Preserving Detroit’s Character: Growth, Change and the Future of Authentic Neighborhoods

“Authentic Detroit” gets used as a compliment, a warning, and sometimes a weapon in development debates. We wanted to slow that word down and ask what it actually means on the ground, especially in two places that Detroiters care about deeply: Midtown and Eastern Market. Craig Fahle is joined by Melanie Markowicz, Executive Director of Midtown Detroit Inc., and Katy Trudeau, President and CEO of Eastern Market Partnership, for a candid talk about how neighborhood decisions get made when everyone has an opinion and the stakes are real.

We get into the push and pull behind growth: new housing and restaurants alongside legacy businesses, cultural institutions, historic districts, and the everyday routines that shape a place’s identity. In Eastern Market, the conversation turns practical fast: this is a working food district with thousands of jobs, farmers, vendors, and heavy logistics, which creates real tension with the idea of turning everything into a residential lifestyle zone. In Midtown, the challenge spans nine neighborhoods and includes walkability, storefront vitality, and the responsibility of keeping character intact across a big geography.

From zoning and overlay districts to community engagement that starts before a design is finished, Melanie and Katie share what “meaningful” participation looks like, why one-on-one trust building beats performative meetings, and how adaptive reuse and historic preservation can keep Detroit from becoming “anywhere USA.” We also talk about the role of murals, public art, and events in keeping culture local, plus the behind-the-scenes work people rarely notice until it’s gone.

If you care about Detroit development, neighborhood identity, historic preservation, small business stability, and the future of Midtown Detroit and Eastern Market, this one is for you. Subscribe, share with a friend who loves Detroit, and leave a review so more people can find the conversation.

Transcript

Welcome And Why Authenticity Matters

Craig Fahle 0:08

Greetings everybody, welcome to the VBK Podcast. I'm Craig Fawley. So glad that you've chosen to be with us today. And don't forget, tell your friends about us, subscribe, all that good stuff. We're not making any money off of this, and we're not about to anytime soon. But it doesn't matter, it still helps, and it helps other people hear these great conversations that we try to have on this show. Uh today, you know, we're gonna talk a little bit about the city of Detroit, which makes sense given that's where we are as we speak. But there is a lot of discussion about real Detroit. What is authentically Detroit? And this is something that is top of mind for just about every conversation we have around development, uh new restaurants coming to town, what kind of bars are gonna be here? Do we have too many rooftop bars now? Are we getting too fancy for our britches? And is that gonna mean that Detroit is changing? Well, this discussion, again, is part of every development decision uh that takes place in town. But there are certain areas of town in which these decisions are a little bit more difficult than others. Um and of course, we happen to represent two of those districts, both Eastern Market and, of course, Midtown Detroit. So we're gonna talk a little bit about places with deep history, uh really strong identities, uh beloved businesses and and public spaces that are hugely important to Detroiters for generations now. And as investment and activity continues to grow in the city, the challenge is how to welcome change without losing what makes those places distinct. So joining me today are Melanie Markowitz, Executive Director of Midtown Detroit Inc., and Katie Trudeau, President and CEO of Eastern Market Partnership. It's a pleasure to have you both here. It's uh it's nice to see you, and uh, thanks for being here.

Katy Trudeau 1:46

Thanks for having us.

Craig Fahle 1:47

Of course.

Melanie Markowicz 1:47

Appreciate it, Craig.

Craig Fahle 1:48

Well, and I'm hoping I'm phrasing this correctly at the beginning and sort of framing this conversation the right way because it is something that gets discussed. Every decision the two of you make about what's going to be happening in your districts or any input you have on what's gonna be happening in your districts is met with all kinds of different reaction. You don't know exactly what it's going to be. Sometimes it's very supportive, other times maybe not so much.

Two Districts Under Pressure

Craig Fahle 2:10

Um I want to give you each an opportunity to talk just a little bit about how often that happens to you. Melanie, I'm gonna start with you. Um Midtown's got a much larger district than Eastern Market in terms of footprint size and and several different neighborhoods that are incorporated technically under your umbrella. But talk a bit about that, because you've been in this job for about a year now, I think. A little over a year. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2:32

Uh it's a big geography. It's nine neighborhoods over uh three square miles, all the way from Brush Park and the South Cass Corridor, all the way up to Virginia Park, New Center area. So it's it's a huge swath full of all different types of uh communities, neighborhoods, stakeholders, cultural institutions, hospitals, universities, um, and a lot of really great small businesses and activity that's been there for some some for generations. A lot of historic architecture, historic districts. Um, and so the kind of tug and pull as as this district continues to grow, um, and it's seen a lot of that population growth that we've been noting is is in the midtown area, I'm I'm happy to say. But with all of that kind of growth and massive development happening, there's always this delicate balance to be had between the folks who have lived and invested here sometimes their whole lives, um, with newcomers who are developing new buildings, are starting new restaurants. And there's always this kind of conversation about what is authentic, what feels like Midtown, what feels like the Caste Corridor. And so, you know, when it comes to our office and our nonprofit organization, we are very invested in making sure that the authentic nature of our communities is preserved and enhanced, and that things that are developed and added augment that and uplift that. So that's always a delicate balance. It doesn't always work out just right. Um, but it's something that we try to do in every action that we take.

