.879,"body":"... And you're gonna protest it, and that's the"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":72.879,"endTime":76.34,"body":"reason you're talking at all- ... Is to say no to something."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":76.34,"endTime":79.64,"body":"So protesting has just kind of poisoned our use of the word. Is"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":79.64,"endTime":82.819,"body":"there a better word? The problem with thinking about Protestants"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":82.819,"endTime":85.819,"body":"as mainly protesters, and again, let me make clear, that's a"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":85.819,"endTime":89.18,"body":"bogus etymology. That's, that's not where that word comes from."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":89.18,"endTime":93.7,"body":"We're not anti-Catholics as our defining identity. A better..."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":93.7,"endTime":96.799,"body":"What, what that term leaves out is the idea that we are holding"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":96.799,"endTime":100.28,"body":"forth a positive teaching about Christianity, and that we're"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":100.28,"endTime":103.319,"body":"passionate about it, and that we're part of the one Christian"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":103.319,"endTime":106.68,"body":"Church of all ages- ... And we have an idea for how to reform"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":106.68,"endTime":106.909,"body":"it."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":107.64,"endTime":110.42,"body":"So you could link up to the word Reformation and say Reformation"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":110.42,"endTime":110.89,"body":"Christians-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":110.89,"endTime":110.959,"body":"Okay"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":110.959,"endTime":112.48,"body":"... Is a nice, helpful way to kind of"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":112.48,"endTime":115.459,"body":"historically tag it. It'd be cool to say we're in the"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":115.459,"endTime":118.7,"body":"Reformed Church, but again, branding-wise, um-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":118.7,"endTime":118.98,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":118.98,"endTime":121.54,"body":"... That means the Magisterial Calvinists"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":121.54,"endTime":125.299,"body":"who are not Lutheran or etc., etc. So that words out."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":125.92,"endTime":128.699,"body":"So Fred, how... Given the Reformation was in the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":128.699,"endTime":133.18,"body":"1500s, and that the sort of the birth of Protestantism was"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":133.18,"endTime":136.4,"body":"around that time, how should we view the Church before"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":137.18,"endTime":137.939,"body":"the Reformation?"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":138.939,"endTime":140.34,"body":"Yeah, that's a great question, and"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":140.34,"endTime":141.71,"body":"really important, too, because"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":142.24,"endTime":145.379,"body":"it's possible to sort of install a denominational grid on how you"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":145.379,"endTime":149.28,"body":"think about these things before you have a historical grid. And,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":149.28,"endTime":150.25,"body":"and I think-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":150.25,"endTime":150.25,"body":"That's a good point"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":150.25,"endTime":151.62,"body":"... You're right to say, \"Oh, you know, they've"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":151.62,"endTime":154.56,"body":"got 2,000 years of history here, divide it up into four"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":154.56,"endTime":158.319,"body":"quarters,\" and if you just wanna think of your church as only"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":158.319,"endTime":161.28,"body":"starting in the fourth quarter, you're already sort of,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":161.28,"endTime":162.979,"body":"cattywampus, to use the technical term, [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":162.979,"endTime":163.58,"body":"right?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":163.58,"endTime":163.59,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":163.59,"endTime":165.159,"body":"'Cause you need to install the historical grid"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":165.159,"endTime":168.74,"body":"first and say, \"Oh, this goes all the way back, and the Church"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":168.74,"endTime":171.719,"body":"I'm in is the Church founded by Jesus Christ, carried out by the"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":171.719,"endTime":175.0,"body":"Apo- by the Apostles, and it didn't sort of go into a time"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":175.0,"endTime":178.62,"body":"capsule and vanish for 1,500 years, and it wasn't a thin"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":178.62,"endTime":181.939,"body":"trickle of marginal kind of weirdos that were my church all"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":181.939,"endTime":185.319,"body":"the way back.\" I bring you good news that the entire Christian"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":185.319,"endTime":188.84,"body":"tradition belongs to Protestant Christians. Now, something big"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":188.84,"endTime":191.479,"body":"happened in the around... In the 1500s, of course, and then"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":191.479,"endTime":194.02,"body":"that's where it's legitimate to talk about distinct sorts of"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":194.02,"endTime":197.759,"body":"confessions or denominations. At that point, you could put the"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":197.759,"endTime":201.02,"body":"denominational grid in place and start thinking that way, but you"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":201.02,"endTime":204.439,"body":"don't wanna let that grid trick you out of owning three-quarters"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":204.439,"endTime":205.58,"body":"of the Christian tradition."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":205.58,"endTime":208.3,"body":"So be- say a little bit more about when you s- when"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":208.3,"endTime":209.789,"body":"you said pr- basically,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":210.58,"endTime":212.58,"body":"f- most of church history is essentially the Protestant"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":212.58,"endTime":213.259,"body":"tradition."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":213.259,"endTime":213.669,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":213.669,"endTime":215.58,"body":"W- spell out a little bit more what you mean by"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":215.58,"endTime":216.06,"body":"that."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":216.06,"endTime":217.5,"body":"Yeah. So if you're trying to get your"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":217.5,"endTime":219.68,"body":"bearings on this, you could think, \"Okay, at some point in"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":219.68,"endTime":224.159,"body":"the early 1500s, somebody kicked out Martin Luther for teaching"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":224.159,"endTime":226.919,"body":"justification by grace alone, through faith alone, and sola"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":226.919,"endTime":229.539,"body":"Scriptura.\" Someone heard him teaching that stuff, which I"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":229.539,"endTime":232.96,"body":"like, and said, \"Anathema, you're out. We're not gonna"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":232.96,"endTime":235.979,"body":"reform and take that on board. We are instead expelling you.\""},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":235.979,"endTime":239.0,"body":"Now, whoever did that is not on my team, to speak"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":239.0,"endTime":241.009,"body":"denominationally, to speak in terms- ... Of teams and,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":241.009,"endTime":241.919,"body":"and that."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":242.479,"endTime":244.36,"body":"But if you try to think back before that, well, okay, that"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":244.36,"endTime":249.24,"body":"was 1517. What about 1417? What about 1317? What about 1217? Are"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":249.24,"endTime":250.289,"body":"all those people also"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":251.3,"endTime":255.52,"body":"not on my team and against the Reformation teaching? Well, and"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":255.52,"endTime":258.6,"body":"then you start realizing, oh, well, Thomas Aquinas was 1274."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":258.6,"endTime":261.939,"body":"Now, denominationally speaking, he agreed with some"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":261.939,"endTime":265.22,"body":"things that we would call Roman Catholic now, but historically"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":265.22,"endTime":269.139,"body":"speaking, he was before the Reformation turning point, and"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":269.139,"endTime":272.11,"body":"so I'd like to say, \"I think Aquinas is mine.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":272.11,"endTime":272.11,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":272.11,"endTime":272.908,"body":"And you see where this is going."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":272.908,"endTime":272.92,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":272.92,"endTime":274.24,"body":"You go further back, \"Hey, Bernard of"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":274.24,"endTime":275.889,"body":"Clairvaux, I think he's mine.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":275.889,"endTime":275.889,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":275.889,"endTime":277.759,"body":"\"Says some things about Mary that are not the way"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":277.759,"endTime":280.839,"body":"I would put things, but that guy is completely my intellectual"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":280.839,"endTime":283.279,"body":"property, part of my Christian heritage, part of my"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":283.279,"endTime":286.279,"body":"birthright.\" If you jump all the way back to, like, Augustine of"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":286.279,"endTime":290.379,"body":"Hippo, you know, Athanasius of Alexandria, Irenaeus of Lyon,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":290.379,"endTime":293.339,"body":"the Apostles, you kind of see where this goes. There's a"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":293.339,"endTime":297.48,"body":"turning point in 1517, but you shouldn't absolutize that and"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":297.48,"endTime":300.779,"body":"say everything before it doesn't count as mine. The default for a"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":300.779,"endTime":303.639,"body":"good Protestant is, \"That all counts as mine.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":303.639,"endTime":305.5,"body":"So if I could, like, sum up what you're saying"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":305.5,"endTime":308.139,"body":"and make sure I'm tracking with you, there's a big split in the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":308.139,"endTime":311.579,"body":"1500s between Catholics and Protestants, but what we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":311.579,"endTime":315.259,"body":"understand to be Protestant, which we're gonna get to,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":315.259,"endTime":318.939,"body":"scripture, grace, sacraments, etc., even though there are some"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":318.939,"endTime":322.439,"body":"differences with some of these leaders you said, like maybe"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":322.439,"endTime":325.74,"body":"Irenaeus, maybe Aquinas, you're saying they're a part of the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":325.74,"endTime":329.72,"body":"larger global church, and you think Protestants get the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":329.72,"endTime":332.36,"body":"answers right to these questions, which go back to the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":332.36,"endTime":335.24,"body":"beginning, Jesus, the Apostles, and the scripture itself. Is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":335.24,"endTime":335.839,"body":"that fair?"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":335.839,"endTime":338.879,"body":"Yeah. So one of the charges against Protestants,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":339.639,"endTime":343.379,"body":"in the 1500s was that they were not patristic, that they were"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":343.379,"endTime":346.079,"body":"not traditional, that they were not historical. You can think"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":346.079,"endTime":348.0,"body":"about different ways to address that charge. That's what"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":348.0,"endTime":351.439,"body":"Cardinal Sadoleto, who I think was the- ... Bishop of Geneva,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":351.439,"endTime":354.699,"body":"the Roman Catholic Bishop of Geneva, said to John Calvin."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":354.699,"endTime":357.04,"body":"Think about how to respond to that. Calvin's response, and the"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":357.04,"endTime":361.079,"body":"standard Reformation response, was, \"No, we're the ones being"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":361.079,"endTime":364.819,"body":"traditional and patristic and in touch with the great tradition."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":364.819,"endTime":367.759,"body":"There have been some recent deviations from that, where"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":367.759,"endTime":370.92,"body":"things have hardened into a Roman Catholic deviation from"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":370.92,"endTime":373.552,"body":"the great tradition.\"... The Reformation was an attempt to"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":373.552,"endTime":377.492,"body":"get back to the Church Fathers, and, a lot of the Reformers were"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":377.492,"endTime":379.891,"body":"great scholars of the Church Fathers."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":379.891,"endTime":381.992,"body":"So that's what you mean by making the Church"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":381.992,"endTime":385.612,"body":"more catholic, lowercase C. Talk about that a little bit, if you"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":385.612,"endTime":386.151,"body":"will."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":386.151,"endTime":388.132,"body":"Yeah, if you take the word Catholic in its"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":388.132,"endTime":390.572,"body":"original meaning, it's from the Greek through the Latin,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":390.572,"endTime":394.312,"body":"according to the whole, holistic, universal, total."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":395.721,"endTime":398.132,"body":"Then you can- once you define it that way, once it means that in"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":398.132,"endTime":401.331,"body":"your mind, and not the name of a particular denomination, you can"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":401.331,"endTime":402.242,"body":"kind of pick up on how"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":402.851,"endTime":406.072,"body":"paradoxical it is to call something Roman Catholic. And,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":406.072,"endTime":407.812,"body":"you know, not to be snarky, but the question would be something"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":407.812,"endTime":410.502,"body":"like, \"Well, which is it? Is it Roman or is it Catholic?\""},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":410.502,"endTime":412.922,"body":"[laughing] Like, is it local and tied to one particular-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":412.922,"endTime":412.942,"body":"That's great"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":412.942,"endTime":413.932,"body":"... Organization?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":413.932,"endTime":413.971,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":413.971,"endTime":415.271,"body":"Or is it universal?"