Jaxon - The Man at My Wedding

(CW: SI, SA) Join our conversation with Jaxon and his experience growing up in a traditional LDS family and attending BYU before coming out as transgender. (Topics include: transgender,  LGBTQ+, trans panic, deconstructing religion, LDS (Mormon) church, BYU, patriarchal blessing, suicidal ideation, body dysmorphia, sexual abuse, depression, anxiety, and lacrosse.)

Transcript

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Brian [00:04:01] There are a lot of things going on. So if you've got a good way to start, great. If not, I was going to suggest, when did you start playing Lacrosse? Ninth grade?

Jaxon [00:04:16] I started playing in seventh grade. 

Brian [00:04:18] Seventh grade. So, what year was that? Yeah. Do the math. 

Jaxon [00:04:23] 2010. Is that right? Yeah, I think so. 

Brian [00:04:28] 12 years?

Jaxon [00:04:28] Yeah, about. I mean, if you could say I still play… 

Brian [00:04:33] Tell me… tell me about that person… 

Jaxon [00:04:35] Yeah. Okay. 

Brian [00:04:36] … that was in seventh grade. What… what was going on? And we don't talk about how lacrosse came into it, but tell me about who that person was. 

Jaxon [00:04:46] Yeah, that person… that person was having a bit of a rough go. I think there were a lot of kind of significant changes to a 12-year-old at that time. It's a little bit of what was going on. I mean, even transitioning into lacrosse was a big thing. I had played sports my whole life. So, that was kind of a transition. New sport, new team. Something I didn't necessarily pick up and was good at immediately the first time I tried it, because lacrosse is not really that way. So, that was… that was kind of a new thing. Also, I had surgery that year. I remember they were kind of unsure about whether or not I had thyroid cancer. There was a little bit of fear going on there, but I didn't. So, that was good. That was a good… a good thing. And then emotionally, I think there is… there's also that big transition period of, oh, I'm going from elementary to junior high and I'm trying to figure out where I fit in this world. And I remember feeling very alone, but like for a lot of different… for a lot of different reasons. 

Brian [00:06:08] Different reasons from who? From your normal teenager that's in seventh grade?

Jaxon [00:06:14] I mean, maybe. I mean, I don't know. I'm sure my personal experiences play into it a little bit. I mean, I am transgender. So, that's… that's something that I had not yet figured out for myself at that time. But looking back, I can see it played heavily into a lot of things. Um, my friendships and relationships with people were kind of hard to navigate. And I didn't… I wasn't entirely sure why. And I remember as well, um, when I was 12, I was abused actually. Sexually abused by a friend’s sibling. So, that was really challenging. But at the time, I remember thinking and this is relating it back to gender and sexuality and all of those things. But growing up, I was raised in the LDS Church. And I remember the verbiage of kind of extramarital sexual sin is second only to murder, you know? Have you… have you heard that? Is that a thing? That's a thing, right? And so, I remember hearing that. And I remember after the first time this incidence of abuse happened, it happened on several occasions. But the first time I remember thinking, okay, can I talk to someone about this? I feel… I feel concerned about it. I feel sick. I feel… I feel like I need help. But who can I talk to? 

Brian [00:07:58] Did you…did you understand what was going on at the time? Or was that part confusing or…?

Jaxon [00:08:03] I… I don't think I fully understood what was… I mean, I understood what was happening and that it was overtly sexual. And… and I understood that much. I think the confusing part for me was, why is this happening? 

Brian [00:08:19] Okay. 

Jaxon [00:08:20] And where does my responsibility lie in it? 

Brian [00:08:22] Yeah. 

Jaxon [00:08:23] And so that's kind of what I was leading to. I got to this point where I felt like I couldn't talk to anyone and it was my fault. And what kind of led me there, my thought process at the time was, okay, if extramarital sexual relations are second only to murder, then my sexual relations with this woman and I was also a woman at the time are equivalent to a massacre. That's how my 12-year-old brain equated the whole situation. 

Brian [00:08:58] You're not ready to deal with that. 

Jaxon [00:08:58] Right. And so, I truly took on the guilt as if I had, you know, committed a murder or some outrageous criminal act or something. And because of that, I didn't tell anyone for a long time. I didn't actually tell anyone at all until I was 16 and had an event that I got triggered. And the person I was with kind of inquired. And then that's when it clicked like, oh, this happened to me. And I just kind of pushed it away and whatever, you know? 

Brian [00:09:36] So when you pushed it away for so long, you kind of just convinced yourself it didn't happen or you forgot about it, or you just done such a good job of ignoring it that it went away for a minute or…? 

Jaxon [00:09:46] Yeah. I mean, kind of all of those things. It was, I had convinced myself it wasn't a big deal. Um, and that…

Brian [00:09:54] Didn't you just say it was next to murder? 

Jaxon [00:09:57] Funny how that works, isn’t it? 

Brian [00:09:59] Right. 

Jaxon [00:10:01] Yeah, I kind of convinced myself, okay, it's not that big of a deal. I've handled it. I can deal with it. I remember very clearly. So, this happened when I was between the ages of 12 and 13. I remember when I was 13, the last time that it happened, I said something before it happened. I said, “I don't want you to touch me”, or something. And the person still did. And then I remember so clearly thinking, I have to save myself. Like no one can save me, no one can help me. I have to save myself. And so, I did. I told the person and the person I was friends with that I couldn't be friends with them and couldn't see them anymore. And that was me saving myself. But that's… that's where I left it. You know, it was save yourself and then push it away because it was your fault anyway. And eventually, you'll get over it, right? And I don't think that's how it works. This might be a shock. 

Brian [00:11:03] You mean that 13-year-old didn't have it all figured out on how to handle this huge trauma in their life?

Jaxon [00:11:08] I know. I know. As much as my 13-year-old self did think that I had it all figured out, I definitely thought so. 

Brian [00:11:17] So from 13 to 16, it kind of went away or you just remembered it from time to time? Or you were just so good at just shoving it down and turning it off and that it wasn't there anymore? 

Jaxon [00:11:29] Yeah. I… up until the last year or so have been incredibly good at compartmentalizing things. And so, I think I just compartmentalized it in a little box, never to be open by me intentionally. 

Brian [00:11:47] Wow. But it got triggered at 16? 

Jaxon [00:11:49] It got triggered at 16. 

Brian [00:11:51] And get triggered since then?

Jaxon [00:11:53] Yeah. So after… after it got triggered that first time, I was a lot more sensitive to those triggers. And I was… at that point, I was able to start addressing them a little closer. Well, not when I was 16, actually. It was more when I was probably 18 or 19 that I started really addressing that and working through it. 

Brian [00:12:20] But you told someone at 16. 

Jaxon [00:12:21] I told someone. A friend of mine. And it wasn't until… I think I was in college before I told anyone else. Family or anyone. Yeah. 

Brian [00:12:34] So your parents didn't know anything about it until you were in college? 

Jaxon [00:12:37] Yes. 

Brian [00:12: 38] You told your friend and your friend at the time when you were 16 was your age? 

Jaxon [00:12:41] Yes. 

Brian [00:12:41] So what are they going to do with this, right? 

Jaxon [00:12:44] Literally nothing. 

Brian [00:12:45] Yeah, right. 

Jaxon [00:12:46] Yeah, there was… there was no one. And to be fair, I was… I was seeing a therapist when I was 16. Well, I had seen a couple. One was a regular therapist that I went and saw one time. We've joked about this. She told me to play more tennis. And I said, “I play lacrosse every day. I don't think that will help.” And then the other therapist was a hypnotherapist, and we were kind of working on some different issues. And also, I had a parent in the room with me at the time, which was good, but also… 

Brian [00:13:22] A little stifling. 

Jaxon [00:13:23] Yeah. So… 

Brian [00:13:24] So do you think these issues that you were seeing a therapist for at the time were that they stem from that incident? Those incidents when you were 12 and 13? 

