What Can We Do In These Powerful Times?
What Can We Do In These Powerful Times?
Charlotte Dufour
Charlottte Dufour is founder of Narayan, a retreat space which followed years of work in humanitarian aid and international cooperation (LinkedIn, Twitter). She is a nutrition expert, having worked in Afghanistan in the early 2000s on child malnutrition before moving to the Food and Agriculture Organisation (a UN agency), where she specialised in Food Security, Nutrition and Livelihoods. She is also a qualified yoga instructor.
The key theme of our conversation was Charlotte's hard-won perspective that challenges we face are invitations to not look for happiness in the fulfilment of our material desires, but to have the wisdom to find the stillness within. From that deep place we can work on what is very important:the quality of relationship between humans, and between humans and nature.
You'll hear me say a couple of times that the perspective can sound fluffy. But if you read Charlotte's book on her time in Afghanistan, then you would know the tough and grounded experiences from which that perspective has grown.
We recorded the interview in early Sep 2022. Worth knowing that Charlotte and I were at university together, and she introduced me to my late wife in 1999.
Links
Listening Inspires, which Charlotte co-founded, "brings together a rich network of individuals committed to inspiring creative solutions to modern-day challenges through deep listening – to ourselves, each other and Nature."
4SD on engaging thousands with Food Systems Summit Dialogues
Powerful Times interview with David Nabarro
Land of Eternal Hope: Ten Years of Lives Shared in Afghanistan, Charlotte's book which tells the story of her time in the country, and also gives voice to her Afghan friends on their stories.
Polly Higgins' Earth is our Business.
Conscious Food Systems Alliance
The Art of Possibility by Zander and Zander
Timings
0:50 - Q1 What are you doing now? And how did you get there?
10:15 - Q2. What is the future you are trying to create, and why?
18:23 Q3. What are your priorities for the next few years, and why?
28:25 - Q4. If someone was inspired to follow those priorities, what should they do next?
31:39 - Q5. If your younger self was starting their career now, what advice would you give them?
33:04 - Q6. Who would you nominate to answer these questions, because you admire their approach?
33:44 - Q7. Is there anything else important you feel you have to say?
More here.
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Thank you for listening! -- David
Hi. Welcome to What can we do in these powerful times, I'm your host, David bent, and I've been working in the field of sustainability and climate change for some 20 years, feels that the need for change is growing faster than the impact we're delivering. So I'm wondering, What can I do next that is useful. Speaking with others, they have that same challenge, which is why I'm doing this interview series in 30 minute bites, I asked some brilliant people what they're doing now and why, or to inspire and enable the audience, which may just turn out to be me through stories grounded in experience. And today, I'm glad to say we're joined by Charlotte do for who's the co founder of listening aspires? Hello, Charlotte. Hello, David. Hello. So first question, what are you doing now? And how did you get here?
Charlotte Dufour:Well, I'm doing quite a few things, David, say sometimes struggled to answer that question. But my background is one of, I would say, specialised in food systems and nutrition. So I've been working about 20 years in those areas of sustainable development, and also humanitarian crises. So I was still involved in that field. But for the last almost seven years, I've been growing, growing deeper into the science of yoga, I'm now a yoga instructor, meditation instructor. And I've been noticing how that practice really helped me address some of the crises of our time. And it's helped me see things differently, work differently, approach things differently. And also, just please, we're happy well, and so for the last seven years now, I've been looking a little bit at this crossroads of personal wellbeing, working on one's awareness, one's consciousness with the field of sustainable development. And so that has taken the form in quite recently, during COVID times of creating an NGO with fellow minded friends, called listening inspires where we promote listening to one's deep self, listening to others listening to nature, as the fundamental for the transformations that we need to see in our societies in our world. So that's one aspect, I still do a bit of consulting, I also do some yoga classes, and I'm creating a retreats and seminars centre with my husband here in Burgundy, where we hope to invite people to listen to nature, think creatively, and regenerate Phil wells, do a variety of practices. So there's a whole array of activities, but some kind of threads that joins them all.
