{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":0.1,"endTime":4.301,"body":"[upbeat music] What are the different gifts that we get from being"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":4.301,"endTime":5.83,"body":"immersed in God's word?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":6.459,"endTime":11.079,"body":"How do we develop a hunger for scripture? And why do we often see reading scripture"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":11.079,"endTime":13.099,"body":"as a burden rather than a blessing?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":13.779,"endTime":16.727,"body":"We'll tackle these questions and a whole lot more with our guest, our Talbot"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":16.727,"endTime":17.57,"body":"colleague in theology, Dr."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":17.82,"endTime":22.605,"body":"Uche Anozie, around his new book, \"The Goodness of God in the Gift of Scripture.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":22.605,"endTime":24.199,"body":"I'm your host, Scott Rae."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":24.44,"endTime":25.55,"body":"And I'm your co-host, Sean McDowell."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":25.64,"endTime":28.491,"body":"This is Think Biblically from Talbot School of Theology at Biola University."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":28.491,"endTime":30.629,"body":"Uche, thank you so much for being with us."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":30.94,"endTime":32.06,"body":"So appreciate your book."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":32.6,"endTime":35.939,"body":"Gave me a whole host of things that, frankly, I'd never thought about before."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":36.14,"endTime":36.78,"body":"Well, thanks for having me on."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":36.799,"endTime":37.899,"body":"So this is great stuff."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":38.42,"endTime":43.997,"body":"You know, there are a lot of books on the Bible and about, and a lot of books about"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":43.997,"endTime":48.0,"body":"reading the Bible well. What motivated you to write this particular approach-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":43.997,"endTime":48.0,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":48.009,"endTime":50.0,"body":"... That you, that you put out in your book?"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":50.56,"endTime":53.6,"body":"Yeah. I think my particular burden was the sense that,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":55.38,"endTime":59.049,"body":"I wondered what sort of kept people away from sort of regularly engaging the Bible."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":59.049,"endTime":62.229,"body":"So is it that they don't believe the Bible is true?"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":62.5,"endTime":63.78,"body":"I'm not, I wasn't convinced of that."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":64.329,"endTime":67.837,"body":"I started to get, become convinced that the, one of the barriers, especially among"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":67.837,"endTime":71.11,"body":"young people, was that they didn't, they weren't convinced that the Bible was good,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":71.11,"endTime":75.553,"body":"and that the Bible was for their good, and it was, so it was, that it was a gift"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":75.553,"endTime":79.528,"body":"given from God for their w- for their wellbeing. And so I wanted to sort of use"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":79.528,"endTime":83.97,"body":"this idea of the Bible as a gift, as a way of sort of reframing how we think about"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":83.97,"endTime":85.14,"body":"what the Bible is fundamentally."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":85.879,"endTime":87.939,"body":"So, yeah, that's a great response."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":88.04,"endTime":88.069,"body":"Go on. That's, that's really helpful."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":88.069,"endTime":91.339,"body":"As an apologist working with students, I would agree that they're"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":91.339,"endTime":95.499,"body":"not convinced it's good, and many also feel like it's just 2,000 years ago."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":95.499,"endTime":97.579,"body":"It doesn't really relate to my life."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":97.59,"endTime":98.099,"body":"Yeah. That's right. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":98.26,"endTime":101.102,"body":"But the goodness is at the root of it. We've seen apologetics shift"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":101.102,"endTime":103.459,"body":"from, is it true, to, like, is God good?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":101.102,"endTime":103.459,"body":"Uche Anizor: Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":103.54,"endTime":107.319,"body":"So calling scripture good- ... I think, is scratching where people are"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":107.319,"endTime":108.579,"body":"itching, so to speak."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":109.18,"endTime":112.989,"body":"Now, there's a lot of books about reading the Bible well that some of our colleagues"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":112.989,"endTime":114.76,"body":"[chuckles] at Talbot have written."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":112.989,"endTime":114.76,"body":"Uche Anizor: Absolutely."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":114.819,"endTime":115.799,"body":"How is this book unique?"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":116.099,"endTime":119.505,"body":"Yeah, so this is, this is not a book about hermeneutical strategies or"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":119.505,"endTime":122.387,"body":"exegetical sort of, approaches. It's really just a book about posture."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":122.387,"endTime":126.579,"body":"So what are the kinds of postures we need to adopt towards scripture in order to"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":126.579,"endTime":129.199,"body":"sort of read it faithfully and fruitfully as Christians?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":129.419,"endTime":133.319,"body":"All right. And you, and you would summarize the big idea as what?"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":133.759,"endTime":138.862,"body":"The big idea is scripture is God's gift through which he gives us a"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":138.862,"endTime":140.319,"body":"plethora of other gifts."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":140.569,"endTime":144.341,"body":"And so we approach the Bible as a... When we approach the Bible as a gift,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":144.341,"endTime":145.049,"body":"it'll sort of,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":146.24,"endTime":149.49,"body":"combat that sort of lethargy we have towards engaging with it."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":149.49,"endTime":153.281,"body":"Because when we're engaging with the Bible as a gift, we're, we're engaging with"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":153.281,"endTime":158.156,"body":"God's speaking voice to us, and a speaking voice that wants to sort of draw us into a"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":158.156,"endTime":159.24,"body":"meaningful relationship with him."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":159.439,"endTime":161.509,"body":"Why, why do we tend not to see it that way?"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":162.139,"endTime":164.754,"body":"Yeah. I think there are a number of, like, legitimate reasons."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":164.754,"endTime":169.069,"body":"Maybe, I don't wanna, maybe not legitimate reasons, but real-"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":164.754,"endTime":169.069,"body":"Scott Rae: understandable"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":169.069,"endTime":169.5,"body":"... Understandable reasons."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":169.069,"endTime":169.5,"body":"Scott Rae: Yeah."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":169.52,"endTime":172.763,"body":"Right? So, so the Bible, like Sean, you were saying, it feels irrelevant."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":172.763,"endTime":174.759,"body":"It's 2,000 years ago, or it's just boring."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":175.4,"endTime":176.56,"body":"Right? It's boring."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":177.479,"endTime":181.594,"body":"We have those experiences where we feel like, \"I'm not getting anything out of"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":181.594,"endTime":186.003,"body":"it.\" or, you know, the Bible is oftentimes presented as, you know, you should read"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":186.003,"endTime":189.235,"body":"your Bible. And, and oftentimes our hearts rebel against shoulds, right?"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":189.235,"endTime":193.938,"body":"And so there are a number of reasons like that that I think are understandable, not"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":193.938,"endTime":195.319,"body":"excusable, but understandable. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":195.939,"endTime":199.62,"body":"So Uche, you're a professor at Talbot School of Theology."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":195.939,"endTime":199.62,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":199.979,"endTime":203.81,"body":"So it's your job to teach the Bible and assume that it's good."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":199.979,"endTime":203.81,"body":"Uche Anizor: Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":203.86,"endTime":206.919,"body":"Now, you don't think that it's good because you're a professor."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":203.86,"endTime":206.919,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":207.0,"endTime":208.84,"body":"You're a professor because you think it's good."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":208.879,"endTime":209.229,"body":"I am, yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":209.5,"endTime":212.857,"body":"What's the backstory in your own life and your wrestling with"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":212.857,"endTime":216.52,"body":"scripture that brought you to the place that you think it's good?"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":216.96,"endTime":221.34,"body":"Yeah. So for me, you know, I became a Christian when I was, when I was"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":216.96,"endTime":221.34,"body":"18, and,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":222.18,"endTime":225.296,"body":"I didn't come from a Christian home. There was no one, no exposure to"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":225.296,"endTime":227.789,"body":"Christianity or anything like that. But when I became a Christian,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":228.9,"endTime":232.289,"body":"I was befriended by these guys in, at my church."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":232.289,"endTime":233.5,"body":"They were, they were, like,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":234.02,"endTime":236.62,"body":"six years older than me then. They're all guys from, like, the hood,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":236.62,"endTime":238.62,"body":"basically. They're all these hood guys, came from hard backgrounds."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":238.62,"endTime":239.819,"body":"None of them had a college-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":239.84,"endTime":240.919,"body":"What, what city or where is this?"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":240.979,"endTime":242.319,"body":"This is, this is back in Toronto-"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":240.979,"endTime":242.319,"body":"Sean McDowell: Yeah"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":242.329,"endTime":244.699,"body":"... Where I grew up. And none of them had sort of a,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":246.659,"endTime":248.397,"body":"an educational background. None of them went to Bible college."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":248.397,"endTime":249.439,"body":"None of them went to college."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":250.03,"endTime":255.24,"body":"But they loved the Bible. And, and so they would hang out, you know,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":250.03,"endTime":255.24,"body":"you know,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":255.78,"endTime":258.209,"body":"on weekends, have these sleepovers. I don't know what they were doing, but,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":258.209,"endTime":260.452,"body":"but they'd have these sleepovers where they're basically, like, debating the Bible."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":260.452,"endTime":262.134,"body":"They're talking about the Bible. They're studying the Bible."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":262.134,"endTime":264.938,"body":"And I looked at these guys as an 18-year-old, and they were, like, 24, and"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":264.938,"endTime":266.06,"body":"I'm like, \"These guys are, like,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":266.66,"endTime":269.889,"body":"cool guys, but they love the Bible.\""},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":266.66,"endTime":269.889,"body":"Scott Rae: Interesting."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":269.889,"endTime":273.238,"body":"\"And the Bible has changed these guys' lives.\" And so I said, \"Okay,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":273.238,"endTime":277.617,"body":"I wanna be exactly like them.\" And then, and then I saw that these guys had this"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":277.617,"endTime":280.45,"body":"kind of understanding that wasn't tied to their Bible college education."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":280.45,"endTime":284.314,"body":"It wasn't tied to a seminary education. It, it just came from them being steeped"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":284.314,"endTime":287.92,"body":"in the word. And so I loved that, and I wanted to emulate that,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":288.42,"endTime":289.6,"body":"in my own Christian life."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":290.72,"endTime":295.56,"body":"Now, you, the structure of the book is more, is more devotional than"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":290.72,"endTime":295.56,"body":"anything else. Uche Anizor: Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":295.579,"endTime":301.279,"body":"The different, the different gifts that God gives us through the gift"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":295.579,"endTime":301.279,"body":"of scripture. Uche Anizor: Yes."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":301.759,"endTime":305.483,"body":"So you start out with a, with one that I, you know, I'd, I'd never,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":305.483,"endTime":306.879,"body":"never really thought about very much,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":307.519,"endTime":309.699,"body":"and that is the gift of blessedness."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":307.519,"endTime":309.699,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":310.04,"endTime":314.098,"body":"And you make a really sharp contrast between the way the Bible"},{"speaker":"describes someone who is blessed- Uche Anizor","startTime":314.098,"endTime":315.86,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":316.04,"endTime":319.911,"body":"... And the way culture sees someone who is blessed. You know, we,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":319.911,"endTime":321.399,"body":"'cause non-believers all the time,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":322.079,"endTime":324.938,"body":"you know, that have a platform talk about, \"Oh, I'm, I'm blessed by this."},{"speaker":"I'm blessed by that.\" But- Uche Anizor","startTime":324.938,"endTime":326.329,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":326.36,"endTime":328.74,"body":"... And their concept of that's really different than what the Bible describes."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":328.779,"endTime":329.269,"body":"Yeah. Perhaps, yeah."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":328.779,"endTime":329.269,"body":"Scott Rae: So what,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":330.019,"endTime":334.899,"body":"what is the gift of blessedness, and how is it different than what the culture-"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":330.019,"endTime":334.899,"body":"Uche Anizor: Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":334.98,"endTime":336.22,"body":"... Takes for granted?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":334.98,"endTime":336.22,"body":"Uche Anizor: Yeah, thanks."