Helen Henderson

Helen Henderson is a Commissioner of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission (NIHRC), combined with a long history of community education in Derry/Londonderry.

We explored Helen's work on peacebuilding and non-violence. For instance, how do you build peace between communities that have been in conflict for decades? Two things: spaces to discover common humanity; and growing critical literacy.

My reflection is that I've not had to worry about security. But that's a privilege others haven't had. And how important that work is, because so much else relies on feeling secure.

Links

Educating the Heart programme from Children in Crossfire, aims to "nurture compassion and emotional literacy alongside critical thinking and critical literacy".

Ethical and Shared Remembering at The Junction. "Ethical remembering will mean asking critical and ethical questions about violence, change, justice and peace in the context of the present and desired shared future. One hundred years on there will be no ethical remembering without remembering the future, and without an ethical and concrete commitment to building it together."

Timings

0:50 - Q1 What are you doing now? And how did you get there?

3:23 - BONUS QUESTION. Can you give us some examples of the peace-building work you have been involved with?

7:15 - BONUS QUESTION. How do you build peace between people whose families and communities have been in conflict for literally decades?

15:15 - BONUS QUESTION. What does a trauma-informed approach mean?

18:31 - Q2. What is the future you are trying to create, and why?

21:35 - Q3. What are your priorities for the next few years, and why?

24:59 - Q4. If someone was inspired to follow those priorities, what should they do next?

29:30 - Q5. If your younger self was starting their career now, what advice would you give them?

31:45 Q6. Who would you nominate to answer these questions, because you admire their approach?

33:55 Q7. Is there anything else important you feel you have to say?

Themes and quotes

- The role of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission is to hold the state to account or duty bearers to count on who they are, they uphold the human rights of people in Northern Ireland.

-Future trying to create: 

• "I am recommitting myself to peace and non violence at this time, not just because of Northern Ireland and Ireland, but what's going on the world. Feeling that sort of the simplicity and language and binary kind of stuff going on around wars is very much alive."
• Also, amplifying some of the hidden voices that haven't been heard. It's also time to facilitate the people with the voices that are silent, especially from the woman sector. It has been the woman have been on the ground and in the communities holding the fort. But generally, I've heard that voice in an official or political level.

More here

Twitter: Powerful_Times

Website hub: here.

Please do like and subscribe, to help others find the podcast.

Thank you for listening! -- David

Transcript

David Bent-Hazelwood: 0:09

Welcome to What can we do in these powerful times? I'm your host, David bent, and I've been working in the field of sustainability and climate change for some 20 years, feels that the need for change is growing faster than the impact we're delivering. So I'm wondering, What can I do next that is useful and speaking to others, they're having the same challenge, which is why I'm doing this interview series. In 30 minute bites, I asked some brilliant people what they're doing now and why, or to inspire and enable the audience, which may just turn out to be me through stories grounded in experience. I'm delighted to say today we're joined by Helen Henderson, who works in community education and is a Northern Ireland Human Rights Commissioner. Hello, Helen.

Helen Henderson: 0:49

Hello, Dave.

David Bent-Hazelwood: 0:51

And so, what are you doing now? And how did you get here?

Helen Henderson: 0:56

Well, and when people ask what I do, it's always like the million dollar question, because I don't think my family you know, the best kept secret. So. So yeah, currently, I work part time as a commissioner with Northern Human Rights Commission, which is a really lovely rule. It's like a leadership role. But it's also, you know, a chance to influence policy and change within, but then the Northern Ireland context. I also, my background always says using community for its second type of education is non formal. So working with community groups, working with training teachers and youth workers on a programme called educating the heart. Which is really lovely programme about social change and how we bring up social teams and care for ourselves and others. Yeah, and generally, I work freelance. So I spend a lot of time in the peace sector here in Northern Ireland, Logan. And I sort of hopped out of that there for a while, but I find myself hopping back and did it Yeah, some start. Actually, starting with an organisation this week, and do a call to junction. We do a lot of really like, a lot of work around ethical remembering, but also, you know, how you remember the past without jeopardising the future. But also looking at, you know, Northern Ireland hoping, hoping promote peace and non violence. Yeah, so it's all it's a very mixed bag and generally go like it worked freelance as well. So generally go when people ask me to do different bits and bobs of work, it takes me into all sorts of areas, which, luckily enough, I work with lovely people and lovely programmes, you know, most of the time, so

David Bent-Hazelwood: 2:59

thank you. And so let's unpack some of those different things. Starting with the the peacebuilding. I mean, people will be familiar with at least the outline of the story of Northern Ireland, and that there has been an agreement since 1998. I think it was. But there's also many decades, if not centuries, from before that, what what's the give us some examples of some of the peacebuilding that you've been involved with? So we can we can understand what that really means.