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":415.911,"endTime":418.791,"body":"I could start calling my church the Total Church, [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":418.791,"endTime":420.692,"body":"right? And then you'd say, \"Well, yeah, but that's a brand"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":420.692,"endTime":422.391,"body":"name,\" right?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":422.391,"endTime":424.672,"body":"Yeah, I mean, I- every- almost every week, I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":424.672,"endTime":427.492,"body":"affirm that I believe in the Holy Catholic Church."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":427.492,"endTime":428.192,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":428.192,"endTime":428.372,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":428.372,"endTime":429.872,"body":"Again, in English, we've had semantic"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":429.872,"endTime":431.812,"body":"drift over the last four or five centuries."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":431.812,"endTime":433.172,"body":"But I think it's, I think it's important for our"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":433.172,"endTime":435.612,"body":"listeners and viewers to be aware that there's a,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":435.612,"endTime":439.331,"body":"there's a big difference between capital C Catholic and lower C-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":439.331,"endTime":440.211,"body":"... Catholic."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":440.211,"endTime":440.651,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":440.651,"endTime":442.911,"body":"And we, what we are affirming is the lower C"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":442.911,"endTime":446.211,"body":"catholic in that universal aspect of the Church."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":446.211,"endTime":448.552,"body":"Yeah, yeah, which is to say, we're attempting to"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":448.552,"endTime":451.812,"body":"reform and correct by Scripture, the one Church."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":452.812,"endTime":455.372,"body":"All right, so tell us what a unique Protestant"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":455.372,"endTime":458.471,"body":"view of Scripture would be. And of course, when we say a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":458.471,"endTime":462.451,"body":"Protestant view of Scripture, you don't mean as opposed to a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":462.451,"endTime":464.091,"body":"capital C Catholic-"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":464.091,"endTime":464.112,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":464.112,"endTime":466.492,"body":"... But in terms of what the Scripture's view"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":466.492,"endTime":470.791,"body":"about themselves- ... What Jesus and the apostles taught, and how"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":470.791,"endTime":474.891,"body":"does that maybe pair with things like reason, history, tradition,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":474.891,"endTime":477.031,"body":"and other sources of knowledge?"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":477.031,"endTime":479.552,"body":"Yeah. Yeah, and it's, it's nice to kind of"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":479.552,"endTime":481.391,"body":"catch yourself there and say, \"Well, the main thing I want to"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":481.391,"endTime":483.951,"body":"say about a Protestant view of Scripture is it's a Christian"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":483.951,"endTime":484.911,"body":"view of Scripture.\" So"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":485.572,"endTime":488.992,"body":"thank God, Roman Catholics also believe that Scripture is the"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":488.992,"endTime":490.872,"body":"word of God and is authoritative."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":490.872,"endTime":491.391,"body":"Amen."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":491.391,"endTime":493.031,"body":"From a Protestant point of view, we'd say, \"Okay,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":493.031,"endTime":495.872,"body":"so let's tease out the difference, though.\" Protestants"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":495.872,"endTime":499.572,"body":"are better at describing it as the authoritative word of God,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":499.572,"endTime":501.021,"body":"and as the norm that,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":501.752,"endTime":503.101,"body":"norms other norms, you know?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":503.101,"endTime":503.172,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":503.172,"endTime":504.711,"body":"There, there are various ways that we get our"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":504.711,"endTime":507.692,"body":"doctrine right, and we would want to use tradition and reason"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":507.692,"endTime":510.512,"body":"and all kinds of things like that, and thinking well and"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":510.512,"endTime":513.652,"body":"thinking connectedly. But when it comes to Scripture, we say,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":513.652,"endTime":516.851,"body":"\"Oh, this is in a whole different category. This is not"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":516.851,"endTime":519.711,"body":"one of the norms that mutually norm each other. This is the"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":519.711,"endTime":522.552,"body":"norm above all other norms.\" This is, this is where we would"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":522.552,"endTime":526.312,"body":"use the phrase sola Scriptura, obviously a Latin phrase, which"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":526.312,"endTime":528.631,"body":"doesn't mean, \"All I read is the Bible-\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":528.631,"endTime":528.642,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":528.642,"endTime":531.412,"body":"\"... Or I can't get a bad idea out of the Bible,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":531.412,"endTime":533.532,"body":"no matter how hard I try.\" It certainly does not mean those"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":533.532,"endTime":533.772,"body":"things."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":534.371,"endTime":536.351,"body":"What it means is... Actually, if you think about the phrase sola"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":536.351,"endTime":541.231,"body":"Scriptura, it implies that there's a range of influences on"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":541.231,"endTime":544.731,"body":"our theology, but that Scripture alone is the one- ... That"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":544.731,"endTime":547.572,"body":"stands above them all. And so again, to put the Protestant"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":547.572,"endTime":550.532,"body":"edge on that, you'd say, in those places where tradition"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":550.532,"endTime":554.871,"body":"develops sort of odd little excrescences and oddities,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":554.871,"endTime":558.851,"body":"you'd say, \"We can correct these, not by just appealing to"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":558.851,"endTime":562.812,"body":"more tradition, but by appealing back over tradition's head to"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":562.812,"endTime":566.211,"body":"Scripture itself, which stands out with a clearer profile as"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":566.211,"endTime":567.231,"body":"having authority.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":567.851,"endTime":569.211,"body":"Yeah, my understanding is there, that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":569.211,"endTime":570.652,"body":"that's often misunderstood-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":571.211,"endTime":576.292,"body":"... To refer to Scripture as the sole source of valid knowledge."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":576.292,"endTime":576.792,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":576.792,"endTime":578.572,"body":"And there's, that's why there's skep- there can be"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":578.572,"endTime":580.871,"body":"skepticism about the other disciplines,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":581.451,"endTime":585.312,"body":"and how they might inform our theological understanding. But"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":585.312,"endTime":588.211,"body":"that, you're saying that's, that has nothing to do with the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":588.211,"endTime":590.491,"body":"notion of sola Scriptura."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":590.491,"endTime":592.292,"body":"Right. Yeah, the phrase sola Scriptura,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":592.292,"endTime":594.451,"body":"sometimes people try to substitute something like,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":594.451,"endTime":597.412,"body":"\"Well, you're, you're describing a solo Scriptura or a"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":597.412,"endTime":600.932,"body":"nuda Scriptura,\" or something like that. So people will pick"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":600.932,"endTime":605.072,"body":"up this motto and read into it things like, \"You don't need"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":605.072,"endTime":607.532,"body":"anything ever but the Bible to tell you anything about"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":607.532,"endTime":612.192,"body":"anything.\" Also, it's a question of how information-rich your way"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":612.192,"endTime":615.292,"body":"of confessing Scripture is. If you've never read any of the"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":615.292,"endTime":619.432,"body":"Church Fathers, if you've never read anything but the Bible,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":619.432,"endTime":620.572,"body":"well, it doesn't really"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":621.471,"endTime":623.792,"body":"matter much that you say Scripture alone, 'cause you"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":623.792,"endTime":626.152,"body":"don't have any other options even on the table. It's when"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":626.152,"endTime":628.751,"body":"you're dealing with the entire Christian tradition, all the"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":628.751,"endTime":632.251,"body":"pre-Reformation exegesis of Scripture, all the riches of the"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":632.251,"endTime":634.851,"body":"entire Christian faith, that you're able to say, \"I've got"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":634.851,"endTime":638.412,"body":"all of this on the table,\" and when it's decision-making time,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":638.412,"endTime":642.371,"body":"Scripture is what guides and norms and controls what I do"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":642.371,"endTime":643.511,"body":"with all of that."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":643.511,"endTime":643.682,"body":"So what-"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":643.682,"endTime":645.292,"body":"If the table's empty, sola Scriptura means"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":645.292,"endTime":645.892,"body":"less."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":645.892,"endTime":648.152,"body":"What, what's the distinction, then, between..."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":648.152,"endTime":651.652,"body":"How do, how do the Roman Catholic traditions"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":652.312,"endTime":654.451,"body":"see Scripture differently?"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":654.451,"endTime":655.912,"body":"Yeah, that's a good question, and I,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":655.912,"endTime":658.871,"body":"again, I would want to say it's great that, Roman Catholics"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":658.871,"endTime":661.172,"body":"believe the Bible is the word of God. If I could put that in an"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":661.172,"endTime":664.552,"body":"edgy way, I'd say they just believe it badly. That is to"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":664.552,"endTime":667.072,"body":"say, they clutter up the confession of Scripture's"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":667.072,"endTime":670.692,"body":"authority with all kinds of competing norms and-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":670.692,"endTime":671.731,"body":"So such as?"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":671.731,"endTime":674.932,"body":"Such as an appeal to unwritten tradition, which"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":674.932,"endTime":677.572,"body":"they would claim goes all the way back. So if you, if you ask,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":677.572,"endTime":681.251,"body":"you know, \"Why... Seems to me that Mary, as described in Roman"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":681.251,"endTime":684.672,"body":"Catholic devotion and doctrine, is very different from the minor"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":684.672,"endTime":687.471,"body":"character of the New Testament?\" And they would say, \"Yeah, but"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":687.471,"endTime":690.991,"body":"there's an ancient tradition that gives to Mary a certain"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":690.991,"endTime":694.672,"body":"level of veneration.\" and so that's an appeal to"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":695.572,"endTime":698.511,"body":"unwritten, extra-biblical, ancient tradition."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":698.511,"endTime":701.812,"body":"So things like Mary, purgatory, other"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":701.812,"endTime":704.412,"body":"differences that Protestants have with Catholics-"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":704.412,"endTime":704.672,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":704.672,"endTime":706.731,"body":"... That's different than questions of,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":706.731,"endTime":710.851,"body":"like, the historicity of, say, the Exodus, or the intersection"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":710.851,"endTime":714.111,"body":"of science and faith, where people say there's a tension"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":714.111,"endTime":718.751,"body":"between Scripture and between some other field of knowledge."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":718.751,"endTime":719.491,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":719.491,"endTime":721.111,"body":"Is there a difference in general between"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":721.111,"endTime":725.111,"body":"how Protestants and Catholics would say, \"sola Scripture,\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":725.111,"endTime":728.111,"body":"when science seems to be in conflict or history seems to be"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":728.111,"endTime":728.731,"body":"in conflict"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":729.27,"endTime":732.751,"body":"with Catholics? Or what would it look like to be a Protestant"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":732.751,"endTime":735.412,"body":"view of Scripture in light of challenges that come from other"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":735.412,"endTime":736.011,"body":"fields?"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":737.144,"endTime":739.303,"body":"... So in my view, in my opinion, there's"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":739.303,"endTime":743.063,"body":"not, that's not a sorter between the two. You get various kinds"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":743.063,"endTime":746.323,"body":"of Protestant ways of dealing with, say, the claims of science"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":746.323,"endTime":749.102,"body":"or of reason, and you get various kinds of Roman Catholic"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":749.102,"endTime":753.121,"body":"ways of doing that. Just because there's a magisterium and a"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":753.121,"endTime":756.743,"body":"stronger defined tradition in Roman Catholicism, doesn't mean"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":756.743,"endTime":760.464,"body":"they have one particular way of dealing with those rival claims"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":760.464,"endTime":762.342,"body":"or those other ideas."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":762.342,"endTime":763.842,"body":"Well, let me give you an example on this."