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":336.8,"endTime":339.17,"body":"Yeah, I think the culture, when it, when it thinks about blessedness,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":339.75,"endTime":341.709,"body":"thinks about in, thinks about it in terms of achievements,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":342.6,"endTime":346.174,"body":"maybe awesome experiences, cool vacations, that kind of thing, or just stuff,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":346.174,"endTime":349.45,"body":"material things that they've, that they've received or maybe they've"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":349.45,"endTime":353.323,"body":"earned or whatnot. The Bible, the Bible has a conception of blessedness"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":353.323,"endTime":357.195,"body":"that's not entirely different than that. So the Bible sees blessedness as, you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":357.195,"endTime":360.471,"body":"know, us receiving gifts from other people, but especially from God."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":360.471,"endTime":364.939,"body":"So there is one concept in the, in the scriptures of blessedness as receiving gifts."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":365.399,"endTime":366.92,"body":"But there's another concept of blessedness,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":367.579,"endTime":370.731,"body":"and you find it in Psalms, like Psalm 1, where it says, \"Blessed is the man"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":370.731,"endTime":373.327,"body":"who,\" fill in the blank, or in the Beatitudes where it says, \"Blessed are"},{"speaker":"those who,\" fill in the blank. Scott Rae","startTime":373.327,"endTime":374.569,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":374.879,"endTime":378.54,"body":"And what, and what blessedness means there is sort of like"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":374.879,"endTime":378.54,"body":"true happiness."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":378.75,"endTime":382.467,"body":"And so then what is true happiness? True happiness is basically being in"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":382.467,"endTime":386.757,"body":"communion or in relationship with God. It's being known by God, and it's knowing God."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":386.757,"endTime":391.618,"body":"And so, and so when we read the Beatitudes and it says, \"Blessed are the poor in"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":391.618,"endTime":395.622,"body":"spirit, those who mourn, those who are pure in heart, peacemakers, those who are"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":395.622,"endTime":397.91,"body":"persecuted,\" clearly it doesn't mean situationally and circumstantially,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":398.569,"endTime":402.039,"body":"they're hashtag blessed. It m- it means that they're blessed because ultimately"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":402.039,"endTime":406.377,"body":"they're seen by God and known by God, and they know God. They're, they're, they're"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":406.377,"endTime":410.425,"body":"sharing in God's own-... Life and God's own sort of eternal blessedness and happiness."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":410.425,"endTime":415.051,"body":"And so it's, it's, it's a richer concept biblically. And so when we talk about the"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":415.051,"endTime":419.1,"body":"gift of blessedness, we're talking about that gift that God gives to His people"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":419.279,"endTime":420.089,"body":"Through, through His word"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor: ... Through His word. Scott Rae","startTime":420.1,"endTime":420.97,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor: ... Through His word. Scott Rae","startTime":420.1,"endTime":420.97,"body":"Uche Anizor: Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":420.98,"endTime":421.899,"body":"Now, I love, I love..."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":422.23,"endTime":426.211,"body":"'Cause you said, you said it at a point that, when people in the culture talk"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":426.211,"endTime":428.699,"body":"about being blessed, it's almost a form of self-flattery."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":429.959,"endTime":432.3,"body":"You know, sort of, \"Look, look at me. I'm so blessed-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":429.959,"endTime":432.3,"body":"Uche Anizor: Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":432.319,"endTime":433.579,"body":"... By what I've accomplished.\""},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":433.589,"endTime":433.759,"body":"Yeah, basically. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":433.8,"endTime":437.18,"body":"As opposed to, as opposed to by what God's given me-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":433.8,"endTime":437.18,"body":"Uche Anizor: Yeah Scott Rae: ... Graciously."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":437.56,"endTime":438.319,"body":"That's right. Yeah. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":437.56,"endTime":438.319,"body":"Scott Rae: All right."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":438.339,"endTime":440.703,"body":"And, and they may frame... You know, Christians do it, too, right?"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":440.703,"endTime":443.248,"body":"So Christians are gonna frame blessedness, you know, online. When they put it on"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":443.248,"endTime":445.793,"body":"their post, they're gonna talk about being blessed, and they're doing the same kind"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":445.793,"endTime":449.065,"body":"of thing, but they're gonna slap a sort of a Christian label on it or a \"Thank God"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":449.065,"endTime":451.61,"body":"for all the things that I've done.\" But at the end of the day,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":452.56,"endTime":454.839,"body":"the Bible's not completely contradicting that. The Bible does"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":454.839,"endTime":457.534,"body":"recognize that stuff, the stuff that we have, the accomplishments that we've, that"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":457.534,"endTime":461.058,"body":"we, that we've achieved, those are all given to us by God. That, that is to"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":461.058,"endTime":463.959,"body":"be blessed. But that's not the fullness of the concept of blessedness biblically."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":464.0,"endTime":465.06,"body":"I love that. That's helpful."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":465.62,"endTime":469.504,"body":"Uche, one of the lessons that my dad taught me, and he would say it in a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":469.504,"endTime":472.932,"body":"somewhat provocative way to make it sink in, is he'd say, you know, \"Nothing is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":472.932,"endTime":474.759,"body":"right or wrong because the Bible says it."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":475.6,"endTime":478.759,"body":"The Bible says it because it's right or wrong.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":475.6,"endTime":478.759,"body":"Uche Anizor: Okay."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":479.019,"endTime":482.879,"body":"The point was to get back to the source of morality is God's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":479.019,"endTime":482.879,"body":"character,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":483.54,"endTime":486.41,"body":"and we get our right and wrong com- from His commands-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":483.54,"endTime":486.41,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":486.62,"endTime":490.129,"body":"... And they're in the Bible, so we know what is right-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":486.62,"endTime":490.129,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":490.22,"endTime":493.954,"body":"... And wrong. And I think he's trying to avoid the sense"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":493.954,"endTime":495.839,"body":"of, like, legalism or bibliolatry-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":493.954,"endTime":495.839,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":495.85,"endTime":499.985,"body":"... Where people will worship the Bible itself or hold it up as"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":499.985,"endTime":500.939,"body":"the ultimate standard,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":501.56,"endTime":506.49,"body":"missing that Jesus said, \"You'll... You know, you, if you love me, you'll obey"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":501.56,"endTime":506.49,"body":"my commands.\" Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":506.49,"endTime":508.779,"body":"It's a means of loving God."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":506.49,"endTime":508.779,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":509.379,"endTime":511.759,"body":"You talk about the term bibliolatry."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":509.379,"endTime":511.759,"body":"Uche Anizor: Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":512.22,"endTime":513.529,"body":"Explain what you mean by that-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":512.22,"endTime":513.529,"body":"Uche Anizor: Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":513.529,"endTime":517.22,"body":"... And maybe how somebody might know if they've fallen into it."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":517.639,"endTime":521.32,"body":"Yeah. So I have a sort of troubled relationship with this idea of"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":517.639,"endTime":521.32,"body":"bibliolatry, right? Sean McDowell: Okay."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":521.36,"endTime":524.305,"body":"So, so oftentimes Christians, especially those in the"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":524.305,"endTime":527.84,"body":"sort of conservative evangelical world or maybe the fundamentalist types of"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":524.305,"endTime":527.84,"body":"Christians,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":528.73,"endTime":531.972,"body":"we have the charge leveled against us that we oftentimes just love"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":531.972,"endTime":535.678,"body":"the Bible too much. And, and so the reason why I have a troubled relationship with"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":535.678,"endTime":539.153,"body":"this idea of bibliolatry is I'm not convinced that our main problem is we love"},{"speaker":"the Bible too much. Sean McDowell","startTime":539.153,"endTime":540.168,"body":"[laughs]"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":540.2,"endTime":540.86,"body":"Right? That's not..."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":541.32,"endTime":543.492,"body":"You read the surveys. You know, like, a Lifeway conducted a survey."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":543.492,"endTime":544.759,"body":"I don't know how recently it was."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":545.039,"endTime":548.84,"body":"And it was saying something along the lines of, like, for evangelicals, they..."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":549.379,"endTime":551.519,"body":"50% of people engage with the Bible maybe once or twice a week."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":553.12,"endTime":557.566,"body":"50%, right? Once or twice a week. And so is it Bible love that's our"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":557.566,"endTime":561.734,"body":"problem? Probably not. But back to your question. So, so when I think about"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":561.734,"endTime":565.903,"body":"bibliolatry, what bibliolatry is according to sort of the accusers is it's a love for"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":565.903,"endTime":569.793,"body":"the, for the Bible that's divorced from God or divorced from sort of the"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":569.793,"endTime":573.684,"body":"relational dimension of relating to God. So it's, it's loving the Bible for itself"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":573.684,"endTime":577.574,"body":"and not seeing the Bible as sort of divine speech, God's self communication- ..."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":577.574,"endTime":579.519,"body":"A way of relating to God Himself."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":579.87,"endTime":583.403,"body":"And so it's sort of putting the Bible on the level of, like, you know, they'll say,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":583.403,"endTime":585.769,"body":"\"Is the Bible the fourth person of the, of the Godhead?\""},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":583.403,"endTime":585.769,"body":"Sean McDowell: Yeah. [laughs]"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":585.809,"endTime":588.82,"body":"Obviously not, right? But, but it's that kind of idea that,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":588.82,"endTime":592.651,"body":"that we might elevate the Bible in distinction from or separate from a"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":592.651,"endTime":594.799,"body":"relation, relationship with God Himself. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":594.82,"endTime":597.4,"body":"And how might somebody know if they've committed that?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":597.4,"endTime":600.029,"body":"And you have full permission to step on toes."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":597.4,"endTime":600.029,"body":"Uche Anizor: Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":600.059,"endTime":603.47,"body":"I mean, this is the Bible Institute of LA-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":600.059,"endTime":603.47,"body":"Uche Anizor: Yeah, yes"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":603.47,"endTime":604.779,"body":"... That Talbot is housed in."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":603.47,"endTime":604.779,"body":"Uche Anizor: Indeed."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":604.82,"endTime":608.559,"body":"So convict us. Push back in ways maybe we do this in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":604.82,"endTime":608.559,"body":"unhealthy manner."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":608.659,"endTime":613.008,"body":"Yeah. And I don't know. So, so I think if we, if we relate to"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":613.008,"endTime":616.59,"body":"the Bible in such a way where, love of God and love of neighbor,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":617.279,"endTime":620.307,"body":"are not a fruit of our reading of the Bible or our interpretation of the Bible"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":620.307,"endTime":623.334,"body":"or our use of the Bible, then there's probably a problem in the way that"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":623.334,"endTime":624.279,"body":"we're engaged in the Bible."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":624.559,"endTime":625.6,"body":"The Bible's not the problem."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":625.86,"endTime":629.785,"body":"We're the problem. And so we may elevate the Bible in those sort of harsh"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":629.785,"endTime":633.22,"body":"conversations. We may elevate the Bible for the Bible as the highest authority and"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":633.22,"endTime":636.901,"body":"highest standard, but we're using the Bible in a way that's contrary to the"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":636.901,"endTime":640.336,"body":"Bible's own intention, right? So could that be a form of bi- of bibliolatry?"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":640.336,"endTime":644.752,"body":"I think that might be a way of gauging, like gauging, am I engaging the Bible in,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":644.752,"endTime":648.923,"body":"in a way that is actually loving God and loving God's Word in the way that"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":648.923,"endTime":653.34,"body":"God's Word is meant to be loved, which is in connection with Him and loving our"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":648.923,"endTime":653.34,"body":"neighbor."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":653.62,"endTime":654.96,"body":"Something along those lines, I might say."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":653.62,"endTime":654.96,"body":"Sean McDowell: Okay. Uche Anizor: Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell: Yeah. Fair enough. Uche Anizor","startTime":655.019,"endTime":655.59,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":655.6,"endTime":658.463,"body":"By the way, I know you're gonna jump in here, Scott, but I was..."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":658.463,"endTime":660.1,"body":"I enjoy getting up in the morning,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":660.919,"endTime":664.784,"body":"reading the Bible before life gets busy and hectic and crazy. There's a peace."