3. Jon Alexander

Jon Alexander is an advertising executive turned social entrepreneur and writer.  In 2014, Iheco-founded the New Citizenship Project  with the mission: 'what if we saw people as citizens, not consumers?'. He has brought his experiences and insights together in a new book 'Citizens: Why the Key to Fixing Everything is All of Us'.

This interview was recorded on 13 Jan 2022, just before the book was released. As I type, Jon is on a book tour. You can buy the book directly from the publisher Canbury Press here (unfortunately, the discount Jon mentions right at the end is no longer valid) or all good bookstores.

There is two uses of f*ck ('people are f*cking good!').

Links

New Citizenship Project and key document This is The #CitizenShift.

Estimate that most Americans are exposed to around 4,000-10,000 ads each day is here.

More on the Value Action Gap.

Orit Gal's Social Acupuncture.

Amartya Sen's thesis is democracies prevent famines but not chronic malnourishment. 

Timings

1:09 - Q1 What are you doing now? And how did you get there?

10:30 EXTRA QUESTION: What are the strongest good faith arguments against your thesis and how do respond to them?

17:48 - Q2. What is the future you are trying to create, and why?

20:46 - Q3. What are your priorities for the next few years, and why?

27:55 - Q4. If someone was inspired to follow those priorities, what should they do next?

30:00 - Q5. If your younger self was starting their career now, what advice would you give them?

30:36 - Q6. Who would you nominate to answer these questions, because you admire their approach?

31:09 - Q7. Is there anything else important you feel you have to say?

Themes

-What would it look like to put as much energy that we put into consumers, into giving people agency as citizens.

-The diagnosis I'm offering is that feeling of powerlessness comes from the story that has shaped our society for the last 80 years or so is it is collapsing around us.

-But in that moment, the emergence of the idea of 'citizens', that we can arrange society around the idea that 'all of us are smarter than any of us', rather than the idea of 'we should always pursue self-interest'.

-How can we open up the institutions and organisations of our society to get in behind people and support the fundamental power they are trying to express?

-How can you put yourself in service of the people, be an organiser not just a transaction?

-The idea of consumerism is it's essentially a kind of species level of self-hatred. We are telling ourselves that we are lazy and selfish. It's the respo

Twitter: Powerful_Times

Website hub: here.

Please do like and subscribe, to help others find the podcast.

Thank you for listening! -- David

Transcript

Jon Alexander and David Bent

Thu, 1/13 12:58PM • 56:19

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, story, question, called, citizens, book, idea, consumers, consumer, world, interesting, taiwan, bit, organisations, state, society, work, realise, part, ways

SPEAKERS

David Bent-Hazelwood, Jon Alexander

David Bent-Hazelwood  00:02

To record just to make sure that there's backups and everything recording in progress. There it is.

David Bent-Hazelwood  00:23

Welcome to What can we do in these powerful times? I'm your host, David bent. And I've been working in the field of sustainability and climate change for some 20 years. Feels like the need for change is growing faster than the impact we're delivering. So I'm wondering what to do next in my career. And it turns out, others are asking themselves the same question, which is why I'm doing this interview series in 30 minute bites are some brilliant people what they're doing now and why alternate inspire and enable the audience which may just turn out to me through stories granted inexperience. Today's guest is John Alexander, co founder of the new citizenship project, a consultancy on a mission to speed the shift to a more participatory society. author of a new book citizens why the key to fixing everything is all of us Hello John Hello Hello John is by white is I'm not in the UK Which means there's a slight delay but We me and him but we will be able to cope I think So what are you doing now And how did you Together

Jon Alexander  01:39

So right now in the world I'm in the sort Pregnant Paul was before Before launch Before getting out there and telling the story about my book to the world and trauma and trauma Do the tours and do the events That's what's fake and I mean 

