Daniel Snyder: Interview 9: Death, Trauma & Final Thoughts

In this episode, you’ll hear Lucas Akai and Esther Cheung interview Daniel Snyder for the last time. Daniel talks about a recent overdose death in the community, and the trauma peers face due to high turnover from death and burn out. He discusses which stressors have changed and which have stayed the same over the course of the interview process.

This interview was recorded on December 14, 2022.

Transcript

Caitlin Burritt  00:00 

Thank you for listening to the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. We are in the midst of a public health crisis. More than 32,000 people in Canada have died from fatal opioid overdoses since 2016 according to Health Canada. Previously, this podcast featured interviews with bereaved people in smaller towns and communities in BC and Alberta who have lost loved ones to fatal overdose. In this phase, we're sharing interviews with seven harm reduction workers, also known as peers, in different parts of BC. 

Caitlin Burritt  00:27 

The BC Centre for Disease Control Harm Reduction Services defines harm reduction as support services and strategies that aim to keep people safe and minimise death, disease and injury from high risk behaviour. Peers face a lot of challenges. This has been documented by many researchers including Zahra Mamdani and colleagues in BC. In their 2021 paper they outline significant challenges peers face including financial struggles, difficulty finding housing and stressors at work. We wanted to explore these themes with peers and find out more about their experiences and share this information with the public. So we conducted multiple remote interviews with harm reduction workers and invited them to talk about the stressors they face.   

Caitlin Burritt  01:06 

Please note this podcast contains information about substance use, overdose death, grief, trauma and stressors that peers face and this may be distressing to listen to. The podcast is part of a research project led by Aaron Goodman, PhD, faculty member at Kwantlen Polytechnic University in Surrey, BC, and conducted under the auspices of a grant known as the Chancellor's Chair Award. I'm Caitlin Burritt, a researcher with the project. A number of researchers including Giorgia Ricciardi and Chloe Burritt, who happens to be my sister, and a number of students have played key roles in the study and you'll hear many of their voices in this podcast. 

Caitlin Burritt  01:40 

In this episode, you'll hear Lucas Akai and Esther Cheung interview Daniel Snyder for the last time. Daniel talks about a recent overdose death in the community and the trauma peers face due to high turnover from death and burnout. Lucas, Esther and Daniel review the list of stressors to see if he has noticed any changes in how the five stressors including: financial insecurity, housing insecurity, challenges referring individuals to resources, lack of respect and recognition at work, and exposure to death and trauma, impact his experience as a peer. Daniel reflects on which stresses have changed and which have stayed the same over the course of the interview process. 

Esther Cheung  02:13 

Alright. How are you doing, Daniel?  

Daniel Snyder  02:17 

I'm a little tired today. It's been a long week already, but I'm good. 

Esther Cheung  02:21 

How, how so? How's the week? 

Daniel Snyder  02:24 

Uh, I've been shifting my schedule around and I've been getting going earlier in the morning. So -- 

Esther Cheung  02:30 

yeah -- 

Daniel Snyder  02:31 

and thanks for juggling this for me, I had a project come up in Tsawwassen and I wasn't sure how much work it really was or how much driving I was going to be doing. 

Esther Cheung  02:41 

Yeah, it's quite the commute. 

Daniel Snyder  02:44 

Yeah, I don't go out there that often. It's like an hour and a half of driving a day.  

Esther Cheung  02:48 

Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah. And how what job was that? Is it, is it [indiscernible] --  

Daniel Snyder  02:55 

that's  with, that's painting work. 

Lucas Akai  02:58 

Right. 

Daniel Snyder  02:58 

So yeah.  

Lucas Akai  02:59 

That's a long drive for painting. 

Daniel Snyder  03:02 

Yeah, good customers, though, so it's okay. 

Esther Cheung  03:05 

Okay. 

Lucas Akai  03:06 

This marks, kind of, the last interview.  

Daniel Snyder  03:10 

Right.  

Lucas Akai  03:10 

This marks nine and ten.  

Daniel Snyder  03:12 

Okay. 

Lucas Akai  03:12 

So we've been talking for about, you know, three months now.  

Daniel Snyder  03:16 

That's amazing.  

Lucas Akai  03:17 

It is. Kind of crazy how fast the time flies, right? But so for today, briefly, we're going to touch on the death and trauma portion, just to see if there's anything else there. Then there's going to be a bit of a review portion. We're going to go back through the different stressors that we have talked about. And then if there's anything that you wanted to maybe add or any, any important topics that you felt were left out, that's part of the review. 

Daniel Snyder  03:43 

Great.  

Lucas Akai  03:44 

So maybe starting off with the death and trauma and if there's nothing here, there's nothing here. I mean, you did talk for an hour last week. Do you have any kind of, like, personal experiences or standout things that kind of have stuck with you throughout this time in your peer work? 

