Daniel Snyder: Interview 8: Exposure To Death & Trauma

In this episode, you’ll hear Lucas Akai and Esther Cheung interview Daniel Snyder about exposure to death and trauma and how he copes with it. Daniel describes outlets he uses to deal with stress, the importance of taking breaks to avoid burnout, and steps he is taking to maintain boundaries between his peer work and his personal life.

This episode was recorded on December 6, 2022.

Transcript

Caitlin Burritt  00:00 

Thank you for listening to the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. We are in the midst of a public health crisis. More than 32,000 people in Canada have died from fatal opioid overdoses since 2016 according to Health Canada. Previously, this podcast featured interviews with bereaved people in smaller towns and communities in BC and Alberta who have lost loved ones to fatal overdose. In this phase, we're sharing interviews with seven harm reduction workers, also known as peers, in different parts of BC. 

Caitlin Burritt  00:27 

The BC Centre for Disease Control Harm Reduction Services defines harm reduction as support services and strategies that aim to keep people safe and minimise death, disease and injury from high risk behaviour. Peers face a lot of challenges. This has been documented by many researchers including Zahra Mamdani and colleagues in BC. In their 2021 paper they outline significant challenges peers face including financial struggles, difficulty finding housing and stressors at work. We wanted to explore these themes with peers and find out more about their experiences and share this information with the public. So we conducted multiple remote interviews with harm reduction workers and invited them to talk about the stressors they face.   

Caitlin Burritt  01:06 

Please note this podcast contains information about substance use, overdose death, grief, trauma and stressors that peers face and this may be distressing to listen to. The podcast is part of a research project led by Aaron Goodman, PhD, faculty member at Kwantlen Polytechnic University in Surrey, BC, and conducted under the auspices of a grant known as the Chancellor's Chair Award. I'm Caitlin Burritt, a researcher with the project. A number of researchers including Giorgia Ricciardi and Chloe Burritt, who happens to be my sister, and a number of students have played key roles in the study and you'll hear many of their voices in this podcast. 

Caitlin Burritt  01:40 

In this episode, you'll hear Lucas Akai and Esther Cheung interview Daniel Snyder about exposure to death and trauma and how he copes with it. Daniel describes outlets he uses to deal with stress, the importance of taking breaks to avoid burnout, and steps he is taking to maintain boundaries between his peer work and his personal life.  

Lucas Akai  01:55 

Last week, we had mentioned, of course, that this week would be the death and drama week.  

Daniel Snyder  02:00 

Right.  

Lucas Akai  02:02 

Bit of a heavier subject. So a lot of today's interview in terms of like length and time, it's really up to you in terms of what you're open to sharing. And there's not really a, like, secondary questions so much we tried to -- 

Daniel Snyder  02:20 

okay -- 

Lucas Akai  02:20 

stick to the list, just so that there's no real surprises -- 

Daniel Snyder  02:23 

sure --  

Lucas Akai  02:25 

with the questions. So today could be a bit shorter, it could be even longer. 

Daniel Snyder  02:29 

I'm curious to explore this a little bit, actually, because I'm almost treating it like an outlet. So maybe a processing opportunity. We'll see what comes up. 

Lucas Akai  02:41 

So I'm gonna basically just go straight off the list and kind of setting the foundation is, maybe how often have you faced like the death and trauma aspect of your work?  

Daniel Snyder  02:52 

Hmm. Well, I mean, I think the first thing that comes to mind is really contextualising in this in this time and place. So in my years of addiction, which I would say, let's, let's think 1995 - 96 all the way through til even 2010. During that timeline, I don't think I really knew of anyone that died of an overdose. Few people from drinking and driving for sure. There might have been a couple overdoses in there and maybe cases I didn't, wasn't familiar with. I do have one guy who experienced an overdose and survived. And that was it. So like in this huge chunk of time, like, it wasn't on my radar. And in when using drugs or [being] around people using drugs, like the thought of dying as a result was not a real thought. Like it wasn't something we were concerned about. There was other concerns, there's other risks that, but putting death up, there was not one of them, right? So then, obviously, timeline change 2016.  

Daniel Snyder  04:08 

Wonder when the first person I learned of had died? I don't know what the first, like I don't know who precisely the first was, but the first person I really remember was a very close friend, who to this day, actually his family doesn't tell the truth about why he died. They kind of have a story involving kidney failure and other health issues, not admitting or acknowledging it was substance use and overdose. But he was quite close to me. We'd been in treatment in years prior and and so that was the beginning of the normal. 