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":664.784,"endTime":667.269,"body":"There's a focus there. And I'm up there reading,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":667.96,"endTime":672.169,"body":"and my wife came in recently, asked me to do something. I'm like, \"I'm reading the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":667.96,"endTime":672.169,"body":"Bible.\" Uche Anizor: [laughs]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":672.19,"endTime":675.22,"body":"\"My gosh.\" And then my next thought was like, \"Wait a minute.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":672.19,"endTime":675.22,"body":"Uche Anizor: Right."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":675.259,"endTime":676.309,"body":"\"Why am I reading this-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":675.259,"endTime":676.309,"body":"Uche Anizor: Right, right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":676.309,"endTime":677.528,"body":"... So I can better love people?\""},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":677.679,"endTime":677.879,"body":"Amen. That's right."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":677.889,"endTime":679.409,"body":"And somebody's interrupting."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":677.889,"endTime":679.409,"body":"Uche Anizor: That's right."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":679.45,"endTime":681.94,"body":"Like, I completely lost my [laughs] focus here."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":681.98,"endTime":682.57,"body":"Yeah, that's right. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":682.57,"endTime":684.599,"body":"These are the kinds of things that can happen."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":684.62,"endTime":686.299,"body":"That's a great example."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":684.62,"endTime":686.299,"body":"Sean McDowell: So. Uche Anizor: Yeah. Brilliant."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":687.379,"endTime":689.49,"body":"Touché. Appreciate that vulnerability."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":687.379,"endTime":689.49,"body":"Uche Anizor: Yeah. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":689.559,"endTime":690.799,"body":"Oh, man. [laughs]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":691.0,"endTime":693.159,"body":"Yeah. And there are more to come, I suspect."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":693.58,"endTime":694.1,"body":"Yes. I hope so."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":694.179,"endTime":698.784,"body":"So yeah. Now, you know, one of the, one of the various gifts that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":698.784,"endTime":701.24,"body":"God gives us through the gift of Scripture,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":702.12,"endTime":706.039,"body":"I th- I think I may have had backward- ... Until I read the book."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":706.6,"endTime":708.57,"body":"And then you describe the gift of purity,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":709.539,"endTime":714.0,"body":"and I think I've typically thought of purity as a gift that we give back to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":709.539,"endTime":714.0,"body":"God- Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":714.559,"endTime":718.58,"body":"... And to others rather than a gift that He gives to us."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":714.559,"endTime":718.58,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":718.6,"endTime":722.61,"body":"So how does... Help, help us, you know, make sense of that."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":718.6,"endTime":722.61,"body":"How is- Uche Anizor: Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":722.61,"endTime":725.6,"body":"... Purity a gift to us-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":722.61,"endTime":725.6,"body":"Uche Anizor: Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":726.22,"endTime":726.82,"body":"... From God?"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":727.019,"endTime":730.789,"body":"Yeah. That's good. So I think purity, it is something that"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":730.789,"endTime":732.36,"body":"we give back to God."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":732.639,"endTime":734.658,"body":"We're, we're called to and we're obligated to live pure lives."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":734.899,"endTime":736.589,"body":"So I'm not gonna... So I'm not completely wrong on that."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":736.589,"endTime":738.11,"body":"You're not nuts. You're not entirely nuts."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":736.589,"endTime":738.11,"body":"No."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":738.48,"endTime":738.49,"body":"I appreciate that. [laughs]"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":738.519,"endTime":739.399,"body":"So, so we are, we-"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":738.519,"endTime":739.399,"body":"Scott Rae: That's helpful"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":739.44,"endTime":741.78,"body":"... We are responsible to give k- purity back to God and present"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":741.78,"endTime":743.58,"body":"that, present our bodies to God in holy ways."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":744.279,"endTime":748.071,"body":"However, because God is the sanctifier, right? So, so the Scriptures are gonna talk about"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":748.071,"endTime":750.599,"body":"the sanctifying work of the Spirit in 1 Peter."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":751.07,"endTime":754.985,"body":"And so God is the one and the only one who can make us like God, right?"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":754.985,"endTime":759.131,"body":"And so the purity must be a gift, a gift that God sort of empowers and"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":759.131,"endTime":762.125,"body":"enables in the Christian life. So in that sense-In a very basic sense,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":762.125,"endTime":763.967,"body":"it's a gift. But even more than that,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":764.668,"endTime":769.604,"body":"purity is also sort of a gateway to other gifts, right? So when you read back to the"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":769.604,"endTime":772.895,"body":"Beatitudes, Jesus is gonna say, \"Blessed are the pure in heart.\" Why?"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":772.895,"endTime":777.283,"body":"\"For they will see God.\" And so there's a result that comes from living s-"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":777.283,"endTime":779.477,"body":"from having a pure heart, right?"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":779.748,"endTime":781.857,"body":"The pure in heart will see God, and so,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":782.927,"endTime":787.48,"body":"purity is a gift in that sense, in that it ju- it just opens the doorways"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":787.48,"endTime":793.248,"body":"to greater blessing and even the ultimate blessing, which is the vision of God."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":787.48,"endTime":793.248,"body":"Yeah. Scott Rae: That's great."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":793.868,"endTime":799.347,"body":"The most common command in the Bible is to not fear, to not be afraid."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":793.868,"endTime":799.347,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":799.447,"endTime":802.451,"body":"So two books I've studied recently, Deuteronomy, and it's just full"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":802.451,"endTime":804.988,"body":"of, \"Do not fear the giants in the land.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":802.451,"endTime":804.988,"body":"Uche Anizor: Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell: \"Don't fear the- Uche Anizor","startTime":804.998,"endTime":805.927,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":805.937,"endTime":809.161,"body":"... Amalekites.\" And then I've been reading Acts, and it's like a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":809.161,"endTime":814.537,"body":"drumbeat in Acts. \"Do not fear the authorities. Do not fear what they can do to you.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":809.161,"endTime":814.537,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":814.567,"endTime":817.532,"body":"You have a little bit of a different take. You maintain that the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":817.532,"endTime":819.427,"body":"Bible gives us the gift of fear."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":817.532,"endTime":819.427,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":820.148,"endTime":820.807,"body":"Tell us what you mean."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":821.168,"endTime":823.665,"body":"Yeah, so we're... You know, when we become Christians, you"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":823.665,"endTime":827.662,"body":"know, we're, we're f- we're freed from the fear of what? Fear of death, fear of"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":827.662,"endTime":830.91,"body":"condemnation, the fear of ali-alienation, but we're never actually ever off the hook"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":830.91,"endTime":834.906,"body":"from fearing the Lord, right? So the f- the fear of the Lord is a basic"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":834.906,"endTime":838.403,"body":"sort of requirement of any devoted God follower, especially a Ch- a Christian, right?"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":838.403,"endTime":843.399,"body":"So the fear of the Lord is a gift in the sense that what it means to fear the"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":843.399,"endTime":845.648,"body":"Lord is to, is to love God. It's to,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":846.408,"endTime":850.901,"body":"to revere Him. It's to have a sorrow for our sins. And, and these kinds of things"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":850.901,"endTime":854.866,"body":"are only most true in the lives of those who are followers of"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":854.866,"endTime":856.187,"body":"Christ, who know God."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":856.597,"endTime":861.466,"body":"And so fear is a gift in the sense that God is the only one who can sort of"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":861.466,"endTime":866.078,"body":"engender fear in us, in that God is the one who sort of draws us to Himself and,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":866.078,"endTime":869.922,"body":"and breathes new life into us. And as that new life is breathed into us,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":869.922,"endTime":873.765,"body":"we begin to fear, to fear the Lord. But similarly to the purity question,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":873.765,"endTime":876.327,"body":"fear is also, again, a gateway to other blessings, right?"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":876.668,"endTime":881.053,"body":"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. The fear of the Lord is the"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":881.053,"endTime":881.827,"body":"beginning of knowledge."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":882.067,"endTime":886.356,"body":"The Lord draws near to those who fear Him, and you read many kinds of"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":886.356,"endTime":890.139,"body":"things like that in Scripture. So to, for God to grant us the gift of"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":890.139,"endTime":894.427,"body":"fear means He's trying to grant us a whole plethora of other gifts as we fear Him."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":894.687,"endTime":897.412,"body":"Okay, so articulate again what you mean by the fear of God, 'cause"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":897.412,"endTime":899.927,"body":"when people ask me, I'll often say it's a sense of awe."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":900.187,"endTime":905.138,"body":"It's a sense of reverence. It's a sense of my place in the universe"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":905.138,"endTime":908.347,"body":"as the created in comparison with the Creator."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":905.138,"endTime":908.347,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":908.988,"endTime":909.668,"body":"Do you agree with that?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":910.087,"endTime":913.008,"body":"Tell me how you would expand that or add that or even tweak that understanding of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":913.008,"endTime":913.738,"body":"the fear of God."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":913.738,"endTime":916.853,"body":"No, I think that's, I think that's basically correct, but"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":916.853,"endTime":921.008,"body":"I'd wanna add the dimension of the fear of God includes love, right?"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":921.256,"endTime":926.842,"body":"And so we fear God not as distant and as judge. We fear God as Father. And so when"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":926.842,"endTime":931.869,"body":"we're thinking about the fear of God, how do I fear a father? The, the fear is not"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":931.869,"endTime":936.058,"body":"dread or just awe. It's also love. And so then obedience in the context of"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":936.058,"endTime":940.248,"body":"that kind of fear is I want to obey Him because I wanna please Him."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":940.668,"endTime":943.865,"body":"I don't wanna disappoint Him. That, you know, that kind of frame."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":943.865,"endTime":947.749,"body":"It's more of a relational frame than a sort of, like, I'm, I'm worried, or I"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":947.749,"endTime":951.403,"body":"feel, I feel dread, or I, or I just feel awe, that kind of thing."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":951.403,"endTime":953.687,"body":"And so it's not completely different from what you're saying."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":954.008,"endTime":958.352,"body":"But I'd want to add the dimension, like the very relational, filial sort of we're,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":958.352,"endTime":963.587,"body":"we're sons of a father, and so we fear God as Father, as a loving, benevolent father."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":958.352,"endTime":963.587,"body":"Sean McDowell: Love it."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":963.607,"endTime":963.927,"body":"That's different."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":963.967,"endTime":967.467,"body":"I wonder if that's, that has something to do with what, Paul describes"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":967.467,"endTime":971.337,"body":"in Galatians about the term a- we refer to God as Abba."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":967.467,"endTime":971.337,"body":"Uche Anizor: Abba, yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":971.548,"endTime":973.548,"body":"Fa... It's that sort of tender-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":971.548,"endTime":973.548,"body":"Uche Anizor: Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":973.748,"endTime":976.096,"body":"... But it, but it's, it's out of l- of love for God-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":973.748,"endTime":976.096,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":976.096,"endTime":977.168,"body":"... Not be- not being afraid."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":977.207,"endTime":977.967,"body":"That's exactly right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":978.927,"endTime":982.452,"body":"And so that, I think initially, I think if we misunderstand the fear of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":982.452,"endTime":983.207,"body":"God, we don't..."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":983.847,"endTime":986.876,"body":"That, that Abba Father creates a lot of tension-"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":986.947,"endTime":987.508,"body":"Yeah, that's right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":987.768,"endTime":990.388,"body":"... For people, and I don't think that's the way it's intended."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":990.408,"endTime":991.268,"body":"That's exactly right, yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":992.347,"endTime":995.567,"body":"Now you also talk about the gift of salvation."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":992.347,"endTime":995.567,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":995.988,"endTime":997.488,"body":"And that, in my view, that,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":998.197,"endTime":1001.734,"body":"that I would [chuckles] say as J- as J.P. Morgan would say, \"Uche, that's a profound"},{"speaker":"grasp of the obvious-\" Uche Anizor","startTime":1001.734,"endTime":1004.018,"body":"Yeah. [laughs]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1004.037,"endTime":1004.947,"body":"\"... On that.