Daniel Snyder  04:00 

Hmm, I don't know if -- yeah, we may just end up repeating things from last week. Because I don't know if I have anything fresh to bring to that right now. You know, we had a gentleman who was one of our peer members of the CAT, So there's like seven core members, and these are folks that participate very regularly and he very suddenly died. It was an overdose so obviously, it was sudden, you know, you don't expect it. But at the same time, you kind of do. Right? You always want to believe it's not going to happen to the people that you you know, or even though you're aware of their riskierr drug use behaviours. But so he was maybe what would have been considered like a peer leader type. People really looked up to him and respected him.  

Daniel Snyder  04:58 

His death, kind of, like people just went into hiding shortly after, like after for a while, like not intentional hiding, but you know, they just weren't available, they weren't as present, they weren't around. It's kind of like, we talk all the time about connection and the importance of connection being kind of like the antidote to people who are struggling with addiction. And when it when the suffering is really intense, or when the death is right in their faces, it's always easier to disconnect. And so, you know, this is probably one space where, like, the the people, the faces, the names, like people come and go, advocates especially people that are, are kind of activist types, peers, they come and go, like, there's different ones that were with us years ago, that are no longer, some have died, and some have burned out and some have just maybe given up, I don't know.  

Daniel Snyder  05:59 

But the fact that there's so much of that turnover and inconsistency and like, even even among the, the leader types, will that person be here tomorrow? Can I rely on them? Like, is that doesn't exist, right, in this space, it seems because there's so much turnover, even amongst the professionals. Like we had so many Fraser Health folks that were engaged with the work and then just were no longer and through no fault of their own other than, you know, they have a manager who tells them to go do something else. And so again, you, and they're engaged with peers, and then all of a sudden, they're gone, right? So you create more inconsistency for people who are, already struggle with inconsistency in their lives, and maybe maybe need some stability and we don't provide that in the systems around them. And then the fact that death is a, the other real component of this.  

Daniel Snyder  07:10 

I think it puts everyone on hyper alert all the time, you kind of in that tension, living in the tension of like, wanting to hope for the best, I was just with someone last night doing some outreach, and she was one of our peers, and wonderful person, very engaged, loves doing this work, motivated, for good reasons. And then, you know, later does the night, wound up that she was going to stay behind with some folks. And it was she didn't explicitly say so but it was pretty apparent that she was going to stay with these people that she connected with and use and, and spend some time with them.  

Lucas Akai  07:48 

Yeah. 

Daniel Snyder  07:49 

I have no judgement on that but I certainly have fears, ight? And, and, and an awareness that I want adults to be able to choose to engage in risky behaviour if they're properly informed, but also don't want them to do it either. So kind of torn right? In that sense. But yeah, I mean, I'm not sure if that adds too much to the conversation, but.. 

Lucas Akai  08:16 

I think it absolutely does, and maybe taking it in that direction, because it is slightly different from what we talked about last week. And it is different. When these types of things when a peer leader passes away or when and let's we'll specifically stay on topic, people have passed away that are like leaders in the space because it is more frequent. Is that something that just slows down the process of peer work advocacy? Or does it, you know, put the whole like advocacy programme like steps back [indiscernible]? 

Daniel Snyder  08:46 

I mean, I think it does. I mean, it can have both effects. I think it does tend to slow things down because the wind goes out of people's sails for a time and grief is a more dominant emotion. But at the same time we've seen high profile deaths motivate people to action, and be the catalysts and community or in the news. At the same time, I'm a little pessimistic about that hopefulness. Like in Langley we had these high profile shootings murders in the summertime, where homeless people were apparently targeted and killed. And it's, it's a crime that has no ex, like it's senseless, without explanation, like it doesn't have a motivation that people understand. Right? So for that reason, it's a little confounding, like maybe that didn',t maybe that didn't motivate the community in the way that we might hope because it's kind of like, this was really weird like, these things almost never happen.  

Daniel Snyder  09:53 

But you know, at the same time there was this like it really intense, like, we gotta protect these people and see how marginalised and vulnerable they are. And that existed within community and among community leaders and I got multiple emails and phone calls from community members who were suddenly wanting to be motivated to action and to do things. But it died off really quick, both in the news, in the media, but also like in terms of community energy, community momentum. It's like people completely forgot about that thing after two or three weeks, which is just devastating to say, because there's lives who will never be forgotten by the people who love them. But the community was like, 'well, we don't know how to deal with this, or even how to get behind this and use this to motivate us to action.'  

Daniel Snyder  10:46 

So everyone, just kind of, probably, the energy dwindled away, right? And that, I think, is something that, I mean, you wish it wouldn't take catastrophic events to motivate people to action? But I mean, I guess if everything was perfect all the time, then. It seems necessary, right? Unfortunately. 

Lucas Akai  11:09 

And so how often do you find that, you know, peer work? Do you? Well, do you find peer work to be defined by like, it's the motivation? And most of the changes come through, like short spurts of motivation, versus momentum motivation? 

