Unsilencing Stories
Previously, this podcast featured interviews with bereaved people in smaller communities in B.C. and Alberta who have lost loved ones to fatal opioid overdose. The project was facilitated by Aaron Goodman, Ph.D., faculty member at Kwantlen Polytechnic University in Surrey, B.C., and student researchers, Jenna Keeble and Ashley Pocrnich.
In this phase, we’re sharing interviews with seven harm reduction workers, also known as peers, in different parts of B.C. The B.C. Centre for Disease Control Harm Reduction Services defines harm reduction as “support services and strategies” that aim to keep people safe and minimize death, disease, and injury from high risk behaviour.”
Peers face a lot of challenges. This has been documented by many researchers, including Zahra Mamdani and colleagues in B.C. In their 2021 paper, they outline significant challenges peers face, including financial struggles, difficulty finding housing, and stressors at work.
We wanted to explore these themes with peers and find out more about their experiences and share this information with the public. So we conducted multiple remote interviews with harm reduction workers and invited them to talk about the stressors they face
The podcast is part of a research study led by Aaron Goodman and conducted under the auspices of the Chancellor’s Chair Award. Several researchers, including Caitlin Burritt, Chloe Burritt, and Giorgia Ricciardi, and a number of student research assistants played key roles in the study, and you’ll hear many of their voices in this podcast.
Unsilencing Stories
Daniel Snyder: Graphic Elicitation Interview
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
This episode is a graphic elicitation, which is a research method in which art produced by researchers or participants, are used to invite participants to reflect on their lived experiences, beliefs, or behaviours. You’ll hear Caitlin Burritt and Chloe Burritt interview Daniel Snyder about three pieces of artwork Chloe created based on Daniel’s interviews. Daniel describes how each piece of art reminds him of a season of his life, and reflects on the important roles the concepts of hope and duality have played in his life.
This interview was recorded on June 28th, 2023.
To see the art discussed in this graphic elicitation, please watch the interview on YouTube: https://youtu.be/WXw5MdCloqQ
Caitlin Burritt 00:00
Thank you for listening to the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. We are in the midst of a public health crisis. More than 32,000 people in Canada have died from fatal opioid overdoses since 2016 according to Health Canada. Previously, this podcast featured interviews with bereaved people in smaller towns and communities in BC and Alberta who have lost loved ones to fatal overdose. In this phase, we're sharing interviews with seven harm reduction workers, also known as peers, in different parts of BC.
Caitlin Burritt 00:27
The BC Centre for Disease Control Harm Reduction Services defines harm reduction as support services and strategies that aim to keep people safe and minimise death, disease and injury from high risk behaviour. Peers face a lot of challenges. This has been documented by many researchers including Zahra Mamdani and colleagues in BC. In their 2021 paper they outline significant challenges peers face including financial struggles, difficulty finding housing and stressors at work. We wanted to explore these themes with peers and find out more about their experiences and share this information with the public. So we conducted multiple remote interviews with harm reduction workers and invited them to talk about the stressors they face.
Caitlin Burritt 01:06
Please note this podcast contains information about substance use, overdose death, grief, trauma and stressors that peers face and this may be distressing to listen to. The podcast is part of a research project led by Aaron Goodman, PhD, faculty member at Kwantlen Polytechnic University in Surrey, BC, and conducted under the auspices of a grant known as the Chancellor's Chair Award. I'm Caitlin Burritt, a researcher with the project. A number of researchers including Giorgia Ricciardi and Chloe Burritt, who happens to be my sister, and a number of students have played key roles in the study and you'll hear many of their voices in this podcast.
Caitlin Burritt 1:46
This episode is a graphic elicitation, which is a research method in which art produced by researchers or participants, are used to invite participants to reflect on their lived experiences, beliefs, or behaviours. You’ll hear Caitlin Burritt and Chloe Burritt interview Daniel Snyder about three pieces of artwork Chloe created based on Daniel’s interviews. Daniel describes how each piece of art reminds him of a season of his life, and reflects on the important roles the concepts of hope and duality have played in his life.
Caitlin Burritt 2:12
So pretty much, just to start it off with, I'll mostly just do intro, outro. If I have any questions for you, I'll ask, but obviously you have a longer rapport with Chloe, and she's your artist as well. So, I'll mostly just let you guys have the conversation, and I'll just share my screen for the, the art.
Caitlin Burritt 2:33
Basically, to start us off with, for the graphic elicitation. I know it probably feels strange, there's a bit of bio-demographic, intersectional information at the beginning, when you've already done 10 interviews, previously. So, to start us off, what is your first and last name?
Daniel Synder 2:50
Daniel Snyder, S-N-Y-D-E-R. I always spell it, you know, because people want to put "I", S-N-I, it's like, "No, that's wrong!"
Caitlin Burritt 3:02
What are your pronouns?
Daniel Synder 3:04
I am he/him.
Caitlin Burritt 3:05
And what city or town are you based in?
Daniel Synder 3:08
Langley, BC.
Caitlin Burritt 3:10
Okay. And then what is your age?
Daniel Synder 3:13
Oh, well, today, I'm 43 but next week I'll be 44.
Chloe Burritt 3:19
Oh!
Caitlin Burritt 3:19
Oh --
Chloe Burritt 3:20
happy birthday!
Caitlin Burritt 3:21
happy almost birthday!
Daniel Synder 3:22
Yes, thanks. It's, I think -
Caitlin Burritt 3:25
and then -
Daniel Synder 3:25
I'm okay with it. I think I'm okay with it.
