Sean McDowell: 0:00

[upbeat music] Why is there a crisis of identity today? And how can an understanding of God's character transform the way we see ourselves? Our guest today is Dr. JP Foster, senior pastor at Faithful Central Bible Church, and he's got a new book out he co-wrote with Dr. Matt Williams, also a professor at Talbot Biola University. It's called Finding Freedom in Jesus. Great book. You gave me the privilege of endorsing it, so thank you for coming on the Think Biblically Podcast and being willing to talk about it.

JP Foster: 0:33

No, it's an honor to be here. Thank you so much, and thanks for your endorsement.

Sean McDowell: 0:36

Oh my goodness, yeah.

JP Foster: 0:37

It means a lot.

Scott Rae: 0:37

You didn't know that your coming on was part of the the part of the deal on that.[laughs]

Sean McDowell: 0:41

[laughs]

JP Foster: 0:42

I would've, I would've came on regardless.

Scott Rae: 0:43

[laughs]

Sean McDowell: 0:44

No, that's, that that's super kind. Well, I enjoyed your book so much. I sent Matt a note. I don't know if he forwarded this to you, but I sent it to my pastor and I said, "Hey, it's up to you, but you might-

JP Foster: 0:55

Yeah

Sean McDowell: 0:55

... Think about doing a series on this book if it fits."

JP Foster: 0:58

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 0:58

'Cause I thought the way you talk about God's-

Scott Rae: 1:00

Really good

Sean McDowell: 1:00

... Character, which we're gonna get into-

JP Foster: 1:02

Yeah

Sean McDowell: 1:02

... And relate it today, I think is so timely. But at the core of your book is the question, who am I? Why is identity such a pressing issue today, and what do you think are some common ways that identity is falsely grounded in our culture?

JP Foster: 1:20

Yeah, identity is huge. I think that when you look at the culture that we live in, we are told a few things. One thing we're always told is, live how you feel. It's dangerous. Another thing that we hear in our culture all the time is live your truth, and you can, be whoever you wanna be. And I think when you look at what scripture says as Christians, as believers, even therapists will tell you this, sometimes how I feel might not necessarily be the truth.

Sean McDowell: 1:51

Amen.

JP Foster: 1:51

And I think as Christians, as believers, sometimes we feel a certain way, but it doesn't necessarily mean the way we think or feel it in that moment is the truth. So I think, in our culture today, we're dealing with, issues of identity, who am I? And I think if we're not careful, we can fall into the trap and allow the enemy to build strongholds in our minds and allow us to believe lies. And so I think Finding Freedom in Jesus helps us to realize who we are in Christ, how to be anchored in Jesus, and how God has created us and who He's created us to be, and what a blessing it is to be in relationship with Him through Christ. And so when you hear things like, live your truth, Jesus says, "I am the way, the truth, the life." The Word of God also says, "You shall know the truth, and the truth will set you free." And so I think that when we know who we really are, when we know who and how God has created us... I say it like this sometimes in in preachy terms. When I know... I once I know who I, whose I am, I know who I am. And so the more I understand the God that I serve, the more I understand who I am. And the more I understand God, His essence, His nature, His character, as a believer, it draws me to Him, towards Him, because now I know who it is who I'm in relationship with, covenant relationship and communion with. And so I think the, it empowers us as Christians, actually, the more we know about God and the more we know about our own identity.

Sean McDowell: 3:13

And by the way, before you jump in, Scott, what you did, I want, I don't want people to miss it, is people often say live your truth.

JP Foster: 3:20

Truth.

Sean McDowell: 3:20

So you took that lie in culture-

JP Foster: 3:23

Yeah

Sean McDowell: 3:23

... 'cause people can have their own beliefs, but they can't have their own truth.

JP Foster: 3:27

Truth.

Sean McDowell: 3:27

Replace it with the truth, and when we're vertically related to Christ, then we can horizontally-

JP Foster: 3:34

Horizontally

Sean McDowell: 3:34

... Relate to other people properly. That's kind of a model of what you do throughout the book.

Scott Rae: 3:39

Yeah, that's what I wanna tell people if, you know, God's saying, "Live my truth."

JP Foster: 3:43

Yes.

Scott Rae: 3:44

And I want, I want, I want my truth to be God's truth as best I can. Now, culturally, JP, there's so many things that we ground our identity in.

JP Foster: 3:55

Yeah.

Scott Rae: 3:55

I'd say either peripheral things, not central, or even things that are just blatantly false-... Like you described. But how how does the book ultimately seek to answer that question? So put it, put it in a sentence or two. Seek to answer that question, who am I?

JP Foster: 4:14

I am who God has created me to be. In relationship with God, I have freedom, and that freedom comes through Jesus. That's the simplest way for me to put it. If you look at the culture and how it is that the culture describes, our relationship to God and wrestling with that tension-... I do believe that some of the lies that we wrestle with or deception we deal with is, issues we've had growing up. Now, Matt will, Matt will tell you this, his wife's a licensed therapist. My wife is also a licensed therapist. And so if you look at issues that we've had to wrestle with, even from adolescence, so from those early days when we're being shaped and molded-

Scott Rae: 4:56

Mm-hmm

JP Foster: 4:56

... People are speaking into our lives, I think one of the issues that we ran into, even in talking to students or parishioners, is that some of the lies that have been spoken over them from either their parents, it could be your mother, your father, a sibling, it could be a classmate, it could be a teacher, it could be a coach, a mentor. But if they've said things about you that stuck and they weren't true, even classmates, you know how it is. Now we have cyberbullying, which is on a whole 'nother level.

Scott Rae: 5:21

Mm-hmm.

Sean McDowell: 5:21

That's right.

JP Foster: 5:21

But when people, some things people say about you, they stick, and if I'm not careful, I can then believe that lie, and it can stick, and I can see myself through the lens of that deception or that, or that word that was spoken over me that isn't true. And so I think, scripture says to us that we should pull down every stronghold and call it into obedience to Jesus. But if you read that scripture, it also goes on to tell us that we have to make sure that the enemy's not building up knowledge of against Jesus Christ. So now you're talking about finding freedom in Jesus. So that means any knowledge that comes against the knowledge of God-

Scott Rae: 5:57

Mm-hmm

JP Foster: 5:57

... We must demolish those strongholds and call them into obedience to Jesus. And so when I think about some of the lies that have been spoken over my life or your life or anyone's life that may be listening, I have to remember that I have to get whatever that lie is or whatever that word was and ask myself, "What does God's word say about me?" And I have to then pull it down and call it into obedience to Jesus. And so when we go through these 21 terms, we have three different ways it's categorized.

Scott Rae: 6:22

Mm-hmm.

JP Foster: 6:22

We have created in Christ.

Scott Rae: 6:23

Mm-hmm.

JP Foster: 6:24

We have restored in Christ, and we have confident in Christ. And I think it starts there-... Because the first thing I must know as a human, is I was created by God. God, I'm

Scott Rae: 6:34

Amen

JP Foster: 6:34

... I'm an image-bearer. So if you've been created in the image of God, and it, and you know this, Scott, whether I believe in Jesus or not, whether I believe in God or not, I still, I still bear the Imago Dei.

Scott Rae: 6:45

100%.