Daniel Snyder  11:26 

Even small accomplishments. And I see that at work as a detriment, like, holding us back. Often in, in the work with people I'm engaged with, that, that frustrations are embedded in the things that they can't do anything about. And so you actually stop putting, like you're distracted from the things you can do, where your energy should go. It's like, okay, you realised that you're not, you know, Prime Minister, and you can't effectively get drug laws changed tomorrow, or next week. So we're going to be realistic about that. You can be frustrated by that and let that take you away from doing anything. Which it does, I think some people, they just throw their hands in the air and give up, because they think no change will happen.  

Daniel Snyder  11:26 

I. Well, I like that idea of short spurts. It seems to be, that does seem to be how it happens often, is, I mean, and we're not. Because you're not in a nine to five, Monday to Friday, and you have a to do list, so to speak. You know, when are we ever done? Right? Our work is never done. Actually, that's one of the great things about being a painter in some respect is like that, you know, when you finish the job, right? And you can pat yourself on the back to say job well done. But with this work, like, you never get that right, there is no reprieve or sense of accomplishment, if you know. How did I hear it put the other day, it was the curse of the progressive or something? You can't, like, appreciate or enjoy anything if one person is suffering. So it's like, we want to alleviate all suffering. And because we haven't succeeded at that yet. We're not allowed to celebrate anything, right?  

Daniel Snyder  12:34 

Or you can look at what's right in front of you and do what you can and that's what we're, I guess, mostly trying to do and in, in the way that we motivate people, it seems that the only way to go about it is in small spurts like that, where we come up with an idea or a project or something that has a tangible goal that's near, near, not far in the distance. And we plan for that, and and then you take and celebrate the small victories that come with that, like, maybe a changed mind, or a person who learned something new and acknowledges that and that that's the incremental change that we are after, right?  

Daniel Snyder  14:03 

And so yeah, death tends to hinder that process. Because the people doing the work most often are the most marginalised, most close to the issue, most vulnerable. They're the ones who are, you know, injecting Naloxone into people and reversing overdoses. They're the ones who are seeing the, you know, the devastation on a day to day basis. And so, because that takes a toll if someone close to them dies, it generally isn't a motivator at that point in time, or at least not in the, in the immediate future, right. Right.  

Lucas Akai  14:43 

Right. Yeah. And so maybe moving, because we have talked a lot about death and trauma, moving into something slightly different. And staying on topic of like this momentum, the idea of momentum within peer work. Do you think that that's something that is fed and maybe kept going, the idea and you came up with this term a couple weeks ago of like, gig work within the peer space? Like in an effort to create things that can be done, you know, with an accomplishment at the end like we've done this? 

Daniel Snyder  15:15 

Yeah, I mean, I feel like there's a couple of things going on and really, some of it depends on who the facilitators are, like, who are the peer leaders, who are the peer coordinators, who are the people that are kind of working with them, to whatever it is? To create projects, to get them engaged with work, to have them providing input, I think that, that person approaches it, there's many ways to approach it. One is like a very private, primarily relational perspective, like, 'here I am, a community leader or peer coordinator, and I'm going to build relationships with these people.' And so the goal is all around that relationship. And, and through that you generate work, you create opportunity, etcetera, they get paid.  

Daniel Snyder  16:09 

But you know, you're, you're centering it in the fact that you care about these people. And so when that, when that's the approach, I think it's, there's over and above, in terms of the give to those people. And it's not just checking a box, how many hours did you work? Okay, you get $35, or whatever. It's much more, right, it's much more human interaction. So with that approach, which is my preference, people, people buy in. And they're willing to, it's not just, it's not just for the money, they buy in because they see they're valued as people. And because they see that this is something meaningful to be a part of. And somehow we can't lose that. Right? Somehow that, that's, because I've, been I've had peers, been connected to peers. And I wouldn't want to like, this isn't grounds for not engaging with this person, by like, it's clear that they treat it as just work. Like, I'm only here for the money, I don't really care what I do.  

Daniel Snyder  17:33 

And it's I don't really care about the people I'm interacting with. And, you know, I've seen that actually shift some people where they were engaged and the original motivations were very clearly passion and care and concern, and it's become a job. And the passion has gone from it, right? And so I don't know, my question is how, what's our responsibility in that, like, how do we keep people motivated for the right reasons, and not allow the compensation to be, like, not allow this to only become jobs. And I'm a little worried that it could become that at some points in time, and that we're selling people short, like, because if this is just a job for some people, maybe they're actually capable of a lot more, maybe they're actually like, should be directed into something that has more opportunity, and more of a future for them.  

Daniel Snyder  18:33 

And that, that we're by, we're not inspiring that in them, by keeping them engaged in this kind of work that actually is very limited, it does, obviously, it doesn't have a great opportunity for growth and, and promotion, and all that sort of stuff. So hopefully, we're encouraging that. More so than just you know, because we need peers as part of our work.  

Lucas Akai  19:00 

So before we transition into the kind of like, the more review aspect of the questions, just out of curiosity, how much additional hours or extra work you think you'd have to do to be able to cut out like a niche where you could call this a career for yourself, like, yourself? 

