Ryan Nielsen: Graphic Elicitation Interview

This episode is a graphic elicitation, which is a research method in which art produced by researchers or participants, are used to invite participants to reflect on their lived experiences, beliefs, or behaviours. You’ll hear Giorgia Ricciardi interview Ryan Nielsen about two pieces of art produced by the researcher, Thomas Chanyungco, and one piece of art created by Ryan, to represent concepts inspired by Ryan ’s story. Ryan describes what the art represents to him and how the images reflect specific experiences in his life.

This interview was recorded on July 20th, 2023.

To see the art discussed in this graphic elicitation, please watch the interview on YouTube: //youtu.be/GGuk_FY4rg4

Transcript

Caitlin Burritt  00:00 

Thank you for listening to the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. We are in the midst of a public health crisis. More than 32,000 people in Canada have died from fatal opioid overdoses since 2016 according to Health Canada. Previously, this podcast featured interviews with bereaved people in smaller towns and communities in BC and Alberta who have lost loved ones to fatal overdose. In this phase, we're sharing interviews with seven harm reduction workers, also known as peers, in different parts of BC.  

Caitlin Burritt  00:27 

The BC Centre for Disease Control Harm Reduction Services defines harm reduction as support services and strategies that aim to keep people safe and minimise death, disease and injury from high risk behaviour. Peers face a lot of challenges. This has been documented by many researchers including Zahra Mamdani and colleagues in BC. In their 2021 paper they outline significant challenges peers face including financial struggles, difficulty finding housing and stressors at work. We wanted to explore these themes with peers and find out more about their experiences and share this information with the public. So we conducted multiple remote interviews with harm reduction workers and invited them to talk about the stressors they face.  

Caitlin Burritt  01:06 

Please note this podcast contains information about substance use, overdose death, grief, trauma and stressors that peers face and this may be distressing to listen to. The podcast is part of a research project led by Aaron Goodman, PhD, faculty member at Kwantlen Polytechnic University in Surrey, BC, and conducted under the auspices of a grant known as the Chancellor's Chair Award. I'm Caitlin Burritt, a researcher with the project. A number of researchers including Giorgia Ricciardi and Chloe Burritt, who happens to be my sister, and a number of students have played key roles in the study and you'll hear many of their voices in this podcast. 

Caitlin Burritt  01:46  

This episode is a graphic elicitation, which is a research method in which art produced by researchers or participants, are used to invite participants to reflect on their lived experiences, beliefs, or behaviours. You’ll hear Giorgia Ricciardi interview Ryan Nielsen about two pieces of art produced by the researcher, Thomas Chanyungco, and one piece of art created by Ryan, to represent concepts inspired by Ryan ’s story. Ryan describes what the art represents to him and how the images reflect specific experiences in his life. 

Ryan Nielsen  2:17  

My name is Ryan Nielson, I'm 29 years old. Kind of live right now the unceded territory of Semiahoo First Nations or, like, known as White Rock. I'm like, so First Nations, like on my mom's side, and Métis, on my dad's side. What was the question sorry?

Giorgia Ricciardi 02:40

Your pronouns?

Ryan Nielsen 02:42

Oh, pronouns, sorry, he and him. Yes.

Giorgia Ricciardi 02:4

Thank you for sharing. So, I don't know if this is your first time seeing it? Is it your first time seeing the art?

Ryan Nielsen 02:53

Um, no. I think actually drew this one. So, yes. I know this one.

Giorgia Ricciardi 02:57

Oh cool!

Ryan Nielsen 02:59

Yes.

Giorgia Ricciardi 02:59

Okay. All right, so let's jump in. What do you see in this illustration?

Ryan Nielsen 03:05

Um, in this illustration, I kind of see, like, I guess a figure of a person and kinda like, the more they're inside, so kind of, like the internal side of a human being and the struggles, I guess. And for me, it's kind of coming from like, a lived experience. And this art is kind of, kind of showing, I guess, the internal battles that goes on with substance use and addiction, or any kind of mental illness. Where it's like, I guess, like, it's almost like, I call it like, an inner demon, a little bit. It's almost like, you have, like, this other part of you. And it's always there. And it's always, kind of does what like a, I guess, like, figuratively, like a demon does. It just kind of like, takes away the goodness and um, does more harm in your life thank like, good, and so it's, I, it gets into, like, from my own experience, and like with this art, is it's like a almost like a trap, it feels like you're like, in the cycle or, like, the demon becomes part of you and like, almost getting into this, like, inter-battle with it, like, is this who I am now?

Ryan Nielsen 04:19

And you start to question your, who you are, and your entire life existence because of this, this new thing that's kind of overshadows you everyday and it's always with you. And just kind of like the figure with the skeleton, it just kind of, kind of
like pulling itself apart. Because it's like, you know, people see the image that you present to the world and stuff, right? And expectations that we have and to survive in society. But internally, it's like, you just want to call yourself out because it's a constant struggle, I guess, with not giving in completely to that side. And the battle of good and bad, I guess, between the addiction and the person that they still are, I guess, yeah.

Giorgia Ricciardi 05:07

Yeah. This is a really poignant representation of that.

Ryan Nielsen 05:11

Thank you.

Giorgia Ricciardi 05:13
So does this illustration represent like a specific moment that you experienced in your work as a peer?

Ryan Nielsen 05:20

Um, yeah, I guess, like.... It's how I feel, like, towards when I'm doing outreach and stuff with the harm reduction practices, out in the field is, I still see this, like, I guess, everywhere I go. And yeah, so it's really hard and just kind of like imaging that where we're trying to, like, reach these people. And it's hard with like I said, the inner demon, where sometimes uh, it's different stages. And they're like progressive sometimes, right? And just try and be with them there. But it's hard when you see, like, all the, um... Like, the demons, almost like the self, the self talk and stuff right? It's like the all the negative self talk, all the negative beliefs that are formed. And yeah, just trying to, like, see those fears is really hard, right? So you're just trying to, like, represent, like, the damage that kind of shows like what they're going through, I guess, right?