JP Foster: 6:46

I still have the image of God. So we start with the image of God. I'm created in Christ, then I'm restored. We know this. We all come to God with baggage. So when I gave my life to Christ, I didn't grow up in church. So when I came to Christ, I had to wrestle with this tension between the habits I had built up over time living in the culture that we're in, and then now this is what God's word says about me. And I had to align my lifestyle and habits and surrender them to obedience to God and His Word, and I think that's where the restoration part comes in. I have to know that I'm rescued, I have to know that I'm redeemed, I have to know that I'm forgiven, I have to know that I'm loved. But then the latter part of it is confidence in Christ. I have to know that if I'm in Christ, I have a relationship with God, I should be hopeful. If I have a relationship with God, I should also know that I'm victorious, that I'm not journeying this life alone, and that I'm rest- no matter what trial or test I face, I'm also in it with God, who Scripture describes is the great I Am, Emmanuel, God with us. And

Scott Rae: 7:48

Amen.

JP Foster: 7:48

Yeah.

Scott Rae: 7:49

Yeah, those two components that you describe, both the people who are victorious over these and the people who wrestle-

JP Foster: 7:56

Yes

Scott Rae: 7:57

... With false views of identity, that's how, this is what makes this book, I think, really different than anything I've ever seen on the spiritual life,'cause each chapter's got a QR code with videos-

JP Foster: 8:11

Yeah

Scott Rae: 8:11

... From people describing how they embraced something about their identity that was false and what it did to the wreckage that it caused in their lives, and these are, these are very real, gut-wrenching stories-

JP Foster: 8:23

Yeah

Scott Rae: 8:23

... That these folks tell.

JP Foster: 8:24

Yeah.

Scott Rae: 8:25

And then the, you know, the second part of this is similar. You've got, you got stories about people who emerged victorious-

JP Foster: 8:32

Yes

Scott Rae: 8:33

... After having gotten their identity correct.

JP Foster: 8:35

Yes.

Scott Rae: 8:36

Now part of the, part of the question is on these victorious parts, you know, so I think it's one thing, I think, to know and understand these principles, these concepts. It's another thing for that to go from our head down into the-

JP Foster: 8:50

Yeah

Scott Rae: 8:51

... The deep recesses of our soul.

JP Foster: 8:53

Oh, yeah.

Scott Rae: 8:54

And having, you know, having a wife who's a therapist like you describe certainly is helpful in that, but yeah. How does the book help people get just from the intellectual part of this to having this, having these things become deeply resonant in your soul?

JP Foster: 9:08

Yeah. So in the beginning chapters of the book, it, we describe-

Scott Rae: 9:12

Mm-hmm

JP Foster: 9:12

... A process of going from information to transformation.

Scott Rae: 9:15

Mm-hmm.

JP Foster: 9:16

And so when you, when you're, when you start out, you realize that there's this information, but it can't have impact unless we allow it to be transformation in our lives. And so how do I go from head knowledge to heart knowledge? We've deliberately added sections in the book where you see there's testimonies.

Scott Rae: 9:31

Mm-hmm.

JP Foster: 9:31

We also have a reflections section at the end of every chapter-

Scott Rae: 9:33

Mm-hmm

JP Foster: 9:34

... Where it clearly defines whatever term it is, and then after you, it's defined, it gives you exercises you can do to actually make it go from head knowledge to heart knowledge. But-... Scripture actually gives us the best, way to do that. In Romans 12-1-2-... Scripture says,"I beseech thee therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God-"

Scott Rae: 9:54

Amen

JP Foster: 9:56

"... That you present your body a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service." Then chap- verse two says, "Do not be conformed to this world," we're talking about the culture, right?

Scott Rae: 10:05

Mm-hmm.

JP Foster: 10:06

"But be transformed by the renewing of your mind."

Scott Rae: 10:08

Mm-hmm.

JP Foster: 10:08

And I think it goes from head knowledge, to being lived out in our lives. So think about this. Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. I think the transformation takes place from information to transformation in our mind. So when we read Scripture, it says, "Be transformed by the renewing of your mind," I think sometimes we don't realize that our mind actually has a massive role in our spiritual formation. And so it is me now not just being a hearer of the Word, but being a doer also. And so Scripture reveals to us that there is a way that this culture wants to mold us, being conformed to this world, the way that this culture wants to mold us and shape us so that we look more and more like the culture. But the Word of God says, "Be transformed by the renewing of your mind." So my mind has to understand what God's Word says in order to live it out. One aspect of spiritual formation is understanding that the mind and the heart, impact how we behave. So the way that our heart and mind believe what God's Word says, I'll give, I'll give you an example. So if we have... I have got the Word of God in my hand.

Scott Rae: 11:09

Mm-hmm.

JP Foster: 11:09

It, it's content. All right? It is content.

Scott Rae: 11:12

Mm-hmm. Sure.

JP Foster: 11:13

But it is how that content becomes central in my life that it's actually lived out. And so I think when we read Scripture, the centrality of the Word of God determines how I, how I actually behave. Some may call it our worldview. So many people have a worldview, but if my worldview solely comes from God's Word-

Scott Rae: 11:34

Mm-hmm

JP Foster: 11:34

... Then that means I live my life and make my decisions based on what God's Word says. So when I think about my life being transformed and my mind being transformed into the image of Christ, then I realize that in order for it to go from information to transformation, I have to allow my mind to be renewed about whatever topic or whatever term I may be, may be reading.

Scott Rae: 11:54

You know, in my experience, books tend to be either theology, which is important, light on application, or application with the preferred translation that fits-

JP Foster: 12:06

[laughs]

Scott Rae: 12:06

... The point the person wants to make relationally. There's not a lot of books that start with deep ground theology, let alone the character of God, and then the application comes out of that-

JP Foster: 12:18

Oh, okay

Scott Rae: 12:18

... Rather than just searching for some way-

JP Foster: 12:20

Yeah

Scott Rae: 12:20

... To apply it.

Sean McDowell: 12:21

And I think you guys, you guys have done this.

JP Foster: 12:23

Thank you.

Sean McDowell: 12:23

And I haven't seen a lot of books this way, so tell me, tell me the backstory.

JP Foster: 12:27

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 12:27

Like, why this book? Why the two of you together?

JP Foster: 12:29

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 12:29

Was this...'Cause some books are written by, like, a crisis, like there's a crisis of identity.

JP Foster: 12:34

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 12:35

What drove this, and how did you guys write it together?

JP Foster: 12:38

So Matt tells this story better than I do. We made the decision to write this book on Zoom-

Sean McDowell: 12:44

Okay. [laughs]

JP Foster: 12:45

... During COVID. [laughs]

Sean McDowell: 12:46

Really?

JP Foster: 12:46

Yeah, I'm dead serious. So we're we're on Zoom, and I literally, I asked Matt-... I said, "Man, how can I pray for you?" He says,"Man, I want to pray... I want... Just pray for me about this book. I'm gonna, I'm gonna write another book." And I, and I said, "Well, before I pray for you, can I write it with you?" And I was joking.

Sean McDowell: 13:00

Oh.[laughs]

JP Foster: 13:02

And he was like, "Are you serious?" I was like,"Yeah." He's like, "Are you serious?" I was like,"Absolutely."

Sean McDowell: 13:06

Wow.

JP Foster: 13:06

So then literally after I prayed-

Sean McDowell: 13:07

You didn't even know what it was about.

JP Foster: 13:08

And I, and I knew nothing.

Sean McDowell: 13:10

[laughs]

JP Foster: 13:10

I had no idea what the book was about.

Sean McDowell: 13:12

Huh.

