Daniel Snyder: Interview 7: Financial Realities & Career Aspirations

In this episode, you’ll hear Daniel Snyder speak to Lucas Akai and Esther Cheung about the financial realities of peer work and his future career aspirations. Daniel describes the lack of permanent, full-time positions for peers, and how pursuing a career involving only peer work could impact him financially. Daniel also discusses the importance of counter-narratives about substance use, as not all drug experiences are negative.

This episode was recorded on November 29, 2022.

Transcript

Caitlin Burritt  00:00 

Thank you for listening to the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. We are in the midst of a public health crisis. More than 32,000 people in Canada have died from fatal opioid overdoses since 2016 according to Health Canada. Previously, this podcast featured interviews with bereaved people in smaller towns and communities in BC and Alberta who have lost loved ones to fatal overdose. In this phase, we're sharing interviews with seven harm reduction workers, also known as peers, in different parts of BC. 

Caitlin Burritt  00:27 

The BC Centre for Disease Control Harm Reduction Services defines harm reduction as support services and strategies that aim to keep people safe and minimise death, disease and injury from high risk behaviour. Peers face a lot of challenges. This has been documented by many researchers including Zahra Mamdani and colleagues in BC. In their 2021 paper they outline significant challenges peers face including financial struggles, difficulty finding housing and stressors at work. We wanted to explore these themes with peers and find out more about their experiences and share this information with the public. So we conducted multiple remote interviews with harm reduction workers and invited them to talk about the stressors they face.   

Caitlin Burritt  01:06 

Please note this podcast contains information about substance use, overdose death, grief, trauma and stressors that peers face and this may be distressing to listen to. The podcast is part of a research project led by Aaron Goodman, PhD, faculty member at Kwantlen Polytechnic University in Surrey, BC, and conducted under the auspices of a grant known as the Chancellor's Chair Award. I'm Caitlin Burritt, a researcher with the project. A number of researchers including Giorgia Ricciardi and Chloe Burritt, who happens to be my sister, and a number of students have played key roles in the study and you'll hear many of their voices in this podcast. 

Caitlin Burritt  01:40 

In this episode, you'll hear Daniel Snyder speak to Lucas Akai and Esther Cheung about the financial realities of peer work and his future career aspirations. Daniel describes the lack of permanent full time positions for peers and how pursuing a career involving only peer work could impact him financially. Daniel also discusses the importance of counter-narratives about substance use as not all drug experiences are negative. 

Lucas Akai  02:01 

So of course, when we left off, it was just about take away the trade aspect -- 

Daniel Snyder  02:06 

yes. 

Lucas Akai  02:06 

Take away your stable career, and is your work something that could be financially stable enough for you to get into? 

Daniel Snyder  02:16 

So I mean, I've definitely thought a lot about a career change, and moving doing something that's more --  

Lucas Akai  02:22 

right  

Daniel Snyder  02:23 

in the passion area. So what that would precisely look like I'm actually not really clear. And it's one of the reasons I did, a few years ago, start going back to university and -- 

Lucas Akai  02:33 

oh -- 

Daniel Snyder  02:33 

taking courses to kind of begin that process. And part of what motivated that, for me was the fact that most of the guys doing this kind of work, the trades work that I've been doing. After 50, it's downhill.  

Lucas Akai  02:47 

Right. 

Daniel Snyder  02:48 

And so I'm in my early 40s. And I'm starting to think about this. And I feel like I don't have an education that would qualify me to move into the kind of work that I would want to do.  

Lucas Akai  03:01 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  03:02 

So mostly, I would like either be stuck doing trades, or, or something that I'm probably, that I don't enjoy. Right?  

Lucas Akai  03:14 

Right, right.  

Daniel Snyder  03:15 

So I realised I had a timeline to like dig in and maybe find a, carve myself, at niche for this. So one angle to consider is is just kind of staying in this. Well, I mean, that term seems to work, right? Like gig peer work.  

Lucas Akai  03:31 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  03:32 

I had never heard it, it just came out. I never really heard it in that context before. But I would imagine someone could piece together peer work that sustains them at an income level. Actually, no, I don't think someone could do it. I don't know. I don't think it's possible to do only that. There's not enough opportunities available or if there was you would be a very unique person that qualifies -- 

Lucas Akai  04:08 

right.  