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":763.842,"endTime":764.283,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":764.283,"endTime":765.663,"body":"I think it might clarify this. When I was a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":765.663,"endTime":769.124,"body":"doctoral student- ... I took, I took some, a couple courses"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":769.124,"endTime":770.624,"body":"from, Charles Curran-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":771.203,"endTime":773.823,"body":"... A very prominent Catholic theologian. We didn't agree on"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":773.823,"endTime":775.264,"body":"hardly anything. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":775.823,"endTime":779.602,"body":"but he was very kind to me, and we got to be friends."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":780.602,"endTime":780.743,"body":"And"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":781.443,"endTime":784.443,"body":"he-- I, for the first time, I read really carefully a number"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":784.443,"endTime":787.703,"body":"of Catholic encyclicals- ... Which are the pa- the papal"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":787.703,"endTime":789.543,"body":"documents that sort of govern"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":790.203,"endTime":793.722,"body":"the way that the Catholic faithful view their,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":793.722,"endTime":795.683,"body":"their doctrine and its application."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":795.683,"endTime":796.183,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":796.183,"endTime":798.602,"body":"What I noticed throughout almost all the ones I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":798.602,"endTime":802.714,"body":"read, until very recently, is that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":803.503,"endTime":806.482,"body":"they started with, an appeal to reason."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":806.482,"endTime":807.253,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":807.253,"endTime":810.144,"body":"And it's what, it's what made sense rationally. That"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":810.144,"endTime":812.644,"body":"was sort of the main argument to carry the day, and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":812.644,"endTime":815.243,"body":"Scripture was almost like an appendix"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":816.063,"endTime":819.884,"body":"at the end, and s- it was, it was clear that they viewed, at"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":819.884,"endTime":822.303,"body":"least in the ex, encyclicals, they viewed Scripture as"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":822.303,"endTime":826.943,"body":"supplementing- ... What they had established by reason."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":827.722,"endTime":830.063,"body":"And I wonder, would it be fair to say that a Pro- a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":830.063,"endTime":833.602,"body":"Protestant view of Scripture might view that somewhat in"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":833.602,"endTime":836.183,"body":"reverse? That we would lead"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":836.722,"endTime":839.423,"body":"with Scripture and use reason to support"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":840.102,"endTime":843.722,"body":"our understanding of Scripture. They, they tended to do that,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":843.722,"endTime":846.982,"body":"just quite differently. Would that, would that be a fair"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":847.722,"endTime":849.964,"body":"recognition of the role of reason"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":850.543,"endTime":851.764,"body":"vis-a-vis Scripture?"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":852.663,"endTime":855.264,"body":"Well, I think it might be. Again, I don't"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":855.264,"endTime":858.264,"body":"think it's a total sorter because you get some very,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":858.903,"endTime":859.933,"body":"reason-first"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":860.464,"endTime":862.342,"body":"Ro- Protestant apologists."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":862.903,"endTime":866.083,"body":"It might also be that in, that you're speaking out beyond my"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":866.083,"endTime":866.634,"body":"expertise."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":866.634,"endTime":868.214,"body":"You mean, you mean like us? [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":868.214,"endTime":870.864,"body":"[laughing] Yeah. It could also be that in fields"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":870.864,"endTime":871.884,"body":"like ethics,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":872.464,"endTime":874.332,"body":"where you're gonna be way ahead of me on this reading,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":875.884,"endTime":879.003,"body":"that there might be more of a... The Protestants might"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":879.003,"endTime":882.884,"body":"have a cleaner shot because of their, careful attention to"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":882.884,"endTime":885.283,"body":"confessing the authority of Scripture, that they might be"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":885.283,"endTime":887.503,"body":"able to leverage that more effectively than Roman"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":887.503,"endTime":887.982,"body":"Catholics."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":887.982,"endTime":889.364,"body":"Okay, fair enough."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":889.364,"endTime":890.144,"body":"Yeah, I sense more"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":890.743,"endTime":891.964,"body":"that there's just a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":892.482,"endTime":896.663,"body":"more of a weight and a tradition within Catholicism of valuing,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":896.663,"endTime":899.722,"body":"like, natural law and general revelation- ... Than within"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":899.722,"endTime":902.864,"body":"Protestants, but it doesn't have to be a dividing line. I think"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":902.864,"endTime":906.384,"body":"that's something Protestants can [chuckles] and should do better."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":906.384,"endTime":908.342,"body":"But you're probably right, it doesn't divide. Now, let's get"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":908.342,"endTime":911.964,"body":"to the one that arguably does divide."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":912.624,"endTime":916.722,"body":"According to Protestants, what is the gospel, and why do we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":916.722,"endTime":918.323,"body":"believe that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":918.842,"endTime":919.543,"body":"is the gospel?"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":920.903,"endTime":923.124,"body":"Yeah, so even here in the doctrine of"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":923.124,"endTime":925.864,"body":"salvation or soteriology, where we're gonna come to some real"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":925.864,"endTime":928.923,"body":"divisions, like this is really what the fight is all about or"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":928.923,"endTime":931.163,"body":"the difference between Protestant and Catholic. Even"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":931.163,"endTime":933.722,"body":"here, you can start by talking about what we have in common."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":933.722,"endTime":936.624,"body":"Roman Catholics believe that we're saved by the grace of God."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":937.283,"endTime":938.083,"body":"Again, I would want to say"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":938.602,"endTime":942.124,"body":"they just believe in it badly, in a cluttered way- ... That the"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":942.124,"endTime":942.842,"body":"various,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":943.482,"endTime":947.884,"body":"ceremonies and works and things have sort of gotten between them"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":947.884,"endTime":952.503,"body":"and a clear confession of the totally unmerited favor of God."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":952.503,"endTime":954.823,"body":"And that's why, as you kind of drill down into this,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":955.384,"endTime":959.083,"body":"you would say Protestants teach their doctrine of salvation by"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":959.083,"endTime":963.124,"body":"emphasizing justification, the declaring to be righteous of"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":963.124,"endTime":966.803,"body":"sinners, justification by grace alone through faith alone. And"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":966.803,"endTime":969.063,"body":"that's where you start bringing in these alones again to say,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":970.443,"endTime":973.842,"body":"as compared to, say, a medieval Catholic doctrine, which would"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":973.842,"endTime":978.144,"body":"be, you're introduced into a sort of a state of the grace of"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":978.144,"endTime":981.864,"body":"God, but within that state of grace, you ask for God's help"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":982.423,"endTime":986.083,"body":"and power to make you do good works, and those good works set"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":986.083,"endTime":989.243,"body":"your soul in order. So you're increasingly sanctified- ... And"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":989.243,"endTime":992.503,"body":"sort of brought into alignment with God. You get rid of vices."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":992.503,"endTime":996.124,"body":"You take on virtues. Picture the way Dante has people climbing"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":996.124,"endTime":998.403,"body":"Mount Purgatory in the afterlife. Something like that,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":998.403,"endTime":1001.763,"body":"but now, like in this life- ... You're getting rid of virt-"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1001.763,"endTime":1004.864,"body":"getting rid of vices, taking on virtues. At the end of that, God"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1004.864,"endTime":1007.553,"body":"looks at you and says, \"Well, you have been made just by my"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1007.553,"endTime":1011.083,"body":"assisting power, and therefore, at the end of the process, I"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1011.083,"endTime":1013.943,"body":"call you justified.\" You might consider the whole process"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1013.943,"endTime":1016.982,"body":"justification. That's the edge where Protestants say, \"No,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1016.982,"endTime":1021.263,"body":"that's not how it works. We're, we're forgiven, freely forgiven"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1021.263,"endTime":1024.042,"body":"by the grace of God and justified at the beginning of"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1024.042,"endTime":1025.784,"body":"it. Then we do"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1026.344,"endTime":1029.703,"body":"get rid of vices, take on virtues, and live that life of"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1029.703,"endTime":1034.042,"body":"sanctification, but it starts with justification by grace"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1034.042,"endTime":1035.742,"body":"alone through faith alone.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1035.742,"endTime":1038.063,"body":"So, Fred, would it be fair to say that Protestants"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1038.063,"endTime":1039.982,"body":"make a cleaner distinction"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1040.644,"endTime":1042.963,"body":"between justification and sanctification"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1043.522,"endTime":1045.762,"body":"than there is-- they're, they don't tend to be... It sounds"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1045.762,"endTime":1049.364,"body":"like in Catholic teaching, they are, they are more fused"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1049.364,"endTime":1049.963,"body":"together"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1050.804,"endTime":1053.542,"body":"rather than seen as more separate and distinct."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1053.542,"endTime":1055.083,"body":"Yeah, I think that's a fair way to say it,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1055.083,"endTime":1058.003,"body":"and even to take the word justification on the Catholic"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1058.003,"endTime":1058.983,"body":"side, to take it to mean"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1059.503,"endTime":1063.163,"body":"actually being made just. Whereas Protestants have had to"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1063.163,"endTime":1065.644,"body":"dig that out of Romans and Galatians and kind of hone it"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1065.644,"endTime":1068.683,"body":"and say, \"No, it actually is being used in Scripture to mean"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1068.683,"endTime":1071.583,"body":"declared just.\" Then we go on to be made"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1072.104,"endTime":1074.983,"body":"holy, and at the end of that, there's a kind of justification,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1074.983,"endTime":1078.284,"body":"but the key use of the word is at the outset."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1078.284,"endTime":1080.063,"body":"You might have answered this, but I want to ask"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1080.063,"endTime":1083.203,"body":"you about a unique Protestant view of grace- ... Which is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1083.203,"endTime":1086.634,"body":"obviously at the [chuckles] root of the gospel. What's a unique"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1086.634,"endTime":1089.683,"body":"Protestant view of grace, and then what would the relationship"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1089.683,"endTime":1094.063,"body":"look like we think Scripture teaches between grace, faith,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1094.063,"endTime":1094.763,"body":"and works?"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1096.443,"endTime":1100.048,"body":"Yeah, um-... So Protestants, you know, reduce"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1100.048,"endTime":1103.048,"body":"everything to the grace of God. This is what salvation is, and"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1103.048,"endTime":1105.928,"body":"they want a clean shot at it. So there's a kind of a,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1106.686,"endTime":1108.907,"body":"I don't wanna call it nervousness, but there's a,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1109.887,"endTime":1113.207,"body":"there's a caution about introducing anything in between"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1113.207,"endTime":1115.686,"body":"just free forgiveness and the grace of God."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1117.087,"endTime":1121.147,"body":"You don't want any of your works or of your, alignment, or"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1121.147,"endTime":1123.048,"body":"submission to church authority,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1123.727,"endTime":1126.936,"body":"or any of those things to sort of get between you and saying,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1126.936,"endTime":1128.548,"body":"\"I'm saved by grace.\""},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1129.527,"endTime":1130.446,"body":"As a result,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1131.147,"endTime":1134.827,"body":"we then have to emphasize that the life we're introduced into"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1134.827,"endTime":1135.788,"body":"by grace-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1135.788,"endTime":1135.827,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1135.827,"endTime":1138.048,"body":"... Is a life which has a particular shape to"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1138.048,"endTime":1141.307,"body":"it, that has a form, and that we're going to obey God because"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1141.307,"endTime":1144.267,"body":"God continues to have the authority to command our moral"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1144.267,"endTime":1146.147,"body":"lives. We don't remove"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1146.707,"endTime":1150.347,"body":"the just authority of the rule maker when we say that we"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1150.347,"endTime":1153.587,"body":"are forgiven for breaking those rules. And then we can go on to"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1153.587,"endTime":1155.987,"body":"say, and this is the classic Protestant view, I could cite"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1155.987,"endTime":1156.946,"body":"lots of sources here-"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1157.517,"endTime":1160.127,"body":"... That works are, in fact, necessary as part of the"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1160.127,"endTime":1163.446,"body":"Christian life. I just, one example, the Heidelberg"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1163.446,"endTime":1166.327,"body":"Catechism, which is a, like a Reformed document on Lutheran"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1166.327,"endTime":1169.807,"body":"territory in the 1500s. The Heidelberg Catechism says,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1169.807,"endTime":1173.327,"body":"\"Since we are saved by grace through faith alone, why must we"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1173.327,"endTime":1174.057,"body":"do good works?