Craig Fahle 4:10

Uh Katie, I want to give you an opportunity to talk about that as well because you have another uh role here too, in that you know, you guys are an active, you know, food district. And so, I mean, there are a bunch of people that would love nothing more than to turn it into a lot of lovely homes next to a farm stand, but you still have operating businesses that you need to make sure are taken care of as well.

Katy Trudeau 4:29

Yeah, and I would say that as we make development decisions for the Eastern market or we s we work with developers who are interested in developing in the neighborhood, we're concerned also with um the risk of uh commercial displacement. So businesses that have been operating in the neighborhood, both retail and wholesale businesses for in some cases 100 years or longer, ensuring that decisions we're making, um land use decisions, uh development decisions, even investment decisions, like where are we making sure is there public space located in the right place? Are we looking at the right streetscape solutions? You know, the 375 project was one that was really important to us because of how it could have impacted more of the logistics and commercial businesses in our neighborhood. Um we're we're looking at it a little bit differently because a lot we we don't have a lot of residential, although we do have some. Um and as you mentioned, there is an interest in in residential development in and around our neighborhood because the theory is that who wouldn't want to live next to a large public market. Um, but there's inherently a conflict between a quality of life experience of living next to um, you know, a meat processing facility that's got 600 trucks coming in and out every day. Um so we're, you know, first and foremost, we are a food district. We're an operating food district. There's thousands of jobs that uh rely on our neighborhood to stay commercial. There's hundreds of farmers, both local farmers and rural farmers throughout the state of Michigan who come to the market to sell at wholesale, but also at our Saturday market. There's a lot of small businesses, some of which have been operating in the neighborhood for more than 10 years or longer, um, that really rely on ensuring that the neighborhood stays the way it is in a way, but they also they do all want to see growth. They want to see improved sidewalks, they want to see residents living in and around and patronizing their businesses. And so we, you know, we we address some of this through zoning. We did a rezoning in the neighborhood in 2022 with the city. Um, but there's lots of other ways that that we as an organization get involved in these kind of conversations to try to steer development in the right direction without scaring it away because we do need the investment and we need to see the neighborhood grow.

Craig Fahle 6:47

Oh, I I want to talk a little bit about that because I mean you guys are sort of at the forefront of a lot of this, and that's just based on your location, right? I mean, proximity to uh downtown, the economic activity that's taking place. I mean, Midtown has always, I thought, been sort of underutilized for what it was for the last 30, 40 years. It's now obviously coming into its own, but I mean, you can hold things off for a certain while. The city has been receptive to your ideas, Katie, I know about about again zoning and giving you uh some say in that. Melanie, I'm wondering if if you've had that same level of sort of commitment from the city that you should have a say in what's happening here and uh do they recognize the value of having local input?

Melanie Markowicz 7:26

Yeah, absolutely. So a lot of the zoning uh throughout our neighborhoods, you know, there's changes that happen here and there, but a lot of it is kind of where it needs to be when it comes to commercial corridors. Um but we also have the traditional Main Street Overlay District on Woodward Avenue and West Grand Boulevard. And so anything, you know, development-wise, um, and even signage for that matter, comes to our office for consultation and approval before it goes through city permitting, um, which is a good thing for us to provide comment not only on you know adherence to the ordinance, but you know, does this fit in with our community? Is this aberrant? Um, if it is, is that good? Why? Um so it's not just, you know, aesthetics, if you will, but it's really thinking about more broadly about how the community builds. Um so the city really values that input. Um I know the Planning Commission certainly does, um, as well as all the departments, and I'm sure Katie has a very similar experience. Uh we're constantly working with all of the city departments on these efforts.

Craig Fahle 8:34

Aaron Ross Powell

Defining Authentic Detroit

Craig Fahle 8:35

Well, I want to get back to something I mentioned at the very beginning when I talked about this debate that we have about authentic, right? Authentic Detroit, real Detroit, what's real and what isn't. Um people bring that up a lot in these discussions. You know, anytime somebody wants to build something, do something. Uh what do you hear in that word when somebody says we need to preserve the authenticity of the of the area?