Daniel Snyder  04:08 

for that many opportunities, like, and then just the the disjointed nature, like most of these, well we're hiring right now. We want to hire someone onto this grant. And we're hiring for 10 hours a week, which is hard to find people for, right? Who wants to work only 10 hours a week? Well, someone that has a part time job that does something else will want to work 10 hours a week but. so for me my goal my personal goal is that I can, I have the ability to upgrade my education I have the time and space, sort of, to do it. It's a juggling act, but it can be done. I do have the time because I'm not in a, I'm not in a rush like --  

Lucas Akai  04:18 

right  

Daniel Snyder  04:41 

I can pace myself a little bit. So my goal was to be in a full time, career direction with this kind of work by the time I'm 50 years old, is that exactly peer work? For me it probably like, will have an element of that.  

Daniel Snyder  05:22 

Because I'm not letting go of that part of my life and story in that. And it's always going to be part of the narrative that drives me forward in this kind of passion work. But ultimately, at the end of the day, I would probably see myself taking a job that's, could also be held by a non-peer. 

Lucas Akai  05:22 

Right.  

Lucas Akai  05:46 

Right. 

Daniel Snyder  05:46 

Right? And for me, the question is, how do I, how do I navigate that, because I really don't want to be tied into bureaucratic systems, like I would not be leaning towards working for the Health Authority, I even would have a hard time working inside of some nonprofits, only because, well, I've spent the last almost 50 years virtually self employed, like when I want to go on holiday, I just go on holiday.  

Lucas Akai  06:16 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  06:16 

And if I had someone being like, hey, 'you only get two weeks off a year, and you got to tell me which two weeks eight months in advance,' I'd be like, that sounds like you're gonna crush my soul in that system.  

Daniel Snyder  06:31 

Right? And I don't know if I could go from having that much freedom for so many years to being embedded in a system like that. So I'm actually kind of somewhat concerned about how I would, like, what's the future going to look like for me. And maybe the best thing to do, and this is kind of the advice that I've often given to other people who are joining organisations, or are engaging in peer work is like, you actually, like, there's so much opportunity in this space, you could create your own job.  

Lucas Akai  06:31 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  07:09 

Basically, if you show, if you have enough initiative and enough passion and enough drive, and you start to learn the system, and you, you could apply for grants, or you have a vision for something that would work within an organisation, and that's going to draw peers into that work, or that's going to be on the frontlines of the overdose crisis, or that's going to be that then you could create it like, basically, because I can promise you that the there's funding out there for creative and innovative ideas. But it's a matter of connecting the passionate and people who are willing to work at it with the people who know how to get the money. Right?  

Lucas Akai  07:09 

Right. 

Daniel Snyder  07:13 

And so I'm a very unique position. And I realised that if I took trade work out of my life, I would have to take another job that's not peer work. Because yeah, I don't see a quick and easy way to supplement my income with peer work, but I also. I, almost on any way I slice it, I don't see how I don't end up taking a pay cut if I move into the healthcare space. And that's something I've kind of always been acutely aware of, and it's like, just kind of well, I mean, but you're doing it because of it. It's meaningful. And it's, so really, at the end of the day, in me, I've settled the fact that I would take a pay cut, to do this work versus just making more money, but doing work that is wearing me down and kind of at the end of the day, not truly what I want to do, right? Now, I don't know if, that other people can even have that conversation with themselves -- 

Lucas Akai  07:13 

Right.  

Lucas Akai  09:01 

right.  

Daniel Snyder  09:02 

or consider something like that. And so yeah, it's really tough. There's for a lot of people, it's limited opportunities, or it's more work than it's worth. Yeah, even with our peers. If we go back to the travel time issue.  

Lucas Akai  09:31 

For sure.  

Daniel Snyder  09:33 

Sometimes, we don't think about the efforts that they need to make to get somewhere. I mean, I think that we, we do consider it but man it's a lot of work sometimes. If I was you know without a vehicle and without a stable job and just trying to piece together you know, peer work because I'm qualified for it. That can be very stressful. Like, it's not it's not I would say, a viable job. For most people. It's a it's a filler, right? It's like extra cash or? 

Lucas Akai  10:13 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  10:13 

I mean, yeah, it's it's a filler, I guess for most people. So how does that evolve? I don't know.  

Lucas Akai  10:27 

Well, maybe as we move into that, laying the groundwork, it seems like you've looked into this at least a little bit, you know, with your own desire to get out of the trades eventually. What's the job field like in terms of employment, like actual stable employment opportunities within peer work? Obviously, you're currently considered an employee with your team, but it's not obviously a full time position. So what are the full time positions stability, like within peer work? 