Daniel Snyder  19:20 

Well, for me, I don't think it would be possible because of the unreliability of the work, like the, the unpredictability of the length, like, we discussed last week, or previously, like with grant work and limited contracts and stuff. I mean, I say that and yet, that's kind of how I've lived most of my life, is not knowing how secure my job is. So it's just not the ideal way to go about it, I suppose, right? So I mean, with the opportunities that I have, if I could carve out, if I could work 40 hours in a week, then it would be more than sufficient to be a sustainable life. But it's, I don't see it as sustainable because I don't know that those 40 hours would be there in six months. And what other opportunities would I have to take or drop? And, and that sort of thing.  

Daniel Snyder  20:20 

A lot of these projects are siloed or they're, obviously, they're not related to one another, they're not interacting with one another. So it's not ideal to, you know, all this. Try and piece it together, when you really have no control over your schedule. If the one group wants you Mondays from one till five, and the next group wants you Tuesdays, it's, it's chaos. I can't imagine people trying to live off of peer work, and not in this sense, right. The only ones that I know that have made it like a career are ones that end up getting hired like by the BC Centre of Substance Use or BC CDC or, like, a Drug Policy Alliance thing, that kind of thing, those kind of folks. So limited, there's not many positions like that available, right? 

Lucas Akai  21:17 

So very competitive, I would imagine. And so the review questions, were pretty well going to be asking questions like exact questions that we had asked previously in this, like kind of the interview process. And if you know, the answers are shorter, that's completely fine. We're just mainly looking for changes, if any, at all.  

Daniel Snyder  21:35 

Okay. 

Lucas Akai  21:35 

So we'll start kind of in the financial stressors section. Do you still find that you receive enough financial compensation for the work that you do? 

Daniel Snyder  21:44 

Most of the time. Most of the time, yeah. 

Lucas Akai  21:47 

Yeah. Has there been any new instances where you find that that hasn't really been present? 

Daniel Snyder  21:54 

No, not, nothing new. 

Lucas Akai  21:56 

And so in terms of, because I know in past weeks, we've discussed this aspect, do you find that most of the times or, you know, that the money that you do receive is appropriate for the information that you're sharing? Or for the stories that you're, you know, sharing your experiences that you're telling? 

Daniel Snyder  22:14 

Yeah, I do think so. In my opinion, mostly what I've received is appropriate. But I know we've discussed this in, more in depth, and I'm definitely bear witness to payments that I don't think are sufficient. 

Lucas Akai  22:31 

And so I don't want to assume your answer, but I'm assuming it's going to be no on this question. But do you find that the financial compensation makes this a feasible career? 

Daniel Snyder  22:39 

Yeah, it generally, it doesn't look like it for most people. Yeah. 

Lucas Akai  22:45 

Yeah. And so moving into the stressors regarding respect and recognition of the workplace, do you find it you're still, has there been any change the amount of respect or recognition you're receiving as a peer worker?  

Daniel Snyder  22:56 

Change between when and when?  

Lucas Akai  22:59 

Since, since we've started the interviews, or if you want -- 

Lucas Akai  23:02 

oh, okay -- 

Lucas Akai  23:02 

to look at the larger scale, since you started working as a peer? 

Daniel Snyder  23:06 

Um, I wouldn't say like that I experienced anything that's notable. And if I did, it would be unrelated to that. I think it's more. Yeah, no, I don't need to expand on that. That's fine.  

Lucas Akai  23:24 

Sure, sure. Do you find that there's new, let's say new barriers as a peer in terms of the jobs that you can take or can't take? 

Daniel Snyder  23:36 

Well, I don't know if we talked about this, but you know, I mean, certainly, some jobs have barriers, because of the agencies that are running them. So for instance, the job that I took as a peer, a stepping stone required, they required a driver's licence, but, which would be a major barrier for some people, right? But the nature of the work that they were after, the kind of design that they had in mind, that would have made it virtually impossible for someone that didn't drive. So that was, that was their thing. But I know that they were hiring a CAT coordinator in another city, and they wanted to do a criminal record check, which I thought was really surprising. Now, I wasn't clear on precisely what they were looking for there. And it can be assumed that if you had like a drug possession charge or something along those lines, like that wouldn't disqualify you from that job, I would hope. Right? 

Daniel Snyder  24:35 

But the fact that they were doing a criminal record check, I just, I heard some comments from others who thought it was pretty surprising, but my understanding was that, like, the agency that was holding the funds, that was in their, you know, their, their, their charter or their constitution, like, they were required to do criminal record checks on all their employees. So their hands are kind of tied, right? And that, that, those are barriers that peers would face. Normally we anticipate facing that in the real world, you know, this is one of our angles, like, 'hey, people have been criminalised for drug possession and look at the opportunities that have been stolen from them for the for the future, just because they you know, had a joint or something like that,' or whatever it might have been. And now we're, like, hiring peers inside of agencies that say, 'sorry, we got to do a criminal record check, because that's our policy first,' it seems strange. 