David Bent-Hazelwood:Yeah. And I think it can be easy for people listening to think of yoga and this sort of personal well being and quite fluffy terms. But I happen to know quite a lot of your career history. So you're in effect, your one of your first jobs was child malnutrition in Afghanistan. So I think might be useful just to give people that sort of grounding in all of that, when you say you have this background in malnutrition, or sort of in food systems, and sustainable development, you've got some pretty gritty experiences. So it's worth just unpacking those. I'm interested in how those then connect through to where you are today.
Charlotte Dufour:It's true. I started my career with the emergency nutrition programmes in Afghanistan, we vaccinate against hunger. And that was the first time I went there was during the Taliban regime. And so we were really on on pure in management of acute malnutrition. And I was feeling very frustrated then that we couldn't address some of the more underlying chronic challenges of drought and, and education and, and, and the social dynamics. But then I was very fortunate to go back to Afghanistan many, many times and live there are several years between 2002 and 2010. So the first time I went there was 2000. And there I got very deep in the field of agricultural development and multi sectoral coordination for improving nutrition and access to healthy, nutritious, affordable foods. So yes, there was a lot of hands on work, working across sectors health, education, environment, labour, Social Affairs, women's affairs. And so I it was an incredibly fascinating time working with Afghan people was incredibly inspiring. The countries is very rich, very diverse. I also had a little bit of anthropology in my studies, toolbox. And so that also the social dynamics, there were key. I was then given the opportunity to bring some of that expertise and continue learning in Sub Saharan Africa being based for seven years in the headquarters of the Food and Agriculture Organisation where I spent three years with them in Afghanistan. And so continued this kind of work on building bridges across sectors in Sub Saharan Africa, and looking at how can we bring in a focus on nutrition and health within agriculture policies, how can we help people from very different disciplines and backgrounds work together so that people can be better nourished And that's also why I'm where I'm at today. Because in this process of bringing sectors together, of helping people who see things differently, understand things differently work together, the human element is very key, there's a very important part four, empathy and understanding where a person is. And now, the term Food Systems has become very fashionable. And we're all talking about the senior systemic approaches. I mean, we weren't using those terms, then. But that's very much what we were doing is looking at the issue of food from multiple perspectives. And so that's where I started really enjoying more and more like, a lot of my job, if I look retrospectively would be called facilitation. And, and so that's when I started, for personal reasons, the practice of yoga and meditation, which allowed me to be much more grounded, to be much more self aware of my feelings of my thoughts. And to, it would help me more be more present with a group, for example, be more attentive to what is not being said, but is maybe being felt. I also had the chance to be exposed to facilitators, professional facilitators who were coming to FAO, and I'm like, wow, you know, I want to do what they're doing. I could see. I could see them or I think you've also interviewed David Navarro. And like, see also how he was. And we were collaborating, on on the work on multi sectoral collaboration for nutrition. And I could see the magic that comes from somebody sensing where people are, and helping them come closer together. So yeah, that's that's the link. And yes, the yoga can sound quite fluffy, but actually something very, very concrete. You apply in terms of awareness of your own body and your own emotions and your own feelings and learning to calm the mind. So that you can concentrate better. And it's very helpful for dealing with complex challenges, to have that ability to calm the mind so that you can let your intuition and your deeper wisdom come through to help find Okay, how are we where's the thread I can pull to start unravelling this very big ball of wool that's completely entangled. That's how it comes together,
David Bent-Hazelwood:completely entangled and can often feel completely overwhelming. I mean, I'm thinking I mean, that period you're describing about being in Afghanistan, that was a period of conflict. And that is what I said is gritty experiences. And I forgot, I'm apologise, I forgotten the name of the book that you wrote, which gave people stories from your afghan friends, they're sort of life stories to illustrate just what was going on. And also the that book illustrates, your interest in people aren't getting them to that empathy that you're talking about, as well.