Daniel Snyder  10:56 

I don't know too many people that are employed full time as peers. I know a few. They generally work for the bigger organisations like BC Centre and Substance Use, BC CDC. Fraser Health has, um. I'm not even sure if they still do, but they have had full time peer folks, I think they do. But the positions are limited, very limited. Most of them are part time, or gig opportunities, or just basically, what I would call piecework. So you take what you get when you get it. And, and sometimes that means that there's peers fighting over opportunities, right? Because there's limited shifts or limited, limited availability. And I've certainly seen that where, you know, people are more favoured or people that have more mobility, they'll be the one selected. You know, but at the end of the day, I think that that's an inevitability, you're going to be giving these opportunities to the people that show up. So are -- 

Lucas Akai  12:06 

right  

Daniel Snyder  12:06 

you are, if they're not reliable, then it's likely they're not going to get asked all the time. And, you know, sometimes, like a lot of this work we do does depends on people to show up. So, you know, we want to be gracious and consider people's circumstances, and that life's not always making things easy to, but you know, if you're consistently never there. Well, you can't really expect people to give you more opportunities all the time, right? That's just the -- 

Lucas Akai  12:19 

sure.  

Daniel Snyder  12:40 

harsh reality. 

Lucas Akai  12:45 

A harsh reality that goes back a long way. That's for sure. And so maybe staying on the topic then, is if there's not a lot of like, long term, stable employment opportunities, full time, let's say, do you see that shifting in a different direction, like has it from when you started to now opened up more long term positions? Do you see that becoming more frequent, or? 

Daniel Snyder  13:11 

I wonder if this will probably mostly stay in a limited short term space, I think, for a few reasons. One, I think a lot of people who do get engaged in this work, it is for a limited time, it's not like a lifetime, like, I have this lived experience. I want to, and maybe they view it as a serving or giving back or an opportunity to pass on their, their their knowledge and what they've learned. But mostly that that's like for season. And it's not like, like, you know, you're gonna run out of perhaps opportunities, or you've shared your, you've exhausted your lived experience, you've shared what you want to share, and now you're gonna, ready to move on and do something different. A lot of like, peer roles within our CAT committee, are actually set to be on terms like, so term lengths.  

Daniel Snyder  14:11 

So you're a CAT peer for one year, or like a two year period or something. And then it's either, either we create space for a new person, because we want to bring new people into the space and hear from other voices and not like have this exclusive club. Or we reassess if maybe you, you get another term. I know the Health Canada peer position I was telling you about. It's a term. I, so I've been brought on for a two year contract for that opportunity. And then I guess they would reassess or fill that council with a new voice.  

Lucas Akai  14:45 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  14:45 

And and the fact that I think for the most well, probably not, yeah, maybe for the most part, it seems that peers are paid with grant money. So typically they're specific projects, people have applied for grants, and they have limited timelines, and then we exhaust the funds, peers get paid for their participation during the project, and then it's over.  

Lucas Akai  15:16 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  15:18 

And so that creates, like, in some cases, that's really great, you know, you're a part of something and you know, you're a part of it only for a certain time, like, you don't have to, because those kinds of commitments can be a burden, or to some extent. And it's like, I couldn't do, I couldn't do this every Tuesday afternoon with you for the next five years. But I'm happy to do it for you know, a couple months or something, right. Like, that's, you know. The problem with the grants too, well even for me, I mean, my contract position is funded by a grant, if some arbitrary government, you know, meeting decided that CATs are, you know, they, they're expired, they're past due, they're not serving a value anymore. We're not funding CATs next year. Well, I'm out of work like that, that job is over. 

Lucas Akai  16:11 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  16:12 

And that's [a] real problem. It's a real problem for I think the real problem is the fact that the terms that we've got are one year period, like so CATs have been funded since essentially, since the public health emergency was declared, so almost seven years, maybe not quite that long. And every year, the funding is for one year, and you actually don't know if there'll be funding again, right? So you're in a public health emergency, it's like, yeah, I can understand why they're funding this because it's an emergency. But you're limited because you have no idea if you're gonna get money next year. So you might have a vision or a dream for a bigger project, something that's a little more involved, something that requires a little more preparation, like maybe like six months of preparation, you're not going to do that, if you don't know that you get --  

Lucas Akai  17:06 

right.  

Daniel Snyder  17:06 

One more year of funding. And so that's a real pain in the butt. And I don't understand why it can't be for a longer term, at the very least, so that you, maybe you can engage in something that's got some continuity. I mean, you, I'm sure you can understand, like, knowing that you want to start a project, but you don't know. If you're gonna get the funds to continue it.  

Lucas Akai  17:31 

Yep. 

