{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":0.1,"endTime":5.148,"body":"[upbeat music] The book we are going to discuss today is one of the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":5.148,"endTime":9.419,"body":"most disturbing and heartbreaking accounts I've read in a long time."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":10.099,"endTime":13.619,"body":"Listen or watch before you have kids present."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":14.0,"endTime":19.786,"body":"Why? Well, we're gonna talk about a book called Pornocracy, and what's unique about"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":19.786,"endTime":26.399,"body":"it is it's written from two UK writers from a secular perspective, a critique of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":19.786,"endTime":26.399,"body":"pornography,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":27.039,"endTime":32.181,"body":"arguing it's affected relationships, the brain, the law, and quite literally"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":32.181,"endTime":37.24,"body":"everyone and everything in society in some fashion."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":32.181,"endTime":37.24,"body":"Scott,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":38.38,"endTime":43.219,"body":"what's your general takeaway from reading this book before we get into some of the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":38.38,"endTime":43.219,"body":"particulars?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":43.32,"endTime":49.78,"body":"Well, Sean, honestly, I vacillated between being terrified and"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":43.32,"endTime":49.78,"body":"being nauseated."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":50.619,"endTime":53.579,"body":"Those were my two takeaway reactions."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":54.479,"endTime":59.166,"body":"And the-- what they're describing in this is not only the phenomenon of pornography,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":59.166,"endTime":61.32,"body":"but the industry behind it."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":59.166,"endTime":61.32,"body":"Sean McDowell: That's right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":61.82,"endTime":66.84,"body":"And the-- [chuckles] what a huge economic enterprise this is,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":67.62,"endTime":70.019,"body":"and how it's influenced the law,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":71.239,"endTime":76.973,"body":"how it's influenced the way our brains are wired, how it's influenced the way it"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":76.973,"endTime":78.12,"body":"affects our relationships,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":79.62,"endTime":83.099,"body":"and how it's impacted, for the most part,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":83.659,"endTime":87.84,"body":"hugely negatively the lives of the people who've been victimized by it."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":88.78,"endTime":95.292,"body":"I mean, it is a, it is a incredibly disturbing look at what some people still"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":95.292,"endTime":96.92,"body":"think is harmless entertainment."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":97.519,"endTime":103.301,"body":"And I-- Sean, you c- you can't, you just can't hold that view. That is just not a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":103.301,"endTime":105.549,"body":"plausible view of pornography after reading this."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":105.98,"endTime":111.582,"body":"I think that's really well said, because for a long time it was"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":111.582,"endTime":114.599,"body":"conservatives. Maybe it was, Protestants, Catholics, Evangelicals-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":114.78,"endTime":116.219,"body":"So-some would say Puritans."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":116.439,"endTime":120.322,"body":"Yeah, Puritans, from within a religious fold. But we've come full"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":120.322,"endTime":123.5,"body":"circle now, where you see in this book many,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":124.239,"endTime":129.229,"body":"in particular two secular writers and thinkers making some of the same kind of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":129.229,"endTime":135.288,"body":"critique that you and I and others have made. Now, what's not in this book is the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":135.288,"endTime":137.129,"body":"hopeful, positive vision of sexuality-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":135.288,"endTime":137.129,"body":"Scott Rae: Right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":137.129,"endTime":139.764,"body":"... Because God is totally absent. We'll come to that."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":139.764,"endTime":144.507,"body":"But as far as the critique, it was chilling. There was a few times I almost put the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":144.507,"endTime":148.46,"body":"book down and was like, \"Do I even wanna read this?\" And it's not salacious."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":148.9,"endTime":154.013,"body":"The reason is they're like, \"We're gonna give you a sense as best we can of the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":154.013,"endTime":157.321,"body":"ubiquity of pornography, the effects of pornography, the kinds of pornography.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":157.321,"endTime":161.833,"body":"And a couple times I stopped. I'm like, \"Not only do I not wanna watch"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":161.833,"endTime":164.389,"body":"this, I don't even want in my mind-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":161.833,"endTime":164.389,"body":"Scott Rae: That's exactly"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":164.389,"endTime":167.847,"body":"... And my brain what's happening.\" But I felt obligated to,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":167.847,"endTime":171.62,"body":"because I think many of us wanna pretend this issue's not there."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":172.319,"endTime":175.86,"body":"If they're right, and I suspect they're right about a lot of what they say,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":176.659,"endTime":177.78,"body":"we need to wake up."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":177.86,"endTime":182.298,"body":"So, Sean, what do you think is the main thesis of the book?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":182.298,"endTime":186.419,"body":"What's, what's the heart of this that the authors are really getting at?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":186.699,"endTime":191.68,"body":"So in 2006, there was a book written by a journalist by name of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":186.699,"endTime":191.68,"body":"Pamela Paul,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":192.24,"endTime":193.62,"body":"and she called it Pornified."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":194.139,"endTime":199.759,"body":"So in 2006, we're roughly a decade into pornography being available on the internet."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":200.109,"endTime":203.479,"body":"It's the start of social media. Obviously, there's no AI."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":204.039,"endTime":209.589,"body":"And a decade- ... Or so into this, she's saying pornography has infiltrated our society."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":209.589,"endTime":210.699,"body":"It's become pornified."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":211.479,"endTime":217.651,"body":"Pornocracy is playing off the term ocracy, like democracy or aristocracy, is that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":217.651,"endTime":220.5,"body":"it's not just a-affecting our culture,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":221.0,"endTime":226.001,"body":"it's actually shaping and directing our culture by certain power players in the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":226.001,"endTime":232.542,"body":"porn industry in a way we haven't seen in the past. So the-- they get-- they start"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":232.542,"endTime":237.159,"body":"off in the introduction by saying a pornocras- pornocracy, it's a noun."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":237.78,"endTime":240.259,"body":"It's a society in which political power,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":240.879,"endTime":246.031,"body":"culture, relationships, and identity are shaped or dominated by the purveyors of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":246.031,"endTime":253.33,"body":"pornography. So the new angle here is kind of this law and the, and the power, that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":253.33,"endTime":258.053,"body":"it's actually becoming not only normalized, but there's this kind of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":258.053,"endTime":260.199,"body":"top-down political power at play,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":260.8,"endTime":266.545,"body":"pushing this in the name of liberty and freedom in a way that they say is just"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":266.545,"endTime":267.56,"body":"wrecking our society."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":267.98,"endTime":269.389,"body":"Now, i-in some ways, we'll,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":269.939,"endTime":275.173,"body":"we'll, we'll come back to more of what that is, but let me read one thing that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":275.173,"endTime":279.482,"body":"they say here. She says, like, two of them say, \"Generations raised with smartphones"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":279.482,"endTime":281.329,"body":"have now viewed scenes of rape,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":282.199,"endTime":287.986,"body":"choking, and incest before experiencing their first real-life kiss.\" I mean, just"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":287.986,"endTime":290.879,"body":"how does that affect the brain?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":291.459,"endTime":293.339,"body":"How does that affect your expectations?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":294.199,"endTime":299.728,"body":"And some of the lines they say, I'm like, \"These are biblical critiques minus the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":299.728,"endTime":304.52,"body":"biblical theology.\" She says, \"Over nearly three decades, online porn has trained the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":304.52,"endTime":307.1,"body":"mind to see women not as persons,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":307.66,"endTime":312.18,"body":"but as costumes to be worn, roles to be assumed."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":312.91,"endTime":318.21,"body":"This dehumanization cuts deep.\" Exactly. And so here's the way in the intro..."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":318.21,"endTime":321.879,"body":"I'll just kinda read to frame this hopefully well."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":322.319,"endTime":323.759,"body":"They say, \"This is the pornocracy."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":324.399,"endTime":330.61,"body":"Ancient patriarchal scripts rebooted for the digital age. Spy cams,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":331.259,"endTime":334.538,"body":"nudifying apps,\" which you and I have talked about in our cultural update."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":334.639,"endTime":335.22,"body":"Just, just re- just recently."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":335.649,"endTime":340.87,"body":"\"The theft of intimate images have transformed every woman's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":340.87,"endTime":343.189,"body":"existence into sexual entertainment,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":343.759,"endTime":347.129,"body":"reducing her to a commodity to be traded."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":347.879,"endTime":353.519,"body":"Looming on the horizon is a future of relentless sexualized surveillance,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":354.04,"endTime":359.082,"body":"where women and girls are shut out from public life altogether. If we continue to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":359.082,"endTime":363.789,"body":"defend pornography as a matter of personal preference,\" and this is the autonomy that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":363.789,"endTime":369.84,"body":"you and I have talked about, \"the fate of women in the West may come out to resemble"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":369.84,"endTime":374.547,"body":"that of women living in theocracies.\"After all, our bodies are the same the world"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":374.547,"endTime":379.254,"body":"over, and the misogyny knows no borders. So not only is this a critique,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":379.843,"endTime":385.194,"body":"it's kind of a, like a secular prophetic book about how these changes in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":385.194,"endTime":390.544,"body":"technology will lead us when it comes to girls and women. Now, they're not saying"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":390.544,"endTime":392.684,"body":"pornography is only a male phenomenon."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":392.863,"endTime":396.644,"body":"And it, and it's, and it's not a, it's not a distinctly feminist critique"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":392.863,"endTime":396.644,"body":"either."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":396.923,"endTime":398.884,"body":"That's ... Yeah, that's correct. That's an important"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":396.923,"endTime":398.884,"body":"point."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":398.903,"endTime":400.913,"body":"Because, because ... Well, it is, because the authors, it's,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":400.913,"endTime":402.923,"body":"it's a man and a woman who are co-authoring this."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":403.043,"endTime":405.653,"body":"That's [laughs] exactly right, which is important, I think."