Helen Henderson: 3:30

Yeah, no, it's a good question. I think, you know, sometimes the peace work at different levels. So my most of my work has been at the community grassroots level, things around, you know, generally communities, there's still communities that are level and conflict and ordinary, not, you know, the net result at the end of the night, the Good Friday Agreement, so it hasn't gone away. But you know, things are much better, but it hasn't gone away. But but also it started, as you rightly say, long before what we labelled as the troubles, you know, that sort of has its roots in the colonial past or an extract of past. And so part of my role, in some ways is around education. Promoting critical literacy, helping us understand and unpack some of the messages we get and understand where we are today. And there's a lot of language around, peacebuilding people talk about the legacy of the troubles, you know, it's taken me about 20 years to figure out what that really means. But the legacy is hold on packs today in people's lives, through trauma and not just the people but also our natural world as well. Suits. Yeah, so some of the practical stuff on the ground would be like recently, I've been working with different women's groups, and these women have been directly impacted themselves, either lost family during the troubles or they themselves elsewhere, I'm injured around packed. And so it's kind of a trauma informed approach, because you know, it's very work, it has to be very careful. But it's also exploring their sense of agency and what they generally lose to those women want to make a difference in the community. They're very active on the community. And so it's really supporting that kind of sustainable change making the way, you know, silicon of human rights. So we're going on the human rights education in terms of what are the rights that are engaged in this moment? Or what's your example could be hosted on? It could be health, it could be all sorts of areas. It could be legacy in terms of relative investigation, you know, for their loved ones, and then starting to look at how do they sustain themselves on those actions. So a lot of them have been campaigning for decades, you know, let's exhaust them or re-traumatising. And it's so strange to think about that, like stealing that type of actor doesn't want to hurt yourself, you know, so. So it's really a lot of that education work and kind of binds together these threads of human rights and information used to the knowledge was also the sort of emotional resilience, a lot of social action traders change happen, how do we how can we be involved? And so it's, it's really not a black and white curriculum. And I adapted to the groups that I work with. So depending on where people are coming from,

David Bent-Hazelwood: 6:36

and it must be very, I mean, must be very, it must be very difficult, because, I mean, it's not a black and white curriculum. But for some people, it must, I imagine, I don't know, I imagined that they have a black and white view of the world. inherited from that conflict? I mean, you just said Derry. Some people call it Londonderry. And for some, there's even a black and white about what to call particular places, quite apart from how to treat each other. How do you I mean, if it is true that some people are approaching things in a black and white way, and you're trying to help them to step out of that? I mean, how do you how do you build peace between people who have been they in their families and their community has been in conflict for literally decades?

Helen Henderson: 7:23

Yeah. And that's, it think it's about two things, I think it's about common humanity. So people start to see the humanity and other people that will see may be coming from different sides, they actually have a very similar story, because they've been impacted in ways that other people haven't been. So I think that the human connection, when we can see that and see somebody else's suffering and empathise with that, is that you do find that through, you know, one of the projects at the junction work on us around storytelling, and people sharing their stories. And so, you know, that space, creating those conditions, where that can be done safely, and you can create this, you know, this dialogue is really important. But I also think it's also about critical literacy, because things aren't black and white. And if there was ever a human history word, we're getting these vague, over simplified messages, and these vai and also the language of war, it's very much alive. No, you know, and so, you know, what's what's gonna happen on across the world. So the language of war is a very simplistic awesome them winners, losers, you know, so maybe that's part of the education piece is starting to unpack that and think what is really going on here, who doesn't make this we're being told where they come from, who are the winners who are the losers. And you can do that in a slightly detached way. You know, a lot of this works fake personal as well. But, you know, these tools that we have, some are the methodologies that are participative and democratic, I think are really important at this moment in time for everybody. But without our own context in Northern Ireland, you know, my I grew up in Delhi and I grew up you know, the way schools were seen as a Protestant Unionists loyalist background, they would have been predominantly Catholic and and it's funny because some of my family would say London day, but most of them don't mostly but loving. We were to offer having great long term day if you're writing a letter, you'll see. So, but I probably repelled just probably three teenage thrombus but you know, as I get a bit older, you will start to relate again to the guy didn't have very much of a rich history until mid 30s. You know, actually legally ignorant to the pre troubles come, you know, context that I'm really only learned and applied. The last decade. So I think that's important as they are, you start to see, because this doesn't come from nowhere doesn't happen. So understanding the context is important too. So.