Melanie Markowicz 8:57

Oh, I would love to take this one. Please. So it's a side note. Oh, yeah. As a side note, uh I'm a historian and architectural historian, so we have very technical terms for authenticity, uh, cultural landscape, and also intangible cultural heritage. I'm not going to bore you with those definitions, but I'm just going to kind of explain what that is kind of composed of, at least in my eyes. Um, authenticity is about not preserving only the physical characteristics of a place, historic buildings, um, spatial arrangements, topology. But it's more for me, it's really about those, the visible imprint of you know, human activity in an environment that is about, you know, traditions, activities, the way people do things. So it's a certain flair where the activities that occur in Midtown in the Cast Quarter, for example, are going to be very different activities and traditions that occur in Eastern Market and downtown, Corktown, villages, et cetera. Um, so when we're talking about authenticity in a place, it it's kind of a combination of the physical and the intangible. Um and I think it's very personal to each individual person, honestly, because all of that kind of cultural memory is steeped in their personal experience in a space. I mean, you hear people talk about um, you know, Hudson's downtown and the heyday in the 50s and 60s and going downtown, and that's part of their cultural memory. And the same goes for our very old historic, you know, neighborhoods that we we steward and serve. Um, that experience is different for everyone, but there are things that are very, you know, typical in these neighborhoods where you have traditions, like for example, Dally in the Alley is a really wonderful tradition that's been going on for 30 something years, um, you know, born out of the Cast Corridor artist movement. Um, and those things are very alive and well in our district. And so one of the things that we try to do as an organization is to spotlight that, lift that up, and make sure that those traditions are valued and also, you know, accounted for in the way that we grow together so that we're co-authoring that development together.

Craig Fahle 11:19

Katie, go ahead.

Katy Trudeau 11:20

I would um, you know, we talk about this a lot because there's things about the n our neighborhood and and our, you know, things that fall under our responsibility, caretaking of the very historic sheds, for instance, where if we if we play our cards right, there's some of it just comes with the territory that if if we just caretake these beautiful historic facilities, we're going to maintain some authenticity of the Eastern market. But I think there's something in the in the seizing of opportunities as you have to grow. So inevitably you're gonna have to grow. So a good example of that is the Saturday market. So the Saturday market before the our the inception of the nonprofit that I managed took over in 2006, it was primarily a wholesale pro or a produce market. Um the sheds fell into disrepair. There wasn't a lot of diversity in the offerings at that market. And as the organization established itself and grew, one of the opportunities in taking care of the markets and the sheds was to offer packaged goods. And what that does is it opens up this whole opportunity for small businesses. So now we've got small businesses who rely on the Saturday market to come and sell their products. So where we grew and we changed what was core to the market as this produce market, we grew it into something that was more of a public market experience and not just a pure produce whole uh farmers market. We also created lots of opportunities and in a way we we created a new generation of experiences for Detroit and Detroiters to view the grew uh to view and love the Eastern market as a place that was there for them and created economic opportunity for them. And so I think that's part of any time you have this you have to make this difficult decision, there's there's inevitably going to be a chance to say, like, how can I make a difficult decision but do it in a way that maybe at first will raise some eyebrows but will create more opportunities for more folks down the road.

Managing Growth Without Displacement

Craig Fahle 13:22

I you know, I I think one of the the things that people may, you know, sort of unfairly at times judge the two of you on. Um if you are making a decision based on what you think is in the best interest of the neighborhood, that's somebody else's idea of like this is my project. I want this to go forward and you're blocking me, you're blocking progress. Um does how how does that impact the way that you approach something? Because you can't say yes to everything, obviously. There are some things that just don't fit. So do you have, I guess, um arguments at the ready? So you say when you come out in opposition to something that that you think just doesn't fit the character. It's not an insult to the person doing it. It's just like sorry, this doesn't belong here.

Melanie Markowicz 14:05

Oh, I don't know if I have something set and ready. Uh I think that's on a case-by-case basis, but um oh man, I gotta think on this one. Do you do you have a set thing that you're doing?

Katy Trudeau 14:15

Yeah, I mean there's it depend depending on who I'm dealing with, there's different things that are really like their go-to's around the some of what I said earlier around our our our businesses. Like we have uh, you know, Wolverine Packings in our neighborhood and they do $2 billion in annual revenue. They employ 800 people. Um that's not a you know, we're we don't want to lose Wolverine Packing to to a greenfield in the suburbs. So there's there's that that carries a lot of weight. And you know, they're they serve on our board, we're close partners with them, and so that's just one example of, but it's gotta be, it's like knowing who's who's around you because it's not just us. It's not just us making the decision. We're we have the fortune of being entrusted by those businesses, our board of directors, the city to to have these roles and to serve in these roles. And so it's it's understanding like who are the people and that you're you're working on behalf and lining them up behind you to say, you know, this is this is not, you know, in my expert opinion, this is maybe not the right thing for for here. But I'm also that's also coming from a place of I'm I'm tied in with you know what the community thinks and what the businesses in the districts need and want. And to some degree, I'm speaking on their behalf and they've trusted me to do that. So I think building your base and and making sure you've uh talked to the right people uh really, really goes a long way to not have to bear the burden of it entirely, and then you're in the situation where somebody's saying, Well, this isn't happening because Katie doesn't want it to happen. It's like Fez, that's just not what's going on. This is this is a neighborhood decision. This is what we think is the best um decision for the neighborhood to grow.