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":406.363,"endTime":412.267,"body":"And so bottom line, they say, \"Perhaps the greatest victory in porn's relentless rise"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":412.267,"endTime":418.593,"body":"to power is how it has become normalized.\" And the word they use is respectable,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":419.124,"endTime":420.983,"body":"which even goes beyond a norm."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":421.884,"endTime":426.655,"body":"Shame has been inverted. Everywhere from schools to teachers, government guidance"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":426.655,"endTime":432.294,"body":"to fashionable dinner party conversations, those who criticize porn are sneered at as"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":432.294,"endTime":438.293,"body":"censorious, sex-negative or whore-phobic. And I say amen. It's about time"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":432.294,"endTime":438.293,"body":"conservative Christians- Scott Rae: Well, I-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":438.334,"endTime":439.584,"body":"... Are not the only ones saying this."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":439.764,"endTime":442.754,"body":"And I, and I'm happy, I'm happy to wear those labels."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":439.764,"endTime":442.754,"body":"Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":443.303,"endTime":447.453,"body":"Because I think, I think they're, they're absolutely right about"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":447.453,"endTime":449.113,"body":"how pervasive it's become,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":449.783,"endTime":455.352,"body":"and there's ... Sean, there's just, there's no way around this, and the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":455.352,"endTime":461.318,"body":"free expression argument starts to, starts to just sound a little hollow when you see"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":461.318,"endTime":467.283,"body":"all of the implications that they describe here. So let's, let's be clear about this."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":467.764,"endTime":474.163,"body":"How big an issue would you say this is today- ... As opposed to things like"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":467.764,"endTime":474.163,"body":"radical Islam,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":475.403,"endTime":478.944,"body":"artificial intelligence, Christian nationalism, critical theory."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":479.783,"endTime":483.903,"body":"You know, a lot of the stuff that we've talked about being big issues today,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":484.764,"endTime":490.025,"body":"w- I mean, maybe this is our bad, but we generally, and when we cite a list of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":490.025,"endTime":492.363,"body":"those issues, we've not included pornography in that."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":493.543,"endTime":495.973,"body":"And I think that's an oversight on our part. And this,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":496.824,"endTime":502.122,"body":"this book has definitely corrected that in my view. So where would you put it on the list?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":503.204,"endTime":506.225,"body":"So let me ... I'm gonna answer that, but let me just"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":506.225,"endTime":510.253,"body":"give a sense of how big it is. This, this book has some stats that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":510.253,"endTime":511.764,"body":"I think frame it for us."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":512.783,"endTime":513.854,"body":"So how big of an issue is this?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":513.854,"endTime":514.774,"body":"I knew, I knew the stat nerd-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":514.793,"endTime":515.344,"body":"Now, you knew it"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":515.354,"endTime":516.663,"body":"... Was gonna come out here at some point."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":516.703,"endTime":521.333,"body":"You knew it. You know me well by eight years and 500"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":516.703,"endTime":521.333,"body":"episodes. [laughs] Scott Rae: [laughs]"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":521.384,"endTime":525.565,"body":"So one study they cite, which they say is dated, that global"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":525.565,"endTime":528.004,"body":"revenues for porn is about 97 billion,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":528.543,"endTime":535.323,"body":"more than the GDP of most nations on Earth, most nations on Earth, its GDP."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":536.004,"endTime":541.973,"body":"So later in the book, they bring out and they say just how un- how normalized and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":541.973,"endTime":546.539,"body":"even unremarkable looking at porn is. They say the porn industry's value is"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":546.539,"endTime":547.943,"body":"double that of Hollywood."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":548.604,"endTime":549.604,"body":"It's double that."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":550.244,"endTime":555.611,"body":"In 2020, the world's four largest pornography sites received nearly 11"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":555.611,"endTime":557.563,"body":"billion visitors each month,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":558.203,"endTime":560.283,"body":"greater than the number of visitors to Amazon,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":560.783,"endTime":565.823,"body":"LinkedIn, Netflix, Zoom, and eBay combined."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":566.943,"endTime":571.525,"body":"Now, the biggest site of them which they name, and I'm not going to name the porn"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":571.525,"endTime":572.604,"body":"site on this podcast,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":573.144,"endTime":579.793,"body":"was named the third most, quote, \"socially impactful tech brand of the 21st century.\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":579.793,"endTime":584.543,"body":"Those numbers in some ways tell the story in itself."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":585.124,"endTime":590.721,"body":"Now, when we compare that to radical Islam and AI, like it's almost impossible to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":590.721,"endTime":596.692,"body":"really rank them, but in terms of a belief system that more people are"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":590.721,"endTime":596.692,"body":"embracing,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":597.224,"endTime":602.645,"body":"leading them away from Jesus, you can't think of something more than Islam because"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":602.645,"endTime":605.744,"body":"it's way more influential than Christian nationalism, than,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":606.964,"endTime":610.724,"body":"any other competing narrative, progressive Christianity,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":611.323,"endTime":614.004,"body":"fill in the blank. It's radical Islam."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":614.844,"endTime":617.884,"body":"But when it comes to how big of an issue it is,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":618.783,"endTime":624.863,"body":"it's hard for me to not place it in the top five and at least probably in the top"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":624.863,"endTime":629.663,"body":"three because I s- think it seeps into all these other issues that concern us."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":630.303,"endTime":633.183,"body":"So larger questions about LGBTQ,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":633.984,"endTime":639.423,"body":"clearly shaped in many ways by pornography. The divorce epidemic,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":640.193,"endTime":645.504,"body":"shaped by pornography. Self-image and depression and loneliness,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":646.063,"endTime":652.774,"body":"shaped by pornography. Social media, shaped by pornography. So it's not like-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":646.063,"endTime":652.774,"body":"Scott Rae: Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":652.783,"endTime":658.004,"body":"... A set of beliefs like, again, Christian nationalism or radical"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":652.783,"endTime":658.004,"body":"Islam,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":658.504,"endTime":663.803,"body":"but its underlying influence, I think it's within the top three."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":663.894,"endTime":664.094,"body":"And I, and I-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":664.094,"endTime":664.923,"body":"Now agree, disagree."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":665.183,"endTime":669.531,"body":"I, well, I'd add to that one notion that used to be controversial that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":669.531,"endTime":671.083,"body":"I don't think is anymore,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":671.624,"endTime":673.303,"body":"and that is violence against women-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":674.083,"endTime":677.663,"body":"... Has been shaped by pornography. Now, that used to be controversial,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":678.524,"endTime":684.964,"body":"and the pornography companies will vehemently deny that porn contributes to that."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":685.783,"endTime":690.303,"body":"But as we get into more of this, Sean, some of the stuff we ..."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":690.543,"endTime":693.783,"body":"I mean, we may have to be, we may have to use some euphemisms-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":694.283,"endTime":695.104,"body":"We will do our best"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":695.144,"endTime":696.813,"body":"... To describe, to describe some of this."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":695.144,"endTime":696.813,"body":"Sean McDowell: Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":696.823,"endTime":701.333,"body":"But I think it has radically changed the expectations- ..."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":701.333,"endTime":707.721,"body":"Particularly of people who have gr- sort of have grown up with some of, some of the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":707.721,"endTime":711.433,"body":"newer types of porn that has become incredibly popular."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":707.721,"endTime":711.433,"body":"Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":712.004,"endTime":716.543,"body":"And Sean, it raises, it just raises the virtue question for me."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":717.203,"endTime":722.231,"body":"And what does this say about us as a culture that we are justifying and we are"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":722.231,"endTime":726.962,"body":"so attracted to the, to these kinds of pornography that is ... And we'll get to,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":726.962,"endTime":729.624,"body":"we'll get to some of the details on this-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":729.693,"endTime":729.774,"body":"We will, yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":729.774,"endTime":733.413,"body":"... In a minute. I would put it right at number two-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":729.774,"endTime":733.413,"body":"Sean McDowell: Okay. Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":733.413,"endTime":736.663,"body":"... Behind radical Islam. I think that is-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":733.413,"endTime":736.663,"body":"Sean McDowell: Wow"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":736.744,"endTime":740.434,"body":"... That is, I think, still theThe main threat, and particularly in"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":740.434,"endTime":745.048,"body":"radical Islam, maybe not so much in the West, but clearly in the developing world."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":745.427,"endTime":749.465,"body":"You know, our folks who are on the mission field in, you know, the Middle East and,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":749.465,"endTime":751.128,"body":"and especially in pr- in Africa,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":751.768,"endTime":753.107,"body":"they will, they will tell us that,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":753.607,"endTime":757.368,"body":"the two things that they worry about most in their churches- ..."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":757.587,"endTime":760.847,"body":"Are Islam and the prosperity gospel."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":761.368,"endTime":762.008,"body":"Oh, that's interesting."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":762.028,"endTime":766.508,"body":"Those, those are the two most important issues that their people"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":766.508,"endTime":767.628,"body":"face regularly. Um-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":768.087,"endTime":772.071,"body":"And by the way, if I could qualify this, it's not just radical Islam."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":772.071,"endTime":775.77,"body":"If there's a belief system that more people believe leading them away from"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":775.77,"endTime":780.607,"body":"Jesus, it's any kind of Islam that denies the Trinity and the, and the deity of Jesus."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":781.248,"endTime":785.921,"body":"So for society, radical Islam in terms of a belief system that's leading more people"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":785.921,"endTime":789.347,"body":"away from Jesus, it's any version of Islam, I would say."},{"speaker":"But that's a separate conversation. Scott Rae","startTime":790.427,"endTime":792.217,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":792.227,"endTime":794.988,"body":"You put it number two, which is high and huge."