\""},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1174.946,"endTime":1177.247,"body":"That's, that's the question. Just the fact that you can put"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1177.247,"endTime":1178.957,"body":"that question in a properly Protestant-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1178.957,"endTime":1179.377,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1179.377,"endTime":1180.946,"body":"... Document alerts you to the fact that, oh"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1180.946,"endTime":1185.048,"body":"yeah, works are necessary. Works don't constitute our salvation,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1185.048,"endTime":1189.067,"body":"but the Christian life has to include a transformation in"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1189.067,"endTime":1190.267,"body":"which you do good works."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1190.267,"endTime":1192.936,"body":"Okay, so necessary in what sense?"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1192.936,"endTime":1192.967,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1192.967,"endTime":1196.587,"body":"Not necessary for salvation, but necessary to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1196.587,"endTime":1199.767,"body":"reveal to the world we're actually saved? What's that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1199.767,"endTime":1201.247,"body":"necessary component?"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1201.247,"endTime":1203.147,"body":"Yeah, that's very... That's, that's properly"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1203.147,"endTime":1204.538,"body":"Protestant and vigilant of you- [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1204.538,"endTime":1204.538,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1204.538,"endTime":1207.247,"body":"... To get in there. [laughing] Yeah. Never"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1207.247,"endTime":1209.446,"body":"necessary as a condition, right?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1209.446,"endTime":1209.487,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1209.487,"endTime":1211.288,"body":"Never as a condition, like you must do"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1211.288,"endTime":1213.867,"body":"these works, and when you have satisfied the condition of doing"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1213.867,"endTime":1216.446,"body":"these works, then you are saved. That's- ... That's not how that"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1216.446,"endTime":1217.107,"body":"works. That would be-"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1217.696,"endTime":1219.707,"body":"Again, the Heidelberg Catechism question puts it, \"Since we are"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1219.707,"endTime":1222.587,"body":"saved by grace, why must we do good works?\" And that means it"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1222.587,"endTime":1226.227,"body":"can't come first as a condition. It certainly does help to"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1226.227,"endTime":1229.247,"body":"testify to the world- ... That we're not just imagining that"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1229.247,"endTime":1232.047,"body":"God has forgiven us, but that- ... That forgiveness has entered"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1232.047,"endTime":1235.707,"body":"our lives as a factor and a principle in how we live towards"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1235.707,"endTime":1238.387,"body":"the righteous lawgiver, God, the Holy One."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1239.186,"endTime":1242.407,"body":"But also because this is not a fantasy. We're actually"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1242.407,"endTime":1245.307,"body":"aligning- ... Ourselves with God and taking on the character of"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1245.307,"endTime":1249.007,"body":"Christ- ... And that's gonna have the form of, Ephesians"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1249.007,"endTime":1251.707,"body":"2-10, you know, \"Doing good works, which God has prepared"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1251.707,"endTime":1254.847,"body":"beforehand, that we should walk in them.\" Ephesians 2-10 is, of"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1254.847,"endTime":1257.507,"body":"course, right after, \"By grace, you are saved through faith-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1257.507,"endTime":1257.516,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1257.516,"endTime":1259.087,"body":"... And that is not your own doing, so no one"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1259.087,"endTime":1262.147,"body":"can boast. But we are His workmanship, created for good"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1262.147,"endTime":1262.507,"body":"works"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1263.167,"endTime":1265.686,"body":"in Christ.\" If I start quoting Paul, I'm gonna get kind of"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1265.686,"endTime":1266.327,"body":"carried away here-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1266.327,"endTime":1266.357,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1266.357,"endTime":1266.547,"body":"... 'cause,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1267.407,"endTime":1270.607,"body":"if you, if you take on all of Paul's letters, especially"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1270.607,"endTime":1272.707,"body":"including, like, his letters to Timothy and Titus, where he's"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1272.707,"endTime":1275.807,"body":"not writing to a church, but to pastors of a church, he's"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1275.807,"endTime":1279.087,"body":"constantly using the phrase \"good works\" in a very positive"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1279.087,"endTime":1281.967,"body":"sense. \"Remind them to do good works.\" \"Remember that the point"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1281.967,"endTime":1285.268,"body":"of the Christian life is to do good works, to be transformed"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1285.268,"endTime":1287.607,"body":"and renewed, to do these things.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1288.268,"endTime":1290.847,"body":"I wonder, just to clarify this maybe a little"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1290.847,"endTime":1293.428,"body":"bit further, I wonder if one of the ma- one of the major"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1293.428,"endTime":1294.847,"body":"differences would be where"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1295.547,"endTime":1298.247,"body":"a believer would get the assurance, ultimately, of their"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1298.247,"endTime":1299.007,"body":"salvation."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1299.936,"endTime":1303.527,"body":"'Cause I'd be nervous if the assurance of salvation was"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1303.527,"endTime":1307.347,"body":"coming from my good works. I'm, I'm, I'm inclined to say that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1307.347,"endTime":1310.127,"body":"the Scripture teaches that it come, that comes at the foot of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1310.127,"endTime":1310.946,"body":"the cross."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1310.946,"endTime":1311.587,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1311.587,"endTime":1313.877,"body":"And that's what assures me of my"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1314.567,"endTime":1316.768,"body":"salvation and my eternal security."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1316.768,"endTime":1319.087,"body":"Yeah. No, that's exactly right. Is it D. James"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1319.087,"endTime":1322.186,"body":"Kennedy who had that question in Evangelism Explosion, \"If you"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1322.186,"endTime":1324.467,"body":"stood before God right now, and He said, 'Why should I let you"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1324.467,"endTime":1326.827,"body":"into Heaven- ... What would you answer?\" Yeah, the"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1326.827,"endTime":1329.547,"body":"Protestant impulse, following the biblical teaching, is never"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1329.547,"endTime":1332.467,"body":"gonna be, \"I've had a pretty good couple of years here, you"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1332.467,"endTime":1336.268,"body":"know?\" [laughing] It's always gonna be, only for the sake of"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1336.268,"endTime":1339.047,"body":"the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ counted to me on,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1339.047,"endTime":1341.247,"body":"you know, by God."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1341.247,"endTime":1343.547,"body":"So what's a Protestant view of the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1343.547,"endTime":1346.547,"body":"sacraments? This is another one where we see a lot of debate and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1346.547,"endTime":1347.587,"body":"disagreement. So"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1348.428,"endTime":1350.847,"body":"you can compare and contrast with Catholics if you want to,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1350.847,"endTime":1354.797,"body":"but what are the Protestant sacraments? What are they? How"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1354.797,"endTime":1357.727,"body":"do we practice them? Why do we practice them? What do they"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1357.727,"endTime":1358.306,"body":"mean?"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1358.306,"endTime":1360.467,"body":"Yeah, so to tag that base of unity first,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1360.467,"endTime":1362.807,"body":"because this is a point where it's easy to do- ... Not only a"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1362.807,"endTime":1366.107,"body":"comparison between Protestants and Catholics, a contrast, but"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1366.107,"endTime":1369.327,"body":"also among Protestants, the various different views that we"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1369.327,"endTime":1371.788,"body":"would have of Baptism and the Lord's Supper. We've learned"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1371.788,"endTime":1374.847,"body":"some real habits of disagreement and distinction- ..."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1374.847,"endTime":1377.087,"body":"[clears throat] and we could pursue that. But it's"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1377.087,"endTime":1380.768,"body":"worth saying, we all agree that the sacraments are special"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1380.768,"endTime":1384.667,"body":"ordinances of Christ to be observed in the Church, that"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1384.667,"endTime":1385.047,"body":"mean"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1385.567,"endTime":1388.827,"body":"we die with Christ and rise with Him and are nourished by faith"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1388.827,"endTime":1392.946,"body":"in Him. So dying and rising, obviously, localized in Baptism,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1392.946,"endTime":1396.127,"body":"and being nourished by faith in Him, localized especially in the"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1396.127,"endTime":1399.707,"body":"Lord's Supper. Now, I use the word ordinance there,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1400.587,"endTime":1403.587,"body":"not to avoid the word sacrament, uh- ... Though I do often, when"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1403.587,"endTime":1406.147,"body":"someone says sacrament, I kind of get professorial and say,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1406.147,"endTime":1407.907,"body":"like, \"Could you please define your term?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1407.907,"endTime":1408.277,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1408.277,"endTime":1409.667,"body":"What, what content did you just add to our"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1409.667,"endTime":1411.587,"body":"discussion by using that word?\" Et cetera."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1412.268,"endTime":1414.547,"body":"Ordinance is just a way of saying these are things ordained"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1414.547,"endTime":1415.167,"body":"by Christ."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1416.227,"endTime":1418.807,"body":"And so it brings us back to the life of the Church"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1419.507,"endTime":1420.186,"body":"as a,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1421.467,"endTime":1424.007,"body":"a body of believers, sort of,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1424.678,"endTime":1427.327,"body":"That we d- we didn't invent our own ordinances. We didn't come"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1427.327,"endTime":1429.847,"body":"up with some, like, cool stuff we would do in order to be in"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1429.847,"endTime":1432.527,"body":"this club. We're actually following directly the commands"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1432.527,"endTime":1435.127,"body":"of Jesus Christ, that He ordained Baptism and the Lord's"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1435.127,"endTime":1436.587,"body":"Supper in the Church."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1436.587,"endTime":1438.807,"body":"So is it fair to say, as Protestants, since we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1438.807,"endTime":1442.587,"body":"don't have, as in Roman Catholics, kind of a top-down,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1442.587,"endTime":1446.027,"body":"authoritative structure apart from the Scripture-"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1446.027,"endTime":1446.367,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1446.367,"endTime":1449.087,"body":"... We're clearly called to Baptism, for"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1449.087,"endTime":1453.247,"body":"example, clearly called to practice the Lord's Supper, but"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1453.247,"endTime":1457.727,"body":"how we practice them, there can be some in-house differences"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1457.727,"endTime":1460.507,"body":"among Protestants, and we have seen that, historically"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1460.507,"endTime":1461.186,"body":"speaking."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1461.186,"endTime":1464.167,"body":"Yes, and there have been in-house differences"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1464.167,"endTime":1467.587,"body":"in the history of the Church in what we would now retroactively"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1467.587,"endTime":1470.067,"body":"call the Roman Catholic tradition. It was not always"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1470.067,"endTime":1473.587,"body":"transubstantiation developed in Aristotelian categories- ... As"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1473.587,"endTime":1474.897,"body":"in the 13th century."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1474.897,"endTime":1475.367,"body":"Interesting."