Daniel Snyder  04:52 

Which is is kind of where I find myself when I think about this issue today. So like last, now I would say it's not, it's unusual for a week, or 10 days to go by and not learn of somebody that's died recently that I was acquainted with. Whether know their name, know of them peripherally, or an acquaintance, or maybe someone closer. But it makes me think like, I wonder if I've insulated myself a little bit from the riskiest of people, like, think of someone who I know experienced a relapse this summer. And it's just a little bit mind numbing to me, because he's a very intelligent person who knows the risks, very what, truly understands fentanyl in the drug supply, and what's happening. Pretty affluent as well.  

Daniel Snyder  05:48 

So, I know not someone who's disclosing his relapse very publicly, or going to be out there like just using in groups more, that he'll be more like me, which was using alone. Or is using alone, which is, you know, I think it's just shocking to me, because, so I learned through third party that he experienced an overdose, not surprising this, it survived. But it's now as I said, the norm, right, like, you just kind of feel like if you know, people who are using from the illicit market, it's, it's truly Russian roulette. And it's a matter of time, like the, one day the trigger, the hammer is going to hit the, the right chamber and the bullets going to go off, right? So. I feel like pretty comfortable with mortality a little bit. It's interesting. I wonder if it's because  of this, being, just being exposed to it. Also, getting a little bit older, maybe plays some role. I know, like I turned 40, a few years ago, and sorry, I turned 40 and I began, to become quite more aware of like, dying is gonna happen one day.  

Lucas Akai  07:24 

Right. 

Daniel Snyder  07:27 

There's this term...What was the term? The like, the way you see the world kind of flips, like it inverts like, you know, for from childhood to about 40, I always think of my life in the context of I was a little kid, and I'm getting older. But now I think of myself as I'm an adult, and I'm getting closer to death. And so when that awareness kind of settled on me, I also realised things I was doing in my life that were probably contributing to an earlier death, ie, not eating, not exercising, not eating particularly healthy, those kinds of things. And, and so the I made, well after giving it some standard thought, like a year and a half, I finally engaged in some action, right, and have improved my health dramatically. And I think it's partially motivated by the fact that I see so much death around me and so many people suffering some at their own expense, like I mean, you're suffering because of your choices you, which is what I became aware of, like if I was, had continued eating the way I was and not exercising, I'm certain that in my mid 60s or something, I would not, I would be suffering the consequences, right? 

Daniel Snyder  08:52 

 And then, of course, a lot of these people, a lot of suffering is not the fault of anyone. They're not their own fault. And obviously, that's how I see most of these deaths is not truly the fault of the person or not a good reason to die. Like, they're preventable. And there's, so there's words like preventable and accidental and, and where really the word overdose, which we've used for so long now is actually not even maybe the most accurate term to help people understand what's causing these deaths and why people are dying. And but yeah, you're on hyper alert for death or I am. Like, okay, I have someone in my team who's supposed to run an event tonight. She messaged that she can't do it. There's a health issue in the family and I know some of their life circumstances. Um, so my first thought is the worst case scenario regarding a loved one of hers who struggles with substance use, right?  

Daniel Snyder  10:07 

Like, that's the most likely thing here, it feels like and I wonder really if like, this is becoming so normal, that we are just really, it's just one of the social issues that exist in our culture. And that, you know, we're just all kind of like, oh yeah, that's what life in Canada is like, like part of it is, you know, the, this crisis is so significant that the life expectancy of the average British Columbian has declined because of toxic drug poisoning. It's the first like known catalyst in the western world that's caused a decline in life expectancy since life expectancy began trending upwards like about 100 years ago. So we've, we've gotten constantly, life expectancy has gone constantly up and then all of a sudden, drug poisoning brings it back down. And so um, what more to say about this?  

Lucas Akai  11:19 

Well, maybe to better contextualise. You know, we always say, you know, I mean, the question, the original question was how often you face death and trauma and even you kind of separated, separated, the death aspect, like people passing away from like the trauma aspect of an overdose did happen, but they survived. So, so you find that like, because there's been so many passings, so many deaths as a result of this toxic drug crisis, that it almost overshadows the other trauma of someone that overdoses but does not die?  

Lucas Akai  11:54 

it's Interesting --  

Lucas Akai  11:54 

trauma within, you know, drug yse?  

Daniel Snyder  11:57 

Yeah. I wonder. That's interesting that you point that out that I articulated it that way. I wonder if it's the nature of like, the way we think of human life, or the human experience, like, the bottom line is death. If there's death, well, then there's nothing to salvage, right? It's just the end, whereas you know, when we look at traumas, and well, let's, when I look at the public health response to COVID, we use death as the bottom line metric. 