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":795.868,"endTime":797.908,"body":"And I-- But before I read this, I wouldn't have."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":798.827,"endTime":799.658,"body":"Oh, wow. It really moved you."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":799.658,"endTime":802.559,"body":"I would, I would have pro- I would have put it, you know, somewhat"},{"speaker":"further down the list. Sean McDowell","startTime":802.559,"endTime":803.687,"body":"Okay."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":804.548,"endTime":810.268,"body":"But it's the, it's the new... So what's-- it's what's new in pornography"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":810.268,"endTime":813.347,"body":"that has gotten me to that point."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":814.168,"endTime":814.528,"body":"And you know what?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":814.888,"endTime":819.266,"body":"I don't know the answer to this, but I wonder how many social ills, like take"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":819.266,"endTime":820.087,"body":"issues like poverty,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":820.947,"endTime":823.087,"body":"so much driven by broken relationships."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":823.687,"endTime":827.288,"body":"How much of those broken relationships driven by pornography?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":827.988,"endTime":831.617,"body":"Sex trafficking, pornography. I don't know that anybody's really drawn"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":831.617,"endTime":838.512,"body":"this, but part of the point is that it has seeped into our society in so many ways we"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":838.512,"endTime":843.057,"body":"don't see, and hence is at least number three or number two-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":838.512,"endTime":843.057,"body":"Scott Rae: Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":843.128,"endTime":843.768,"body":"... On issues of concern."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":843.807,"endTime":845.687,"body":"And, and I th- yeah. And that's, I think that's precisely their"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":843.807,"endTime":845.687,"body":"point."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":845.748,"endTime":847.138,"body":"That's exactly what their point is."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":845.748,"endTime":847.138,"body":"Scott Rae: Precisely. Sean McDowell: Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":847.168,"endTime":847.268,"body":"So,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":848.268,"endTime":854.949,"body":"the chapter I thought that was the most impactful for me was the chapter, I think"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":854.949,"endTime":859.207,"body":"it's two or three, entitled \"Not Your Granddad's Porn.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":854.949,"endTime":859.207,"body":"Sean McDowell: Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":860.307,"endTime":864.886,"body":"So what has-- what do they describe as having changed from sort"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":864.886,"endTime":870.521,"body":"of the, you know, the Playboy magazines that you used to keep in your"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":870.521,"endTime":875.707,"body":"attic and, you know, the stuff that we used to call smut-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":870.521,"endTime":875.707,"body":"Sean McDowell: Right. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":875.717,"endTime":878.128,"body":"... Back, you know, 100 years ago-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":875.717,"endTime":878.128,"body":"Sean McDowell: Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":878.307,"endTime":880.437,"body":"... To what's,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":881.008,"endTime":885.327,"body":"what's being purveyed on the internet and social media today?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":885.707,"endTime":887.956,"body":"Yeah, this chapter was jarring, and I almost, I almost-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":888.008,"endTime":888.998,"body":"This, this was, this was a hard one to read for me"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":888.998,"endTime":893.364,"body":"... Yeah, I almost put it down. I was like, \"I don't even want this in my"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":893.364,"endTime":897.473,"body":"mind,\" to be completely honest with you. But the big ar- argument they make is that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":897.473,"endTime":899.528,"body":"the real triumph of the pornocracy is respectability."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":900.288,"endTime":902.827,"body":"And they say, for example, this is an example they give."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":903.187,"endTime":904.986,"body":"It's even assumed a role in politics."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":905.587,"endTime":911.358,"body":"Democrat groups campaigning in the 2024 US election paid for advertisements on"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":911.358,"endTime":916.648,"body":"pornography sites and warned that their opponents would restrict users' access."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":917.368,"endTime":922.298,"body":"Now, one thing they don't point out is they're not being political in this book,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":922.298,"endTime":926.9,"body":"is in the 224 Republican convention, there was an OnlyFans creator who presented and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":926.9,"endTime":930.187,"body":"spoke there. So this is not just one political party."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":930.567,"endTime":934.682,"body":"Now, whether it's more in one political party than the other, I have no idea, but"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":934.682,"endTime":937.768,"body":"their point is just that it's seeping into so many different areas."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":938.528,"endTime":940.988,"body":"Here's what they talk about, is they talk about how..."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":941.998,"endTime":945.014,"body":"[sighs] For example, they say, \"How do we square the claim,\" and this is back to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":945.014,"endTime":945.768,"body":"your point about virtue,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":946.538,"endTime":951.189,"body":"is that we're told it's wrong to shame people for using pornography."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":951.189,"endTime":957.003,"body":"It's a human right. And here's their question- How do we square these claims to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":957.003,"endTime":961.655,"body":"the fact that the world's most popular pornography platforms continue to host"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":961.655,"endTime":962.817,"body":"countless rape videos,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":963.368,"endTime":966.847,"body":"child sexual abuse material, and revenge porn?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":967.508,"endTime":972.442,"body":"That's just a fact. Now, we can pick on the people who are putting this on"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":972.442,"endTime":977.067,"body":"platforms, but they're putting it on there because people are watching it and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":972.442,"endTime":977.067,"body":"desiring it."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":977.528,"endTime":982.433,"body":"And so they point out three areas where they think this is not your granddad's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":982.433,"endTime":987.012,"body":"porn, and I'll do my best to frame this in a way that's respectable."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":987.012,"endTime":988.648,"body":"Number one is sexual violence."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":989.648,"endTime":995.207,"body":"So they talk about this 2023 Council for Equality of Women and Men,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":995.748,"endTime":1001.273,"body":"had rec- They reviewed millions of videos on the biggest international pornography"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1001.273,"endTime":1008.288,"body":"websites and found 90% featured verbal, physical, and sexual violence towards women."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1001.273,"endTime":1008.288,"body":"90%."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1009.248,"endTime":1014.836,"body":"I'm not gonna read the way that it describes them. It's so objectifying and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1014.836,"endTime":1019.227,"body":"dehumanizing and dealing with assault and sometimes torture commonly showing up."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1020.548,"endTime":1027.332,"body":"On another study of 150,000 videos in the UK, they found one in eight titles shown"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1027.332,"endTime":1031.996,"body":"to first-time visitors of mainstream porn sites describe sexual activity that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1031.996,"endTime":1033.268,"body":"constitutes sexual violence."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1034.147,"endTime":1038.858,"body":"So another estimate, between 35% and 45% of scenes include at least one act of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1038.858,"endTime":1040.428,"body":"aggression. And by the way,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1041.107,"endTime":1047.405,"body":"women were the target 97% of the time. So it's also teaching certain roles of men"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1047.405,"endTime":1050.948,"body":"and women and how to treat the opposite sex."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1051.548,"endTime":1055.307,"body":"So the first massive trend that's different, they say, from Playboy"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1051.548,"endTime":1055.307,"body":"[chuckles] Magazine,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1055.887,"endTime":1060.087,"body":"is sexual violence. The second one, I did not see this coming, Scott,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1060.788,"endTime":1068.171,"body":"is in 2018, an article in Esquire Magazine found that incest was the world's fastest"},{"speaker":"growing porn category. Now, that's- Scott Rae","startTime":1068.171,"endTime":1071.228,"body":"What?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1071.268,"endTime":1074.226,"body":"What? Do the math. Seven years ago. I don't know if these are"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1074.226,"endTime":1077.876,"body":"trends that come and go. I'm not tracking these trends. [chuckles] I really don't"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1074.226,"endTime":1077.876,"body":"want to. Scott Rae: Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1077.887,"endTime":1081.268,"body":"But they make the point that it's common-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1077.887,"endTime":1081.268,"body":"Scott Rae: Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1081.567,"endTime":1086.394,"body":"... And it's normalized, and what happens is we have this natural"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1086.394,"endTime":1088.807,"body":"ick factor to kind of incest,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1089.367,"endTime":1092.428,"body":"and that's broken down. And they say watching-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1089.367,"endTime":1092.428,"body":"Scott Rae: decreasingly."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1092.998,"endTime":1095.563,"body":"Decreasingly, exactly. Watching incest porn doesn't mean you"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1095.563,"endTime":1097.807,"body":"secretly want to sleep with your sister."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1098.188,"endTime":1103.07,"body":"What makes it compelling is the extremity itself, the thrill of cos- crossing"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1103.07,"endTime":1107.577,"body":"boundaries and violating taboos, which is the heart of what pornography does."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1108.127,"endTime":1113.552,"body":"And then the third one, which is no surprise, is the barely legal category of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1113.552,"endTime":1116.807,"body":"just thousands and thousands of videos titled barely legal,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1117.307,"endTime":1123.989,"body":"teen category-And the age in the US to be in a porn film is 18 years old, but all"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1123.989,"endTime":1128.912,"body":"these sites have just code words that people can search for barely legal."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1129.711,"endTime":1134.971,"body":"That's the shift, three things we've seen in pornography they point that is just"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1129.711,"endTime":1134.971,"body":"disturbing."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1135.491,"endTime":1138.291,"body":"Here's... I'd add a fourth to it."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1135.491,"endTime":1138.291,"body":"Sean McDowell: Do it."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1138.852,"endTime":1141.251,"body":"And they, it's just one line."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1143.632,"endTime":1153.791,"body":"And as the filmed torture of human beings remains largely free from legal censure."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1143.632,"endTime":1153.791,"body":"Choking, slapping,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1154.311,"endTime":1158.811,"body":"you know, var-various forms of what we typically have called sadomasochism,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1160.672,"endTime":1162.551,"body":"you know, are now, are now routine."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1163.392,"endTime":1170.028,"body":"And the danger in this, Sean, is that what struck me in this is that people who view"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1170.028,"endTime":1174.731,"body":"this from a young age start to expect that this is normal-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1170.028,"endTime":1174.731,"body":"Sean McDowell: That's right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1174.771,"endTime":1177.211,"body":"... In their, in their sexual relationships that they have."