\" Um-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1004.037,"endTime":1004.947,"body":"Uche Anizor: That's fair"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1005.107,"endTime":1007.658,"body":"... But there's more to it than that."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1005.107,"endTime":1007.658,"body":"Uche Anizor: Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1007.707,"endTime":1012.087,"body":"The, the concept of salvation is different-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1007.707,"endTime":1012.087,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm Scott Rae: ..."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1012.368,"endTime":1016.614,"body":"In the scriptures that you des- in, that you describe than I think the way we"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1016.614,"endTime":1019.268,"body":"commonly take it as sort of this individual fire insurance-"},{"speaker":"... That gives us eternal life. Uche Anizor","startTime":1019.868,"endTime":1021.557,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1021.567,"endTime":1023.408,"body":"There's more to it than that."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1021.567,"endTime":1023.408,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1023.427,"endTime":1027.428,"body":"What, what else is there in this sort of expanded concept?"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1027.488,"endTime":1030.188,"body":"Yeah, so what I try to do in the book is I try to sort of,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1030.807,"endTime":1034.708,"body":"draw attention to how in Psalm 119, which is the focus of the book, how,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1035.248,"endTime":1038.087,"body":"the psalmist is always praying for salvation,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1038.948,"endTime":1042.594,"body":"earthly deliverance. \"Lord, I s- I stay close to your word. I keep your word,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1042.594,"endTime":1045.998,"body":"therefore deliver me.\" That, that kind of language. And so I's, so I'm"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1045.998,"endTime":1049.887,"body":"trying to wrestle with what do we make of these kinds of, pleas for earthly salvation?"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1050.548,"endTime":1052.407,"body":"'Cause they're not, they're not only found in the Old Testament."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1052.407,"endTime":1053.337,"body":"So in the New Testament when-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1053.337,"endTime":1054.627,"body":"So d- so deliverance from-"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1054.667,"endTime":1055.968,"body":"Deliverance from our enemies"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1055.978,"endTime":1056.538,"body":"... From a, from an enemy"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1056.748,"endTime":1058.759,"body":"... From, like, real-life hardship and real-life"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1058.759,"endTime":1062.028,"body":"circumstances- ... Like salvation in that sense. What... Does God deliver us from"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1062.028,"endTime":1066.553,"body":"those, and how does staying close to God's word connect us to that? So in the New"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1066.553,"endTime":1067.307,"body":"Testament, you have,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1068.228,"endTime":1071.308,"body":"John the Baptist's dad, Zechariah. He's, he's giving this sort of praise to"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1071.308,"endTime":1075.337,"body":"God, and he talks about the Messiah as the one who's gonna deliver us from our enemies."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1075.337,"endTime":1078.417,"body":"Now, we can read that as simply saying he's gonna free us from,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1079.508,"endTime":1082.607,"body":"Satan or free us from the power of sin, and I think all those things are true."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1083.048,"endTime":1086.138,"body":"But I think he has an earthly frame of reference in mind when he's talking"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1086.138,"endTime":1089.047,"body":"about the Messiah will deliver us from our enemies. And so I want to think through,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1089.047,"endTime":1090.137,"body":"okay, how do we... How does,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1090.647,"endTime":1094.478,"body":"how does God respond to us with respect to these earthly sort of deliverances?"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1095.127,"endTime":1101.647,"body":"And so in sort of, in line with Psalm 119, I basically concluded that,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1102.587,"endTime":1107.014,"body":"for the, for the person who stays close to God's word, while it's not guaranteed that"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1107.014,"endTime":1109.781,"body":"God's gonna deliver them, obviously Christians die, Christians are persecuted,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1109.781,"endTime":1110.887,"body":"things along those lines,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1111.428,"endTime":1116.11,"body":"they can have a greater sense of confidence that God may and will deliver,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1116.11,"endTime":1118.117,"body":"even though He may not always."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1118.387,"endTime":1122.887,"body":"But they can have 100% confidence that within the creation itself-In the new"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1122.887,"endTime":1128.079,"body":"creation, not in another sphere, but in the new creation, God, in real history,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1128.079,"endTime":1132.579,"body":"will deliver them from all their earthly, all their earthly troubles,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1132.579,"endTime":1136.733,"body":"their enemies, their hardships, their health issues, all those kinds of"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1136.733,"endTime":1139.155,"body":"things, that they will receive earthly salvation."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1139.435,"endTime":1142.449,"body":"And so I'm trying to broaden how we think about salvation."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1142.449,"endTime":1146.718,"body":"Yes, it's primarily from sin and death and those kinds of things, but it r- but He"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1146.718,"endTime":1150.233,"body":"really does deliver us from all the earthly enemies, all the, all these other"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1150.233,"endTime":1152.996,"body":"sort of like seemingly mundane or less spiritual kinds of things."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1153.016,"endTime":1155.945,"body":"And, and in, and in the instances where He doesn't-"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1156.435,"endTime":1156.685,"body":"Where, where He doesn't"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1156.685,"endTime":1160.935,"body":"... Or at least doesn't on the schedule that we would like-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1156.685,"endTime":1160.935,"body":"Uche Anizor: Yeah. Scott Rae: Um-"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1161.155,"endTime":1162.266,"body":"We, we trust that He will,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1162.955,"endTime":1168.155,"body":"and we trust, and we have to trust that He's got better designs for not delivering us."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1168.455,"endTime":1172.756,"body":"But we don't wanna, we don't wanna, we don't wanna just l- rest at,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1173.276,"endTime":1176.695,"body":"well, God n- is never gonna deliver us, you know, and He, and He treats us the"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1176.695,"endTime":1180.114,"body":"same way He t- He treats those who don't know Him. I don't think that's, that"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1180.114,"endTime":1182.527,"body":"that's the way that the scriptures understand it. They understand it as,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1182.527,"endTime":1185.946,"body":"well, God does grace and favor those who know Him, and those who know Him"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1185.946,"endTime":1187.556,"body":"are those who stick close to His word."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1187.915,"endTime":1190.855,"body":"Yeah, I've heard, I've heard N.T. Wright suggest that, one of the only"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1190.855,"endTime":1193.115,"body":"answers to the problem of evil is the cross- ..."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1193.736,"endTime":1197.655,"body":"Actually, where God promises to, the, it's the promissory note-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1193.736,"endTime":1197.655,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1197.776,"endTime":1200.915,"body":"... Of His deliverance as you describe in-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1197.776,"endTime":1200.915,"body":"Uche Anizor: Ultimate deliverance"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1200.935,"endTime":1202.056,"body":"... In the new creation."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1200.935,"endTime":1202.056,"body":"Uche Anizor: Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1202.096,"endTime":1206.336,"body":"And so in a very real sense, God has delivered us-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1202.096,"endTime":1206.336,"body":"Uche Anizor: Yeah, yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1206.915,"endTime":1210.556,"body":"... Even though it may not, it may not be realized- ..."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1211.076,"endTime":1213.135,"body":"In maybe this side of eternity."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1213.175,"endTime":1216.127,"body":"Yeah. Yeah, and again, those deliverances are really material,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1216.127,"endTime":1219.668,"body":"earthly deliverances. Like, He really is gonna deliver us from actual enemies,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1219.668,"endTime":1224.685,"body":"those who oppose Him, those who made our h- those who made our heart, our lives"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1219.668,"endTime":1224.685,"body":"difficult."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1224.996,"endTime":1230.276,"body":"We actually do get delivered from that in history on this earth. It's just at the"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1224.996,"endTime":1230.276,"body":"new creation."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae: Yeah, and I think- Uche Anizor","startTime":1230.496,"endTime":1231.925,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1231.925,"endTime":1232.326,"body":"... It's, it,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1232.875,"endTime":1236.858,"body":"in the Old Testament, too, that version, that form of salvation, I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1236.858,"endTime":1238.185,"body":"think, was the primary one."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1238.195,"endTime":1239.615,"body":"It's pervasive, yeah. Yeah, it is."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1239.715,"endTime":1243.205,"body":"And, and the i- the notion that we are spiritually blessed-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1239.715,"endTime":1243.205,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1243.935,"endTime":1248.526,"body":"... And spiritually delivered from those things was a takeoff on that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1243.935,"endTime":1248.526,"body":"more concrete- Uche Anizor: I agree"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae: ... More tangible- Uche Anizor","startTime":1248.526,"endTime":1249.556,"body":"I agree"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1249.776,"endTime":1253.435,"body":"... Way that everybody, I mean, everybody who read the Old Testament was"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1249.776,"endTime":1253.435,"body":"familiar- Uche Anizor: Precisely"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1253.445,"endTime":1255.435,"body":"... With that concept of-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1253.445,"endTime":1255.435,"body":"Uche Anizor: Precisely Scott Rae: ... Salvation."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1255.526,"endTime":1255.526,"body":"Precisely."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1255.526,"endTime":1259.33,"body":"And so when it got applied in the New Testament to the cross and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1259.33,"endTime":1261.935,"body":"resurrection of Jesus and to our own spiritual life-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1259.33,"endTime":1261.935,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1261.955,"endTime":1264.925,"body":"... It had a really deep, rich meaning for them."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1264.955,"endTime":1267.282,"body":"I think that's, I think that's right, and I think that's why"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1267.282,"endTime":1270.191,"body":"people misunderstood Jesus to a, to a large degree, right? 'Cause they had a"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1270.191,"endTime":1272.518,"body":"particular earthly frame of reference as they thought about deliverance, and Jesus"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1272.518,"endTime":1275.038,"body":"was sort of expanding that and saying, \"Wait, wait. There, there's a"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1275.038,"endTime":1276.395,"body":"greater deliverance that I'm gonna give."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1276.976,"endTime":1280.304,"body":"I'm not negating that I'm gonna provide those other deliverances, but I'm, I'm"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1280.304,"endTime":1282.096,"body":"providing an even greater deliverance than that.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1282.185,"endTime":1286.294,"body":"You're talking about the goodness of God in scripture, and it seems"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1286.294,"endTime":1290.059,"body":"your methodology is you've identified certain beliefs that we have as"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1290.059,"endTime":1294.51,"body":"evangelicals and just slightly reframing them away from how our secular culture or"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1294.51,"endTime":1298.276,"body":"just pop evangelical culture [chuckles] maybe doesn't fully understand this concept."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1299.016,"endTime":1303.605,"body":"I was super interested in this concept of freedom- ... 'cause I've written a lot on this."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1299.016,"endTime":1303.605,"body":"Uche Anizor: Uh-huh."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1304.026,"endTime":1308.291,"body":"And I've actually said I think one of the biggest lies today that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1308.291,"endTime":1313.256,"body":"this younger generation believes are lies about what it means to be free."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1308.291,"endTime":1313.256,"body":"Uche Anizor: Interesting, yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1313.355,"endTime":1315.985,"body":"And of course, there's nothing new about that. Back in the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1315.985,"endTime":1318.685,"body":"garden, Satan's temptation is like, \"God's keeping you from the fun-\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1315.985,"endTime":1318.685,"body":"Uche Anizor: Uh-huh."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1318.685,"endTime":1319.816,"body":"\"... Not setting you free.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1318.685,"endTime":1319.816,"body":"Uche Anizor: Uh-huh."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1320.476,"endTime":1324.774,"body":"So the Bible gives us freedom. \"You shall know the truth, and the truth"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1324.774,"endTime":1326.615,"body":"shall set you free.\" How do..."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1327.195,"endTime":1328.796,"body":"What do you understand is biblical freedom,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1329.336,"endTime":1333.256,"body":"and how do you think it's different from a common cultural understanding of freedom?"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1333.655,"endTime":1336.705,"body":"Yeah. Yeah, so, you know, I'm Canadian, so I-"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1333.655,"endTime":1336.705,"body":"Sean McDowell: [laughs]"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1336.705,"endTime":1340.786,"body":"... Find myself fascinated by, American understandings of"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1336.705,"endTime":1340.786,"body":"freedom."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1340.996,"endTime":1342.355,"body":"Not, I'm not saying that in a pejorative sense."