JP Foster: 13:12

And then we met. After that. We met in person. We met on Zoom. We kept on meeting, and then we started. We had about He said, "I want, I wanna do one on finding freedom in Jesus." We realized-

Sean McDowell: 13:20

Okay

JP Foster: 13:21

... That there is a widening gap of biblical illiteracy.

Sean McDowell: 13:25

That's a fact.

JP Foster: 13:26

He noticed that, and I noticed that. Teaching biblical, interpretation and spiritual formation and being a pastor, I noticed that there is the gap-... Of biblical illiteracy is widening.

Sean McDowell: 13:37

From when you started-

JP Foster: 13:38

Oh, yeah

Sean McDowell: 13:38

... You noticed for sure.

JP Foster: 13:39

Oh, you just-

Sean McDowell: 13:39

Okay

JP Foster: 13:39

... You can see it.

Sean McDowell: 13:40

Yeah.

JP Foster: 13:40

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 13:41

Sure.

JP Foster: 13:41

I can see it. I've been blessed... To teach here about, for about eight years. But I've been pastoring for a while, and I've seen it with the, from young adult- our youth to young adults to our adults. There's a widening gap. Matt noticed the same thing. I said, "Well, how can we..." We're counseling students, I'm counseling church members-... And I'm noticing that these issues they're wrestling with really come down to their identity in Christ. So we started-

Sean McDowell: 14:04

Right

JP Foster: 14:04

... With 60 about 60-something terms. We said, "How can we get all of these terms and narrow them down, and then what number do we pick?" So I told him, I said, "Matt, I have an idea. I don't know what your thoughts are, but I have an idea." I said, "Often we make these books for college students, Christian universities, seminaries, and sometimes we miss the church." I said, "There are gonna be more parishioners or congregants in the pews of a church than there are gonna be in a seminary classroom." I said, "What if we balanced it in a way that we can meet the needs of both the university and the church?" Because the church desperately needs this. So think about a pastor. If his church members at, knew who they were in Jesus just through this process of these 21 terms, you have a healthier church.

Sean McDowell: 14:51

Amen to that, no question about it.

JP Foster: 14:53

You have a healthier church.

Sean McDowell: 14:54

Yeah.

JP Foster: 14:54

It's transformative. Then we, so we went through the process of what do we do with these twen- how do we pick these 21 terms? We picked 21 because normally, especially specifically in a, in the African American church, we have a, we normally start the year off with a 21-day fast.

Sean McDowell: 15:07

Oh.

JP Foster: 15:07

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 15:08

Okay.

JP Foster: 15:08

So I said, "What if we got 21 terms and we can, then we can kind of give churches options?" We can do a 21-day fast, which mine is, and I have a host of churches now that are gonna join me on the 21-day fast-... Which is phenomenal. We can do a 21-day fast, a devotional. It can be a personal devotional. The reflections are for personal devotional or life group devotionals. So we, you can have, a whole life group at your church. But then you mentioned this, Sean.

Sean McDowell: 15:36

Mm-hmm.

JP Foster: 15:36

It's actually the seven, the 21 terms are broken up into seven, three sections of seven.

Sean McDowell: 15:41

Mm-hmm.

JP Foster: 15:41

So if you wanna do a sermon series, you can do seven now-

Sean McDowell: 15:45

There you go

JP Foster: 15:45

... Seven later, or you can do all 21 at once. So I'm doing, I'm in the middle of doing the series, with the terms. So the impact of it is significant. So then we went back and then we said, "Well, how do we, how do we meet both?" 'Cause there has to be a standard of theology-

Sean McDowell: 16:00

Mm-hmm

JP Foster: 16:00

... Right? But then there also has to be, some practicality. How can it practically impact people's lives? So Matt and I went back and forth. You know, Matt is a New Testament scholar.

Sean McDowell: 16:08

He is, yeah.

JP Foster: 16:09

The amount of books Matt brought to our next meeting-

Sean McDowell: 16:12

[laughs]

JP Foster: 16:12

... I was like, "Are we writing a dissertation?"[laughs] But we literally went through every term. So

Sean McDowell: 16:17

Yeah

JP Foster: 16:17

... I went and bought books. We went through every single term. We narrowed it down to 21 terms. We picked which terms we were, we were gonna do. We went back and looked at what we had, and then we funneled it, and to make it as concise as possible. Then we said, "How can we then bring in QR codes where they, where it's testimonies of people who have gone through these terms-

Sean McDowell: 16:36

Yeah

JP Foster: 16:36

... And then their life has been impacted?" We have people who were addicted. We have people who were abused. We have people who didn't feel that they were loved or beautiful, and they're sharing their testimonies about how they felt in that particular moment of their life, how they've gone through this term, and after going through the particular term, how they see their life completely different. That's the information now going to transformation. And so there's lived-out tef- testimonies in the book that shows us, but then there's also the practical application of... And that kind of comes from my preaching. So, one of my degrees is in homiletics.

Sean McDowell: 17:09

Okay.

JP Foster: 17:09

And in hermeneutics you have to go from, what is God saying to the original people, right? So how do I get this, what we call timeless truth?

Sean McDowell: 17:19

And by the way, if I could jump in, hermeneutics is interpreting the scriptures.

JP Foster: 17:23

Yes.

Sean McDowell: 17:23

Homiletics, preaching-

JP Foster: 17:24

Preaching

Sean McDowell: 17:25

... The scriptures.

JP Foster: 17:25

Exactly, yeah. Thank you. So we have, the truth that God, that God intended-

Sean McDowell: 17:31

Mm-hmm

JP Foster: 17:32

... For his particular audience in that time, and then how do I, once I know the meaning of the text, how do I get the meaning of the text that God intended in that time and bring that timeless truth to our time today?

Sean McDowell: 17:44

That's right.

JP Foster: 17:45

And so our our intention was now that we know what this looks like theologically-... How do we make this now practical to how we live it out today? And so we had to take the theological truth of what it meant in in Jesus' time or in the Old Testament and then bring it to how it applies to our lives today. I think that was how it was balanced with rich theology, this is what God's Word says. I'll give you an example. This is what love means in our culture.

Sean McDowell: 18:09

Yep.

JP Foster: 18:09

This is what love means in the Old Testament.

Sean McDowell: 18:11

Mm-hmm.

JP Foster: 18:11

This is what love means in the New Testament, and now let's look at how that impacts our life today with a concise definition of what that actually looks like. And so that's really how we began to organize the book, but Matt did a great job. I mean, he's an amazing scholar.

Sean McDowell: 18:24

He is, yeah He teaches the Gospel of John, and students just love it.

JP Foster: 18:28

Oh, it's incredible.

Sean McDowell: 18:29

Love it on so many levels.

Scott Rae: 18:30

Now, let me, let me back up just a little bit. Why do you think that so many Christians don't know much about their identity in Christ?

JP Foster: 18:40

Yeah.

Scott Rae: 18:40

Or if they do, it just, it's just this sort of isolated theological truth that doesn't really impact who they are.

JP Foster: 18:48

Yeah. I think there's several reasons. I think one is the... I think this culture we live in now is really pulling on on our youth, and young adults. They, with their cell phones, they have... And tablets, they have access to literally everything at any moment, and I think the cultural influence is impacting them as well. I think there's a widening gap because, there were days where you went to church, you were there all day. Sunday school classes, a lot of church don't do Sunday school. They don't... We had teaching ministries-

Scott Rae: 19:16

Mm-hmm

JP Foster: 19:17

... Years ago, and I think a lot of those teaching ministries are not as prevalent as they used to be. That's one reason.