Lucas Akai  12:34 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  12:34 

Right? And that's for obvious reasons. It's what public health does. But I mean, we didn't even contemplate the other human toll, right, the negative, the collateral damage on social isolation, and the anxiety, the fear factor, the depression and all that other mental health toll, that and financial, etcetera, that were consequences of our reaction to death as a possibility. Right, it's like, so we got to prevent death. But in the meantime, we're gonna, like everyone else is going to suffer in every other way do we can prevent death. And, you know, that's what the debate has always been about, I think. Right? Some people have thought that that was an overreaction, and other people, not reaction enough. But I wonder if we make the same mistake with this crisis is like, we're so obsessed with preventing death, that, you know, most of the measures that we take are aimed at preventing someone from truly dying, that we ignore other consequences, other collateral damage,  other traumas. And, you know, people seem to react in different ways to being exposed to this.  

Daniel Snyder  12:35 

I was at a supportive housing unit the other day and staff members there are fairly, this is fairly familiar territory, witnessing and responding to overdose, and it seems the some of them, like just it becomes automatic, and the emotional response is not part of it. It's just a medical response. You do what you need to do and, and the life is saved. And they don't seem to have a lot, a whole lot to process afterwards doesn't even seem to be an emotional experience, really. Whereas there's others who one or two incidences that have been enough to cause them to either maybe move on from that line of work almost completely or seek mental health support or be so traumatised that they really feel they can't even deal with overdose and now you have a job at a supportive housing unit unit, and you're traumatised from the overdose as a result of the exposure to the overdose crisis. And you feel that your own mental health is at risk because you can't respond to overdoses?  

Daniel Snyder  14:19 

Like, well, that's tough. Like that's a really difficult situation to be in, because I don't know how to help that person right then and there. But let's, more context for me. What's next?  

Lucas Akai  15:32 

For sure. 

Daniel Snyder  15:32 

Let's keep thinking about this. 

Lucas Akai  15:34 

So in terms of, again, we'll go back, we'll keep on frequency until we think we have a good enough foundation. So of course, you mentioned the death aspect, and that, you know, every week to 10 days, you know, you'll hear the passing of someone, whether you just know them in passing or not. But in terms of frequency, how often do you think you see the other side of, you know, the trauma aspect that doesn't necessarily lead to death, whether that's broken families or, you know, an overdose that did not lead to passing or the other aspects of this crisis? 

Daniel Snyder  16:06 

I think that I don't even have a way of measuring how much exposure I have to that. It's a, it's probably all around me all the time. And, I mean, that's one of when families are crying out for help for a loved one who has an addiction, that's what it's all about, is this, just this tension and this trauma and this dysfunction, and this emotional burnout and all that stuff. And you know, how many people do I know or work with, peers in particular that I think of that have experienced overdose multiple times themselves, survived? And I don't even know what what they might be what consequences they might be experiencing? 

Daniel Snyder  16:52 

Have we even had if we had any ability to capture the, the damage for people who have survived overdose, like people who were, had an anoxic brain, have anoxic brain injury? And so I don't know what they, they've lost the ability to walk or use motor control or speech or their memory's not working the same or other consequences as a result of being without oxygen for, for the time that they were overdosed. I'd be curious as to like, you know, how significant that is. But when I look at the people around me, who are doing the work, or advocates, peers, I feel like that, that trauma is actually like a motivating force sometimes. Is it? Like certainly things like anger, which we've talked about quite a bit and fear, seem to be motivators for many people. Equally as powerful maybe as positive motivators like hope. Right? I mean, I would say I'm more of a, I'm more inspired and motivated by the positive.  

Lucas Akai  18:09 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  18:09 

So I want a better future, I want to see people overcome addictions, I want to see, I don't want people to die. But other people who have been traumatised have lost their loved ones. Maybe they have different motivations and reasons for getting in this work. You know, you've lost your your only child. There's no hope for their future.  

Daniel Snyder  18:30 

But you have hope for other people's future, you have hope for a better Canada or a better world. And so I can understand how grief and trauma and anger are, are motivating force for an individual like that. And so, certainly, the amount of exposure I have to that is constant, I would say. And yeah, you know, again, it's probably one of the reasons that I like have this more lighthearted, a little bit of humour, a little bit of, a little bit more carefree of an attitude towards this, like, I can't get overly attached like, this can't be my whole life.  

