{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1.36,"endTime":4.839,"body":"[upbeat music] What is a biblical response to transgender theory?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":5.36,"endTime":7.9,"body":"What is the relationship between sex and gender?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":8.31,"endTime":14.19,"body":"And how can Christians best navigate our cultural moment with biblical conviction"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":8.31,"endTime":14.19,"body":"and compassion?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":14.66,"endTime":19.03,"body":"These are some of the questions we're going to explore today with our guest, Dr."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":14.66,"endTime":19.03,"body":"Robert Smith,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":19.579,"endTime":25.049,"body":"author of the new book, which is my go-to of its kind. It's called \"The Body God"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":25.049,"endTime":26.98,"body":"Gives.\" I'm your host, Sean McDowell."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":27.059,"endTime":28.219,"body":"I'm your co-host, Scott Rae."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":28.42,"endTime":32.42,"body":"This is Think Biblically from Talbot School of Theology, Biola"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":28.42,"endTime":32.42,"body":"University."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":33.02,"endTime":36.42,"body":"Robert, it's great to have you on. Thanks so much for taking the time to join us."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":37.079,"endTime":39.579,"body":"It's a great pleasure. I'm looking forward to talking with you both."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":40.1,"endTime":45.142,"body":"Well, you talk early in the book about what you call a transgender"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":45.142,"endTime":47.469,"body":"tipping point that hit around 2013,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":48.1,"endTime":53.211,"body":"and someone could argue that we've had a tipping point maybe two years ago or so,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":53.211,"endTime":58.323,"body":"but talk about what you mean by that and maybe how you think the conversation has"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":58.323,"endTime":60.56,"body":"again shifted, within the past couple years."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":61.28,"endTime":63.74,"body":"Yeah, well, the language of the transgender tipping point,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":64.42,"endTime":70.659,"body":"was the title given to a Time magazine cover story, I think early in 2014."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":72.48,"endTime":77.563,"body":"And they pinpointed the tipping point sort of late 2013, where a number of things"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":77.563,"endTime":78.579,"body":"kind of coalesced."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":79.599,"endTime":85.477,"body":"There were some changes in the DSM, the new DSM-V. That DSM stands for"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":85.477,"endTime":88.219,"body":"Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":89.76,"endTime":94.76,"body":"That's where the language of gender dysphoria was introduced to replace- ..."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":94.98,"endTime":99.4,"body":"Gender identity disorder, so that was a fairly s- well, very significant shift."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":100.019,"endTime":100.209,"body":"But, but the,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":100.719,"endTime":105.319,"body":"I think the bigger thing was the cultural celebrations of transgender"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":100.719,"endTime":105.319,"body":"identities."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":105.569,"endTime":111.689,"body":"And this, of course, was a time when tr- same-sex marriage was w- in the process of"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":111.689,"endTime":114.93,"body":"being, passed in the UK, the U.S., Australia,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":115.459,"endTime":120.939,"body":"many other places, and I think people were looking for the next civil rights cause."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":121.18,"endTime":127.069,"body":"And, of course, once you've ticked off LGB, you come to T. So-"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":121.18,"endTime":127.069,"body":"Sean McDowell: That's right"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":127.14,"endTime":130.319,"body":"... That's, I think, what got us to that tipping point."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":131.759,"endTime":135.072,"body":"Yeah, I don't know what the reverse of a tipping poi- tipping point is, a receding"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":135.072,"endTime":135.9,"body":"point or something. But,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":136.58,"endTime":141.039,"body":"I think in the last couple of years, w- there's certainly been some major"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":136.58,"endTime":141.039,"body":"pushback,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":142.56,"endTime":145.08,"body":"certainly coming from medical bodies and medical reports."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":145.759,"endTime":147.78,"body":"There's been cultural pushback about,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":149.08,"endTime":154.659,"body":"you know, trans women in female sports. There's been, outrage really about,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":155.52,"endTime":161.539,"body":"trans women being put into female prisons and so a number of things have, I"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":155.52,"endTime":161.539,"body":"think,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":162.319,"endTime":168.5,"body":"caused the general public and certain, bodies like, yeah, well,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":169.159,"endTime":172.939,"body":"medical people to s- stand up and say, \"Hang on a second. No, no, we,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":174.36,"endTime":175.84,"body":"we can't, we can't,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":176.8,"endTime":179.9,"body":"run with this.\" And so that, I think, has put a major brake on things."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":179.9,"endTime":183.0,"body":"But I don't think I don't think we're at the end of it."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":183.319,"endTime":186.719,"body":"You know, we may be somewhere between, D-Day and VE Day,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":187.24,"endTime":192.06,"body":"if you- ... Think in Second World War terms. But, we're certainly not,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":192.699,"endTime":194.28,"body":"it's not all about to go away tomorrow."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":195.039,"endTime":199.05,"body":"I should have mentioned this at the beginning, but you're an"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":199.05,"endTime":203.425,"body":"ordained Anglican minister and lecturer in theology, ethics, and music ministry at"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":203.425,"endTime":207.435,"body":"Sydney Missionary and Bible College. So you've got an international perspective"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":207.435,"endTime":212.539,"body":"to bring to this and see things that we haven't quite heard from yet."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":213.52,"endTime":216.56,"body":"Well, I should have mentioned this earlier. I've recently"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":216.56,"endTime":217.319,"body":"finished up my,"},{"speaker":"my teaching time at SMBC. Sean McDowell","startTime":217.939,"endTime":221.56,"body":"Oh, okay."},{"speaker":"my teaching time at SMBC. Sean McDowell","startTime":217.939,"endTime":221.56,"body":"Robert S. Smith: And,"},{"speaker":"my teaching time at SMBC. Sean McDowell","startTime":222.4,"endTime":225.78,"body":"well, I'm in the midst of writing, [chuckles] one thing for you, of course."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":225.819,"endTime":226.96,"body":"That's right. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":227.06,"endTime":231.139,"body":"but, I'm also just working out exactly where the Lord wants"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":227.06,"endTime":231.139,"body":"me-"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":232.219,"endTime":234.449,"body":"... To direct my energies in the, well,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":235.12,"endTime":239.259,"body":"whatever years He has left for me. So, but yes, I'm still doing some"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":235.12,"endTime":239.259,"body":"lecturing and,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":240.479,"endTime":241.599,"body":"lots of writing at the moment."