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1475.367,"endTime":1477.268,"body":"So there's been some difference there. The other"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1477.268,"endTime":1479.137,"body":"thing I'd say, and I think you indicated this,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1480.147,"endTime":1483.147,"body":"we'll start counting sacraments, that is, ordinances of Christ,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1483.147,"endTime":1486.635,"body":"and stop at two.... Because, you know, mission accomplished,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1486.635,"endTime":1489.234,"body":"that's, that's what we're doing. Union with Christ and fellowship"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1489.234,"endTime":1492.275,"body":"with Christ, that's what we're organized around. Which in the"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1492.275,"endTime":1495.375,"body":"Roman Catholic system, in addition to that, so we agree"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1495.375,"endTime":1498.775,"body":"about that, but they go on to sort of link it to,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1499.316,"endTime":1503.316,"body":"the sacerdotal or the sort of church system of how you"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1503.316,"endTime":1506.234,"body":"would get the right sacraments by the right person at the right"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1506.234,"endTime":1509.355,"body":"time. Once you admit that principle of what's gonna count"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1509.355,"endTime":1512.316,"body":"as a sacrament, you're gonna have to go for about seven,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1512.316,"endTime":1514.476,"body":"because you've gotta have a sacrament to make sure that the"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1514.476,"endTime":1517.096,"body":"priest is ordained to do the sacraments. Then you're gonna"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1517.096,"endTime":1519.535,"body":"have to have baptism, and that's gonna have to be followed up by"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1519.535,"endTime":1520.296,"body":"confirmation,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1520.855,"endTime":1523.494,"body":"and then you're gonna have to have marrying and burying, and"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1523.494,"endTime":1526.935,"body":"all of the things that sort of go with the sacramental churchly"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1526.935,"endTime":1530.395,"body":"system, and that's just to have admitted a different principle"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1530.395,"endTime":1532.205,"body":"of what you're gonna use for sacraments."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1533.515,"endTime":1537.535,"body":"So is there something distinctive"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1538.296,"endTime":1541.015,"body":"that's Protestant in the view of the Church?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1541.556,"endTime":1543.096,"body":"You know, you've talked about some of the, some of the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1543.096,"endTime":1544.175,"body":"practices-"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1544.175,"endTime":1544.336,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1544.336,"endTime":1546.515,"body":"... Some of the ordinances that are different,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1546.515,"endTime":1548.316,"body":"but is there, is there something"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1548.955,"endTime":1549.734,"body":"that's distinct"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1550.295,"endTime":1552.895,"body":"about a Protestant view of the Church?"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1552.895,"endTime":1554.816,"body":"Yeah, I think it's meaningful to talk about a"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1554.816,"endTime":1557.734,"body":"kind of a mere Protestant view of the Church. So again, you"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1557.734,"endTime":1557.875,"body":"could"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1558.476,"endTime":1561.155,"body":"get out into all the differences between Lutherans and Anglicans"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1561.155,"endTime":1562.826,"body":"and Methodists and all that kind of stuff, but,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1563.476,"endTime":1567.076,"body":"the Protestant view is actually a strength,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1568.056,"endTime":1572.836,"body":"because it's the community of people called by the Word into"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1572.836,"endTime":1576.355,"body":"fellowship with God. So it's that, calling and gathering of a"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1576.355,"endTime":1579.836,"body":"people of God around the Word. The, the way this sort of shows"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1579.836,"endTime":1583.295,"body":"up in contrast to Catholicism is you'll often hear Roman Catholic"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1583.295,"endTime":1586.295,"body":"apologists say something like, \"You wouldn't even have the"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1586.295,"endTime":1589.096,"body":"Bible if it weren't for the Church handing you the Bible.\""},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1589.096,"endTime":1592.705,"body":"It's a- it's, that's considered a knockdown argument."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1593.536,"endTime":1597.015,"body":"But of course, if you think about it theologically, the"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1597.015,"endTime":1600.255,"body":"Church was always that group of people gathered around the Word"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1600.255,"endTime":1603.615,"body":"of God, right? They had the books of Moses, they had the"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1603.615,"endTime":1608.076,"body":"Bible Jesus had, and when Jesus himself said, \"Follow me,\" that"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1608.076,"endTime":1611.915,"body":"is the Word of God gathering the people of God. And so,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1611.915,"endTime":1614.894,"body":"Protestant ecclesiology or doctrine of the Church just"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1614.894,"endTime":1618.515,"body":"takes that fully seriously, that the Word gathers the people of"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1618.515,"endTime":1619.836,"body":"God."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1619.836,"endTime":1622.655,"body":"So there's a few concerns or objections that are"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1622.655,"endTime":1626.915,"body":"often raised to Protestants, and I love your take on them, Fred."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1626.915,"endTime":1629.615,"body":"One is what's often called individualism- ... That"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1629.615,"endTime":1634.395,"body":"Protestants shift the locus of authority from the Church to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1634.395,"endTime":1638.096,"body":"Scripture, which elevates the individual [chuckles] reader,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1638.096,"endTime":1641.836,"body":"such as you and me or every other reader, to the authority"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1641.836,"endTime":1643.355,"body":"of interpretation."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1643.355,"endTime":1644.015,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1644.015,"endTime":1646.536,"body":"Is that true, and is that a fair concern we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1646.536,"endTime":1648.556,"body":"should pay attention to?"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1648.556,"endTime":1652.135,"body":"Yeah. Well, I the first part of it is great, that,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1652.135,"endTime":1654.336,"body":"how did you just put it? That Protestantism-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1654.336,"endTime":1657.115,"body":"Shift the locus of authority from the Church to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1657.115,"endTime":1657.915,"body":"Scripture."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1657.915,"endTime":1661.076,"body":"Yep. Totally on board with that. It does not"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1661.076,"endTime":1664.255,"body":"follow from that we therefore ought to enthrone the"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1664.255,"endTime":1665.976,"body":"lone interpreter as-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1665.976,"endTime":1666.023,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1666.023,"endTime":1667.846,"body":"... The actual authority there. So that's"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1667.846,"endTime":1669.536,"body":"a little bit of sleight of hand. Um-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1669.536,"endTime":1669.625,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1669.625,"endTime":1670.445,"body":"... I'm not blaming you for it."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1670.445,"endTime":1670.455,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1670.455,"endTime":1671.806,"body":"But when someone does that and thinks-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1671.806,"endTime":1672.015,"body":"That's right"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1672.015,"endTime":1673.515,"body":"... \"Well, if the Bible's in charge, that means"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1673.515,"endTime":1677.336,"body":"I'm in charge,\" that's where I would really encourage people to"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1677.336,"endTime":1680.596,"body":"study some actual Protestant theology. You know, there's- ..."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1680.596,"endTime":1683.515,"body":"There can be a tendency to use Protestant as a default setting"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1683.515,"endTime":1685.994,"body":"for, \"If you're not Catholic, you must be this other thing,\""},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1685.994,"endTime":1688.875,"body":"and that must mean anyone who finds a Bible in a hotel room"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1688.875,"endTime":1691.615,"body":"and gets an idea out of it must be Protestant. [laughing] Right?"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1691.615,"endTime":1694.435,"body":"Well, that's... We're gonna need some quality control here,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1694.435,"endTime":1694.615,"body":"right?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1694.615,"endTime":1694.645,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1694.645,"endTime":1696.836,"body":"I'm like, I'm not a control freak, but read the"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1696.836,"endTime":1700.915,"body":"actual Protestantism of the 1500s. It was never about"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1700.915,"endTime":1703.415,"body":"handing someone a Bible and leaving them all alone to figure"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1703.415,"endTime":1705.816,"body":"out what they could get from it. It was a movement of"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1705.816,"endTime":1710.036,"body":"catechizing, of teaching, of scriptural preaching, of intense"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1710.036,"endTime":1712.895,"body":"guidance to help instruct people, and by the way, that"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1712.895,"endTime":1714.234,"body":"intense guidance included"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1715.015,"endTime":1719.215,"body":"the Bible interpretation of the previous 1,500 years. So it"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1719.215,"endTime":1722.115,"body":"wasn't a lopping off everything and starting afresh with a Bible"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1722.115,"endTime":1724.795,"body":"I happened to find. It was always about giving authority to"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1724.795,"endTime":1726.675,"body":"the Word of God and doing so"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1727.395,"endTime":1728.295,"body":"with proper guidance."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1728.295,"endTime":1730.695,"body":"Okay, so the key is to talk about authority. The"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1730.695,"endTime":1734.115,"body":"authority is not in the individual interpreter to say,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1734.115,"endTime":1736.175,"body":"\"This is what it means to me.\""},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1736.175,"endTime":1736.455,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1736.455,"endTime":1738.556,"body":"Although individuals can do that, the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1738.556,"endTime":1739.795,"body":"authority is the Scripture-"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1739.795,"endTime":1740.155,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1740.155,"endTime":1743.195,"body":"... And there's a tradition of doing theology"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1743.195,"endTime":1747.076,"body":"well, pointing to Scripture, debating what the text means. So"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1747.076,"endTime":1749.655,"body":"just because there's differences- ... Doesn't mean we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1749.655,"endTime":1752.375,"body":"have this individualistic strain that leads to a kind of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1752.375,"endTime":1753.435,"body":"relativism."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1753.435,"endTime":1753.695,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1753.695,"endTime":1754.195,"body":"Is that fair?"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1754.195,"endTime":1754.955,"body":"That's right."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1754.955,"endTime":1754.976,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1754.976,"endTime":1758.755,"body":"But do, just to be clear, is there some place in"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1758.755,"endTime":1763.115,"body":"Catholic theology that encourages the individual to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1763.115,"endTime":1764.455,"body":"read Scripture on their own"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1764.976,"endTime":1769.476,"body":"and to come to some of their own conclusions?"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1769.476,"endTime":1772.596,"body":"I mean, it's not prominent in the way Catholicism"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1772.596,"endTime":1774.734,"body":"teaches. You know, they have a thing called the Magisterium,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1774.734,"endTime":1776.326,"body":"which means the teaching office, and"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1777.615,"endTime":1782.855,"body":"supposedly in Roman Catholicism, if the Bible is unclear, then"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1782.855,"endTime":1785.576,"body":"you would go to the Magisterium, who would tell you what it"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1785.576,"endTime":1788.755,"body":"means, and supposedly they would be clear. I say supposedly,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1788.755,"endTime":1791.855,"body":"'cause if you've spent any time looking at magisterial teaching,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1791.855,"endTime":1794.096,"body":"you realize you need a Magisterium for the Magisterium."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1794.096,"endTime":1794.734,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1794.734,"endTime":1795.705,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1795.705,"endTime":1797.435,"body":"And also, you want to drop back to the-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1797.435,"endTime":1797.605,"body":"Yeah, yeah"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1797.605,"endTime":1799.295,"body":"... Classic Protestant way of teaching, the"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1799.295,"endTime":1802.695,"body":"clarity of Scripture. We're not denying that there are difficult"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1802.695,"endTime":1805.596,"body":"passages. It is a biblical doctrine that there are hard"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1805.596,"endTime":1808.096,"body":"passages, right? Peter says that of Paul, like, \"Some of the"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1808.096,"endTime":1810.875,"body":"stuff he writes is hard to read.\" but"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1811.415,"endTime":1813.895,"body":"we don't think that Scripture is so radically unclear that you"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1813.895,"endTime":1816.695,"body":"must install a Magisterium to give you a supposedly clear"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1816.695,"endTime":1817.675,"body":"interpretation of it."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1818.935,"endTime":1820.615,"body":"So the first concern that's often raised is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1820.615,"endTime":1824.675,"body":"individualism, and you said that Scripture itself is the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1824.675,"endTime":1828.635,"body":"authority. The other one is often called fragmentation. That"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1828.635,"endTime":1832.315,"body":"we've seen the Church fragment since the 1500s. There's now"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1832.315,"endTime":1835.536,"body":"dozens... That's probably a radical understatement. I don't"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1835.536,"endTime":1837.536,"body":"know how many denominations there are, [chuckles] but tons"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1837.536,"endTime":1837.645,"body":"of-"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1837.645,"endTime":1837.645,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1837.645,"endTime":1839.935,"body":"... Protestant denominations and divisions"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1839.935,"endTime":1844.275,"body":"across and within those denominations, seemingly with"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1844.275,"endTime":1844.675,"body":"minimal"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1845.234,"endTime":1850.056,"body":"unity. So have we lost unity, which is a theme Scripture, like"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1850.056,"endTime":1854.375,"body":"Ephesians, talks about and is vital, as shifting towards this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1854.375,"endTime":1855.855,"body":"Protestant movement?"