Caitlin Burritt 3:27
Yeah.
Chloe Burritt 3:28
I feel like it's a good, solid age.
Caitlin Burritt 3:31
Yeah!
Daniel Synder 3:31
Okay.
Caitlin Burritt 3:33
Yeah. And then, just for our last round of intersectional questions, if you're comfortable sharing, what is your gender, sex, race, ethnicity, class, sexuality, religion, disability --
Daniel Synder 3:48
hmm --
Caitlin Burritt 3:49
and physical appearance? And of course, you can skip any that you don't want to share.
Daniel Synder 3:54
Um, you could just put extreme privilege across all of that, and then just it would just cover all the boxes. But, okay, you might have to go through those one by one for me again.
Caitlin Burritt 4:05
Yeah, no problem. So it's, gender?
Daniel Synder 4:08
Male, yeah.
Caitlin Burritt 4:10
Yeah. Race?
Daniel Synder 4:11
Caucasian.
Caitlin Burritt 4:13
Ethnicity?
Daniel Synder 4:16
Same thing. Oh, I don't know.
Caitlin Burritt 4:17
Class?
Daniel Synder 4:20
Ah, yeah, good question, I guess. Depends who you ask, I would probably have to say middle class, I guess. I don't know, where do the class divides land these days?
Caitlin Burritt 4:30
Yeah, that's, that's a tough one with the inflation and stuff right now. So it's...
Daniel Synder 4:37
Yeah.
Caitlin Burritt 4:37
Yeah. And then, religion?
Daniel Synder 4:40
I'm gonna pass on that.
Caitlin Burritt 4:41
Okay, no problem. Disability?
Daniel Synder 4:45
Because it's just way too complicated.
Caitlin Burritt 4:47
Yeah.
Daniel Synder 4:50
No, no disabilities, no notable disabilities.
Caitlin Burritt 4:53
And then, physical appearance is the last one.
Daniel Synder 4:56
I dunno. What's the answer to that question?
Caitlin Burritt 4:59
Yeah. Good question. Yeah. It's up, up to you, um.
Daniel Synder 5:07
I wouldn't even know what to say.
Caitlin Burritt 5:09
Yeah.
Daniel Synder 5:10
Okay.
Chloe Burritt 5:10
You're Daniel.
Daniel Synder 5:12
Yeah.
Caitlin Burritt 5:12
Yeah. Daniel looks like Daniel got it. Yeah, so then, with that bit out of the way, would you like to start with this one, and then we can go down to the --
Daniel Synder 5:23
sure --
Caitlin Burritt 5:23
the bottom three --
Daniel Synder 5:24
like, I'm almost I'm not nervous, but I'm like, art is, I'm not an artist. I'm not creative. I mean, it's, well I shouldn't say I'm not creative. I'm not creative in this visual arts way. So who knows what you're gonna ask me? I don't know if I'll even have an answer.
Chloe Burritt 5:39
Honestly. Daniel, I also felt very nervous, because it was the flip side of it, where I was like, "What is Daniel gonna think about this?" And so we're on the same page. We're both nervous. We'll just see where the conversation goes.
Daniel Synder 5:53
I love art, so I love appreciating all different ways and styles. [Indistinguishable.] So okay, take it away.
Chloe Burritt 5:59
Yeah, sweet. Okay, so I'll just obviously, because they're more abstract, I feel like I gave you a little bit more of a difficult way to go with the questions, because some of the questions, I've kind of redone them a little bit to try and suit the abstract aspects of it.
Daniel Synder 6:17
Mhmm.
Chloe Burritt 6:18
But feel free to, like, bring up whatever, if it reminds you of anything, or we can go anywhere with the conversation, but I have a couple of questions that I'll just go off of.
Daniel Synder 6:27
Okay.
Chloe Burritt 6:27
So for this first one, what do you see in this illustration for you?
Daniel Synder 6:33
Oh, boy. Okay. No wrong answers, right?
Chloe Burritt 6:37
There really isn't.
Daniel Synder 6:38
So, I mean, I see someone who's lost and sad, and yet there's a, kind of like an access point or a window, you know, the eyes, like being the doorway to the soul kind of thing. So, it's like everything is, is kind of out of reach, let's say. But there's this lingering connection to the world, and that's through the eyes, yeah. And maybe also kind of the eyes, the connection point that you have, let me think here, it's like everything is kind of fading, but still trying to hold on to hope, kind of thing.
Chloe Burritt 7:20
Yeah. Do you think that it's representative of a specific experience, or does it make you think of more, maybe, like a general feeling or theme --
Daniel Synder 7:30
I --
Chloe Burritt 7:30
that you tie to it?
Daniel Synder 7:31
Yeah, I would associate it more with a, like a period of time.
Chloe Burritt 7:35
Yeah.
Daniel Synder 7:36
A season, yeah.
Chloe Burritt 7:37
Mhmm.
Daniel Synder 7:37
So not like an incident or or a moment, but more like that it encapsulates a season, meaning --
Chloe Burritt 7:44
yeah --
Daniel Synder 7:44
a number of years, perhaps, yeah.
Chloe Burritt 7:47
Right. Do you want to elaborate on that season at all? It's totally okay, if not.