Jon Alexander  01:45

the journey here has been been a long one I started my career It's a sort of stumbling accidentally into avatar Coming over you ever wanted to be To be an athlete before that and better quickly working in the advertising industry started asking deeper into questions about what industries are telling the world what the industry is Seeing the world and and ultimately coming in This question of what are we doing to ourselves when we tell ourselves we consumers because no types of that I want to I want to use that as a story of individually in society what norms does that carry on what does it make us believe as possible over Sell to one another and that Was that to me to a pretty dark place And then I came out there The side and I've been left the advertising industry and and started to find another question which was What would it look like to put the same kind of energy  in creativity is Totally goes into that into into the Building people agency as citizens It was really that Principles of juxtaposition 

Jon Alexander  02:45

The ideas of Consumer and citizen is the is the A set of ideas that I Been working with ever since Over the last decade and it's the second My dears that sits at the heart and you said to me projects and and has expired Now in This insert we talk about a shift from subject to consumers assistant action from Patreon have done to them as people who have stuff done before The people who do stuff together with and through organisations and and so What I'm doing right now But the book is is really trying to offer that that sort of The story Up to the world And I'd offer it as a As a diagnosis At the moment in time we're living in as a I think it can fit Like I love the framing you get They said that uh what do we do in these Powerful times I think they are very powerful Good times but they all they They feel very it can feel very powerless actually and I think if that in that powerlessness I comes from The diagnosis I'm offering is that the feeling of powerlessness comes from the story that has shaped Tell society For the last 80 years or so is it is collapsing around us And I think In the amendments that are made of collapse the emergence of the idea of people as Since the emergence of a Have no idea that we might Be able to arrange society around An idea All of us are smart isn't any of us Rob and I random idea that we have the right Introduce the purchase self interest I think is a is a really exciting one So so what I'm doing Right now is trying to put that put that diagnosis Once the world offered up to people So more of us can feel that these times All Powerful rather than powerless

David Bent-Hazelwood  04:24

Cool so let's go through a few bits of that One is you gave a number then number of times a day The We tell ourselves that we're consumers well and citizens was it 330 As a Where does that come from

Jon Alexander  04:37

yeah Hello So So that was a I mean actually the more more estimates are anywhere between four and 10 1000 times In the in the in the Swift news circumstances additional and they've been very There is studies which have really pinpointed these numbers that sort of Mapping people's daily lives doing To the graphic studies and so forth The reason I use the number 3000 that that That was the way my job was described to me Bye bye My first boss for I started in advertising in 2003 You said like The average person sees 3000 commits Is your message the day and your job is to cut trade off and there was a study at the time that was That gave us three days I was in Nova and it was basically for The first few years of my career I was was quite happy with that job description right I like So I wanted to be a professional athlete so I quite Like the contest of trying to try to All the other two 1999 But But then after a while I was like Think about alright but assist was the first aggregating data Well Yeah

David Bent-Hazelwood  05:44

And then you said over the last decades even running you prevent And then be running new citizenship projects So can you give is a flavour of what what a party Within the new citizenship project is which is about was your friend for citizens was about With through for themselves and within three organs So what does it mean In practice to try to stimulate that Got to make that happen

06:08

So the way describe me citizenship We look a lot like a A strategy or or Innovation consultancy already rank consultancy in a lot of ways where we have this We say we say we help organise Asians do stuff better because we think people differently if you think of people as consumed is the only ideas you'll ever Come up with a stuff people buy from your transaction People have with you if you think of people as Citizens you're starting assumption is that people can remember To get involved in the world and shape the world and So the Question and organise She needs to ask is what are we even Doing the world and how can people be part of that and so So I'm really the The Workout Here is a work on AI believe is The work I believe is most important is is how we open the institutions and organisations of our society up to the To get in by behind people and support The fundamental power with the people all and have have always been In trying to express so just to answer your Questions Aren't they on a project So we've done over the years we've done a lot With the National Trust and that's that's I'm aware of my my work Gather and When we add the trust that is about So Well done let's just be a visit attraction business so things out to people and then using the money The proceeds from that to fund conservation But let's think instead about the relationship between in one place and how We can think of ourselves As an organisation as more more really have a mood We'll have people who care about special devices who believe that Beauty matters Give people so things Little Things like we were When I was very heavily involved in the creation of a campaign called 50 things to do before And then three quarters which is really a balance of building the connection between children Nature and and we crowdsource the 50 things and all that Lots of stuff and what's really interest To just illustrates that standard stock contrast the web campaigns was when we started the work which was It was exciting Some marketing campaign called get outdoors With the National Trust's I'm trying to sell outdoor day out to people instead It's like no no put yourself in service of the relationship between people in place before organise and not transact So is that that kind of work So customer Bad taste