Daniel Snyder  17:31 

It's kind of like, Why do I even want to start this? Not sure if I do, right. So if peer work is primarily funded by grant money, then it's always tenuous, it's always, you know, you really never have job security. It's, it's the kind of work that's just there's a proper word for that. I can't remember what it is. Um, insecure work or something like that.  

Lucas Akai  18:02 

Unstable, maybe?  

Daniel Snyder  18:04 

Unstable work? Yeah. 

Lucas Akai  18:06 

So again, keeping the trade aspect out of the thought process here, the point of view for a moment, if you were to be working, like as a peer, and it was the primary source of income, did, how do you think that would affect your own burnout and your own passion for the work in terms of not not knowing year to year whether, you know, this can continue as it's going? 

Daniel Snyder  18:31 

I think that, so that would definitely make things more difficult. Because I know the difficulty that I've had with this work just when it gets, when it gets tough, when it gets tiring, when, when you got, when you get one of those phone calls, and it's somebody telling you about another person that's died.  

Lucas Akai  18:49 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  18:50 

And you're just, you're just kind of done, like, you can't really take any more of this. And, and I have the space, the freedom, the knowledge and the awareness, to say, hey, 'I need some time off' to myself, and I can back off and actually, like, this just happened to me a couple of weeks ago, and I was really, I saw the true value of actually having this trade to go to because it had been a rough week. And I had a lot of engagement like this where it's just a lot of talking about overdose and death and, and I was tired, I was really tired. And I was I looked at my calendar, I was like, oh, tomorrow I I'm gonna go paint all day. And I'm not gonna think about anything. And it was like It's like therapy for me in a sense because it was like I can check out but I'm still working and make, and being productive --  

Lucas Akai  19:46 

right, right --  

Daniel Snyder  19:46 

and you know, getting paid and whatnot. And so you know, if I was only doing peer work, and you're just in all, it, it's, it. It changes a person in a way that is often towards the negative, like, it's the things the frustration and the bitterness and the resentment and the anger, at the injustice in the oppression in the slow, slow, slow changing system is like, it just drains people. And when you're constantly exposed to that, on the front lines, how do you? And not only exposed, exposed to it, you're, you're a cog in the machine simultaneously, right? Like you, you have to do your own due diligence to actually make this keep moving, right? To actually keep yourself employed, to keep yourself working? Oh, that project ran out of money, what am I gonna? I gotta find another project to be a part of.  

Daniel Snyder  20:54 

Maybe I have a bit of a disposition to deal with that, because of being self employed, like my, my paychecks have been... Like, they're not, I don't depend on them either. Right? Like, I don't, if I don't work, I don't make money, period, right? Like, well, I mean, that's true for everyone. But, you know, I'm saying that if you're on a salary position, you get same amount of money every month. If I. I don't get the same amount of money every month, winter is generally slower, right? Like, I gotta think about that. So maybe I have a bit of a better disposition to deal with the inconsistencies of cash flow. Because I have experienced that in my life a lot. But not everyone does. I couldn't imagine. You know, one thing I was thinking the other day is that this whole peer term is almost becoming like pejorative in some senses.  

Daniel Snyder  21:59 

Like, it's not a negative, people don't think negative things when they when we talk about peers, but I hate categorising people, you know, and we always I mean, you can't not I suppose, but you know, how we have made an issue with person first language in the substance use space. And like, we just dissuade people from saying addict and --  

Lucas Akai  22:24 

right  

Daniel Snyder  22:24 

especially like things like junkie and crackhead and like, you know, hey, let's talk about them, like they're people and not labels. I feel like, like, the same thing is true of the peer-space. Because what is it even really mean, peer? Like, and I know, I've alluded this, to this before, but we're, aren't we all peers? Or I'm in a room and people forget that I am a peer. Because I carry myself slightly more confidently or dressed slightly differently than the people they think are supposed to be the peers, and  often that kind of tokenized, you know, perception towards people who are peers, I feel like as soon as we put that label on it and use language like peer, we are creating a category where people will stereotype the person that is in that category. And I don't know if that's always helpful, but I don't also know how you avoid it. So. 

Lucas Akai  23:26 

Well, that's actually raises an interesting question. So in acting, of course, there's this term called typecast where, you know, an actor does one role and then that's kind of what they're doing from then on, and Bruce Willis in his action movies. But um, do you find that with, you know, talking about peer as like a term or maybe like a job description in the same way, you might say, oh, there's bankers, or there's lawyers, or there's doctors. Do you find that on the flip side of yes, you know, maybe it's unstable to get into it, but those that have worked as a peer, you know, in this space, maybe it's their full time thing. Is there a way out? Can the experience here translate into other positions in healthcare or in other aspects?  