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":243.539,"endTime":249.052,"body":"So Robert, tell us exactly what you mean by the term transgender and, you"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":249.052,"endTime":254.564,"body":"know, your subtitle is A Biblical Response to Transgender Theory. What, what's at the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":254.564,"endTime":256.139,"body":"heart of transgender theory?"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":258.199,"endTime":260.819,"body":"Well, let me answer the first question first. Transgender,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":262.98,"endTime":269.699,"body":"it's a term that is applied to people who either experience or express,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":270.98,"endTime":273.009,"body":"their gender, and we'll come back to what that is,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":274.199,"endTime":277.339,"body":"in a way that's, different from their sex."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":278.339,"endTime":283.399,"body":"So the key to the word lies in the prefix trans, which is Latin meaning on the other"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":278.339,"endTime":283.399,"body":"side of."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":284.06,"endTime":286.199,"body":"And so, strictly speaking, a,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":286.74,"endTime":289.819,"body":"a transgender person, or as I prefer, a trans-identified person,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":291.439,"endTime":294.259,"body":"again, experience or expresses their gender."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":295.839,"endTime":297.459,"body":"Either they think about it, perceive it,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":298.18,"endTime":302.308,"body":"or they, you know, live it out in the world in a way that is contrary or"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":302.308,"endTime":303.279,"body":"opposite to their sex."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":303.8,"endTime":306.11,"body":"But of course, it's a bit messier than that because,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":306.66,"endTime":309.399,"body":"as we're very familiar, there are terms like non-binary and,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":309.939,"endTime":317.5,"body":"and, you know, demi-boy and demi-girl and then, so it's not exactly a sort of,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":309.939,"endTime":317.5,"body":"180 degree,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":320.199,"endTime":324.404,"body":"opposition, as it were, between sex and gender. It could be 90 degrees or 45 degrees."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":324.404,"endTime":327.62,"body":"And so again, I often just say it's for someone who expresses their,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":328.81,"endTime":333.155,"body":"gender in a way that's different from their biological sex. It may be completely"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":333.155,"endTime":336.259,"body":"different, or it may be partially different, but different."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":336.959,"endTime":343.24,"body":"So that's what that language is intended to convey. Now, transgender theory,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":344.439,"endTime":348.72,"body":"I suppose is a w- an attempt to make sense of that,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":349.55,"endTime":350.92,"body":"the experience that some people have."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":351.699,"endTime":355.12,"body":"And the theory runs like this. Transgender theory says, first of all,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":355.62,"endTime":360.766,"body":"sex and gender are in no way internally connected. They're, in fact, to"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":360.766,"endTime":363.339,"body":"use one proponent's language, they're radically independent,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":363.899,"endTime":368.755,"body":"and that means that there's no reason why your sex and your gender, uh-Should align."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":368.975,"endTime":370.016,"body":"They might happen to align,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":370.615,"endTime":375.954,"body":"as they do for many people, but there's no reason why they should align or need to align."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":376.475,"endTime":380.489,"body":"And so this is where the other term cisgender sometimes pops in as saying,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":380.489,"endTime":381.636,"body":"well, that's when you-"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":382.156,"endTime":387.456,"body":"the two things end on the same side. Transgender is when they are on different"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":382.156,"endTime":387.456,"body":"sides."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":387.776,"endTime":389.696,"body":"So the theory says that first up,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":390.696,"endTime":394.555,"body":"but what that then implies is that, well, clearly it's not your body,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":395.055,"endTime":397.315,"body":"your sex, that determines your gender."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":397.735,"endTime":402.213,"body":"And so if you ask the question, \"Well, what does determine your gender?\""},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":402.213,"endTime":407.036,"body":"Transgender theory says it's your gender identity- ... That determines your gender"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":402.213,"endTime":407.036,"body":"and therefore,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":408.295,"endTime":412.286,"body":"well, in the more radical versions, even rewrites your sex effectively."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":413.935,"endTime":418.735,"body":"So yeah, gender identity is king in transgender theory. It's the real you."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":419.086,"endTime":424.227,"body":"It's maybe subjective and internal and all of that, but i-i-it's the"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":424.227,"endTime":425.696,"body":"deepest truth about you,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":426.495,"endTime":431.652,"body":"and if it's different to your body, then you can change your body to fit it or"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":431.652,"endTime":436.236,"body":"not, because as I said, the more radical end says that your gender identity kind of"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":436.236,"endTime":438.086,"body":"reclassifies your body. Um-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":438.086,"endTime":442.919,"body":"Give us your response to that, if you will, 'cause I have a way I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":442.919,"endTime":447.108,"body":"respond when people say you can separate your gender identity from your biological"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":447.108,"endTime":451.62,"body":"sex, and I typically point towards other examples where people won't do that with"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":451.62,"endTime":453.875,"body":"age, they won't do it with race,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":454.415,"endTime":456.696,"body":"they won't do it with, say, your height,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":457.276,"endTime":461.984,"body":"but all of a sudden they will separate it when it comes to sexuality, which shows an"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":461.984,"endTime":462.815,"body":"inconsistent to me,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":463.415,"endTime":466.776,"body":"an inconsistency and somewhat of an agenda behind it."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":467.396,"endTime":472.278,"body":"But how do you respond to that i-idea at the heart of transgender theory that says"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":472.278,"endTime":476.245,"body":"your identity is rooted in your feelings and your attractions, so to speak,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":476.896,"endTime":478.235,"body":"rather than in your body?"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":478.836,"endTime":481.256,"body":"Yeah, well, I think firstly, we just need to recognize that"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":481.256,"endTime":482.576,"body":"there certainly are some people who,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":483.815,"endTime":486.536,"body":"well, clearly experience and clearly express,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":488.235,"endTime":492.995,"body":"a gender that is different from their sex. Now why they're doing that,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":494.235,"endTime":497.859,"body":"o-of course can... Well, there can be many and many different reasons for that."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":497.859,"endTime":503.456,"body":"But I guess we just need, first of all, to recognize there's some pe-people in a lot"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":497.859,"endTime":503.456,"body":"of pain- ..."