Scott Rae: 19:23

We had, we had degree programs to equip those people.

JP Foster: 19:25

See?

Scott Rae: 19:26

And we've closed those programs.

JP Foster: 19:27

See? Yeah.

Scott Rae: 19:28

'Cause there were, there were no jobs in the churches for those.

JP Foster: 19:31

See what I mean? And so I think that, the teaching ministry and discipling has impacted the church heavily. But I also think that there's a cultural impact, there's a church impact, where the churches are, we have to disciple. What happens to someone after they say yes in your, in your congregation to Jesus? What's the discipleship track? What is the church intentionally doing to make sure that the believers, the disciples can grow in saving knowledge of Jesus? And I think sometimes, not all of our churches, but some of them, as soon as someone says yes to Jesus, then that's it. Praise God. Just keep coming on Sunday.

Scott Rae: 20:03

[laughs]

JP Foster: 20:03

That's not enough. That's not enough. And the third reason I would say is just personal. For some reason, they're not, they're not as vested in reading their Bible. They, I don't, I don't know how you can love God, give your life to him, and not be intentional about reading. And I think those, the that's why we see biblical literacy... I'm in class or preaching, especially with the youth or young adults, and you're mentioning, "Remember when Moses..." And they're looking like-

Scott Rae: 20:30

Who?[laughs]

JP Foster: 20:32

"You remember when Paul was shipwrecked?" And they're looking like... His ship was wrecked. You know? And I'm, and in my mind I'm saying, "Whoa. They don't, they don't know some of the basic stories." I mean, that's how we got the songs in Sunday school. Our Father Abraham-

Sean McDowell: 20:45

Exactly

JP Foster: 20:46

... Came from us knowing the biblical stories, when we were younger. And I think those those are just a few reasons why I think there's a widening gap unfortunately.

Sean McDowell: 20:55

So the title is Finding Freedom in Jesus. One of my first thoughts when I saw it is I wonder how you and Matt define freedom, 'cause when I ask students to define freedom, the typical answer is,"Do whatever you want-"

JP Foster: 21:08

Oh, no

Sean McDowell: 21:08

... "without restraint." So freedom is no one telling me how to live my life.

JP Foster: 21:13

No.

Sean McDowell: 21:13

No one telling me how to identify. I get to be the author of my life, live my truth. What kind of freedom are we talking about, and why is that freedom so attractive?

JP Foster: 21:23

Yeah, so this is actually one of the terms that made Matt stop. Like, he would... We were studying the terms. This is the one that he wrestled with the most. He said, "Wait." He, he's just like, "JP, you're not gonna believe this." He's going through this term on freedom, and he realized that exactly what you described is what the culture says about freedom. Freedom is do whatever you want to. You can have whatever you want to. Just-

Sean McDowell: 21:42

Just don't hurt anybody

JP Foster: 21:43

... Just have at it, right?

Sean McDowell: 21:44

[laughs]

JP Foster: 21:45

But we realized when you're following the term, even from Adam and Eve in the garden, that freedom meant you can... God says, "You can eat freely-"... "of anything in the garden. Just don't touch this." And so we realized that there was freedom. When freedom is mentioned, freedom is actually mentioned for the first time with boundaries.

Sean McDowell: 22:05

Hm.

JP Foster: 22:05

And we don't look at it like that. We don't look at the fact that the freedom actually does have boundaries. And so when we looked at the term consistently, we realized that... Think about this. You, I believe you have children.

Sean McDowell: 22:15

I do. I got three kids, yeah.

JP Foster: 22:16

There you go. And I have two.

Sean McDowell: 22:18

Yeah.

JP Foster: 22:18

And when I look at having, being a parent, I raise my kids because I love them with boundaries.

Sean McDowell: 22:24

That's right.

JP Foster: 22:26

And how loving would God be if he just let us... We have free will, but he he, those, our ability to do what we have to do, he gives us boundaries in order to do that. And so I think freedom, the Word of God says, that we're free in Jesus Christ. And so when I think about being free, I cannot look at being free without understanding that God has created boundaries in how I live my life. And so when I look at scripture, when I used to look at scripture when I was younger before I came to church, the biggest issue I had was I felt the Bible was a book of do's and don'ts. Don't do this, do this. Don't do that, do this. And then I realized, even reading the law and understanding, the genres in scripture, that the law was actually intended, to be relational. So when you look, when you trace scripture, the law wasn't given just to tell you, "Do this. Don't do that." It was a covenantal relationship with God that came with relational aspects of how to live vertically-... And how to live horizontally. If you look at the 10 Commandments, the first four are vertical-

Sean McDowell: 23:28

That's right

JP Foster: 23:28

... The latter six are horizontal. So you see that these, this is actually how we can live in harmony and actually how we can thrive. And Matt noticed that when you continue to look at what freedom looks like, the boundaries are teaching us how it is we can live together in harmony, but how we can live a life that is thriving and a life that honors God.

Sean McDowell: 23:46

And they're not just random boundaries.

JP Foster: 23:48

No.

Sean McDowell: 23:48

It says in Deuteronomy 10, right, before they enter the Promised Land-

JP Foster: 23:51

Yes

Sean McDowell: 23:51

... "Love Lord God with your heart, your soul, your mind, and your strength-

JP Foster: 23:54

Yeah

Sean McDowell: 23:54

... And follow these commandments I give you for your good."

JP Foster: 23:59

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 24:00

That's the key. Freedom is trusting that God is good, and he's given us commandments for which we can thrive.

JP Foster: 24:07

Yes.

Sean McDowell: 24:08

That's the piece that's missed.

Scott Rae: 24:10

Let's be a little more specific about the freedom that we have in Christ. What are, what are some of the things that people are freed from-... By getting your identity straight?

JP Foster: 24:22

Yeah. Jesus says, "Whom the Son sets free is free indeed." And when I look at what I'm being freed from- in the book it mentions who we are in Christ, but then we're restored in Christ. So we're one... To give you an example, we're rescued. So, freedom, to be freed means that at some point I must have been bound. So example, I was once a slave to sin. I'm no longer a slave to sin, I'm free in Jesus. So God loves us, and he rescues us. So one of the terms we use is that God is a God who rescues us. Another term that we use is that we are, we are loved by God. This one blew me away. I preached the term a few weeks ago that you're loved by God, and it's a term that's used in scripture that God's hesed, right? It's used almost 250 times-... In the scripture, and it's described as God's unfailing love-... God's loving kindness. And David mentions it in the Psalms and says, "Your your mercy and grace, your loving kindness may it follow me all the days of my life."

Sean McDowell: 25:27

Amen.

JP Foster: 25:28

And it's described as something that chases, something that follows. And so when I'm looking at God's unfailing love, we had over 71 people in one service come to get saved, come to the altar.

Sean McDowell: 25:40

That's amazing.