Lucas Akai  18:30 

Right.  

Lucas Akai  19:26 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  19:27 

And I think it becomes some people's whole life, right? It's all they do. It's all they talk about, it's all they engage with. And, and I can understand how that can happen because this is this is 24/7. And I know like, it's almost like a guilt is experienced by some people when they they stop and do something for themselves that's fun or entertaining or social engagement or whatever. And, like I mean, I can relate to that in ways, like, you know, you're out connecting with people who are homeless. And then while you get back in your car and drive home to your home, you know, and you're warm and comfortable, and you eat wherever you want, like, and then you remember that person out there who's cold and hungry, and you do nothing about it, you just stay on your comfortable couch, like, we all do this, right?  

Daniel Snyder  20:22 

This is, I mean, this is, how do you reconcile that all the time? I don't know. But you know, what's devastating is when you have those thoughts. And then you hear a story like a week later that that very person is no longer even alive. It's like, I can't be responsible for the whole world can I?  

Lucas Akai  20:49 

Right. So I can't imagine you can do. And so you mentioned your. the struggle in measuring the frequency of non-death related trauma? Do you think that's because maybe you, like, shut off or like blocked out some of those aspects and those emotions? Or do you think it's like an over, oversaturation maybe ,of just that type of trauma? It bring so constant, it just you lose track of it maybe? 

Daniel Snyder  21:24 

So I think more likely, I have a really good, strong skill set of compartmentalization. So I can put this into a section in my brain and like, and I access it when I need it, and then turn it off. And most of the time, that's okay. Now oversaturation is a component here, I would say as well. It's like, if you're just constantly exposed to it, it becomes the norm as well. And the, the part that's important for me to remember in that is that people's emotions are not. Those are the important part.You know, that saying, they might not remember what you said, but they'll remember how you made them feel?  

Lucas Akai  22:14 

Yes, yep.  

Daniel Snyder  22:15 

Something along those lines, right? So for me, if I'm like, oversaturated, with these stories, it's pretty easy to be glib or aloof, when I respond to a real person in front of me whose emotions are actually also very real. And it's not the norm for them. Their emotional experience is, like extreme and, and I have to remember to, we can't just have a catchphrase that you say every time someone dies to the person -- 

Lucas Akai  22:49 

 right --  

Daniel Snyder  22:49 

that's telling you someone died? Like, it's like, oh, yeah, well the last 10 people I just said this to, like, wow, is that we've cut? Is that how we've arrived? We're. So you know, again, this theme for me keeps coming down to like, the bottom line is the human, like, e in the moment with the person despite the craziness around you. And you know, if I can remember, if I can positively impact this person, they don't remember precisely what I said but they remember that I validated their experience or how I made them feel and that  their son or daughter, their loved one is not just a statistic. Oh, man, that's such a problem with this crisis, right? Because when it's discussed, it's always discussed in terms of data and statistics. And we have these astronomically large numbers, like 10,700 people that have died. And that's 10,700 individual stories, but we don't think about it that way when we think about it in the statistics, right?  

Lucas Akai  24:01 

Yeah. 

Daniel Snyder  24:01 

It's tough. 

Lucas Akai  24:06 

It is. And so do you find that? I know you've mentioned that, as a result of this, you find yourself adding a little levity, a little appropriate humour within the context of your work, but do you find that it's affected, The death and trauma has that affected you in other ways in regards to how you approach your work? Whether that's subconscious or consciously 

Daniel Snyder  24:34 

Well, I think that certainly, you know, no matter how comfortable I might think I am with this topic it's probably one that's preferably avoided most of the time. You never know how, I mean, why is that? Well, people's emotions, conflict. I guess I don't always see myself as being the greatest comforter, comforter. Yeah. Like,so if you're gonna pour out your heart to me, like, I don't feel like I'm going to do justice in my response to your, your heartbreak, like, "I'm sorry to hear that. I really, I mean, so I've actually technically, like intentionally strive to get better at that. Sure. Because it's like people just automatically start telling their stories in this space, right? If you if you put yourself out there. So like, one of the things that we do, I've told you is the farmers markets where we're just in the community, random people come up and talk to us. So people I've never met who within 30 seconds are telling me about their dead child or loved one, and the story that goes along with it.  

Daniel Snyder  25:55 

And so it's like, almost I see it as, like, I have a responsibility to be a compassionate comforter in this space, if you're going to, if by, if you just by the nature of what you do, people are going to start telling you their stuff. I better get good at responding to it and also not, not carrying it. So that's maybe where the compartmentalising is helpful is like, because I can go home after that. And you know, there's, there's times it's not easy to go home after these stories and like and then be normal.  