Daniel Synder 7:52
Well, I mean, where would this be? When would this be? Hmm. I mean, I would kind of say that there was this period of...almost hopelessness, where I had experienced a lot of relapse and kind of attempts to stabilize in recovery or set my life trajectory, you know, kind of heading in the direction that I wanted it to go.
Chloe Burritt 8:18
Yeah.
Daniel Synder 8:18
And yet, then there was this season where it felt like that was never, it was unattainable. It was, you know, it was just this constant repetition of the same kind of thing over and over again, and kind of arriving at this point in time where, [I] didn't think that there was any way to break out of that and just that. So, that general sense of hopelessness that kind of comes attached to, to that time.
Chloe Burritt 8:46
Yeah. Do the colors signify anything for you?
Daniel Synder 8:49
Hmm. When you say that the red comes out a lot stronger, suddenly, it's interesting.
Chloe Burritt 8:56
Yeah.
Daniel Synder 8:56
Yeah, I mean, obviously, I mean, I'm trying to avoid having a cliched response, not necessarily, like, I would have to think about that more, but I mean they contribute to an overall feeling of sadness, I suppose. Yeah.
Chloe Burritt 9:11
Well, yeah, I remember when we had talked about, I think it was the first piece of art that I showed you, which was one of these, before any red was in it. It was interesting because you brought that up. Of it gave kind of a morose kind of sadness through the art. And it's interesting because I hadn't, I hadn't even meant for it to necessarily show that directly. But then, of course, looking at it now, that totally makes sense of those washed --
Daniel Synder 9:40
yeah --
Chloe Burritt 9:41
out sort of colors.
Daniel Synder 9:42
I like how it's not also really well defined. And so it, in a sense, kind of encapsulates a feeling of brokenness.
Chloe Burritt 9:53
It's interesting too, with the eyes as well, that you bring that up. Of those are the solid part of the piece.
Daniel Synder 10:00
Mhmm. Yeah--
Chloe Burritt 10:00
which, again --
Daniel Synder 10:02
most impotrant --
Chloe Burritt 10:03
yeah. And that wasn't an intentional, necessarily, thing that I did, but it must have kind of been a subconscious, sort of...
Daniel Synder 10:11
What, what medium is this? What did you use there? [...]
Chloe Burritt 10:14
It's pastel.
Daniel Synder 10:16
Oh, it's all pastel, okay.
Chloe Burritt 10:18
Yeah, because I definitely wanted to do blendability with your work.
Daniel Synder 10:22
Right.
Chloe Burritt 10:23
And so I, pastel really brings that out.
Daniel Synder 10:26
Yeah, very cool.
Chloe Burritt 10:27
And so --
Daniel Synder 10:27
okay --
Chloe Burritt 10:28
when you're talking about that it brings up a certain season for you. Do you feel like this shows the stressors? Does it relate to the stressors that you experienced in that time?
Daniel Synder 10:42
More to the emotions. I think, I mean, the stressors were probably, I mean, there's probably too many to list.
Chloe Burritt 10:50
Yeah.
Daniel Synder 10:50
It would be hard to capture that, I think. It was like kind of a point in time where everything was a stressor.
Chloe Burritt 10:57
Yeah.
Daniel Synder 10:58
So, you know when, when, when you're surrounded by that much chaos, much of which is your own responsibility to some, to a large extent, it's [...] it maybe is hard to define that clearly. So I, that the abstract nature kind of adds to that, right?
Chloe Burritt 11:19
Right. Does looking at it and thinking about the time period that it elicited, does it make you feel anything in your body? Like, do any senses connect to it?
Daniel Synder 11:31
Hmm. Well, I mean, hmm, that's an interesting question. Pay real close attention here. Not, not off the top of my head.
Chloe Burritt 11:42
Yeah.
Daniel Synder 11:43
And I think that I'm probably, that's yeah, maybe not.
Chloe Burritt 11:49
That's totally okay. So for this artwork, is there anything you want to add about your experience relating it to a certain time period, or any thoughts?
Daniel Synder 12:00
I'm kind of just curious if you give it a title, or if it has a title?
Chloe Burritt 12:04
I very rarely title work, so maybe --
Daniel Synder 12:11
yeah --
Chloe Burritt 12:11
you can title it if you'd like to. Maybe that's the collaborative aspect? Do you have a title that you could think of?
Daniel Synder 12:20
Let me just pick a, a year. When do I think this would have been close to? Hmm, I'm gonna say like, 2015. 2015, the year, 2015.
Chloe Burritt 12:35
Mhmm.
Daniel Synder 12:35
So I'm thinking like "the eyes in, eyes in 2015," or "my eyes in 2015." I don't know, something along those lines, you can, it doesn't flow right, that title, but.
Chloe Burritt 12:49
That's awesome. That's actually so cool to hear too, like, that's really cool. And I think that's a great title. It doesn't necessarily have to flow, you know?
Daniel Synder 12:57
Okay.
Chloe Burritt 12:57
If those were your eyes in 2015, then that's what --
Daniel Synder 12:59
sure --
Chloe Burritt 13:01
it was, right?
Daniel Synder 13:03
Mhmm.
Chloe Burritt 13:04
Well, shall we move to another one, or?
Daniel Synder 13:06
Yes, let's do it.
Chloe Burritt 13:09
Sweet. Thanks, Daniel, that was really cool to hear. It's really cool to hear, like, how you interpret it --
Daniel Synder 13:16
it's so weird--
Chloe Burritt 13:16
it's the most exciting part --
Daniel Synder 13:16
answering questions that don't have correct --
Chloe Burritt 13:17
yeah --
Daniel Synder 13:17
answers. Like, that's not the --
Chloe Burritt 13:17
yeah--
Daniel Synder 13:17
world I live in. Like --
Chloe Burritt 13:17
Right? But then it's like --
Daniel Synder 13:24
Show me some research!