JP Foster: 25:41

Just the term of how much God loves you, and it was literally preaching John 3-16."God so loved the world he gave, yet when we were still sinners, Christ died for you." And I think when it was expressed and explained that God loves you, Jesus doesn't say, "I'm a shepherd." He says, "I'm the good shepherd." No... You know this, no shepherd-... Is gonna leave 99 sheep to go after one. But the good shepherd, Jesus himself, will leave the 99 and go after the one. And I think the picture of God's love showed them that they are, they're loved by God. I'll give you another example. A student I have that received this book gave their life to Christ in 2023, was wrestling, struggling with just, you know, "I'm wrestling with being here and just I don't feel like I fit." So I met with the student and talked to the student. I said, "Well, what do you, what do you, what's going on?" She's like, "Well, I just don't feel like I fit here." Just kept saying, "I don't feel like, feel like I fit here." So I I asked the question, I said,"Well, what is it... Let me ask you a question. Is it, are you struggling with overcoming your past?" She said,"Yes.""Yeah, I'm overcoming, I'm struggling with my past." Because when we give our life to Christ, we come with baggage, but she didn't realize that she's actually loved by God. She was wrestling with all the things that I've done before I gave my life to Christ, is there really freedom? Is God really gonna... Does he really forgive me? Is he gonna hold these things against me? 1 John 1-9 says, "If we confess our sin, God is faithful and just-

Sean McDowell: 27:14

Amen

JP Foster: 27:14

... To forgive us of all unrighteousness. He'll cleanse us and forgive us of all unrighteousness." So scripture tells us that, but when I'm thinking about me, my mistakes-... My shortcomings, my faults-... The mistakes that I've made, I may, I may say, "Well, Lord, will you forgive me?" And the student was wrestling with, well, what she was really wrestling with the concept of what does God's love look like? And I think she got to the point where she had a picture of"Whoa, God, this is what God's love is? This is what God means when he says... God loves me that much, that he'll go after me? God loves me so much that he'll forgive me? God loves me so much that he's merciful and gracious." So I think that is, to me, is a, is a picture of how this book has done a great job in really helping people to know who they are and their identity in Christ.

Sean McDowell: 27:55

So 21 attributes of God. We won't walk through all of them, but I do think it's interesting and wise you start with created in Christ.

JP Foster: 28:03

Yes.

Sean McDowell: 28:03

'Cause that's the first thing we learn about God in the Bible is, "In the beginning, God created."

JP Foster: 28:07

Created.

Sean McDowell: 28:08

A lot of our identity, I think, is corrected if we understand what it means to be created in God's image and all that entails. But the first one, some of these are transformed, loved, known, beautiful, redeemed, reconciled. Like, these are truths-

JP Foster: 28:23

Yes

Sean McDowell: 28:23

... We wanna work into our lives that set us free. The first one you picked is transformed.

JP Foster: 28:28

Yes.

Sean McDowell: 28:29

I'm curious why you start there, and how specifically are our identities transformed in Christ?

JP Foster: 28:36

Yeah, we started there because of, Romans 12-1-2.

Sean McDowell: 28:40

Oh, that makes sense.

JP Foster: 28:41

Yeah. That's why we started there.

Sean McDowell: 28:43

Got it.

JP Foster: 28:43

We yeah, we started there-

Sean McDowell: 28:44

Okay

JP Foster: 28:44

... Romans 12-1-2, transformed by the renewing of your mind. The intro of the book starts explaining to us going from information to transformation.

Sean McDowell: 28:52

Mm-hmm.

JP Foster: 28:52

So we started with them, with the reader understanding the impact of being transformed, so that's why we started with transformed. Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 28:59

Interesting,'cause there's a lot of different ways I guess you could arrange attributes of Christ.

JP Foster: 29:04

Yes.

Sean McDowell: 29:04

So created first. Obviously, there's the fall, so we're restored. And then third, once we're restored, that gives us confidence, and then you built the seven attributes-

JP Foster: 29:15

Yeah

Sean McDowell: 29:15

... That fit under each one of those.

JP Foster: 29:16

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 29:16

Okay.

JP Foster: 29:17

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 29:17

That makes sense.

JP Foster: 29:18

Yeah. We almost started with loved. Loved was the first one. Initially, we, the first one we had was love, and we said, wait, the way the intro is flowing, understanding the impact of you're about to go through a process of having your mind, transformed, it was, it was important to start there.

Sean McDowell: 29:34

I'm actually glad you didn't start with loved, because I think that's... There's something cultural about where we

JP Foster: 29:39

Yeah

Sean McDowell: 29:39

... Immediately to God's love, which is powerful.

JP Foster: 29:42

Yeah

Sean McDowell: 29:42

But the Bible starts with creation.

JP Foster: 29:45

Creation.

Sean McDowell: 29:45

We are created-

JP Foster: 29:46

Created

Sean McDowell: 29:46

... By him-

JP Foster: 29:46

Yeah

Sean McDowell: 29:47

... Transformed because of sin, which is through God's love, like you said. But I don't know, personally, I'm glad you guys, you didn't start there. But...

Scott Rae: 29:54

[laughs] But the second chapter is on love.

Sean McDowell: 29:56

It is.

JP Foster: 29:56

It is.

Sean McDowell: 29:56

Chapter two.

Scott Rae: 29:57

Which is pretty central.

JP Foster: 29:58

Yes. [laughs]

Scott Rae: 29:58

So in comparison to the culture at large, what's the biblical understanding of love? And how do, how do people practically embrace that as part of our identity?

JP Foster: 30:11

Yeah. It's okay, it's okay if I read it straight from the book?

Sean McDowell: 30:13

You're the author, man. You're not gonna commit plagiarism reading yourself.

JP Foster: 30:17

No, because it's, the way-

Scott Rae: 30:18

[laughs]

JP Foster: 30:18

... The way it's-

Sean McDowell: 30:19

Just kidding

JP Foster: 30:19

... The way it's described, I wanna, I wanna read what-

Scott Rae: 30:22

[laughs] You're giving him grief for-

Sean McDowell: 30:23

I'm just giving him a hard time.

Scott Rae: 30:25

[laughs]