Jaxon [00:13:32] Um, I think they had to be related. So, I was struggling a lot with depression and anxiety and I had gotten on some medication and that was starting to help. And I started seeing this hypnotherapist for specifically working with the issue of suicidal ideation. And it was super helpful for that. And I think a lot of that did stem from that initial trauma at a young age and in not really knowing how to deal with that, while also feeling confused by my own feelings about gender or gender presentation or romantic attraction or sexual attraction. I think all of those kind of played in to make the perfect storm of me turning it to believing that I was a bad person. And that I somehow maybe ruin people's lives. Because when I… when I left that friendship, I was told I was ruining… ruining their life. And that was something that I carried for a long time. And so, I think it does kind of stem back to that. 

Brian [00:14:55] By the perpetrator or by your friend? 

Jaxon [00:14:58] The perpetrator. 

Brian [00:14:59] You were ruining her life? 

Jaxon [00:15:01] Yes. 

Brian [00:15:05] Man. That's… 

Jaxon [00:15:07] Yeah. It's wild, but at 13… you know? 

Brian [00:15:11] No, I totally get it, right?

Jaxon [00:15:13] How am I going to believe otherwise there's this person older than me who has some sort of authority in a way? 

Brian [00:15:19] Have you seen that person since? 

Jaxon [00:15:22] I have seen them one time at a bar. And I don't know if it was the alcohol or seeing them, but within 2 minutes I did vomit. So, I don't know what was what with that one, but… 

Brian [00:15:44] Yeah. Okay. So, let let's talk a little bit about 16 to 18. Let's talk about those years.

Jaxon [00:15:53] Those are the fun ones. 

Brian [00:15:54] Yeah, let's. Tell me what was going on in your head with all of that. I mean, on top of all the teenage stuff and…  

Jaxon [00:16:01] Yeah. That was that was a very interesting age, I think. Trying to come into adulthood, you know, and all of that. But there was also, like I said, this gender and sexuality thing that I couldn't figure out. So… so when I was 17, I remember I had my first consensual romantic interaction with a woman, someone of the same gender as me at the time. And it was this… it was so weird. It was like, this is everything I have ever wanted. Like, this is what it's supposed to feel like, is how it felt. But then there was also this insane guilt on the… on the other side. And I was good friends with her. And so, it was this weird… I don't know, this weird relationship of we are our absolute best friends and we have this kind of physical attraction for each other. And yet any time we "slip up" or whatever, it's like the end of the world. It is. It's one person's fault or the other's fault or one person pushed too hard or one person…. 

Brian [00:17:25] Did you blame each other or just in your head? 

Jaxon [00:17:28] Like, actually, audibly we blamed each other. Yeah. I mean, there were situations where it was like, oh man, we need to do better or, you know, I need to do better. But yeah, there were such situations where she would blame me or I would blame her or, you know, it just created this… almost like a game where there was this… this kind of reward at the end. This like intimacy that was kind of some sort of reward, but then getting there almost became a game and neither of us communicated about it. It just became this very toxic relationship that was hidden and no one… like there was no third party to talk to about what was going on. We were stuck in a vacuum. And I think that that ends up being the case with actually a lot of queer people and adolescents. They have these kinds of restrictive, hidden relationships that turn very toxic because of that secrecy and that burden. So that's… that's a lot of what was going on. But it's interesting because even at that time when I was being physically intimate with a woman or whatever had recognized that there was some sort of attraction there, I did not accept that I was queer in any way, shape or form. 

Brian [00:18:55] Had you even considered that that was actually an option for anyone at the time? I mean… 

Jaxon [00:18:59] Yeah. I mean… I mean, I knew there were like queer people, you know? 

Brian [00:19:04] But… but what was your opinion of them at the time? 

Jaxon [00:19:06] At the time, my opinion and my thoughts were very much in line with what I had been taught at church was, this is your trial, right? You come to earth, and this is your trial. This is what you have to, you know, go up against. So, it wasn't that I had negative feelings toward queer people necessarily, but I certainly was not supportive in a way that actually means anything. 

Brian [00:19:38] Right. Did you know anyone personally who was queer at the time? 

Jaxon [00:19:42] I knew… trying to think of who I knew was queer at the time and who has come out since. 

Brian [00:19:51] Who they didn't know at the time. Yeah.

Jaxon [00:19:54] I think… I think I knew one queer person and it was actually a former lacrosse coach and that was the only person. 

Brian [00:20:03] And were they out? 

Jaxon [00:20:05] Not to the community that we were together in. Not to the lacrosse community. I mean, they were in their personal life. 

Brian [00:20:15] Okay. 

Jaxon [00:20:16] But not with the…

Brian [00:20:18] But you didn't feel comfortable enough talking to them or saying, “Hey...” 

Jaxon [00:20:23] Well, I mean, I didn't….

Brian [00:20:24] Or you didn't know them well enough for the age difference or whatever? 

Jaxon [00:20:27] Yeah. I mean, there was an age difference and they had moved away and… and it was a whole thing. But I just had never considered that that was an option for me. I had talked and talked my way out of it so many times. It was… even when it was actively happening, I was still, oh, it's just we're best friends. We’re emotionally close. We’re this. We’re that. Um, apparently that's not how it works. I guess when people are straight, no matter how close their friendship is, they don't find that attraction. 

Brian [00:21:02] Yeah. Interesting. 

Jaxon [00:21:03] Interesting how that works. But I didn't know that. I didn't understand that. And so, it wasn't until I was actually 19 years old that I came out to myself as lesbian. Well, bisexual and then lesbian. That's a whole thing, too. It's all a whole thing, Brian. 

Brian [00:21:21] You told me about one experience up in Logan when you were at a movie. Tell me about… tell our listeners about that. Because that to me was just really interesting because I have a hard time understanding how hard it must be to be lost to yourself and to not understand who you are, and to struggle with that basic concept that nobody… very few people on the planet have to think about. 

Jaxon [00:21:50] Right. 

Brian [00:21:51] And to be that lost and for that to be an option and for you to be confused with that, it almost seems like you're in this fight with yourself. You're saying, “Oh, that can't be it, because that's not a thing”, or “That's not me” or that… I mean, there are all kinds of things that you're trained and that you're brought up to believe that covers that up. 

Jaxon [00:22:12] Right. 

Brian [00:22:13] And so, I think that when we first talked about this, I think the question I asked you was, how did you… when did you first know? 

Jaxon [00:22:19] Mm hmm. Yeah. And so, I always interpret that question as like, ‘When did you come out to yourself?’ kind of. Because now, looking back, I can see my first gender dysphoric experience at the age of 3. I have such a clear memory of what this experience was. 

Brian [00:22:40] But you're not going to pick that up at 3, or 12, 13, 16.

Jaxon [00:22:41] But I'm going to take it up at 3 or 12. Even 21, 22, you know? We get there. 

Brian [00:22:48] Exactly. And depending on how… how strict that is in that environment and how much control there is around that, it could be much, much later than that. 

Jaxon [00:22:55] Oh, absolutely. 

Brian [00:22:56] Or never come at all. And it's just a horrible fight with yourself. 

Jaxon [00:23:00] Yeah, exactly. And so, I guess to go back to your question with… with when I came out to myself the first time as… as anything other than straight. I use queer because it's kind of an umbrella term. So, anything other than straight. 

Brian [00:23:16] So at this time, you didn't come out with… you didn't come out with any specificity other than just queer? 

Jaxon [00:23:23] Well, no. I actually didn't use the word queer at the time. That's been since adapted. When I first came out, I used the word bisexual and I will get into that and why I switched to the word queer. But yeah, the movie theater experience is kind of funny because I'm 19 years old. I was dating this awesome guy and we were talking about getting married as, you know, a young LDS woman does at 19. 

Brian [00:23:53] 19, if not 18. 