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":504.115,"endTime":507.895,"body":"About their experience of life and perhaps their sexed embodiment. They may be"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":507.895,"endTime":513.129,"body":"ashamed of that sex or confused about what gender is and where they fit in in the world."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":513.129,"endTime":517.2,"body":"So I think it's important to perhaps just start there, recognize, okay, it,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":517.2,"endTime":519.235,"body":"it's messy out there on the ground."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":520.456,"endTime":525.625,"body":"But when someone with a male body says, \"I am a woman,\" or even, \"I feel like a"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":520.456,"endTime":525.625,"body":"woman,\""},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":527.346,"endTime":529.296,"body":"the simple fact of the matter is they're not a woman."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":530.755,"endTime":532.176,"body":"You know, they're, they're a male person,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":533.176,"endTime":538.635,"body":"and, you know, by definition cannot be a woman, which is an adult female human."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":539.416,"endTime":543.205,"body":"But a-again, if you sort of press on that, as I certainly have in conversation with"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":543.205,"endTime":544.625,"body":"many people, and say, \"Well, when,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":545.176,"endTime":548.105,"body":"when you say you're a woman or you feel like a woman, what is it--"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":549.176,"endTime":553.873,"body":"what are you saying by that?\" and it does beg a logical question, you know."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":553.873,"endTime":559.197,"body":"How can someone with a male body say that I feel like someone with a female body?"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":559.197,"endTime":561.076,"body":"[chuckles] How is that even possible?"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":562.596,"endTime":566.587,"body":"But it also begs the question, how would you even know what a woman felt like to"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":566.587,"endTime":569.655,"body":"know that you feel like one?"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":566.587,"endTime":569.655,"body":"Sean McDowell: Great question. Robert S. Smith: I..."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":570.056,"endTime":572.979,"body":"F- to be honest, I don't know what it feels like to be a man. I only know"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":572.979,"endTime":574.056,"body":"what it feels like to be me,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":575.176,"endTime":578.235,"body":"who is a man, but I don't know what it feels like to be any man,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":578.995,"endTime":579.995,"body":"e-either of you or anyone else."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":581.495,"endTime":585.095,"body":"So yeah, there's some deep, I guess, logical philosophical issues there."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":585.095,"endTime":590.33,"body":"But again, to come back to the personal pastoral, when a s- when a person says,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":590.33,"endTime":593.275,"body":"\"I feel like a woman,\" we probe that."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":593.655,"endTime":598.374,"body":"Often they're say-saying something like, \"Well, I seem to identify more with things"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":598.374,"endTime":599.826,"body":"that women identify with,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":601.096,"endTime":605.501,"body":"and I'm perhaps not comfortable in the company of men or I don't find it easy"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":605.501,"endTime":607.056,"body":"to make friends with men,\" or,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":608.775,"endTime":612.676,"body":"\"I don't like my body and I wish I had a different body.\""},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":614.655,"endTime":619.35,"body":"you know, whatever, you know, there's a range of possible things, but often it"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":619.35,"endTime":624.046,"body":"comes down to some area of discomfort, perhaps even, with some trauma behind it"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":619.35,"endTime":624.046,"body":"or,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":625.355,"endTime":629.815,"body":"some confusion in the person's experience that's then taking th-them to this"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":625.355,"endTime":629.815,"body":"place,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":630.836,"endTime":634.403,"body":"and invoking this theory or philosophy that's saying, \"Well, actually, I'm really"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":634.403,"endTime":638.615,"body":"a woman trapped in a man's body,\" which, of course,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":634.403,"endTime":638.615,"body":"they're not."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":641.135,"endTime":644.416,"body":"So Robert, let's be clear for our listeners here sort of right off the bat."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":645.395,"endTime":649.806,"body":"What is the difference between sex and gender, and how should we-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":645.395,"endTime":649.806,"body":"Robert S. Smith: Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":649.806,"endTime":653.155,"body":"... Think about the relationship between those two things?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":649.806,"endTime":653.155,"body":"Robert S. Smith: Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":653.436,"endTime":657.552,"body":"Okay, this in some ways all that we've said so far kind of, requires a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":657.552,"endTime":659.096,"body":"clarity on this question, doesn't it?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":660.176,"endTime":662.881,"body":"Now, I think sex is fairly straightforward, and, certainly most"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":662.881,"endTime":666.668,"body":"people are not particularly confused. It's, it's got to do with our biology, our"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":666.668,"endTime":670.456,"body":"physiology, our reproductive anatomy, and so on. Are we male? Are we female?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":671.995,"endTime":677.615,"body":"Gender is a much more complex notion, partly because it is used in a variety of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":671.995,"endTime":677.615,"body":"different ways."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":678.635,"endTime":681.275,"body":"Some people of course, just use it as a synonym for sex, and,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":681.895,"endTime":684.895,"body":"and that certainly was a his- a historic meaning,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":685.936,"endTime":689.605,"body":"for the term, and still a current meaning in that, you'll get it on forms, won't you?"},{"speaker":"You know, the form says, you know- Scott Rae","startTime":689.605,"endTime":691.316,"body":"Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":691.326,"endTime":696.115,"body":"... Gender. They re- wanting to know if you're male or"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":691.326,"endTime":696.115,"body":"female. But,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":697.676,"endTime":702.676,"body":"in the '50s and '60s and '70s, as we all may recall,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":703.676,"endTime":708.655,"body":"gender became a way of talking about the kind of social expectations and,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":709.535,"endTime":715.696,"body":"and social roles that men and women, were expected to occupy."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":716.456,"endTime":720.408,"body":"And of course, second wave feminism was challenging that and saying, \"Well, just"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":720.408,"endTime":722.535,"body":"my biology is not my destiny. My-"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":723.076,"endTime":725.485,"body":"just because I'm female doesn't mean I have to be,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":726.655,"endTime":730.115,"body":"whatever, you know, the cook of the house or a housewife or,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":730.775,"endTime":734.481,"body":"or only take these roles and not those roles or do these jobs and not those"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":734.481,"endTime":735.176,"body":"jobs.\" So again,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":735.735,"endTime":744.183,"body":"socialAnd even the cultural expression of that in terms of clothing and hair and so on."