Chloe Burritt 13:25
Yeah, where's the data? But it just from my end, your answers are so interesting, and it's so cool to hear how you're interpreting them.
Daniel Synder 13:36
Oh, cool. Yeah.
Chloe Burritt 13:36
So this is very exciting.
Caitlin Burritt 13:38
Just quickly, this is the top one of the bottom three.
Daniel Synder 13:43
Okay.
Caitlin Burritt 13:43
And yeah, just interestingly that the top two are kind of in that similar tone. There's a connection there.
Daniel Synder 13:51
That obviously --
Chloe Burritt 13:52
and I, I think --
Daniel Synder 13:53
resonated with me, yeah.
Chloe Burritt 13:55
Yeah. And also I think that, if I recall, this is one of the the earlier ones that I did. So I'm pretty sure this was one of the early renditions I did, and I think it was before we had our first meeting where we started talking about art.
Daniel Synder 14:12
Oh, okay.
Chloe Burritt 14:12
So that is interesting with the color choices that I went for and stuff before talking to you more.
Daniel Synder 14:19
Yeah.
Chloe Burritt 14:19
So, to then kick it off, what do you see in this illustration?
Daniel Synder 14:23
Interestingly, this, for whatever reason, reminds me more of my childhood, although I don't know why, I didn't wear glasses in my childhood. So it's kind of [a] strange thing to say, but again, I mean, it's the eyes I really like the abstract nature of it, and kind of the, the two eyes are quite different, and it's like, one, it kind of more seems like there's a lot of anger, almost, and the other, that would be the one on your right, and then the one on your left, I see that sadness again, kind of.
Daniel Synder 15:00
More like, like you're looking through the person, like they're not even present. They're not there, yeah. But that's interesting how, just because it's not made clear, like, normally when people draw eyes, I think they always try and make them look the same or pretty close to, right? So the fact that there's such uniqueness between the two is kind of neat for me. I dunno, it was maybe a dual-nature thing, or --
Chloe Burritt 15:29
yeah --
Daniel Synder 15:29
there's two sides to that person. Yeah.
Chloe Burritt 15:34
And do you think that those ideas of duality, which we had talked about in meetings, maybe in a bit of a different context. But does that link to your childhood? Do you feel like that's what's elicited, is separate emotions that link you to that?
Daniel Synder 15:51
Yeah, no, I'm not really sure what that link is, exactly. Maybe it's just like a memory of using pastels as a kid or something like that myself?
Chloe Burritt 16:01
Oh, totally!
Daniel Synder 16:02
But --
Chloe Burritt 16:02
yeah --
Daniel Synder 16:03
the the dual-nature thing is really kind of important to me, because I see that theme throughout the entirety of my life. Like, many things are true and not true at the same time, or there's always conflict --
Chloe Burritt 16:18
yeah --
Daniel Synder 16:19
and tension, and, and chaos and order, and yin and yang, and it's like, yeah, it's, it's an unsettledness, I think, that is partially you want to get away from being unsettled. You don't like it, but at the same time, there's an awareness that it's, like, unavoidable. And so that's kind of why I always find the concept of, you know, chaos and order, and kind of seeking balance is fascinating to me, because I think human nature would be like, "Oh, I just want my life all fully ordered, all the time."
Chloe Burritt 16:54
Yeah.
Daniel Synder 16:54
But you would find fairly quickly that that's not a fun way to live.
Chloe Burritt 17:02
No.
Daniel Synder 17:02
And then I just had [...] something go wrong, like two hours ago. And, I was like, "man! Why? Life can't be perfect? Oh, yeah, okay, I don't want life to be perfect either."
Chloe Burritt 17:12
Right.
Daniel Synder 17:13
That would be boring.
Chloe Burritt 17:15
Right. And I think what impacted me with talking to you about art is that that was really, as you said, that's kind of an integral part of you, and I think that later informed the art that we'll be talking about next. Because, like, I remember you had said to me that, say this first painting, the color scheme, which we just talked about, is more sadness and darker tones.
Daniel Synder 17:44
Yeah.
Chloe Burritt 17:44
And you said, basically, there's a duality to everything, right? So even in times of maybe extreme stressors, you find there was hope and there was good things happening as well. That's a simple --
Daniel Synder 17:44
yes --
Chloe Burritt 17:45
way of putting it. But do you wanna maybe--
Daniel Synder 17:50
No, I agree, and [...] --
Chloe Burritt 17:54
talk about that a bit more?
Daniel Synder 17:59
Well, I think that that's going to come out in the, the other piece that's pretty much my favorite.
Chloe Burritt 18:11
Yeah, maybe I'm pushing forward too quick, but yeah. We talked about the colors, a little bit of the previous one. But is there anything else you want to add about this piece?
Daniel Synder 18:22
Well, there's kind of like a storm cloud in there, to me. And so, you know, I think a lot of times during that season of my life, it was this internal, like everything was wrong inside of me. But, you know, maybe you could take, maybe I could step back and see the storm was around me as well, and, but I was just always so preoccupied, like, looking inside myself, I noticed my speaking is getting more abstract as we go, too.