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1342.556,"endTime":1345.562,"body":"I really think American concepts of liberty and freedom are very"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1345.562,"endTime":1346.565,"body":"fascinating. But in sort of-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1346.645,"endTime":1347.605,"body":"It's too late. I'm offended. [laughs]"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1347.655,"endTime":1349.125,"body":"Yeah, I know. I'm sorry. I'm so sorry."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1349.516,"endTime":1351.819,"body":"Canadians offending Americans. We don't want, we don't want to offend you."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1351.819,"endTime":1352.395,"body":"We're so sorry."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1352.425,"endTime":1352.445,"body":"I know. [laughs]"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1352.455,"endTime":1353.256,"body":"I'm so sorry."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1353.705,"endTime":1356.451,"body":"[laughs] Says the Canadian. No, but I think, I think an"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1356.451,"endTime":1359.195,"body":"American, maybe a North American concept of freedom is sort of like,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1360.086,"endTime":1362.705,"body":"m- the individual's right to sort of define themselves, um-"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1360.086,"endTime":1362.705,"body":"Sean McDowell: Yeah"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1362.915,"endTime":1366.048,"body":"... Or the individual's right to not have any sort of external"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1366.048,"endTime":1369.701,"body":"constraints placed upon them, that kind of idea. And that's not exactly at"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1369.701,"endTime":1373.404,"body":"all what the Bib- what the Bible's talking about when it talks about freedom."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1369.701,"endTime":1373.404,"body":"Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1373.435,"endTime":1377.297,"body":"So I think, I think that the biblical understanding of freedom is sort"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1377.297,"endTime":1381.455,"body":"of like freedom from something, and maybe we'll talk about that, and then freedom"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1381.455,"endTime":1384.722,"body":"for certain things, right? So freedom from sin, freedom from death,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1384.722,"endTime":1387.395,"body":"freedom from slavery and bondage, these kinds of things."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1387.996,"endTime":1388.006,"body":"Freedom from guilt."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1388.016,"endTime":1388.895,"body":"Yeah, freedom from guilt."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1388.955,"endTime":1389.405,"body":"Freedom from inappropriate fear-"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1389.405,"endTime":1390.076,"body":"Freedom from, freedom from shame"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1390.155,"endTime":1390.165,"body":"... And shame."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1390.175,"endTime":1391.086,"body":"Yeah, freedom from sh- yeah."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1390.175,"endTime":1391.086,"body":"Sean McDowell: Yeah."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1391.096,"endTime":1392.195,"body":"All those kinds of things."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1391.096,"endTime":1392.195,"body":"Sean McDowell: Yep."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1392.215,"endTime":1394.981,"body":"So we're, so we're free from these things, and we're free from"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1394.981,"endTime":1397.978,"body":"condemnation, all these kinds of things, but we're also free for something, right?"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1397.978,"endTime":1401.896,"body":"So, so Paul will say, you know, \"It's for freedom the Christ has set you free, so"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1401.896,"endTime":1405.585,"body":"don't use that freedom to indulge sort of like your flesh, but use it effectively to"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1405.585,"endTime":1408.811,"body":"love another person.\" And so, you know, there's this passage in"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1408.811,"endTime":1410.655,"body":"one of Luther's writings where he talks about,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1411.195,"endTime":1414.576,"body":"the Christian is the, is the free lord of all,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1415.256,"endTime":1419.614,"body":"and yet he's the, he's the dutiful servant of all. And w- and what he means by that"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1419.614,"endTime":1423.246,"body":"is because we've sort of been freed by Christ, through faith, we've received"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1419.614,"endTime":1423.246,"body":"justification,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1424.135,"endTime":1425.076,"body":"we're free. We're..."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1425.346,"endTime":1428.405,"body":"We, we don't have to work to sort of like attain a certain kind of status or a"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1428.405,"endTime":1428.915,"body":"certain sort of,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1429.675,"endTime":1433.907,"body":"relationship with God or anything along those lines. But, but as free men, as free"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1433.907,"endTime":1438.704,"body":"people, we're then called to use that, use that freedom to be the dutiful servant of all."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1438.704,"endTime":1442.935,"body":"And so our freedom is for something. We're freed from death and sin and bondage."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1443.155,"endTime":1446.276,"body":"We're free for loving God and loving other people. And so I think that's what"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1446.276,"endTime":1448.635,"body":"Christian freedom is all about."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1446.276,"endTime":1448.635,"body":"Sean McDowell: Love it. Uche Anizor: Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1449.016,"endTime":1452.753,"body":"Ooh, Che, let me... I remember when I first came to faith, w-"},{"speaker":"I was 16. Uche Anizor","startTime":1452.753,"endTime":1453.816,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1453.976,"endTime":1455.155,"body":"Came to faith in Young Life,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1456.155,"endTime":1460.069,"body":"and, I sort of grew up in a very liberal Presbyterian background. I never heard the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1460.069,"endTime":1462.516,"body":"gospel till I was in high school in Young Life."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1463.435,"endTime":1467.695,"body":"And I remember the first, probably the first three or four years I was a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1463.435,"endTime":1467.695,"body":"believer,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1468.336,"endTime":1470.756,"body":"I could not get enough of scripture."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1471.955,"endTime":1475.893,"body":"And I had this, you know, I had these Bible study guides that I worked"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1475.893,"endTime":1479.355,"body":"my, I worked my way through almost every book of the, of the Bible."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1475.893,"endTime":1479.355,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1480.056,"endTime":1484.516,"body":"And I j- I just soaked it up. And I had a couple of people who,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1485.016,"endTime":1487.705,"body":"who built into me and who helped, who helped,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1488.316,"endTime":1490.175,"body":"you know, who helped give me that love for scripture."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1491.056,"endTime":1495.417,"body":"But over the years, you know, and then I, you know, I learned Greek and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1495.417,"endTime":1497.596,"body":"Hebrew and started studying the scripture academically-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1495.417,"endTime":1497.596,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1498.155,"endTime":1501.256,"body":"... And sort of separating the devotional and the academic...."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1501.256,"endTime":1504.817,"body":"Side of reading the Bible became a little more challenging."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1501.256,"endTime":1504.817,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1505.587,"endTime":1509.428,"body":"But, you know, and I don't, I con- I confess, I don't have that,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1509.988,"endTime":1512.357,"body":"you know, that sort of initial hunger."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1509.988,"endTime":1512.357,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1512.798,"endTime":1516.986,"body":"That I like to think that my approach to Scripture is, you know,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1516.986,"endTime":1521.174,"body":"is, it has matured over time and, you know, I'm just, I'm, I'm more familiar"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1521.174,"endTime":1524.077,"body":"with Scripture than I was when I was a teenager."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1521.174,"endTime":1524.077,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1525.028,"endTime":1529.627,"body":"And so my hunger for God's Word is just, it's different."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1525.028,"endTime":1529.627,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1529.948,"endTime":1531.208,"body":"It just looks different."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1529.948,"endTime":1531.208,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1531.288,"endTime":1534.4,"body":"I'm not, I'm not sure... I have times when, and honestly, I'm,"},{"speaker":"I'm not as hungry- Uche Anizor","startTime":1534.4,"endTime":1535.728,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1535.867,"endTime":1537.788,"body":"... For God's Word as I was in the past."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1535.867,"endTime":1537.788,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1537.807,"endTime":1542.584,"body":"And some of that, I think I've been maybe a little jaded by the acade-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1542.584,"endTime":1546.958,"body":"by so much of my life looking at Scripture academically."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1542.584,"endTime":1546.958,"body":"Uche Anizor: Yeah. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1547.988,"endTime":1551.621,"body":"But I'm, I'm wondering, you know, how would a, how would a per- how"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1551.621,"endTime":1555.774,"body":"does a, how would you suggest a person develop that sort of hunger for God's Word?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1555.774,"endTime":1559.928,"body":"And what does that look like? Because for me, it looks, what it looks"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1555.774,"endTime":1559.928,"body":"like,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1560.567,"endTime":1563.757,"body":"you know, 50 years into walking with God-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1560.567,"endTime":1563.757,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1564.167,"endTime":1565.627,"body":"... It just looks different-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1564.167,"endTime":1565.627,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1565.686,"endTime":1568.127,"body":"... Than it did, you know, in those early years."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1565.686,"endTime":1568.127,"body":"Uche Anizor: Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1568.728,"endTime":1570.907,"body":"And is that, I, is that common?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1571.788,"endTime":1575.208,"body":"And how, you know, how do you help people who've been at this for a while-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1571.788,"endTime":1575.208,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1575.667,"endTime":1579.367,"body":"... You know, address, you know, maybe some of the lethargy-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1575.667,"endTime":1579.367,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1579.528,"endTime":1583.907,"body":"... That, you know, or is, you know, some of the apathy that might-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1579.528,"endTime":1583.907,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae: ... Set in- Uche Anizor","startTime":1584.248,"endTime":1584.258,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1584.258,"endTime":1586.448,"body":"... Over reading Scripture?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1584.258,"endTime":1586.448,"body":"Uche Anizor: Yeah. Scott Rae: Um-"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1586.667,"endTime":1589.135,"body":"Yeah, I think there's, there's wisdom in what you're saying."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1589.135,"endTime":1593.331,"body":"I think we have to acknowledge that there's gonna be a shift in"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1593.331,"endTime":1597.032,"body":"what passion looks like. I think. There's a, there's a shift in what passion"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1597.032,"endTime":1601.228,"body":"looks like from when I'm, I'm a brand-new Christian to when I'm 50 years walking"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1597.032,"endTime":1601.228,"body":"with Jesus."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1601.587,"endTime":1603.367,"body":"It doesn't mean the love is any different."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1603.657,"endTime":1605.428,"body":"It doesn't mean the commitment is any weaker."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1605.667,"endTime":1609.837,"body":"It just means that the passion is not gonna look like 20-year-old youthful zeal."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1609.837,"endTime":1614.008,"body":"It's gonna look different. And so we, so we need to allow for that."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1614.748,"endTime":1618.483,"body":"This is not to let us off the hook from having a real hunger for God's Word."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1618.483,"endTime":1622.415,"body":"And so I think one of the things we need to do is we need to, again, we"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1622.415,"endTime":1625.561,"body":"need to acknowledge that I'm not where I was when I was 20. There might be"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1625.561,"endTime":1627.528,"body":"something I need to fix, maybe, but it might be,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1628.028,"endTime":1631.06,"body":"it might be fine that I'm faithful in my engagement with Scripture even"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1631.06,"endTime":1631.926,"body":"though I'm not, like,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1632.688,"endTime":1636.188,"body":"bubbling over, for lack of a better term. But, you know, I was thinking about this,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1636.708,"endTime":1638.107,"body":"how does someone develop hunger?"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1639.008,"endTime":1642.782,"body":"And I think oftentimes we hunger for those things that we've experienced"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1642.782,"endTime":1646.557,"body":"as good and we want more and more and more of it."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1646.837,"endTime":1648.887,"body":"And so I, so I wonder how many of us,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1649.528,"endTime":1654.087,"body":"are just disconnected from sort of like the benefits that Scripture's actually,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1655.008,"endTime":1658.864,"body":"brought about in our lives, like whether our hearts and minds have"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1658.864,"endTime":1662.721,"body":"connected with that in recent days, right? So maybe a good practice"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1662.721,"endTime":1666.302,"body":"might be, you know, just stopping and asking the Lord, \"Lord, help me."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1666.302,"endTime":1670.435,"body":"Give... Open my eyes to see the many places in which Your Word has breathed"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1670.435,"endTime":1674.016,"body":"life and transformed various dimensions of my life, like my relationship with my"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1674.016,"endTime":1678.424,"body":"kids, my family life, my own, my own heart, the way, the way that I've, I've"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1678.424,"endTime":1682.005,"body":"engaged with friends and colleagues. Like, how has Your Word borne fruit?