Taija McLuckie: Graphic Elicitation Interview

This episode is a graphic elicitation, which is a research method in which art produced by researchers or participants, is used to invite participants to reflect on their lived experiences, beliefs, or behaviours. Caitlin Burritt talks to Taija McLuckie about two pieces of art Caitlin created based on Taija’s interviews. Taija discusses how the art makes her feel, and what seeing the art makes her recall about those moments in her life. 

This episode was recorded on June 22, 2023.

To see the art discussed in this graphic elicitation, please watch the interview on YouTube: https://youtu.be/waYxb4UDDD4

Transcript

Caitlin Burritt 00:00  

Thank you for listening to the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. We are in the midst of a public health crisis. More than 32,000 people in Canada have died from fatal opioid overdoses since 2016 according to Health Canada. Previously, this podcast featured interviews with bereaved people in smaller towns and communities in BC and Alberta who have lost loved ones to fatal overdose. In this phase, we're sharing interviews with seven harm reduction workers, also known as peers, in different parts of BC.  

Caitlin Burritt 00:27  

The BC Centre for Disease Control Harm Reduction Services defines harm reduction as support services and strategies that aim to keep people safe and minimise death, disease and injury from high risk behaviour. Peers face a lot of challenges. This has been documented by many researchers including Zahra Mamdani and colleagues in BC. In their 2021 paper they outline significant challenges peers face including financial struggles, difficulty finding housing and stressors at work. We wanted to explore these themes with peers and find out more about their experiences and share this information with the public. So we conducted multiple remote interviews with harm reduction workers and invited them to talk about the stressors they face.  

Caitlin Burritt 01:06  

Please note this podcast contains information about substance use, overdose death, grief, trauma and stressors that peers face and this may be distressing to listen to. The podcast is part of a research project led by Aaron Goodman, PhD, faculty member at Kwantlen Polytechnic University in Surrey, BC, and conducted under the auspices of a grant known as the Chancellor's Chair Award. I'm Caitlin Burritt, a researcher with the project. A number of researchers including Giorgia Ricciardi and Chloe Burritt, who happens to be my sister, and a number of students have played key roles in the study and you'll hear many of their voices in this podcast.  

Caitlin Burritt 01:49   

This episode is a graphic elicitation, which is a research method in which art produced by researchers or participants is used to invite participants to reflect on their lived experiences, beliefs or behaviors. Caitlin Burritt talks to Tajia McLuckie about two pieces of art Caitlin created based on Tajia's interviews. Tajia discusses how the art makes her feel and what seeing the art makes her recall about those moments in her life. 

Tajia McLuckie  02:11 

I printed these on, like photo, like, matte photo paper -- 

Caitlin Burritt  02:15 

Oh --  

Tajia McLuckie  02:15 

by the way -- 

Caitlin Burritt  02:16 

cool! Okay.  

Tajia McLuckie  02:17 

These are so amazing.  

Caitlin Burritt  02:19 

Oh, I'm so, I'm so happy that, yeah, that you like them. And also is that, is that the best way, like, that you would like to, as we talk about them, look at them? Because I can also share my screen. But if you prefer to look at the page, that's also totally fine.  

Tajia McLuckie  02:38 

I can look at them here, that's fine. 

Caitlin Burritt  02:40 

So basically, this is kind of an interesting interview, because it's, it's an accompanying piece, but I believe people will also be able to view it kind of as a standalone if they want. So we have, I have a little, basically, introduction section to go over with you, which it will be sort of strange for us, because we have done this so many times now, but just in case anyone clicked on this one first. Um, so, I will just go along that to start us off with. It just starts off with some biographical, intersectional information, and the reason for that is because one of the things that we want to explore in the study is whether intersectionality is related to the work-related stressors that peers face. It's up to you if you want to share the information or not. So, the first thing that I'll get you to do is just to introduce yourself, if you'd like to use a pseudonym, you can.  

Tajia McLuckie  03:44 

My name is Tajia McLuckie, no pseudonym. 

Caitlin Burritt  03:49 

And what are your pronouns?  

Tajia McLuckie  03:52 

She, her.  

Caitlin Burritt  03:54 

Do you feel comfortable giving your location that you work? Or would you like to pass that one?  