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1855.855,"endTime":1857.675,"body":"... Yeah. Well, the main thing I wanna talk"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1857.675,"endTime":1860.234,"body":"about there is unity, but let me, let me first say, dozens is"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1860.234,"endTime":1863.096,"body":"probably a pretty good answer to how many denominations-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1863.096,"endTime":1863.105,"body":"Okay"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1863.105,"endTime":1865.244,"body":"-there are, unless you take Protestant again"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1865.244,"endTime":1867.915,"body":"as a default setting to mean anyone who finds a Bible-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1867.915,"endTime":1868.056,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1868.056,"endTime":1870.795,"body":"... And finds a doctrine in it, has to count as"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1870.795,"endTime":1873.635,"body":"Protestant. Even if they swear out loud, \"I am not a"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1873.635,"endTime":1877.494,"body":"Protestant,\" like, \"I am from Pastor Bob's Doctrine Emporium,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1877.494,"endTime":1880.355,"body":"and we are not Protestant,\" it'd be weird to count them as"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1880.355,"endTime":1883.115,"body":"Protestant and sort of count them against us. I'm not looking"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1883.115,"endTime":1886.175,"body":"for some global Protestant council to declare who's in and"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1886.175,"endTime":1887.596,"body":"who's out. I'm just saying,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1888.155,"endTime":1891.494,"body":"if you define Protestant as anyone who finds anything in"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1891.494,"endTime":1894.734,"body":"Scripture and doesn't wanna be Catholic, and then you ask why"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1894.734,"endTime":1898.816,"body":"they're fragmented, well, your sorting mechanism was, by"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1898.816,"endTime":1902.115,"body":"definition, fragmenting. And so at some point, you wanna say,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1902.115,"endTime":1905.336,"body":"\"I can't be held accountable for...\" Well, I was gonna say,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1905.336,"endTime":1907.056,"body":"if I turn on the TV and see someone saying things from the"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1907.056,"endTime":1909.655,"body":"Bible, I can't say, \"There's Protestantism,\" right?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1909.655,"endTime":1909.976,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1909.976,"endTime":1911.015,"body":"I guess the modern way to say that would"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1911.015,"endTime":1912.935,"body":"say, I can't just find any YouTube channel-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1912.935,"endTime":1912.984,"body":"There you go"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1912.984,"endTime":1914.734,"body":"... And say, \"This counts as Protestantism.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1914.734,"endTime":1915.476,"body":"There you go."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1915.476,"endTime":1917.115,"body":"So, that's one thing. The other thing I wanna"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1917.115,"endTime":1917.596,"body":"say is,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1918.715,"endTime":1923.915,"body":"Roman Catholicism has invested in external forms of unity."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1924.806,"endTime":1927.035,"body":"In many ways, you know, you could think about Roman"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1927.035,"endTime":1930.425,"body":"Catholicism as investing in externals rather than internals."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1930.425,"endTime":1930.915,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1930.915,"endTime":1932.096,"body":"And I don't mean that as a put-down. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1932.096,"endTime":1933.875,"body":"that's a strategic move to say"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1934.494,"endTime":1938.355,"body":"the Roman Catholic Church is one because it's based in one city"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1938.355,"endTime":1941.836,"body":"with one head, and it's got brand control- ... And everybody"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1941.836,"endTime":1945.035,"body":"knows what a Roman Catholic is, and so that counts as one. You"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1945.035,"endTime":1948.115,"body":"turn from that to Protestants, who do not have that external"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1948.115,"endTime":1950.816,"body":"sort of investment, but who often consider themselves"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1950.816,"endTime":1954.556,"body":"spiritually one in lots of ways, right? So I'm in the Evangelical"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1954.556,"endTime":1957.015,"body":"Free Church of America denomination. I've got friends"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1957.015,"endTime":1959.655,"body":"in town in Baptist denominations. They invite me to"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1959.655,"endTime":1960.494,"body":"preach at their church."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1961.175,"endTime":1963.175,"body":"I don't think I'm doing something weird. I think,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1963.175,"endTime":1966.494,"body":"obviously, we're, like, the same-- We believe the same"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1966.494,"endTime":1968.455,"body":"doctrine. We believe the same ways. We might have a couple"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1968.455,"endTime":1971.955,"body":"minor disagreements, but we are fundamentally unified. So"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1971.955,"endTime":1974.755,"body":"there's a big difference there between an external criterion of"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1974.755,"endTime":1976.515,"body":"unity and an internal criterion."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1977.415,"endTime":1980.015,"body":"Speaking as a Protestant, as a fairly low-church Evangelical"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1980.015,"endTime":1980.976,"body":"Protestant, I could say"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1982.035,"endTime":1985.214,"body":"we might be able to steal a few cool ideas from the Catholic"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1985.214,"endTime":1988.576,"body":"investment in external unity. It would be neat if my secular"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1988.576,"endTime":1990.935,"body":"neighbors driving down the street didn't think-- didn't"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1990.935,"endTime":1993.875,"body":"drive by two churches in a row and think, \"Those are competing"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1993.875,"endTime":1996.605,"body":"franchises in a religious food court-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1996.605,"endTime":1996.605,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1996.605,"endTime":1998.755,"body":"... And they must hate each other.\" It'd be cool"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":1998.755,"endTime":2000.255,"body":"if they were in on the secret that"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2000.935,"endTime":2003.525,"body":"that's actually two different ways of getting the same thing-"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2004.045,"endTime":2006.275,"body":"... And our distinction from each other is not a big"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2006.275,"endTime":2009.755,"body":"division. Anyway, one other thing I want to say about that"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2009.755,"endTime":2013.195,"body":"Catholic investment in external unity, though, is it's merely"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2013.195,"endTime":2014.076,"body":"external unity,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2014.695,"endTime":2017.135,"body":"and if you spend any time with lots of different kinds of"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2017.135,"endTime":2021.576,"body":"Catholics, you know that inside, behind that facade of oneness, a"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2021.576,"endTime":2023.955,"body":"lot of Catholics hate each other for a lot of deep-seated"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2023.955,"endTime":2026.734,"body":"reasons, you know? I did my graduate work in Berkeley- ..."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2026.734,"endTime":2029.836,"body":"Hung out with a lot of Catholics there. The theological union I"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2029.836,"endTime":2034.576,"body":"was part of included Dominicans, Jesuits, and Franciscans. Now, I"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2034.576,"endTime":2036.635,"body":"don't know what their global situation is, but in Berkeley,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2036.635,"endTime":2037.905,"body":"they don't get along. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2037.905,"endTime":2038.234,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2038.234,"endTime":2040.415,"body":"Right? Like, the Dominicans are pretty"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2040.415,"endTime":2043.655,"body":"conservative Thomists- ... And the Franciscans are a little"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2043.655,"endTime":2046.003,"body":"wild and crazy, and then the Jesuits-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2046.003,"endTime":2046.224,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2046.224,"endTime":2048.275,"body":"... Act like the Boston Jesuits. It's really not"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2048.275,"endTime":2050.996,"body":"clear how they're Catholic. And if you ask them,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2051.775,"endTime":2054.255,"body":"\"What do you think about the last few popes?\" Woo! Fights"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2054.255,"endTime":2058.076,"body":"break out, right? [chuckles] I mean, John Paul II, I think, was"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2058.076,"endTime":2061.335,"body":"a pretty cool pope, but a liberal Catholic is gonna think-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2061.335,"endTime":2061.545,"body":"Not so much"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2061.545,"endTime":2063.355,"body":"... \"No, that's the guy who stopped Vatican II"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2063.355,"endTime":2066.956,"body":"from doing its perfect work.\" and so just to say- ... There's"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2066.956,"endTime":2071.934,"body":"a bunch of disunity behind the investment in external unity,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2071.934,"endTime":2075.295,"body":"but it's a neat strategy, and again, speaking as a Protestant,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2075.295,"endTime":2077.315,"body":"I'd like to borrow a little bit of, a little bit of that"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2077.315,"endTime":2079.456,"body":"appearance of unity toward the outer world."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2080.135,"endTime":2083.556,"body":"Fred, let me tackle one more, I think, maybe"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2083.556,"endTime":2084.655,"body":"significant difference."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2085.335,"endTime":2089.375,"body":"And that is the understanding of Peter- ... And the, you know,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2089.375,"endTime":2092.815,"body":"the papal succession part that comes from Matthew 16-"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2092.815,"endTime":2093.355,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2093.355,"endTime":2094.556,"body":"... And the statement that,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2095.416,"endTime":2098.195,"body":"you know, the declaration that, you know, \"On this rock I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2098.195,"endTime":2102.755,"body":"will build my church,\" and what exactly that rock refers to."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2103.394,"endTime":2107.596,"body":"So clarify for us, where does the Catholic view on this"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2107.596,"endTime":2110.476,"body":"come from, and then how is the Protestant view of that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2110.476,"endTime":2111.934,"body":"different?"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2111.934,"endTime":2114.096,"body":"Yeah, well, the Catholic view takes that as a"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2114.096,"endTime":2118.255,"body":"definite proof that Peter has a special leadership role that he"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2118.255,"endTime":2121.615,"body":"exercises in the church, and this is crucial,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2122.375,"endTime":2125.434,"body":"first you have to focus it on Peter so that whatever wordplay"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2125.434,"endTime":2127.894,"body":"Jesus is doing there, and we could, we could spend some"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2127.894,"endTime":2128.835,"body":"time on that passage-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2128.835,"endTime":2128.865,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2128.865,"endTime":2130.556,"body":"... 'cause it's really interesting, the binding"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2130.556,"endTime":2131.715,"body":"and loosing and all of that."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2133.615,"endTime":2136.675,"body":"That Jesus is, according on the Catholic view, focusing"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2136.675,"endTime":2140.335,"body":"on Peter himself, picking him out from the others, but in such"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2140.335,"endTime":2143.115,"body":"a way that, to make the Catholic view work, he's actually being"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2143.115,"endTime":2146.516,"body":"installed in an office which is inheritable. So it's a kind"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2146.516,"endTime":2148.735,"body":"of a push and pull there. We have to see him like it's mainly"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2148.735,"endTime":2151.835,"body":"about Peter to the exclusion of the other disciples, but not"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2151.835,"endTime":2154.434,"body":"just Peter himself, but the office that's being instantiated"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2154.434,"endTime":2158.735,"body":"there. That's an unusual view, and that's sort of... If you"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2158.735,"endTime":2162.335,"body":"interpret that view as instantiating the papacy for all"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2162.335,"endTime":2165.576,"body":"time as the vicar of Christ on Earth, by definition, that makes"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2165.576,"endTime":2169.215,"body":"you Roman Catholic. The Orthodox don't think that. Protestants"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2169.215,"endTime":2170.195,"body":"don't think that. It's-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2170.195,"endTime":2172.875,"body":"So that is, that is a uniquely Roman Catholic view."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2172.875,"endTime":2175.076,"body":"That, yeah, that is. Mm-hmm, and you can't-- It's"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2175.076,"endTime":2175.385,"body":"not,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2176.255,"endTime":2179.255,"body":"you don't have 1,500 years of unity about how to interpret"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2179.255,"endTime":2182.375,"body":"that. So Augustine looks at that and says, \"Well, I think, I"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2182.375,"endTime":2184.786,"body":"think what's going on there is Jesus is picking out,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2185.295,"endTime":2188.536,"body":"what the rock here, on which the church is founded, is the"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2188.536,"endTime":2189.746,"body":"confession of"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2190.356,"endTime":2193.576,"body":"Peter, Cephas, Rocky, [chuckles] you know, about the identity of"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2193.576,"endTime":2196.335,"body":"Jesus Christ as the foundation of the Church.