\" And"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1682.005,"endTime":1686.137,"body":"sort of having your heart reengage with those things, that may"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1682.005,"endTime":1686.137,"body":"stimulate."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1686.997,"endTime":1690.928,"body":"We may n- just need to pray like the psalmist, \"Lord, help me to see wonderful"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1690.928,"endTime":1695.106,"body":"things in Your law. Like, open my eyes to see these kinds of things.\" if we're, if"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1695.106,"endTime":1699.283,"body":"we're, if we're feeling like we're in a dry place, maybe we just need to s- mix"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1699.283,"endTime":1702.478,"body":"things up and try different ways of engaging the Bible."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1702.827,"endTime":1705.887,"body":"We need to do whatever we can to stir- sort of stir up that hunger, but we also"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1705.887,"endTime":1708.268,"body":"need to have a little bit of grace for ourselves where we say, \"Okay,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1709.087,"endTime":1710.377,"body":"hunger is not gonna look like,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1711.448,"endTime":1714.387,"body":"the way it did where everything was kind of new.\" So when I think about, you know,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1715.067,"endTime":1718.581,"body":"my joy in Bible reading when I, you know, in my younger days, it was because"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1718.581,"endTime":1721.216,"body":"everything was a discovery, and discovery's exciting. But when you move to"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1721.216,"endTime":1724.729,"body":"a, to a place where it's, it's not all discovery but it's, it's reminder and it's"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1724.729,"endTime":1725.387,"body":"sort of like,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1726.248,"endTime":1730.123,"body":"sort of recalibration and those kinds of things, then hunger looks different"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1730.123,"endTime":1732.508,"body":"and joy looks different, but it's no less-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae: Yeah. And that- Uche Anizor","startTime":1733.087,"endTime":1733.688,"body":"... There"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae: Yeah. And that- Uche Anizor","startTime":1733.087,"endTime":1733.688,"body":"Scott Rae: ..."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae: Yeah. And that- Uche Anizor","startTime":1733.907,"endTime":1737.058,"body":"You know, that's actually can be the discouraging part is recognizing that you"},{"speaker":"need to be reminded- Uche Anizor","startTime":1737.058,"endTime":1738.238,"body":"Yeah. [laughs]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1738.238,"endTime":1738.678,"body":"... Of these things-"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1738.708,"endTime":1739.518,"body":"Yeah. That, that's fair. Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1739.518,"endTime":1740.217,"body":"... So repeatedly."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1740.288,"endTime":1741.048,"body":"Yeah. Yeah. That's right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1741.768,"endTime":1744.857,"body":"You know, because we're, you know, we're all the crooked timber of humanity."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1745.077,"endTime":1745.827,"body":"Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1745.077,"endTime":1745.827,"body":"Scott Rae: That,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1746.807,"endTime":1751.567,"body":"sometimes the Scripture and God's Spirit just has a hard time"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1751.567,"endTime":1753.268,"body":"straightening out that crooked timber."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1753.347,"endTime":1754.607,"body":"That's right. Yeah. That's right."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1753.347,"endTime":1754.607,"body":"Scott Rae: Um-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1755.167,"endTime":1758.863,"body":"It's interesting 'cause our basketball coach here, Dave Holmquist,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1758.863,"endTime":1762.147,"body":"fourth all-time winningest basketball coach in college history,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1763.028,"endTime":1767.278,"body":"I played for him, my son's playing for him right now, and he'd just say, \"You know,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1767.278,"endTime":1771.528,"body":"one of the keys is just reminding people at the right time of what they need to"},{"speaker":"do.\" The basics. Uche Anizor","startTime":1771.528,"endTime":1772.357,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1772.367,"endTime":1774.357,"body":"It's not always this radically-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1772.367,"endTime":1774.357,"body":"Uche Anizor: Yes"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1774.357,"endTime":1775.258,"body":"... Learning something new."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1774.357,"endTime":1775.258,"body":"Uche Anizor: Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1775.258,"endTime":1777.428,"body":"And it just applies to the Scripture."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1775.258,"endTime":1777.428,"body":"Uche Anizor: I agree."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1777.847,"endTime":1780.647,"body":"I appreciate your sense of, like, give yourself grace."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1780.847,"endTime":1784.57,"body":"If you're not in a moment of joy with the Scripture, the last thing you nu- need to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1784.57,"endTime":1786.688,"body":"do is to beat [laughs] yourself up."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1784.57,"endTime":1786.688,"body":"Uche Anizor: Exactly. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1787.008,"endTime":1788.248,"body":"Maybe it's seasonal."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1787.008,"endTime":1788.248,"body":"Uche Anizor: Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1788.347,"endTime":1790.847,"body":"Maybe there is something I need to tweak and I need to change."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1788.347,"endTime":1790.847,"body":"Uche Anizor: Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1790.928,"endTime":1794.567,"body":"But the idea of, that idea of, like, recapturing what are the moments"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1794.567,"endTime":1796.248,"body":"in which I did love it?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1796.708,"endTime":1801.367,"body":"What are the moments in which I had that joy? And is there a way to tap into that?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1796.708,"endTime":1801.367,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1801.508,"endTime":1804.928,"body":"It takes some thought to do that. I think that's really good."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1805.748,"endTime":1811.857,"body":"What are some of your own practices at this stage in your journey and some of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1805.748,"endTime":1811.857,"body":"your disciplines- Uche Anizor: Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1811.857,"endTime":1813.268,"body":"... To get into the Scriptures?"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1813.327,"endTime":1818.678,"body":"Yeah. So, I find the Bible reading most, maybe enjoyable, most"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1813.327,"endTime":1818.678,"body":"fruitful,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1819.208,"endTime":1822.244,"body":"when I slow down. So I, you know, I have, I have a regular rhythm of, you"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1822.244,"endTime":1825.281,"body":"know, I'll read my four chapters so I can get through the Bible in a year kind"},{"speaker":"of thing, right? Sean McDowell","startTime":1825.281,"endTime":1825.798,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1825.827,"endTime":1828.947,"body":"So I have that, but... And that's, that's fruitful in the sense"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1828.947,"endTime":1832.307,"body":"that it's constantly sort of like w- having the Word wash over me."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1832.307,"endTime":1836.387,"body":"It's kind of helping me sort of have a good biblical sort of worldview in my"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1832.307,"endTime":1836.387,"body":"day-to-day."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1836.768,"endTime":1840.077,"body":"But, most fruit comes when I slow down-"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1840.807,"endTime":1843.847,"body":"... And I actually meditatively and reflectively read the Bible."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1844.097,"endTime":1847.574,"body":"And so I do it with a journal, or sometimes I don't do it with a journal,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1847.574,"endTime":1850.028,"body":"but I read it and then I actually respond to it,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1850.587,"endTime":1854.127,"body":"not by immediate obedience in that sense, but I respond to God."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1854.367,"endTime":1858.528,"body":"I respond to Him. And I, and I, and I'm, I'm, I'm reading the Bible relationally,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1859.087,"endTime":1862.807,"body":"and I'm, I'm not reading the Bible academically or just to read or whatever"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1862.807,"endTime":1867.058,"body":"it might be. But I'm, I'm, I'm trying to, like...Force myself to read the Bible"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1867.058,"endTime":1872.372,"body":"as if the Bible is God's speech to me, and so God is addressing me, and so I need to"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1872.372,"endTime":1874.231,"body":"sort of engage with him. So that's,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1874.991,"endTime":1878.065,"body":"that's sort of my general sort of like approach to lively Bible reading."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1878.065,"endTime":1880.902,"body":"But, but I, and you know, I've, I've had in recent years,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1881.771,"endTime":1884.344,"body":"I've had these moments where I'm like, \"Okay,\" or these seasons, not just"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1884.344,"endTime":1887.114,"body":"moments, these seasons where I felt like I need to shake things up."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1887.114,"endTime":1890.28,"body":"And so I'll, I'll stop sort of like opening the sort of book version of the"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1890.28,"endTime":1893.446,"body":"Bible, and I'll listen to the audio Bible. So I've been, I've been doing audio Bible"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1893.446,"endTime":1894.832,"body":"for a, for a long time."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1895.142,"endTime":1895.162,"body":"Oh, that's good."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1895.172,"endTime":1898.192,"body":"Or I'll, I'll change translations or I'll, I'll, I'll try to"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1898.192,"endTime":1902.311,"body":"like vary Bible teachers that I, that I, that I might wanna listen to, or,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1903.132,"endTime":1906.174,"body":"I might listen to Scripture songs. So for instance, like, Eddie Byun, one of"},{"speaker":"our, one of our faculty here- Sean McDowell","startTime":1906.174,"endTime":1907.491,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1907.551,"endTime":1909.471,"body":"... He just released an album, right? A worship album."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1909.951,"endTime":1913.838,"body":"And, and his worship album has a, has a number of songs that are just Scripture songs."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1913.838,"endTime":1917.495,"body":"And I've... So I've been listening to his album for this last, this last couple of"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1917.495,"endTime":1921.61,"body":"weeks, and he has a c- a couple songs that just keep on bringing the Scriptures to my"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1921.61,"endTime":1925.039,"body":"mind. So I'm walking through my day, and I have these Scripture texts through this"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1925.039,"endTime":1929.154,"body":"song in my mind. And so the basic idea is mix things up, add whatever you need to"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1929.154,"endTime":1933.04,"body":"add, shake things up so as to not grow dull and bored in our engagement with"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1933.04,"endTime":1934.412,"body":"the Bible. Do whatever we can."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1934.471,"endTime":1935.211,"body":"That, that's so good because-"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1935.261,"endTime":1935.422,"body":"It's very natural"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1935.422,"endTime":1938.628,"body":"... The Bible is developing spiritual muscles. If you work out and do"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1938.628,"endTime":1940.602,"body":"the same routine, you hit a plateau. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1940.632,"endTime":1941.432,"body":"Exactly. You do."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell: And you get bored. Uche Anizor","startTime":1941.451,"endTime":1942.261,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1942.261,"endTime":1944.862,"body":"You're not mo-motivated. I do the same thing. Different reps."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1942.261,"endTime":1944.862,"body":"Uche Anizor: Yep."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1944.932,"endTime":1947.991,"body":"I'm doing a different exercise, and it just keeps it interesting"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1944.932,"endTime":1947.991,"body":"to me."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1948.071,"endTime":1948.521,"body":"That's right. That's right."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1948.652,"endTime":1950.902,"body":"So I'm always shaking things up."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1948.652,"endTime":1950.902,"body":"Uche Anizor: That's right."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1950.902,"endTime":1953.797,"body":"The moment I'm not looking forward to doing it, I ask myself, \"Why do"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1953.797,"endTime":1954.832,"body":"I not wanna read this?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1955.251,"endTime":1958.551,"body":"Do I need to pivot and do something else to make it interesting?\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1955.251,"endTime":1958.551,"body":"Uche Anizor: Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1959.172,"endTime":1961.03,"body":"And I found that helps personally."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1961.372,"endTime":1964.525,"body":"Yeah. Yeah, and I'm, I'm not convinced it's, it's, it's a sin that"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1964.525,"endTime":1965.652,"body":"w- that we grow weary."},{"speaker":"You know what I mean? Sean McDowell","startTime":1965.942,"endTime":1966.582,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1966.592,"endTime":1969.632,"body":"Or that, or that we, or we come to a place where we need to change"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1969.632,"endTime":1971.531,"body":"things up. That, that's just to be human. And so-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1971.582,"endTime":1972.662,"body":"That's just human nature. It's the way the brain is."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1972.662,"endTime":1974.579,"body":"It's just human nature. Yeah, it's the way, it's the way we work."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":1974.579,"endTime":1976.791,"body":"And so just change things up. Acknowledge that and make a move."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell: Yeah, that's good. Uche Anizor","startTime":1976.932,"endTime":1977.461,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1977.531,"endTime":1982.636,"body":"Now, Uche, I wonder if people sort of misunderstand what it means to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1982.636,"endTime":1984.991,"body":"find joy in reading the Bible."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1986.352,"endTime":1990.451,"body":"And I wonder, you know, what does that actually, what does that actually"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1986.352,"endTime":1990.451,"body":"look like?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1991.652,"endTime":1995.144,"body":"And how do you think people misunderstand that notion? 'Cause that's a, I think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1995.144,"endTime":1996.891,"body":"that's a really important part of this."