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1177.771,"endTime":1180.231,"body":"And the boys think it's, you know,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1180.852,"endTime":1184.692,"body":"everybody does this, and the girls think that this is what the boys want."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1185.932,"endTime":1191.762,"body":"And so we have, we have, we have what I would call, it's, it's created a category"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1191.762,"endTime":1192.791,"body":"of willing victims,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1194.291,"endTime":1196.672,"body":"which we've, which I don't think we've had much before."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1198.392,"endTime":1202.491,"body":"You know, we typically say, you know, rape victims, it's non-consensual."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1203.291,"endTime":1207.632,"body":"Well, I mean, it may, it may be bordering on that here."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1208.852,"endTime":1213.531,"body":"And so it's, it's, you can see where it's a little easier to see the justification"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1208.852,"endTime":1213.531,"body":"for that."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1213.791,"endTime":1220.692,"body":"If consent is our on- if autonomy and consent are our only moral values"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1213.791,"endTime":1220.692,"body":"governing this,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1221.811,"endTime":1224.592,"body":"then there's n- there's nothing to stop this."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1225.592,"endTime":1229.461,"body":"And we need, what we need is, I think what we have here is a,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1230.051,"endTime":1235.632,"body":"a little dash of utilitarian thinking- ... Or a little dash of the consequences that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1235.632,"endTime":1237.491,"body":"are being produced by this."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1238.132,"endTime":1240.342,"body":"And I, Sean, I think most people,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1240.961,"endTime":1246.718,"body":"I think today are not, they're not aware of these consequence- They're not aware of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1246.718,"endTime":1250.172,"body":"how normalized this kind of extreme behavior has become."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1250.961,"endTime":1254.872,"body":"And that's the dan- that is just this incredible danger."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1256.011,"endTime":1261.711,"body":"And I think, you know, y- I mean, I'm, I'm glad that I'm not raising a teenage girl today."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1263.132,"endTime":1267.551,"body":"And I'd be terrified if I was raising one in the UK from what they're describing."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1267.551,"endTime":1271.971,"body":"And that, and that, you know, the US is not, is, I don't think, any different than"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1271.971,"endTime":1273.531,"body":"what's taking place in the UK."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1273.692,"endTime":1277.792,"body":"I think that's true, but I wish they had drawn out more the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1277.792,"endTime":1282.771,"body":"bankruptcy of a consent sexual ethic, which is what people have said as long as"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1277.792,"endTime":1282.771,"body":"there's consent,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1283.561,"endTime":1288.289,"body":"then it's moral, and it's justified, and it's a matter of freedom."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1288.289,"endTime":1293.412,"body":"The point being, it leads to these most dehumanizing, degrading kind of scenes,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1293.951,"endTime":1299.011,"body":"and people that are watching this can't tell who's acting, can't tell if this is real."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1293.951,"endTime":1299.011,"body":"Scott Rae: Yeah."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1299.311,"endTime":1301.332,"body":"Shapes their brain, shapes their expectations-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1301.451,"endTime":1302.172,"body":"Yeah, and we should be-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1302.441,"endTime":1302.501,"body":"... And leads to that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1302.501,"endTime":1303.471,"body":"... I think we should be fair too,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1303.991,"endTime":1307.731,"body":"that there is a lot of this that is not consensual-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1303.991,"endTime":1307.731,"body":"Sean McDowell: That's right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1307.751,"endTime":1312.192,"body":"... Too. Some of this, what they call UGC, user-generated content-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1312.991,"endTime":1317.351,"body":"... Is often done surreptitiously and posted, and that's, that's the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1317.351,"endTime":1319.692,"body":"revenge porn that you're talking about."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1317.351,"endTime":1319.692,"body":"Sean McDowell: That's right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1319.791,"endTime":1322.652,"body":"Almost all of that is done non-consensually."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1323.432,"endTime":1328.751,"body":"And it challenges our cultural notion of freedom because this, of all things,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1329.432,"endTime":1333.811,"body":"is the k- is the epitome of the cultural notion of freedom to do whatever the heck"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1329.432,"endTime":1333.811,"body":"you want,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1334.571,"endTime":1337.491,"body":"instead of the freedom to do what you ought."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1339.092,"endTime":1341.852,"body":"And freedom g- that's constrained by virtue."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1342.251,"endTime":1345.451,"body":"This is freedom constrained by virtually nothing."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1346.632,"endTime":1351.592,"body":"And not even the law is constraining this- ... In a lot of the world."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1352.932,"endTime":1355.342,"body":"So that I think, it just gives,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1356.192,"endTime":1362.327,"body":"it gives, it points out the lie, I think, in the worldview that undergirds"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1362.327,"endTime":1365.011,"body":"the justification for this kind of pornography."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1365.192,"endTime":1370.217,"body":"So either you justify it, as some people do, and porn companies"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1370.217,"endTime":1372.311,"body":"increasingly say, \"We're monitoring this."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1372.731,"endTime":1377.45,"body":"It's a matter of freedom.\" Or they say, \"Oh yeah, there's a problem with this,\""},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1377.45,"endTime":1382.168,"body":"but then that shows the emptiness of the secular ethic and invites, are there norms"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1382.168,"endTime":1386.571,"body":"about how we should treat people? Is there a purpose for the human body?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1386.771,"endTime":1389.041,"body":"Is there a right and is there a wrong?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1386.771,"endTime":1389.041,"body":"Scott Rae: Well-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1389.152,"endTime":1390.142,"body":"Those are the only two choices you have."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1390.152,"endTime":1393.152,"body":"Well, those nor- those norms sort of seep out here."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1390.152,"endTime":1393.152,"body":"Sean McDowell: They do."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1393.251,"endTime":1394.811,"body":"They don't, they don't-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1393.251,"endTime":1394.811,"body":"Sean McDowell: Without justification-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1394.852,"endTime":1396.321,"body":"Yeah, they don't say it directly"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1396.33,"endTime":1397.571,"body":"... Academic justification."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1396.33,"endTime":1397.571,"body":"Scott Rae: But,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1398.071,"endTime":1402.872,"body":"you know, decrying sexual violence tells you something about their moral compass."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1398.071,"endTime":1402.872,"body":"Sean McDowell: That's right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1403.451,"endTime":1407.581,"body":"And, you know, they, you know, and, you know, being a rape victim tells"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1407.581,"endTime":1411.711,"body":"you s- you know, they're not in the business of justifying- ..."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1407.581,"endTime":1411.711,"body":"Sexual assault."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1412.852,"endTime":1416.102,"body":"And I still, I find it hard to believe,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1416.632,"endTime":1420.081,"body":"you know, as our colleague Bill Craig put it, \"S- anybody who tries to justify"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1420.081,"endTime":1421.852,"body":"sexual assault needs a therapist-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1420.081,"endTime":1421.852,"body":"Sean McDowell: Right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1421.862,"endTime":1423.511,"body":"... Not an argument.\""},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1421.862,"endTime":1423.511,"body":"Sean McDowell: That's right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1423.612,"endTime":1429.126,"body":"But I f- I still find, I'm having difficulty, Sean, swallowing the"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1429.126,"endTime":1434.181,"body":"notion that the porn companies are actually justifying these violent scenes"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1434.181,"endTime":1442.912,"body":"of rape, the, you know, choking of women in under the guise of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1434.181,"endTime":1442.912,"body":"sexual expression."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1443.471,"endTime":1447.658,"body":"You know, the way women, the way women are, they're, they're posted not"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1447.658,"endTime":1451.546,"body":"just, not just the victim of sexual assault, but they're posted physical assault."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1451.546,"endTime":1456.031,"body":"They're po- they're posted on these things with black eyes and cuts on their faces."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1456.051,"endTime":1460.832,"body":"And people are looking for those kind of images within-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1456.051,"endTime":1460.832,"body":"Scott Rae: Right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1460.951,"endTime":1462.892,"body":"... Women. And so he do-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1463.511,"endTime":1467.172,"body":"they do ask the question, how does this happen? And they're like, \"Not by accident."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1467.602,"endTime":1471.372,"body":"There was a plan here. It's driven by making money,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1471.991,"endTime":1475.201,"body":"but it's also controlled by men.\" The primary [chuckles] people-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1471.991,"endTime":1475.201,"body":"Scott Rae: That's right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1475.201,"endTime":1477.281,"body":"... Who are running these porn companies-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1475.201,"endTime":1477.281,"body":"Scott Rae: That's right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1477.281,"endTime":1478.231,"body":"... Are not women."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1478.731,"endTime":1483.902,"body":"It's men who get to see women treated the way they want to. They get money from"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1483.902,"endTime":1486.64,"body":"it-And the women are really the victims of this"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1487.099,"endTime":1490.344,"body":"But part of, part of the point they're making too is that women aren't"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1490.344,"endTime":1491.039,"body":"the only victims."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1491.099,"endTime":1492.109,"body":"That's correct. And-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1492.18,"endTime":1498.299,"body":"So I think it's fair to say that women are the main victims."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1492.18,"endTime":1498.299,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1498.599,"endTime":1502.589,"body":"Although I might, I might say children are the main victims- ... With this,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1503.18,"endTime":1504.96,"body":"but they're certainly not the only ones."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1505.48,"endTime":1511.009,"body":"And one of the things I think was so helpful in this is pointing out how men-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1505.48,"endTime":1511.009,"body":"Sean McDowell: That's right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1511.009,"endTime":1512.15,"body":"... Are victimized,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1513.039,"endTime":1517.42,"body":"I think probably in many, in many ca- if not most cases, without their knowledge."