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":745.203,"endTime":751.672,"body":"So that was in the 60s. Now then moving on from that, we've now come to think of"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":751.672,"endTime":756.703,"body":"gender in terms of gender identity, which is not the social but the psychological."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":757.124,"endTime":761.23,"body":"So that's why there's so much confusion. When someone says my gender is up to my"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":761.23,"endTime":765.244,"body":"sex, well, what do you mean? Are you, yeah."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":765.844,"endTime":770.844,"body":"Is this how you think about yourself or is it how you are dressing yourself or what?"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":771.303,"endTime":775.224,"body":"Now, in my book, as you will no doubt recall having read it,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":776.024,"endTime":778.504,"body":"I have run with a model which"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":780.144,"endTime":783.984,"body":"to me at least makes reasonable sense, which is to see gender a bit like a folder"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":783.984,"endTime":786.244,"body":"on your computer that when you double click on it,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":786.864,"endTime":793.474,"body":"inside it has the social and the psychological files. So sex, your body,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":794.163,"endTime":799.396,"body":"gender, your psychosocial extension of that, your expression of that, your"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":799.396,"endTime":800.823,"body":"perception of that."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":802.563,"endTime":810.624,"body":"So that's how I've presented it in the book. And what I've argued is that biblically we"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":802.563,"endTime":810.624,"body":"have a"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":812.884,"endTime":819.163,"body":"task to express our sex through our gender in a way that is faithful to our sex,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":820.104,"endTime":821.403,"body":"not contrary to our sex."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":822.443,"endTime":829.339,"body":"So in the way I think about myself and the way I present myself, I should be thinking"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":829.339,"endTime":835.851,"body":"rightly about my sex and living out my sex in a way that's readable to others rather"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":835.851,"endTime":837.384,"body":"than confusing to others."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":838.744,"endTime":840.764,"body":"We're stewards of our sex in that sense,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":841.484,"endTime":848.869,"body":"but we present our sex to the world through our gender and we think about our"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":848.869,"endTime":853.024,"body":"sex in ourselves according to the reality of it."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":853.053,"endTime":857.035,"body":"And I think that's the trick, right? Is that God's given us"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":857.035,"endTime":858.693,"body":"bodies, we're male and female,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":859.344,"endTime":865.374,"body":"but scripture doesn't really give us a lot of details or specificity what that looks like."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":866.283,"endTime":871.722,"body":"So we have to draw out, like you said, some of these cultural stereotypes from"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":871.722,"endTime":877.524,"body":"what it really means to be male and female and live consistently with our biological sex."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":878.323,"endTime":882.994,"body":"That's the challenge. And I'd love to circle back to that, but let's start with"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":882.994,"endTime":887.041,"body":"where you start in the book, which any conversation about sexuality and human"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":887.041,"endTime":889.844,"body":"nature begins, which is in Genesis 1 and 2."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":890.484,"endTime":894.604,"body":"And you've got extensive, this is an academic book. It's very readable,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":895.423,"endTime":901.723,"body":"but maybe if we go back to Genesis 1 or 2, what are just a couple of the most"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":901.723,"endTime":905.702,"body":"important takeaways that we learn there that contributes to our understanding of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":905.702,"endTime":909.504,"body":"what it means to be embodied creatures?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":905.702,"endTime":909.504,"body":"Robert S. Smith: Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":910.203,"endTime":914.724,"body":"Well, yes, I'd only intended to write one chapter on Genesis 1 and 2 and ended up"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":910.203,"endTime":914.724,"body":"writing three."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":914.884,"endTime":915.743,"body":"Good luck with that."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":916.183,"endTime":918.144,"body":"And I could have written more."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":916.183,"endTime":918.144,"body":"Sean McDowell: Sure."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":918.443,"endTime":919.644,"body":"Moses made it in two."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":921.984,"endTime":925.344,"body":"Yes, well said, well said. Okay, well, let me make some brief points."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":926.024,"endTime":927.803,"body":"Well, firstly, in Genesis 1,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":928.504,"endTime":933.031,"body":"after being told that humanity's been made in the image of God, the very next thing"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":933.031,"endTime":936.144,"body":"we're told is that we come in one of two forms,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":936.844,"endTime":938.984,"body":"sexed forms, male or female."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":940.024,"endTime":943.283,"body":"And so we are sexually dimorphic, to use the technical language."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":943.803,"endTime":946.894,"body":"Sex for humans, like for many animals, is binary,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":948.423,"endTime":953.524,"body":"which is, again, not to say there aren't some confusions that have crept in after"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":953.524,"endTime":956.244,"body":"the fall, but there's still only two sexes."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":956.683,"endTime":960.524,"body":"And interestingly, these are embodied terms, right?"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":960.903,"endTime":967.624,"body":"To be a male, to be a female is to have a certain type of body. So God has made us"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":967.624,"endTime":969.864,"body":"embodied and he's given us sexed bodies."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":970.943,"endTime":975.507,"body":"And part of the purpose of that, not the only purpose, but part of the purpose is"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":975.507,"endTime":980.071,"body":"revealed in the very next verse 28 of Genesis 1, that we are to be fruitful"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":980.071,"endTime":983.024,"body":"and multiply. And so obviously our sexual difference allows for that."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":984.163,"endTime":989.464,"body":"And again, as two bodies come together, they create more bodies."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":989.783,"endTime":992.864,"body":"So embodiment's right in the center of the picture from the get-go."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":993.344,"endTime":996.984,"body":"Now, coming into Genesis 2, we get a different account, although I think it's"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":996.984,"endTime":999.063,"body":"really just a zooming in, as it were."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1000.024,"endTime":1004.078,"body":"Camera comes in close to that whole process of the creation of male and"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1004.078,"endTime":1007.264,"body":"female, or as the language of chapter 2, man and woman."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1008.043,"endTime":1013.964,"body":"And what we see firstly is that God forms the body of the man,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1015.183,"endTime":1019.65,"body":"even before he breathes into him the breath of life. And so he's already a man"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1019.65,"endTime":1021.604,"body":"due to the form of his body,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1022.344,"endTime":1024.844,"body":"even before he's a living man."