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1997.672,"endTime":2000.602,"body":"But for people who, you know, they, who view it as an obligation-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1997.672,"endTime":2000.602,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2000.602,"endTime":2002.994,"body":"... That I'm just sort of, you know, I'm just sort of slugging my way"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2002.994,"endTime":2004.082,"body":"through the, through the text."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2002.994,"endTime":2004.082,"body":"Uche Anizor: Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2005.612,"endTime":2006.501,"body":"You know, and,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2007.071,"endTime":2010.729,"body":"you know, some people might say, \"Well, you know, I'm really just, I'm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2010.729,"endTime":2012.672,"body":"really just checking a spiritual box.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2010.729,"endTime":2012.672,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2013.771,"endTime":2017.811,"body":"And I would really like to find joy in reading Scripture."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2013.771,"endTime":2017.811,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2018.531,"endTime":2022.621,"body":"But, you know, I think just clarifying what that actually looks like."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2018.531,"endTime":2022.621,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2022.632,"endTime":2023.721,"body":"You know, it's not somebody necessarily,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2024.251,"endTime":2027.531,"body":"you know, jumping up and down when they find an insight in Scripture."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2024.251,"endTime":2027.531,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2027.852,"endTime":2029.051,"body":"But what does that look like?"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2029.291,"endTime":2032.261,"body":"Yeah. Yeah, so, you know, I had this conversation in one"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2032.261,"endTime":2035.032,"body":"of my theology classes where we're talking about do Christians need to"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2035.032,"endTime":2038.001,"body":"experience joy all the time, right? So it's, it's the debate, and we have this"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2038.001,"endTime":2041.366,"body":"debate in class, and people are like, \"What, what do you mean by joy?\" I'm"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2041.366,"endTime":2043.939,"body":"like, \"All right, so let's talk about joy,\" right? So there's joy..."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2043.939,"endTime":2046.71,"body":"And so they'll give me their two categories, like joy is like an emotion,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2046.71,"endTime":2048.492,"body":"or joy is like this sort of deep contentment."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2048.831,"endTime":2050.291,"body":"Which one is it? And I'm like, \"Uh, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2051.211,"endTime":2053.93,"body":"the Bible's kind of ambiguous. It's, it's, it's, it's kind of both.\" So,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2053.93,"endTime":2057.067,"body":"like, there is an emotional c-component to it, and there's sort of a"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2057.067,"endTime":2059.995,"body":"deep contentment component, and both of those things should be present at, in our,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2059.995,"endTime":2060.831,"body":"in our Christian life."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2061.112,"endTime":2063.521,"body":"The contentment component needs to be sort of like the ongoing reality."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2063.771,"endTime":2066.795,"body":"The experience of emotional joy is not always gonna happen, but we need to long"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2066.795,"endTime":2069.819,"body":"for that kind of thing. And I think that that's probably the case in Scripture, right?"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2069.819,"endTime":2071.331,"body":"So we, so we need to have..."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2072.422,"endTime":2076.904,"body":"I think so much of our problems w-w-in reading the Bible and engaging with God or"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2076.904,"endTime":2080.595,"body":"whatever is our expectations, right? So if my expectation when I read the"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2080.595,"endTime":2084.55,"body":"Bible is that there's always gonna be aha moments, or there's always gonna be some"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2084.55,"endTime":2087.978,"body":"sort of like experience, then all Bible reading ends up being is disappointing"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2087.978,"endTime":2092.724,"body":"and it ends up being that, the exact opposite of joy. But if I can somehow"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2092.724,"endTime":2096.152,"body":"reframe what is happening when I read the Bible, like what's God doing?"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2096.501,"endTime":2100.88,"body":"And I think what God's often doing is He's doing this... He has a slow,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2100.88,"endTime":2104.985,"body":"formative work He's doing over the course of many weeks and months and years of"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2104.985,"endTime":2109.911,"body":"Scripture engagement that if I could, if I can sort of like get myself aligned with"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2104.985,"endTime":2109.911,"body":"that program,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2110.632,"endTime":2115.806,"body":"I can, I can find contentment at least, at least that form of joy. Like, I can find"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2115.806,"endTime":2119.831,"body":"contentment in my daily Bible reading because I'm not waiting for the pff, the"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2119.831,"endTime":2124.501,"body":"big moment, but I'm, but I'm, I'm content to allow the Word to slowly chip away-"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2119.831,"endTime":2124.501,"body":"Scott Rae: Yeah"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2124.501,"endTime":2126.911,"body":"... And slowly shape me into who God wants me to be."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2126.94,"endTime":2129.958,"body":"Yeah. I think wait for that big moment too gets a lot more"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2129.958,"endTime":2131.391,"body":"challenging the more familiar you are-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2129.958,"endTime":2131.391,"body":"Uche Anizor: Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2131.402,"endTime":2132.402,"body":"... With the Scripture-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2131.402,"endTime":2132.402,"body":"Uche Anizor: Right, right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2132.402,"endTime":2133.541,"body":"... The longer you've been reading it."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2132.402,"endTime":2133.541,"body":"Uche Anizor: Right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2133.552,"endTime":2136.976,"body":"I mean, I don't... You know, I mean, you know, familiarity"},{"speaker":"makes me go quickly- Uche Anizor","startTime":2136.976,"endTime":2139.711,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"makes me go quickly- Uche Anizor","startTime":2136.976,"endTime":2139.711,"body":"Scott Rae: ... Through. Uche Anizor: That's right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae: And I don't- Uche Anizor","startTime":2139.731,"endTime":2140.481,"body":"That's right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2140.481,"endTime":2142.882,"body":"And that's why your admonition to slow down-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2140.481,"endTime":2142.882,"body":"Uche Anizor: Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2142.911,"endTime":2147.112,"body":"... Is such a good point. But I, you know, yeah, but I'm..."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2147.391,"endTime":2151.632,"body":"Yeah, I think I would see it as more as a sort of deep contentment-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2147.391,"endTime":2151.632,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2151.641,"endTime":2156.452,"body":"... With the fact that even if, even if I can't see it, God's doing"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2151.641,"endTime":2156.452,"body":"something- Uche Anizor: Yes"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae: ... With me. Uche Anizor","startTime":2156.461,"endTime":2157.192,"body":"Yes."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2157.231,"endTime":2160.53,"body":"And it may not, I may not see the fruit of that, you know, for some"},{"speaker":"time to come. Uche Anizor","startTime":2160.53,"endTime":2161.32,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"time to come. Uche Anizor","startTime":2161.632,"endTime":2165.246,"body":"That's right. Yeah. We walk by faith not by sight in the sense that even w-"},{"speaker":"time to come. Uche Anizor","startTime":2165.246,"endTime":2168.222,"body":"even our spiritual growth, s-sometimes the wrong question to ask is like, \"Today, am"},{"speaker":"time to come. Uche Anizor","startTime":2168.222,"endTime":2171.836,"body":"I growing? Did, did I grow?\" And it's like, well, I don't, I don't, I don't know."},{"speaker":"time to come. Uche Anizor","startTime":2171.836,"endTime":2175.025,"body":"Like, I mean, like, talk to someone, ask someone else after two"},{"speaker":"time to come. Uche Anizor","startTime":2175.025,"endTime":2178.214,"body":"years, ask them, \"Have I grown?\" And, and they'll, they'll give you a better"},{"speaker":"time to come. Uche Anizor","startTime":2178.214,"endTime":2181.403,"body":"answer than you asking that question or you wanting to see it on the day-to-day."},{"speaker":"time to come. Uche Anizor","startTime":2181.403,"endTime":2183.742,"body":"So I think it's the same with our Bible reading."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2183.742,"endTime":2188.386,"body":"So let me be a little bit of a contrarian just for fun because I'm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2188.386,"endTime":2193.65,"body":"with you on the slow process, but I read all the time going, \"I'm just looking for"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2193.65,"endTime":2197.056,"body":"a connection I didn't see. Help me understand something here.\" And"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2197.056,"endTime":2201.7,"body":"with that mindset, I often see stuff. Like I was just reading the Gospel of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2201.7,"endTime":2206.345,"body":"John, and twice in chapter one it refers to John the Baptist who came physically"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2206.345,"endTime":2209.351,"body":"before Jesus but says twice, \"He existed before me.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2206.345,"endTime":2209.351,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2209.672,"endTime":2210.652,"body":"Like, oh, that's twice."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2211.172,"endTime":2216.282,"body":"Why is that emphasized? And it kind of unlocked the role of John the Baptist"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2211.172,"endTime":2216.282,"body":"that's there. Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2216.351,"endTime":2218.762,"body":"So I wanna read with that expectation-"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2218.782,"endTime":2219.001,"body":"Yeah, that's good"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2219.001,"endTime":2220.041,"body":"... And not lose that."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2219.001,"endTime":2220.041,"body":"Uche Anizor: Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2220.672,"endTime":2223.387,"body":"So maybe this would be a way to ask the question. If I'm your"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2223.387,"endTime":2226.751,"body":"student, I come to you and I go, \"Uche, I wanna get into the Bible more.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2223.387,"endTime":2226.751,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2227.231,"endTime":2232.146,"body":"\"What expectations should I have so I can get the most out of it but"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2232.146,"endTime":2234.831,"body":"not be disappointed like you described? Coach me.\""},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2235.072,"endTime":2239.833,"body":"All right. So I thinkThe, the pattern of the Christian life, not"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2239.833,"endTime":2242.764,"body":"just in Bible reading, is we pray expectantly,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2243.664,"endTime":2248.406,"body":"but we, but we don't pray presumptively or have, or be presumptuous in our, in"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2248.406,"endTime":2253.149,"body":"our prayers, right? So, so we want to pray with hands open,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2253.149,"endTime":2257.003,"body":"expectantly, like, that God can actually do this, right? So that's, that's"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2257.003,"endTime":2261.449,"body":"our, that has to be our posture. But we need to understand that God's"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2261.449,"endTime":2264.413,"body":"typical program isn't that. And so that's the tension, right?"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2264.413,"endTime":2268.574,"body":"And we're flitting back and forth between those two, those two things at all-"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2264.413,"endTime":2268.574,"body":"Sean McDowell: Yeah"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2268.574,"endTime":2272.146,"body":"... At all times. And so when it comes to Bible reading, my"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2272.146,"endTime":2276.229,"body":"prayer is, \"Lord, show me wonderful things in your law. Help me to see things- ..."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2276.229,"endTime":2279.801,"body":"That'll delight my heart. But also, Lord, help me to find"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2279.801,"endTime":2283.119,"body":"contentment in this relational engagement that I'm having in reading, in reading"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2283.119,"endTime":2287.712,"body":"your Word.\" It's, it's, it's the, it's the both and I think we can't give"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2287.712,"endTime":2291.794,"body":"up the expectant stuff. And then we, then we won't, we'll, we'll do exactly"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2291.794,"endTime":2295.112,"body":"what you're saying. We- ... We won't see the things that we could"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2295.112,"endTime":2297.664,"body":"potentially see because we're not expecting to see them, right?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2297.744,"endTime":2299.423,"body":"So like a realistic-"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2299.454,"endTime":2299.673,"body":"So I think that's both, it's both/and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2299.673,"endTime":2301.954,"body":"... Hope, and you're just gonna live in that tension, and that's okay."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2301.983,"endTime":2302.673,"body":"I think that's just,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2301.983,"endTime":2302.673,"body":"Sean McDowell: Yeah"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2302.673,"endTime":2304.143,"body":"... That's the, that's the Christian life in a nutshell."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2304.204,"endTime":2304.213,"body":"That's fair. I can live with that."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2304.224,"endTime":2305.284,"body":"Yeah, I think so. Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2306.244,"endTime":2311.744,"body":"Yeah. That, that actually, I think, helps give people grace a-along the way."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2306.244,"endTime":2311.744,"body":"Uche Anizor: Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2312.804,"endTime":2315.284,"body":"You know, I th- and I think that retrospective look back,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2315.963,"endTime":2318.463,"body":"you know, a, you know, after a year or two years-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2315.963,"endTime":2318.463,"body":"Uche Anizor: Two, yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2318.943,"endTime":2320.414,"body":"... Is, that's a really helpful part-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2318.943,"endTime":2320.414,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2320.414,"endTime":2320.744,"body":"... Of this."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2321.304,"endTime":2325.979,"body":"'Cause I can, you know, it's like, you know, I c- I didn't chart my kids'"},{"speaker":"growth every day- Uche Anizor","startTime":2325.979,"endTime":2326.983,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae: ... On the wall. Uche Anizor","startTime":2327.043,"endTime":2327.923,"body":"Right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2328.204,"endTime":2330.503,"body":"You know, I'd chart it every three months-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2328.204,"endTime":2330.503,"body":"Uche Anizor: Right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2330.523,"endTime":2333.164,"body":"... Every six, you know, and you can, where you can see it."