Tajia McLuckie  04:03 

I'm not sure what I answered the first time around, but I think after going through all of this, this process, I am comfortable saying that I am on the unceded traditional territory of the Comox First Nation otherwise, calling it Courtney, on Vancouver Island. 

Caitlin Burritt  04:23 

Yes. What is your age?  

Tajia McLuckie  04:26 

I'm 34.  

Caitlin Burritt  04:28 

And then the other intersectional details we ask for if you're comfortable, are, what is your: gender, sex, race, ethnicity, class, sexuality, religion, disability or physical appearance? But you can answer whichever one of those that you like, or none of them. It's up to you.  

Tajia McLuckie  04:52 

I am very mindful of my privilege as a white, used to say middle class, but I'm not sure how much that exists anymore. I have a Ukrainian and Scottish background that I am deeply in love with, and I think I talk a lot throughout these episodes about having ADHD. I don't like to call that a disability. I think it has given me the gifts that that I have within this work. So my hyper focus of harm reduction is embedded in my disability. Weight fluctuates, yeah, physical appearance, lots of tattoos and lots of piercings because I get bored. 

Caitlin Burritt  05:52 

Yeah, that is a good. Yeah. Happens to the best of us, the tattoos and piercings.  

Tajia McLuckie  06:03 

Mhmm. 

Caitlin Burritt  06:04 

So basically, for the illustrations, I have, similar to the oral history process of the previous interviews, I have a long list of questions, um, but we can also sort of take or leave it, depending on how the conversation goes. I don't have to ask you every single one down the row. I guess the good starting point would be, which one would you like to start with? There's the one where you are, sort of, responding to a presentation that you had to give after you heard the news of a friend's passing very suddenly. Or there is the one story where you revived another person that you knew. 

Tajia McLuckie  06:56 

I, you know what? I. This is the today was the first time I actually took a look at the, the one with my friend, and I have thought about it all day. So, I think that if I don't talk about that one first, I'll be thinking about it at least. 

Caitlin Burritt  07:11 

Okay, so we can start there. So, what do you see in this illustration, and what, what moment does it represent to you in both your life and your work as a peer? 

Tajia McLuckie  07:28 

When I, when I looked at this image, the one where, like in the top right, where she's in the chair, I'm immediately, like, brought back to that moment. It, and not in a negative way, but it just, it really. It was like I was in that room again. I felt all of the same, or I could, like, recall that feeling of like, "Oh my God." And then the immediate, like, need to, to help her. I haven't really reflected much on my side of it. I think more, more so when we did talk about it, we talked a lot about my experience, like, with her, and possibly, like, what she went through. But, yeah, I just, I really reflected on that moment with her, and I haven't talked to her for a while, so I just, it was a good, in a really fucked up way, it was a good memory. 

Caitlin Burritt  08:40 

Yeah, and I think, you know, in the moment, as you describe feeling memories, the physical memories of that moment, that is one of the things that is on our list of questions of, you know, how did you feel in your, in your body and your senses in that moment? And maybe, why do you think it? It recalls it for you, when you see it? 

Tajia McLuckie  09:10 

Oh I, I felt it in my whole body. It was, maybe not as, as intense as it was in the, in the moment, um, when that was actually happening, but I, my body just responded in the same way. Um... 

Tajia McLuckie  09:30 

It... Yeah, it just, it just had me, like, reflecting on my, my work, and how it, that seems to be that reaction of, rather than calling for help, just I am the person that is the help and that, that has always come naturally to me. Yeah, it's so, it's crazy how I can relate it to something that I'm really proud of, because it's, it's intense, and it was, I mean, after that, that situation, I took two months off work to process it. So it didn't come without harm, but I'd still do the same thing again. Still am. 

Caitlin Burritt  10:26 

Yeah, 'cause it's one of the, um,  while I was doing the art for it, I had, I had that transcript out, and I remember you talking about, you know, sort of in the immediate aftermath, you were having a lot of trouble sleeping, and were like, "why can't I, why can't I go to sleep?" And so I think it's just, that story that you told. It. I feel like it could be a graphic novel on its own, you know, it could be a whole slew of pages. So, you know? And you also describe that it's something, you've described yourself as someone who you do run in, in those situations, but I think this was, I believe you said it was your first time that you had used Naloxone, in that moment. 