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1026.044,"endTime":1031.704,"body":"And then likewise, God forms the woman, or literally builds the woman out of part of"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1031.704,"endTime":1037.365,"body":"the side of the man and gives her a different body, because what he needs is"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1037.365,"endTime":1040.903,"body":"not a replica of himself. He needs a like opposite,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1041.544,"endTime":1045.763,"body":"that lovely expression there in the Hebrew, an ezer konego, a helper like opposite."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1046.884,"endTime":1050.483,"body":"And so he needs one who's like him in sex, but opposite him."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1050.743,"endTime":1055.243,"body":"Sorry, like him in humanity, opposite him in sex. And that's what he gets."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1055.864,"endTime":1057.223,"body":"And that's why he's so excited."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1058.223,"endTime":1062.999,"body":"She shall be called woman, for she was taken from man. So she is bone of his"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1062.999,"endTime":1064.403,"body":"bone, flesh of his flesh,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1065.243,"endTime":1067.263,"body":"and yet a sexual complement."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1068.304,"endTime":1072.624,"body":"And again, this is all embodiment there. So we have a link there between the male"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1072.624,"endTime":1075.864,"body":"and female of Genesis 1, the man and woman of Genesis 2."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1076.523,"endTime":1081.654,"body":"And well, if we need any confirmation as to how those line up, Jesus certainly"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1081.654,"endTime":1087.469,"body":"gives it to us, doesn't he, in Matthew 19, where he mashes up those two texts of"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1087.469,"endTime":1089.864,"body":"Genesis 1.27 and Genesis 2.24 and says,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1090.544,"endTime":1092.463,"body":"from the beginning, God made them male and female."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1092.683,"endTime":1097.463,"body":"For this reason, a man shall leave his father and mother, be joined to his woman,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1092.683,"endTime":1097.463,"body":"his wife,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1098.023,"endTime":1100.236,"body":"and the two will become one.flesh."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1101.375,"endTime":1107.08,"body":"And so that tells you, to use the modern language, that sex and gender i-in God's"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1107.08,"endTime":1109.576,"body":"design go together. They, they line up."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1110.236,"endTime":1114.395,"body":"If you're male, you grow to be a man. If you're female, you grow to be a woman."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1115.736,"endTime":1119.855,"body":"And, and so that plays out, you know. Husband, wife, father, mother,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1120.355,"endTime":1121.976,"body":"son, daughter, and on and on."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1123.115,"endTime":1127.513,"body":"Th-these are all fundamentally embodied terms that have to do with what sex God"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1127.513,"endTime":1128.455,"body":"has made us."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1129.375,"endTime":1131.516,"body":"So there you go. There's, there's a few insights from the opening."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1131.546,"endTime":1132.164,"body":"That's great. Really key ones."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1132.164,"endTime":1136.046,"body":"Yeah, that's really helpful. Let me follow up, Robert, on the, on the,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1136.796,"endTime":1140.155,"body":"when you... The conversation about a woman trapped in a man's body."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1140.955,"endTime":1143.715,"body":"I take it from there, you, in your view, it is not,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1144.615,"endTime":1149.991,"body":"it is not possible ontologically to be that kind of mismatch between the soul and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1149.991,"endTime":1156.084,"body":"the body. But would you say is the soul sexed, or is that something that is just"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1156.084,"endTime":1157.875,"body":"only reserved for the body?"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1158.476,"endTime":1164.036,"body":"Yeah, look, that's a, that's, a hard question to answer,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1158.476,"endTime":1164.036,"body":"[laughs] uh-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1164.086,"endTime":1164.205,"body":"[laughs] I agree"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1164.205,"endTime":1168.157,"body":"... I think. Yeah, I think fundamentally sex is a"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1168.157,"endTime":1169.145,"body":"characteristic of bodies."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1170.556,"endTime":1175.111,"body":"But because we are our bodies, then we are sexed persons. I'm not just..."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1175.111,"endTime":1181.816,"body":"I'm not a person with a sexed body. I'm a sexed person."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1175.111,"endTime":1181.816,"body":"And so,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1182.455,"endTime":1186.127,"body":"yeah, in as... If our souls are sexed, they are sexed, I think, fundamentally"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1186.127,"endTime":1187.175,"body":"because of our bodies."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1189.935,"endTime":1193.455,"body":"R- They're certainly not sexed independently of our bodies because I"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1193.455,"endTime":1197.855,"body":"don't think there is any independence in the way scripture presents sort of human"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1193.455,"endTime":1197.855,"body":"constitution."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1199.576,"endTime":1202.096,"body":"Now, what is interesting to ponder is w- you know,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1202.655,"endTime":1208.976,"body":"what happens at death when there is a separation of soul and body, and clearly"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1202.655,"endTime":1208.976,"body":"the,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1209.875,"endTime":1213.395,"body":"the person continues to, as it were,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1213.955,"endTime":1218.576,"body":"be the male or female person they were in this life. So, you know,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1219.415,"endTime":1220.536,"body":"if you think about Jesus,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1221.276,"endTime":1225.935,"body":"between death and resurrection, Jesus remains the man Christ Jesus."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1228.135,"endTime":1232.635,"body":"And then of course he's resurrected in... His male body is resurrected."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1233.155,"endTime":1239.728,"body":"So we don't lose our sex even i-i-in the so-called intermediate state, where"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1239.728,"endTime":1242.076,"body":"we are temporarily, without body."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1242.915,"endTime":1244.596,"body":"But clearly God's purpose is that we,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1245.556,"endTime":1251.395,"body":"we are an integral body-soul unity. A psychosomatic unity is the"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1245.556,"endTime":1251.395,"body":"technical language."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1252.355,"endTime":1256.748,"body":"And that will be the case, of course, in resurrection. So death is a kind of"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1256.748,"endTime":1258.816,"body":"anomaly. It's an interruption to the norm."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1260.155,"endTime":1263.704,"body":"And so again, se- body and soul go together."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1265.076,"endTime":1269.844,"body":"And so yeah, I'm again happy to think about the soul as sexed, but perhaps sexed"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1269.844,"endTime":1271.036,"body":"via the body or,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1271.596,"endTime":1273.135,"body":"or in unity with the body."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1274.355,"endTime":1275.556,"body":"That's interesting. Uh-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1274.355,"endTime":1275.556,"body":"Scott Rae: That's helpful."