Daniel Snyder  24:07 

Oh, absolutely it can and I think it should, and that, that for people that want that to happen, they can make it happen, and you know, I suppose when we say peer what we basically mean is that more, the longer term person with lived and living experience --  

Lucas Akai  24:25 

right -- 

Daniel Snyder  24:25 

I guess that's what we're meaning here. And so yeah, it is context specific, like if we're dealing with this space, then lived in living experience exclusively refers to substance use, your experiences with with substance use. But again, I'd argue that virtually everyone has experiences with substance use. So like, find me someone who hasn't tried some drugs. And so we all are, are peers and persons with lived and living experience, right. So but yeah, obviously these people have had more experiences than on average, or maybe more complicated or nuanced experiences. So, you know, we want to learn from it. So that maybe that's an important caveat that, that we look at it that way. Remember, it's broad, a very, very broad category.  

Daniel Snyder  25:19 

And I think one of the things that bothers me about it is that most of the time, the lived and living experience is negative, it's negative experiences, it's, it's addiction, it's an addiction experience for most people. And, and it's, it's about the way drugs have harmed them. And the way the system has not been helpful, right. And so most of the time, it feels like we're gleaning from them, what not to do, what we did wrong, what's bad. And I would love to see a little more. I mean, there is positive to take out of this. But not only that, really important to me, like not all drug experiences are negative. And, and that we can have people in the space who acknowledge positive experiences with their substance use, and that it didn't trickle down into dysfunction, or so actually, that's one area, I've been trying to insert my voice a little into that space, because for the most part, when people talk to me, in the capacity of my lived experience, it's about how it's about my heroin addiction.  

Daniel Snyder  26:30 

It's about how did you get out of that? And how did you get into that? And what was the and all that, right? And now I'm trying to move the conversation. So I like, I like talking about that, that's fine. And, but I want to move the conversation beyond how I got out of that, because sometimes we just end there, right? And the expectation or the story a lot of the time is and then I got into recovery and now I'm abstinent and they lived happily ever after. And whereas I'm like, and then I got into recovery, and I was abstinent for a season. And now I've actually begun to reintroduce certain substances into my life and using these substances in a responsible way. And yes, it can be done, wow, we're changing the narrative, like we don't have to believe the old lies about once an addict, always an addict. And if you, oh, well, if you smoke a joint, you know, five years into recovery, for sure, the next day, you're going to be injecting heroin, like, that's just the way it goes. And that's the story I was told my entire life.  

Daniel Snyder  27:34 

And so now I can tell you about like, years, three years of positive drug experiences, you know, where someone who had a very dysfunctional past with substances recognised that every substance that I might take or not take is something that I am in relationship or not in relationship with. And so what I did is, I just, I looked at every substance, basically, that I would consider taking, and I decided, 'What is my relationship with this substance?' And so for alcohol, I choose to have no relationship, it's not a drug I like, nor is it a drug that seems to have treated me well over time. And so, you know, I put that one aside, but then I can look at other other substances, and mostly my interest is falling into psychedelics for their therapeutic value and to cannabis for its recreational value. And like, and that's,  those things are part of my life. And, and it's positive, and I'm constantly paying close attention to could this be a problem? Could this develop into a problem? Could this what the consequences could come of integrating these substances in my life?  

Daniel Snyder  28:55 

Could these things lead me back to using heroin again? It's a valid question when someone asks it, and I would hope that I can answer it. And, you know, that sort of thing. And I just think that we don't encourage people to think enough, literally think enough about anything, like think about the things you do. What -- why are you doing that? Oh, why did you do that? And most people, well, don't have answers. And I know for years, I didn't have answers. People would ask me questions about my drug use or my recovery or, or relapse and like I had a friend tell me one time 'Why did you relapse?' and I thought about it for 30 seconds. 'I don't know.' But he, he said, 'Well, figure it out. Like until you answer the question, you're just gonna keep, if you don't have an answer, just keep repeating' right? So hey, we got onto a tangent finally today. 

Lucas Akai  29:48 

It was bound to happen right? But that's okay. Because, we bring it back. And so you mentioned, you know, breaking the narrative and these positive drug use stories that you want to, you want to tell. But we also were talking about, like the negative aspects and like the negative atmosphere maybe around a lot of, you know, peer work, where it's about like, this is what drug use has done to me in the negative way. Do you find that that there's a reason that might be is because people maybe are, it's the easiest way to get grant money? I mean, like, as I mentioned, like the typecasts, like, you do what's working so? 