Tajia McLuckie  11:13 

Yeah, yeah. And I also, you just brought another memory from that moment, because I had been showing someone how to use Naloxone the other day, and there's this little silver dot that's behind this, like, opaque kind of screen thing so you don't cut yourself when you pop the top. And I, I remember that I forgot to, like, swirl the bottle, because, I mean, when you're not practicing it every day, and, and it's been, let's say, a few weeks, and then this being my first moment with, like, someone that I thought of as a friend, and how intense the situation was. I remember trying to get the Naloxone out of the bottle and, but like, not realizing that it was also stuck in the top half, so I was like, "Why is there so little in here?" And then having to get another bottle or another ampule, sorry, of it, and then that moment, like, right before I'm about to inject her, I like, stopped for a second and was like, "Holy shit, I'm about to put a needle in somebody." Which I've never done before! And so I think what it takes to go from, you know, that point, to actually inserting the syringe, it's... That's a huge step.  Yeah.

Caitlin Burritt  11:15 

Yeah, absolutely. And it's, yeah, I feel like it's definitely a situation where you can do all the, all the theory practice on, like, someone who's not actually in, at risk, like, medically at risk in the situation. But having that, that pressure must be a whole other moment. I guess, just for your experience in that moment, is that something that you think of, of how you responded in an earlier part of your career in harm reduction? Do you feel, I mean, you would obviously respond the same way now. Do you think it would be a similar experience now?  

Tajia McLuckie  13:32 

I don't think so, because each time, um, each time there is any sort of crisis meeting with either, you know the mobile response team and whoever else has responded to something, doing a check in, if you are, if you're at work, and then, like, I cannot stress the importance of a debrief and, afterwards, because from, I learned so much from that moment. So, you know, what went well, and then what would you have done differently? And then you just do better each time. So I mean, now... It's pretty, like, muscle memory. Now what I do when I come upon someone that has become unresponsive to an unregulated supply. 

Caitlin Burritt  14:29 

Yeah, that makes sense of not, um. I don't know, getting, getting easier over time doesn't sound like the right word in this this context, but you have a better idea of, of what to do. How, in this moment, did you, did you have anyone else supporting you, or did the support come more afterwards, with the debrief? 

Taija McLuckie  14:54 

The support definitely came afterwards, because my, the person that I was on shift with, she was on another floor in the building, and when she was, I think she was doing wellness checks, which we would do every night, if, on the people that we hadn't seen that day. We like to see everyone at least twice a day or talk to them. And that's when I got the call to the office from the room that these people were in, and so I had brought Naloxone and our kit, and then I went just on my own, to the room because I was told that this person was having a seizure, or the person on the phone said that she was having a seizure, and because of this person's history, that was likely to have happened. So I went, and when I opened the door, that's when I realized this was not a seizure. So I radioed my shift partner and, but I still had to respond in that moment. 

Caitlin Burritt 16:02 

So was? This scene took place when you were working in supportive housing?  

Tajia McLuckie  16:10 

Yeah, correct.  

Caitlin Burritt  16:11 

And so did you wind up having to do multiple times while you were there or, um. Or was this kind of...like a... 

Taija McLuckie  16:21 

I think, once the, because we, I was in, like, a very rural and remote community. So by the time drugs got up to us, they were pretty stepped on, um, stepped on, meaning that they left as one substance and then kind of got mixed in with a bunch of other shit along the way. And so I would say, at least, I don't know, 10, 10-15 times. Yeah, enough. Enough times. Fortunately, we would have folks who would call down to us and let us know if they were using something that was new and they weren't sure of its potency. So we had built a lot of trust with the participants in order to check on them. So then we would just give them a call if they were alone and and we'd go up and check if they didn't answer.  

Tajia McLuckie  17:26 

But lots of the times people wouldn't use alone and, but I can't speak for, you know, how many times in their own rooms where they had given someone Naloxone. And if someone was, like, overdosing, but able to be roused, like, with physical stimulation then, like, a lot of the times, they would come and sit by the office, and then we would just keep checking on them, so that way we didn't have to administer Naloxone, especially if they were on Methadone or another opiate agonist therapy. You don't, kind of want to avoid that. 