Giorgia Ricciardi 06:17
Yeah, no, absolutely. And you think you did a really great job. This really brings out a lot of feelings in you. Like, even as somebody who like hasn't had the same lived experience as you.

Ryan Nielsen 06:25

Thank you.

Giorgia Ricciardi 06:27

Could you talk a little bit more about your experience in that moment?

Ryan Nielsen 06:31

Like in the moment with writing this or like when I was there myself, kinda sorry?

Giorgia Ricciardi 06:37

Maybe both? I'd love to hear both.

Ryan Nielsen 06:40

Okay. Um, so I think, um... I guess I'll start like with my own experience, because it kind of ties in to this. Because like, when I guess when I was going through this it's like, it's hard, ah just give me a sec [indiscernible]. I think there's, like, different life events or experiences and stuff with certain people, right? And so kind of like, I would say it's [a] pretty normal life, right? Like going to school, doing all these things and, and like, not kind of seeing the addiction get to there, but like really loving the person who I was. Developing that thing that was, like, youth and stuff. And then kind of like, when I got to the, my own addiction and stuff, it's like um, when I was kind of feeling [in] this moment, image towards myself is, it's like your shell, like, I, that's how I felt myself, I felt like I was a shell of myself.

Ryan Nielsen 07:44

And it was like, it was just like, kind of hell, but like, you're almost like, on
autopilot, I guess, just trying to go through life. But like, it's constant like, this says like this... the struggle, but like where you really want to, like tear yourself out, especially I think with the withdrawals and what I was kind of trying to do with this image is like, because like, I would say, that's probably the most feeling I've got from peers, and from my own self is like, it feels like your, your bones are just like, on fire, and you kind of want to rip them off. So it's kind of like this thing where you're like, you're trying to claw yourself, but you're so lost. And it's almost feels like this rabbit hole. Right, the deeper you go down this rabbit hole, the, the harder it is to get out, the more you lose yourself in the process, too right? And it's almost like... it kind of reminds me of a disease almost right, where it's like, the more the disease progresses, the more like, you know, unhealthy the person becomes or like closer to, I guess, death. And like, I can say that for certain because like, I know, quite a lot of people, I would say like, most people I know, are not here anymore because of that stuff, right? And this whole struggle and how easy it is to happen. And like, just try[ing] and get out of it too. It's like, where do you go? How do you get out of this cycle? Especially when the disease progresses is, that affects your, your mind really bad, right? Like, your thinking and everything kind of changes, right? And, and like, you start to believe a lot of the self talk. The self talk is really, you know, powerful. And especially with this, like, kind of inner demon you start to form, you kind of use on that for survival with either surviving the streets or just like getting your fix for the day. You kind of rely on that inner demon to do that, or when things get tough, when you're doing things that are not who you are, or value. It has a toll on someone, right?

Ryan Nielsen 09:33

It's like, if you're not living up to your personal values, or something else, and you're doing something that you know is wrong, or really against your own morals, and you're doing that everyday just to, and you're not even trying to, like, you know, feel good, you're just trying to do that for survival. You kind of lose hope and any kind of light for any kind of future, right? And everyday, it's just kind of given up. And so for myself, that was like, where I was at, like, I got to self harm myself really bad because I was like, "oh, you know, I don't want to keep on doing this." And the times that I did try to leave my addiction, you know, did not end, or did not work out really well. And I think ended up with using more, or whatever it was, and I was like "this is my life now, right? Like this is set in stone, I'm not going to ever not stop using this stuff. I'm never going to do these things." And then just
also seeing the pain that you're causing other people. It's not like you're not oblivious to things, right? You're still there. But like I said, it's like a shell. It's almost like sometimes you're watching this demon take over your life for you. And you're just in the backseat, you don't have much say in it, actually, right? 

Ryan Nielsen 10:48

And so you're doing that. And kind of like when I got myself out of it. It was, I would say it's like a miracle and like, did not see that happening the way did. But
it's kind of nice to, you know... It's hard saying now but like it was transform-- yeah, it transformed my life, right? Like when I did get off of it and get clean and sober, and I was able to see, like, life in a different world. But then when I became an outreach worker to try to help people who were in the same position I was, like, years before. It's almost hard to see that again, right? You're like, "whoa," and it's hard. I think sometimes with a harm reduction person it's like... you're not, it's hard... you can't like get into this headspace where you're trying to save everybody, right? Like, "oh, I want to save this person or I want to do it." But like, my own experience or stuff, it's, it all comes from within, right? And that that self-choice, which like I said, it's hard with that demon and how clogged it gets. But you can try to influence people, but, end of the day, it has to come from their own choices. So it's like, walking alongside people and just being empathetic and try to get them to realize their own, you know, choices from within, because I think that's kind of what I do. But it's hard to still see it, right?

Ryan Nielsen 12:03

Like, especially being there myself. I'm like "wow," like, or and when people do pass away. It's like, "okay, like this person was in the same position I was but for whatever reason they died and I didn't," right? It's like, "oh, well, like, what is that like a Russian Roulette thing?" So, with this drawing is just trying to... Yeah, do that, because I see this every day. Like I said, it's still, when I do my outreach workers
and stuff. I work with a lot of people that are just like that, and they don't like who they are. And it's like, they feel trapped. Like, I think that's the biggest one that it's almost like a jail, right? It's a handcuff, it's like. You know, can't do anything your whole day revolves around that, right? You know, simple things that I think people take for granted becomes, like, right? Yeah.