Daniel Snyder  30:27 

Well, I mean, for one, the negative experiences are the focus, because while the positive experiences are uninteresting, they don't hurt anybody. They're, they're, they're enjoyable for, for the individual. But if it's a positive experience, then I would assume no one was hurt, no one died, no one committed any crimes, no one got, you know, relationships weren't destroyed, bank accounts weren't depleted.  

Lucas Akai  30:53 

Right.  

Lucas Akai  30:53 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  30:53 

Like, so that would make for an all encompassing positive drug experience. And that's very uninteresting. Whereas negative experience, you know, has far reaching effects. The individual is harmed, their loved ones are harmed. You know, there could be victims of crime, etcetera, etcetera, people overdose and die. And so obviously, that's where all our focus needs to go. I think it has to be tempered, though, like we have to, that's why I want to bring this other piece in. Because if it's all negative, then that's what we believe. It's all, it's just all negative. And for, you know, I've thought about it for many years from if I tried to consider a police officer's perspective on drugs, if they weren't, like, overtly educated, or on drugs, and in drug culture. And they went by their experience, experiences primarily. I mean, they're gonna believe drugs are all bad. And why would they believe that? Well, every time that they interact with anyone about drugs, it's bad. And why is that? Well, because they're police officers, they only get called when it's bad. You don't call the police when you're having a good time.  

Daniel Snyder  30:54 

So.  

Lucas Akai  31:16 

Unless you want the good time to end. 

Daniel Snyder  32:08 

Right. So the perception is, you know, if you're that person is like, this is all bad. There's no good that ever comes to this thing. And so it's really important that we temper our conversation with the awareness that, hey, even the person who's had the terrible time that has suffered, I think that that's even something to consider. Like, I was talking about this with someone the other day about my own past, like, even in the darkest moments, when I knew I was at my lowest or life seemed hopeless. Like, I mean, the right combination of drugs would still make me feel pretty, pretty frickin' great and fine. And okay with all of it. Right? And, and that, can you appreciate that? The good with the bad. And I've said this to people, particularly in recovery, like when I'm talking to recovery centre, people who are there to actively engage with dealing with their addiction, I'll say you cannot be in denial about the fun times that you had. Because right now every one is around you is pointing to the consequences. And you're here because of the consequences, and your family wants you to become aware of the consequences.  

Daniel Snyder  33:26 

And this is really, really critical. But it would be wrong. And actually a disservice to yourself, if you pretended it you never had any good times. And you need to acknowledge those and actually integrate that and in, you know, like a cost benefit analysis of your substance use. If it was problematic, there's going to be a lot of costs and negative for sure. But there's benefits. And you must, we got to acknowledge those. And so I think we've, we've been unable to do that as a culture because the drug war forced us to go, go rogue on drugs, right? They're all bad. And you can't have a conversation. You can't have the nuanced conversation that brings the good into this. And so we actually, how do you educate a society to be balanced and pragmatic and educated and responsible and intentional with their drug use? If you've never told them that that's even possible. So. 

Lucas Akai  34:25 

And so, you mentioned earlier, the grant aspect and the competitiveness, even just within employment opportunities, where peers, there will be conflict between peers. Is that the same with grants is your competitiveness and that sense? Knowing that year to year you have to justify your funding to continue being funded? 

Daniel Snyder  34:49 

If so, it's probably not my area with a lot of knowledge on the ins and outs. I mean, I've seen a couple times I've seen a, same agent, or different agencies applying for the same grant? And I think it's just known in the space that this happens. You know, the biggest, like my frustration is with what I've already shared about just -- 

Lucas Akai  35:14 

right -- 

Daniel Snyder  35:14 

 the one year and not having clarity on the future. Yeah, I'm not sure if I can add much more to that last on. 

Lucas Akai  35:25 

 No worries. So, earlier today, way earlier today, you mentioned that you were hiring somebody for a temporary position. So when you hire these temporary workers, let's say, what do you tell them? When you introduce them into the space? 

Daniel Snyder  35:43 

Ooh, ha. Well, I mean, there's an interview process to begin with. So we've already hired someone who has some fundamental knowledge on what we're doing. And, and I would expect the passion to do the work as well. A personal interest, but um, yeah, so like, going beyond that. What do we tell them? Like it, more specific like, or just pretty broad?  

Lucas Akai  36:15 

Like, well, it could be like, something specific or? I mean, do you let them know about the maybe this is not going to turn into necessarily, like a full time position or like, the financial security aspects? Or, you know, the... [indiscernible] dozens of other stressors that they might face? Like, is that something that they're maybe briefed on when they sign up? Or is it expected that they already know it? To some extent or? 