Chloe Burritt 18:49
That's okay. That's, you're making total sense.
Daniel Synder 18:52
Okay.
Chloe Burritt 18:53
Can you think that, that what you were just talking about, where the storm being outside of you? Is that a retrospect look, as you thought of this and looked at this art?
Daniel Synder 19:04
Yes, well, I mean, this is kind of maybe a complicated thought. How can I articulate it? One of the things I've realized more in recent years is that I didn't have, like, the supports that could have been helpful, weren't there. A lot of the support that I was directed towards, you know, let's just for an example, say residential treatment. You know, where, people have addictions and you say "you should go to treatment." Well, a lot of that treatment was terrible. It wasn't helpful.
Chloe Burritt 19:35
Right.
Daniel Synder 19:36
And so, while I was, you know, hard on myself, and, you know, dealing with a lot of shame and discouragement and hopelessness, simultaneously, the system around me was not helping either. It was a problem --
Chloe Burritt 19:53
right --
Daniel Synder 19:53
too. I think there was a lot of um, there was no way to process that at the time, right? How do you know the system that's here to help you is also screwed up and broken, and they're not really helping you? How can you figure that out while you're in it? I --
Chloe Burritt 20:07
yeah--
Daniel Synder 20:07
bet it's almost impossible to come to terms with that till, till much later, because it's the only system you got, right? You don't have a choice.
Chloe Burritt 20:15
Yeah.
Daniel Synder 20:15
This is the help you're getting, even if it's crappy help, you're gonna [...] You're gonna take it and do what you --
Chloe Burritt 20:20
yeah --
Daniel Synder 20:20
can with it. And so um, it's kind of maybe now looking back, I'm just looking at it again and just seeing, like, almost a person desperate for help but lost in a broken system.
Chloe Burritt 20:35
Right? That's really interesting. Does that aspect of say, the very broken system, as someone who, you know, was inside of it, this might be not directly an art question, but does it feel at all, like, improved or resolved at all, in any way? Especially when you think back on it, of those times when --
Daniel Synder 20:58
well --
Chloe Burritt 20:58
you're struggling?
Daniel Synder 20:59
Certainly improved, I could say, yes. Fixed? No, yeah.
Chloe Burritt 21:05
Yeah.
Daniel Synder 21:05
But improvements have been made, and I'm confident of that, yeah. So.
Chloe Burritt 21:10
Does it feel like, maybe compared to when you were talking about that time or a season of your life, where it was feeling hopeless? Do you think that that informs maybe a dual feeling of hope for, maybe, people who are experiencing that now?
Daniel Synder 21:28
Oh, yeah. I think that that's central to my, like, everything about me is, is trying to offer people hope in the midst of situations that feel hopeless.
Chloe Burritt 21:38
Yeah.
Daniel Synder 21:39
And I kind of try to ground everything I say and do and, in that, that there is hope for people. Yeah, I'm thinking of a --
Chloe Burritt 21:48
yeah --
Daniel Synder 21:49
story looking at this just now, so I remember --
Chloe Burritt 21:52
oh, awesome --
Daniel Synder 21:52
I ran into this [a] number of times during my, you know, kind of years trying to resolve addiction. One part was that often you would end up in detox. And detox [...] has changed a lot. The way it's it's handled medically, since the Fentanyl crisis has kind of come into play. But, so my detox experiences were really all prior to fentanyl saturation, and --
Chloe Burritt 22:15
right --
Daniel Synder 22:17
there was this, I would get into this state. When you detox off opioids, for me, like, a lot of people describe it in many different ways, um, one way I often would talk about it is like having the worst sickness, flu of your life combined with, like a high sense of anxiety that you can't resolve. Also simultaneously with the knowledge that $20 makes all of that go away, and you're --
Chloe Burritt 22:42
right --
Daniel Synder 22:42
supposed to just get through it, get through it, right? It's a miserable experience.
Chloe Burritt 22:46
Yeah.
Daniel Synder 22:46
But I had very extreme, when I would go into withdrawal I would have very bad anxiety, and I wasn't typically prone to anxiety, but I would experience it in that time. And so, I remember many occasions asking doctors for just some anti-anxiety medication to help me get through that first week and always being denied because, "sorry, you have addiction issues, we can't give you a medicine that you could possibly get addicted to." And it's confounding to me, still to this day, that, that we have that punitive, kind of like, it was, it was almost like, "No, you, you have ,this problem is your fault and you should suffer through it." --
Chloe Burritt 23:33
yeah --
Daniel Synder 23:33
kind of attitude. And I also have, like, I know myself well, much better than I used to, but even then, I knew, knew myself well enough to know that that would have helped. And...
Chloe Burritt 23:44
Yeah.
Daniel Synder 23:44
I feel like I was, again, just trapped by a system that was like, they think they know better, what you need. And I mean, how do you? How would I ever go back in time? Or I can't go back in time and, and know what a different outcome might have been, had I had certain supports --
Chloe Burritt 24:01
yeah --
Daniel Synder 24:01
or certain people kind of, like, or even say, given this story I just told, had they been willing to give me a medication that could have helped me get through --
Chloe Burritt 24:11
yeah --
Daniel Synder 24:12
would it have changed things? I don't know, but.
Chloe Burritt 24:16
Right.
Daniel Synder 24:16
It's the punitive nature of that system is what we really need to do away with. And I just, again, see, see a person simultaneously trapped in themselves and trapped in the system.