Craig Fahle 16:00

But you're not in a position necessarily to stop people from like buying and selling real estate in your districts, right? People can buy and st and and they'll buy it with the here's I'm gonna put this in. And I mean, Eastern Market, let's just be honest, there has been some discussion in past years about you know turning this into a more of a residential district and bringing in, you know, more restaurants and more cafes and and having the market open more days a week. But that doesn't necessarily work with your business model. Um you're in a position where every once in a while you have to disappoint somebody that maybe had grand visions and just didn't realize what it was gonna take to get over the finish line.

Melanie Markowicz 16:33

Yeah.

Craig Fahle 16:34

How do you I mean because you you've had the same situation, Melanie, in Midtown where people buy things up thinking it's just gonna be easy. And and why wouldn't they want this?

Melanie Markowicz 16:42

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we can't control who buys property or what kind of steward of that property they're going to be.

Craig Fahle 16:50

That's another issue.

Melanie Markowicz 16:52

I have really great, you know, I'm blessed to have really wonderful developers in our district that really want to engage with the community that like, does this feel right? How can I set up a meeting to discuss a brownfield for literally development down the street on Selden? Um, like, what is the best way to introduce this to the community? What do you think about, you know, the historic character of this rehab, et cetera? But you have a lot of, you know, property owners and in some to some degree, business owners too, that frankly are not the best stewards of their property. They're not thinking about the broader good of the community or the commercial corridor or the residents, for example. You know, there's this whole section along Woodward that is um, you know, troubling, uh troubling pretty much to most people, um, that that you know, we have a really challenging time addressing because I can't force them to make their property look better. I can't force them to have a certain look in some ways outside of like city ordinances. Um, so sometimes, you know, you just have to tell them exactly what you think. Like you know, there's been many an instance, and I'm sure you've had this too, where property owners or small business owners will change the exterior of their building without permits. This happens all the time in the city. Yeah, sure. And uh they get caught, of course, and then they bellyache that they have to change it back, particularly when it comes to historic buildings in a local historic district. Um and I understand the arduous nature of you know permitting and sometimes working within a local historic district, but having that broader view of you know, a sense of identity and continuity for the entire district really puts everybody else's um, you know, interests on the table. And again, like I'm not just speaking just for me, what I think. I'm listening to, you know, the neighbors down Second Avenue, I'm listening to the small business, you know, the large corporate partner, the cultural institutions. And there's always a bend and wave with that. So you need to, you know, find your way through that, which is it is really challenging, actually.

Katy Trudeau 19:07

I would just add to it, too, that one thing that I have found reasonably successful is that, you know, in some ways, I'm also looking out for the interest of the developer who wants to come and develop in the neighborhood. I don't want them, their project to fail. It's not good for them, and it's also not good for the neighborhood. So some of this is like we're here all day, every day in this neighborhood. We're seeing the way trucks are flowing, we're seeing the vendors and small businesses and how they move in and out of the neighborhood, and we see how the large businesses move in and out of the neighborhood. And you may think that this is very appealing, but you know, when you start sort of step back and watch it, the 24-hour cycle of the Eastern market, that's maybe not going to be a successful project for you or for us, because we may have something sitting there that's not going to

What Real Community Engagement Looks Like

Speaker 2 19:52

work.

Craig Fahle 19:52

Well, you mentioned Melanie a minute ago, engagement, right? And and I want to get uh I want to get an idea from both of you of what you consider to be meaningful community engagement around a project, because I think this is a step a lot of developers take for granted. Um, and and I'm not trying to belittle anybody, but they may think it's just a couple of public meetings, and everybody's gonna love their project. Never goes that way in Detroit. I mean, I don't I'm like maybe in Chicago, I don't know, maybe in New York, but uh not here. People have an opinion on everything. You could have 30 meetings and somebody's gonna say, I didn't have a chance to be heard on this, and I hate this project. I I've talked to those people constantly. Uh what does it take for you to feel comfortable with the level of engagement that took place?