Daniel Snyder  36:40 

Yeah, no, it's, it's briefed upon, briefly. Yeah, basically, just 'hey, this is a contract.' I think even the job, job posting states that it's a, it's a one year contract with the potential for renewal. And how the person reads that, they could read that as if my work is good, they'll renew me for another year. So they may not understand the potential for renewal is dependent on grant renewal.  

Lucas Akai  37:10 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  37:11 

And that could be a different case. Like, you might make a different decision for that. But um, I mean, I find all in all, people are pretty willing to engage with opportunities like this, even if it's short term, because it's like a stepping stone to maybe another opportunity. 

Lucas Akai  37:30 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  37:31 

It's something that does go on the resume, it's something that gives you a reference, or gives you some work experience or that sort of thing. So yeah, I mean, in the world that we're living in with job insecurity, and financial insecurity, and people like just you know, the pressure is on, for sure, here in BC, right? In the Fraser Valley. This space is probably not unlike any other, people are struggling everywhere with job security, people are -- I'm just thinking my daughter, you know, works for big outfit, works at the mall, a chain store. And, you know, they don't, they don't have any full time employees, they keep everyone part time.  

Daniel Snyder  38:25 

To force, to let, you know, so that they don't have to pay the extra benefits, the overtime, you know, any, anything that would come with the, the requirements if you have full time employees, right? And there's just more and more of that, and it's, so what does that mean? For her, she's young, whatever, no big deal she can, you know, it's good to have a job. But you know, if you have to work two jobs, because just because your two employers who are being, don't want full time employees, they want part time employees. That's really frustrating. And you're really at the mercy of that system that we've created. Right? And you know, you you work one job, you drive to work or get to work and then you go home, you work two jobs -- 

Lucas Akai  38:25 

Right.  

Lucas Akai  39:12 

right -- 

Daniel Snyder  39:12 

the travel and the navigation. I mean, it's probably exponentially more work and more difficult navigating that, you know, I can't imagine. I got to take a backpack, you know, with me to go to work sometimes because I want to change into my gym clothes, like, you know.  

Daniel Snyder  39:27 

Right. 

Daniel Snyder  39:27 

That's frustrating for me, like, you know, carrying this bag around. I can't imagine, you know, you're changing uniforms, you're doing one job, you work four hours, you got to catch a bus and go to another job. You know, your workday ends up being 15 hours long because it was three hours of travel in between and... Insane.  

Lucas Akai  39:46 

Not necessarily fun experience, so.  

Daniel Snyder  39:48 

So I keep reminding myself of my privilege here throughout this conversation,  

Lucas Akai  39:52 

Right. Right. 

Daniel Snyder  39:54 

Yeah. 

Lucas Akai  39:54 

So when you hire these individuals are there like three, maybe three things that you, you know, you always tell them? Maybe it's like there's a warning about something, you might experience this or it's a, you know, you might have to deal with that type of idea. Are there things that consistently pop up?  

Daniel Snyder  40:10 

There's probably 100 things, but can I name any of them, and think of any, any of what that is? I mean, the onboarding process is totally informal, in the sense. I mean, there's the onboarding is in the sense of, you're now an employee of this organisation.  

Lucas Akai  40:31 

Right. 

Daniel Snyder  40:32 

But that's not I don't, that's not my problem. I don't care about that part. Actually, they have like, they have the human resources.  

Lucas Akai  40:39 

Right, right.  

Daniel Snyder  40:40 

People over there that will do that and that will, 'here, here's how you submit your hours -- 

Daniel Snyder  40:45 

here's how you, uh --and they take care of that. For me, it's about getting to know the community. So when I start interacting with a new person, I'm like, 'hey, how well do you know Langley? What's -- do you do know what's going on here? Do you know how politics in Langley works?' So politics is often a starting point, with our work and a conversation around politics is normally happening on day one, with anyone that engages with us? Because well, the stuff that we really care about it that hasn't happened in Langley mainly hasn't happened because of political reasons, like, you look at any community in the province that does not have an overdose prevention site. It's because of their municipal mayor and council. Only. Like, that's the only reason. It's not. So it's, it's those people haven't made it happen.  

Lucas Akai  40:45 

sure, for sure -- 

Lucas Akai  41:43 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  41:43 

So we need to, we need people to understand politics in Langley, which yeah, well, no one understands politics in Langley. But you know, even things like the knowledge of the city and the township, which we've talked about -- 

Lucas Akai  41:56 

right --  

Daniel Snyder  41:56 

is so weird for this area. And it's something that like, you know, I meet people, and they're like 'what? We have? I've lived in Langley my whole life. I didn't know we have two mayor's, like, two city councils?' Because, I mean, unless, you know, why would you know, right?  