Chloe Burritt 24:31
Yeah, it's actually so fantastic that you brought that story up, because I remember when I was listening to your interviews. One of the early interviews, you told that story, of being a poignant moment, of not being able to get, essentially, basic mental health care for anxiety. And that really, that started this painting, not painting --
Daniel Synder 24:58
oh, cool, wow --
Chloe Burritt 24:57
I keep calling it a painting, but this art piece. Yeah, because I remember,
Daniel Synder 24:59
yeah, that's really neat --
Chloe Burritt 25:00
like, listening to that, and it's something that, from an outside perspective, I wouldn't have thought of that, and then when you brought that up, of just as you said, such an extremely punitive way of thinking and going to like a healthcare practitioner. That is what got me started on doing the art. Because I thought, yeah, as you said, I think you said in the first, in one of the first interviews, you felt like they were making you suffer, or that you were made to suffer --
Daniel Synder 25:35
mhmm --
Chloe Burritt 25:36
unnecessarily.
Daniel Synder 25:38
Yeah, yeah.
Chloe Burritt 25:39
And that's what got me going on this art. And I think that really informed the colors that I used, as well. Because I think that that gives off that, that, maybe that feeling of hopelessness? Like, what are you supposed to do in that situation, right? That really impacted me, when you told that story. And that's what started me on the first, first renditions of your face and the color scheme that I used. So thank you for sharing that story, because, yeah, that really impacted me.
Daniel Synder 26:10
It's really, I've never really done anything quite like this, and so it's quite interesting how, like, this can become, a piece of art, can become meaningful by talking about it. You know?
Chloe Burritt 26:22
Yeah.
Daniel Synder 26:22
That's [a] very fascinating experience.
Chloe Burritt 26:25
Same for me. It's, it's really interesting. Again, I haven't done, like, anything like this either, where I usually do art for myself. And so it's, it's very meaningful and cool to hear what you get from it. And it, as you said, like it informs the meaning for me as well. And it's, it's so cool. So yeah, thank you for sharing everything that you're sharing.
Daniel Synder 26:46
Cool. Oh, yeah.
Chloe Burritt 26:49
Well, shall we go to the final, final one? Which I'm very excited to hear, hear your thoughts on.
Daniel Synder 26:55
Okay, yes, this is it.
Chloe Burritt 26:57
Awesome.
Daniel Synder 26:57
Yes.
Chloe Burritt 26:57
great. So --
Daniel Synder 26:58
well, I mean, I love that there's some other colors in here, that's great.
Chloe Burritt 27:03
Yeah, so what does this bring up for you, and what meaning does this elicit?
Daniel Synder 27:07
I still see that lost person who's in pain.
Chloe Burritt 27:10
Yeah.
Daniel Synder 27:11
But there's like, they're surrounded by hope and there's potential, and I think, so, in that sense, like I look at these, would we call them flowers? I guess they're flowers.
Chloe Burritt 27:25
Yeah, they're somewhere in there.
Daniel Synder 27:27
Yeah, to me, they kind of represent the people that never gave up on me and that wrapped themselves around me, and were the ones that like persisted and it, you know, there's three corners that are filled, and then there's, there's a fourth that's missing a flower. And that's kind of like --
Chloe Burritt 27:49
mhmm --
Daniel Synder 27:50
I don't have a specific person that I'm thinking of, but that's the people who just were stuck in their ideological way of, of thinking about drugs and addiction. And so they were actually the the unhelpful ones. I think, of a story of people being told to, like, "kick him out, don't. He shouldn't live with you," and then they refused to follow that advice, and they were like, "No, we're not. We're gonna, we're not giving up on on him like that." And so that --
Chloe Burritt 28:13
right --
Daniel Synder 28:17
that person, like is, is a flower, right? Or being told that "you should just end the relationship with this person," you know? And that person's like, "No, I'm not doing that. I'm staying, I'm staying involved and not giving up," whereas probably in that fourth corner, someone followed that advice. There's, there's people out there who just cut me off and, you know, "oh no, we got to do tough love, and can't have anything --"
Chloe Burritt 28:42
right --
Daniel Synder 28:43
"to do with this guy." And so they're absent. And they're absent because they're unhelpful, even though, in their world, they think they were helping, and there was a lot of help that was unhelpful.
Chloe Burritt 28:56
Right.
Daniel Synder 28:57
And yet, there was a few, there was a few that were persistently kind and compassionate and hopeful for me, so. And I think it takes a lot more commitment and love to, to do that for a person who's not giving you any sign that they're coming out of this thing.
Chloe Burritt 29:21
Right.
Daniel Synder 29:22
You know, there were many moments in time where it was like, "well, maybe we should give up on Daniel?" Like, you know, I'm sure those feelings were --
Chloe Burritt 29:29
right --
Daniel Synder 29:30
were very real for people, and yet they chose not to, right? They chose to stay the course. Worth it!
Chloe Burritt 29:37
Are there specific people that um, do you think of family members, or is it good friends?
Daniel Synder 29:43
Yeah, I mean, there, there really is a lot of people, but there's probably a few --
Chloe Burritt 29:48
yeah --
Daniel Synder 29:48
core people of, certainly my mom, my, my wife, my, and a friend. There was a few that stuck by my side. Um, oh --
Chloe Burritt 29:56
yeah -
Daniel Synder 29:56
actually, I have a good story that my wife was like "I'm not giving up on him because I know he's gonna get through this and if --
Chloe Burritt 30:09
Yeah.