Caitlin Burritt  18:04 

If possible, yeah, that makes sense. And yeah, it's, it's good that there was such a trust between the people there and and the peers, so that, yeah, probably made everything a little bit... I don't know, again, less stressful isn't quite the word  

Tajia McLuckie  18:25 

No, you're right. They really, I think my ability to connect with them over our shared experience and understanding, I might not have a history that is, that goes as, as far as, as theirs has taken them, but there's a common ground and, and I think we just, as peers, that we just know how to treat each other and how that makes us feel safe. So I think that had a lot to do with it. 

Caitlin Burritt  18:28 

[I] think that's kind of something that really comes through in that story, um. Because, yeah, one of my favorite moments from it is where, you know, when you're describing when she woke up and that you, you linked eyes, and then sort of the, the compassionate response to it. And so I guess just as far as the illustration goes, does that feel represented accurately to you? And as well as your experiences, sort of related to the, both the stressors of being a peer, but also the, the compassion and the, like, mutual, lived, living experience? 

Tajia McLuckie  19:43 

I think so. I think you did a great job. I love what, how I'm in that frame, and like, because I actually, because I'm such a theatrical, like, hands talker person. So I remember being like, "Look at me!" Like, "Come on! You can do it! Look at me!" Like, I just, that, because you can see a shift in someone who was, where it had, from where she was and to, you know, coming back to being conscious and responsive and, and it, I, this is also a terrible analogy, but when someone's running the last, you know, 50 meters of a race, and they're, there's like, three of them, and they're neck and neck, and you're either, like, a parent or a coach or whoever, and you're like, "come on!" and like, you're just trying to, like, motivate that extra adrenaline.  

Tajia McLuckie  20:40 

The same thing goes for, for reviving somebody. I think that people can hear more than we think that they can hear whether they are registering it on a conscious level. It's so important to talk to people and to do that in a way that's, like, genuine, yeah. So you nailed it in that one too. 

Caitlin Burritt  21:05 

Thanks. Yeah, it's just also, you know, just looking at, back over, over the interviews, it was so, you know, you made that motion in, while you were talking. So, like, you can even see while you were retelling the story, how that could come into play. And yeah, how, yeah, how it would connect with someone. And yeah -- 

Tajia McLuckie  21:27 

That's cool -- 

Caitlin Burritt  21:28 

I think it was just trying to, like, translate the sort of, the physical things that I could see from the interview process into the, into the story itself. And yeah, I remember in the, one of your earlier bits of feedback was how, basically how you had found her in the chair and how she was lying. So I think the way that you describe things is very helpful also to, to doing the art, because it, like, makes a very clear visual picture to work with, which is really great.  

Tajia McLuckie  22:01 

I'm definitely a storyteller. I think that's. There's this one person who, he works for the Mobile Response Team, and I think that's why I have been so very well supported by this person, because he's also a narrative therapist, is like his, or narrative counselor, therapist, in his other life, job.  But so yeah, he's a storyteller, and that is the only way that I've ever found that I can express how I'm feeling, is by trying to have someone else connect to a feeling through a story.  

Caitlin Burritt  22:46 

Well, I think you do it very successfully, because I could usually get the drawings of you done very quickly, because I was like, I have an idea of how Tajia would be moving or talking or speaking, and then it was the other figures that would come into play that were a bit more challenging. So, this was an incident where afterwards, you said that you, you went on a leave. How did that come about? And did you realize that, yourself, that that was something that you needed to do, sort of in the aftermath of the experience? 

Tajia McLuckie  23:23 

Um, so the way that I, like, work things out, that I go through, challenging things I... Any sort of, like crisis, or after a debrief, I very, I get very matter of fact. If I can understand how something works, and if I can, I guess, rationalize it, if it can make sense to me, then I move on from it. Once I, like, make up my mind about most things, then that's like checking the box, and when this happened, I guess I was just still very removed from my, like, my emotional response. I didn't take that into consideration. I had never seen someone in this color before. I have not, had not experienced this magnitude of a crisis, and so I could not recognize my, like, subconscious and like, and physical response to it.  