Charlotte Dufour:Yes, that's the book, I published it in French it was a Amity Afghan, for Afghan friendships came out in 2011, and in English, land of eternal hope, 10 years of lives shared in Afghanistan. And I indeed, tell the story of how it was to be an aid worker during the first Taliban regime and and throughout the years of reconstruction until 2010, but also interviewed seven Afghan friends, women and men who tell their life story to 30 or 40 years of war. And through their stories, you really get a sense of the complexity of the situation in country and the difficulty of you know, it's not black or white, there's not like the nice JD in the bedroom with a demon than the Taliban. I mean, it's it's much more nuanced than that. And, and so and also, in terms of the relationships between men and women, you can see that it's much more subtle. And so I that was really a nice thing. And it's been very, very painful. That whole part of my life came back to the fore last summer with the Taliban takeover. And these friendships, in a way, started a new chapter I was very much in touch with women, nice friends, and I still am. Many have God reach safety. Some are still incredibly difficult situations. But actually, that's inspired a new book I'm working on, which is precisely on this theme of compassion and empathy. And how can one stay positive, joyful, hopeful when being in touch with with intense suffering, and so that whole theme of how can we cultivate healthy compassion? How can we work from a space of love and joy? In the face of immense challenges, be them environmental or societal. So that's the current work in progress. Moving Beautiful journey, I also interviewing people who are involved in solidarity in various ways and that they can, multiple all of us are involved in compassion paid for taking care of an elderly person responding to another new you which exchange.
David Bent-Hazelwood:So that perhaps takes us on to the second question about what is the future you're trying to create, and why.
Charlotte Dufour:I think I've learned throughout these years that what's most important is, or what is very, very important is the quality of relationship between humans and between human nature. We can focus on solving material problems, right. So for example, as a nutritionist, my main focus was okay, how can people eat well, or you can think how do people access clean water? And how do they get better jobs. And, you know, a lot of the Sustainable Development Goals are around achieving this material well being. But what I found over the years is when you solve one problem, you immediately have another one coming. Right. So Afghanistan under the Taliban first regime, there was not an issue of training teachers, because there were no schools, right? So then great array schools are built, oh, my gosh, where are the teachers? And so people were often I was often the most positive one in the room in Afghanistan, because we're like, oh, this is not working. There's no teachers or the clinics are crap, and the health care is not good enough. And I'm like, five years ago, that was not an issue. I am so happy we have to deal with this issue. Right? Yeah. But it shows that I mean, if, if material will be where the source of happiness, maybe people in France would be happier than people in Kenya, or Afghanistan, and yet, I hear a lot of complaining around. So what I think is really key is that issue of inner peace, and harmonious and so that's why that's why listening inspired there, it's really about let's let's look for the joy within. And that's also where the science of yoga is all about. Yoga is not just breathing techniques, and stretching into downward facing dog. Joga is a science to find the joy, but then that's what it's about. And in that perspective, every challenge you face in life, is an invitation to not look for happiness in the fulfilment of your material desires, but to have the wisdom to find the happiness, the joy within that stillness within. And that's where there's a richness of the Oriental teachings being Buddhism being yoga. And I think we're at a great time where the different spiritual currents, each with their own wisdom, can come together and that coherence, and that's what it's about. So that's why I'm really interested on that link between the personal grounding personal consciousness. And I think once you work at that level, a certain magic starts to operate. And, and things in the material sphere also start being smoother. And so I think that's why we're being challenged, for example, with the climate. If I if I were to interpret retrospectively challenges of the 20th century, some of the world wars through dealing with things like slavery and racism and apartheid, it's as if humanity was learning that every single human life on Earth is sacred, regardless of race, and genocide is a crime. And now, it's okay. We're, we haven't fully learned that there's a long way to go. But it's like, okay, next class. It's not just every human life that is sacred. It's every aspect of life, be it a birdstone tree. And well, if, if it takes burning down hundreds of acres of forest for humans to learn that lesson, maybe that's what we're being, you know, so I have that's what gives me hope. I think the crises what we're seeing is a lesson to learn to value that sacredness of life. And at the same time, try to sense those other dimensions that are not at the material sphere. Where, where there is a species there is a support mentalists even when
David Bent-Hazelwood:there's some that a little bit because it's quite a difficult thing to understand. It's quite ironic posture and I don't mean irony in a sort of funny sense, but just a deeply complex ambivalent, sort of, almost counter intuitive position of saying, So, we are currently abusing nature. I usually am for you that I mean, if I heard you, right, and you can, this will be your chance to correct me because I remember if I heard you right, it was this is a great opportunity for learning and growth as as like, both individually. And as a, as you said, humanity, I would prefer societies plural, because I don't I'm not sure there's a singular, like, one out there, but the that we are. We're challenging the basis of our ability to exist as complex societies so much, that we're going to force ourselves to learn that all not only is all human life sacred, but all of nature's sacred, and out of that learning will come. A better performing society, and obviously some next challenge, because we won't run out of challenges. So Is that Is that a fair way of describing what you just said?