Sean McDowell: 30:27

Please read it. I do, I do the same thing

JP Foster: 30:30

And I wanna read this story if I, if I, if I can. Yeah, please. It says, "Live- living love today. I, John Paul, recently preached a sermon based on James 5-14,'Is anyone among you sick? Let them all call the elders of the church and pray, and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord.' I asked everyone to come down forward for prayer. As I was praying, it wasn't magical. I didn't pray expecting a miracle to happen at once, but I prayed for a man who had four cancer.""He was asking God to hold on to him. I prayed with him and his wife time and time again, and he came down. This man was crying." "He was overwhelmed. The church knew it. He was healed. He came back later, and he was healed." "He comes to me and says, 'I don't, I don't under-..." I His wife wrote me a letter. She sent flowers. She said,'Pastor, you're not gonna believe what happened. My husband had cancer. He's been healed. I can't believe that God would love me so much, that He would, He would heal me.' When I think about God's love, the word of God says that Jesus' loves drives out demons. Jesus' love ends all impacts that we'll experience and responding to God's love. Jesus loved so much he washed people's feet. But finding freedom in Jesus teaches us that God's love-... Is so incredible, that I mentioned this before, that He goes after you. God's love is unfailing. It never fails." "And God's love so much that He gave His only begotten Son that we would have everlasting life." So when I look at what it means, what it means to be loved, when we're going through things in our life, when we're overwhelmed- ... When we don't know what to do, God's love meets you wherever you are. And so I think when people are thinking about God's love, like the girl in, at, in my class, she said, "I don't know what to do. I've gone through so much. I feel like I'm overwhelmed. I feel like I've, God doesn't love me." And one of the things that Matt and I looked at was shame-free. Because when I look at my life and I look at God's love, there's sometimes a contradiction between me accepting God's love or God accepting me to be loved, and me wrestling with my shame. And I've noticed that 1 John 1-9 says that, "If I confess my sin, God is faithful and just to cleanse me and forgive me of all unrighteousness." Mm-hmm. So where is the wrestle? The wrestle that I experience is that I have to ask this question, will God do it for me? And my shame, the baggage that I'm carrying-... The guilt that I'm carrying, can God do something with the guilt and the shame? So I I say it like this. Sometimes, unfortunately, as believers, we see ourselves as our last mistake. And so I think the guilt that we carry sometimes when we're looking at God's love is that the guilt that I have is, "God, but you don't know what I just did. Do you understand what I just experienced? Do you understand how I missed it, how I fell short?" Sin has fallen short of the glory of God. Sin is missing the target. And so when I'm thinking about God's love, can God allow me to forgive me and be shame-free? And I believe the answer to that is yes. When I look at God's love, God doesn't just forgive me for what He does. 1 John 1-9 says, "He forgives me and He cleanses me." And so I think the struggle with people accepting God's love is not just, is God loving? The struggle that people have is, does God... Is He gonna remove my guilt and my shame? And I think that's where I've seen struggles with students, where I've seen struggles with church members, is the guilt. And I believe God's love does not just forgive you for what you did, but it also removes the dirt. It removes the filth. It removes the mud. It removes the guilt and the shame that comes with it. And that goes to even Jesus' first miracle, turning water into wine. When I look at how Jesus turns water into wine, in that moment, that couple was gonna be shamed. They had everyone in the- That's right. That's right ... They had everyone in the town.[clears throat] Everyone in that town is at the wedding, and he's ran out of wine. They've ran out of wine. And so there's now this moment of, "What are we gonna do? What are we gonna do?" And then Jesus turns the water into wine. People think, "Oh, you know, Jesus turned water into wine. That means we can have wine."[laughs] I'll let you debate that later. [laughs] But what He did was, in an honor and shame culture, Jesus uplifted them- ... In their moment of shame. To have the whole town at your wedding, to run out of wine was a shameful act, 'cause it's an honor and shame culture. What Jesus does is the the the, wine groom comes out and says,"You... Most people bring out the choice wine first, but you've brought out..." You know, and you know, when people drink enough, then they can't tell that the best wine is what it tastes like. Right. But he says, "But you've brought the best last," which means- ... that what Jesus did for them was better than what they had before. And I think when you look at Jesus removing the shame, that particular miracle shows us that Jesus didn't just make wine so they can continue partying. This couple was gonna be the shame of the whole town, the talk of the whole town. Everyone was there. They were gonna be shamed. And what Jesus did in doing this miracle is Jesus removed the shame that this couple would've started out with being married. And in an honor and shame culture, if you've been shamed, people can't associate with you. They have to disassociate with you. And so Jesus doesn't only, continue to restore them by making more wine, but now they don't go back into town saying,"Hey, this is the worst, this is the worst wedding we've ever been to. They ran out of wine." Now they're shamed. They're embarrassed. What does Jesus do? Now they're gonna go back into the town and talk about how,"I can't believe how good that wine was. The second wine, they could... I can't believe how good that wine was." So He didn't just- Give them more wine. He actually elevated them in their community. So I think Jesus removing their shame is an example of how what He does for us. I think His first miracle shows an aspect of what Jesus came to do for us.

Sean McDowell: 36:45

That, that's a powerful theological point. To go along with that, I was just asked two days ago at an event, I don't know why, somebody said, "Do you think Jesus was stripped completely naked on the cross?" And I said,"Yes." Here's why. When people first sinned, what happened? God gave them a clothing, killed an animal obviously, to cover them up, to cover up their shame.

JP Foster: 37:11

Yes.

Sean McDowell: 37:12

And then when Jesus goes to the cross-

JP Foster: 37:14

Fall on there

Sean McDowell: 37:14

... He completely uncovers himself-

JP Foster: 37:17

Yes

Sean McDowell: 37:17

... To take-

JP Foster: 37:18

It, yeah

Sean McDowell: 37:18

... All of our shame.

JP Foster: 37:20

Shame.

Sean McDowell: 37:21

When I first learned that, like, I got goosebumps just saying that.

JP Foster: 37:23

Goodness.

Sean McDowell: 37:24

It's so powerful and transformative. If I could ask one question about your earlier point about love, you were talking about God loves us so much, and that was a dramatic story. I love that you read about the man, stage four cancer-

JP Foster: 37:36

Yeah, we, yeah

Sean McDowell: 37:36

... Who was healed. I believe that 100%. We have a chapter on love. What would you say to the person who goes, "Pastor JP, my dad or my uncle also prayed, and God-"

JP Foster: 37:48

Yeah

Sean McDowell: 37:48

... Didn't heal him. Does God not love him?"

JP Foster: 37:51

Yeah

Sean McDowell: 37:51

How do you address that?

JP Foster: 37:52

Now, I'll address that in the chapter on hope. This is personal for me. So I I've lost two brothers, both to accidental death.

Sean McDowell: 38:01

Oh, my goodness.

JP Foster: 38:03

About three or five years apart. And I remember as a pastor going to visit-... Vis- going, doing a hospital visit for a member and their baby, their son. My younger brother-... Dies and their son lives.

Sean McDowell: 38:19

Ooh. Oh, man.

JP Foster: 38:22

Yeah. So I experienced that. I'm watching God-... Restore this young young boy when they're hopeless. They have no hope. They're literally hopeless. I'm watching my own personal life, and I'm doing a wedding.

Sean McDowell: 38:40

[exhales]

JP Foster: 38:41

I'm in the middle of doing a wedding. My phone is on silent. I have on an Apple Watch, and you know after you have it's on, it's on do not disturb.

Sean McDowell: 38:49

Yeah.

JP Foster: 38:49

If someone continues to call you after the third time, it goes through. I'm standing at the, I'm standing at the altar.

Sean McDowell: 38:57

Oh, no way.

JP Foster: 38:57

My watch is going off like fireworks.

Sean McDowell: 39:00

[laughs]

JP Foster: 39:00

And I'm in the middle of doing this wedding, and I can feel in my chest that the way that this watch is ringing-

Sean McDowell: 39:08

Something's wrong

JP Foster: 39:09

... Something

Sean McDowell: 39:10

Oh, man

JP Foster: 39:10

... Is terribly wrong. So I've, I do my part of the wedding, walk out the doors, and I'm, I see my mother called me, my sister called me.

Sean McDowell: 39:20

Wow.

JP Foster: 39:20

You already... Yeah, I already knew. And so, I'm at a wedding-... Doing a wedding, and then I find out my brother died. And and, I, the only reason why I made it is because of God's love and having hope in Him. Later on, my older brother died.

Sean McDowell: 39:39

Man.

JP Foster: 39:40

So I've lost my younger brother, my older brother. And the only reason why... And again, theologically I understand looking at the life of Job-... That, you know, the Bible says that he was a just man, righteous and blameless, who shunned evil. And if you read Job, you begin to see that he's persecuted. He goes through a trial or a test, however you wanna describe it. And so now Job is a righteous man, but his life, he, his, he loses his children. He loses his cattle, his wealth.

Sean McDowell: 40:09

He did.