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2333.244,"endTime":2334.264,"body":"Yeah, that's exactly right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2334.463,"endTime":2338.954,"body":"And so, you know, I think the, just the whole biblical concept"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2334.463,"endTime":2338.954,"body":"of wisdom,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2339.684,"endTime":2341.744,"body":"you know, being fundamentally a skill-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2339.684,"endTime":2341.744,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2342.143,"endTime":2346.558,"body":"... That takes, you know, takes time to develop- ... And, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2346.558,"endTime":2351.693,"body":"early attempts at, you know, the kinds of crafts that the Bible describes"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2346.558,"endTime":2351.693,"body":"as skills- Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae: ... As wisdom- Uche Anizor","startTime":2351.693,"endTime":2352.724,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2353.023,"endTime":2355.963,"body":"... You know, are not developed overnight."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2353.023,"endTime":2355.963,"body":"Uche Anizor: That's right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2356.123,"endTime":2360.656,"body":"And I think sometimes we get i- we get impatient with the lo- the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2360.656,"endTime":2364.583,"body":"long game, that our spiritu- our spiritual life actually is the long game."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm. That's right. Scott Rae","startTime":2364.623,"endTime":2365.884,"body":"Um-"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2365.963,"endTime":2368.948,"body":"Yeah, and we get discouraged by, because of our impatience at the end"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2368.948,"endTime":2371.932,"body":"of the day, yeah. And so it discourages Bible reading, it discourages"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2371.932,"endTime":2375.146,"body":"prayer, discourages a number of the things that we're meant to sort of"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2375.146,"endTime":2376.844,"body":"engage with, in our Christian lives."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2375.146,"endTime":2376.844,"body":"Scott Rae: Yeah. Uche Anizor: Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2376.873,"endTime":2379.923,"body":"And that's why I think the relational setting that you put this in is"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2376.873,"endTime":2379.923,"body":"so helpful."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2380.864,"endTime":2384.35,"body":"And I, and I would say that that relational setting is really helpful in"},{"speaker":"understanding our sin- Uche Anizor","startTime":2384.35,"endTime":2385.284,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae: ... As well. Uche Anizor","startTime":2385.443,"endTime":2385.954,"body":"Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2385.983,"endTime":2389.524,"body":"It's not, it's not because, you know, I've done something that shames me."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2389.524,"endTime":2392.264,"body":"It's because I've hurt someone that I love."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2389.524,"endTime":2392.264,"body":"Uche Anizor: That's right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2392.543,"endTime":2395.213,"body":"And I feel, I don't feel guilt, I feel sorrow."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2392.543,"endTime":2395.213,"body":"Uche Anizor: Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2395.233,"endTime":2395.824,"body":"I feel sadness-"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2395.864,"endTime":2396.384,"body":"Yeah, that's right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2396.543,"endTime":2398.264,"body":"... Because of how I've hurt someone-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2396.543,"endTime":2398.264,"body":"Uche Anizor: That's right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2398.364,"endTime":2401.143,"body":"... Who has, who has loved me and who I love so dearly."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2401.184,"endTime":2402.443,"body":"Amen, yeah. Amen."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2402.693,"endTime":2405.793,"body":"One, another thing I thought about is do,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2406.643,"endTime":2412.126,"body":"would you have a different set of suggestions for someone who is new to the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2412.126,"endTime":2417.974,"body":"Bible, maybe di- maybe sorta like you, did not grow up around the Bible- ..."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2417.974,"endTime":2421.472,"body":"And familiar, the Bible was kinda a new thing."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2417.974,"endTime":2421.472,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2422.684,"endTime":2427.172,"body":"How would you coach them to initially get into God's Word without"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2427.172,"endTime":2433.903,"body":"being sort of blown away by all the stuff that is probably gonna make them confused"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2427.172,"endTime":2433.903,"body":"and puzzled?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2435.023,"endTime":2438.704,"body":"You know, I could see them getting lost in the, you know, in Chronicles-"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2438.733,"endTime":2438.753,"body":"Mm-hmm. Yeah, absolutely"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2438.753,"endTime":2441.344,"body":"... Or Leviticus or some place like that."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2438.753,"endTime":2441.344,"body":"Sean McDowell: Daniel."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2441.583,"endTime":2442.864,"body":"Yep, yep. Ab-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2442.903,"endTime":2443.833,"body":"among others. [laughs]"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2443.833,"endTime":2446.507,"body":"[laughs] Yeah. Yeah, so, you know, I became a"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2446.507,"endTime":2450.519,"body":"Christian once, when someone gave me a King James Bible. I was 18 years old."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2450.519,"endTime":2453.193,"body":"I got a King James Bible. The person just said,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2454.034,"endTime":2457.985,"body":"\"Read f- the Gospel of Matthew, and then kinda work your way through it,\" or whatever."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2457.985,"endTime":2462.184,"body":"So I had no idea how to read a Bible. I'd never had a hermeneutics anything."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2462.184,"endTime":2466.136,"body":"But I just started reading the Bible as a non-Christian, and lo and behold, I'm"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2466.136,"endTime":2469.594,"body":"able to understand it, and I'm, I'm, I'm able to encounter the real Jesus."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2469.903,"endTime":2473.212,"body":"You know, prior to that I was a Mormon, right? So, so I didn't know the real Jesus."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2473.212,"endTime":2475.233,"body":"And so I'm en- I'm encountering the real Jesus,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2476.463,"endTime":2481.522,"body":"and I'm encountering His teaching on sin and redemption and resurrection, and I'm"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2481.522,"endTime":2485.023,"body":"wooed by Jesus Himself in the Gospels. And so"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2487.063,"endTime":2488.824,"body":"the non-Chri- if a non-Christian,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2489.463,"endTime":2492.628,"body":"who doesn't have the Spirit of God in them and whatever, is able to understand and be"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2492.628,"endTime":2495.793,"body":"drawn to Jesus and re- and make sense of, make sense of the New Testament,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2496.304,"endTime":2500.449,"body":"surely even the most brand new Christian can. And so I would say for the brand new"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2500.449,"endTime":2502.643,"body":"Christian, start where I started. Start in the Gospels-"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2503.164,"endTime":2505.772,"body":"... And have a realistic plan for just kind of daily reading it."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2505.772,"endTime":2509.498,"body":"So as, you know, as a non-believer, I w- I would sit in my, you know, sit in my room"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2509.498,"endTime":2512.48,"body":"at night and I'd, I'd read, like, chunks of Scripture. I didn't, I didn't read them"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2512.48,"endTime":2515.833,"body":"by the chapter. I didn't know how to read. I just kinda read until I got tired."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2516.103,"endTime":2520.063,"body":"And so for the, for the new Christian, I would just simply say, have a"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2520.063,"endTime":2523.79,"body":"plan. So have a realistic daily plan where you're every day gonna read the Bi- the"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2523.79,"endTime":2527.284,"body":"Bible for 15 minutes, and then after that 15 minutes, you're gonna respond to it."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2527.943,"endTime":2530.043,"body":"And by respond to it, I mean you're going to, like,"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2530.744,"endTime":2534.583,"body":"take something from that, and you're gonna sort of prayerfully bring that back to the"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2530.744,"endTime":2534.583,"body":"Lord."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2535.284,"endTime":2537.724,"body":"And that's it."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2537.824,"endTime":2538.344,"body":"See what, see what happens."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2538.353,"endTime":2540.494,"body":"Yeah, see what happens over the course of time. I-"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2538.353,"endTime":2540.494,"body":"Scott Rae: Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2540.494,"endTime":2542.941,"body":"... Think you'll be shaped and you will understand the Bible."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2542.941,"endTime":2546.204,"body":"You'll, you'll be like those guys who mentored me in my early days as a Christian."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2546.623,"endTime":2551.336,"body":"None of them had theological education, but they knew the Lord and they knew the"},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2551.336,"endTime":2555.107,"body":"Word just by reading it and being voracious readers of the Bible."},{"speaker":"And so daily plan. Scott Rae","startTime":2555.107,"endTime":2557.193,"body":"Love it."},{"speaker":"And so daily plan. Scott Rae","startTime":2555.107,"endTime":2557.193,"body":"Uche Anizor: Yeah. Scott Rae: Love it."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2557.193,"endTime":2557.193,"body":"Daily plan."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2557.224,"endTime":2559.364,"body":"That's, that's a drop the mic moment right there."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2559.653,"endTime":2560.954,"body":"Yeah, let's do it."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2559.653,"endTime":2560.954,"body":"Scott Rae: That's great. Sean McDowell: [laughs]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2561.003,"endTime":2562.503,"body":"Anything else you wanna-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2561.003,"endTime":2562.503,"body":"Sean McDowell: No"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2562.583,"endTime":2563.213,"body":"... You wanna throw in there?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2563.213,"endTime":2564.844,"body":"You nailed it. Good book. Appreciate it."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2563.213,"endTime":2564.844,"body":"Well- Scott Rae: Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2564.853,"endTime":2565.173,"body":"... Well done."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2565.224,"endTime":2566.523,"body":"This is great stuff. And,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2567.164,"endTime":2570.917,"body":"I w- you know, I like the idea that you have here about reading, you know, reading"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2570.917,"endTime":2572.903,"body":"a cha- you know, like a chapter a week,"},{"speaker":"and do it slowly. Uche Anizor","startTime":2573.864,"endTime":2575.063,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae: Do it devotionally. Uche Anizor","startTime":2575.204,"endTime":2576.802,"body":"Yep."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2576.864,"endTime":2580.753,"body":"And to appreciate the other things. I lo- I love how you put the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2580.753,"endTime":2584.623,"body":"ga- that some of these gifts are gateways to other gifts as well."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2580.753,"endTime":2584.623,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2584.813,"endTime":2588.184,"body":"And I would say that I think the main thing I took away is that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2584.813,"endTime":2588.184,"body":"the,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2588.744,"endTime":2594.974,"body":"the Scripture is the main gateway for the gifts of God, the various gifts of God-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2588.744,"endTime":2594.974,"body":"Uche Anizor: Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2595.224,"endTime":2597.704,"body":"... To come into our lives and to take root."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2597.943,"endTime":2598.503,"body":"That's exactly right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2598.603,"endTime":2602.123,"body":"So we are, we are so grateful for this. And, your students,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2603.244,"endTime":2608.185,"body":"I mean, who, what parent wouldn't want their student to come be exposed to"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2608.185,"endTime":2609.173,"body":"somebody like this-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2609.344,"endTime":2610.204,"body":"Amen. Let's go"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2610.284,"endTime":2611.884,"body":"... And this, and this view of Scripture?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2610.284,"endTime":2611.884,"body":"Uche Anizor: Oh, thanks."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2612.184,"endTime":2615.862,"body":"So this is great stuff. And you know what I mean, I observed"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2615.862,"endTime":2620.583,"body":"him teach a couple years ago for a promotion application and was just"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2615.862,"endTime":2620.583,"body":"thrilled- Uche Anizor: Cool Scott Rae: ..."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2620.793,"endTime":2624.058,"body":"To see, to see what I saw. So and the book, I think, you know, it"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2624.058,"endTime":2626.483,"body":"ref- it reflects the way you teach in the classroom, too."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2624.058,"endTime":2626.483,"body":"Uche Anizor: Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae: So your stu- Uche Anizor","startTime":2627.384,"endTime":2627.994,"body":"Hope so"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2627.994,"endTime":2631.143,"body":"... Your stu- your students are richly blessed as a result of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2627.994,"endTime":2631.143,"body":"this,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2631.813,"endTime":2636.384,"body":"and, you are a huge asset to both the Talbot and to Biola."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2636.523,"endTime":2637.844,"body":"I appreciate that, Scott."},{"speaker":"Uche Anizor","startTime":2636.523,"endTime":2637.844,"body":"Scott Rae: So- Uche Anizor: Thank you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2637.853,"endTime":2642.128,"body":"... I wanna recommend \"The Goodness of God in the Gift of Scripture,\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2642.128,"endTime":2643.443,"body":"our colleague Uche Anozie."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2644.003,"endTime":2648.997,"body":"Thanks so much for joining us today. If you have questions or comments, please"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2648.997,"endTime":2650.423,"body":"email us at thinkbiblically@biola.edu,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2650.923,"endTime":2654.204,"body":"and join us on Friday for our weekly cultural update. In the meantime,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2654.784,"endTime":2662.943,"body":"think biblically about everything. [upbeat music]"}]}