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1275.756,"endTime":1279.327,"body":"Yeah, I think that's, that's right on. I agree it's a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1279.327,"endTime":1280.425,"body":"difficult question to land,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1281.056,"endTime":1283.016,"body":"but I could not land it better than that's for sure."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1283.855,"endTime":1287.816,"body":"Tell us what it means to be made in the image of God,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1288.435,"endTime":1293.635,"body":"and how our embodied natures and sexed bodies are an extension of being made in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1293.635,"endTime":1295.715,"body":"God's image. What does that mean?"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1296.655,"endTime":1300.236,"body":"You guys like to ask the easy questions, don't you?"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1296.655,"endTime":1300.236,"body":"[laughs] Sean McDowell: [laughs]"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1301.175,"endTime":1303.654,"body":"as you'll know, there's an ocean of literature on the"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1303.654,"endTime":1304.556,"body":"image of God and,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1305.516,"endTime":1311.336,"body":"and many different, thoughts about it. I do think fundamentally,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1312.135,"endTime":1315.855,"body":"to be God's image i-i-in scripture is to be God's children."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1316.655,"endTime":1319.375,"body":"I mean, I suppose you might even say first and foremost, it's simply to be human."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1320.036,"endTime":1323.215,"body":"To be the image of God is to be human. To be human is to be the image of God."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1324.576,"endTime":1325.796,"body":"But what is it to be human?"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1326.276,"endTime":1328.935,"body":"I do think Genesis 5 gives us a bit of a clue when it,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1330.336,"endTime":1333.435,"body":"links, Seth as the s- as the image of Adam and so on."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1335.256,"endTime":1339.756,"body":"So I do think to be God's image is to be God's children, and therefore we are"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1335.256,"endTime":1339.756,"body":"to,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1340.455,"endTime":1343.536,"body":"represent Him. We are to rule under Him."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1344.736,"endTime":1347.736,"body":"And again, all of those things require bodies."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1348.776,"endTime":1354.036,"body":"We are certainly physical representations of God, and we rule a physical"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1348.776,"endTime":1354.036,"body":"world,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1355.135,"endTime":1359.374,"body":"with our physical bodies. But we do so as God's children."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1359.374,"endTime":1360.915,"body":"Now, that I think,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1361.596,"endTime":1365.664,"body":"leads you straight into, biblically, to understanding the ultimate image of"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1365.664,"endTime":1368.715,"body":"God, who is the Lord Jesus,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1369.336,"endTime":1375.006,"body":"who is the eternal Son of God, and so, you know, the child of God par excellence, you"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1369.336,"endTime":1375.006,"body":"might say."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1376.355,"endTime":1380.576,"body":"And of course, our ultimate destiny, which is to be conformed to His image,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1381.756,"endTime":1385.381,"body":"so that we become perfect sons and daughters of God in Christ's likeness."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1385.381,"endTime":1389.842,"body":"And, and so I do think scripture links all of these things up very profoundly."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1389.842,"endTime":1394.304,"body":"And of course, it's why Jesus comes and takes on our humanity, that as the, you"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1394.304,"endTime":1396.256,"body":"might say, the eternal image of God,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1396.796,"endTime":1399.516,"body":"He becomes the incarnate image of God, that,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1400.316,"endTime":1404.583,"body":"that we might again be conformed to Him as the God man, in that way."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1404.583,"endTime":1411.036,"body":"Now, there was another part to your question. I think I've lost it somewhere there, Sean."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1404.583,"endTime":1411.036,"body":"Um- Sean McDowell: Yeah."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1411.256,"endTime":1417.266,"body":"I was just curious about what you meant by being made in God's image and how that"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1417.266,"endTime":1422.286,"body":"contributes to our discussion about gender in response to kind of transgender theory."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1417.266,"endTime":1422.286,"body":"Just making- Robert S. Smith: Yes"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1422.286,"endTime":1423.605,"body":"... Those connections is really good."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1423.645,"endTime":1425.155,"body":"Yes. Okay. Yeah, yeah."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1425.715,"endTime":1430.731,"body":"Well, again, I think it does, it does highlight the physicality factor- ..."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1430.731,"endTime":1436.415,"body":"The embodiment factor. But if I can come back to the Christological end"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1430.731,"endTime":1436.415,"body":"of that,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1437.756,"endTime":1441.816,"body":"again, Jesus is a man. He's a man because he has a male body."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1443.175,"endTime":1446.655,"body":"Now of course the coming Messiah was always prophesied to be male,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1447.576,"endTime":1450.115,"body":"you know, a son, a king."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1451.816,"endTime":1455.756,"body":"But of course he is in eternity the eternal Son who therefore becomes,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1456.935,"endTime":1461.276,"body":"the man Christ Jesus. And so again, there's no disconnect there"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1456.935,"endTime":1461.276,"body":"between,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1462.296,"endTime":1466.804,"body":"soul and body. Um-in the Lord Jesus. And, it's quite-- the scripture's quite,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1466.804,"endTime":1470.271,"body":"you know, explicit. You know, He was circumcised, for example."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1471.951,"endTime":1475.872,"body":"So he doesn't just identify as a man. He has a male body."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1476.132,"endTime":1481.741,"body":"And that body which lived, which died, which, was buried,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1482.531,"endTime":1486.811,"body":"which rose again, which is ascended into heaven, which will come again in glory,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1487.451,"endTime":1489.112,"body":"that's the same body all the way through."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1489.791,"endTime":1493.925,"body":"I think Todd Wilson puts it brilliantly when he says, \"Jesus will always"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1493.925,"endTime":1495.402,"body":"be a circumcised Jewish male.\""},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1497.071,"endTime":1501.8,"body":"he hasn't got a different body to the one that, was conceived in the womb of Mary."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1501.8,"endTime":1504.582,"body":"It's, it's the same male body all the way through,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1505.352,"endTime":1507.632,"body":"you know, well, forever."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1508.971,"endTime":1512.672,"body":"And that's instructive, I think, to us. That tells us,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1513.172,"endTime":1515.031,"body":"not only that we will be raised,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1515.791,"endTime":1520.908,"body":"embodied as He was raised embodied, but the sex of our bodies will be what it is"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1520.908,"endTime":1521.811,"body":"in his world,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1522.412,"endTime":1527.551,"body":"i-in the world to come, just as his sex body remains male forever."