Tajia McLuckie  24:47 

So although my body was telling me that this was really messed up, this isn't something that we see. You can't rationalize seeing someone who is almost dead. That. There's no rationale to that, and, but what I, all my thoughts were telling me was, "this went well. Thank God you were there. Thank God you were the person that was able to respond to her," because maybe that could make her, like, her recovery from this situation feel safer. She doesn't have to feel any guilt." And it could not have, I mean, it definitely could have gone a bit better. The timing kind of sucked with the staff member not being available. But all in all, everything went well, and she's alive. So then I, you know, I went home, and I remember laying on the couch and being like, "Wow. I just, I can't sleep," and I had, like, my blackout curtains and everything.  

Tajia McLuckie  25:54 

So it's like, okay, get up and do something, because I'm used to insomnia. And then that went on for, like, days, and I was like, "I want to start a new project, and I'm working on this." And I just had all these, like, manic ideas that, I mean, I still think that they were good ideas, but not well executed in that time frame. And after going to work on my day off, I remember printing a bunch of these posters and then laminating all of them. And not that, like, we couldn't use the laminator, but like, this was a lot. This was so excessive. And that's when I got a call from my coordinator the next day, and, and she knows me quite well through the Community Action Team that I was on there, and through peer support work and, and just knowing me from a very, like, ground level.  

Tajia McLuckie  27:00 

So she called, and that's when she was like, "I'm gonna give you a gift, and it's not gonna feel like a gift." She's like, "you need to take some time off. You need to take medical leave." And that, I was like, "okay," because I, I trusted her, and she was able to build that, that trust with me. And I think there might be a lot of people that hear that and think, like, "Are you a union? And your employer can't tell you that you need to take time off!" Like, there's, there's so much controversy around that but, um, thank God that she... That like, her and I had that relationship, and that she had built such a trust that she absolutely had every right to do that. She saved me from destroying myself. 

Caitlin Burritt  28:03 

Do you think that that's something, like, the conclusion of, of needing a break is something that you would have arrived at on your own if she hadn't called you and told you it'd be a good idea? 

Tajia McLuckie  28:15 

At that time? No. I was still so new into that work and as a, I love what I do, and as an over achiever and as a, I know how to work. I know that I work well, and I likely would have just continued pushing on. I was new into abstinence. I was probably, gosh, like a year and a half at that point, and so just, just a baby, and trying to recognize my own thoughts and my own feelings and reactions. So no, I definitely would not have said I needed a break. I probably would have wrecked some relationships that I worked really hard at creating or maintaining.  

Caitlin Burritt  29:11 

Sometimes, when that, sort of, workhorse brain just won't account for that something really stressful or jarring has happened. It's like amazing that the human mind will do that sometimes, where it won't just take the stock. 

Tajia McLuckie  29:27 

And like, pre-COVID, it, the idea of going into work or call, sorry, calling into sick. Calling into sick? Calling in sick to work, even if you're legitimately sick, was not an option. Well, I didn't ever feel like that for me. I always had thought maybe someone... One, I didn't want to let people down. Two, I didn't think that they would believe me. So, I think that a lot of people can relate to dragging themselves to work when they have the flu so their manager can see them to be like, "Okay, you are sick. Go home." And being so young at that time, just having it assumed that I was hungover or I didn't want to come in, or whatever it was, like, calling in sick to work before COVID, I don't think was an option for most people, in fear of losing their job or whatever the case may be. It's not the same any more. 

Caitlin Burritt  30:30 

No, no. Luckily, that has shifted at least a little bit. So, I guess I will then just ask you, what are my questions here? It says, "How did this scene end?" We touched on that, and I guess it resolved... Did it feel sort of like the situation was resolved when you, when you got that experience of taking a leave? 

Tajia McLuckie  30:55 

Yeah, I think so, because it gave me the opportunity to do some more training and, and really dive into how to cope, how to manage, how to you know, I took, oh my gosh, I think I took, like, maybe a handful or two of courses in that time, just like, short certificates, just over a few weeks. And if I was still working at that time, then I would have just, like, persevered. I would have just kept pushing through my exhaustion and my experience and the trauma that came with it. I would not have addressed it in a meaningful way, um, that I was able to do then. Yeah, it definitely would not have had me in the position that I am now if I didn't get that time off. It was truly a gift. 

Caitlin Burritt  31:59 

Well, luckily, luckily, she made that call to get you to take a step back in that, in that moment. So yeah, is there anything else, um, on your mind about that illustration? Anything you'd like to add before we move to the other one? 