Jaxon [00:23:54] If not 18. And I was at BYU at the time, and so that was the right next step. And he lived in Logan and it just worked out that I could take my classes online. And so, I moved up to Logan. And lo and behold, a week or two later, we broke up. So, now I was living in Logan. Not a lot going on except a job and some classes. And so, I made some friends. Ended up meeting this girl who… we got close real quick and immediately there was a romantic connection. I mean, almost immediately. And so, that… that relationship kind of progressed. We communicated our feelings to one another. And she… she knew that I was not out and was not really out to myself. And so, it had been maybe a couple months of us, you know, dating and being romantic and physical and all of those things. And it wasn't until we went and saw a movie and the beautiful Jennifer Lawrence came on screen in lingerie in this movie. And I remember so clearly, I thought, “Damn, she's hot!” And then I was like, "Oh, shit, am I gay? Like, do I like girls?" And that was my coming out to myself experience. Like it was Jennifer Lawrence in a megaplex in Logan, Utah, at 19 years old. 

Brian [00:25:23] But it almost… it sounds like you almost had to blindside yourself to get you with your guard down or you would have talked yourself out of it. It needed to be something that just hit you hard and said, “Wait a minute.” 

Jaxon [00:25:32] Yeah. And Jennifer Lawrence did just the trick. Yeah. And it's funny because I went home, you know, I was at the movie with the girl that I was seeing. And I grabbed her hand after and I said, “I have to tell you something”. And she said, “Okay.” I said, "I think I like girls." And she kind of laughed, but also recognized it was a big thing for me. You know, she was very sweet about it. She was like, “Yeah, I think you might be right.” And then from then on, I never looked back. I didn't… I didn't really question it. It was just, yeah. Okay, it's out there. And then… and then we moved on to men being pulled in different directions with the church. I was still kind of half in, half out trying to figure out where I was, this relationship that was new and foreign and very exciting and also felt like the most wholesome and spiritual and good thing I had ever been a part of. So, it was this beautiful experience paired with this negative narrative that this is wrong. And that… that was the most confusing part for me. I remember… I remember just sobbing to God, basically saying, why would you make this feel so right if it's wrong? Like, why would you make this feel exactly the same, if not better, than going to the temple, bearing my testimony, taking the sacrament, whatever, reading the scriptures? All of these things that I had felt good feelings from this was so much more than that. And not in a sexual way. Not in a romantic way. Just in a, oh, this is how you're supposed to be able to connect with another person and love another person and… and feel fulfillment, in conjunction with another person. And that was just totally new and foreign. And it was very confusing to understand why it was so wrong. 

Brian [00:27:44] Did you have any other issues with the church before this? You said you were like half in it. Was it… was it just this issue that you were concerned with or were there any… something else that was working on you, or…? 

Jaxon [00:27:56] No, there were a couple other things. I remember a big one was my freshman year at BYU. I had gone through the whole repentance process for my relationship with this girl in high school and blah, blah, blah, whatever. I decided that I wanted to serve a mission. And so, I went and met with my bishop about it and told him the whole situation. “Hey, this happened in high school. Been through the repentance process. I had my temple recommend”, all of that. And he basically just looked at me and said, “You will never be able to serve a mission. You have had sexual relations with a woman more than once.” What did he say? Yeah. “Sexual relations with a woman more than once. You would need special permission, and I don't think you're special.” That's what he said to me. And I obviously was pretty upset about that. I walked away. That was kind of my first real shaking, you know? And I walked away essentially being told the atonement is infinite and everlasting unless you want to serve a mission. Then it's not good enough, which at that point, what is it good for? What is it good enough for if not good enough for me to go share this thing that I feel like is a good thing at the time, you know? 

Brian [00:29:31] But your testimony and all the other areas at that point was still strong. 

Jaxon [00:29:35] At that point, it was... 

Brian [00:29:37] I mean, you wanted to go on a mission. You wanted to. 

Jaxon [00:29:39] Yes, I wanted to go. And that wouldn't be the first time that I would try to go on a mission. I tried. I tried two times to go on a mission. And the second time I would have been successful if I hadn't started my papers, gone to a wedding, ran into my ex that was my first love in Logan. And then it all came crashing down. And that's when I had the tough conversations with God about, why did you do this? Why is this the way that it is? So I had already started my mission papers at that time, and then it got to the point where I realized there is going to be sacrifice either way. Either I sacrifice my life and my fulfillment with another person and the joy of companionship or I sacrifice a bit of this community, maybe take on a little academic risk, um, and lose some ties to family and friends. And ultimately, I was more willing to give up the ties in the community than my life. So…

Brian [00:31:03] That's an awful predicament to be in. 

Jaxon [00:31:06] It is. And it's one that too many people are put in. 

Brian [00:31:11] And there almost… unfortunately, there almost isn't a right answer. It's going to be incredibly painful and long and permanent scarring, whichever way you choose. 

Jaxon [00:31:20] Yes. It's going to hurt and it's going to keep hurting. At least it has… it has for me. And things have obviously gotten better. And I'm in a much better place now, just personally and with family and friends. But there was a time where it was… it was incredibly challenging. In fact, telling family that I was stepping away from the church was almost harder than telling them that I was queer. 

Brian [00:31:54] And you did it in stages, right? You didn't… 

Jaxon [00:31:57] I mean, it kind of happened all at once. So my parents, I didn't actually… I had been thinking about coming out to them for a while, but they actually both confronted me about it separately two weeks apart without the other one knowing. 

Brian [00:32:13] Really? I hadn't heard that. 

Jaxon [00:32:15] Yeah. So, my mom came to me first. We were about 45 minutes into a ten-hour drive and she… 

Brian [00:32:25] Just the two of you?  

Jaxon [00:32:26] Just the two of us. And she asked me, you know, as they had met this girl, because she was my “Friend”. So she asked me, “Is so-and-so gay?” And I said, “Yes.” And I immediately felt sick. I thought, it's coming. Like now is the time. And then she paused and said, “Okay. Are you two dating?” And I said, “Yes.” And she said, “Okay.” And then the conversation continued a little bit more into how I identify and you know, it went to kind of common questions that people get asked. You know, I'm bisexual. Well, if you have the choice, why don't you choose men or choose women or such and such, which is kind of a silly concept to think of being able to choose the one that you love. I mean, there are choices involved for sure, but not… 

Brian [00:33:25] But to be fair to your mom and to other people that have those same questions, she's been indoctrinated for much longer. 

Jaxon [00:33:34] Oh, 100%. 

Brian [00:33:34] No exposure to and any type of alternate reality. White is white. Black is black. And, you know, we have the one truth, the light, the way. This is it, right? And then there's everything else. 

Jaxon [00:33:48] Right. 

Brian [00:33:49] And so it can be very confusing to someone whose whole life is like, “No, we have the one and only truth, and this isn't it.” 

Jaxon [00:33:58] Mm hmm. Yeah. Oh, for sure. And I completely understand that. I mean, I think that that has… since coming out as transgender to my family, I think that that's been… that's gotten a lot more difficult and confusing because something like sexuality, while incredibly important and a massive part of who someone is, it is different than gender. And it's perceived differently and it's managed differently. And within the church, they're looked at differently as well, I think. And so, I know that that has been a struggle for them. And I understand that. And I think that it's important for people listening to know that if you know transgender people, they understand how hard it is for you. They know that there's a mourning process and that for you, it's like a death. But I just hope that you keep in mind that many of them transitioning was their way to live, you know? That now, you may be mourning as if there was a death, but at least you don't have to mourn a real one. 

Brian [00:35:13] Yeah. And that may have been a very real possibility in so many cases. 

Jaxon [00:35:18] Mm hmm. 

Brian [00:35:35] And you said you were pretty close to that a couple of times. And the suicidal ideation and… 

Jaxon [00:35:41] Mm hmm. Yeah. And there have been several periods throughout my life that I have kind of struggled with that. And, you know, it's highs and lows, but I try to stay on top of it. I do the things I can. I take medication that works great for me and I go to therapy, but external conversation should not be discounted and how it influences and affects people. I mean, just looking at the LDS church, I have a lot of mixed feelings about it. I think a lot of core principles of who I am have stemmed from it. And I think a lot of core things to who I am have stemmed in spite of it, kind of, you know? But I do think that whether people recognize it or not, there is somewhat of a narrative communicated to queer kids in the LDS Church that they are better off dead. And that's a bold statement. And obviously, no one is saying it that explicitly. But when you are taught that “This one thing is a sin to act on and you will be perfected in the next life”, many kids put two and two together and say, “Oh, that means if I make it to the next life. I'll be, you know, fixed. I'll be corrected.”