Lucas Akai  26:34 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  26:37 

Where it's more like, how can I get back to my life after knowing that the dead, this devastation that these people are living in or the pain that they're going through? But well, life goes on. 

Lucas Akai  26:53 

It does. So maybe in terms of the impact yourself being that that's kind of where we arrived, is facing such a frequent amount, the oversaturation as we mentioned, do you find that this impacts you in, outside of like the emotional aspect, which of course we've covered in like a physical way? Or are there other ways that you think that affects you on a personal level on an individual? 

Daniel Snyder  27:18 

That is a good question. Because my, so my, my gut instinct is yes, it does have an effect. How precisely? I'm not sure. I don't know if, if I'll ever, like know, or maybe it'll have to be one of those in reflection things like years later, where it's like, it'll become clear. I think that it's one of those things where I'm constantly in flux on. So I've developed some pretty good self care things and some outlets that probably give me space to just, like, dump that stuff off. So like, for instance, working out in the gym, listening to music, it's like an energy outlet. And that's something that's become very, like, critical to my mental health and overall, well being. Like, it's a required practice now almost, right? 

Daniel Snyder  28:26 

So there's having those things built into my life is seem to make it easier for me to not let this stuff pile up internally. And I mean, obviously, like the, depending on the proximity of, to a person, like in terms of emotional proximity, or the proximity of the relationship determines maybe its impact on me, right? So yeah, I mean, I carry it maybe a little more significantly than the average person might, knowing this number of how many people have died. But I mean, I haven't lost my own children, or a very, like a best friend or family member. So because of that, maybe I'm a little insulated. Not it doesn't minimise the value. It's, yeah, I think that the importance of those relationships would obviously determine how much more affected you are by the crisis, right? And so most of the time when I think about death, I contextualise it in my own, like, my own possibility of my own death, which didn't happen but could have.  

Lucas Akai  29:39 

Right. 

Daniel Snyder  29:41 

As opposed to the loss of someone around me. So yeah, that's that's so interesting.  

Lucas Akai  29:50 

So I have a follow up and this is up to you if you want to speak on this. But you know, we mentioned the emotional, physical, but there's also the psychological. So did you find with yourself, you know, always with that oversaturation, does it affect you in terms of like, your own personal relationships? You know, do you fear, do you have other additional fears as a result of what you're seeing for your own, whether that's your children or your spouse or other family? 

Daniel Snyder  30:17 

Well, thankfully, with the relationships that are like really close to me, so family, and kids, and stuff, I mean, we've had such open dialogue about the, these issues for so many years that I don't have, like a heightened fear, risk or worry --  

Lucas Akai  30:37 

right --  

Daniel Snyder  30:37 

around that. I think it's pretty well discussed in our family, because of the transparency, it makes it easier to, to talk about those things. What surprises me sometimes is when I do hear from close friends, or people that are more willing to talk to me about drug use, because of what I talk about, that still like, are engaging in their non, non-addictive or non-problematic behaviour, but highly risky, like behaviour in terms of the illicit market. And I'm just like, in disbelief, like, how do you not understand what's going on right now out there? And, and just the the either lack of education or the denial factor that exists among people, it's so strange, but psychologically, for me, again, it might be kind of in that vein of like, I'm not sure, we'll find out one day, how much it's affected me. Yeah, hard one to process, for sure. I'm not really sure. 

Lucas Akai  31:45 

And so you mentioned outlets. One of them being the gym, you mentioned the gym. Are there other ways that you, you know, provide yourself an escape from the oversaturation. And we're gonna use that word a lot today, I think, but.  

Daniel Snyder  31:58 

Yeah, I mean, definitely, there's, there's a bunch, I mean, part of it is just having overall routine in my life. So just a general structure and balance not like, not to the minute scheduling my life, but regular routine, the gym, and then some social activities. So I play poker, and I play chess. And this is fairly regular, and it's kind of a, a, it's a, it's a core part of my life is doing these activities. I look forward to them. And there's that. 