Melanie Markowicz 20:37

A lot of people think community engagement is checking off a box. Um, and a lot of the perception is that community engagement is largely performative. And I understand that that sensibility and that feeling because this city has had been community engagement out for decades. And so somebody not being into that process or being suspect of it is a natural reaction. And I kind of approach community engagement with that kind of understanding. Um, and I think developers and everybody else should really step in with that understanding of the context of development and growth in the city and how residents and long-standing, you know, businesses have been the subject of poor community engagement or zero community engagement, or promised things that never came to be materialized again and again and again. So people are naturally, you know, naturally kind of like, mmm, I don't know if I believe you, or I'll believe it when I see it. So with that in mind, I think community engagement starts before your final design is done, um, kind of way before that as well. Like really getting to know your community about, you know, what they need, what's missing. Getting to know kind of like the cultural and physical context and around a development is, I think, the first form of engagement. It's not like scheduling some meeting. It's really getting to know the community in a different way and talking to a lot of different stakeholders. But community engagement shouldn't just be like, hey, what do you think of this? It should be co-authoring spaces together. I'm a firm believer that multiple voices, even completely competing voices, always make a project better. I want to hear the voice that thinks what I'm proposing is absolutely not okay or bad because I want to hear their perspective. Because every single instance I found, it always makes a project better. There's always a perspective that I never saw or the developer never saw, or maybe we thought this park should serve this function, but we didn't know this was going on. I think it's a chance for communication and exchange that always makes a project better. And so the goal should not be just input and is this okay, but kind of a relationship of co-authoring in a lot of ways. And I know that that sounds idealistic, but I I think there's a way that it can be done.

Katy Trudeau 23:19

Yeah, I mean, so community engagement in Easter market looks a little bit different because we have we have a smaller residential base. So a lot of the developments you have businesses though that also are sitting at the table. That's what I was gonna say. So anytime when new development's coming, it's usually a conversation with the the merchant community. And you know, we hold regular merchant meetings, and a lot of times somebody who's e whether it's the city doing a road project or a developer wanting to try something new, want to talk to our community, they'll come to our merchant meetings as opposed to going out directly. And I think that's helpful because you've kind of got this little bit of an endorsement here that like if the Eastern market's convening this meeting that that that it's something we should at least listen to. And I think that's helpful. Um and but for us, and and we do engagement ourselves because we do some development ourselves in the neighborhood. Um our engagement is very one-on-one, very personal. It's very much like how is this going to serve you as a business or a farmer or a vendor? Um, and we want to do this to make sure that it's going to not only achieve our goals for the neighborhood and for our organization, but help you achieve your goals. We're always thinking about how any dollar that we're spending in the neighborhood is going to create other economic opportunity for the businesses and the business community. Um I think that having that it it may be extra work. It's not just like a big public meeting where people come and they hear you talk, uh, you know, according to a PowerPoint deck, but in in the long run, it's actually less time, one-on-one conversations, getting to know each other, you build trust that way, um, and you're really starting to show um that you're on you maybe you can't fully understand their experience because you're never going to be them, but you can start to understand and hear their point of view. And we also as a nonprofit representing the neighborhood get engaged with a lot ourselves by government. And so we see experience that we have experiences of kind of poor community engagement ourselves where we're not necessarily we're not being heard, we're not being um there's not a there's not thoughtfulness in how in learning how the neighborhood really runs 24 hours a day. And and so also having that experience ourselves, we can it it does help us to be more sensitive to the needs of those that we're engaging on everything happening in the neighborhood.

Why Adaptive Reuse Builds Trust

Craig Fahle 25:43

I just want to remind folks, my guests right now, Katie Trudeau of Eastern Market and Melanie Markowitz of uh um Midtown, Detroit Inc. uh appreciate them both being here. A few more questions that I want to get to. Um and I was thinking of this just, you know, right before you both walked in the door today, and I was looking around at some of the new construction we have happening outside our window here, but also some of the restoration work that has been done. And I think one of the major changes we've seen in Detroit over the last 15 years or so is the once again renewed faith that uh adaptive reuse is something that is doable here. And that has had a big impact on the way that these two districts have developed and are developing. We've seen some really uh interesting office concepts going up in Eastern Market that we wouldn't have expected to see a decade ago, and certainly buildings being preserved in Midtown that would have been slated for the wrecking ball uh before then. Does that make your job a little bit easier when it comes to getting people to buy into projects if it's still gonna look the same? At least you know, or back to its former glory?

Melanie Markowicz 26:47

Short answer is yes. Short answer is yes.

Craig Fahle 26:53

So go ahead, though.

Speaker 26:54

The short answer is yes. Uh longer answer is uh is a historic preservation as myself. Um the kind of rallying behind historic preservation and rehabilitation and adaptive reuse rather than building new is in, in my view, a positive one for many respects. One, I think a lot of people are getting behind it because it preserves that physical spatial arrangement that they're used to and that kind of cultural identity at the very least. Um but I think about it in terms of not only that and the cultural impact, but I also think about more practical things about job creation and where that investment is really going when you're building new compared to rehabilitating a building. Uh building new, most of your cost is going to be in materials, which are not locally sourced for the most part. It's certainly not cheap. It's certainly not cheap right now. Um, whereas rehabilitation, most of your cost is going towards labor, which is local. So the kind of economic impact there were to rehabilitation is going to be really felt more at a local scale, all the way from the workers on the construction site to the restaurants that those workers are going to, um, to local craftsmen. Um so from that point of view, uh it's really better for the economy, it's better, you know, sustainability. Uh there's a saying going that goes, you know, the greenest building is the one already built. Um but it really preserves that neighborhood character and feeling that people frankly are craving so that it's not anywhere USA. It's not a strip mall or a building that could be plopped anywhere in any community and just live on. It's something unique to our communities distinctly. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Craig Fahle 28:38

I mean Eastern Market just not too long ago had a situation where a deteriorating building um had you know lost part of its facade and there was questions about whether or not it was going to survive. You were able to save it, which was great. And I think for the character of the neighborhood, um like I said, this is something that we wouldn't have considered necessarily 15 years ago. How's that impacted Eastern Market?