David Bent-Hazelwood: 10:12

And then the other thing I would just wanted to pick up, because I don't really know what it does. And, and so I'm interested in what it does, and also what you try to do with it if you like, but being a Northern Ireland Human Rights Commissioner, what does that mean? And you mentioned it was a way to try to influence policy. So what are you trying to do with it?

Helen Henderson: 10:30

Yeah, so it's a good question. I admit anything's different things for different people. So for me, I think what it means for me is, suppose way, my hi I ended up there was through a process called woman under public life, which was really encourage women to go for public appointments, or elected rules. So so I kind of came on, I think I'll have a sort of gendered pass, if you don't like me, it was a real big push. And I was very lucky to be supported on that push. And that's probably the main reason I'm here today, although is probably wouldn't be but but in terms of the commission itself, it was born out of the Good Friday Agreement. And to protect the rights of people in Northern Ireland, and it has different types of rights and there, so we have the Human Rights Act in the UK, then we were afforded special rights because of because of the conflict. So there's certain rights in there around identity knew that we can be British Irish, I can be British and Irish. So these dual nationality provisions. So there's sort of social and cultural rights are antiquated through the Good Friday Agreement. And basically, they're the role of the commission is to hold the state to account or duty bearers to count on who they are, they uphold the human rights of people in Northern Ireland. So it's Facebook, Suffolk. So what that looks like on a sort of weekly basis, um, it's a part time rule. And we're a group of commissioners. So we're five commissioners with the Chief Commissioner. And we're all different backgrounds. So generally, what happens is we get sometimes cases come through the commission. So an individual can take a case. So if someone has had a specific human rights breach or issue, then they come to the commission. So for example, if data was taken extracted off their phone without the consent, or the you know, they were discriminated against in terms of housing, or some of those issues, they'll come to the commission, and then the commission work quite closely with their quality commission, they'll decide if that's the case, that's kind of breach of human rights, and then they'll start to kind of take action. But then there's also the bigger stuff, so governmental, like, for example, the human rights, or the the bill of rights that the UK Government were proposing that the monarchs seriously undermines the Human Rights Act, then that will come through the commission, and they'll they'll take it apart and think, and advise government to say this is this is against the law, you breaching the law in these parts and and then if the government proceeds to do that, then they take the government to court. So one of the big high profile cases of banality in Northern Ireland is around reproductive rights, abortion. So the Commission, the northern Human Rights Commission, have taken the British government to court because we haven't had our own assembly, we haven't had our own government for a while, so they've taken the British government to court a couple of times, and that's an ongoing case. So that's the taxes as a commissioner, you get to influence how everything's freedom was done, the human rights can have legislation, but there was influence in terms of how you do things. And also what I think they bring is just always bring in a gender lens, but also like a trauma informed approach. So when you start to look at if you're looking at those around, you know, domestic abuse or sexual violence and those those areas that you know, it's really important that human rights lawyers and people working in that field understand trauma and how that unfolds and in a courtroom or those type of scenarios. So yeah, so I feel like those are the things they bring along with the grassroots community voice because they work and everybody a lot of the commissioners or maybe from a legal justice background. Yeah. So it's good just to have an x that's really like yes, we're having a mix of people on your on your board. Yeah.