JP Foster: 40:10

He loses, his health. His health is attacked. And I would argue when his wife said, "Curse God and die," he lost his wife.[laughs]

Sean McDowell: 40:19

[laughs] Never really thought about that, but I would probably concur.

JP Foster: 40:23

She said, "Job, do me a favor." "What?" "Curse God and die." Oh, I kinda think he may have lost her in that moment.

Sean McDowell: 40:29

[laughs]

JP Foster: 40:30

So here's this guy who's faithful, and you realize he's faithful, and he experiences trouble. And so for me personally, I can realize that God can love me, but it doesn't mean that I won't go through adversity in life. But it is His love that keeps me in those moments. And so for the person that's watching or listening and they've gone through hardship, and they've lost someone, they say, "Well why didn't God do it for me?" My personal, perspective on it is God's, God is sovereign. And He, and He knows best. And scripture says to be, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, and I've seen, I've seen both sides of it. I've been in the hospital, and I've prayed with people, and I've watched them pass. I've been in the hospital with people, I've prayed, and I've seen the Lord do something miraculous. I've been in the hospital with people, and the doctor says, "I don't know. Let's see what happens." And in those moments, I've seen people say,"I'm so happy" that they're not experiencing this type of pain anymore. I've visited parents who are in hospice, and they say-... "I'm, you know, this is unfortunate." Now, when you have young kids or a young brother and he dies, I just have to trust that God is sovereign and He knows best, and I don't understand it all. I'm not gonna pretend to know the thoughts of God. But I do know that-... The thing that has kept me is my faith being anchored in God in those moments because He's the one who's given me strength. He's the one who's kept my mind. He's the one that's given me strength because when you lose people you love, you know, and still have people depending on you in a classroom, in your church, I mean, yeah, you have to make sure you do what's right to be healthy mentally and to be healthy physically. But at the same time, it's God's strength and His love that's kept me every step of the way.

Sean McDowell: 42:13

Amen.

Scott Rae: 42:14

I've got one last question for you.

JP Foster: 42:16

Yes.

Scott Rae: 42:16

You've got 21 different attributes of our identity in Christ. Given the cultural moment that we're

JP Foster: 42:24

Yes

Scott Rae: 42:24

... Which one or two of these do you think is the most important to meet-... Where we are culturally today?

JP Foster: 42:31

Where we are culturally today, man, that's a tough one. We talked about transformed so much.

Scott Rae: 42:35

Mm-hmm.

JP Foster: 42:35

I would say hopeful.

Scott Rae: 42:37

Good.

JP Foster: 42:37

Yeah, I would say hopeful. I think we're in a, in a time where-

Sean McDowell: 42:41

Good

JP Foster: 42:41

... We need hope And understanding that there is, there is hope in God makes a massive difference. There was a period in my life when I was hopeless. I was wrestling with my purpose. I expected God to take my life in a certain direction, and it didn't happen. I just remember being angry.

Sean McDowell: 43:02

How old were you?

JP Foster: 43:03

I was going to college.

Sean McDowell: 43:04

Okay.

JP Foster: 43:05

Yeah. So I was, what? 18, 19, 20 years old.

Sean McDowell: 43:08

Mm-hmm.

JP Foster: 43:08

And I was angry. I expected God... I got injured playing sports. I wanted to be a neurosurgeon. My goal was always to be a doctor.

Sean McDowell: 43:15

Wow.

JP Foster: 43:15

And I wanted to go to medical school, and I literally saw God turn in the direction of my life, and I didn't know what to do. Part of me was afraid, because I didn't grow up in church, and I felt I saw the hand of God moving in ministry. And, I was sharing my testimony when I knew that Christ was real, Jesus is real, and I watched God use me to share my testimony, and about 30 to 40 people joined, just started coming to the church from me just sharing my testimony. Once I knew Christ was real, I said, "I have to tell everyone." I started telling my neighbors, my basketball, my teammates, everyone, and they started coming to church. And then the pastor said to me, he says, "I see, I can see that the Lord is gonna use you in an incredible way." And in my mind, I'm saying to myself, I'm just trying to get to know Jesus," 'cause I was young in my faith.

Sean McDowell: 43:58

Yeah.

JP Foster: 43:58

I said, "I'm just trying, I just wanna, I'm just trying to get to know Jesus." But I know that in that moment, that time and that season in my life, I was so on fire for God. Still at like... I reading his word, I was buying concordances, I was buying

Sean McDowell: 44:09

Love it

JP Foster: 44:09

... Commentaries, study Bibles, and I was in the, I was in that space of just-... I want, I just wanna learn as much as I can. And then I noticed that, the direction of my life was changing. So, long story short, a friend of mine prayed with me because I was wrestling with am I supposed to go to medical school? What am I supposed to do? He says, "Hey, man, I prayed and I don't know why this keep coming to my mind, but Biola."

Sean McDowell: 44:33

[laughs] Are you serious?

JP Foster: 44:35

[laughs] I

Sean McDowell: 44:35

[laughs]

JP Foster: 44:36

... Said, "What?" He said, "Yeah, the, Biola. Do you know where-"

Sean McDowell: 44:39

Yeah.

JP Foster: 44:39

"I went online and looked it up 'cause it kept coming to my mind, and you know, it's a, it's a school, they teach the Bible." I said,"What?" 'Cause they knew I was just on fire-

Sean McDowell: 44:47

Amazing

JP Foster: 44:47

... Reading the Bible, and like, "What's going on?" So I said, "Well, let me go." So I go to, Biola, do a tour. I'm on the tour, and listen to me. I'm on this tour, and I am I'm gonna go through this process of just seeing what's going on on this campus called Biola.

Sean McDowell: 45:04

Sure.

JP Foster: 45:04

But I'm actually, I'm actually hopeless. I'm in, I'm recovering from injuries playing basketball. I felt God turning the direction of my life. I knew that the schools I was gonna play at, I couldn't go to anymore, 'cause of my injury, because of my injuries. And so I was saying, "Lord, what are you doing?" So when the Biola thing came up in prayer, I said,"Well, let's go. Let's go. They teach the Bible. I'm on fire. I wanna know the Bible." So I go there. We begin the the tour. The tour guide's taking me, the counselor's taking me all throughout the campus. We get... Listen, I am hopeless, Scott. The campus director, the counselor takes me to a dorm named Hope.

Sean McDowell: 45:42

[laughs]

JP Foster: 45:44

And I am hopeless. I get to this dorm named Hope, and say this is the door right here where you are, Sean.

Sean McDowell: 45:51

Sure.

JP Foster: 45:51

And where you are, the men's dorm was on this side. I don't know if it's still like this now. The women's dorm was on this side, and I'm standing facing the door, and I'm watching students come and go, come and go, come and go. And the, and the guidance counselor and the tour guide is right where right where you are, and I'm watching students come in, and there's two, these two ladies, they walk in, and they're walking across this way, and one of them looks like this. Just gives me this, just this look from her eyes. I can't go to school here. I didn't say it out loud, but in my gut-... I said, "Oh, I can't go to school here.""I can't, I can't do this. I don't think, I don't think I'm gonna fit here." So then the lady walks, they leave, and then she comes back and she says, oh, it, literally with tears, and she says, "I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm so sorry." And in my mind, I'm like, "Yeah, I bet you are sorry." [laughs]

Sean McDowell: 46:41

[laughs]

JP Foster: 46:41

Staring at me like that. So she comes back and she says,"You're not, I don't, I know you don't know me. God told me to tell you that he wants you to be here. This is gonna be the foundation of your ministry. He's gonna use you to touch thousands of lives around the world."