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1528.672,"endTime":1532.143,"body":"So I've got a last question for you, and i- your book is so exhaustive."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1532.143,"endTime":1537.234,"body":"I used it, and I mean that in a good sense. I used it with my students in a class I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1537.234,"endTime":1538.392,"body":"taught this fall on apologetics,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1539.231,"endTime":1542.451,"body":"and it's got over 350 pages in here."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1543.092,"endTime":1548.461,"body":"But there's one question I did wanna ask you about, what you call this transgender"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1543.092,"endTime":1548.461,"body":"temptation."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1549.071,"endTime":1550.682,"body":"And there's so much behind this-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1549.071,"endTime":1550.682,"body":"Robert S. Smith: Okay"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1550.682,"endTime":1554.496,"body":"... But maybe just highlight the key points of what these"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1554.496,"endTime":1559.352,"body":"stages are and what scripture calls us to resist in terms of this temptation."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1559.872,"endTime":1562.947,"body":"Yeah. Well, yes, this occurred to me while I was in the course"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1562.947,"endTime":1566.496,"body":"of writing that, particularly as I was reflecting on Genesis 3 and the pattern of"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1566.496,"endTime":1570.519,"body":"temptation, which I do think is kind of paradigmatic in, you might say, for all of"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1570.519,"endTime":1572.412,"body":"our temptations at some level, that we,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1575.511,"endTime":1580.531,"body":"you know, God's word is questioned, the goodness of God's intentions questioned."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1580.731,"endTime":1584.352,"body":"And, well, I suppose he... Let me run through a scenario here."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1584.571,"endTime":1590.192,"body":"So here's a person who, you know, is not comfortable with their body."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1591.571,"endTime":1595.152,"body":"Now again, there could be 100 reasons for that."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1591.571,"endTime":1595.152,"body":"Sean McDowell: Sure."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1596.011,"endTime":1598.291,"body":"Or a whole combination of reasons that,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1599.372,"endTime":1603.172,"body":"But they read in scripture that, okay, God made us male and female. They pick up some"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1603.172,"endTime":1606.971,"body":"of the things we've been talking about, that our task is to live consistently with"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1603.172,"endTime":1606.971,"body":"our sex."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1609.711,"endTime":1613.743,"body":"But, you know, someone comes along and says, \"Oh, no. Did God really"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1613.743,"endTime":1616.432,"body":"say?\" [chuckles] is that really what scripture is requiring? And,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1617.491,"endTime":1621.186,"body":"there are, as you know, there are plenty of voices out there who are, who are"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1621.186,"endTime":1622.571,"body":"asking that question and casting doubt,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1623.652,"endTime":1625.771,"body":"upon the sex and gender connection, as I call it."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1627.751,"endTime":1632.051,"body":"Or there may be the, other side to that temptation, where does God really know,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1633.291,"endTime":1636.761,"body":"you know, does He really understand you? Has He made a mistake?"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1638.471,"endTime":1641.211,"body":"Are His intentions good? Can I trust Him?"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1642.352,"endTime":1646.632,"body":"Maybe I need to take matters into my own hands and change my body or,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1648.471,"endTime":1653.125,"body":"you know, live otherwise than scripture would be suggesting. So, so all the same"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1653.125,"endTime":1655.451,"body":"scenario is being played out right there."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1656.912,"endTime":1661.491,"body":"So what do we do with that temptation? W-whose voice do we listen to,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1662.932,"endTime":1663.551,"body":"and so on."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1664.051,"endTime":1668.102,"body":"And so this is the place where, a-again, having spent many hours with many people"},{"speaker":"talking about these things- Sean McDowell","startTime":1668.102,"endTime":1669.451,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"talking about these things- Sean McDowell","startTime":1668.102,"endTime":1669.451,"body":"Robert S. Smith: ..."},{"speaker":"talking about these things- Sean McDowell","startTime":1670.311,"endTime":1677.311,"body":"Many get to, a-a-and they feel profoundly tempted to take some action,"},{"speaker":"talking about these things- Sean McDowell","startTime":1678.821,"endTime":1682.721,"body":"now a-again, it may be minimal, may just be in, maybe in the realm of social"},{"speaker":"talking about these things- Sean McDowell","startTime":1682.721,"endTime":1684.672,"body":"transitioning, or it may be maximal in the,"},{"speaker":"talking about these things- Sean McDowell","startTime":1685.231,"endTime":1687.852,"body":"i-in the form of surgical transitioning, to take some action,"},{"speaker":"talking about these things- Sean McDowell","startTime":1689.051,"endTime":1693.652,"body":"that effectively is succumbing to that temptation, that God,"},{"speaker":"talking about these things- Sean McDowell","startTime":1694.971,"endTime":1698.811,"body":"God can't be trusted or He's, or perhaps I've misunderstood His word or,"},{"speaker":"talking about these things- Sean McDowell","startTime":1699.731,"endTime":1705.478,"body":"you know. So I guess the ministry that I and others are trying to do with"},{"speaker":"talking about these things- Sean McDowell","startTime":1705.478,"endTime":1710.21,"body":"people is to help them see through that, [chuckles] to realize the goodness of"},{"speaker":"talking about these things- Sean McDowell","startTime":1710.21,"endTime":1714.604,"body":"their bodies, not to, not to deny or minimize whatever struggles they're having"},{"speaker":"talking about these things- Sean McDowell","startTime":1714.604,"endTime":1718.998,"body":"with their bodies or... But to realize that whatever those problems are,"},{"speaker":"talking about these things- Sean McDowell","startTime":1718.998,"endTime":1721.701,"body":"it's not because they're in the wrong body."},{"speaker":"talking about these things- Sean McDowell","startTime":1722.652,"endTime":1725.352,"body":"That, and changing the body is not gonna solve the problems."},{"speaker":"talking about these things- Sean McDowell","startTime":1726.811,"endTime":1730.5,"body":"A-and so we need to work out what the real issues are and,"},{"speaker":"talking about these things- Sean McDowell","startTime":1731.451,"endTime":1736.424,"body":"well, find the right solution, which i-it will in the end be going with the grain of"},{"speaker":"talking about these things- Sean McDowell","startTime":1736.424,"endTime":1737.301,"body":"creation and going,"},{"speaker":"talking about these things- Sean McDowell","startTime":1737.811,"endTime":1740.132,"body":"embracing the reality of the gift God has given,"},{"speaker":"talking about these things- Sean McDowell","startTime":1741.311,"endTime":1744.547,"body":"and as Oliver O'Donovan says it beautifully, he says, you know, learning"},{"speaker":"talking about these things- Sean McDowell","startTime":1744.547,"endTime":1748.592,"body":"to, learning to love it, even though it may not come to us without difficulties."},{"speaker":"talking about these things- Sean McDowell","startTime":1749.612,"endTime":1753.047,"body":"And that can be a lifelong lesson, right, for some, learning to love their body."},{"speaker":"talking about these things- Sean McDowell","startTime":1753.047,"endTime":1754.192,"body":"I mean, all of us,"},{"speaker":"talking about these things- Sean McDowell","startTime":1755.132,"endTime":1758.282,"body":"we won't go into confessional territory n-right now, but all of us have [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"talking about these things- Sean McDowell","startTime":1758.282,"endTime":1759.701,"body":"got issues with our bodies, right?"