David Bent-Hazelwood: 14:58

I mean, new sounds is fascinating and stressful and important, and exposing and a whole bunch of things all at the same time. And one thing, I wonder if you could unpack for us just a tiny bit more about what does a trauma informed approach mean? So trauma as a lens, it's been gaining currency. But that doesn't mean that I honestly know what that means. What is the trauma informed approach me

Helen Henderson: 15:30

may not mean that I know what it means either. But the trauma informed approach is really, I suppose, when you look at the example of someone who needs support, and help he has had their human rights breached, and whatever we, you know, if someone has a photo case of domestic abuse, or if they go to seek help, then the service that they sometimes seek help from can reach traumatise them again, and again and again, in the process. So that's one of the one of the things we're trying for approaches, creating safety. And that's really important for people so. So it's really making sure that people are listening to you and they're believed and, you know, it's it's also understanding trauma memory. So when trauma, trauma memory is very different to normal memory so far was a different part of Imbrium. So there's kind of a neuroscience part of it in terms of, you know, so many is given to happens to quarterback, something very traumatic, it's, it's very often not on a chronological timeline, because the sort of international brain doesn't recognise time. So, so they may it may be all different order or mixed up, or, you know, so there's and, and yeah, so there's, there's things like that, that are veiling schools sometimes didn't know, but a human rights lawyer doesn't know that and there was taken less persons all over the place or their storage doesn't make sense. It doesn't add up, you know, so there's ways of working with people that first responders like police are those type of rules, even GPS or they know how to suppose create CFD and build up a relationship of trust. As well as they help someone eventually tell the story. The person may not ever tell their story and that's okay to sister by choice choices each partner but keep other people safe. So, yeah, that's, that's on a very small, it's a huge area of work, of course. And I think sometimes, I think there's lots of looming ism research coming out at the moment, the range of that we didn't, we didn't know the body, you know, a lot of those publications and, you know, the Body Keeps the Score, like I think that's from an organisation perspective, but I see in the community levels that so many women have been keeping the peace and, and loving and communities and still suffer violence. So have autoimmune disease, you know, hugely fibromyalgia and autoimmune disease is, you know, more than likely, a response to trauma and transgenerational trauma passed down through the generations. So it's a huge area for sure. Yeah. It's good that people are about more natural to pilots, especially people in important roles.

David Bent-Hazelwood: 18:31

Yeah. Wonderful. Thank you for that. So then on to the second sort of official question, what is the future you're trying to create? We all have this great work what is it pointing towards?

Helen Henderson: 18:46

I think it's a myself increasingly the personal or professional for me is the common this disk discrete, the become more kind of connected, which, which I welcome, I suppose it brings an intensity to it, but the future thank, I suppose we recommit myself to peace and non violence you know, at this time, not just because of Northern Ireland and Ireland, but what's going on the world. Feeling that sort of the simplicity and language and binary kind of stuff going on around Wars is very much alive. And I feel that that suddenly danger. And so, I've and as a person, I very much I'm not judgmental, normally. So I think like, professionally personally, it's it's an area that I'm, I'm interested in because essentially we all want a future for our kids. It's peaceful and it's non violent and the well being of my kids is dependent on the safety and well being of your kids and older kids. You know, it's all interconnected. That sense that interdependence, so critical with an education work. So thank you sense a peaceful nonviolent futures a definite a definite area of you know, the future that I want to play a part. And as well as amplifying some of the hidden voices that haven't been here by myself, you know, notice some whose voices are silent and who's very vocal. And I feel like it's also time for the people with the voices that are silent, to facilitate those voices in a way. And so I see that through the woman sector, for example, you know, in Northern Ireland, you know, gentlemen, our last 3040 years the woman have been on the ground and the communities holding the fort. But generally, I've had a voice that haven't had much of an offensive voice, a political level. And that's very much the case in terms of how decisions are made. So I'm really passionate about that, and me myself, I've been have benefited from the likes a woman and the corporate life. So I feel like it's I want to keep, I want to encourage some of the younger woman, encourage younger woman and I do already a little bit, but it's something I want to do more of is supporting younger woman comes through the ranks and creating the conditions for that. So yeah, so that's kind of.

David Bent-Hazelwood: 21:35

And so excuse me, there's two big related things I hear that one is building a peaceful nonviolent future and being the voices which have been silent, giving them a chance to be stronger, be louder, and often that those are female voices from the frontline as it were. We then also, if that's the general direction, do you have particular priorities for the coming few years? So are there specifics about that, aiming towards that future? Yeah.