Giorgia Ricciardi 12:49

Yeah, like you're in full-on survival mode. Wow. And what about your experience in creating this piece?

Ryan Nielsen 13:04

Um, it was like, it's kind of emotional, I guess, like, because it's like... I wouldn't say it's like an art where you're just like, "I'm just gonna draw something like happy and stuff." Like, I wanted to do something that was how I was feeling. And especially at the time, I guess, of this art, it was, I don't know, just like a lot of, I was doing a lot more hours and had a lot more responsibility at work. And I guess, like, it was, this was appeal-- or, yeah-- appealing to me more, like I was like, "okay, I'm only seeing this right now." And I was kind of in that headspace where I just needed to
almost, like, vent it out. And in doing this art piece, it was like a sense of relief in a way, where I was able to get all these emotions I was having a hard time processing, and put it on paper. And as silly as that sounds, it was like, felt like a huge weight was lifted off my shoulders. Just from doing something like this.

Giorgia Ricciardi 14:05

Yeah, I don't think that sounds silly at all. I think it's a lot, you know, like, people might need to talk about their feelings out loud and that helps them kind of release that weight. Or people will journal and that helps release the weight. I think that creating art is a very similar, like, cathartic experience. I --yeah, absolutely.

Ryan Nielsen 14:23

Yeah.

Giorgia Ricciardi 14:25

So before, I kind of go on with the questions I have in front of me here, I've been looking at this piece quite intently as you're, as you're sharing with me about it. And I'm noticing that there's a lot of layers to it. Like, I'm seeing in the background, kind of in the middle, behind the big central demon, there's a face. Can you tell me a bit more about the layers that you've created here in this piece?

Ryan Nielsen 14:23

Um, yeah, I -- sorry, I'm just trying to...

Giorgia Ricciardi 15:02

Do you need me to zoom in anywhere, at all?

Ryan Nielsen 15:04

I got it. Actually. Sorry. I was just like, "how do I do this?" But yeah, cause I haven't seen this one a few months. But yeah, um, yeah. So just like, yeah, the layers are actually supposed to be [a] heart in the background, it's kind of hard to see. But the demon's supposed to also be like a kind of a human heart in a way, right? It's like represents the body, almost. And then the person, right, is like the inner shell. Well, both of them [indiscernable] inner shell but I guess, like, one's the mind, one's the body, a little bit, and then with a demon in the top of it, so. Um. Yeah, just I guess, like, clouds are in the top to, tried to do that layer. And then, like I said, yeah, just a skeleton, to show the selves and then also, I threw in some other faces to kind of represent that it's not just one person going through it, where it's, I guess like, our current crisis that we're experiencing. And yeah, I just really wanted to do the layers to, kind of like, show that there's multiple layers to this issue and to this person, right?

Giorgia Ricciardi 16:10

Yeah. I think it's phenomenal.

Ryan Nielsen 16:13

Thank you.

Giorgia Ricciardi  16:15

So, when you look at this piece, do you hear anything?

Ryan Nielsen 16:21

Um...It's like... kinda yeah, I guess, just... I don't know. I guess like, the struggle for me just... yeah.

Giorgia Ricciardi  16:51

Yeah.

Ryan Nielsen 16:52

It's hard to describe, actually, sorry.

Giorgia Ricciardi 16:54

No, fair enough. That's totally okay. How do you feel in your body?

Ryan Nielsen 17:00

Um... I guess I feel... hmm. I think it's hard to I'm trying to find out like what sad feeling I'm trying to describe, but like, it's like, weird, I also feel hopeful at the same time. So it's like hopeful, but also like, sad. So like, like, tragic, I guess I would say, kind of feel tragedy a little bit with it. So like, I feel tragedy, but also feel like there's I don't know, some hope in it as well, where it's...Um, the like, the battle is not ever done, and I gotta keep on going, right? But and just kind of like how it can show towards more people, I think is the other one, is uh. So yes, it's very sad in
the images and stuff. But if it can reach out to more people and make people feel more connected and like, you know, united, then it's kind of hopeful in that aspect. Yeah.

Giorgia Ricciardi 18:13

Yeah. Like they're not alone in those feelings.

Ryan Nielsen 18:17

Yeah.

Giorgia Ricciardi 18:21

Do you remember any smells or tastes that might have come back to you when you were creating this piece?

Ryan Nielsen 18:27

Any, sorry, what?

Giorgia Ricciardi 18:29

Any, any smells or any tastes that might have come to you?

Ryan Nielsen 18:34

Umm hmm. I, yeah, it is kind of hard to describe. But like, when I was like in this, like, during that time in my life, just like, a lot in the streets and stuff, and it's weird, but just like, there's a certain smell you get and stuff from being out there and stuff. And I kind of got that a little bit here, when I was doing this I was like "oh, yeah." Because it was like, yes, like, that's kind of, it's like weird, right? It's like, everything smells and tastes differently back then. I don't know how to describe that. But it does. And, like, how do I describe that? Um, I don't know, like, kind of like, I don't know, I guess like a musty dark, rainy smell.

Giorgia Ricciardi 19:20

Okay.

Ryan Nielsen 19:21

Like when it rains out in the city kind of thing.

Giorgia Ricciardi  19:24

Yeah, how interesting.

Ryan Nielsen 19:24

Yeah.

Giorgia Ricciardi  19:25

Yeah, how interesting. Okay. How... How did you manage... How did you manage with this experience? And with the, with the stressor? Like when you were creating this? You said it was it was cathartic. But was there any part of you that started, like --was it difficult for you to create this or?

Ryan Nielsen 19:48

Oh yeah.