Brian [00:37:17] Let's get a head start on it. 

Jaxon [00:37:18] “Let's start now.” 

Brian [00:37:20] And the painful process and giving up the relationships and all of those other things that you lose along the way of coming out. Maybe if we're going to just die and start over again is something better as a fixed being, maybe we just do that now and not have to go through all that loss here and go through all… you know?

Jaxon [00:37:43] Yeah. 

Brian [00:37:44] I want to move on to your BYU days. But before I do that, I want to move back a little bit. That 18, 19-year-old up in Logan, who was crying to God saying, “Why does this feel so good when it's such a bad thing? What what's going on?” What would you go back and tell her now? If you could just… if you could just have a minute and just go there and say… just skip forward, give her the answers. 

Jaxon [00:38:17] I think there are a lot of things that I wish I could say to that person now with the knowledge that I have now, that she wouldn't get, right? 

Brian [00:38:32] Well, that's why I want to get to. So, what would you say? And then how would they react to it anyway? 

Jaxon [00:38:36] Right. Well, I think… I think what I would say, I would probably approach it with language that they would understand. And so, I would probably tell them just to directly deal with what was the deeper issue at the time. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not own God. They do not have a monopoly on God. They do not have a right to communication with God or personal revelation through God. Your God is God. It's not the LDS Church is God. It's who God is to you. And that God or omnipotent being is telling you this is right. And you're doing the right thing by stepping away. It's not all here.

Brian [00:39:42] And that's the part that you're hearing. And that's why you're so conflicted, because what you've been told and what you're actually feeling are two different things. 

Jaxon [00:39:49] Yes, it was. It was “God does not exist outside of the LDS Church.” Where now I feel, you know, the LDS church can be a great vehicle to get to know God. I think it can provide tools and… and practices that you can try to, you know, communicate with the spiritual side. But with that also comes a lot of downfalls. And I think that's not necessarily unique to the LDS religion. I think that's just the nature of religion. But it's… I don't know. It makes it hard and confusing. And I want to respect other people’s beliefs. 

Brian [00:40:32] Sure. Absolutely. 

Jaxon [00:40:33] But I also have my qualms, you know?

Brian [00:40:37] So, that person wouldn't have heard that. What would their response have been if somebody had actually told them that at that time? 

Jaxon [00:40:47] At that time. Hmm. I think… I think it probably would have been like you have no authority. Where's your authority? 

Brian [00:41:05] Right. I'm going to rely on the authority I've known and trusted for the past 19 years that has treated me well and my family believes in. And their parents and grandparents and everyone else back generations. 

Jaxon [00:41:19] Mm hmm. 

Brian [00:41:21] It's nice meeting you, stranger, but I'm going to have to go with this because this is the truth. I've stated that several times in my testimony, and I've heard everyone around me stating it and… 

Jaxon [00:41:32] Mm hmm. 

Brian [00:41:33] I'm not ready to see that or believe that. 

Jaxon [00:41:36] Right. Yeah. And that was the struggle forever. I knew... I knew that that's how I felt deep down was, there's not… as much as people like to say the Church is for everyone, there's not really a place for everyone. And doctrinally there's not the answers that people think that there are or maybe people think that there are answers and there actually are answers and they just don't want to believe them because they are not in line with what they want to believe is true coming from the LDS Church. Yeah, that was tangential. 

Brian [00:42:18] Okay. So, that person ended up trying to go on a mission two more times?

Jaxon [00:42:24] One more time.

Brian [00:42:24] One more time?

Jaxon [00:42:25] One more time. So I was in Logan. Um, moved home in about May, worked for the summer, and was at the crossroads of, do I go back to BYU or do I date this woman and go to Utah State and whatever, you know? And so, I prayed about it a lot. And eventually came to the conclusion that I needed to go back to BYU and try to go back to church. And a lot of the reasoning behind that was due to my patriarchal blessing. And a line in it that talked about children. And I was like, okay, it's those kids. That's why I'm in it. That's why I'm staying in the church, so that I can get those kids.

Brian [00:43:26] How powerful is that written document?

Jaxon [00:43:30] Insanely powerful. It's kind of weird. I mean, the further you get away from it, the weirder it gets.

Brian [00:43:39] I mean, for those listeners that aren't familiar with that doctrine in the LDS Church, it's kind of considered a personal scripture. It's a blessing given through a patriarch from God directly to you. Is that right? And interpreting it that way, it's your own personal scripture. How do you walk away from your own personal scripture? 

Jaxon [00:44:00] Yeah. 

Brian [00:44:00] This is something God told you. 

Jaxon [00:44:03] Mm hmm. And I mean, I got my patriarchal blessing when I was 14. And so, this is what God told me as a 14-year-old. Yeah, it's going to stick for a while. 

Brian [00:44:20] Wow. Okay. So, you're forced with that decision. 

Jaxon [00:44:25] Mm hmm. 

Brian [00:44:26] And you chose BYU, and the church. 

Jaxon [00:44:28] Chose BYU and the Church. 

Brian [00:44:29] And you turned your back again on yourself. 

Jaxon [00:44:33] On myself. 

Brian [00:44:34] And… 

Jaxon [00:44:36] And the girl that I was dating that loved so much and Logan. 

Brian [00:44:40] And that feeling that you knew was the best thing ever. 

Jaxon [00:44:43] Mm hmm. 

Brian [00:44:44] And you thought that can't be right, because I have a piece of paper that says something about children. 

Jaxon [00:44:51] Mm hmm. And there also… there was a line in there that said something. I can't remember word for word. Something about, “You'll marry a man who loves you, who you love.” And I was like, okay, well, God says that I'll love him. So, I guess there’s someone out there. Some dude, you know? 

Brian [00:45:11] Have you ever heard of a patriarchal blessing that says you'll meet another woman that you'll love and…?

Jaxon [00:45:17] No. 

Brian [00:45:18] Yeah. I haven't heard of those. 

Jaxon [00:45:20] Weird. I wish. 

Brian [00:45:22] Right? Okay. Back at BYU. 

Jaxon [00:45:27] Back at BYU. 

Brian [00:45:28] And there was a period of time, and if I'm missing some time and some period you want to cover, let me know. Playing lacrosse again? 

Jaxon [00:45:36] Yeah. So, I got back to BYU. Um, what year was I in? Maybe my junior year. I was there for five years, so I had two senior years. I was there for my junior year. And had started going back to church. Temple recommend. Got it back. Whatever. Feeling good. Uh, had a calling. 

Brian [00:45:58] You had your endowments taken out? 

Jaxon [00:46:00] No. 

Brian [00:46:00] Okay. So, this is just baptism. 

Jaxon [00:46:02] Baptism. Yeah. And so... 

Brian [00:46:07] So you're right back in true believing. 

Jaxon [00:46:09] Yeah, right back in... 

Brian [00:46:10] All that other stuff. What was I thinking? That wasn't me. Who was that doing all that?

Jaxon [00:46:14] Well, and it was still… there was still this longing for it that I recognize that that was good, but I can't have it. I just… I wasn't allowed. 

Brian [00:46:24] It's not there. It's not a thing. 

Jaxon [00:46:25] It's not a thing. So, there was still… it wasn't like a staunch. Like I don't know how to explain it. It was almost like I was just giving in. There wasn't…

Brian [00:46:44] You're following the easiest path that you've been told is the right path. And you got tired of fighting it and you're like, you know, whatever. Let's just do it. A mission, whatever. Find that man and let's get married and have babies. 

Jaxon [00:46:57] Exactly. It was it was the path of least resistance, to be quite frank. And so, yeah. I was meeting with my bishop weekly and then…. 