Charlotte Dufour:I, yes, somehow, I think the idea is, we've been really taking grant, we've been taking nature for granted, granted, and using as a as a tool as a thing at our disposal to improve our comfort, and, you know, our little desires, some of them flimsy, you know, we added at the expense of a great distraction. And, and I think when these things that were put in motion in where we were basically not respecting nature, and having a very human centric approach to life led us to destroy, the level of destruction is becoming so clear, so huge, so immense, I mean, many people, many environmentalists have been calling me alerts, you know, 50 years ago, 60 years ago. So, but they were not being heard. And so we've had to allow that, that approach to unfold at a such a scale, that we are now seeing the six Max, mass extinction and so on. But I, and that's helping a greater proportion of human societies and individuals to say, wait a minute, this is wrong. This is just wrong before they were not saying this is wrong. You know, there's so there's an increasing awareness that I see it and I believe in, I was very inspired by Polly Higgins book on Earth is our business has been this amazing lawyer who will defend it and set forth the case for Ecocide being recognised as against humanity. So what a lot of these thoughts are inspired by her book, and that's where she wrote, It took the genocide, to have journalists that did the genocide of World War Two to have genocide recognised as a crime. And the reverse of the crime is the right that it underpins the right to life. Yeah. And so he's now taking that parallel and saying, Okay, it's it's taking the sixth mass extinction and massive destruction and climate change before us to realise that Ecocide is a crime. Yeah. And so that's the evolution I am seeing.
David Bent-Hazelwood:And there's a parallel or very closely aligned thing there about it was after the Second World War, that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights was created, in part as a response to that destruction and terrible suffering. So the next question is about priorities and maybe worth picking these up like, element by element of what you're up to. So let's talk firstly, about listening inspires, what are the priorities for next few years for listening inspires?
Charlotte Dufour:It's a good question, because we're, we've been, we've been asking ourselves that and we've been we had ambitions, you know, for example, one activity we have is listening to the earth. It's a campaign which promotes moments of mindful connection to the earth during key political events, like cops. And we've done a few things, we have a lot of meditation on lines and the invitation there is to it's not just to have a little moment of meditation, and that's it, you know, it's really an invitation to shift one's position in relationship to nature, really, to see, okay, there's a much greater wisdom in nature that our little brains can even start to understand our science nearly describes that it's not invented. So we need to shift mode and and be humble and listen to that wisdom. So that's, that's the idea behind this invitation. And so, I think we're listening inspires is basically to keep spreading the word when friends said the power of your name is that the message you're trying to convey is emanating, so simply hearing the name of the organisation isn't itself Something that helps. And so we are wanting to spread that invitation, and including through podcasts writing, or writing or writing and, and offerings. And one thing we've decided ourselves to do is to apply it to our own planning is not plan too much ourselves, but see what opportunities come to us so that we can respond to needs. For example, last year, we were invited in university to do a couple of hours on listening with these master level students. And then which was the Masters on sustainability. And we talked about the importance of listening for sustainability and social innovation. It was a very powerful moment for all the students, and they were saying, we're not taught to listen in our curriculum. So I'm hoping more opportunities will come and I'm curious what they'll be. So that's one priorities, keep on that message, passing that message of listening, because I think it's, it's, it's very key for the shift in consciousness and approach in relationships, whether it's human. Also, in the policy debate, this could really listen, there's so much polarisation right now. There's so much judgement, there's so much people taking the moral high ground with one another. There's so much fear. And all of that makes for a very, very chaotic, and it's difficult to address challenges when there's that chaos, it's an invitation to stop and listen, I think is very, very key for the transition.
David Bent-Hazelwood:Right? So I mean, there's a combination there of keeping on listening, spreading the word of listening, and also listening to the opportunities that come out. In a way there's the not not planning specifics, but planning to be responsive. So that's listening inspires. So then what about the book, then? what's what? So you're writing the book is a priority? What is it? What's the, what are you hoping that having the book will lead?