David Bent-Hazelwood  08:28

and Just to pull out the One of the threads There is that is Not just that The public is involved at the The end in going out into nature They're also involved in what to do in He in the first place so they brought much more into the process of understand What's going on and deciding what to do

08:50

Absolutely so people People are not consumers to the sold to All The cogs to mobilised people our sources have ideas and energy and resources to be tucked into And I think that's the spirit My favourite example of this work the The bit that I study that really The case study that I took Then in writing the book that is just blew my mind was actually the Taiwanese Government on the way there been operating Particularly through COVID but also before And then there's this the whole approach is one of his One of our basically seeing that The challenge of COVID specifically as a as an National Team Challenge and they've been lovely things like The simplest and most be For example as they sell the phone line With a voicemail recorded by the presence herself where he said As in could ring in with ideas for how they come response could be better And My favourite example is a six year old boy Apparently rang up and said The boys in my class don't want aware that The washing machine face most because they're pink and they think they're girly so So so can you do something to my You need to do something to make pink facemask Cool and we all love baseball so let's do I just finished three days later Apparently a lot three or four days less than they have half the time on the Baseball team on a national press conference with The president in that picture Most I knew so at that time It's a small thing It sounds like kind of trivial but actually read a statement about What can Find work gov years are more kind of subtle See we want to be and and what have People have I mean contrast that here With eat out to help out like The limit of your contribution is is the go to our Restaurant nuts that sort of thing to consumer versus citizen The sort of distinction I would make

David Bent-Hazelwood  10:44

yeah and so a question I asked if ever Everybody who's launching a book Is What What are the strongest Good Faith arguments against She will call thesis and how do respond to them so not just Not people try to be troublemakers but genuinely going Here is a week apart and like And firstly what are those weaker parts and then secondly What is it What's your response to that

11:16

This wasn't in the questions you need moving data Go difficult Sorry I would say So I quit A tough interview the other day I mean I'm in the earliest stages of having some of these discussions One of the Think I think probably The The placed where My Files for this one I hope kind of ducking the question but I think the place we're on I think People Move on And we'll find the things to find these ideas were As challenging is is the start point is is a funding mental belief and keep All right I think There can be no shift to a system cited as one of the I think about consumer consumers still As I call it that the idea of consumerism is it's essentially a kind of psecies level of self hatred constructs Just like we are telling ourselves We are lazy and selfish and we called do it basically and and they are what we have to Do it's the responsibility of a Have a clever few to figure out how to channel the The sort of the the inherent negative tivity of human nature to positive outcomes that's that's what they Consumer story restaurant comm What I'm saying I think the most radical thing about what I'm saying is is not enough Like actually human nature is like we are collaborative kind, caring and empathic crew a tonne of creatures were were fucking good preparing And what we have to do is unlook that I'm getting behind it unleash it and put together One of the one of the hardest sauce in the book was was putting together a really Solid kind of evidence base and all argument for that Thank you That challenge I think is better It is probably the point where Are you To people Will I think I think it's quite feels like we live in a time when It's quite well it can be quite hard to sustain things think humanity I think The that that is a That is a good faith challenge them People will have it's like The evidence that the evidence The country arguing Play is pretty persuasive The way we are When we're making a pretty big Listen the world in a lot of ways And I think so The way I respond So that is to go well Actually that's that Just the story Hey there are two fundamental beliefs I have about Human Nature The first is that we're collaborative empathic good all that sort of thing the second is that we often eventually storage will increase Storytelling and storytelling creatures And what we have done With the consumer stories we've created The story that makes us believe Leave that pursuing our end Visual self interest is actually Right the good thing to do cuz the consumer story is idea that In Your self interest it adds up to collective interests And therefore the right thing to do is To be selfish it's it when you when you when you sort of Say it out loud like that It's astonishing how Orwellian is saying selfishness and selflessness But but actually That is the story and And what I say to people who challenged me on this who like But human life doesn't look like humanity Right Well That's because that's just the story like we We told ourselves that this is the right insulate we allocative status on the basis of This stuff