Katy Trudeau 28:57

Well, uh you know, we have another there's the that there's that story, and then we also have the iHeart project that opened last year. And I mean, it's just remarkable. Inside, it it's just this stunning uh experience. And you know what else too with adaptive reuse? And you see it in the building we're in right now. So you preserve these elements of what was there before, even if it's not part of the the program today, um like the pool here or in the the iHeart building, you've got the there's these huge catacombs that are underground because it's a former cold storage and then brewery building. And um you the thing that's so fun about adaptive reuse in addition to like what it does for the neighborhood and preserving the neighborhood character is that you're also you're truly preserving the history. You're you you you walk into that building, you don't even see it from the outside. But you go in, you walk through, and there's gonna be an art gallery on one of the floors where there's remnants of the brewery. The walls are super thick because cold storage used you literally required ice and thick walls 100 years ago. And so you're it it it's pres preservation of the literal building and the fabric that we all love and know is preferable to something new and generic, but you're also it's you're preserving the literal history. You get to see what was happening in that neighborhood a hundred years ago, even though it's a a different backdrop. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Art Murals And Local Pride

Craig Fahle 30:22

Well, you mentioned art um and and a gallery going in there, but I mean obviously murals are a huge part of the Eastern market experience. Midtown has obviously arts are are are baked into the DNA of this neighborhood. What role does that play in terms of this whole authenticity uh discussion that we're having? I look at this mural on this building across down the street every single day out my window, and it makes me happy. Um But you both have embraced this notion and and like want to encourage this type of thing. How does that set you guys apart, you think?

Speaker 30:53

Well, is is set us apart from each other in the way that we approach murals or set us apart community?

Craig Fahle 30:58

No, just in terms of in terms of the neighborhood and the feel and the authenticity of it, how does the art factor into that?

Speaker 31:03

I mean a lot of the art that is in Midtown and New Center neighborhoods is contextual to that place.

Craig Fahle 31:09

Um you are the cultural center. Yeah. Yeah, we are. We are.

Melanie Markowicz 31:14

But you know, just a quick example. I I personally live in Milwaukee Junction, which is part of our, you know, geography stewardship. And there's a lot of Albert Kahn architecture in that neighborhood and in New Center in general, and there's this mural that says, we can do it, K-A-H-N, like a block down from me. And like that instills community pride. So a lot of the public art that we have is contextual in that way, or is produced, you know, through something out of the Detroit Institute of Arts or the College for Creative Studies, or a lot of the makers that we have, like, you know, Shinola has clocks throughout our entire geography. Um so, like the public art aspect, you know, we're gonna be really embracing this as the, you know, organization continues to evolve and work on a lot of urban planning projects is to renew a lot of our public art, like in the Viaducts, for example, in New Center, and also to create new art that really tells that narrative story of the history of these communities and also the future of these communities. And I think that's a wonderful opportunity for people to represent themselves and for storytelling. Like it's visual storytelling, it has that capacity. And then when it comes to things like murals in the market and Eastern market, I mean, working on those murals, people come to watch these artists work on those murals in real time. And I think there's this great craving in this city, and it's part of our DNA that we are artists and designers, and we're always inventing something, whether it's, you know, engineering or cars or new technology, all of this is about creation and energy. And we're intoxicated by it, honestly.

Katy Trudeau 32:59

Well, and we saw that this year, so um, in 2025, we celebrated the 10th anniversary of murals in the market, and um a lot of the artists this year were local Detroit artists who 10 years ago, some of the we've all the the festival's always focused on local Detroit art, but there's some really iconic art. Uh there's a mural on Division Street by Hebrew Brantley, who's he's from Chicago. He's now an internationally renowned uh mural artist. And the the artists that painted this year maybe assisted him 10 years ago. And so what that's not it's it's the we now benefit from the public art in the neighborhood, but it's also created almost like this economy for Detroit, like true Detroit-based artists who have a Detroit uh-based perspective and point of view that now we're benefiting from ten years later in the in what we're seeing in the new the new um mural. So it's there's something like m much more comprehensive about it than just the public art. It's the it's like culture in the making that that we see when we we place an importance on public art and and how it can beautify and enhance the neighborhood.