Giorgia Ricciardi  19:49

Yeah?

Ryan Nielsen 19:50

Yes, it's still difficult to do. Like I'm-- to be honest, like, I'm still trying to figure this out myself, personally, but like um... Because like, I do, like, a lot of outreach. Quite a lot. Like I think I was, like, I do 60 hours in a week, sometimes, right? Like 40 hours at one job and another one, plus school. So it's always just trying to, you know, work out there. But that's a lot of exposure to what's going on, right? And you gotta kind of see it firsthand. And we're like, you know, your day is to watch someone overdose, bring them back, and see them go through all the motions and all those things. So it's, kind of like, starts to desensitize you a little bit. But I don't know if it actually desensitizes me. That's what I try to, like, think about sometimes because like, like, it seems to bother people really bad, right? Like, or something that I'll be like, "oh, you know, like, that's no big deal." Right? Like, that's, that's part of it, like, that's really normal, will, like really upset people, right? They'll be like, almost traumatic, traumatic, about it, right? They'll be like, really shaken up. And for me, it's like, no, right? Like, okay, I'll get right back on to the next person or help out.

Ryan Nielsen 21:06

But um, but it does affect me, like, I know, it does like, it-- but it's weird. It's
like when I start to like, get into something like too deep or something I don't want to think about I just somehow like, switch to like, a distraction or something. Like, I dunno, seems to be like my thing is like, I don't know, it sounds really weird, but like I work more and stuff and, like, get on the next task, but then I don't know, you go home. But it does. Like I do get upset sometimes, right? And there are, like... Yeah, I don't know. It's like, sometimes it'll just hit me out of nowhere, and then it's like, body kicks in [indiscernible]. And then I stop right, get emotional or whatever.
So probably got some stuff I gotta still work through myself, realistically, if that's what's happening, but yeah, I don't know. Just, so I guess I felt that with the art piece, right? I'm like, yeah, it was hard doing it, right? Like it was. But at the same time, it was like, just another, you know, normal thing, right? It was like, um... Yeah, so it's like a numb-- but it's not numb, though. Like a-- or maybe a little bit? I don't know. This is really hard to explain. But yeah.

Giorgia Ricciardi 22:32

Yeah, fair enough. Maybe, maybe a bit avoidant.

Ryan Nielsen 22:36

Yeah. Avoidant, yeah. I guess so, yeah. Yeah, I would say that. Yeah. Avoidant, yeah.

Giorgia Ricciardi  22:47

On the topic of this piece in particular, is there anything else that you'd like to add? Have I missed anything at all?

Ryan Nielsen 22:53

Um I think that's... I'm trying to think. No, I think that's it, I think there's one layer to it and I'm not sure if it's a layer, but just like a bunch of the medications and stuff coming off. But that's, uh, yeah, just kind of showing the trap cycle. But that's it really, that's the whole point of this one, was just to kind of show the inner struggle, of um... Inner struggle and battle the person goes on with themselves when they're overcoming this addiction and stuff. And kind of what I experienced myself and feeling trapped. But also that there is help in there. So.

Giorgia Ricciardi 23: 42

Yeah. I love it. This is an incredible piece. Thank you for,  thank you for sharing about it with us. So the next two are going to be Thomas's pieces. I think, to my knowledge, correct me if I'm wrong.

Ryan Nielsen 23:57

Oh, yeah, I haven't seen this one.

Giorgia Ricciardi 23:59

Okay, great. Okay, so what do you see?

Ryan Nielsen 24:03

Um, I see. I see a person trapped in a bottle, right? And first thing I think of is, like, an alcohol bottle almost, right? And so the person's stuck in there and you know, their mouth's open and their hands are wide, like, kind of like, almost similar to the last one where they're, they're stuck in the bottle. But from what I see it's like almost drinking, right? They're stuck in this cycle of drinking, but they can't get out of it. So. And like, it's, they want to, but-- ooh, actually, I see that now too, where there's a cap. So all their sounds are muted, I'd say, so, doesn't matter how long that they yell or make noise, nobody can hear them. And yeah, I really like this one.

Giorgia Ricciardi 24:55

It's a great observation. Now does this represent a specific moment that you experienced in your work as a peer?

Ryan Nielsen 25:05
Um, yes, actually. Yeah, I would say I think there's a couple times, um... I guess sometimes, yeah. I guess sometimes it's like, when it's like politics and stuff. So as a peer, right, like wanting to help people but certain, whatever organization you're working for, and might have different policies or cut certain funding things, right? And that can be hard sometimes I think, when um, you see people trapped and stuck and there's like, not much they can do. Or um, yeah, I guess that's a really hard one too is like when you see people wanting help and stuff but they're like ignored and stuff. I think there's like a lot of.... Like, I still experience it, so I see it as a peer myself, but like people are like, like really looked down upon or something like they're beneath society. So a lot of times, like, they can. Doesn't matter what they're saying or want to be heard or, um. They're not, right? And so it's just, like this... this thing where [it] doesn't matter how long or how loud you yell and stuff, nobody sometimes can hear you. Yeah, so I guess I got that for myself as a peer or even, um....Hmm.

Giorgia Ricciardi 26.38

That's heartbreaking.

Ryan Nielsen 26:41

Yeah. Um, yeah. That's a good one, though. Definitely brings up a lot of thoughts and stuff. Sometimes I have a... to take time to like process things. I apologize.

Giorgia Ricciardi 26:54

No, no, no, that's okay. No worries at all. I'll give you more time. I'm not in a rush at all. Just reading through the questions, you've answered kind of a lot of them already, just in your answer. Like the next one was do you feel that the illustration accurately represents your experiences related to your work stressors?