David Bent-Hazelwood  14:56

i mean and another saying what's your In other words saying what you're saying there is Humans behaviour is situational and contextual So if you give people a call context in which their incentives are If their story about themselves You're only do things if there's no centres if you're greedy And the only way we expressing yourself is true consumption then lo and behold People behave that way but if you give people a different A situation in a different cultural context and they can behave differently I guess that doesn't mean anything about I mean it's interesting you're two examples of it I won and the National Trust Taiwan being an East Asian culture whichever Are we from here in the UK tend to depict as more uniform and putting a higher value on conformity and collective endeavour and then the National Trust has been in the news a little bit Over the last year and accused of work goodness and has been To drone into whole culture war because it In the View have allowed but minor You and has privileged one set of experiences Over the years additional ones in a way So there's There's sort of landmines around all of that but it does imply that behaviour is contextual and If you change the context then you can change the behaviour

Jon Alexander  16:17

Yeah Yeah Just because I know you You You and I both worked in this Have a sustainable business world for quite a long time Nothing just Just a player like Ronnie pounds already micro context there was a person sort of macro analysis The National Trust in its 5 million members and Taiwan and it's 23 million people I think that one of the One of the one of the sorts thought experiments or way or exporting With ways of thinking that I like to offer as You know the classic thing of the People talk about the value action gap The thing where like people claim they want to do I want to buy the sustainable thing In surveys They don't in practice and that means And that's interrupted It's mean that people are actually like they'd like to look nice on surveys but they're actually more selfish Like the iron ore interpretate actually the flip and when you when you think about that Then the idea of time All sales with consumers constantly like that I would argue that People are expressing their genuine preferences and orientations and The surveys But then when you're in a retail environ and whether or not online or offline you're actually at the end The Absolute zenith of consumer price You're in the you're in the peak zone The Thing of the messages The carry the underlying implication The The right thing to do that the moral of introduced to the cow Have a look out for number one so I think it's really interesting when you said Literally this lens of life Where's the Stories showing up and how is it shaping the colour Text How you can how you can actually understand The things that I have With a taken as sort of clip Did some Oceans in very different Raise

David Bent-Hazelwood  17:57

Cool the next one Question is you've sort of described this already it'd be good to just land it is What is the future you're trying to create

18:05

The future I am trying to create  I think is is one So I love phrase all of smell for that any of us that sort of concept of collecting and convergence that's that's in that book trying to create is really one Were like Every government works the way the Taiwanese have been doing Every every every every year NGO works to lay the The National Trust starts to tip and maybe the wave sort of PCUs a headache like Every every business works more like sort of I mean Not every part of because they've done some dodgy stuff bye Do you think Brewdogs are an interesting organisation And I think the Rievrford river The river floods and so unlike Every every industry and organisation of our society sees people are contributors and participants, not just as consumers and builds around Are you Sometimes I think what's underneath this sort of this question maybe it's But what's the change I want I can go on and it can sound like I'm talking about something very diffuse and maybe in some Now I love I love the phrase Social acupuncture It was given to me by a wonderful women called Oracle He's a mentor An advisor of mine and What I think Same with that is that It's not about um There isn't a source Top Down Linear kind of pick picture of the future I'm trying to create And this is why In my work I sort of avoid Talking about Capitalism for example quite Quite the deliberately because I think it's fun like it's probably To talk about capitalism without Then going Post capitalism or whatever and then you're still reading Talking about capitalism Whereas I think if you told him shift from consumers to citizen your actually sort of bringing the locus of control back to us back To hear now and going well if we can start into a story of our selves as citizens it might be The site the systems that we create I get called something else at the end But that sort of We can leave that Later we just let's work on the The Social acupuncture Shifting points the leverage point It's worth the weekend