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1520.279,"endTime":1521.009,"body":"I agree with that. And I-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1521.019,"endTime":1521.619,"body":"So, so say a-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1521.819,"endTime":1521.829,"body":"Oh, go ahead"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1521.829,"endTime":1523.039,"body":"... Say a little bit more about-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1521.829,"endTime":1523.039,"body":"Sean McDowell: Yeah"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1523.059,"endTime":1524.5,"body":"... Who the, who the victims are here."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1524.579,"endTime":1528.256,"body":"So I'm glad, I'm glad you transitioned to this because we're so"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1528.256,"endTime":1531.319,"body":"affected by autonomy and freedoms to do what I want,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1531.819,"endTime":1536.039,"body":"there can be a temptation from Christians to say, \"Well, if somebody wants to be a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1531.819,"endTime":1536.039,"body":"porn star,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1536.68,"endTime":1540.319,"body":"they should have the right to do it. They made a choice.\" And I'd say-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1536.68,"endTime":1540.319,"body":"Scott Rae: sex work"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1540.5,"endTime":1544.14,"body":"... Yeah, exactly. That's [laughs] that's a fair way to put it."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1544.74,"endTime":1547.92,"body":"Known as a porn star is the language that's used for it."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1548.48,"endTime":1551.809,"body":"So yeah, somebody h- we have culpability for our choices,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1552.66,"endTime":1558.096,"body":"but we don't see behind the curtain at how much people are damaged by this."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1558.096,"endTime":1564.258,"body":"So in the book, on page 12, it says, \"In 2022, a group of 20 ex-porn performers"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1564.258,"endTime":1569.332,"body":"launched a campaign urging the industry to raise the minimum age of participants from"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1569.332,"endTime":1570.42,"body":"18 to 21."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1571.119,"endTime":1578.036,"body":"In an open letter, the women,\" so this is all women, \"listed a catalog of abusive"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1578.036,"endTime":1582.79,"body":"practices inflicted by agents, producers, and directors, including being made to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1582.79,"endTime":1584.519,"body":"enact sadistic pedophile fantasies,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1585.099,"endTime":1589.083,"body":"being rushed into signing consent forms, and being coerced into high-pressure"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1589.083,"endTime":1594.876,"body":"situations to do sex acts we've clearly said we will not do.\" That's a huge piece"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1594.876,"endTime":1598.859,"body":"of it here. Now, what really saddens me about this, Scott,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1599.72,"endTime":1602.88,"body":"is they said here, they said, \"Even before setting foot on a set,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1603.7,"endTime":1611.009,"body":"women in porn, and indeed the sex industry as a whole, are far more likely to have"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1611.009,"endTime":1614.878,"body":"experienced sexual abuse than the wider population.\" Now, they..."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1615.099,"endTime":1619.579,"body":"I'm not a psychologist, so I don't wanna speak out of my expertise here, but"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1619.579,"endTime":1623.5,"body":"they just kinda suggest here, 'cause part of it is like, why on earth,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1624.079,"endTime":1628.276,"body":"if somebody was sexually abused, would they go into an area like porn?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1628.276,"endTime":1632.796,"body":"Like, you'd think they'd run the opposite direction. And they say, \"A handful of"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1632.796,"endTime":1637.315,"body":"testimonies from survivors suggest that for some, viewing abuse is a way to make"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1637.315,"endTime":1642.157,"body":"sense of what's happened to them.\" So they quote somebody saying, a person who was"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1642.157,"endTime":1647.0,"body":"abused from age seven, \"I turned to porn to normalize what was happening to me."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1647.72,"endTime":1651.703,"body":"Every time I'd go on the internet, I'd search for porn rape scenes to try and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1651.703,"endTime":1655.686,"body":"convince myself that what was happening to me was okay. It reinforced in my mind that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1655.686,"endTime":1660.168,"body":"women were there to be used for sex, and at the end, they always seemed to be like"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1660.168,"endTime":1662.16,"body":"it anyways.\" So this girl from age seven,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1662.88,"endTime":1666.43,"body":"just horribly abused in the worst way imaginable,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1667.029,"endTime":1668.589,"body":"doesn't know how to make sense of it,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1669.279,"endTime":1673.119,"body":"and porn at least gave her a sense of, \"Oh, I'm not alone."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1673.549,"endTime":1678.834,"body":"This is normal.\" And it's people like this who were drawn into the porn industry."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1678.834,"endTime":1684.118,"body":"So yes, they make a choice, but they're absolutely victims as well, and these porn"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1684.118,"endTime":1690.819,"body":"producers are using them for money and for pleasure in the way that they describe in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1684.118,"endTime":1690.819,"body":"this book. Scott Rae: Let me-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1690.859,"endTime":1692.049,"body":"And I think it's just disgusting"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1692.059,"endTime":1696.819,"body":"... Before you leave that, it's a, it's a vicious cycle because take a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1692.059,"endTime":1696.819,"body":"step back."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1697.48,"endTime":1700.5,"body":"Where did, where do child sexual abusers,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1701.94,"endTime":1706.68,"body":"you know, what's their exposure to pornography that m- that leads them-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1706.98,"endTime":1707.319,"body":"There you go. There you go"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1707.359,"endTime":1709.44,"body":"... To abuse children?"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1707.359,"endTime":1709.44,"body":"Sean McDowell: Yep."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1709.559,"endTime":1710.849,"body":"I mean, overwhelmingly,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1711.4,"endTime":1714.586,"body":"there's that, there's that association. Now, granted, causation and correlation"},{"speaker":"are not the same thing. Sean McDowell","startTime":1714.586,"endTime":1716.579,"body":"Sure."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1717.079,"endTime":1722.814,"body":"But this produce... It produces that cycle that is a, that's a"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1722.814,"endTime":1725.019,"body":"really hard one to break."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1725.94,"endTime":1731.0,"body":"Because, you know, I mean, people who treat serial sexual abusers,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1733.019,"endTime":1737.836,"body":"they comment all the time about how difficult it is for them to break that"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1737.836,"endTime":1739.44,"body":"temptation. That's, that's a-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1737.836,"endTime":1739.44,"body":"Sean McDowell: That's right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1739.64,"endTime":1742.839,"body":"... That's a particularly difficult one- ... To break."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1743.16,"endTime":1746.67,"body":"That's, that's an addiction that is awfully tough to shake. Um-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1746.72,"endTime":1747.38,"body":"I think that's right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1747.579,"endTime":1752.07,"body":"... And which is why, you know, in the past, it motivated rather"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1752.07,"endTime":1755.92,"body":"radical solutions, which I don't think either of us would support."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1756.94,"endTime":1762.311,"body":"But I think they rec- they recognized from early on how difficult it is to break"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1762.311,"endTime":1763.259,"body":"out of that."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1763.9,"endTime":1768.859,"body":"And I think the reason why is the very next chapter is on the brain's"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1763.9,"endTime":1768.859,"body":"role."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1769.539,"endTime":1773.55,"body":"When I, when I speak on the effects of pornography, I talk how it affects our"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1773.55,"endTime":1777.059,"body":"minds and the script that we have about love and sex and treating people,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1777.619,"endTime":1781.079,"body":"but also physically affects our brain and rewires our brains."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1781.15,"endTime":1781.819,"body":"Right. Yeah, exactly."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1781.94,"endTime":1782.94,"body":"So they're talking about how when we..."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1783.21,"endTime":1786.485,"body":"And this story's been told a little bit. We've talked about this. Other books have"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1786.485,"endTime":1787.14,"body":"written on this."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1788.019,"endTime":1794.151,"body":"But they say, \"When we partake in substances or activity we enjoy, our brain"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1794.151,"endTime":1798.092,"body":"secretes an intoxicating cocktails of hormones and chemical neurotransmitters"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1798.092,"endTime":1802.91,"body":"that trigger a range of pleasurable sensations, from satisfaction to bliss."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1803.359,"endTime":1807.991,"body":"And when they're released,\" because it's a good feeling, \"we start creating pathways"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1807.991,"endTime":1809.059,"body":"in the brain,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1809.559,"endTime":1815.206,"body":"and then go back to those to feel well.\" It's natural to want to feel good."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1815.206,"endTime":1819.088,"body":"So they describe here, they say, \"Research- researchers have found the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1819.088,"endTime":1824.382,"body":"exact same kind of pathological learning in porn users as in drug addicts and in"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1824.382,"endTime":1826.5,"body":"alcoholics.\" It's the same brain mechanisms,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1827.039,"endTime":1829.359,"body":"same brain pathways that are involved here."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1830.42,"endTime":1832.74,"body":"What they write, though, which is interesting, I hadn't thought about this,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1833.299,"endTime":1837.74,"body":"\"Most worrying of all, and what makes it so much more pernicious than drugs or"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1837.74,"endTime":1840.7,"body":"alcohol, pornography use is perceived by the consumer,\" it's perceived,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1841.2,"endTime":1844.493,"body":"\"as a behavior with no punishment, only reward.\" So when someone's drinking,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1844.493,"endTime":1848.609,"body":"they're like, \"Well, if I have two, three, four more drinks, I'm gonna have a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1848.609,"endTime":1851.902,"body":"hangover.\" In your mind, you don't think you're gonna have a hangover."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1851.902,"endTime":1856.293,"body":"You're just gonna be fine the next day. So some of the inhibition that might keep"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1856.293,"endTime":1857.94,"body":"somebody from abusing that is gone."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1858.72,"endTime":1863.405,"body":"And then they describe how when it comes to, like-... Addictions with food, your"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1863.405,"endTime":1867.756,"body":"body can only have so much sugar and before you get physically sick."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1867.756,"endTime":1872.107,"body":"Internet pornography, which is processed by the brain as a high-value sexual"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1867.756,"endTime":1872.107,"body":"reward,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1872.688,"endTime":1875.548,"body":"is unconstrained by any limits."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1876.167,"endTime":1879.788,"body":"It's a never-ending procession of dishes."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1880.548,"endTime":1883.357,"body":"Now, with that, they ask a question. Go ahead."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1880.548,"endTime":1883.357,"body":"Scott Rae: Yeah. Sean McDowell: And then-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1883.448,"endTime":1889.564,"body":"Well, which like any other addiction, takes more and more of it"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1889.564,"endTime":1892.387,"body":"to get the same neurological effect."