Ryan Nielsen 24:59

Yeah, no, definitely. And like, I guess that's sometimes too, right? Where, like, I find like, like, the stressors can be a lot, but like, also not much choice sometimes. Like, I find it kind of ironic, where like, I'll work at these like, you know, places of harm reduction. So they're always like, you gotta have mental health days, you know, harm [indistinguishable], you know, take days off and all these things, it's like, okay, but like, my, my parents are pretty broke, they're, they don't live with me, right? Like, they're struggling as is. So it's not like I'm getting assistance from them. I don't have friends and stuff, like, it's very expensive to live on your own. Very expensive to, you know, inflation and stuff. But so you almost feel like you're stuck sometimes, like, and even for, I guess myself, like, for whatever reason happened, like, I never thought any, like, I never thought my addiction or anything would actually have any benefit at all, like, or use out of it. So it's like, oh, I actually have a job where getting paid above minimum wage where I can, you know, support myself, but you know, even with that it's like, kind of, you know, you just kind of... You're making it, you're scraping by but you're not like doing, you know, not going on vacations, you're not going out very much, right? 

Ryan Nielsen 28:28

So, I feel like where I'm like, okay, like, I can't not get a differ... Well, how I feel
is like, can I look for something else? Okay, well, what's the wage compared to what I'm doing now and stuff, right? Like, is it as meaningful? No, but you can feel like a lot sometimes, when you're doing like, these or like that week that I had to cancel on you, right? Where it was like 14 hour days and stuff. Like, I feel, like, trapped sometimes. Or I'm like, "Yup, this is. I have to do these 14 hour days," like, not like, I don't have a choice on doing these, unless I want stressors of like, not paying bills and stuff, right? Like. So, and it can be really traumatic, right? So you have 14 hours of watching people overdose and stuff. Like that's, like, you feel like this person in the bottle. And sometimes like, or even you say it to people, right? Like, you're, I know, my new job is really good. But like I do work two jobs, right? So that's, other ones, like they're really short staffed, and they really, really rely on me a lot, even when I'm up there. And doesn't matter sometimes if I like, express how I'm feeling or like, "hey, yeah no, like my mom's, you know, she was in the hospital twice last week. This is what's going on. I just got off my work [indiscernible], like, I'm not sure if I can do this extra hour." 

Ryan Nielsen 29:42

And it's just like, they don't hear me, right? Or, like, when I talk to other peers sometimes, when they're going through their own struggles, right? It's like, sometimes you just, I don't know, you just feel like nothing is heard, right? So you kind of just like, you know? You kind of give up, almost. So it's, I think, almost, I get like desensitized because it's like okay, "well, no one really gives a crap of what I have to say about," right?  But, um, and it's kind of always reversed, I guess, I find, so. And just, I don't know, seeing that stuff all the time, man. Sometimes you're just like, you want to, like, go back to like, your childhood and just be like, you know, have a normal thing for a day, or like, a week where, you know, you're not constantly exposed to, like, death, trauma, or like, I don't know, stuff like that, right? But at the same time, it's such a serious issue, right? And then that's what's hard for me too, like, why I'm also an outreach worker is not because, like I, for the money. Like, yes, it's part of it, but that part it's like, like, my own lived experience. Like I know, people, like I have very, very close people to me that are dead, like they're not here anymore, right?

Ryan Nielsen 29:42 

So that's why I do this. And when I see that, too, it's hard. Like, you develop people, right? You get to know clients, and then they pass on or they don't,
and you, right? And it's kind of like, that's just part of the job. Like that's what my boss even says, like, "yeah, that's part of the job description." Like, you gotta get used to people dying, like, that's part of it. So when I, fuck, I'm sorry, I'm doing really long answer right now, but. 

Giorgia Ricciardi 31:18

That's okay.

Ryan Nielsen 31:20

Yeah, just kind of like with the bottle, I guess, is what I see is, like, how I see like, every peer, well just about every peer, I think I helped. And myself, even other  workers, harm reduction workers is that they feel trapped too, right? Like, a lot of people are in the same boat as I am, is that they're out of recovery. You know, they're a little bit farther behind because of their addiction, right? You know they're going into schooling when they are thirty or something, and they have
this job, but, um, they have to, like, can't be heard sometimes. Right? You know, so.

Giorgia Ricciardi 31.58

Timelines are arbitrary anyways, who says that you have to have it all together by the time you're 30? That's silly.

Ryan Nielsen 32:04

Right? Everyone does go to their own pace, I guess. Yeah. But--

Giorgia Ricciardi 32:07

yeah, totally.

Ryan Nielsen 32:08

Feels weird sometimes though.

Giorgia Ricciardi 32:11

Yeah, no, I get it. There's still all those external pressures of, like, how you're expected to present in society and, like, yeah--

Ryan Nielsen 32:19

 yeah --

Giorgia Ricciardi 32:19

yeah. Um...So, you give a lot of yourself to your community but do you feel like you receive support in any way? Like, it sounds like you're not getting a lot of support from... I don't know, if both of your jobs or one of your jobs? Do you receive support? How do you receive that support? What does that look like for you?