David Bent-Hazelwood  20:28

So there's a future where people are at invited and seen as crucial for every institute Each and every part is society is inviting people into health To drive and understand what to do decidable And then doing it I mean I'd absolutely agree that Anything that defines itself in In terms of what is known not has not defined itself yet so Post capitalism is still With reference to capitalism are so they ain't good enough we need to do something new So you have that vision rather than that You're trying to create you have the book You have the consultancy I mean what are your priorities for the next few years

21:06

I think the the direction I'm personally heading I mean Irinie and I, my business partner Irinie and I, have always said with but we didn't really imagine we didn't really intend to create Mega lift business Having We In that In that part of that question what I think resale successful Floor is infusing and inspiring all to take on some of our ideas Ways of Working rather than grow Becoming massive ourselves I'd love to see every every brand console See working we have this concept The three P's instead of You know the old four piece Marketing Product Price promotion We talk about the three P's of participatory reorganisations The purpose what you're doing in the world platform Have you created the opportunities for people to be part of it prototype like how do you Build the energy How do you experiment how do you open So so and that So that's that part of the question For me personally I think I'm I think I From in my life the New Citizenship Project has so far at least that It's almost been sort of in some ways a risk Next project to develop these ideas It's been like okay if the question was what would it be I'd like to bring this The energy that goes in circles versus a barrel Bill The Agency assistants the NCP has sort of been a very Cool in some ways I mean it's obviously it's They call huge value in and of itself I don't think I know you Hear this anonymous right here this is diminishing that But that's what it's been I think I'm I Think I'm looking public facing More and more tools for Politics I don't I don't know what exactly that means So I don't I don't think it means A candidate For a party or myself but In mines but i i Guess the reasoning behind that being I think we've seen In the last two years just how important  Those institutions have helped For those Institute's These are and how How formative of the The story of society they are I feel Like unless we Could you mess with them and open them up Then Then then The ever All else follows So Nice I'd also the other person I'm thinking about Like maybe many incidents what are the particularly high leverage intervention was one of the things Doing the book is kind of play with the What a citizen Facebook look like What would I do With a crowd sourced version two with the universal Declaration of Human rights look like that where we are where we will actually felt ownership a bit more to come But I and I'm passionate And if those opportunities open up So but the default Is the is looking towards Looking towards politics and democracy and And asking what really is that Okay This thing I believe today actually really than what I would describe as a consumer-ocracy where our agency  limited to choosing between options Someone else offered Voting is essentially an act of consumption particularly when it's frmaed through self-interest and I'm interested What is a citizen democracy what is what compulsively What is Participant what is deliberate model deliberative democracy but how might these things actually all come together to form a You more dynamic idea of democracy So

David Bent-Hazelwood  24:47

Do you know then this tea Interesting things right cut from that per se a questions but just notes really worn is There's politics and The engagement of people in decision And then being represented or participating The mean the different forms of democracy You have that But there's also state capacity  And What we asked the state to be involve with so there's which in some ways is I mean it's politics but with us OOP is not necessary get selected It's also what we What remit do we give to governments into this State and I think Phil It is In an emergency we asked the state to Step in and there's no state that won't if it can And Like those states Let people start off if there's any kind of democratic pressure that's that's like How Amartya Sen won his Nobel Prize For economics So if we faced The challenges of climate change in particular but other things too That implies that we're going to increase state capacity In order to address them And We're going to increase The role of the but not necessarily from a point where it's very A competent or well run at the Moment Need to do in a way which is Has justice and therefore involves people in the decision instead of being made so there's a need for participant state so there's slight difference within your credit Where you answered the question and in between The politics if you like And then the sort of more that like the Civil Service in the back dynamics of state delivery