Daniel Snyder  32:35 

I mean, there's family, there's family engagement, there's movies. Cannabis is an outlet for me. It's, yeah, you know, I mean, I think the theme I do, I don't do New Year's resolutions, I do New Year's themes. And the theme for this year was balance. And, you know, really, it was about, like, paying attention to when my life goes out of balance and when it's in balance, and you know, that's constantly happening, right? Like, every day, something is trying to pull you a little more out of balance. And every day, you know, you can pull it back in. And, you know, multiple times this year, because I was paying attention to that theme, I noticed myself going out of balance. Some of it was when in and around Overdose Awareness Day, the month of July and August and September, where we did a heck of a lot of community engagement, did a lot more, put a lot more hours into this work and noticed that it was, it was, I was unbalanced. Like I just it was burning me out at that time.  

Daniel Snyder  32:39 

And that the result of that was that for, for me, I got, I get really angry. And when I'm, when I'm burnt out, I get angry, then my know it all personality, it grows and my ego inflates. And I use this angry ego to like be a perfect defence mechanism against allowing human beings close to me, stay far away. It's an interesting phenomenon that I noticed but it's kind of like the way I cope with burnout. Right? So what, you know, it's, it was spiralling and then you know, I had couple loved ones point it out to me. 'Hey, just so you know, you're, you're a bit of a loser lately.' 

Daniel Snyder  34:23 

No, they didn't word it like that. And so you know, then you take a look, oh, I'm out of balance, right? So. For that, like it means that every single component of your life, the social activities, the fun activities, your work, your relationships. For me, it's all about like, checking how they are interacting with one another. And is it appropriate? And I don't know how we got on that topic. 

Lucas Akai  34:52 

Well, no, that that actually brings us to the next question on the list is speaking on balance and stepping away. As a result of the trauma, the death that you, you know, you witness and you hear stories on a daily basis, and just maybe burn out, as well? Have you ever had to not just like, you know, slow down, but take a complete step back and like, just pause the whole peer work, that you do? 

Daniel Snyder  35:15 

Not like a complete, like a total we're on hold. And partially, maybe that's because I feel too much of a responsibility. Maybe it's because that the obligations, I treat it almost as like an obligation. And -- but definitely, like short term breaks, lots, fairly regularly. I find that three months is like a max without some kind of reprieve. So, and that's, and that's probably an inappropriate out of balance way of approaching it. Because if I'm like going extreme three months, and then it's like, oh, you need a break now for like, two weeks, that obviously it was a little too much, right, all at once. But so I guess I'm always thinking of a way to prevent, you know, short term burnout, I guess, would be what I would call it, right?  

Daniel Snyder  36:14 

Like, so just, you know, and always do something different, because I'm not, as much as I talk about routine and ritual and everything, like think life's, you can't have, life interferes with routines constantly, right? So you gotta have to be flexible and ready to move. This month, I decided that I'm not doing any, any overdose related work on weekends, so in December. So that means that Friday, Friday, at four o'clock till Monday morning, I'm not engaging with this stuff, period. And that's unusual. And, you know, part of the, I don't normally do that I normally like to reply to people right away when I get messages, but one of the, the mistakes, maybe, I might have made is that the, the line between my personal life, my social life, and my work, life, or my, this peer life, and engaging in this space, is quite blurry. And, for instance, you know, like, now face like messenger on Facebook is more of a personal space.  

Daniel Snyder  37:22 

But it's been infiltrated by friends who are also co-workers who are also colleagues who are also advocates. And so, you know, they message whenever they want. So, you know, there's no eight to four business day, it's not the kind of work that gives you the space to leave the bank and come home. And, and it doesn't exist, right? I left my work at work. The, the line between the office and the house is blurry, right, my computer where I do work is in the same space as everything else. So this is an interesting problem that I think humans are dealing with in the modern era, right? Like, all our spaces are and lines are, are kind of blurry like that. How many people are replying, which is shocks me. Well, I do it. I'll send a work email at 9pm.  

Lucas Akai  38:19 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  38:20 

It's like, yeah, well, they'll get it in the morning, right when they get to the office, and then they reply at like, 9:30. Like, what? You shouldn't be doing this. They're like, 'Well, why are you sending emails?'  

Lucas Akai  38:31 

Yeah.  

Daniel Snyder  38:32 

So yeah, I don't know how I, how you fix that other than just hard lines, like hard boundaries. So saying Friday till Sunday, I'm offline. I mean, I can't tell everybody that, they'll just find out when I don't reply until Monday morning. That's the way it is. So I think that thinking about that, in advance proactively is what I can do to prevent, like, I've learned, I'm taking past burnout experiences and saying, 'oh, I need to learn from this. I need to prevent getting exhausted in this way again.' And the main reason is, because when I'm burned out like that, it's, I'm not nice to people. That's like, I can't allow that to happen, right? It's not good for anyone. 