Daniel Synder 30:10
I give up, then some other woman's gonna reap all the rewards. I'm not having that. But uh, yeah.
Chloe Burritt 30:18
She was in the trenches for you. She knew, that's so funny.
Daniel Synder 30:23
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so --
Chloe Burritt 30:25
and --
Daniel Synder 30:26
yeah. It's [a] really cool picture, piece of art.
Chloe Burritt 30:29
So then do those, the brightness of colours, are those what make you think of hopefulness and, and kindness, and you know, the antithesis of the hopelessness of the darker colours and things like that?
Daniel Synder 30:44
Oh, for sure. And I mean having them kind of wrapping around the sadness --
Chloe Burritt 30:55
yeah --
Daniel Synder 30:58
and like, you know, so, what's the word there? Um. You know, we can carry you. We have the strength.
Chloe Burritt 31:04
Yeah.
Daniel Synder 31:05
You don't always need to have it and that sort of thing. Yeah, I think people, like, in addiction often feel like they got to figure it out on their own, and people around them that are helping them often feel confused and, and helpless themselves, like they --
Chloe Burritt 31:17
right --
Daniel Synder 31:18
don't know how to help. And somehow, I think we have to, like encourage people to realise you, first of all, you're not alone, and the people that want to help you, just do your best. That's all you can do.
Chloe Burritt 31:30
Right.
Daniel Synder 31:31
Just don't give up on that person, right? And so --
Chloe Burritt 31:33
yeah --
Daniel Synder 31:34
but you know, societally we, we are, we don't know how to handle these situations, right? Like I keep hearing this analogy, if your child is in an accident, well everyone in the neighbourhood, all your close family and friends, they come around, they provide care and comfort, or they, they want to cook meals for you and help, kind of take, take on the burden a little bit. But if --
Chloe Burritt 31:57
yeah --
Daniel Synder 31:58
your child has an addiction, you know, no one comes around. No one says anything, no one, no one knows how to, that's that's generally silence, right? Met with silence.
Chloe Burritt 32:07
Yeah.
Daniel Synder 32:08
It's an unfortunate reality that we've created a society that is so confused about drugs and people who use drugs --
Chloe Burritt 32:15
right --
Daniel Synder 32:16
like, so confused that people who drink alcohol don't think of themselves as drug users. That's how confused --
Chloe Burritt 32:22
right--
Daniel Synder 32:23
we are as a society, that we've set up this arbitrary hierarchy and created this unfortunate stigma, well, because of a lot of unfortunate reasons which we don't have time to get into, but we'll undo it --
Chloe Burritt 32:37
but it--
Daniel Synder 32:38
eventually. It's going to take a generation or two.
Chloe Burritt 32:41
And that's the hope in it, right? Like...
Daniel Synder 32:43
Yeah.
Chloe Burritt 32:44
But it does make you think of even the theme of stigma, and where that stigma goes, and how pervasive it is, and how, as you said, that stigma is not the same for certain like health issues or, yeah, as you said, drinking. There is not that same level that I think still, when you were talking about earlier, in the previous art, of feeling kind of enshrouded by a system that tends to be working against you. It's this--
Daniel Synder 33:10
yeah --
Chloe Burritt 33:11
it's the same thing with the stigma of it, right?
Daniel Synder 3:12
You know that, it's [indistinguishable] kind of curious, because maybe an alternative interpretation of this art would be, like --
Chloe Burritt 33:21
yeah--
Daniel Synder 33:22
completely different from the first things I said, would be more about --
Chloe Burritt 33:27
right--
Daniel Synder 33:28
the way I tried to hide from being stigmatised, and --
Chloe Burritt 33:36
right --
Daniel Synder 33:37
so it's like there's this person in pain, but they put these bright, happy flowers, like...
Chloe Burritt 33:43
Right!
Daniel Synder 33:44
They put on a performance. They put on an act. That, that was the way I lived [...] through addiction, was because I never, because of the access to resources and privileges, like I've shared, like I didn't fall into becoming the stereotypical drug addict look and whatnot --
Chloe Burritt 34:00
right --
Daniel Synder 34:01
and so I was always putting on a mask and a smiley outer exterior to try and hide that.
Chloe Burritt 34:09
Well, because you had said as well, if I recall, you, you always went to work, right? And always had a full time job and --
Daniel Synder 34:17
yeah --
Chloe Burritt 34:17
showed up to your job, all of that stuff. People, you know, that's keeping a way of life, right? Where people might not necessarily know.
Daniel Synder 34:27
It's very true. It's kind of a double edged sword, like, because I had that. ability to maintain functioning, it was like, I wonder if in some sense that prolonged things, because it --
Chloe Burritt 34:38
right --
Daniel Synder 34:39
didn't disintegrate into total chaos. I was able to kind of keep --
Chloe Burritt 34:42
right --
Daniel Synder 34:43
things together on the fringes, even though I was internally --
Chloe Burritt 34:46
yeah --
Daniel Synder 34:47
in chaos.
Chloe Burritt 34:48
Right.
Daniel Synder 34:48
So, um. But, you know, simultaneously, those privileges were part of the resources that helped me get out of it, right?
Chloe Burritt 34:58
Right.
Daniel Synder 34:59
I remember a point in time when I looked around myself in a treatment centre knowing that I was going to leave soon, go back home to my house, where my car is parked --
Chloe Burritt 35:08
right --
Daniel Synder 35:09
where my job is waiting for me. And...