Brian [00:47:04] Well, how many people would you have to fight to go the other direction? All of your friends, your families, your bishop, the ward, everybody at BYU. I mean, you were fighting everyone. 

Jaxon [00:47:17] The person that I was dating, his family. They were against it wholeheartedly as well. It's just… it felt like it would have been me against the world if I knew I had friends who, you know, would have been supportive, who kind of… kind of knew. But it really felt like so, so much of a risk. And then, um, eventually, once I just decided I couldn't do it anymore, Um, yeah, it hurt for a while and it was hard. But I also started feeling better very quickly. So, it was really hard at first. Um, and then the fruits of my labors were brought to my attention. And I started really enjoying the life that I was, that I was building. And the new freedom. I had to explore my own beliefs and what actually felt true to me, just for the sake of feeling true and good and feeling right and not feeling externally guided necessarily. 

Brian [00:48:26] What opened that gate? 

Jaxon [00:48:30] Um. I think it was… it was a process. So, it was kind of the initial decision of, I am going to allow myself to walk away. So, I gave myself that permission. But then there was still kind of in the back of my mind, what if they're right? What if it's true? And honestly, it wasn't until I read the ‘CES Letter’ and started kind of researching some of those things that I was like, okay, in my mind, this is clear enough that this was founded on what I feel are falsities, essentially. And so, it was a lot easier for me to let go of that ‘What if’ and just dove into what do I feel? What do I believe? What makes sense to me? 

Brian [00:49:31] So I'm going to try to summarize it. Tell me if I… how close I get to it. Back when you were 19, you were still believing all of this. And your biggest concern was this feeling, this amazing thing of what you've now learned is now love. 

Jaxon [00:49:48] Mm hmm. 

Brian [00:49:49] That is, it couldn't have been love. So, it's just… it's temptation. It's just that you're broken. It's… whatever it is. That was your biggest… that was your only real concern with the doctrine of the church. 

Jaxon [00:50:06] Yes. At that time. 

Brian [00:50:07] So you struggle with that for a while and you beat yourself up pretty good. And at some point, you start to question, well, what if that other thing is the real thing? What if that that really is love, and that's what it is? What would that mean? And you open your mind to say, well, what else might I be wrong about or they have been wrong about or whatever? And you become a little bit more flexible of thinking, well, what are these other things that people are having issues? And you start to notice those and you're like, oh my gosh, oh, my gosh. And you're turning the pages like one after another. And there's just that the floodgates are open. And it's like, how have I missed all of this? 

Jaxon [00:50:45] Mm hmm. 

Brian [00:50:46] And I just thought it was this one thing for so long. But I think you just get to that one point where it's like, okay, you can ignore the one thing. You can ignore the one thing. But that one just got to the point where you're struggling with it and just thought, well, maybe if this is right. Maybe there's something else that I'm missing. And when you look for that, you find it in abundance. 

Jaxon [00:51:08] Yeah. 

Brian  [00:51:10] And that 19-year-old was not willing to look for it. Was not considering that. 

Jaxon [00:51:15] Well, and… and it's interesting, too. Because any research really into the church that could potentially yield negative results is viewed as anti-Mormon literature. Yes. No matter the truthfulness of it. If you are seeking history outside of… 

Brian [00:51:38] Even if it's posted on the church website, on the church documents, you can… you can find all of that information. 

Jaxon [00:51:46] On the… yeah, on the church website. But it's still anti-Mormon literature. Yeah. 

Brian [00:51:54] Also known as history. 

Jaxon [00:51:55] Yeah. a.k.a. So, there was also this guilt with questioning the Church at all.

Brian [00:52:04] Doubt your doubts. 

Jaxon [00:52:05] Doubts your doubts before you doubt your faith.

Brian [00:52:07] That's right. Right. But we don't… can't understand all things. 

Jaxon [00:52:11] Yep. Exactly. And I think that yes, obviously, no one has all the answers for everything that is unrealistic. But there are some things that either the answers have been posted by the Church Leadership and people don't want to believe them. For example, a lot of people talk to me since I am transgender about the family proclamation to the world. And they say, “Oh, well, gender is used.” Which is not sex, right? So they're not talking biological sex. This is your gender. This is eternal. Your gender is eternal. You are a man. You are eternal. And I'm like, yes, I am not. Because the church said so. Because they actually explicitly stated in a conference talk that they were referring to biological sex when they wrote that document. So, there are things even currently in the church that a lot of people struggle within the church and I think make answers for or make lack of answers for just to stay, to hold on to the other things. 

Brian [00:53:21] Yeah. So, think of all the things you left behind you in the church. When you left the church, what did it cost you? What did… what was the loss with that? You said you took some things with you. What were the things that you left behind?

Jaxon [00:53:39] Hmm. You have a built-in community everywhere you go. That's a big loss. And that was… 

Brian [00:53:45] And they weren't interested in you when you said you're not going to church anymore? That was just… the doors were shut?

Jaxon [00:53:52] I mean, it was more with the situation I was in at BYU. I had to shut the door myself. 

Brian [00:53:59] Okay. 

Jaxon [00:54:00] Because if I was not going to church, I could not attend the university. So, luckily COVID came in clutch. And no one could go to church. So, that worked out great for me. 

Brian [00:54:13] Did you have to click the link? 

Jaxon [00:54:15] I mean, if they tracked it, they still gave me my endorsement. So... But, um, yeah. I don't remember where I was going. I lost my train of thought. 

Brian [00:54:26] It's okay. 

Jaxon [00:54: 27] I forgot what I was talking about.

Brian [00:54:28] Let me ask you about the week where the church said it was okay to… to come out and it's okay to be who you are. And then they said, oh, no. You were on campus that week when they made that little sandfishes did you experience that? 

Jaxon [00:54:44] I sure was. That was a shit show. Am I allowed to say swear words? Because I've been saying swear words. 

Brian [00:54:54] Yes. We call it natural language. 

Jaxon [00:54:55] Yeah. Good. I love that. Gorgeous. Yeah. It's a shit show for sure. The most terrible PR nightmare I've seen. Just from, like, a communication standpoint. But as a queer student, I was… I was at BYU at the time. And I remember they just didn't say anything. They just posted a new honor code and didn't… didn't say anything. No one said anything about it. So, we read it. Everyone notices… everyone who applies to, notice it. 

Brian [00:55:30] Would anyone have noticed if they just change something else in the honor code? I mean, it's not like you read it regularly, right? 

Jaxon [00:55:34] Yeah. No. 

Brian [00:55:36] But somebody is going to notice and say, “Paragraph three.” 

Jaxon [00:55:40] Right. But somebody… somebody is going to notice when there's an entire clause missing on homosexuality, right? So they took out any language about homosexuality, same sex, same gender attraction, anything like that. They took it out. And so, obviously that caused a lot of confusion. What does this mean? It's not written in the rules. Does that mean we can do all of this? And so, a lot of people called the Honor Code Office, I included. I called because I was dating a woman at the time and I was very excited to share her with the world and to share this part of my life with my friends. 

Brian [00:56:16] Despicable. 

Jaxon [00:56:17] I know, disgusting. And so, I called and they said, “Yep, date, hold hands, kiss. Just follow law of chastity like a straight student. 

Brian [00:56:28] From the honor code office? 

Jaxon [00:56:29] From the Honor code office. And so, I said, “Hell yeah.” Posted that I was dating someone. Super stoked about it. Was met honestly with nothing but support from my teammates and… and all of that. And then we had two weeks of bliss and lots of queer kissing on campus. And it was a beautiful, lovely. And then they released the clarification statement from CES that basically said… I don't remember verbatim, but essentially, these relationships don't lead to eternal happiness and they're against doctrine. Therefore, they're still against the rules. And so, that was incredibly disheartening. It also felt malicious and somewhat intentional. Whether it was, I have no idea. But it did feel intentional. I know a lot of people felt like they were trying to out people or whatever. And there were some protests on campus. I mean, not really protests. Some gatherings on campus. And they made it even more clear how rampant homophobia is on… on BYU’s campus. I mean, you have groups like dozen acts that are threatening to bring guns and kill people all in the name of the Lord. And… and people just say, “Oh, you're being dramatic.” But I literally have screenshots of like people tweeting, “Hey, I'll be at campus tomorrow. Make sure to bring your AK 47.” Like it's not… And whether they would or not, who actually knows? But you can't… you can't look at me and tell me that language like that is not incredibly damaging and hurtful. 