Ryan Nielsen 32:45

Um, hmm. Yeah, I don't know, not really too much sometimes, like, trying to think... Yeah, I think that this new job I got, it's, uh, they're really good. They're really like about, they're very supportive like, they, I think they go over the top, but I just got, like, I got hired there like a month ago. So I'm not really trying to take all the mental health days that they're saying and stuff until I have like, my probation over with and stuff, maybe. A little more secure and stuff. But, um, yeah, I don't know, just, I guess sometimes it's hard to find resources and support like, like, like before, my kind of support was my family. 'Cause like, when I had to, like, when I got sober and stuff, I had to leave. I did leave all my friends that were alive, still, [that] I hung out with if they were still in the cycle and stuff, which they all were. So, had to do a fresh start. And I really relied on my family to get me through that and like my family's... well, right now they're [just in] a different spot, where like, my mom's like, very terminally ill, she doesn't have like, she'll be like, Doctor says, she'll be like, gone within, you know, the end of the year

Ryan Nielsen 33:58

My dad's pretty stressed on that aspect. And they're gone. So and I talked to him a lot of it to, like, about my mom, right? Or um, my dad's company not working, right? And stuff like that. So, it's almost like a supportive role in that aspect. So like, I find my support is self care techniques, or um, my girlfriend is pretty remarkable, to be honest. Like, it's, she's got her own experience in itself. So she's very similar to me. But we just, like, really, we really support each other, right? So like, we really have talks about our days, what's going on, like, kind of able to take the mask off with her and stuff and just kind of be myself. The big one too, is like, it's just like learning, like, you know, like, sounds stupid, but like, I feel like, from my experience, the only thing I found, like, I have control over is my mind, I guess. Like, I really can't control like, all, you know, my mom's health or all, some of the shit that happens. But like, I can control like, to a certain degree, right? It's hard, but try to change or like what I do with my thinking. 

Ryan Nielsen 35:07

So I really try to like, you know, have my time in the morning, like, I try to wake
up, you know, if I can, like, for an hour. And just to have like my, read a book or play my game or like, so those kinds of things, I look to forward to in the evening, I really tried to, um, like the thing I've been really doing that's been kind of saving me is I try to find the good in every day. So like, even those 14 hour days, like I really stopped trying to be like," okay, like, you know, my next day off is gonna be like, in 14 days," or whatever it is, I just go, you know, this is the moment, I'm
gonna try and enjoy it for what it is. You know, like, I'm sitting here, I'm helping people and I really keep on trying to, like. I'm trying to figure how to word it, but like, I feel like that like, with my life I'm at this point too, where it's like, things are just gonna keep on happening and stuff. So it's like, okay, you know, what can I do, is just try to find the joy in the little things or in the crazy days and stuff. So I find that that's really helpful. Just like, mini self-cares, days off sometimes, try to
like, you know, rest, take it easy. Exercises and stuff. I wish, I wish I had some more supports and stuff for like, maybe schooling and housing and stuff. I know. Yeah, it's kind of, it's hard sometimes. Like, I really want to finish my degree. But it's just like super expensive. And I know, like, even being First Nations and stuff, you get certain funding, but then like that, that kind of gets cut off sometimes, like it did to me recently. And or, or even like counseling and stuff, like I would love to get, like, just to, like, I don't know like, vent to someone once a week or once a
month or something, just to get it all out because sometimes I feel like it's a lot, like, I do.

Ryan Nielsen 37:06

Sometimes I feel really stuck. And I'm like, at a breaking point where I'm like, "Oh, this sucks, man." Like I just want to stop but I, you know, I would never do that just because of, you know, all these things in life and stuff, but I hate that feeling when you get to that point and you want to have support. Or like, this is one that I find hilarious is like, "Okay, call the crisis line," right? Like, alright. I needed to do that I think like, last week or something, I was like, "oh, I really need to, like, some help." You call those lines? Like, you're gonna be sitting there on wait for like, forever,
like," oh, yeah, I'm suicidal" or no, I'm not, I wasn't suicidal. But I'm saying like, if you were, like, this happened to people I know. You know, you're kind of stuck out of luck and like, so same with me where I was just like, "oh, I want to talk to someone," like just some support line. And I think I called, like, a few of them. And I was like, alright, so I can't get that there. What about, you know, counseling? Okay, well, it's like 100 bucks a session, like. What about the free ones? "Oh, well,
no, you don't qualify, you need to live in the city. The one that you do qualify, you have already used all your your six, you know, your six weeks, like four years ago." Like, all right, well, people need more than just, like, counseling like six years ago, right? Like, sometimes they might need, like, one, but it's hard, right? Because like, I get it too, right. Like, I don't know, with inflation things are, like,
pretty whack, right? Can't just like, people aren't doing things for free. But yeah, I guess that's just, it is what it is.

Giorgia Ricciardi 38:30

This is also the time that a lot of folks need it the most. Because --

Ryan Nielsen 38:33

 yeah --

Giorgia Ricciardi 38:30

it's so hard to make ends meet in these times. It's --

Ryan Nielsen 38:39

 right? --

Giorgia Ricciardi 38:39

crazy --

Ryan Nielsen 38:40

it's crazy--

Giorgia Ricciardi 38:40

It's crazy out here!

Ryan Nielsen 38:41

It's super crazy, right? You go to the grocery store, and it's like, "what?" Like, "I barely bought anything. How's that $100?" 

Giorgia Ricciard 38:48

I know! --

Ryan Nielsen 38:49

It's crazy.

Giorgia Ricciardi  38:50
I know. And like yeah, like, you can't even get the things that like you need to make your body and your mind feel good. 

Ryan Nielsen 38:55

Yeah, yeah!

Giorgia Ricciardi  38:55

Because they're so expensive. I swear they're getting more expensive every week.

Ryan Nielsen 38:58

Yeah. Oh, for sure. Yeah

Giorgia Ricciardi  38:50

Yeah. 

Ryan Nielsen 39:00

Yes. Right? Exactly. So sometimes it's like, right? You gotta, especially if you don't have, like, people that can help you out, right? You're like, on your own. And so yeah, you kind of have to do what you got to do at the end of the day. So. 

Giorgia Ricciardi  39:11

Yeah. 

Ryan Nielsen 39:12

Like being, being unhoused would make things a lot more tougher on me. So like, I will take the stress of, you know, working a bunch than, like, not having money and being homeless, I think.