Lucas Akai  25:38 

And so, in regards to the referring individuals to resources and experiences with individuals, have you found any new challenges when it comes to referring individuals you work with to resources in the community? 

Daniel Snyder  25:51 

I think this is the number one challenge all the time, often, one of the number one challenges all the time. It is always really hard to know, like, where to send, like where to direct a person. Like what will meet their needs? Like? There's always like so many questions, you kind of need to find out first in order to like, assess, like to narrow the list, you have to constantly be narrowing the list, right? And, and it's just not easy. I mean, there's so many variables with trying to get people referred to places from the from the mundane, like literally explaining how to get there, like, which streets to walk down or something like that. Which can, surprisingly enough, be beyond what some people are even capable of absorbing and doing, right? The idea of getting yourself eight blocks to some agency at some point in time.  

Daniel Snyder  27:00 

So yeah, it's always a never ending challenge. And I think community agencies or public health is always trying to like, streamline the referral. And who are the agencies? Who's responsible for what and I mean, here's a question I get all the time right now is 'what, where's the extreme weather shelte for Langley?' Well, we don't really have one, we have one, Gateway of Hope, and half the people are banned from there. So. That's an exaggeration, I'm sure. But, you know, there's no women's shelter. And and, and so it's problematic that they, it's the only place. That's, so what, people email me, they call me they ask me, 'where's the extreme [weather]?' I don't have an answer. So how do I make that referral?  

Lucas Akai  27:48 

And so maybe speaking to specific instances that happened raised over these past weeks, is frequently we've talked about the hot tents that you guys have been setting up on a temporary basis. Has there been any change in that regard, in terms of the challenges to set those up or obstacles in regards to that? 

Daniel Snyder  28:07 

There has Yes. So what we discovered fairly quickly with the weather, because the weather turned really, really quite suddenly.  

Daniel Snyder  28:16 

And got quite cold, and also we had the snow in there. And it seems that with the colder weather, people are not in the downtown core, as many people are, and they're not mobile, they're not really moving around the downtown core. They have gone before it gets dark, so by 4:30pm or so, into hiding, into their camps or into their, they're hunkering down somewhere. They're not doing as much wandering, wandering. And that's probably for a few reasons one, well it's, gets dark. So you want to set your stuff up when you can see and make sure everything's, you know, secure. Two, with the weather, unpredictability, you really don't want to be exposed to rain or snow or if it's dark, and cold, three, with the cold and the temperatures dropping at night, you obviously want to make sure you're set up so you can be warm before that happens. 

Lucas Akai  28:16 

Right. 

Daniel Snyder  29:14 

So there's like really not going to be anyone that would use the tents, between say 5 and 10pm on a weeknight. We feel that that's, we've discovered that that's maybe not a viable time, and that they need to be up in the daytime. And so now we have a new problem with our, with volunteers, is that most volunteers work regular daytime jobs and if they do the volunteering and this kind of thing, it's after work hours. So it's a bit of a catch 22 with trying to set them up and not really having the people that can do it at the times when they would be utilised. So what they have been doing is mobile harm reduction, which is basically just take a waggon loaded with harm reduction supplies and socks, hand warmers, waters, juice boxes, snacks, and just wander the core and find people in their places and just ask them what they need and interact with them there.  

Daniel Snyder  30:20 

But it doesn't have witnessed. I mean, it's not really witnessed substance use, witness overdose prevention, it could be if someone like happened to use in front of us, then you witnessing it and you would respond if needed. But mostly, it's what would be called outreach, I guess mobile outreach, mobile harm reduction, which is an excellent thing and I'm glad to be a part of it. It might, where I'm challenged is kind of my more administrative slash professional role with the CAT is that this mobile outreach thing actually doesn't really fit into the scope of our overdose prevention work.  

Daniel Snyder  31:01 

And so the people that are really passionate about that, and it's like, I'm like, they want funding. And I'm like, but you're not doing any overdose prevention right now and we're required to, like be focused on that. And so, you know, again, I find myself torn in wanting to do good, but knowing that our mandate is primarily around overdose education and prevention. And that, that, really, we can't just direct all those funds to, like, oranges and juice boxes for homeless people. Because that's, probably would end up not being good with the funders, right?  

Lucas Akai  31:41 

Sure, sure. 

Daniel Snyder  31:41 

Unfortunately, even though that needs to be done too, of course. So. But there's other agencies that take care of that, so. 

Lucas Akai  31:49 

Right. And so just maybe to paint the picture in a little more detail. In terms of numbers, because you mentioned there has been a dramatic drop in participation with the hot tents, maybe do you have an estimate, like, what were you seeing kind of at the start of the season, compared to now? 

Daniel Snyder  32:08 

I don't know that there was a sufficient number of setups for us to really collect, like, like data, that would be accurate.  

Lucas Akai  32:17 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  32:17 

Like, other than just one offs. Because still, in that early, early learning curve.  

Lucas Akai  32:25 

For sure.  