Brian [00:58:30] Terrifying.

Jaxon [00:58:31] And something that quite honestly the university should be a lot more concerned about. Because…

Brian [00:58:37] I think there are a lot of things on that list that don't quite get up to the priority. 

Jaxon [00:58:41] Mm hmm. As long as football's up there, that's what matters. 

Brian [00:58:46] Not lacrosse. 

Jaxon [00:58:48] No, no. They didn't care about us. 

Brian [00:58:50] They didn’t get the love? 

Jaxon [00:58:50] They didn’t care about us that much. Now, they liked us. So. there was that… back to the story, back to lacrosse. There were those two weeks of bliss. Lovely. And then they released the clarification. And I talked to my coach about it. And this was the hardest part of the whole thing. I went to my coach, talked to her about it and she said she wasn't really sure what to do, but she would have to talk to administration about me or I could step down from the team. And so, I had one year left. I was in my first senior year. And I had one year left. And the last four years in time and money and classes weren't worth giving it all up for lacrosse. And so, I stepped down from the team. It was incredibly difficult for me. That was really the foundation of my peer group at that time. And I was also working a lot. And so, that was… that was my social hour. It was my… it was my physical exercise. It was my social hour. It meant so much to me, the sport and the team. And I had also, just a week before been cleared to play because I had had some hip surgeries. And so, I had just gotten back. And then it felt like it was taken away.

Brian [01:00:17] The hits just keep coming.

Jaxon [01:00:17] They just keep coming. Yeah. 

Brian [01:00:20] So if she had talked to administration, what would have happened? 

Jaxon [01:00:25] It's hard to know, but they likely would have had a conversation with the honor office because that's what it was about. 

Brian [01:00:32] And they wouldn't remember what they told you. 

Jaxon [01:00:33] Right. No. That would be absurd.

Brian [01:00:35] I don't know who that was. No. 

Jaxon [01:00:37] Weird. Um, yeah. So, there would have been a discussion with the honor code office. I don't know how they would have approached it. I don't know if they would have been lenient because of their wrongdoings that I know they recognized. I know that they knew they messed up. Um, I don't know how it would have been handled, but it ultimately wasn't worth the risk that I would have taken on to keep playing. So, it was sad. It was really sad. 

Brian [01:01:05] Yeah, for sure. So now, bring us up to speed. Up to the current day. 

Jaxon [01:01:10] Up to current day. 

Brian [01:01:11] Last… last year down at BYU. 

Jaxon [01:01:13] Okay. Last year at BYU. I was dating someone, dating someone new. And I remember it was in probably February or so of 2021. And I was in between jobs and I didn't have a lot going on. One day I was like, I'm doing it. I am going and buying my pair or myself a pair of men's joggers. 

Brian [01:01:45] Whoa. 

Jaxon [01:01:46] I know.

Brian [01:01:47] Can they even sell those to you down in Utah County?

Jaxon [01:01:49] I don't know. I don't know. I figured out a way to get them. 

Brian [01:01:53] Black market. 

Jaxon [01:01:54] Mm hmm. Almost.

Brian [01:01:54] Amazon

Jaxon [01:01:55] Also known as the Target men's section. So, I went to Target. Got myself a pair of joggers and little boys boxers because I had a small frame and that's what fit. And so, put them on, looked in the mirror. My hair was back in a braid. I had a beanie on, button up flannel. And I…. that was it. I mean, that was my gender euphoric experience. 

Brian [01:02:18] Oh, finally.

Jaxon [01:02:19] Finally, right? And it was like after all of those years of looking in the mirror or walking past a window and seeing a stranger and being caught off guard and feeling really sick about it, I looked in the mirror and saw someone that was recognizable at a minimum. And that was… it was strange. I remember getting emotional and feeling kind of weird about it. Like, kind of really good, but also uncomfortable. And also very afraid for what it meant. 

Brian [01:02:55] Hmm. 

Jaxon [01:02:56] What the ramifications of that recognition of the person in the mirror would mean, that was a big concern. Because then it's panic. It's all trans panic of, I'm trans, what do I do? Does this mean I'm trans? My family just got a little more comfortable with me being queer, and I'm still at BYU. And what do I do, you know? Am I even trans? Am I making this up? Why didn't I know before now? There are so many things that go through your head. 

Brian [01:03:30] How do you... Yeah, how do you know that for sure? When you didn't know who… you thought you knew who you were last year and you thought you knew who you were the year before that. And you thought you knew who you were the year before that and… 

Jaxon [01:03:39] Mhm. 

Brian [01:03:39] That's not quite you. There's something, if you look back in retrospect, you'll say. oh no, something was off. 

Jaxon [01:03:45] Yeah. 

Brian [01:03:46] And I was fighting it, I was ignoring it. I was pretending. It was off. It was off. It was off. No, it was just whatever. And you're just in this fight with yourself. 

Jaxon [01:03:56] Mm hmm. Yeah. And it's…

Brian [01:03:57] … your own reflection. 

Jaxon [01:03:59] It literally is your own reflection. I mean I remember talking… when I first started talking about it in therapy, I first thought maybe I'm non-binary, I don't… I don't know, I'm going to try out they/them pronouns with some close friends and see how that goes. But when I first started talking about it, um, I was kind of talking about it in that realm. And they were kind of like, well, why? Why would you know? Why would you have any reason to know that. No one has once told you that would be okay. No one has ever said they thought it's a good idea. Even after you come out, probably not a lot of people are going to say that. Why would you? Why would you know that you're trans? There's no way that you're really going to be able to know unless it just comes from you. Like you're not going to get feedback on it. 

Brian [01:04:57] You could ask your bishop. 

Jaxon [01:04:58] I think that he would have loved that. I think he would have really enjoyed that experience. 

Brian [01:05:04] He'd have the answer in your patriarchal blessing. 

Jaxon [01:05:07] Yeah. Plot twist. I'm the man that loves me at my weddings. And I love him.

Brian [01:05:16] It does have a happy ending with a little twist though. 

Jaxon [01:05:21] It does. Yeah. And so, you know, it went from this this great fear and trans panic always to like… I feel a lot better about it now, but... 

Brian [01:05:31] Describe that to me. 

Jaxon [01:05:34] I mean, it's… it's been it's been the last year or so. And it's… there was the panic before telling anyone just inside about being afraid of telling people, how are they going to respond and all of that. And then… and then you get over that hump. And then there's the fear of, well, what if I change my mind? Because that's what everyone else is telling me. “What if you change your mind?” And there would be times where I would freak out about it and say, what if I change my mind? No, I'm ruining my life. I just threw my life away. I would not sleep because I would be panicking about this thing. And then there would be other days where I'd be so much just higher up on the surface and be like, I'll get off the hormones. I'll do like breast implants or something. Like, realistically, what does it change? I'm the same person. And so…

Brian [01:06:30] Thank You. 

Jaxon [01:06:32] Like, sure. I'll have boobs or not, but you know, I'm doing what is going to make me feel the best and most aligned in my skin. And labels honestly are… I have this weird relationship with them because in some ways it's like it feels so good to find one that fits. And then on the other hand, it's like, well, they're so stupid because I have masculine qualities. I have feminine qualities. 

Brian [01:06:59] As does everyone. 

Jaxon [01:07:00] As everyone does. The only reason I have this divine masculine per se is because that's how I feel all of my things. Whether they're masculine and feminine, I just I feel them in a way that aligns more masculine to me. But even that is an arbitrary word. So it's… it's this weird dichotomy of labels are everything, and labels are the bane of my existence.

Brian [01:07:24] Yeah. 