Charlotte Dufour:When the book is, I'm hoping will help. For that first one, I started writing it I was thinking of people working in solidarity, like humanitarian aid workers, or environmental activists who are burning out, you can be overwhelmed by the task I have been, and I still regularly AM. And so it's showing this reflections of how can be how can we be more resilient in our compassion and our empathy? And how can we act in from a space of joy? So I share a lot of, of this reflections on you know, the pitfalls of empathy, the wounds of empathy and, and how to, and also, the negative traits of misplaced solidarity or when you start taking over control of another person's life by cleaning to help them and that kind of stuff, but then, okay, how can I? What are the things I can improve? How can I be humble? How can I be grounded? How can I nourish myself so that I can keep giving. So I hope that helps people who are already engaged in these kinds of works, where they're already giving a lot of themselves. And then that, that can all of us at any many levels, and also for those who might be afraid to give more, because they're like, I can't, that's too much for me, I can't deal with that level of suffering. I don't want to see the refugees that are camping on my streets. I don't want to talk to them, because that's just too much for me to handle. So I'm kind of hoping that also because I'm interviewing friends who work in refugees or with health care, healthcare, or psychologists or journalists, they can hear these stories and it can give people a greater desire to.
David Bent-Hazelwood:So I mean, there's a hoping that the book will help people themselves to be more resilient as we grow our resilient capacity. What else is there there's the retreat centre. What are the priorities of the retreat centre?
Charlotte Dufour:Fantastic, David, you're helping me do my yearly planning. My priorities? This is super helpful. Yeah, the retreat centre. So yeah, I was telling you that the stones have started moving after two and a half years of paperwork and planning. And hopefully so we will be renovating this barn here in Bergen County, to welcome retreats for we're not too far from Geneva. So we're thinking of all these NGOs and humanitarians or UN agencies that are two hours down the road can come and, you know, do their team meetings and a place that embodies the principles they're working with and being inspired by nature. It's also a great place for yoga and spiritual retreats, but also for arts and music. So We'll again, we're creating the space. And we'll see what happened in that space. I really believe the land here had also like chose us, you know, chose us to come my sense. We also built a nature theatre, we have a, we planted an orchard and we're going to keep planting this food forest. I really see it as a cooperation with the land. And so that's why this one is burgundy yours a very rich area, there's some sort of yeah, a lot of spirituality. We're very close to Tizi, which is a fantastic Christian retreat, where you have a lot of singing. Europe's Europeans and people coming from all over. So it's very close to Clooney, where it was one of the centre of Christianity in mediaeval times. So European before you even existed as a concept. So we'll see.
David Bent-Hazelwood:Is there is there are there any other strands that we should pick up out of your priorities we've got?
Charlotte Dufour:Well, I'm I've started this interesting work as a part time consultant with the conscious food systems Alliance, which is an alliance hosted by the United Nations Development Programme
David Bent-Hazelwood:was that first word, the consciousness
Charlotte Dufour:conscious food systems Alliance. And I was so enthused by that being, I mean, just the snow. And that's exactly when when you read their website, it was almost the same words, as on our listening inspires website. Looking at the connections with feathers in nature is fundamental to transforming our food systems for them to be more sustainable and equitable. So you can imagine when I saw that I'm like, Oh, my gosh, there's, there's many of us thinking this way. So a meeting Runtastic network of NGOs, researchers, activists from all over the world. And we're just figuring out what this can mean in practice. But I'm, I'm, I'm realising. So for example, I'm in touch with our teams in Costa Rica and Peru, through this work, how listening, again, is going to be central to that work of consciousness and changing our relationship to the environments that provide us food to the way we share food. distributed, so.
David Bent-Hazelwood:And so that's wonderful. And on to our next question, I guess I just want to acknowledge, because the next question is about what someone should do if they are inspired by these priorities. And I think it's worth rehearsing just how your journey from the sort of technocrat I'm slightly caricaturing but the technocrats work. There's a basis there. And there's a set of experiences of on the ground and with people in terrible situations often. So this the priorities you have now of compassion, listening at inner peace and shift in perspective, being the basis of then living differently, and in a better relationship with other people in the world and nature. They're not, as I say, they're not these fluffy, nice to haves, they come rooted and grounded in some particulars there. So if someone was inspired to follow these priorities, what should they do next?