Giorgia Ricciardi  39:24
Yep. You have a very admirable kind of outtake. I really admire, like, you know, find the good in every day and the mini self cares, and just trying to keep that positive mindset. You're right, though, it's very hard to do. So. Just even the fact that you're trying is, is already, I think, really incredible. So I just wanted to kind of commend that.

Ryan Nielsen 39:52
Oh, thank you very much. That's uh, really nice, I appreciate that a lot.

Giorgia Ricciardi 39:57

Of course, and also just to share my, my condolences, and I'm really sorry to hear about your mom. I'm sure that's very difficult. I can't imagine what you're going through. So just just want to acknowledge that.

Ryan Nielsen 40:11

Thank you.

Giorgia Ricciardi 40:13

You've given such such good answers to this illustration. I'm just trying to go through it and see if there's anything else that we can talk about. I think I'm gonna kind of leave it at that for this one. I just want to ask, is there anything else you'd like to add about this illustration?

Ryan Nielsen 40:31

Um, I don't think so. Maybe just like, the the color in the background, the red. I don't know. Just kind of makes it a little more darker. I guess that helps kind of give that like, impression I got was, helps with that.

Giorgia Ricciardi 40:50

Yeah, yeah, it feels almost to me it looks like things are kind of, like, almost like attacking the bottle. And all these, all these little things. 

Ryan Nielsen 41:00

Yeah.

Giorgia Ricciardi 41:01

Coming right at it. Like, like, rain, but it looks worse than rain. Somehow, like fiery rain. I don't know.

Ryan Nielsen 41:05

Yeah, like, yeah, blood rain or something.

Giorgia Ricciardi 41:08

Ooooh. Okay -- 

Ryan Nielsen 41:12

alright, all good --

Giorgia Ricciardi 41:12 

We have one more. This is the last one. 

Ryan Nielsen 41:15

Okay.

Giorgia Ricciardi 41:16 

Is this also Thomas'?

Ryan Nielsen 41:18

I think so. Yeah.

Giorgia Ricciardi 41:19

Okay. All right. What do you see in this illustration?

Ryan Nielsen 41:28

Um, I think my first reaction is like I see a faceless person, I think. So like they're, they're a person, but then their face is kind of like peeled off. And then there's all these other faces, I guess. Yeah, so I guess like the, like, what I get off this one is like, I think there's like different roles, right? Like, sometimes, with people? And like, there's like a school role, right? There's like, okay, this is who I am at school. This is who I am that work. This is who I am with my family. This is who I
am with these people. And I think that's kind of what happens in this photo. At least what I get off of it and there's all the different, like, personas someone has to do sometimes. And I think, particularly with substance use and addiction, or any mental illness, for that matter, is that people are really masking to the world, in a way. So in the masking, they have these different, like personas, I guess, or different roles they have, right?  Um, and I think like, I don't know, I kind of get, like, a side vibe off of it in a way? Like, where it's like, the person is just, um, maybe like,
unsure of themselves in a lot of ways because they're so, they have all these different faces to choose from and doing things. And then I think, like, a lot of times this stigma and stuff with people not being able to share that. So then they're just constantly swapping and exhausted, I guess.

Giorgia Ricciardi 43:16

Yeah. Um, would you say that this represents a specific moment that you've experienced in your work?

Ryan Nielsen 41:07

Yes, absolutely. Um, I find like, I'm like this actually quite a lot. So like, my, one of my jobs, I have, like, right? A certain role for them. So like, I have a certain personality for it, or certain, like, demeanor. And then if I go to KPU and I'm at school, like, again, that's kind of a different one to like, do it. So yeah, for outreach though, particularly, it's a lot, I guess. So like, I'll be talking to the peers themselves, right? I want to relate to them, I want to like, like, I think that's fundamental actually, about having someone like a peer support worker, or whatever, is that they've been there, and they can relate to these people and been there myself and also work with it. They just don't trust anyone that hasn't had any addiction or experienced substance use, they just kind of think that they're, they're different, right? And they don't know what it's like, and they have a bad stigma approach. So, when I, when I talk to them, it's really weird sometimes because like, I am almost switching back to, not completely, but like, I'm definitely
taking parts of, like, four years, five years ago, I guess now. And like, how I used to be, so I can connect and make a relationship with these people. And that's kind of weird sometimes. So I'm like, I'm, I'm like switching to this, like, way more street person, but then I'll literally, might be in the same room where I have to talk to my manager, and then that's a straight up, more professional personality for the manager. Then let's say, the director, okay, well, the director comes in and there's gonna be even a different switch than the manager, it's gonna be a lot more, like, you know, professional, careful with what I'm saying. And like, really think it through and stuff. And there's even some of these peers, like, I know, like, it was getting really stressful for me, did have to leave the outreach at the [indistinguishable] because of that. 

Ryan Nielsen 45:25

But there was like another lead outreach worker, and like, she was just like, the way you had to kind of act with her was like, I had to change personalities with her. And it was weird. So like, and people recognized it too. Sometimes they be like, "wow, like, you really, I noticed like a really big switch in you when you like, work with [bleeped]" or whatever, right? And it's like oh, yeah. I guess that's, like, I do switch off personalities or, um? And then yeah, the same with my boss, too. And so it's like, kind of a tiring thing, I guess, with that but the average worker is, like, doing all these personas and stuff. Yeah. I guess, right, you just try not to, when you're doing all that tough, it's hard not to lose --or it can be easy to lose sight of your true self, like who you are, because you're doing all these roles all the time, right? So it can get confusing --

Giorgia Ricciardi 46:21

yeah, that sounds exhausting --

Ryan Nielsen 46:22

I think and that can add to the problem, I guess, or like the difficulty the person is experiencing.