Craig Fahle 34:07

Well, and it's not just art though, because i Eastern Market, obviously,

Events That Keep Culture Local

Craig Fahle 34:12

and and Midtown, uh you guys both also have a number of events that take place. There's programming that's going on uh in your locations all year round for the most part. And it it's it's a bigger part of your job, I think, than a lot of people realize is figuring out how to do that stuff and to to manage it. Um but there's an expectation there that that you put these sorts of things on um and how does that sort of help you again tell that story of where you are and and I guess you know, help maintain, again, the authenticity.

Katy Trudeau 34:45

Well, I think the way you do the the events is if you you know hire local businesses, we we try when we do both obviously we have our Saturday markets, that's all local businesses and farmers, but we also when we do private events or we have our own fundraising event or Easter Market After Dark, we try to also utilize and support those local businesses in the way we offer the event. So there's literally an authenticity to the experience that runs through everything that we do in the neighborhood, because you're gonna see the same coffee vendor and you're gonna see the same baked goods, and um, you're gonna know because you can meet them at any of these events that these are local businesses, many of whom live in the city of Detroit. Um so there's that aspect of it, but then it's also just even the way you program it, the way you make it something that's open for everybody. We see this at Eastern Market After Dark. It's really just such an amazing community experience. Everybody comes out for that, all ages. Um and it's you just you have to be thoughtful about it and you have to be very, very intentional about it and work with the right partners on it. But it's um, you know, it's just an opportunity and it benefits the neighborhood. And so that's kind of how we think about it.

Melanie Markowicz 36:06

We think about it very similarly. Uh so for the return of Noel Knight this year, all of the, you know, vendors and retail and food, it's our intention to have all of that be local small businesses within our geographic footprint. Um, it's an opportunity for makers markets and you know, to do something a little bit different and not to, you know, have, you know, some random food truck coming in from the suburbs. Like our community is amazing and we want to share that with everyone. So for all of the events that we do, and even for you know our internal board meetings, we are utilizing small businesses for everything that we do with a preference for that, including uh having Vivi K do RPR. You're right down the street.

Craig Fahle 36:55

Uh it makes sense. It makes sense. Okay, so I want to stay on that theme for just a second because um uh you have an opportunity to let people know something here. So so what's one thing that people love about your individual districts that you're in um that takes way more work to protect than people realize a tough one. Put me on the spot a little bit with that one.

The Hidden Work Behind Walkability

Craig Fahle 37:20

I mean, I I think you know, one of the easy things to say that people love about Eastern Market, but is more work.

Katy Trudeau 37:25

It's the Saturday market, I would have to say. What were you gonna say?

Craig Fahle 37:28

I was gonna say tailgate. Tailgating.

Katy Trudeau 37:31

I was gonna say tailgating too, but you know, I don't like to lead with tailgating. No, it makes sense. That makes sense. So it's the Saturday market is not it's actually it's not that it's way more work than people realize. It's just that it's harder to protect this. A lot of work. And we do it every week. And then when you layer on more markets, so right now in June we launch uh we start our Tuesday and Sunday market. So we have three markets a week. And then when you layer on a special event like Eastern Market After Dark, that's four markets a week. And so it's and it's all the it's all the same team of people. And so I it's it's more of it's more thematic than just, oh, Saturday market's way harder than people realize. It's more that it's all the same people, it's a relatively small group of people. They're very good at their jobs, but you know, when there's more demand for more market days, one, it it's almost impossible because there's so much work to be done to deliver those, especially in the summer. But you know, you also you you run the risk of watering down the customer experience. If some I like to say that if somebody thinks, oh, I I gotta get down for Saturday because I have my regular vendor that I need to get to, and if they think that they can get there Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday too, they might just not come at all that week. But if it's just Saturday, they're like, that's their Saturday plan.

Craig Fahle 38:48

And my mom said we had to be down by nine o'clock or else all the good flowers would be gone. That's the way it's I mean it's real.

Katy Trudeau 38:53

So you're what you're doing for and then what you're doing for those businesses is you're getting them a one-day opportunity to maybe have thirty to forty thousand customers as opposed to a four-day opportunity. That's four work days that they got to put in um to maybe have ten thousand visitors over the course of those days. So in any case, um that's one I would say, and yes, Tailgate is um a little known. Uh I think people definitely think it's a lot easier to pull off thanks to the thing.

Craig Fahle 39:19

Yeah, they just think you're just collecting money for people to park.

Katy Trudeau 39:22

Yeah, security, parking, uh all the all of the things that go into Tailgate. Cleanup, yeah. It's a it's a big undertaking. Um, it's an important community experience for Detroit and Metro Detroit. But um, yeah, it they're all kind of part of the same thing, is that you know, when you're good at your jobs, people think it looks easier than it actually.

Craig Fahle 39:42

Here's an opportunity for you to tell people what would be really, really helpful for you as they show up on a Sunday. Um is it simply a matter of like, hey, like like when you're camping, take your trash out with you?