Tajia McLuckie  32:21 

If, I guess it just has me thinking a lot about how we... How we, how peers do this work, and how the... The people who get to hire, to employ them, and how they foster their growth. I guess my addition to this is, I hope that people hear the message of, take care of the ones that take care of you. I don't think you'll ever lose. I think we are very short-game-thinking, I guess, with our society, the culture, the work culture. So take the time to, to work through these kinds of things, and I don't think that you'll ever go wrong. 

Caitlin Burritt  33:21 

I think that's a great point that, yeah, if you support your peers, your, your workforce, it will, people will always respond better than if they feel taken advantage of. 

Tajia McLuckie  33:37 

Yeah, well, you'll have them for a lot longer. That's for sure. 

Caitlin Burritt  33:41 

Absolutely. Yeah. So then, looking at the other one, which is the one where you are, there's a panel of you at the top, and then you're also speaking to a group of of people that you were going to do a presentation with. What moment does the illustration represent for you? 

Tajia McLuckie  34:09 

Oh man. Frustration. The reality of where we are at, it... Yeah, I'm kind of, what's happening for me right now. I'm, I'm running through so many other situations, just like this one, since November, where, where I have to, or I felt I have had to stand up and and say the things and, and continue to advocate for change. And it takes a lot of work to not be angry. It. It's just mentally exhausting. And I don't have a lot of fancy words to work with, so it's really hard not to tell people, like, that they're fucking stupid. Because I don't actually feel that way. It's just, it, when something doesn't make sense to me, it's hard to it's hard to navigate that.  

Tajia McLuckie  35:39 

We have, you know, solutions on one side and then on the other side of the, like, governing bodies or health authorities or, you know, all these very well-educated, supported, and have all the platforms in the world, that are most of the time not even considering those solutions. Like, "Nope, we're just gonna keep doing this over here and up here," and keep ignoring the voices of what is many more of us than there are of them.  

Caitlin Burritt  36:25 

Yeah, and I think describing it as, sort of the, the reality of dealing with that is a very good way to put it. I remember in, in the moment in the interview of, it was so... The fact that you did still go to the presentation after experiencing the loss of your friend and that you, that you did tell the presentation of a version of that speech that is in the the text of, you know, it was just, it was very... I don't know, it's one of those things where I don't want to say that it was, like, amazing or impressive, because it's, you shouldn't have to, and especially given the context, but it was just. Yeah. It was a very eye-opening moment, I think, to, to hear that. 

Tajia McLuckie  37:16 

Oh, what a world we would live in if... sharing your experience and how you feel and what is real for you, and not being afraid... I think the world would be a much better place if everyone actually did more of those things, like, I was terrified. I had, I don't know, six weeks to prepare, and for like, four of those weeks, I was just riddled with anxiety and just couldn't keep moving forward with the slides that I had come up with and the information. I had poster boards all over my walls that, like, anytime something would pop into my head, I would write it down, and then when I would go to put it into, like, this nice, wrapped up presentation, I... I just I was so dumbfounded every time that I was talking about harm reduction, when to me, harm reduction is healthcare.  

Tajia McLuckie  38:28 

Harm reduction is the foundation of everything that we should, I think we should be doing. Um. And that I was explaining it to, again, this very well-educated group of people, like, hundreds of people. And so when I finally did wrap it all up, and I stayed up most of the night, the night before because I couldn't sleep, and then waking up to the news of my friend being dead. I... Oh yeah, man, that was really hard. And I phoned, that's when I phoned a couple of my friends, a few people that know me well, and that's, and one of my friends said, she's like, "What do you want to do?"  

Tajia McLuckie  39:26 

And I was like, "I want to go on that presentation and be like, "what the hell? Are you kidding? Is this happening right now? Does anyone else in this virtual room see how absurd it is that I'm trying to teach you how to have empathy and compassion and care? This has been going on way longer than I've been involved in it, and goes back to, like, the fucking AIDS crisis. This is, it's the same shit, different pile. Why? Why does that? Why does this have to be like this? This is a waste of time." And then I have to take this whole day off work because I can't just say, "Hey, I'm going to jump out for two hours" when I'm the only person that's in my position that's paid.  