Jaxon [01:07:25] Um, yeah, there was that. That whole confusing thing of, you know, well, what if I ruin my life and what label fits and what doesn't? And all of these other people who are telling me this is so hard for them. And they're just struggling so hard with this, and then that's triggering that little 12-year-old self that says you're a life ruiner and you're making everyone's lives hard. And then… so, there was a low, a very low point after I came out for about, I would say after I came out to everyone publicly, family, social media as trans. Probably for about four or five months, I was in a really, really low spot where I just didn't really want to exist. I felt like my existence was just harming people. And that's what was being communicated to me by a lot of people. Not that that was their intention. um, but that's all I heard right at the time. And I felt very alone. I felt like there…

I felt like other people who were struggling with me being transgender were all struggling together. And I was struggling alone.

Brian [01:08:54] Yeah. And they're not just people. They're everyone you've known your whole life that you rely on, that you've listened to, that you've loved, that you've… your whole tribe, it's everybody. 

Jaxon [01:09:08] Right. And it felt like I lost… I lost my team, you know, once again. So, that that was really challenging for a while. And it still is. But seeing how much better I feel after embracing who I really am and being honest with the world about my transness, has made it worth it. I mean, yes, it's still hard and it hurts a lot still, but I feel so much better and I can't even describe it. I don't feel like two separate people anymore. My brain feels like the same person all the time. My body feels aligned with my brain more so than it ever has. In fact, I didn't know that it was actually possible to feel that alignment. I thought people just had a separation of body and mind that could never be joined.

Brian [01:10:07] Because that was your reality for your whole life.

Jaxon [01:10:08] That was my reality for my whole life. And it's been quite a beautiful experience having those two pieces of me join and just kind of become one. I feel like I exist more now than I ever have, if that makes sense. 

Brian [01:10:30] Yeah. It’s… you've finally identified your core self and allowed yourself to be that core self. 

Jaxon [01:10:38] Yes. 

Brian [01:10:40] You said it still hurts. What about it hurts? Just the fact that people are still questioning? They're not supportive. You’re doubting yourself still? 

Jaxon [01:10:52] I mean, doubts come in. They come and go, you know? But it's less a matter of ‘Am I trans?’ And more a matter of ‘Can I do this my whole life?’ Like, can I fight for myself my whole life? Can I deal with people not understanding or not wanting to be around me or feeling uncomfortable or whatever for my whole life? That's more of what the question is, um, and less of, is this actually really who I am? Because the answer is yes. And so, yeah. I think… I think what's still hard is that most people in my life are very good about trying to understand. And honestly, most people in my life are just super awesome allies and very good with pronouns and name. But some people still struggle. Um, and I think the hardest part, I was thinking about this a lot the other night of like, why do I feel uncomfortable around them or unwelcome per se when they don't… they don't even necessarily say anything wrong or do anything wrong? But it's that internal ‘I know you disagree’ essentially with this life style’, if you can call it that. I mean, you can't… you can't disagree with who someone is. So, it's just such a weird thing, right? Like, you can't disagree with someone existing. But they do. 

Brian [01:12:32] You can when you're right about things. When you're right and you have the truth, then you can disagree with things that are blatantly, obviously right there. You can disagree with it. 

Jaxon [01:12:41] Right. And so, it's that weird… I don't know. Just this… I don't even know how to I don't even know how to explain it. It's ‘I'm not really going to feel supported by you until you actually support me.’ 

Brian [01:12:48]Mm hmm. That pretend. 

Jaxon [01:12:49] Yeah. And the pretend… I don't want to like disregard that, because I understand you can't just change your mind about how you feel about something overnight. So if you are making those efforts to be loving and welcoming, that does not go unnoticed by me. And it's very much appreciated. However, it's not the panacea. It's not going to fix everything. And it's not necessarily going to make me want to be around. I want to be around people who want to be around me as Jaxon, who see me as Jaxon and love me as Jaxson. And not those who see me as my former self and are maybe trying to work with some words, you know? One of those groups definitely feels much better, to be sure than the other. 

Brian [01:13:51] Yeah, it feels like your family again. 

Jaxon [01:13:54] Mm hmm. 

Brian [01:13:56] Your team. 

Jaxon [01:13:57] Mm hmm. 

Brian [01:14:02] So, advice to people that are trying to support someone that's going through similar situations. 

Jaxon [01:14:11] Just… I mean, recognize, it's not about you. 

Brian [01:14:19] Sure. You've got some things you'll have to figure out. That's not what this is about. 

Jaxon [01:14:23] Yeah. As difficult as those things can be and being close to someone who is transitioning, as challenging as that can be, I can almost guarantee it does not compare to the challenges that they are facing. So, I know that it's hard. And I know there's a mourning process. And I feel like people should let themselves feel that. It's not helpful to let the transgender person see that, in my opinion. I mean, it just will make them feel more weight. 

Brian [01:14:59] More weight. 

Jaxon [01:15:00] It's more weight for them to carry. Because as much as you can say it's not your burden to carry, they'll feel like it is. It's them. If they didn’t want to share that part with the world. they could have chosen not to. 

Brian [01:15:11] Just be quiet and we would have got along just fine, blissfully. Do you have many long-term relationships that have been there for you through it all? Or do you find that most of the people that you prefer to be around with now are people you've met recently? 

Jaxon [01:15:30] Most people are people I've met recently. Yeah, I have maybe… I have no real close, close friends that have like been around for it all, that I still see a lot. We’ll chat sometimes. But most of… most of the close people that I see now are people I've met more recently, either since coming out as queer or coming out as transgender. And it's just easier. 

Brian [01:16:02] Yeah. 

Jaxon [01:16:02] It's nice when people only know me as Jaxon. 

Brian [01:16:06] Yeah. 

Jaxon [01:16:07] You know?

Brian [01:16:08] Well, I have to say. So I've known you for, what? 10 years? 12 years? 

Jaxon [01:16:14] I would say 12, if that's when I started playing. 

Brian [01:16:17] Yeah. So, I still see the same person. 

Jaxon [01:16:22] Yeah. 

Brian [01:16:23] And I feel very fortunate that I can still see the same person. I see a little more confidence now. I see a little more… what's the right word? I think there's a little more integrity, a little more certainty maybe. It is really the biggest change. I've heard… talking to you, I've heard more of taking yourself as your own source instead of relying on what's out there, what people say or what is written or what has been said. Looking more to your own God. You get to decide. You are you and the rest of it just doesn't even matter. 

Jaxon [01:17:16] Yeah. I mean, it's like Glennon Doyle says in ‘Untamed’. Basically, God is in me. And that's how I feel essentially.

Brian [01:17:25] Yeah. I also have to say I can't forget this. I look at my sheet of questions here. I don't think we got to any of them, but in a sense, we covered all of it. But I want to say how much I appreciate our lunches. 

Jaxon [01:17:37] Oh, yeah. Me too. I love them. 

Brian [01:17:39] You are the main reason that I'm doing this. The very main reason. I enjoyed our conversation so much and I mentioned being honest and vulnerable and brave. I got those from you. Those are those conversations that you are willing to have with me and sit down and have these types of discussions and just be open and just being your true self. It has helped me become the Brian that I've missed for 15 years. And I really want to thank you for that. And I know it's been a rough freaking 12 years for you, but thank you for letting me meet with you on a regular basis. 

Jaxon [01:19:51] I agree. 

Brian [01:19:51] I love seeing how much people have changed since they were back in high school or seventh grade or whatever. I think you guys are… I think you're amazing. And I'm just seeing everything people are doing with their lives. I'm like, that is fantastic. I told you when I had my shoulder surgery. I was in the hospital and one of the nurses came in and it was my nurse. And then another nurse came in and said, “I'm not really your nurse, but I just wanted you to know that I was here. I am a nurse. I'm just not assigned to you today.” It was A.S. one of my former lacrosse players. She's a nurse at the hospital now. 

Jaxon [01:20:26] That’s so cool. 