Katy Trudeau 39:52

Yep, that's what I would say. Yeah, just clean up after yourself.

Craig Fahle 39:55

Clean up everybody.

Katy Trudeau 39:56

Everybody, it's a community event. We're all in it together. Yeah, yeah.

Craig Fahle 39:59

Red solo cups are not our state bird every time.

Speaker 2 40:01

Right, yeah.

Craig Fahle 40:02

Um Melanie, I want to ask you the same question. Something that you guys put on here or take care of that is maybe a little bit more difficult to protect than than people realize.

Melanie Markowicz 40:10

Oh well, there's certainly the events. Um that's that's always you know a lot of work behind the scenes. Um as she said, same for us. But another thing that we do over these three square miles uh that we're you know heavily focused on and continue to focus on is you know, one thing that makes Middle so great is the walkability and the you know offerings of you know, restaurant, you know, really unique shops, you know, going to museums, like there's a million things to do here all within walking distance. But one of the things that we do that you may not think about to encourage that is we take care of all kinds of landscaping and maintenance throughout the district, and that you don't know we do. Uh we we steward and uh maintain 10 public parks, uh we take care of all the medi on Woodward and West Grand Boulevard, we take care of a greenway that traverses three neighborhoods, uh we have a dog park, two dog parks actually. Um and then we all the trash cans throughout the streography, we empty those, we empty all the dog waste. Um, so all of these kind of things behind the scenes that you may not think about, it it's not just happening. Uh and it's it's a lot, lot of work. And um, you know, there's a lot of things to be maintained, and then also working on blight remediation when it comes to private property, um, holding the city to task on public infrastructure upgrades and repairs. Um, and it's a constant, constant uh thing that we do, um, so much so that we now have a new director of streetscapes and beautification, and he

Measuring Impact With Data And Feel

Melanie Markowicz 41:55

has his hands full, let me tell you.

Craig Fahle 41:56

I can imagine. Well, I'm gonna finish with this question here real fast. And and um everybody's so metrics focused all the time, but how are you gauging whether or not um your efforts are having the desired effect uh on your areas? How do you how are you measuring that?

Melanie Markowicz 42:14

Oh, so you want to talk about ROI? Yeah, potentially. Potentially? Okay. Um you don't have to get too numbery if you don't want to. Yeah, there's a few metrics like ROI, numbers-based. I mean, you know, population, population growth, um, number of small businesses, openings and closures, um uh visitation throughout the year. How many you know, people came to, you know, this event or you know, the sidewalk sale event, or you know, how many people are visiting us for, you know, on days where we have, you know, concert of colors by the DAA, for example. So, and then number of new developments, housing, number of affordable housing units. Um, so all of those kinds of items. But for me, as somebody who lives here and works here, um, it's really about walkability and joy. Um, and I think that's actually the really great stuff.

Craig Fahle 43:09

So it's not as simple as as Mayor Duggins was like, hey, if the population is bigger than when I got here, then I did something right.

Melanie Markowicz 43:15

Is it it's it's much more than that for our organization. It really is about those softer things that are less you know quantitative but more qualitative. Um it's about increasing quality of life, and it's about talking to your neighbor and you know, somebody you know strolling their baby down the street. So it's those small things that really make all the difference in the work that we do. All right. Katie, last word.

Katy Trudeau 43:38

I mean, ours are, I guess, maybe a little obvious of just our our vendors telling us they're doing they they're having good sales, um, how many visitors we get to our market. Uh it that's harder to count than people realize. So we're always kind of trying to figure out the best tool to get accurate customer counts. But um, are we seeing some growth in that? Um the rumor is Flower Day had more people this year than last year. Same thing with Eastern Market After Dark between 25 and 24. So really trying to just gauge the customer um counts, but also uh, like I said, that that more anecdotal experience or or or um telltale that we're getting from the businesses themselves. That like, oh man, Katie, I we killed it on Saturday. That'll have like I'll drop into businesses and they'll just say they had the best Saturday of the year. And and they never share the numbers with us, but we trust them that it was a really good experience for them. And so we, you know, we a lot of it's kind of word of mouth for us, just the experience we get and the the sort of the warm embrace of the business community for all the work that we're doing. That I think is a huge indicator for us of a positive impact of all the work that we're doing.

Craig Fahle 44:49

All right. Well, we'll have to wrap it up right there. Melanie Markowitz of Midtown Detroit Inc. and Katie Trudeau of Eastern Market. Thank you both for being with us today. Hope that was a fun conversation.

Katy Trudeau 44:58

Yeah, thank you.

Craig Fahle 44:59

All right, well, we always appreciate all of you for checking us out and listening to these conversations. Don't forget, tell your friends about us. I always say this, tell your friends, let them know that we're having these types of conversations about your community um and some stuff that we think just is mat matters and is interesting. So we'll be back. Um, I don't know, couple of weeks probably for now for the next V VK podcast. I'm Craig. See you later.