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1892.867,"endTime":1895.428,"body":"Okay, so yes, and let me say no."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1895.448,"endTime":1895.657,"body":"Go for it."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1895.667,"endTime":1898.528,"body":"Maybe we differ on this. Let me circle back to that."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1898.528,"endTime":1900.087,"body":"Hold that thought for a second."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1900.907,"endTime":1903.077,"body":"What they write here, they're asking a question. They say,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1904.127,"endTime":1911.788,"body":"do... Does looking at porn reflect desires, or does it create and shape new"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1904.127,"endTime":1911.788,"body":"desires?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1912.627,"endTime":1914.827,"body":"And they argue, and I think correctly,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1915.428,"endTime":1918.567,"body":"that what draws people to pornography, like in a drug,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1919.288,"endTime":1924.268,"body":"if you have a drug and you want the same high, you need a harder drug or greater"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1919.288,"endTime":1924.268,"body":"quantity."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1925.028,"endTime":1929.667,"body":"But when it comes to pornography, it's variety. That's what drives it."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1930.067,"endTime":1934.235,"body":"I need something different. I need a new experience. So somebody"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1934.235,"endTime":1939.917,"body":"starts being driven to look at different things that give them the same shock,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1934.235,"endTime":1939.917,"body":"high-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":1940.008,"endTime":1941.768,"body":"Stuff, yeah, stuff on the extremes."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1941.778,"endTime":1946.336,"body":"St- it moves increasingly up the scale of more and more"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1946.336,"endTime":1952.414,"body":"extreme, which is all available one click away. They say compulsive users are not only to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1952.414,"endTime":1956.213,"body":"seek greater quantity, but an ever-increasing variety of content, and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1956.213,"endTime":1961.531,"body":"this in turn shapes the brain. So they're not concerned about this in the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1961.531,"endTime":1966.849,"body":"book, and you and I would view this differently, but they say one relatively"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1966.849,"endTime":1971.028,"body":"benign example is for straight people to start consuming homosexual pornography."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1972.307,"endTime":1978.236,"body":"So if you're a man and you're looking at group sex, all of a sudden there's a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1978.236,"endTime":1983.467,"body":"homosexual element that's present in it, and it starts to shape the brain and the"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1983.467,"endTime":1987.652,"body":"mind of what's acceptable. Somebody gets pleasure from it, and it can"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1987.652,"endTime":1991.488,"body":"literally shape the script of somebody's brain. So they say here,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1992.268,"endTime":1996.988,"body":"they say, which is more concerning, what's called child sexual abuse material,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":1997.548,"endTime":2001.107,"body":"could watching that turn people into pedophiles?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2001.708,"endTime":2004.448,"body":"Now, they're not saying it's causative,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2005.048,"endTime":2008.257,"body":"but they're saying there's a strong link and connection."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2008.738,"endTime":2014.494,"body":"And they say, what should trouble us is they actually argue that this happens at times."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2014.494,"endTime":2020.251,"body":"What should trouble us even more is that some of these men who are looking at"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2020.251,"endTime":2024.568,"body":"pedophilic pornography had said they had no interest in sexually with children"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2024.568,"endTime":2026.008,"body":"before looking at porn."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2027.008,"endTime":2029.617,"body":"That seems to be as clear-cut an example that not all,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2030.288,"endTime":2034.567,"body":"but at least some, and they say bottom line, it doesn't just serve our sexual"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2030.288,"endTime":2034.567,"body":"tastes,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2035.167,"endTime":2037.968,"body":"it shapes them. It shapes them,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2038.627,"endTime":2042.307,"body":"and that's because there's physical things taking place in the brain-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2042.357,"endTime":2042.357,"body":"In the brain"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2042.357,"endTime":2045.117,"body":"... With reward pathways. So when this happens,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2045.647,"endTime":2051.589,"body":"you can't go back to just somebody in human flesh who doesn't look like they do"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2051.589,"endTime":2053.818,"body":"in a porn film who's normal,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2054.467,"endTime":2058.708,"body":"and you destroy your ability to just respond to a human being in the present."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2058.927,"endTime":2062.454,"body":"Well, that's a good... It's a good transition, I think, to how"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2062.454,"endTime":2063.268,"body":"this affects relationships."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2064.427,"endTime":2070.748,"body":"And this, in my view, is the really damaging part of this because it is,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2071.628,"endTime":2078.215,"body":"it is rewiring our brains so that we are, we are becoming less capable of"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2078.215,"endTime":2082.168,"body":"appreciating and enjoying sexual relationships with a real person."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2083.327,"endTime":2088.191,"body":"And it's a, it's a little bit hypocritical, I think, not a little, a lot"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2088.191,"endTime":2089.487,"body":"hypocritical of men because,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2090.228,"endTime":2095.648,"body":"you know, most men who watch this stuff, they don't look like the porn stars."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2090.228,"endTime":2095.648,"body":"Sean McDowell: [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2095.728,"endTime":2100.418,"body":"And, you know, and so to expect, you know, to expect that the women"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2100.418,"endTime":2105.108,"body":"they're with look like the women that they see when they're not that way-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2105.807,"endTime":2110.208,"body":"... Stri- at the least would be gross hypocrisy."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2111.347,"endTime":2115.476,"body":"And but I think the i- the idea that this affects relationships,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2116.427,"endTime":2121.867,"body":"particularly among adolescents, that's the part, Sean, that really got my attention."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2122.568,"endTime":2123.507,"body":"Yeah, that's concerning."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2123.887,"endTime":2128.128,"body":"Because, because if they grow up watching this stuff on the extreme,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2128.827,"endTime":2131.827,"body":"which, you know, that stuff wasn't available until,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2132.887,"endTime":2135.728,"body":"you know, j- you know, maybe just in the last 10 years."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2135.768,"endTime":2138.318,"body":"At least easily accessible and available."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2135.768,"endTime":2138.318,"body":"Scott Rae: Yeah. Sean McDowell: Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae: That's true. Sean McDowell","startTime":2138.327,"endTime":2139.007,"body":"I agree."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2140.248,"endTime":2145.057,"body":"You know, the... If that... When that becomes"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2140.248,"endTime":2145.057,"body":"normalized, then,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2146.007,"endTime":2149.728,"body":"you know, like we've said- ... The boy, the boys expect it,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2150.268,"endTime":2155.007,"body":"and the girls know that the boys want that, and so it's part of pleasing the boy."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2156.148,"endTime":2160.907,"body":"And that all of a sudden has become normalized among adolescents."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2156.148,"endTime":2160.907,"body":"Sean McDowell: Exactly."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2161.677,"endTime":2162.847,"body":"And, you know,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2163.967,"endTime":2167.447,"body":"there's, there's a lot, Sean, you know, all the stuff that happens in adolescence,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2168.068,"endTime":2171.907,"body":"you know, that shapes the trajectory of w- of where life goes-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2168.068,"endTime":2171.907,"body":"Sean McDowell: That's right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2172.128,"endTime":2174.688,"body":"... In some pretty influential ways."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2172.128,"endTime":2174.688,"body":"Sean McDowell: That's right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2174.708,"endTime":2179.711,"body":"And I just... It's just so tragic to me to see"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2179.711,"endTime":2183.047,"body":"increasingly adolescents being handicapped out of the gate-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2184.007,"endTime":2185.507,"body":"... From being able to enjoy,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2186.128,"endTime":2190.507,"body":"you know, what you and I would consider really good sexual relationships"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2186.128,"endTime":2190.507,"body":"within marriage."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2190.947,"endTime":2195.487,"body":"Handicapped is the right word. Disadvantaged from the get-go-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2190.947,"endTime":2195.487,"body":"Scott Rae: Right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2195.498,"endTime":2196.237,"body":"... Because of this."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2197.088,"endTime":2200.806,"body":"And, you know, one of the things they point out is they say most kids, if"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2200.806,"endTime":2202.898,"body":"they're searching for it's just out of curiosity,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2203.628,"endTime":2209.113,"body":"but you misspell a word, you're thrown onto a porn site. There are people trying"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2209.113,"endTime":2211.307,"body":"to hook kids actively early on."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2212.007,"endTime":2215.768,"body":"You know, interestingly, early act about how... You asked about how men are victims,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2216.608,"endTime":2220.807,"body":"and on page 37 they say, \"The truth is men are porn's victims too."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2221.467,"endTime":2225.342,"body":"Takes away their ability to enjoy fulfilling, respectful relationships and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2225.342,"endTime":2231.542,"body":"programs them to react to what they see on screenRather than to value and find mutual"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2231.542,"endTime":2233.092,"body":"pleasure with their partners."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2233.592,"endTime":2235.231,"body":"I couldn't have said it better myself."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2235.731,"endTime":2236.831,"body":"I have that underlined too."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2236.891,"endTime":2238.822,"body":"I mean, you have that same one underlined."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2236.891,"endTime":2238.822,"body":"Scott Rae: I do."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2238.822,"endTime":2239.452,"body":"I mean, it's just..."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2240.192,"endTime":2244.681,"body":"So they say, on the next page, they say, \"For men in heterosexual relationships,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2245.552,"endTime":2250.524,"body":"personal pornography use has been linked with increased relational conflict,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2250.524,"endTime":2254.501,"body":"diminished female sexual desire, poor male positive communication,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2255.012,"endTime":2259.172,"body":"and less overall satisfaction.\" Men's consump- solo consumption of porn"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2259.172,"endTime":2262.501,"body":"negatively impacts their female's partners, and guess what?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2263.112,"endTime":2267.282,"body":"Even if their partners don't know. That's the key."