Tajia McLuckie  40:20 

There's no coverage. So now I have to go and I'm paying for nurses and doctors and, and pharmacists, and other health professionals who make way more than I do. I have to pay them to teach them this and my friend just died, because they can't seem to figure it out on their own. Yeah, I don't know, still a mystery to me. 

Caitlin Burritt  40:51 

So, I was gonna say one of the questions are, do you identify with the person in the illustration? But I would say pretty confidently, yes, this is something that is experienced semi-regularly, it sounds like, on your end of -- 

Tajia McLuckie  41:07 

Oh I, definitely! It's me in the situation at that table. If you could animate it to where my hands go up and then hit the table, in a way that's very, I don't know, like Steve Jobs-like, like, "come on! Work harder, be better! Don't take a break! No water for you." But then I go home and actually quite often sit with my legs in the chair. I don't know if you intentionally did my, my knees up like that, because --  

Caitlin Burritt  41:48 

it was -- 

Tajia McLuckie  41:48 

whenever I'm in that chair at work, I always pull my legs up. 

Caitlin Burritt  41:51 

It was just something I noticed in the, again, in the interview footage that you did when you were, when you were talking about it, you sat like that. And I think at another uh, point in one of the interviews, you'd also mentioned that you're quite small, and so I just thought it would, it just, it suited -- 

Tajia McLuckie  41:59 

 like hugging myself.  

Caitlin Burritt  42:10 

Yeah, and especially because it's, like, a moment where you just were coming really fresh off of a loss of someone that you knew. And, yeah, I think the hugging yourself, it makes sense. 

Tajia McLuckie  42:23 

On, on Saturday, like just this past Saturday, we, the family of my friend who was in the same, like, work that I do. Much more brilliant. And we just had her service. And I actually sat like that when we had gone down to, there's a marina here, and it's beautiful. There are food trucks and a water park and a huge field, and there's these two kind of smaller rooms where people can have, like, meetings or birthdays or whichever. And there just happened to be this band that was playing. And like, I'll use that term loosely, everyone there was 75 and older. There were three banjo players, a few guitar players, some I can't recall what this instrument is. And if anyone knows what it is, they're probably like, "Are you kidding me?" It's like, that one with the single string. It's like, really tall. Kind of looks like a stick. 

Caitlin Burritt  43:50 

Yeah, I know. I know what you're talking about, but I also -- 

Tajia McLuckie  43:53 

ding, ding, ding, ding -- 

Caitlin Burritt  43:53 

don't know what it's called. 

Tajia McLuckie  43:54 

And another lady that was had this brush-looking thing that she was like slapping on a box, and they ended up setting up and getting there the same time that this this service for, kind of, everyone, happened. And I am not huge on sitting in a room full of grieving people. I can feel things quite deeply. So I moved out to the patio, and then I just sat in front of this band and then put my head up against the wall with, like, my knees tucked up. And I sat there for probably an hour, and every song that they had sang was like about, you know, like "putting her to rest, and hopefully the circle will carry us through," or "hopefully the circle will keep us strong." You know, "call God if you have something to say." And it just was, it was quite beautiful, yeah. So apparently I sit like that a lot... when I'm sad. 

Caitlin Burritt  45:00 

That's just an interesting, like, additional story to go with the visual. But in this moment, were you able to get other support? You mentioned that you were able to talk to some friends who knew you well. Did you find that helpful in, sort of, going through the emotional process of deciding what to do, and in regards to the, the presentation? Whether or not to go ahead with it or not?  

Tajia McLuckie  45:33 

I had kind of shared the same thing with, like, the two people that I had called in what I wanted to do and, and what I, how and what I wanted to say. And they were right on board. They were like, "do it" like, "if that's what you want to do, and that's what you feel that you have to do, respectfully, say the things you want to say." And then, but then also supporting. Like, when I had reached out to the pharmacy tech, who invited me to do the presentation, I... I had let her know what was going on, and she, and she, she gave me a call, and she was like, "don't feel, like, any pressure whatsoever. You don't have to do this. Take the time." And obviously sorry for my loss, and, and I was like, "I'm actually kind of thinking about doing this."  