Giorgia Ricciardi 46:30

Can you tell me a little bit more about your experience in that in the moment of having to change, like, put your different masks on? Put your different hats on, however you want to describe that?

Ryan Nielsen 46:40
Um, I guess it's like, really kind of anxious a lot of the time, to be honest with you, it's like, because it's like, so much energy sometimes. Especially for certain, like personalities. It's like, "okay, I gotta be, like, really intense with this person." Or like, really, um, listen, I guess or just... You get really anxious. I find sometimes I'm like, "okay, I gotta switch with this person, or I got to work with this person today," or "Alright, I gotta..." Um like, those jobs where, like, two in one day sometimes, like, "okay, role for this" and then after like, have an hour to switch to the next role and then within that role, sometimes switch roles, and then you kind of just feel like, really drained. I feel really drained, personally, like I, it's like exhausting, I guess, it's like...Hmm. And it's like, kind of like, you start to doubt yourself too, a little bit. You're like, "am I doing this?" Like, "should I, like, be doing this? Or like, can I be
doing this differently?" But I don't know, I guess it's, I don't know. I guess it's confusing for me sometimes. Does-- not a good feeling, it's like, confusion... Yeah.

Giorgia Ricciardi 48:14

Yeah, how do you, kind of, bounce back from that?

Ryan Nielsen 48:06

Um, hmm. I think just having my um, having my alone time in the evening or whatever, I can have it, just to like, do a reset, a little bit. Um. Yeah, I'm trying to like, to be honest, I'm trying to work on better ones right now. Like I know, I got to do something better, but I don't know, if right now it's working. It's
just taking it easy in the evenings, focusing on a goal I have or something I'm trying to achieve, and just like to focus on that during hard times or during times I'm switching a lot. Okay, "well, you have this look forward to" or you know, try to find the positive in the day which... human, so some days are better than others. Just really having that like self care in the evening or --

Giorgia Ricciardi 49: 18

Super important. Do you hear anything when you look at this picture?

Ryan Nielsen 49:43

Um...Kinda, like, just like a bunch of different like, sounds or stuff. Some are laughs some are cries, like, just... yeah. Like a symphony of of noises or different people's noises, I guess.

Giorgia Ricciardi  49:50
What do you feel in your body looking at this?

Ryan Nielsen 50:10

Um...To be honest, like a little bit like despair a little bit sometimes. I don't know. Maybe it's just, like, my mood right now. But I don't know, just like, seeing all the faces and stuff. Just like, and how the guy doesn't have one. It's just like, I don't know, sad, because I'm like, "oh, this is a human being" and like, they're not sure what's, you know, who they are or what's going on. And like, it looks like it's taking a toll on them. Yeah.

Giorgia Ricciardi 50:45

Yeah. Would you say that that's kind of similar or different to how you feel when you're feeling like you have to change the masks that you wear in your different roles as well?

Ryan Nielsen 50:54

Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

Giorgia Ricciardi  51:00

How-- So... how, how would this ideally, end for you? Like how would you ideally resolve... I don't know if this image or the feeling that you got from this image? Or? Yeah. I don't know if that makes sense...

Ryan Nielsen 51:15

Like, how would I resolve the feeling, I guess? Or like, change it?

Giorgia Ricciardi  51:21

Yeah, yeah.

Ryan Nielsen 51:24

I think the best way to change it and what I got to do is just kind of be more like, authentic and genuine with who I am. Right? I think it goes back to like, what I've been slowly realizing this last little week is like, things are always going to happen, right? Like, there's always gonna be some incident, there's always going to be something happened to the rent, there's gonna be something, like, job, like, life is just life, right? And so it's just about being authentic and genuine, and not, I think compromising as much to, to everything. I think it's like, I think especially when I see people dying all the time, it's like life can be really short, right? And if you're -- you only -- as far as we all know, right? This is kind of all we, you know, for our life, this is it, for this world, whatever. And to really make the best out of it, I think and it's like, okay, you want to live your life, living to your values and who you are or do you want to be living like constantly swapping masks, faces
all the time? Like, which-- how do you want to live your life? I think sometimes, and I think for me, it's going to be authentic, genuine and stuff and just deal with the problems as they come, right? Because problems are always going to come and try to, what I try to do sometimes is picking the safe, the safer option or something, right? Or trying to get into this, like, preparation mode, right? Like for everything, but it's like, just go with the ride sometimes because it's gonna go either way, right? So why not go the way you want to go? If you're gonna go that way? 

Giorgia Ricciardi 52:47

Yeah. 

Ryan Nielsen 52:48

Probably doesn't make sense, but yeah.

Giorgia Ricciardi 52:51

No, I got you. Um, is there anything at all that you'd like to add? Have I missed anything?

Ryan Nielsen 53:03

Um...I think that's it? Yeah.

Giorgia Ricciardi 53:10

Okay. Well, that brings us to the end of the, the kind of, graphic elicitation interviews.

Ryan Nielsen 53:18

Sounds good.

Giorgia Ricciardi 53:21

Thank you so much.

Ryan Nielsen 53:24

Thank you. Hope you have a great rest of your week and --. 

Giorgia Ricciardi 53:24

thank you, you too!

Ryan Nielsen 53:26

And thank you for everything.

Giorgia Ricciardi 53:26
Yeah! No worries.

Caitlin Burritt 53:30

That brings us to the end of this episode of the That brings us to the end of this episode of the Unsilencing Stories podcast. To listen to more interviews in the series, please go to www.unsilencingstories.com. And if you'd like to share your thoughts on the episode, message us at unsilencingstories@gmail.com Thank you for listening.