\" So there's a"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2196.335,"endTime":2199.835,"body":"complex thing going on there. To develop the Protestant view"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2199.835,"endTime":2200.115,"body":"there,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2200.875,"endTime":2205.856,"body":"we don't look for an apostle who then passes apostolicity down to"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2205.856,"endTime":2209.195,"body":"a successor. We consider an apostle to be that first"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2209.195,"endTime":2212.835,"body":"generation, and we have that apostolicity in our Church in"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2212.835,"endTime":2216.335,"body":"Scripture, not in an office that inherits Scripture."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2216.335,"endTime":2219.076,"body":"So, so the rock there would actually be Peter's"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2219.076,"endTime":2219.916,"body":"confession-"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2219.916,"endTime":2220.315,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2220.315,"endTime":2223.916,"body":"... Of Jesus as the Son of God?... Not anything"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2223.916,"endTime":2225.295,"body":"personal to him."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2225.295,"endTime":2227.266,"body":"Right, and the main, the main way to treat"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2227.266,"endTime":2230.815,"body":"that is you could, if you decide that it's a hard passage because"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2230.815,"endTime":2233.576,"body":"people have made certain claims about it, then you interpret it"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2233.576,"endTime":2236.876,"body":"in light of clear passages, and you simply don't have Peter"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2236.876,"endTime":2239.615,"body":"stand out with a profile of a leader. He calls himself a"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2239.615,"endTime":2240.996,"body":"fellow elder."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2241.755,"endTime":2244.516,"body":"You know, he just doesn't behave in a way, and no one behaves"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2244.516,"endTime":2247.695,"body":"toward him in a way that puts him forward as an authoritative"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2247.695,"endTime":2249.135,"body":"center."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2249.135,"endTime":2250.056,"body":"So this highlights one of the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2250.056,"endTime":2253.846,"body":"differences before, is it- is that Protestants are gonna say,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2253.846,"endTime":2258.175,"body":"\"This passage, at best, is debatable, but doesn't give us"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2258.175,"endTime":2259.835,"body":"the uniqueness of Peter"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2260.516,"endTime":2264.476,"body":"as the first pope in a way that maintains that authority and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2264.476,"endTime":2266.856,"body":"passes it on from generation to generation."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2267.476,"endTime":2270.815,"body":"Something so significant and distinctive to the nature of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2270.815,"endTime":2271.175,"body":"church"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2271.815,"endTime":2273.485,"body":"should have been found in the Scriptures.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2274.016,"endTime":2276.615,"body":"Catholics are gonna find it somewhere else, which they"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2276.615,"endTime":2279.916,"body":"consider authoritative, and this would be sufficient to open up"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2279.916,"endTime":2280.675,"body":"the door to that."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2281.436,"endTime":2282.626,"body":"Is that a fair way to put it, you think?"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2282.626,"endTime":2284.615,"body":"Yes, and that is another place where unwritten"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2284.615,"endTime":2288.215,"body":"tradition is gonna loom pretty large in their argument for why"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2288.215,"endTime":2291.315,"body":"you should read that passage in Matthew a particular way."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2291.315,"endTime":2293.615,"body":"That makes sense. Now, I-- back to my"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2293.615,"endTime":2296.376,"body":"question earlier about fragmentation. I was just"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2296.376,"endTime":2300.416,"body":"preaching in a church, Tremont Temple Baptist Church, just a,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2300.416,"endTime":2305.556,"body":"a incredibly beautiful church- ... In downtown Boston."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2305.556,"endTime":2308.175,"body":"And they told me, they were like, \"All the big figures, like"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2308.175,"endTime":2311.096,"body":"Moody and Billy Graham, have preached here,\" which is, which"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2311.096,"endTime":2312.565,"body":"is pretty cool. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2312.565,"endTime":2313.456,"body":"And now it's your turn."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2313.456,"endTime":2315.356,"body":"It... Yeah, exactly. [laughing] That w-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2315.356,"endTime":2318.405,"body":"yeah, fair enough. [chuckles] And, which was humbling."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2318.405,"endTime":2319.365,"body":"Now that just means don't mess it up. [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2319.365,"endTime":2322.195,"body":"[chuckles] Don't mess it up. Fair enough. But I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2322.195,"endTime":2324.315,"body":"was talking with some people there, like, I walked inside,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2324.315,"endTime":2327.056,"body":"and there was this sense of just, like, beauty, and it's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2327.056,"endTime":2331.275,"body":"transcendent, and history is built into that. I go to a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2331.275,"endTime":2331.675,"body":"church"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2332.215,"endTime":2336.735,"body":"in San Clemente, and it's called The Shoreline. Basically, people"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2336.735,"endTime":2340.536,"body":"can surf in the morning, and then if they want to just come,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2340.536,"endTime":2343.255,"body":"not literally in their bathing suit, but it's meant to be like"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2343.255,"endTime":2346.456,"body":"meeting people where they're at, and I actually think it's a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2346.456,"endTime":2349.856,"body":"strength of Protestantism that we have a range of ways you can"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2349.856,"endTime":2353.735,"body":"worship and have the church. But it makes me wonder, what"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2353.735,"endTime":2357.675,"body":"do you think is the draw to Roman Catholicism, or even maybe"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2357.675,"endTime":2361.436,"body":"to Orthodoxy, outside of the Evangelical"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2362.076,"endTime":2362.795,"body":"church?"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2365.436,"endTime":2365.775,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2366.795,"endTime":2368.675,"body":"I think it's... There's a Methodist theologian, William"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2368.675,"endTime":2371.456,"body":"Burt Pope, who talked about some of these objections to"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2371.456,"endTime":2373.856,"body":"Protestant theology and said, \"These should all be"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2373.856,"endTime":2378.295,"body":"entertained, not as defeaters, but as cautions to remind us how"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2378.295,"endTime":2381.315,"body":"to be better Protestants.\" So he would take on these criticisms"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2381.315,"endTime":2384.016,"body":"and wouldn't really own them, but say, \"We're to use these as"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2384.016,"endTime":2387.396,"body":"tools, as Protestants, to think about how to improve w- how"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2387.396,"endTime":2389.175,"body":"we're being and what we're being.\" So the rules are"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2389.175,"endTime":2392.936,"body":"something like, if you're living a Christian life, and you get"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2392.936,"endTime":2396.525,"body":"the sense from your church that this really just started in the"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2396.525,"endTime":2398.065,"body":"'70s or in the '90s-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2398.065,"endTime":2398.065,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2398.065,"endTime":2399.856,"body":"... And there weren't Christians before that,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2399.856,"endTime":2402.856,"body":"and that it's really just us, [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2403.735,"endTime":2407.476,"body":"or that the casualness of our ability to approach God is a"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2407.476,"endTime":2410.876,"body":"casualness that goes all the way to the gates of Heaven, and,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2410.876,"endTime":2414.315,"body":"like, there's no- there's never any room for formality or a"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2414.315,"endTime":2417.976,"body":"sense of awe or majesty in coming into the presence of"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2417.976,"endTime":2421.755,"body":"God. If that's sort of your experience, then the argument I"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2421.755,"endTime":2423.856,"body":"would want to give is, \"Well, step up the kind of"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2423.856,"endTime":2427.365,"body":"Protestantism you're doing.\" Like, cultivate an awareness of-"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2427.365,"endTime":2431.826,"body":"... The entire heritage of the whole church, and develop that."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2431.826,"endTime":2434.235,"body":"But you can understand how if somebody has never experienced"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2434.235,"endTime":2436.416,"body":"that, and they visit a church that does have some of those"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2436.416,"endTime":2439.996,"body":"things, they would pretty quickly, be drawn to those."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2440.675,"endTime":2441.795,"body":"And so, yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2441.795,"endTime":2444.436,"body":"Did you say the guy's name was Bird Pope?"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2444.436,"endTime":2445.456,"body":"Burt, B-U-R-T."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2445.456,"endTime":2445.996,"body":"Oh, Burt-"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2445.996,"endTime":2446.416,"body":"Two names"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2446.416,"endTime":2446.476,"body":"... Pope."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2446.476,"endTime":2447.835,"body":"William Burt Pope."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2447.835,"endTime":2448.695,"body":"Burt Pope-"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2448.695,"endTime":2448.704,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2448.704,"endTime":2450.356,"body":"... And he's a Protestant theologian."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2450.356,"endTime":2451.775,"body":"Yeah, Methodist theologian."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2451.775,"endTime":2453.356,"body":"Interesting. I got a million comments about"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2453.356,"endTime":2454.496,"body":"that one, but I'll let it go."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2454.496,"endTime":2456.775,"body":"[chuckles] Oh, yeah, the Protestant-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2456.775,"endTime":2456.786,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2456.786,"endTime":2458.795,"body":"... Named Pope. Yes, that's right. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2458.795,"endTime":2462.735,"body":"So you've seen, I think, some students from your"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2462.735,"endTime":2466.996,"body":"Torrey program, for example, I think desire, I think a bit more"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2466.996,"endTime":2469.235,"body":"formal, maybe a bit more liturgical-"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2469.235,"endTime":2469.655,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2469.655,"endTime":2470.436,"body":"... Tradition."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2471.155,"endTime":2474.856,"body":"And I know some at- some, have started attending Orthodox"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2474.856,"endTime":2479.394,"body":"churches, some Anglican. Have some, turned to Catholic"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2479.394,"endTime":2483.416,"body":"tradition as well? And if so, what would you say to them-"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2483.416,"endTime":2483.856,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2483.856,"endTime":2485.815,"body":"... About that movement?"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2485.815,"endTime":2487.396,"body":"Yeah. Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2488.056,"endTime":2489.844,"body":"right, so we recruit sort of,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2490.456,"endTime":2491.556,"body":"high-achieving,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2492.096,"endTime":2494.735,"body":"Protestant high schoolers, and we introduce them to the Great"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2494.735,"endTime":2497.536,"body":"Tradition, and one of the dangers is, if they have never"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2497.536,"endTime":2501.516,"body":"heard of anyone... I used to say before Luther, but what's the"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2501.516,"endTime":2503.396,"body":"real situation on the ground, right? If they have [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2503.396,"endTime":2507.335,"body":"never heard of anyone before the year 1990- [laughing]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2507.335,"endTime":2508.826,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2508.826,"endTime":2509.556,"body":"... Like, [chuckles] then the danger"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2509.556,"endTime":2509.775,"body":"there-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2509.775,"endTime":2509.925,"body":"That's fair"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2509.925,"endTime":2511.496,"body":"... Is when you open the riches of the Great"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2511.496,"endTime":2514.335,"body":"Tradition up to them, they see that and think, \"I never got"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2514.335,"endTime":2517.396,"body":"this at my church. There must be another organization that I can"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2517.396,"endTime":2518.925,"body":"go to to find that.\""},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2519.436,"endTime":2522.596,"body":"then that's a problem. They tend not to go Roman Catholic because"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2522.596,"endTime":2526.315,"body":"Roman Catholics are so clear and explicit about what's different"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2526.315,"endTime":2529.615,"body":"about them and how much the change is. Orthodoxy has a lot"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2529.615,"endTime":2532.175,"body":"of the same issues as Catholicism but is just vaguer"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2532.175,"endTime":2535.356,"body":"about it and has a different sort of apologetic or"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2535.356,"endTime":2536.675,"body":"proselytizing kind of pitch,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2537.295,"endTime":2539.775,"body":"and life is too short to describe the situation with"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2539.775,"endTime":2541.815,"body":"Anglicanism. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2541.815,"endTime":2542.215,"body":"Fair enough."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2542.215,"endTime":2543.996,"body":"So properly speaking, Anglicanism is a"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2543.996,"endTime":2544.715,"body":"Protestant movement-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2544.715,"endTime":2544.726,"body":"Yes"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2544.726,"endTime":2545.396,"body":"... Based on the-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2545.396,"endTime":2545.715,"body":"That's right"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2545.715,"endTime":2547.115,"body":"... Thirty-Nine Articles,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2547.675,"endTime":2550.476,"body":"but local results may vary in how they describe that."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2550.476,"endTime":2551.036,"body":"That's right."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2551.036,"endTime":2551.195,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2551.195,"endTime":2552.326,"body":"I am still Protestant. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2552.326,"endTime":2552.835,"body":"There you go."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2552.835,"endTime":2553.036,"body":"[laughing]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2553.036,"endTime":2553.996,"body":"Good, good."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2553.996,"endTime":2554.525,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2556.135,"endTime":2559.076,"body":"My main advice for students like that is, think"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2559.076,"endTime":2560.235,"body":"hard about this,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2560.775,"endTime":2564.135,"body":"consider blooming where you're planted, and consider being the"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2564.135,"endTime":2566.916,"body":"person for the next generation of people in your church who"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2566.916,"endTime":2570.275,"body":"does talk about Irenaeus and Athanasius and Augustine and"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2570.275,"endTime":2571.135,"body":"Aquinas."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2571.775,"endTime":2575.215,"body":"If everyone who discovers that stuff decides it's not available"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2575.215,"endTime":2577.735,"body":"at their local outlet and leaves, then they're"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2577.735,"endTime":2581.635,"body":"perpetuating the poverty of that local outlet. And especially if"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2581.635,"endTime":2585.896,"body":"your church managed to get you saved, that's a serious thing to"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2585.896,"endTime":2587.556,"body":"consider- ... Like, how that happened-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2587.556,"endTime":2587.565,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2587.565,"endTime":2588.876,"body":"... And what are you gonna do about that?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2589.731,"endTime":2591.592,"body":"... Fred, I have a last question for you. I think"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2591.592,"endTime":2593.831,"body":"this is the first episode we've done on kind of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2593.831,"endTime":2595.902,"body":"Catholic-Protestant differences-"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2595.902,"endTime":2595.931,"body":"I believe it is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2595.931,"endTime":2597.552,"body":"-on the podcast. It's certainly the first one"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2597.552,"endTime":2601.371,"body":"I've done on YouTube, because I'm, I'm an apologist"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2601.371,"endTime":2604.512,"body":"and evangelist. I don't spend a lot of time on these"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2604.512,"endTime":2607.791,"body":"conversations. To be completely honest, they don't interest me"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2607.791,"endTime":2610.641,"body":"as much as the evidence for God, proof for the Scripture, just"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2610.641,"endTime":2613.492,"body":"'cause the way I'm wired. But you've been in some of these"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2613.492,"endTime":2617.672,"body":"conversations. So two-part question- How have you seen this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2617.672,"endTime":2621.072,"body":"conversation shift in the time you've been a part of it over"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2621.072,"endTime":2623.911,"body":"the past few decades? I guess we could say the '90s, since that's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2623.911,"endTime":2625.521,"body":"come up [chuckles] a few times."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2625.521,"endTime":2625.552,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2625.552,"endTime":2627.931,"body":"And where would you like to see these kind of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2627.931,"endTime":2631.992,"body":"conversations go? What would be most productive for the kingdom"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2631.992,"endTime":2634.472,"body":"to see these kind of conversations head to?"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2634.472,"endTime":2634.802,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2635.391,"endTime":2638.092,"body":"And, you know, I'm, I'm not an apologist, but I'm a Trinitarian"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2638.092,"endTime":2641.291,"body":"theologian, and so you think about the, uh- ... Choice there,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2641.291,"endTime":2644.552,"body":"to focus on the doctrine of the Trinity. It's a zone of"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2644.552,"endTime":2646.362,"body":"tremendous convergence and unity-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2646.362,"endTime":2646.362,"body":"That's right"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2646.362,"endTime":2648.572,"body":"... Among all kinds of Christians. So,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2649.152,"endTime":2650.851,"body":"I can say I have a high tolerance for all kinds of"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2650.851,"endTime":2652.74,"body":"Christians, but mainly that's because,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2654.112,"endTime":2656.092,"body":"we agree on the doctrine of the Trinity, and there's"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2656.092,"endTime":2658.972,"body":"something really powerful about that fundamental unity about,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2658.972,"endTime":2661.452,"body":"belief in Father, Son, and Holy Spirit."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2662.552,"endTime":2663.652,"body":"Speaking as a Protestant,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2664.192,"endTime":2666.492,"body":"who really loves being Protestant and considers it a"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2666.492,"endTime":2667.612,"body":"positive thing, and is,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2668.202,"endTime":2670.952,"body":"the most helpful way of being a member of the one Church, you"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2670.952,"endTime":2673.632,"body":"know, in a way that has a clear confession of the authority of"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2673.632,"endTime":2678.112,"body":"Scripture and of salvation by grace. Some really promising"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2678.112,"endTime":2679.922,"body":"areas are a greater,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2680.632,"endTime":2683.592,"body":"development of Protestant self-consciousness, of kind of"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2683.592,"endTime":2687.512,"body":"an awareness that this is a 500-year-old tradition now, even"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2687.512,"endTime":2690.391,"body":"as a sub-tradition, even as a reform movement within the one"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2690.391,"endTime":2693.152,"body":"Church. And what that means is, if you think you know what a"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2693.152,"endTime":2696.472,"body":"Protestant is, but you've never studied it, there's reason to"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2696.472,"endTime":2699.572,"body":"wonder if you actually have an intelligent, adult understanding"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2699.572,"endTime":2700.831,"body":"of what it is to be Protestant."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2700.831,"endTime":2701.391,"body":"That's fair."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2701.391,"endTime":2703.211,"body":"We talk about the Dark Ages, you know, which is"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2703.211,"endTime":2705.771,"body":"kind of a humanist propaganda about the time when Christianity"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2705.771,"endTime":2706.961,"body":"was a major influence in the world."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2706.961,"endTime":2706.972,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2706.972,"endTime":2708.291,"body":"But we talk about, \"Oh, this, these Dark"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2708.291,"endTime":2711.452,"body":"Ages, you know, before the Reformation and Renaissance.\""},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2711.452,"endTime":2713.431,"body":"And they're mainly dark 'cause we don't read anything from them"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2713.431,"endTime":2715.532,"body":"and don't know anything about them- ... Right? Actually, lots"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2715.532,"endTime":2718.672,"body":"of great things were happening there. We are currently in"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2718.672,"endTime":2722.512,"body":"danger of having cultivated a second Dark Ages between Luther"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2722.512,"endTime":2725.76,"body":"and Calvin and the '90s. [laughs] You know?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2725.76,"endTime":2725.771,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2725.771,"endTime":2728.831,"body":"Between the early 16th century and the 21st"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2728.831,"endTime":2731.952,"body":"century, there's this period where lots of brilliant"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2731.952,"endTime":2735.621,"body":"Protestants were doing great things, gigantic tomes of"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2735.621,"endTime":2738.911,"body":"theology. They're all locked away in Latin, and that's why we"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2738.911,"endTime":2742.452,"body":"haven't been reading them. But just in the last 10, 20 years,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2742.452,"endTime":2745.871,"body":"more of those books are now available in affordable"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2745.871,"endTime":2749.692,"body":"paperbacks, in readable English, and you can actually look at the"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2749.692,"endTime":2752.751,"body":"Leiden Synopsis, Petrus van Maastricht. Increasingly, you"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2752.751,"endTime":2756.791,"body":"can find all kinds of great Protestant theology from those"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2756.791,"endTime":2759.672,"body":"middle centuries- ... Which I just want to say is most"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2760.251,"endTime":2763.652,"body":"of Reformation theology's history, right? It's, it's kind"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2763.652,"endTime":2764.981,"body":"of surprising when you look at it to realize,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2765.771,"endTime":2769.311,"body":"when I tell you I grew up Protestant, what I really mean"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2769.311,"endTime":2772.521,"body":"is what the views of my youth pastor were. [laughs]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2772.521,"endTime":2772.891,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2772.891,"endTime":2775.311,"body":"Right? And, and Luther as, like, someone I dress"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2775.311,"endTime":2778.072,"body":"up for on Reformation Day, uh- ... Dress up as on Reformation"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2778.072,"endTime":2781.351,"body":"Day, but really zero content. Like,"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2781.911,"endTime":2784.931,"body":"apparently internalizing the idea that to be Protestant, all"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2784.931,"endTime":2787.351,"body":"I do is read the Bible and nothing else. Well, there"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2787.351,"endTime":2790.311,"body":"actually is a wonderful, rich Protestant history, and if you"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2790.311,"endTime":2794.751,"body":"want to dwell deep in the entire Christian history, one way to do"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2794.751,"endTime":2797.771,"body":"it is by focusing on that middle distance of great Protestantism."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2798.871,"endTime":2800.572,"body":"Fred, thanks for coming on. I got a ton more"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2800.572,"endTime":2802.092,"body":"questions for you about this."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2802.711,"endTime":2805.592,"body":"I'd invite our listeners and viewers, if you want a follow-up"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2805.592,"endTime":2808.092,"body":"on this, let us know how we could do it in a way that would"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2808.092,"endTime":2811.032,"body":"be helpful. Appreciate what you're doing at the Torrey"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2811.032,"endTime":2814.942,"body":"Honors College. It actually started in the '90s, back to the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2814.942,"endTime":2815.472,"body":"'90s-"},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2815.472,"endTime":2815.481,"body":"That's right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2815.481,"endTime":2816.282,"body":"... When I was here."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2816.282,"endTime":2816.282,"body":"[chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2816.282,"endTime":2817.972,"body":"And had it started earlier, I would've done"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2817.972,"endTime":2818.952,"body":"it in such"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2819.572,"endTime":2822.612,"body":"a heartbeat. The conversations you guys are having, teaching"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2822.612,"endTime":2825.931,"body":"people how to think, read not only great literature, but great"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2825.931,"endTime":2828.831,"body":"church history, and just wrestling with it and thinking"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2828.831,"endTime":2831.512,"body":"about it, learn to think theologically and scientifically"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2831.512,"endTime":2835.012,"body":"and philosophically, I think is one of the great undergrad"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2835.012,"endTime":2837.041,"body":"programs in the country and beyond."},{"speaker":"Fred Sanders","startTime":2837.041,"endTime":2837.092,"body":"Thanks."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2837.092,"endTime":2839.231,"body":"So we appreciate, really appreciate a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2839.231,"endTime":2842.311,"body":"ton what you're doing. If you are listening on the Think"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2842.311,"endTime":2844.592,"body":"Biblically podcast, send your questions in to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2844.592,"endTime":2848.722,"body":"thinkbiblically@biola.edu. Let us know what you think about"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2848.722,"endTime":2851.371,"body":"this episode. This has been over eight years we've been doing"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2851.371,"endTime":2853.592,"body":"this, Scott, and we haven't weighed into a topic like this."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2853.592,"endTime":2856.072,"body":"We'd love to know if you want more of this topic. If you're"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2856.072,"endTime":2860.791,"body":"watching this on YouTube, make sure you hit Subscribe, and, let"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2860.791,"endTime":2863.711,"body":"me know if on my channel you would enjoy more of this kind of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2863.711,"endTime":2867.271,"body":"dialogue and depth as well. Thanks for listening and joining"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2867.271,"endTime":2874.69,"body":"us. [upbeat music]"}]}