Brian [01:20:27] And I'm like, yeah, I'd like… tell me your story. What have you been up to? She was like, well, “I've got work to do. I do have other patients.” 

Jaxon [01:20:35] Ah, that's funny. Yeah. I'm willing to bet I've changed the most out of all of them at least physically. I don't know. 

Brian [01:20:44] You know, I don't know if change is the right word. I think acknowledgment and acceptance. 

Jaxon [01:20:48] Yeah, that's true. That's a good point. 

Brian [01:20:51] Right? I mean, you said yourself, you can look back on a lot of things and think, I saw when I was three. 

Jaxon [01:20:56] Yeah. 

Brian [01:20:57] Obviously a three-year old's not picking up on those cues. And either a 13 year old or a 16 year old or an 18 or 19 year old. It's… because it's not a thing. 

Jaxon [01:21:06] It's just not an option. 

Brian [01:21:07] It's not. It’s…no. 

Jaxon [01:21:08] Even if you know it's a thing. I remember in high school I had the thought, oh, I'm probably trans, but I don't want to be a short man, so I'll never transition. And that was it. Like that was the first time. 

Brian [01:21:18] Really? You had that thought? 

Jaxon [01:21:19] I'm not kidding. I was walking to English class. Like, I remember this vividly. I was walking in the halls of Viewmont High thinking, oh, I'm probably trans, but I'll never transition because I don't want to be a short man. And that was it. Like that was when it came to my mind... 

Jaxon [01:21:36] And then you put it right back down.

Jaxon [01:21:36] … with that language. And it was right back down. And I remember I thought about this the other day, too. Like when I was ten, my parents had some show on TV and it was showing a trans man who was a bodybuilder. And I remember seeing his chest scars and thinking, could I do that? And then they changed the channel because they were like, “Oh, don't watch that and change the channel.” And I forgot about that for a really long time and just remembered it like a few weeks ago. 

Brian [01:21:59] Really?

Jaxon [01:22:00] I was like, oh, that was probably my first transgender exposure. 

Brian [01:22:05] It is the thing. I saw it just for a second on that other channel... 

Jaxon [01:22:08] Just for a second, I saw that thing

Brian [01:22:09] …it was there for a second, and it's a real thing. 

Jaxon [01:22:10] That guy was doing pull ups and he had… he said that he was born a woman. Yeah, I remember. 

Brian [01:22:18] Wow. That's weird. You get good memory. Well, yeah. We've covered most of these. There were a few that I didn't want to… Oh, we'll have to get to that one. Um, okay. I guess two questions. Where are you going to be 5 to 10 years from now? What's your… what's your goal? Let's look forward for a second. 

Jaxon [01:22:44] Okay. Well, with all of the changes that happened in my life, the only goals I can make are two things. One, I want a garage. Two, I want a backyard. And so hopefully in 5 to 10 years, I'll be there. Outside of that, who knows? I would anticipate I'll probably still be a man. Who knows? I mean, like, I can't see the future, you know? 

Brian [01:23:14] If you had told me five years ago where it was now, there's no way. 

Jaxon [01:23:18] Yeah, I'd have been way off. Yeah, way off for sure. And so, you know, probably still a man. Hopefully a garage, a backyard. 

Brian [01:23:25] What's in your garage? What do you need a garage for? Just a place to park your car and keep it clean or what? 

Jaxon [01:23:30] Oh, I don't even know if there’ll be room for the car. 

Brian [01:23:32] There you go.

Jaxon [01:23:34] It’s tools and motorcycles and projects and toys and... 

Brian [01:23:36] When was the last time you rode a motorcycle? Remember when you sold the one in high school and you hated to see it go? 

Jaxon [01:23:44] The last time, I rode one was actually just a couple of weeks ago, a very short distance. I was working on a friend's bike and I took it for a little test ride. But that's… other than that, it's been probably close to a year, maybe a little less than a year. 

Brian [01:24:04] So, that's going to come back around. 

Jaxon [01:24:05] Yeah, we'll see. I don't know. I mean, I have top surgery to save for now instead of a motorcycle. So... 

Brian [01:24:11] Yeah. And that's scheduled. 

Jaxon [01:24:13] That's scheduled. 

Brian [01:24:14] August? 

Jaxon [01:24:15] August. Yeah. So, I also will have yeeded the teats in five years. So, that's very exciting for me. So, those are at least the three things. 

Brian [01:24:26] And a backyard. Three big things. 

Jaxon [01:24:27] Four if you count, you know, both the teats. 

Jaxon [01:24:33] So that's my 5-year… 5, 10 year plan. 

Brian [01:24:39] All right. And the last one, I thought… this is something I just came up with just… and I might have to use this again. The LDS Church has just come out with a new tradition that when people leave the church, they get to give a farewell talk. 

Jaxon [01:24:52] Is that real? 

Brian [01:24:53] No. 

Jaxon [01:24:54] Oh. 

Brian [01:24:55] What would you say in your talk? Can you imagine? Are you serious? Come on.

Jaxon [01:24:58] I was like what kind of attempt is this? 

Brian [01:25:02] Yeah. So, what would you say? 

Jaxon [01:25:10] I'd like to bear my testimony that… I know. No, I would just… I don't know. I would say, God is mine and he is yours and he belongs to us. But not the patriarchy and not the LDS church. And Jennifer Lawrence is the perfect person to help you realize your queer. And you're not going to like coffee the first time you try it, but just give it some time and experiment. And you will likely find something that you like. 

Brian [01:27:17] All right. Well, you have anything you want to close with? A prayer or anything? Closing hymn? 

Jaxon [01:27:21] We could. I don't know. I would have to come up with a new hymn, probably. I don't know. But, yeah. Thanks for having me. 

Brian [01:27:31] Oh, one more thing I want to ask you. I was lacrosse season? How was that experience for you? 

Jaxon [01:27:35] It was… it was great. 

Brian [01:27:36] Was it what you thought? Okay.

Jaxon [01:27:37] Yeah, it was awesome. I think there was like that kind of adjustment period. Also, the first time I've really interacted with parents since coming out as transgender, which was I was a little worried about. 

Brian [01:27:53] I was worried about it, too. And I don't know if you had any experiences or concerned looks or comments. 

Jaxon [01:28:00] I mean, no. Nothing… nothing from parents. No. 

Brian [01:28:03] Kids? 

Jaxon [01:28:06] Kids felt confused sometimes, I think. 

Brian [01:28:09] I think the first couple of weeks. 

Jaxon [01:28:11] Yeah, first couple of weeks…

Brian [01:28:12] Some pronoun thing. 

Jaxon [01:28:13] There were some pronoun things.  I think some… some of the girls were a little confused on what gender I was. And then eventually, there was one practice where they said, “No, he's a girl. No, he's a boy.” And then eventually they all landed on boy, which was great news. I'm like, wow, I didn't even have to help you. You came to that all on your own. I'm proud. 

Brian [01:28:36] Well, I am just picturing 12-year-old you that now has someone that has… they're like, no, this is a thing. And if they're confused and they're wondering and they're whatever, they don't have to say it doesn't exist. 

Jaxon [01:28:53] Yeah. 

Brian [01:28:55] And hopefully for the parents, for everyone, that they're a little bit open minded, that this is a thing. 

Jaxon [01:29:01] Mm hmm. 

Brian [01:29:02] And you can pretend that it isn't and say that it's this or that or with the other, but... 

Jaxon [01:29:08] Mm hmm. And that this thing not only exists, but it is… at the same time as existing, it is unrelated to most other things. 

Brian [01:29:18] What? 

Jaxon [01:29:19] Yeah. Like the fact that I'm trans does not actually impact how I coach their girls.

Brian [01:29:23] Can’t imagine that.

Jaxon [01:29:25] Crazy. I know. I know. It's a concept. It's a concept. 

Brian [01:29:31] Yeah. Thank you so much for all you're doing for lacrosse. For those girls, for me, for everyone. I'm so happy to know you and to be able to share these moments. And I'm... you're one of my heroes. 

Jaxon [01:29:47] Thank you. Thank you.