Daniel Snyder  32:25 

But like, you know, we, the first couple of times maybe a dozen people would come by and, and then once that weather hit, as soon as the snow came, then it was like pretty much, there was nobody around, or one or two people. So it just really showed that it wasn't may be viable at that time of day. They don't want to come to you. And even if you are providing a warming space where it's making, because that's the other idea right now is maybe just set them up as as warming shelters, once the wet, when the weather stops again here next week, which it looks like it will. If you're only setting it up for three hours, and you know, the person who has to trudge, 30 minutes there, 30 minutes back and you get cold both ways, and you just get to sit there for a couple hours, maybe only one hour, is not worth it like --  

Lucas Akai  33:19 

right --  

Daniel Snyder  33:21 

because it's not a permanent location, and they can't spend an extended period of time there. And I mean, it also doesn't have a heck of a lot other amenities to maybe make it worthwhile, right? For some people to to go out of their way to come. 

Lucas Akai  33:36 

And so maybe moving into just things that we've covered over these different weeks, not necessarily relating to stressors. The number one thing is, you know, a couple of weeks ago, we talked about the ways in which you have to maybe self-censor, or you do just in general censor yourself. Have you found that there's been any change kind of in that regard? Are you finding that you're still maybe self-censoring, in the same ways? Has it become more open to talk about certain things or less open to talking about other things? 

Daniel Snyder  34:07 

I thought about that a little bit. I mean, I generally, I often don't think about it as self-censoring as much as like, this isn't the right time in place. It's like, maybe if I had you one on one, I would say something, but you know, in this room, like I'll just, there's no reason to bring this up. So I mean, that's probably always going to be a component of like, navigating the spaces, when is it appropriate to bring things up? And that sort of thing. I mean, personally, I'm, I'm definitely striving to just say what I think more often. And if I, if I actually articulate it in a like, 'Hey, I'm trying to figure this out. I, help me understand, we're learning together' then maybe even if it's an idea that's outside the box, like, people can engage with it without? Yeah. sounding?  

Lucas Akai  35:09 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  35:09 

Like I'm figuring it out. 

Lucas Akai  35:12 

Right. Well, one area that you mentioned kind of specifically was that it's, maybe not necessarily a taboo, but it's not as frequently talked about is kind of like, the opposite side of the whole peer work, which is that, you know, on one hand, negative drug use does have negative consequences. And I know that we've discussed a couple weeks ago how that's not really talked about with, like, safer supply or these other aspects. Have you found any change in that regard? Or is that something you think is just gonna kind of stick around? 

Daniel Snyder  35:47 

I wouldn't, I wouldn't say there's been any change. But I think maybe just reflecting on that. I'm fascinated, or sometimes maybe surprised by the dual opinions held by people. Like, you know, I'm working with someone who's very, actually one of the more vocal safe supply advocates that I know, this person is very, like, believes in it, pushing it, pushing for it, etcetera. But, you know, in a very candid moment, privately talked to me about how much they hate drugs, and how they hate the destruction that drugs cause in people's lives.  

Daniel Snyder  36:36 

And just, but it was more raw in the moment, it was more like "I just hate, I hate drugs, I hate drugs,' you know, kinda like just this emotional, like, because of the destruction that they caused in the lives of people that are close to them. And so it's interesting how you can add, how you can be both things, you know, at the same time, like, I know that drugs destroy people's lives, but I also know that like giving people drugs that are labelled, regulated, that are pure, is a better way to go about this, rather than just letting them you know, die. And so. Yeah, what was the original question? 

Lucas Akai  37:25 

It was kind of has there been a change or any new development?  

Daniel Snyder  37:29 

Well, it to me, it just makes me think that it's just the importance of being in relationship with these people and like, getting down to, 'Hey, why do you do this? Why are you motivated to do this work? What's this about for you, what drives you?' And, and people, even though we're in this anti-stigma, and like, let's connect culture, people  are, to want it, they're hesitant, they don't want to open up all the time, they don't want to be vulnerable, and they don't want to expose their, their stuff. And you know, I think if we want change, we have to lead by example, we have to be the vulnerable ones that, you know, so. It's tough. 

Lucas Akai  38:10 

And this is just to provide some context for some of our past conversations. How much interaction is there between, like, the Langley CAT team, and CAT teams from other areas, or --  

Daniel Snyder  38:24 

oh --  

Lucas Akai  38:24 

just generally, peer organisations in general, how much interaction is there or cooperation? 

Daniel Snyder  38:30 

Not nearly enough, and so here's the way I see that. Each CAT is pretty preoccupied with their own work, obviously, and generally stretched, like, you know, just not enough hours or dollars, time, to, to do what they really want to do. And so none of them are really going to be the initiative takers, generally speaking, when it comes to, like networking.  

Lucas Akai  38:58 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  38:59 

Now, so multiple times over the last five years, people have started regional CAT meetings, which would be like, the CAT chairs, or coordinators from each of the CATs come together once a month, two months. I've only attended two, maybe three of those in like all, in the five years. And they just, they're at the bottom of the priority list.  