Jon Alexander  26:25

Hello I don't want to be seen At fin con a lot more of the thing I made You want to say this I don't think this is necessarily what it was Same but I think I wouldn't necessarily Hello necessarily think that I'm talking about him buys Message expansion of the size of the state line That was the moment when I decided to like I felt like I had To write a book when it felt like a Worst thing to do not to write it and write it and it was like like you actually have to do this now was was when was back in May in May 2010 convey 2020 When the message change from stay home Stay alert The reason for that was like if you remember What was going Go to that time that This sort of surge of mutual aid group Send the surgery and that the NHS The first responder thing and all That was humbling and And the state had kind of got big and heavy with With with us I message and then like retreat Is it completely worth it Stay alert like over Again personal response So let's see and yeah right Let's go Hello I believe there was a moment I believe the citizen you know was surging in that time And I think it's really interesting to go What would it look what would it look like for the state come in behind and enable and offer structure and support so that those things could have taken hold and I think That's what what I mean In Taiwan for example Never had a lockdown so Never have a lot of time yet and he's one It encompasses not to do so so I think there's yeah I agree with you and I think there's there's something Not to Not less than that I want to think about

David Bent-Hazelwood  28:09

Roll Call Okay so then last few coins Students if someone was inspired to Follow your priorities Listening to this What would you What would you suggest they do next Buy the book After they fought Cook Haha I'm ready I think Joyce reviewed it on Amazon then All

Jon Alexander  28:30

right But there's a whole lot that goes into Um I I think to thing so that In a way that the The pathway I set out in the book where you want to the thought process Like firstly What does home mean to you Like the first question on the home Is geographic like home is Homeless You can play a play his own communities where you belong We feel you have a agency where you where you can offer something So I think that's Other places where we live and also the The deal organisations for which we work And then and then leaning into those As a citizen which is which Just switch things around It's first about the expressing your Right agency and stepping up And But at the same time and sort of in a way Perhaps a little corridor Basically it's it's also like encourage others to stay They're agents It says like creating space for others So when that's the word Replace and instal I love the story Talking about To the League of entrepreneurs manhole cover All I have at the moment and the beamer pirate crew or whether it's in your Local communities starting something else I'm particularly interested though in people who are Already in positions of power Stepping into the ride themselves is why What The very end of the book is the idea of big Being an antihero being like no No no indulging The kinds of things they To try and be the Saviour but actually Opening up and and helping people was helping people save himself So I agree with space for us to do it together rather than Toronto Toronto ride to the rescue

David Bent-Hazelwood  30:14

Yeah not the whote knight and then If you're younger self was starting their career now Oh 100 Would you give them

30:22

I think it flips off the back of that last question you know it's like two things the first two things that can occur paradoxical like the first is back yourself Like go for it like you You're on you're onto something Am I The second is raise others I'm live I'm No no what you can't do and No I know that you will never do this all Then like Kill the hero So

David Bent-Hazelwood  30:51

yeah And who Do nominate answer these questions because You admire What they're doing

Jon Alexander  31:01

So many people What is going on could be really interesting is an old man sort of line from from within the avatar The industry actually who I think has has been very Fill up fill in that space and is And it's still sort of working and it's He's just one of the smells Some people I know a guy called Craig Moore's Like people say very interesting stuff To obviously

David Bent-Hazelwood  31:22

wonderful And then finally Is there anything It's important you'd like to say

Jon Alexander  31:28

If this going anywhere Public gaze hungering for us Take a deep The Code citizens in capital letter In a checkout that he got 15% discount so those who live Consumer management

David Bent-Hazelwood  31:41

consume assume in order to then become Yes consume in order to become a citizen to first consider them act Yes wonderful well thanks very much And that brings us to to an end of all interview today You've been listening To David bent John Alexander On asking the question what we do in these powerful tires