},{"speaker":"talking about these things- Sean McDowell","startTime":1758.282,"endTime":1759.701,"body":"Sean McDowell: Sure."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1760.471,"endTime":1763.683,"body":"And the longer we live, the more they accumulate, but of"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1763.683,"endTime":1768.231,"body":"course some of us have much larger issues, you might say, with our sex"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1763.683,"endTime":1768.231,"body":"and,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1769.491,"endTime":1772.412,"body":"and, you know, again, that can be very painful."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1773.291,"endTime":1779.14,"body":"But the solution is not to try to, well, reject the gift that God gave and"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1779.14,"endTime":1780.172,"body":"reach for another,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1780.872,"endTime":1783.332,"body":"as again, they did in the garden, but rather to,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1783.872,"endTime":1786.932,"body":"to embrace the gift we've been given, r-to resist,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1787.571,"endTime":1792.132,"body":"resist the snake oil, as it were, that's on offer, and,"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1793.372,"endTime":1797.551,"body":"take the medicine God provides, even though it may be a slow journey."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1799.471,"endTime":1803.738,"body":"Robert, I wanna make sure our audience picks up on not only the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1803.738,"endTime":1807.347,"body":"academic and intellectual and biblical response you're bringing here, but just"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1807.347,"endTime":1812.27,"body":"such a pastoral response to a number of these questions you've gone out of your"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1812.27,"endTime":1815.551,"body":"way to highlight. These are real individuals. People are suffering."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1816.132,"endTime":1821.657,"body":"Many did not choose to have these feelings. And so that pastoral side, to come"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1821.657,"endTime":1826.078,"body":"alongside such a thoughtful academic book that, again, is readableI think just"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1826.078,"endTime":1830.867,"body":"really bodes well. So really appreciate you coming on. You know, on this"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1830.867,"endTime":1835.656,"body":"temptation question, I feel like we could do a whole episode on this."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1835.656,"endTime":1840.813,"body":"And you're right, we all have issues with our bodies [chuckles] in different ways."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1840.813,"endTime":1845.234,"body":"We all have temptations. I've heard Rosaria Butterfield talk about the unique"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1845.234,"endTime":1847.786,"body":"temptation of transgender is envy."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1845.234,"endTime":1847.786,"body":"Robert S. Smith: Yes."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1847.836,"endTime":1853.022,"body":"To want something that's not mine and reject what God has given me"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1853.022,"endTime":1855.415,"body":"is at the root of it,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1855.976,"endTime":1857.056,"body":"and I think that's right."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1857.256,"endTime":1861.871,"body":"And of course, that's not to say individuals who experience this have sin"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1861.871,"endTime":1867.55,"body":"in their life in the way other people don't. That'd be ridiculous. We are all fallen,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1867.55,"endTime":1873.586,"body":"and it manifests itself in different ways. But I do think that is one of the root"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1873.586,"endTime":1877.556,"body":"temptations that individuals with gender dysphoria will really wrestle with."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1873.586,"endTime":1877.556,"body":"Uh-"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1877.895,"endTime":1880.865,"body":"Yeah. Yeah, I think that's right. I wrote about this"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1880.865,"endTime":1883.836,"body":"in my little book called, How Should We Think About Gender and Identity?"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1884.165,"endTime":1889.935,"body":"That, that covetousness is, which again, another word for envy, really-"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1884.165,"endTime":1889.935,"body":"Sean McDowell: Sure"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1889.976,"endTime":1890.516,"body":"... In this context."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1891.175,"endTime":1897.016,"body":"Yeah, covetousness is i-i-is the sin, that many wrestle with."},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1897.715,"endTime":1902.546,"body":"But again, yeah, behind that i-i-it does beg the question of why. Why, why is"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1902.546,"endTime":1904.056,"body":"a person coveting another body?"},{"speaker":"Robert S. Smith","startTime":1904.576,"endTime":1905.775,"body":"Anyway, I interrupted you. I'm sorry."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1905.855,"endTime":1908.635,"body":"No, that's good. I appreciate you clarifying."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1905.855,"endTime":1908.635,"body":"Good stuff."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1909.195,"endTime":1914.558,"body":"I wanna commend to our listeners your book is called The Body God Gives, which I"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1914.558,"endTime":1919.585,"body":"love, by the way. It's memorable, it's short, it indicates that the body is a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1919.585,"endTime":1924.948,"body":"gift, and it... God is the source of it, and that's at the root, amongst other"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1924.948,"endTime":1929.64,"body":"things, of our identity. It's called The Body God Gives- A Biblical Response to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1929.64,"endTime":1930.645,"body":"Transger- Gender Theory."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1931.076,"endTime":1935.462,"body":"Again, my go-to book of its kind, but this is not n-nighttime easy reading."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1935.462,"endTime":1936.715,"body":"It's an academic book,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1937.215,"endTime":1941.15,"body":"very readable to non-academics. But if you wanna get into what transgender"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1941.15,"endTime":1946.395,"body":"theory is and a deep biblical response to it, you will not find a better text."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1946.996,"endTime":1950.955,"body":"Really enjoyed this. Thanks for coming on, and thanks for your time."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1946.996,"endTime":1950.955,"body":"Robert S. Smith: My pleasure."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1951.615,"endTime":1955.459,"body":"This has been an episode of the podcast Think Biblically-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1955.459,"endTime":1959.303,"body":"Conversations on Faith and Culture. We've got... We have programs."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1959.303,"endTime":1965.837,"body":"We'd love to have you come study with us at Talbot School of Theology in person in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1965.837,"endTime":1969.681,"body":"Southern California or online in our Masters in Christian Apologetics,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1969.681,"endTime":1974.294,"body":"Spiritual Formation, Bible Theology, and so much more. Please, submit your comments"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1974.294,"endTime":1976.215,"body":"and your questions to us."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1976.895,"endTime":1980.415,"body":"Our email is thinkbiblically@biola.edu."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1980.855,"endTime":1984.772,"body":"If you enjoyed today's conversation, we'd be honored if you'd take a minute to give"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1984.772,"endTime":1988.428,"body":"us a rating on your podcast app or consider sharing this with a friend."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1988.428,"endTime":1990.256,"body":"Seriously, every rating and every sharing helps."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1990.796,"endTime":1995.739,"body":"Remember to join us Friday with our weekly cultural update. Thanks for listening, and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1995.739,"endTime":2005.215,"body":"remember, think biblically about everything."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1995.739,"endTime":2005.215,"body":"[outro music]"}]}