Daniel Snyder  39:26 

So that was just, that's how I'll put it. When I, when all the meetings come in, and all the emails and it's like schedule this schedule, a regional CAT is at the bottom. It's like if I'm available that day, and I have nothing going on then I'll just, I'll sign in. But otherwise it's very, it's not even getting on the calendar. So. And that's just because I mean, I guess people what's, what's the fruit that's going to come with it? The best for me is like I get to see other people's ideas and what they're doing. So CAI, the funder, they do these bimonthly, I think they're bimonthly knowledge exchanges, where they have a topic and then they they put together the presenters, the speakers, they do the legwork, and CATs come together, people from all across the province can participate in those. And it's a learning slash knowledge exchange.  

Lucas Akai  39:26 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  40:27 

That's the, and those can, those are great, great learning opportunities generally. And that's pretty much the extent of like, any kind of regional interaction. So sometimes they'll have a breakout room for, for 15 minutes and you might spend some of that talking to somebody in another CAT in another city. Outside of that, like even other agencies in Langley that employ peers don't spend a lot of extra lifetime interacting outside of their agency. Langely's okay, at this, sometimes, you know, there's things that work better than others, like the ICM team is, the intensive case management team, they actually have employees on their team from multiple agencies.  

Daniel Snyder  41:16 

Which is really [interesting], I don't know how their funding works. You know, two people work for Stepping Stone and they're on the ICM team, two people work for Langley Community Services, they're on the ICM team, two people work for Encompass and they're also on the ICM. And it's like, brilliant, because you get all these, there's that interaction that overlap and all the agencies are connected in that regard. But you know, one of the biggest challenges with peer work and pure coordination too, is just changing, like connection, changing phone numbers, changing email addresses, not rapid connection, lack of transportation, inability to reach people in a reasonable and appropriate period of time, people disappearing for multiple days on end without responding to messages. All those things make any amount of administration in this area and organisation difficult. And that makes it worse, right? The fact that you're often, it's often hard to get messages passed and that sort of thing. So. 

Lucas Akai  42:27 

And so maybe staying on that topic really quickly. In regards to like, you know, peer organisation, cooperation, campaigns, is there a way that you see that there could be greater benefits beyond just like information sharing, or is that kind of just, that's like, kind of like the hard cap on any type of?  

Daniel Snyder  42:47 

Well, I would like to see some better coordination on advocacy work. I don't know how to put this together. I don't know if I have the skill set. But some of the more effective, like, effective advocacy campaign needs to go beyond one municipality. And like, this is where we could partner with other CATs and really have an idea of a theme. But I don't think CATs are generally composed of advocates. I think that there are advocates in CATs. But it's not like the average person that's there. I mean, I think one of the very easiest things that any person in this space could do is write letters to your MPs, to your city councillors, to your MLAs to and people don't do that.  

Daniel Snyder  43:39 

Even when you give them a template, and you pre-write the letter, like, none of that, the only thing that actually works is when it's printed out, and all they have to do is sign it.  

Lucas Akai  43:52 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  43:53 

Then they'll do it and then you fold it and put it in the envelope and mail it. They'll do that. But anything short of that anything that requires more than a signature, people won't do it. And they call themselves like, and then they're on Facebook 'I'm a passionate advocate. I gotta change this. I've never written a letter to a government official in my life because I'm too lazy.' We got to change this! 

Lucas Akai  44:15 

Right. 

Daniel Snyder  44:16 

It's like, okay, put your money where your mouth is, like, stop and do something. And it's just that's my biggest pet peeve is people who like, you know, those very same people that won't write a letter and the same people are like, 'Oh, I'm so sick of meetings, all we do is meetings, we never do action.' 

Lucas Akai  44:31 

Right. And so would you say that's like -- 

Daniel Snyder  44:33 

I think I know what I'm saying next time someone says that. I'm like, 'when's the last time you wrote a letter to an MP?' Okay. Don't you dare complain about inaction. 

Lucas Akai  44:44 

Absolutely. So that's the common, like, denominator. That's the average within, like, peer advocates in quotation marks.  

Daniel Snyder  44:53 

Yeah, I think so. I mean, it's and maybe who knows what plays into that a myriad of human factors right like. Maybe I'm incompetent? I can't write a letter or maybe like that, is that is truly beyond me or, or what difference will it make? You know? Or where do I meet? Or who do I send it to? And all these things stop people from taking action. And, you know...I mean, action isn't for everyone. So I'm not going to be a critic of like, you know, if you haven't written a letter, I'm not like, 'you're off the team, you're lazy.' That's not what I mean. It's like, everybody's got their niche and what they could be good at. And like I said, I don't think CATs are generally made up of advocates, like, so I don't expect that to be the nature of a lot of people.  