Tajia McLuckie  46:27 

And because the presentation, and all of the presentations that day, like for that round table, they were all accredited, so they had to, you had to give what your objectives were, and then you had to teach those things. So in order for the people who were participating and watching this series, that way, they can be accredited for it, and they can get a certificate at the end of it. So if it doesn't, like, hit all those things, then they won't get that. My fear was that, because mine wasn't what it was going to be, that it would risk their certification. So I didn't want my feelings to, and what I was going through on a personal level to affect someone's education, really.  

Tajia McLuckie  47:16 

And she was like, "you can do whatever you want." So I kind of, I took everything that I had planned, except for my, like, little main objectives, and then I went totally rogue with them. And yeah, at the end, when they asked if I'd be open to questions, I think if we were in a physical room together, you probably could have heard a pin drop, because I'm not sure anyone was expecting to hear that story and to and to learn that. But my email was at the end, and it, my, I actually did, like, turn everything on silent, because it was like da-ding, da-ding, da-ding, da-ding, and so many people reached out, you know, thanking me for sharing, understanding where I've been. "I wish I could, you know, say those things." And, man, if we could all say those kinds of things out loud, and a huge group in front of so many people, again, what a world we would live in.  

Caitlin Burritt  48:24 

How did that make you feel when you got that response after the nerves of, "will I go off script or won't I?"  

Tajia McLuckie  48:34 

Supported and validated. I come from a past of being, I guess I don't want to say good with my words, but I would speak before I thought a lot. I would not consider those around me, like especially in my youth, I got myself into quite a bit of trouble for my mouth. And so in working on that at that time and always trying to be mindful of what I say and kind of what I lay on people, I could sometimes forget that this might not actually be beneficial to someone, and it might trigger them, or whatever it is, or whatever it was, but yeah, I felt this sense of, this is where I'm supposed to be, and these are the things that I'm supposed to do and say. And yeah, that's how I felt. 

Caitlin Burritt  49:39 

Which is, I guess, one of the better outcomes that you could hope to feel given the situation not being a nice one to start your, your day with, having a personal loss. I guess just glancing at our time now, is there anything, any final thoughts you have about that illustration? Anything you'd like to add?

Tajia McLuckie  50:05 

I guess if, if something that you're going to do, or that you really want to do scares the shit out of you, run it by your two very best friends first. Someone or people who are not afraid to tell you exactly how they feel, and who are not afraid to hurt your feelings, and then, if they support it, do it. That's what I'd like to add. Yeah.  

Caitlin Burritt  50:32 

I think that's a good one. I think the fear can come from a place of caring very much about what you're about to say or, or put forward. That is...

Tajia McLuckie  50:42 

Even being afraid of, like, the implications of saying what you think in front of a lot of people. It's terrifying. 

Caitlin Burritt  50:52 

Yeah, and especially when it's, you know, as you said, this is not a, it's not a strange feeling to you, where you have to go and kind of be like, "listen to what I'm saying" to all of these external... Not supports, but organizations and...  

Tajia McLuckie  51:07 

Authorities.  

Caitlin Burritt  51:08 

Yes, that's the word! Where some of the stuff should be accessible to them already, type of thing. So it's... 

Tajia McLuckie  51:17 

Definitely is!  

Caitlin Burritt  51:18 

So I think -- 

Tajia McLuckie  51:19 

 I know because I didn't have access to it when I tried.  

Caitlin Burritt  51:22 

So, I think that is a good final point there, of run it by a couple trusted people. But you know, it's usually, the fear can be showing you something is worth saying and it's worth holding your ground for things like that. Yeah, that. I believe this now will actually be the last interview that we've done. I feel like the last three we've been like, "this is the last one" and it hasn't -- 

Tajia McLuckie  51:54 

No way!  

Caitlin Burritt  51:56 

Yeah...I know it's -- 

Tajia McLuckie  51:59 

That makes me sad!  

Caitlin Burritt  52:00 

I know! It feels very weird. It just seems like it could go on forever. 

Tajia McLuckie  52:07 

Like, I've almost known you for, like a, almost a year. Oh my gosh, this can't be. This can't be it, there's no way! 

Caitlin Burritt  52:19 

That brings us to the end of this episode of the Unsilencing Stories Podcast. To listen to more interviews in the series, please go to www.unsilencingstories.com, and if you'd like to share your thoughts on the episode, message us at unsilencingstories@gmail.com. Thank you for listening.