Helen Henderson: 22:13

Some, some a have found myself as it's like, a lot of people have found yourself outdoors a lot more and immersed in their natural environments where we belong, I suppose. So I see, sometimes the piece of work that I would have been involved in this can be very difficult, and draining, and emotional, and, and a wonder, and I'm interested in exploring nurses who can be and to create the credible reaching out of way of doing this work that regenerates the people new leading the work of in general, it's the people involved in the work and our natural environment. And so priority, I think, for me is making those connections with the groups, because we tend to kind of, you know, we work in sales, we do workshops, we do training, and feel like priority and mood, all right, that that's can take people out of their comfort zones, in a big way, but move away, but also return shelves and our natural environment. So potentially, I might potentially have some land the next year or two. And if I do, then that's a really want to say I want to use it a wonder user to enter it. Those people, especially the people who have been, have been silenced, or haven't been heard and regenerate, was our other camera of like, or, you know, or trees or urgent or. So, I don't actually have a very concrete idea that but it's, it's something that's kind of common down the road in the next few years. And I wanted to be a collective approach. But I don't have a set idea of how that's going to work yet. But it's the idea that'll that'll happen. It'll unfold. Yeah, once upon a time,

David Bent-Hazelwood: 24:16

where and and it just strikes me that you have both a formal position as a commissioner and then do your work in the networks you have from your work at that, if that will mean if the opportunity arises, particularly if you do have a piece of land, and you can assemble and draw in and attract the people in the communities that you need to make that happen. Which is that you're in a good position to make all that happen. It's just and forcing it before it's ready would and having a plan may not be the right way of making it happen either.

Helen Henderson: 24:51

Yeah, yeah. Well, that's great. So yeah, that'll that'll emerge. Hopefully, it'll be emergent.

David Bent-Hazelwood: 24:59

And so if someone was was inspired by your work in your priorities on peacebuilding on bringing previously silenced voices to the fore to that sort of regeneration of the combinations, what should they do next think that they listen to this thing or Yes, that's what I want to be working on, what should they do?

Helen Henderson: 25:22

I think part of the process that they've had to do is like, slowing everything down a little bit. And practice of attunement. And notice some, some hadn't become less busy. To probably the compensating think there's something about written yourself, giving you a strong whenever you're about to cross a threshold that you know that you have, you've rooted yourself, whether it be in your place, or your stories, or where you've come from your stories, like there's a process of taking that, that there's a game called out to Macintosh outside until you're could take where you stand. You know, and I think that really stuck with me because it was like, you know, taking the stand, I mean, you know, being written yourself means you're, you're strong, and you can cope with the, the, you know, the storms and the, the way, here's the thing, no slap in the face as they're gonna do. You know, I think that's a really important starting point, obviously, we're always doing that. But I find, you know, I find it useful, even just connecting them, those relationships with family, older family members, and even even just start to think of it. Family members from the past, and we've grandparents, just kind of a practice of our early ancestors has been useful for me. And then the attunement of just noticing what's going on others know, for me caterpillars on a leaf doing some setups or

David Bent-Hazelwood: 27:11

working on this on muscles, the caterpillars.

Helen Henderson: 27:17

Just been able to notice that space and time. And coming back to kind of expose up some of the something I've learned. Through some work I've done with a group of colleagues here, around and touching us looking at you can relate some indigeneity that something was a practice, just being attuned to what's happening around us. So that's a good starting point. And I think the other thing is networks, you know, they were not individuals, you know, and I think the networks are really critical, especially younger people coming through, but how long, you know, being connected and getting involved and just the universe as well. Because I think no, I'm a great one for a chat about things. Like when it comes to actually just to unit, that's where the learning comes from, from the Dean doesn't come from the textbook, it doesn't come from you know, so it's just you're not on any make all sorts of crazy mistakes. And, and I don't like making mistakes, but I've made quite a few of them. So yeah, and I suppose part of the practice is that the body wants to come back to Bobby and just listen to this. Because whenever I know when I've made those decisions that have gone against me got to let him know that, you know, you're especially if you're going to the past like think my official career path isn't really a path that's been like a but it's been a bit of a crazy winding river, you know that there was no logical kind of path or not. But I think it's a bit of a balance between creating a lion having enough of a vision to know where you want to go, but you still have to have the flexibility and the supple muscle and openness just to take opportunities as they arise as well. So what should we do next? Thank you so and Diana is really a campaign where you stand

David Bent-Hazelwood: 29:30

then for me if you were to give your younger self if your younger self was starting their career now, what advice would you give them