Lucas Akai  41:56 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  41:56 

It's one of those things. So politics is always discussed, I think. I mean, for me, it's really fundamental that a person has some basic proper understanding of the Overdose Crisis, and the stats and facts around it separate from ideology, and that they're capable of or willing to let go of like, bad information. So again, it's that delicate balance between like, 'oh Okay, you have some of your own ideological beliefs.' Of course, we all do. We all have our own ways of thinking what is best around this. But fentanyl, you can't overdose by touching it. It's a scientific fact. So if you believe that, you know, because you've seen too many American news stories. And you think that just touching fentanyl is going to cause you to overdose. Well, we have a problem, we have to either update your understanding on this and you need to realise the truth about it. Or if you're just stubborn, and you know, because you heard it on the news, then we might have a problem, this might not actually work out.  

Daniel Snyder  43:36 

And like, that seems like a rather moot issue, like you know, but you would be -- we're dealing with a space that is fraught with misinformation -- 

Lucas Akai  43:48 

right --  

Daniel Snyder  43:48 

and myths. And I take it on my, I take a real personal responsibility in being accurate about what I say and that not that I could ever do that perfectly. Without a doubt, there's probably like, without a doubt, I say wrong things, make a mistake or, or make an error or not only that, more an encoding decoding problem.  

Lucas Akai  44:11 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  44:12 

You, you miss, you misunderstood me. It's not my fault. For sure, you know, it's... I need a person to be teachable.  

Lucas Akai  44:27 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  44:27 

I think we all need to be teachable in this space. And so there's three core areas. I think I've, I think I've finally reduced your question down to an answer. The three core areas that I would probably communicate on, we had the political but then I want to make sure the person has an understanding of the toxic drug poisoning crisis, which would be the data and the statistics. 

Lucas Akai  44:52 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  44:53 

I want to make sure that the person has an understanding of stigma and the best way to know navigate communicating about substance use so that they're using proper language, proper terminology and not spreading bad information or myths. And then the third thing would be that the person understands, is trained or will get trained in Naloxone, and that that's an important component of a lot of the work we do. And being competent in that area, it's going to be important if you're, you know, kind of a leader in that space. So those would be like the first things I would want to make sure the person's on board on. But we would probably be doing that in the interview process. 

Lucas Akai  45:39 

Right, right.  

Daniel Snyder  45:40 

As opposed to the onboarding process. I mean, you can always train someone to Naloxone after, you don't have to have it beforehand. You can always correct a person's misinformation and misunderstandings, if they're teachable. So what am I looking for? I'm looking for teachable, a teachable person. A passionate person. So generally speaking, you're connected to this issue in some way.  

Lucas Akai  46:08 

Right. 

Daniel Snyder  46:08 

It's, it's very rare for people to get involved in his work and not have like a really close friend or loved one that's died of an overdose, or a very close friend or loved one that's at risk -- 

Lucas Akai  46:21 

right -- 

Daniel Snyder  46:21 

of overdose, like, I mean, people do. I mean, plenty of public health people and professionals that work with us have not been directly, directly impacted. Perhaps. ,aybe peripherally? I think almost everyone has been peripherally impacted now. But so you know, when you have a person who has that, like, that's almost a peer too, right? It just it, and like, that's something to think about, like, 'Oh, my lived experience is, is the fact that my son has died to this crisis. And I tried to take care of him or support him and, and he died, and now I'm involving myself in this work.'  Are you not a peer as well? Right? That's lived experience in the context of the toxic drug poisoning crisis. So and that's another, those voices are heard, like Moms Stop the Harm is, for example, an amazing organisation that amplifies those voices, the voices of those who have been left behind and have lost their children, their loved ones, and their experiences. So that's really, really important too. 

Lucas Akai  47:33 

That's all great stuff. We're kind of at the 10 minute mark, and we'd like to just cover some of the stuff upcoming for the next couple of weeks as well.  

Daniel Snyder  47:40 

Okay.  

Lucas Akai  47:41 

So unless there's anything else relating to kind of like this topic that you'd like to add, I think we covered -- 

Daniel Snyder  47:47 

no that's great --  

Lucas Akai  47:47 

a great amount though. 

Caitlin Burritt  47:48 

That brings us to the end of this episode of the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. To listen to more interviews in the series, please go to www.unsilencingstories.com, and if you'd like to share your thoughts on the episode, message us at unsilencingstories@gmail.com. Thank you for listening.