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2263.112,"endTime":2267.282,"body":"Scott Rae: That's-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2267.492,"endTime":2270.012,"body":"So what happens is somebody will come out of this,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2270.652,"endTime":2274.871,"body":"and then it'll be made known, and then their partners will say, \"Okay,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2275.811,"endTime":2277.672,"body":"now it actually makes sense."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2278.391,"endTime":2282.737,"body":"Now I can connect some dots.\" And they, you know, they have some studies in here."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2282.737,"endTime":2286.811,"body":"I don't wanna just believe studies that favor my view, but studies about divorce"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2282.737,"endTime":2286.811,"body":"increasing,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2287.692,"endTime":2288.44,"body":"because of that-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2289.012,"endTime":2289.882,"body":"Link with infidelity"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2290.072,"endTime":2291.842,"body":"... Link with... Yeah. Like, I think those, the,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2292.431,"endTime":2297.572,"body":"i-it's hard to show cause, but it's also hard to deny that that is a huge role-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2297.652,"endTime":2297.782,"body":"It, it, yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2297.782,"endTime":2299.442,"body":"... Driving infidelity."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2299.442,"endTime":2300.532,"body":"It's, it's a factor."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2301.532,"endTime":2305.199,"body":"I'm not, I'm not sure it's, I'm not sure it's the causative one, but it, but I"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2305.199,"endTime":2306.061,"body":"think to deny that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2306.101,"endTime":2306.101,"body":"It's a contributing factor"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2306.101,"endTime":2310.251,"body":"... To deny that it's a factor, I think, is putting your head in the sand."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2310.492,"endTime":2312.853,"body":"And here's an interesting point, Scott. It's almost embarrassing"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2312.853,"endTime":2317.052,"body":"that I didn't make this connection before because I've read and studied and talked"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2312.853,"endTime":2317.052,"body":"on this,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2317.592,"endTime":2321.211,"body":"but they talk about, you know, your question was how is it ruining relationships?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2321.911,"endTime":2325.351,"body":"And they say porn is killing young men's sexual performance."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2326.532,"endTime":2332.496,"body":"And so Swiss researchers found that 30% of males 18 to 24 suffer"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2332.496,"endTime":2335.052,"body":"from some degree of impotence, 30%."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2336.012,"endTime":2341.431,"body":"In 2014, researchers at the University of Cambridge found 60% of men who use"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2336.012,"endTime":2341.431,"body":"pornography,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2342.492,"endTime":2348.362,"body":"roughly 25 age, average age, experienced erectile dysfunction with sexual partners,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2349.152,"endTime":2351.831,"body":"but not with porn itself."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2352.851,"endTime":2358.622,"body":"So the problem, the way she frames it, I'm just gonna read it. I don't know any other"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2358.622,"endTime":2363.11,"body":"way to frame this. They say, \"The fact these lads l-leapt to attention when"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2363.11,"endTime":2364.072,"body":"viewing sexual imagery,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2364.731,"endTime":2369.867,"body":"but not in the presence of real-life lover-lovers, shows there's nothing wrong"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2369.867,"endTime":2371.152,"body":"with their penises."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2371.76,"endTime":2377.603,"body":"The problem lies in the mind, and the problem lies in the brain.\" And I think"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2377.603,"endTime":2383.811,"body":"that's exactly right. The problem is not that they don't have a libido that can be"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2377.603,"endTime":2383.811,"body":"active."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2384.112,"endTime":2390.578,"body":"The problem is it's been so shaped by images online that it doesn't translate to"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2390.578,"endTime":2391.871,"body":"a real partner."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2392.911,"endTime":2395.731,"body":"That distinction, I think, is really important to bring out."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2396.072,"endTime":2400.541,"body":"Here's, here's how they summarize this. I suspect you underlined"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2396.072,"endTime":2400.541,"body":"this too. Sean McDowell: Okay. [chuckles]"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2400.552,"endTime":2404.641,"body":"Porn users are losing the ability to be in the moment-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2400.552,"endTime":2404.641,"body":"Sean McDowell: Yep"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2404.641,"endTime":2406.612,"body":"... To be in intimate touch with their partner."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell: I did underline that. Scott Rae","startTime":2407.211,"endTime":2408.882,"body":"And-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2408.891,"endTime":2409.711,"body":"That's exactly right"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2410.032,"endTime":2414.011,"body":"... And here's, they have unwittingly surrendered one of the most"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2414.011,"endTime":2415.82,"body":"important attributes of a relationship,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2416.612,"endTime":2419.251,"body":"and one might well say of being human."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2421.112,"endTime":2425.072,"body":"So it's no surprise that partners suffer from their increasingly inhumane behavior."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2425.472,"endTime":2426.192,"body":"I think that's right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2426.811,"endTime":2431.552,"body":"You know, I'm glad I'm not raising daughters today."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2426.811,"endTime":2431.552,"body":"Sean McDowell: Oh, man. Scott Rae: Because,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2432.052,"endTime":2438.242,"body":"you know, I'm not exactly sure how to, how to safeguard them from some of this stuff."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2432.052,"endTime":2438.242,"body":"Uh-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2438.251,"endTime":2439.782,"body":"Well, let me, let's come back to some-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2438.251,"endTime":2439.782,"body":"Scott Rae: Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2439.782,"endTime":2441.192,"body":"... Thoughts for parents."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2441.291,"endTime":2441.521,"body":"We'll, we'll, we'll get-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2441.532,"endTime":2445.598,"body":"One, one of the questions that it's kinda surprised me for secular"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2445.598,"endTime":2450.342,"body":"thinkers to bring up, although when it comes to issues like critical theory and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2450.342,"endTime":2453.851,"body":"transgender ideology, there are a number of secular theories-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2450.342,"endTime":2453.851,"body":"Scott Rae: Yes"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2454.072,"endTime":2458.092,"body":"... Secular critics pushing back on this. There are certain strange"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2454.072,"endTime":2458.092,"body":"bedfellows."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2459.052,"endTime":2464.402,"body":"But this, I underline, I thought was just fascinating on page 100. Th-they said,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2465.192,"endTime":2466.692,"body":"the very top of page 100,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2467.311,"endTime":2472.598,"body":"\"The underside of almost every trans coming out story is a pornified conception"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2472.598,"endTime":2475.851,"body":"of what it is to be a woman."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2476.572,"endTime":2480.351,"body":"What is referred to as trans is a hypersexualized fantasy."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2481.052,"endTime":2486.881,"body":"It lures some males to identify as women and terrify some females into identifying"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2486.881,"endTime":2492.293,"body":"as male or non-binary.\" So they're not saying all of transgender individuals or"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2492.293,"endTime":2494.791,"body":"gender dysphoria is motivated by this,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2495.391,"endTime":2501.215,"body":"but it's a huge piece of this, and it's contributed to it sexualized views of what"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2501.215,"endTime":2507.038,"body":"it means to be a woman. And they refer to what they call heterosexual and bisexual"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2507.038,"endTime":2511.406,"body":"autogynophilic men who are attracted to the fantasy of themselves as"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2511.406,"endTime":2517.229,"body":"women. Well, in the past, somebody who had that could go talk with a counselor, share"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2517.229,"endTime":2521.596,"body":"with somebody in their life. Now there's this whole world of people"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2521.596,"endTime":2526.692,"body":"saying, \"That's normal, and here's porn you can look at.\" And it contributes, they"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2526.692,"endTime":2528.512,"body":"say, to increased gender confusion."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2529.492,"endTime":2532.452,"body":"I think that's right, which goes back to our opening point,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2532.972,"endTime":2535.731,"body":"that you take a range of issues, and beneath it,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2536.351,"endTime":2541.755,"body":"there's a huge percentage of influence by pornography. So let me read this one."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2541.755,"endTime":2546.0,"body":"They say, \"The consensus within the therapeutic profession is to destigmatize"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2546.0,"endTime":2550.632,"body":"and lift the shame from what were once categorized as perversions."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2551.271,"endTime":2555.481,"body":"With pornographic fuel and no social barriers, it is unsurprising this one"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2555.481,"endTime":2560.392,"body":"niche behavior has become mainstream.\" And they talk about how much things like, she"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2560.392,"endTime":2565.654,"body":"said right here, \"At present, there are nearly a million members of the trans porn"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2565.654,"endTime":2568.811,"body":"subreddit, a discussion board.\" And that kind of pornography,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2569.371,"endTime":2574.424,"body":"if you struggle with that, you can find it, but it normalizes it and shapes you"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2574.424,"endTime":2577.581,"body":"and shapes other people that are just looking for variety,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2578.572,"endTime":2581.192,"body":"and I think, I think they're right about that."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2582.052,"endTime":2586.532,"body":"Yeah. Now, Sean, we've al- we've also-- we've talked a lot about this"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2582.052,"endTime":2586.532,"body":"already,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2587.351,"endTime":2590.251,"body":"so maybe just a comment or two about how they view this."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2590.972,"endTime":2596.985,"body":"But how are AISex robots, things like that,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2597.815,"endTime":2601.346,"body":"you know, m-m-moving the pornographic ball forward."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2602.606,"endTime":2604.306,"body":"This is a really interesting question,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2605.076,"endTime":2610.378,"body":"and, I wrote down a couple notes on this I didn't wanna, I didn't wanna miss."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2610.378,"endTime":2616.155,"body":"But they introduced this idea of a new idea of sexual trauma."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2610.378,"endTime":2616.155,"body":"Sexual trauma."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2616.715,"endTime":2621.195,"body":"Now, I had an interaction some time ago with a young person who said-- made a"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2621.195,"endTime":2624.835,"body":"statement about how they had been assaulted online and were recovering from it."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2625.576,"endTime":2629.545,"body":"My first thought was like, assaulted online? Like, what is going on?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2629.775,"endTime":2633.791,"body":"Is this an excuse? Like, I just didn't understand what that means."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2633.791,"endTime":2634.795,"body":"Just click away."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2635.536,"endTime":2636.576,"body":"As I read this, I was like,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2637.076,"endTime":2642.034,"body":"\"Oh my goodness, I really didn't understand what this meant.