Helen Henderson: 29:46

I would tell them that it was okay to be themselves and that was nothing to be ashamed of, you know. And not to worry even ever think when when my younger self assume so concerned was fitting in, you know that you were willing to do your can become a gondola people pleasing mode. And so sometimes it's okay, that's not to please people. Sometimes it's okay. Not to fit in as well. So thanks. Yeah, I think my career paths and many people made seems alternative. It's not like my parents go blogs, I'm going to just love to teach you and I quite enjoy it. But you know if you're going to, and also if you're going down a path that's maybe challenging the system a little but then there's a part of Yeah, so just being kind of be okay with the, the knocks and the rejection, you know, and that's my Egypt trade really, that you need to eat community are people the whole deal those moments. My younger self, think it's all about relationships, invest in relationships just pays off in the long term, you know, you know, and relationships, do you need them best for them? And I think the fact that they don't, you know, that's really what I've been leaning on recently, have been on those all those relationships, but because of the relationships that have been well nourished and nurtured and you know, I've been able to do that, or vice versa, whenever we needed. We need our nets. Yeah, there's, yeah, really invest in relationships with organisations as family was place was.

David Bent-Hazelwood: 31:45

And I hear you saying invest in the senses sense of giving them time and attention to it's not invested in the sense of money, not buying relationships, you're generating investment, generating relationships, through your attention and your time. Who would you nominate to answer these questions because you admire their approach.

Helen Henderson: 32:09

I work with this wonderful woman from Peru. She's also an educator, but she kind of semi nomadic. But she lives she lives here in Northern Ireland, but half the year, and then she's around the world. But I would normally a term because she she's a beautiful, kind, compassionate, was great Sphinx. And the thing for me, when I think about women in leadership, I feel like, she emanates the qualities of managed, it's not it's not going on with the kind of acts. So weren't. Maybe that some things but you know, feeling she, she leads with her heart, you know? Well, and, and Charile was also the commissioner with the call the commission at a time. But no, she she does a lot of work between indigenous communities, and the Amazon, and feed bodies. And so she does a lot of that, like, creating the conditions for very difficult dialogue. And I think it's a really brave thing to do. And I think it's also timely. So a great admiration for her her and her approach, because she's one of those people, you'll meet her and you just she's, you know, she's so warm, that everybody just wants to be near, you know, but she also has what she does, I keep doing what she also says she has, she has the power of this award, to actually when he needed to create clarity and action. And so I just think for me, she holds all those kind of approaches and bounds.

David Bent-Hazelwood: 33:55

Yeah. Sounds amazing. Lady, and the way you're describing her there reminds me of Joanna Macy's, description of Shambala warriors as having was it Lysa compassion and the sort of insight and that they're having both of those, not just the coldness of the inside and not just the warmth of the compassion, but both. Is there anything else important you feel you want to say? I

Helen Henderson: 34:26

made some notes.

David Bent-Hazelwood: 34:28

I ticked off all of the things in the next

Helen Henderson: 34:34

Yeah, there was something I wanted to make notes but wasn't that important?

David Bent-Hazelwood: 34:41

Well, it's been it's been wonderful talking with you. And it's wonderful to think. I mean, one of my reflections amongst many is being born in England and living most of my time in London. And being in a relatively privileged position, middle class, go to university, all of these kinds of things having a preferred additional job and career move for the most part is just the I've always been in a relatively secure place and not worrying about security and not worrying about conflict and whether I'm in a peaceful situation. But that's a privilege that I've had that others haven't had and that you're working on, have been working in that with people and communities in your own wish you're rooted in that can't take that for granted. And how important that work is, because so much else relies on feeling secure. And yes, it's easy for me to take that for granted sitting here in London. But as we're talking, there's a war, an invasion of Russia into Ukraine, there's a war in Yemen, there's a war in Ethiopia, Eritrea. And there's a whole bunch of conflicts going on within the US and elsewhere to say, taking our security for granted is something which we have been used to, but rebuilding the peace afterwards, and bringing out the voices, which have been missed is really important work as well. So thank you for all of that.

Helen Henderson: 36:10

Well, thank you. And I always just love and admiration for the people. I work with them for so grateful. It's a very privileged position to be in.

David Bent-Hazelwood: 36:19

Yes. So it's been wonderful. Thank you very much, Helen. And you've been listening to what can we do in these powerful times? We'll be back next week with our next episode. Thanks very much for listening.