Charlotte Dufour:I think the two elements are very important. I think it's important to be very grounded and concrete, and build your experiences where you are, and you know, what life puts in your way. I see a lot of youth, for example, we're getting into, you know, they're straight out of university, and they, they want to become a consultant on on an hour or facilitator of group dynamics and creative thinking. And I think that's, that's great, and they should have that aspiration. But it's very important not to jump to fast the phases of yourself confronting yourself with very concrete challenges of reality. It's just like when we had interns coming to do their internship in the FAO headquarters, with my former boss and myself, and we will always say okay, now you go to the field, like we do not, you know, and then my colleagues and in countries, you know, from Africa or when I would come in and do some, what we call backstopping visits. They're like, Oh, you've been in the field. And they could really tell the difference between those that have come from your internship to their junior consultancy and headquarters. And so I think it's very important to be and that that can that can take many, many different shapes. There's no value judgement or prioritisation of what that can be, but the experience doing things on the ground and especially the human relationships and the human interactions around that, because that's that's where a lot of the challenges usually lie. That's one part don't, don't burn the steps. Take your time and and trust that whatever it is you're doing. You are building up skills, knowledge, reflexes in your attitudes that will help you grow in faith next challenges. And this other one is, I think it is important to take time for some inner listening inner work from meditation, being from Tai Chi be in prayer, or whatever your your background is, but or there's so many tools right now in terms in the field of psychology or personal well being in personal development. Do that journey of inner awareness, because then you're much more able to truly listen without projecting and stuff like that. So and being open to what comes. When I left my job in a field five, five years ago, I took a time where I just prioritised meditation. And I just was really there's a thing in yoga is Karma Yoga is achieving union through action and us basically acting without attachment to the results of your action, and acting as channel for something greater than yourself. And so I tried to play that. And, well, the opportunities that came were far better than the ones that I could have ever dreamed of. So I'm gonna let the universe do the planning for me. There's a lot more creativity than my little self could ever dream of. Again, keeping, nurturing and keeping those channels open is very key.
David Bent-Hazelwood:Excellent. So this builds on that, in a way, the great question, if your younger self was starting their career now, what advice would you give them? Perhaps on top of the things you were just talking about? What else is there to say? What would you say to your younger self?
Charlotte Dufour:I would, I would say, trust life, or I think one thing I'm grateful for my younger self, my younger self, found itself in front of crossroads, often had very short notice. And took decisions on the gut and heart feeling, not on the mind feeling. And especially, you know, the road less travelled by. And I didn't think I just went for it. And that's how I ended up in Afghanistan. I mean, I had no idea I would go to Afghanistan. And then one day at the coffee machine, the lady from Action Against Hunger said, Oh, would you like to go to Cabo? And I'm, like, took a sip of coffee. I'm like, Oh, I hadn't thought about that. Okay, yep. And that determined the rest of my life. And I think trust your heart, trust your gut. Don't overthink it. And there's, there's never, there's never a wrong turn. Because it's all about learning anyway.
David Bent-Hazelwood:Yeah. And who would you nominate, ask these questions because you admire their approach and what they're doing.
Charlotte Dufour:Many people, I feel fortunate, I think there's so many amazing people on this planet. I mean, the one that first came to mind, you already know, the host has been, who I admire greatly, because she has so much life experience, and at the same time with so much humility. So she's somebody who has been often operating in the background of things, but has immense vision. So
David Bent-Hazelwood:wonderful. Thank you. And then just finally, is there anything else important you feel you want to say?
Charlotte Dufour:Thank you for this series, I think, priorities people, we need to be creating a new narrative and seeing what the opportunities for growth are. That was the theme of the last blog I wrote, inspired by the book, you recommended the artist possibility. I think we have a very challenging times. But that's because they're meant to be very creative times. And so this kind of series of this is a really great gift.
David Bent-Hazelwood:Thank you. And I mean, part of the point of the series is to help me explore and one of the things you've given us over the last, what are we at now, almost 35 minutes, is just how much you have been exploring from that brave, I would say decision to go to Afghanistan in the early 2000s. And all of those different turns and choices you made, which will lead you now to the point of prioritising help people generate the compassion and the relationships with themselves with others with nature, that they need to flourish and that others will need if more of us have those kinds of relationships and will flourish and there will be so it's just a very inspirational story. With all the specifics so thank you very much to Charlotte and we'll be back next time