Daniel Snyder  45:43 

And a lot of people truly wouldn't have any clue of what to write in a letter like that. I mean, under, this issue is complicated. It's layered, and I bet if I. A lot of the people within our own CAT couldn't really even properly articulate, like, if you just asked them point, like, explain the Toxic Drug Poisoning Crisis and write -- 

Lucas Akai  46:05 

right.  

Daniel Snyder  46:06 

It would be very difficult because it's nuanced and complex and built on layers over time, right? So hopefully people, you know, we want the general public to understand it. But I know I work with people who, doctors and stuff who don't even understand it, right? Public health people. So yeah.  

Lucas Akai  46:28 

And so kind of as like our last of the review, question,  cynicism, and like a cynical outlook on peer work has been something frequently brought up in our past interviews. And so just between the time that, you know, we've started the interviews, and now as of today, have you noticed any major changes in terms of the way people that you work with or yourself, like view, kind of like, the peer work that they're doing? Has it grown more cynical, just in like, these past two or three months? 

Daniel Snyder  46:58 

I think the cynicism ebbs and flows pretty, pretty regularly. And at different times for different people, probably for different reasons, right? I think that cynicism is maybe just, maybe one of the more common denominators when it comes to this kind of work. It. So yeah, I see people around me that are a little more cynical right now than they were in the summertime. And others who are, are the opposite and they've flipped. So it. Yeah, it ebbs and flows. And again, you know, many factors, considering that lots of these people are very close to the issue. What, what, how it's impacting them in that moment is going to play, play a role, right?  

Daniel Snyder  47:56 

Do you have a child who's struggling with substance use? And you know, is that in more of a low point right now, or if it is, you know, your engagement in this work, it could look different, right? Your cynicism could be spiking, or your anger or your, or your raw emotion. And so I am attempting to consistently encourage people to assess their capacity for the work and to pause whenever they can. And that there's never like an expectation or demand from me. And I treat that very differently than I do like other work, right? Like in the trades. Like 'no, sorry, you're, you're feeling a bit tired today? Get to work, buddy." But yeah, like in this space, it's a different thing. It's like, 'oh, yeah, you're you're a bit tired today. I understand. Like, if you need some space, you should take it. For sure.' 

Lucas Akai  49:06 

And so, you know, as we reach kind of review, were there, are there aspects within the five stressors or even just loosely related to them that you think, you know, we need to quickly go over or go over in general, whether it's financial insecurity, housing instability, related issues, issues around respect as a peer, whatever it might be? 

Daniel Snyder  49:28 

You know, probably not, but this is maybe a little aside or a bit of a tangent, tangent, but talking about housing instability, this is a very fascinating story I heard the other day. So we have a, we have Creekstone Place, which is supportive housing units. So it's full, I think it has 50 beds and basically every one that's in there was was once homeless, right? And so it's one of the places that if you if you can get on the list, I mean, that's that's where you're going to have a home, if you, if you're going to get off the street. So one of the peers that I know there, who was previously homeless, obviously, I was talking to her the other day. And she was telling me, she had interacted with some people who are currently homeless, and was trying to help them out.  

Daniel Snyder  50:20 

She's very kind, she wanted to actually build them a shelter behind one of the stores in town, to help them, you know, get warm, because they were just frozen, they were just cold, they could barely move. So she was building up the shelter. And, you know, they didn't show up, or they didn't come when she expected. And she ended up spending the night out there. Even though she has a home now. And now her explanation to me was 'well, I was waiting, I was waiting for these people, and I've done it for them.' But I'm reading between the lines just a little bit. And it was like there was a familiarity and a comfort with that even though she now has the security and safety of this home. It felt to me like she was engaging in this practice, like, somewhat for healing purposes, maybe, maybe for closure, but also, I think mainly for the familiarity of being homeless.  

Daniel Snyder  51:22 

And isn't that the strangest thing about, like, humans have this amazing capacity to adapt to virtually any environment. And I know when I'm out, interacting with people who are homeless. From my perspective, I have no idea how I could live that way. Like I feel like I would curl up in a ball on the side of the road and cry and die, right? Like I wouldn't survive. I would not last a night. But it's, the resilience of the human spirit is an amazing thing and the way people survive when they're homeless, and even enjoy it.  

Lucas Akai  52:00 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  52:00 

Like, even talk fondly of it. Even have fond memories of that time or, or look back on it and realise that it provided some value in their life now that they're no longer homeless.  

Lucas Akai  52:13 

Right.  

Daniel Snyder  52:15 

It's an amazing thing to just witness. Yeah, we don't. We don't have enough housing by any means, here in, for people who are homeless. Certainly need more beds. Yeah. 

Lucas Akai  52:29 

Absolutely. Well, Daniel, it's been 10 weeks, pretty well we can wrap here, I'm going to stop the recording.  

Daniel Snyder  52:34 

Yeah. 

Caitlin Burritt  52:35 

That brings us to the end of this episode of the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. To listen to more interviews in the series, please go to www.unsilencingstories.com, and if you'd like to share your thoughts on the episode, message us at unsilencingstories@gmail.com. Thank you for listening.