Lucas Akai  39:19 

And so throughout our I guess we're on on the week of the calendar, we're on interview eight. So throughout these eight interviews, we have frequently, you frequently described yourself and we've discussed how you're not necessarily the mainstream image of a peer worker today. You don't necessarily fall into that category that, you know, what most people would ascribe to being like the stereotypical peer worker, heavy drug user, all that type of stuff that, the negative connotations. So with that in mind, do you find that because of where you fit into those categories that you receive the same or enough support in dealing with like, the death and trauma aspects of peer work or? Do you find 'oh, because, you know, Daniel, he looks like, you know, a more normal guy, you know, he's probably okay?' 

Daniel Snyder  40:08 

People around me seem to be pretty good at not allowing their judgments to be made by their eyeballs. Which I mean, category is just, it's, I guess it's a requirements of like life on Earth, right? I mean, we would like, you'd be like, 'Oh, I would love to do away with all category,' but I don't know, I think life would be really boring then, right?  

Lucas Akai  40:36 

Right. 

Daniel Snyder  40:36 

We could. So I mean, one of the things that does bother me about the peer designation, it becomes a label. So when you have, when it is a label you have, you have an average, right? You have a, so you create a stereotype inevitably, and when, you know, so the average is, well people form an idea in their mind. You know, I certainly think that the main consequence of that is that people forget that I also am a peer, which is fine. I mean, I like, I'll remind them, but you know, that... that bothers me. Because I guess it does mean that they're like thinking, 'oh, yeah, peers act and look this way.' 

Lucas Akai  41:30 

Right. 

Daniel Snyder  41:32 

I don't know. It, in context, in relation to your question, I think. I think I do need to be personally proactive about pursuing support, that people expect me to be the one that could go,  there would be aware enough to get it for myself if I needed it. Whereas, you know, we might be inclined to have a meeting together about who else we think we need support. And so, you know, and neglect ourselves, right? Is, that's often what, the caretakers often neglect themselves.  

Lucas Akai  42:08 

Right, yep. 

Daniel Snyder  42:13 

So, yeah, I mean, I think that it's important that I carry myself the way I always I do, just to, to allow another narrative to be there, right? We can't, it doesn't always have to be the same story. And so, it's okay.  

Lucas Akai  42:33 

And so do you find that there are avenues of sport that you would like to have or need to have that you don't have access to?  

Daniel Snyder  42:41 

Oh, well, I would love to have a personal like, psychologist on call for like, you know, 24/7 and someone else can pay for him and then I just, anytime. So yeah, I don't have access to that kind of support. 

Daniel Snyder  42:55 

But yeah, I think, I mean, by all means, the more therapy the better in this, this world, right? I think people I mean, I, I like professional help. But I think more important is social help from from other peers and from other trusted friends and family. And I don't feel great. I feel okay. I feel okay about it. I don't feel great about that, that network around me. Like, I think about this, and I think about the people that are, I could confide in or disclose it or talk to you that would be supportive in that way. And I feel what's missing is like older, wiser people. I don't have much older, wiser voices in my life. That's an interesting thing to think about. Yeah. 

Lucas Akai  43:56 

Some sage wisdom. Do you find that in regards to how you handle trauma and death? Do you think you've received enough training to face these challenges? 

Daniel Snyder  44:09 

Oh uh, no. I would say, I don't even know if I would take training. I probably would because I am a learner. And I would be, but I would be like, very technically, in my approach, I'd be like, 'oh, what can I learn to pass on to other people?' I don't know. Am I weird? Like, does this just not affect me as heavily as it affects other people? I wonder that, like, I mean, I'm not. What would be like the extreme? What would be a person who cares, doesn't care about anything? And it's like, just, I'm not like that. I have compassion, but I seem to have some ability to be like 'Well, I still got to move forward. You know, I can't be, I can't be devastated by this thing.' It's sad. It's It's heartbreaking, you know, and you know how that stops some people from doing anything. Like I can't --  

Daniel Snyder  45:12 

right -- 

Daniel Snyder  45:12 

not keep going. So, yeah, you know how some people say, I think it's a dumb saying, 'Oh, I'll sleep when I'm dead.' Like sleep is very important. But, so you can't sleep when you're dead. You need to get sleep now. But, but I was like, 'well, maybe I'll process death when I'm dead.' How about that? 

Lucas Akai  45:33 

Is it really sleep if you don't wake up after?  

Daniel Snyder  45:36 

Yeah.  

Lucas Akai  45:39 

So beineg mindful of time, I don't think we're going to get to any specific instances today, but we do have next week for those.  