\" And so they"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2642.034,"endTime":2646.611,"body":"give some examples here. They say t- \"New technologies like artificial intelligence,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2646.611,"endTime":2651.951,"body":"deepfakes, and robotics are like the early web's nudity and extremity of today's tube"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2651.951,"endTime":2653.096,"body":"sites,\" like YouTube,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2653.706,"endTime":2657.235,"body":"\"reshaping people's experience.\" So they give..."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2658.096,"endTime":2664.746,"body":"So one kind of trauma is the kind of trauma of seeing your face put onto th-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2658.096,"endTime":2664.746,"body":"Scott Rae: Mm-hmm"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2664.746,"endTime":2668.153,"body":"... Artificial intelligence as if it's you, and other people watching"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2668.153,"endTime":2671.561,"body":"that even though it's not you. That's traumatic for an individual."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2671.561,"endTime":2676.827,"body":"That hasn't happened to me, and I pray the Lord it doesn't, but I can only imagine"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2676.827,"endTime":2678.996,"body":"seeing that, how jarring that would be."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2679.735,"endTime":2684.996,"body":"They give another example of a, Where's the story in here about a girl?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2685.425,"endTime":2686.266,"body":"H-Here it is. \"One day,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2688.715,"endTime":2693.102,"body":"in 2021, a girl named Nina donned a virtual reality headset and stepped into"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2693.102,"endTime":2697.175,"body":"the metaverse. Within 60 seconds, she became the victim of virtual gang rape."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2697.715,"endTime":2701.675,"body":"Three or four male avatars with male voices pawed at her virtual persona,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2702.235,"endTime":2705.295,"body":"simulated sex with her, and took pictures as she tried to get away."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2705.976,"endTime":2708.955,"body":"She heard their voices ringing in their headphones, 'Don't pretend you don't love"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2708.955,"endTime":2711.476,"body":"it,'\" and some other things I'm not even gonna read here."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2712.036,"endTime":2714.666,"body":"I thought, oh my goodness, there's a whole level of-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2712.036,"endTime":2714.666,"body":"Scott Rae: Yes"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2714.675,"endTime":2718.722,"body":"... Trauma online, especially for a generation that's more"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2718.722,"endTime":2722.32,"body":"online, they're comfortable online. We've basically introduced, through"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2722.32,"endTime":2727.266,"body":"artificial intelligence, an entirely new means of traumatizing and harming people"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2727.266,"endTime":2729.065,"body":"and having new victims,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2729.856,"endTime":2732.655,"body":"which is just ridiculous. Last thing I'll say about this."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2733.755,"endTime":2739.955,"body":"I was trying to think about, like, maybe porn 1.0 was when there was magazines and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2739.955,"endTime":2741.505,"body":"videos and hotel rooms."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2742.436,"endTime":2745.896,"body":"Porn 2.0 was maybe when it's available on the internet."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2746.396,"endTime":2750.175,"body":"Porn 3.0 might be the introduction of, like, social media."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2750.996,"endTime":2756.663,"body":"Porn 4.0 is, like, virtual reality and artificial intelligence, because now they"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2756.663,"endTime":2761.585,"body":"have what it's called, like, gonzo porn, that it's done-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2756.663,"endTime":2761.585,"body":"Scott Rae: Right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2761.585,"endTime":2765.593,"body":"... In a way that it's like you are a part of this and participating"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2765.593,"endTime":2767.195,"body":"in it, not just viewing it."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2767.775,"endTime":2768.655,"body":"You're a part of it."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2769.135,"endTime":2775.177,"body":"So it says, \"You won't just watch, but you become the actor itself.\" And with"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2775.177,"endTime":2780.414,"body":"artificial intelligence, we talked about this a couple weeks ago online, about how"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2780.414,"endTime":2786.456,"body":"you can just plug in and create porn now through sites with your own ideas."},{"speaker":"So now people- Scott Rae","startTime":2787.076,"endTime":2787.766,"body":"Yeah"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2787.766,"endTime":2793.266,"body":"... Aren't only actors. Now people are creating. That's a whole"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2787.766,"endTime":2793.266,"body":"new level- Scott Rae: Right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2793.266,"endTime":2795.725,"body":"... Of brokenness. I don't even know what that's gonna mean"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2795.725,"endTime":2796.396,"body":"for the future."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2796.695,"endTime":2800.795,"body":"It do- d- it doesn't take studios in the San Fernando Valley-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2796.695,"endTime":2800.795,"body":"Sean McDowell: It doesn't Scott Rae: ... To,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2801.356,"endTime":2805.976,"body":"to produce this, you know? And that's why this user-generated content"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2805.976,"endTime":2808.496,"body":"is, I think, a major step,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2809.056,"endTime":2813.976,"body":"you know, step toward more extreme stuff, and s- a step toward non-consensual stuff."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2814.096,"endTime":2818.327,"body":"And it also creates a kind of addiction to artificially"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2818.327,"endTime":2822.135,"body":"intelligent-created porn, [chuckles] which is blurring reality and fiction."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2822.996,"endTime":2825.976,"body":"All right. We, we got time for one more question here."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2822.996,"endTime":2825.976,"body":"Sean McDowell: All right."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2825.996,"endTime":2826.916,"body":"What do we do about this?"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2827.615,"endTime":2832.344,"body":"I would say a few things. They, So two things. One is they give an"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2832.344,"endTime":2835.496,"body":"example here of people calling out a certain porn website,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2836.215,"endTime":2841.109,"body":"and a lady who's an activist drawing attention to the number of videos that"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2841.109,"endTime":2843.556,"body":"were loaded that were not carefully vetted-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2844.246,"endTime":2847.525,"body":"... That had, like, child sex abuse and pedophilia."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2844.246,"endTime":2847.525,"body":"Scott Rae: Wow."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2847.536,"endTime":2851.746,"body":"And in turn, certain credit card companies stopped working with them."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2853.135,"endTime":2855.525,"body":"I think there's an increased role for shame."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2856.655,"endTime":2860.604,"body":"Shame on these people. I'd love any of them, if you call me, I'll talk to you."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2860.604,"endTime":2864.786,"body":"I want you to look me in the eyes and say the porn you create on these sites,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2865.315,"endTime":2870.996,"body":"you'd be okay with your daughter and your wife and your granddaughter being a part"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2865.315,"endTime":2870.996,"body":"of it. Scott Rae: Yeah. W-with-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell: Look me in the eyes- Scott Rae","startTime":2871.076,"endTime":2872.306,"body":"Right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2872.306,"endTime":2876.24,"body":"... And tell me that. If not, shame on you, because everybody"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2876.24,"endTime":2878.536,"body":"who's on this site is somebody's daughter."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2879.036,"endTime":2880.646,"body":"Everybody who's on this site-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2879.036,"endTime":2880.646,"body":"Scott Rae: That's right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2880.646,"endTime":2884.852,"body":"... Is somebody's grandson. So I think there's a role for shame, and"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2884.852,"endTime":2889.706,"body":"this book made me a little bit more bold. I'm just gonna call it out."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2889.706,"endTime":2894.235,"body":"Shame on them. Second, talk to your kids early and build relationships with them."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2894.715,"endTime":2899.295,"body":"Talk to them, talk to them, talk to them. The number one way kids are learning about"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2894.715,"endTime":2899.295,"body":"porn..."},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2899.556,"endTime":2900.815,"body":"I'm sorry, learning about sex-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2901.675,"endTime":2902.286,"body":"Is, that's right"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2902.286,"endTime":2905.115,"body":"... Is through porn. Talk to your kids early."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2906.496,"endTime":2909.596,"body":"Hear, hear. Sean, this is, I d- I don't know,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2910.356,"endTime":2913.655,"body":"I don't know if I can recommend the book to everybody."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2910.356,"endTime":2913.655,"body":"Sean McDowell: I agree."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2914.115,"endTime":2918.275,"body":"It's, it's not for everybody. It's not for the faint of heart on this."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2918.835,"endTime":2924.675,"body":"It was, it has been quite an education for you and me. But I admit,"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2925.376,"endTime":2931.505,"body":"it was, it was a really tough read. And I'm still not quite recovered from it."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2925.376,"endTime":2931.505,"body":"And this-"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2931.536,"endTime":2934.222,"body":"I agree. And I kinda hope I don't have to read another book like this,"},{"speaker":"Sean McDowell","startTime":2934.222,"endTime":2935.655,"body":"but I feel like our viewers and listeners-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2935.666,"endTime":2938.635,"body":"Well, I think we have an, I think we have an obligation to do that."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2935.666,"endTime":2938.635,"body":"Sean McDowell: Yeah."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2939.715,"endTime":2940.456,"body":"But this is..."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2941.275,"endTime":2944.652,"body":"I just say, you know, I don't mind taking one for the team, but th- reading this w-"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2944.652,"endTime":2946.715,"body":"this was taking a fastball to the ribs for the team."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2948.376,"endTime":2953.635,"body":"So for our viewers and listeners, I hope you found this helpful."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2954.175,"endTime":2959.536,"body":"I hope you haven't found it offensive or off-putting. We've just tried to represent"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2954.175,"endTime":2959.536,"body":"reality here."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2960.036,"endTime":2966.294,"body":"But you need to know w-what the depth of the industry is and how it's impacting"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2966.294,"endTime":2970.712,"body":"adolescents, young people, how it's impacting the way our brains get rewired."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2970.712,"endTime":2976.97,"body":"This is all stuff that I think most people who are, you know, who are casual viewers"},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2976.97,"endTime":2979.916,"body":"of porn, I'm not sure they've thought about."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2981.215,"endTime":2984.695,"body":"So we hope this has been helpful for you."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2986.146,"endTime":2989.135,"body":"This was a ha- this was a hard episode to do."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2986.146,"endTime":2989.135,"body":"Sean McDowell: I agree."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2990.295,"endTime":2994.076,"body":"So anyway, I think that's e- that's enough on this one."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2990.295,"endTime":2994.076,"body":"Sean McDowell: Enough said."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2994.596,"endTime":3002.076,"body":"All right. We'll see you next time."},{"speaker":"Scott Rae","startTime":2994.596,"endTime":3002.076,"body":"[outro music]"}]}