Chloe Burritt 35:12
Yeah.
Daniel Synder 35:12
Then I looked around me at the other people in the treatment centre who were like, "I don't even, I don't know where I'm going to live after this. I don't have a job. No, none of my family" --
Chloe Burritt 35:19
right --
Daniel Synder 35:20
"talks to me." And then I'm just becoming aware of, like, how... The step up I have, the, the opportunities that were there for me to succeed that so many people do not have, right?
Chloe Burritt 35:33
Right. Do you think that informed your hopefulness for, say, the future, or motivating you at all?
Daniel Synder 35:45
Yeah, I've always wondered where, like, this hope that I have comes from, because it's not, it feels like it's beyond me in some respects.
Chloe Burritt 35:55
Right.
Daniel Synder 35:56
And so, yeah, I don't know, good question.
Chloe Burritt 36:01
It is really interesting though, because I think when we first had a meeting together, it was very apparent that you were very, it was about hope. And there's there's a duality to everything, and part of that is positive, right? And I think that that maybe challenged the way that I started the art, where I kind of immediately went to more of a darker aspect to it. And I think the interesting thing about this art piece is that, really, through our discussion, you really challenged that with me, and it made me think, "oh, like, how am I being informed by maybe, ways that addiction is shown?" Or --
Daniel Synder 36:39
right --
Chloe Burritt 36:40
portrayed in an overall way, right? And how, did I just fall into that when I was starting it?
Daniel Synder 36:46
Interesting.
Chloe Burritt 36:47
And then when you were talking to me, it was like, it was about hope and how that informs the work you do now, and activism and...
Daniel Synder 36:56
Yeah.
Chloe Burritt 36:57
But how it's always there. Yeah.
Daniel Synder 36:59
That's really great. Um, I'm glad that you were. That that thought came to you. I was in a meeting for a video project I'm a part of, and one of the videographers who's not well acquainted with this type of work, obviously, probably very skilled at filming. But --
Chloe Burritt 37:17
right --
Daniel Synder 37:18
he had said he was going to, he was sourcing stock footage of people using drugs and drug-addict-looking people. And I'm like, "Oh, we're not using any of that, stop doing that."
Chloe Burritt 37:32
Yeah.
Daniel Synder 37:32
I'm like, "we're not, we're not. We're not feeding stereotypes here, man, like, no way."
Chloe Burritt 37:36
Yeah. Right!
Daniel Synder 37:38
"So, you can go ahead and delete all that footage, buddy."
Chloe Burritt 37:42
Right!
Daniel Synder 37:42
No, we need --
Chloe Burritt 37:43
cause it's like --
Daniel Synder 37:43
to change the the narrative on that for sure. Yeah.
Chloe Burritt 37:47
Exactly. And I think that it's, it's really easy to fall, even if you have good intentions, like, from an outside perspective, like, fall into that and --
Daniel Synder 37:58
yeah, absolutely!
Chloe Burritt 37:59
Go right into that stigma, right?
Daniel Synder 38:01
Yeah.
Chloe Burritt 38:02
That, yeah, that's really interesting.
Daniel Synder 38:05
It's, it's embedded in our culture. It will take --
Chloe Burritt 38:08
yeah --
Daniel Synder 38:08
a very, very long time to, you know, I mean, I just pull[ed] up an article in the Langley Advance the other day, a coroner's report, some, I don't know what it was about, but the picture they accompany it with is a needle in, you know, on the ground, like?
Chloe Burritt 38:23
Right.
Daniel Synder 38:23
What's the point? What's the purpose?
Chloe Burritt 38:24
Right.
Daniel Synder 38:25
I mean, not only that, I don't know. No one's paying any attention to the fact that injection drug use is way down.
Chloe Burritt 38:30
Right.
Daniel Synder 38:31
Somehow, that's kind of the image that represents drug use in our society.
Chloe Burritt 38:35
Right.
Daniel Synder 38:36
Almost no one that uses drugs injects. It's weird that --
Chloe Burritt 38:39
right --
Daniel Synder 38:39
that's like the stereotypical [indistinguishable] thing.
Chloe Burritt 38:42
Right. And it just keeps feeding the same loop, right?
Daniel Synder 38:46
Yeah.
Chloe Burritt 38:47
Interesting. Well, we're coming up to six o'clock. Yeah. So do you have any final thoughts that you want to add to talking about the art or anything? Or do you feel like we've covered a good, a good amount?
Daniel Synder 39:00
I'm surprised that we got that much out of me, so...
Chloe Burritt 39:03
Yeah, I know, I know what you mean.
Daniel Synder 39:05
That's really great. Yeah, no, I'm, I'm --
Chloe Burritt 39:07
It was so cool. Caitlin, do you want to step in it all?
Caitlin Burritt 39:10
Yeah, and so also, just quickly for two people who were nervous about talking about art, you did a great job, both of you. It was really interesting, just from a slightly outside source. It was really cool to hear all, all about it and the concepts and stuff. But thank you for your time this evening.
Daniel Synder 39:31
Okay.
Chloe Burritt 39:31
Yeah. Thank you so much, Daniel.
Caitlin Burritt 39:33
That brings us to the end of this episode of the That brings us to the end of this episode of the Unsilencing Stories podcast. To listen to more interviews in the series, please go to www.unsilencingstories.com. And if you'd like to share your thoughts on the episode, message us at unsilencingstories@gmail.com Thank you for listening.