Daniel Snyder  45:49 

Okay. 

Lucas Akai  45:49 

However, in terms of setting up the foundation and context, are there are other aspects that you want to explore before we get to specific instances or other avenues that relate to that, that might help set the stage for next week when it might be more like, you know, experience driven in the sense of like, stories of individuals?  

Daniel Snyder  46:09 

Well, what's interesting is that I'm realising that I haven't put a lot of intentional thought into this. I guess it's more. Again, I'm just becoming aware of like, I seem to have an ability to deal with this in a way that's not burdening me too much... It might be just the season I'm in like, I'm in a more of a season of like, okay, it's, it's sliding off my back a little easier than usual, or than at other times. Partially, there's an acceptance of this. And I think that that's related to really understanding the research, really understanding the drug market, and really understanding our drug laws. And concluding, there's no chance that this comes to an end anytime soon.  

Daniel Snyder  47:20 

And when I really realised that, like, I almost feel like I remember that moment, like, oh, I read, I had read, I was reading some research or something, I was like,' oh, oh, oh, this is not going to end, this is it,' like, this is going to carry on for years. And I think that was a really tough season. But I came out of that, like, knowing I had to either had to come to accept terms with that, like accept it, and you keep doing the work. And, or if you don't come to acceptance with it, you won't be able to do the work because you will be consumed by frustration and emotion, and all that. So I'd say probably I realised that about a year and a half, two years ago, and and I think ever since then, it's gotten a lot easier to keep doing what I do, because I'm not in some kind of delusion that I'm going to end this thing. So. 

Lucas Akai  48:15 

So you, so you mentioned, like, this idea of seasons where, you know, at times, you know, you handle things better, and at other times maybe worse. And of course, you mentioned the that period during summer, Overdose Memorial Day, like, I believe you mentioned August and September in particular. So with that in mind with these different seasons, had you been approached, or you had seen this project at that time was, you know, let's say it was going to occur during those months. And you had taken part, first off, maybe would you have taken part? Or do you think that at that time it just wouldn't be on your radar? And -- 

Daniel Snyder  48:57 

great question -- 

Lucas Akai  48:57 

 how would your answers be different if you had taken part? 

Daniel Snyder  49:01 

I. So yeah, I probably wouldn't have, so that just as a capacity issue, I think I was just aware that I was at capacity at that time. And um, and part of me knows that there's a sacrifice to be made here. Like anything worth doing has, gonna have some pain and suffering attached to it. Some sacrifice is important. So. So yeah, I probably would have just had the awareness to be like, 'Nope, that's too much. I'm not engaging with it.' But certainly had I engaged, if you caught me in that window, where my like, you know, ego and anger were elevated. The, one of the things you would certainly have noticed is that the, there was a lot less levity. Like I was just frustrated all the time, right. So more more you would just be getting a version of me that was just more are focused on the negative side of all of this.  

Daniel Snyder  50:03 

And, like maybe the hope and optimism had been stripped away for a season, right? And I think that that's an inevitability with, you know, with, with burnout, like, it's a protection mechanism, in a sense. And so, yeah, it's, I'm glad I didn't chat with you during that season. But, you know, it might have been a good perspective to get captured at the same time, but, you know, much prefer this version of me. 

Daniel Snyder  50:08 

I'm sure we do too, but you know, a perspective to reflect on maybe if you'd taken part back to back. 

Daniel Snyder  50:42 

Yeah. And I mean, the anger side of things, and we've talked about this is not invalid.  

Lucas Akai  50:47 

No.  

Daniel Snyder  50:47 

Right? I mean, so. And I think maybe that's where I got hung up on is that a lot of times, when you look at that stuff, it's like, oh, okay, I get it, I get why that person is so angry. But for me, I'm, I'm more, I want to focus on what's effective.  

Lucas Akai  51:04 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  51:05 

So it might be valid, it might make, you know, have a valid reason, but it might not be the most effective, so. 

Lucas Akai  51:14 

Well, Daniel, I think that sets the foundation for next week, next week -- 

Daniel Snyder  51:19 

cool --  

Lucas Akai  51:19 

we'll be going over specific instances and maybe more experiences that you've had and how those, like, directly affected you as a person. 

Caitlin Burritt  51:26 

That brings us to the end of this episode of the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. To listen to more interviews in the series, please go to www.unsilencingstories.com, and if you'd like to share your thoughts on the episode, message us at unsilencingstories@gmail.com. Thank you for listening.