Sean McDowell: 46:54

Oh my goodness.

JP Foster: 46:54

I said, "What? I'm hopeless."

Sean McDowell: 46:58

Huh.

JP Foster: 46:59

I'm in a dorm named Hope, and then the tour guide says, this has never happened before. Do you wanna just fill out an application or you wanna finish the tour?" [laughs]

Sean McDowell: 47:13

[laughs]

JP Foster: 47:13

I said, "Could we do both of them? Could we

Sean McDowell: 47:15

Amazing

JP Foster: 47:15

... Can we, can we do both?" And so we end up going. We finished the tour, and that was a moment for me where I was, I was full of hope, and I realized that God can navigate your steps. Since then, I got my degree in biblical and theological studies, studied Greek.

Sean McDowell: 47:28

Mm-hmm.

JP Foster: 47:28

Got my master's here at Talbot School of Theology. Did a little bit of studying at Moody Bible Institute in prophetic literature. Went to Oxford and studied a little bit. Came back and got my doctorate here at Talbot School of Theology.

Sean McDowell: 47:41

Amazing.

JP Foster: 47:42

And I'm just seeing how God has navigated my life. Just from me in a, in a space and position of just being hopeless. But when you're hopeless, you we have hope knowing that God can navigate our lives. He navigates our footsteps. And so I'm just grateful that at that time in my life, being so young and being open to hearing God's voice, even if it wasn't what I wanted for myself at the time. Now, I wouldn't trade this for anything in the world.

Sean McDowell: 48:08

That's awesome. Did you ever see her again? Like, run into her on campus?

JP Foster: 48:12

No, man. No, this is what-

Sean McDowell: 48:12

Never?

JP Foster: 48:12

... This is what, what's unfortunate. It... We could walk past each other, and I would never know. You know those moments where it's just-

Sean McDowell: 48:19

Yep

JP Foster: 48:19

... I was more in awe of what happened and what I, what... 'Cause I was hopeless-

Sean McDowell: 48:23

Okay. Interesting

JP Foster: 48:24

... Than, anything. But no, if she, if she's listening and she remembers, I would love to have a conversation with her, 'cause she literally was a part of the confirmation of me coming to Biola.

Sean McDowell: 48:33

So what year did you graduate Biola undergrad? What year was that?

JP Foster: 48:35

I came 2000, in the middle of transfer, so 2007.

Sean McDowell: 48:39

2007.

JP Foster: 48:39

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 48:39

Okay. Awesome. Good for you.

Scott Rae: 48:41

I'd say if you're listening Email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu

JP Foster: 48:44

Oh, please. No, please.

Sean McDowell: 48:47

That's awesome. I'd love to know what was going on in her mind and the reason for the look, but it worked out for the better-

JP Foster: 48:54

Yeah

Sean McDowell: 48:54

... Whatever was going on. You know, you said something earlier I wanna, I wanna land this plane on. When I asked you about God's love, you pointed towards God's sovereignty.

JP Foster: 49:03

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 49:03

And then you talked about God's hope. I think Scott was right to ask, are there certain attributes-

JP Foster: 49:08

Yeah

Sean McDowell: 49:08

... That are most timely right now?

JP Foster: 49:10

Yeah yeah.

Sean McDowell: 49:10

But in a sense, if we just focus on one attribute at the expense of the others, our theology gets out of filter.

JP Foster: 49:18

Yeah, that's true.

Sean McDowell: 49:18

Which is why we need to balance that we are saved-

JP Foster: 49:21

Yeah

Sean McDowell: 49:22

... And that God is holy and we are holy as a result, that we are shame-free, we are known. It's really, as a whole, we are adopted. And the last one, hopeful, blessed, alive, that I think when all of these sink home in our lives, it leads to the transformation you're talking about. So I thoroughly enjoyed it.

JP Foster: 49:39

Me too.

Sean McDowell: 49:39

Thanks again for the chance

JP Foster: 49:41

It was great stuff

Sean McDowell: 49:41

... Endorse it, Finding Freedom in Jesus. And again, I said it to my pastor, and I was like, "Hey, I don't know what you have planned for a sermon series, but if you wanna do 5 or 10 or 12 of these, I think it'd be awesome." So thanks for coming on.

JP Foster: 49:52

No thank you. Thank you. Thanks for having me and-

Sean McDowell: 49:54

Were you gonna read something?

JP Foster: 49:55

Yeah, I was.

Sean McDowell: 49:56

Do it, do it.

JP Foster: 49:56

I was, since we keep bringing up God's love.

Sean McDowell: 49:58

Do it.

JP Foster: 49:59

This is, page 36.

Sean McDowell: 50:01

Okay. [laughs]

JP Foster: 50:02

"Final biblical thoughts on love," and this happens in every chapter. We see... We say what the culture says on love, we say what the Old Testament teaches on love, what the New Testament teaches on love, then we always have a final thought, which-... Tries to come up with a concise way to describe it based on Old and New Testament-... As opposed to our culture."God is love, unfailing and unending love.""And that love overflows to us." Can I read that one more time?

Sean McDowell: 50:26

Do it, please.

JP Foster: 50:27

"God is love, unfailing and unending love, and that love overflows to us." And I think it's important to understand that God is love. His love is unending, unfailing, and His love overflows into our lives. And so that's just a concise way of describing, God's love and how it overflows into our life.

Sean McDowell: 50:49

I love it.

JP Foster: 50:50

Great stuff.

Sean McDowell: 50:50

Love is not just something God does.

JP Foster: 50:52

Yeah, who He is.

Sean McDowell: 50:53

It's who He is. God is holy.

JP Foster: 50:55

Yes, He is.

Sean McDowell: 50:55

God is just.

JP Foster: 50:56

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 50:56

God is righteous.

JP Foster: 50:58

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 50:59

Understanding that truth, I think, is what leads to transformation. So thanks for coming on.

JP Foster: 51:04

No, thank you for having me.

Scott Rae: 51:04

Great stuff. Great stuff.

Sean McDowell: 51:05

Thanks for, man, sharing some personal, really powerful stories. I'll definitely remember those and be sharing some of those with my kids. So we will have you back. In the meantime, folks listening, get a copy of Finding Freedom in Jesus. Personal study, classroom study, I imagine small group study, or a lot of different ways people are using this book.

JP Foster: 51:24

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 51:24

But it's well done. Good job to you and, Biola Talbot Professor Matt Williams.

JP Foster: 51:29

Yes, sir.

Sean McDowell: 51:29

Gotta give him a little shout-out as well.

JP Foster: 51:31

Oh, you have to, have to. Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 51:32

So.

JP Foster: 51:32

Dr. Matt Williams, my brother.

Sean McDowell: 51:34

This has been an episode of the Think Biblically podcast. We would love your questions sent to us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu. Give us a little review if you can. We would appreciate that. Preferably a five-star, but any review helps.

JP Foster: 51:50

[laughs]

Sean McDowell: 51:50

And, we have programs just like you talked about, the ones that Dr. Foster went through, and you teach now undergrad for us.

JP Foster: 51:56

Yeah.

Sean McDowell: 51:56

Old Testament, New Testament, theology classes, marriage, spiritual formation, apologetics, philosophy. Those of you listening, we would love to have you join us here at Talbot. And we'll see you Friday for the weekly cultural update.[upbeat music]