What Can We Do In These Powerful Times?
What Can We Do In These Powerful Times?
Zahra Davidson
Zahra Davidson is Chief Executive and Design Director of Huddlecraft, a Community Interest Company that uses the the practice of combining people to unearth and multiply potential (Zahra's Linkedin, Twitter and Medium). Huddle craft asks: 'What if everyone could multiply their potential by the power of their peers?'
We talked about how collective learning is so necessary for global transformations, but how to contribute at the necessary scale while keeping the important relational, often local, character of individual peer learning groups.
Links
I think Huddlecraft's About Us page is a Masterclass in formulating and communicating an organisation's strategy (it covers: landscape, north star, puzzle focused on, alchemy that gives hope (ie methods), ecosystem, outcomes, compass to guide decisions).
Ummah -- "Arabic word that means 'community', ...it is commonly used to mean the collective community of Islamic people."
More on microclimates in Huddlecraft.
Example Huddles:
-Sheffield Pioneers: place-based leadership.
-Father Figures: exploring 21st century fatherhood.
Zahra's blog on creating a surge of peer-to-peer movements.
Upcoming Huddles to join.
Timings
0:45 - Q1 What are you doing now? And how did you get there?
6:40 - BONUS QUESTION: What does Huddlecraft mean by microclimate, and what makes for a good microclimate?
11:48 - BONUS QUESTION: Can you give us some examples of some of the inquiries people have taken off some of the peer learning that has happened within Huddlecraft so far?
17:30 - BONUS QUESTION: is it fair to say that HUddlecraft has taken for a very distributed approach which mimics living systems and nature?
20:45 - BONUS QUESTION: How do you get right combining intimacy with scale?
22:28 - Q2. What is the future you are trying to create, and why?
29:30 - Q3. What are your priorities for the next few years, and why?
31:26 - Q4. If someone was inspired to follow those priorities, what should they do next?
31:26 - Q5. If your younger self was starting their career now, what advice would you give them?
33:21 - Q6. Who would you nominate to answer these questions, because you admire their approach?
34:45 - Q7. Is there anything else important you feel you have to say?
More here.
Twitter: Powerful_Times
Website hub: here.
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Thank you for listening! -- David
Welcome to What can we do in these powerful times? I'm your host, David bent, and I've been working in the field of sustainability and climate change for some 20 years. It feels like the need for change is growing faster than the impact we're delivering. So I'm wondering, What can I do next that is useful. Speaking with others, they have that same challenge, which is why I'm doing this interview series in 30 minute bites, I asked some brilliant people what they're doing now and why all to inspire and enable the audience, which may just turn out to be me through stories grounded in experience. Today, I'm delighted to say we're joined by Zara Davidson, who is the CEO of huddle craft. Hello, Zara. Hello, hello. So, question one, what are you doing now? And how did you get here.
Zahara Davidson:So what I am doing now, full time with most of most of my time, and energy is running huddlecraft , which is a community interest company. And we specialise in peer to peer learning, and more specifically in peer groups, or what we call huddles, and the power of those small groups of people to create micro climates for learning change or transformation. So the idea being that within a small group of people, you can have slightly different social or cultural rules and conditions, that means something is different, or something else is possible within that space that might not be possible within the wider surrounding environment. And so we're really interested in how those small groups can be used to change behaviour or mindsets.
David Bent-Hazelwood:How did you get there?
Zahara Davidson:Well, it's been, it's been a sort of a six year journey. So far, how to craft began as a side project for me. So I wanted to find a way to keep learning and stretching myself alongside the work that I was doing. And initially peer to peer learning with a means to an end, it was like, How can I do that without a lot of resources? Well, what if I had a group of people and we could teach each other we could share ideas, we could pull the resources that we do have. And actually, in practice, when I started piloting some of these ideas, I became really fascinated in the unique potential of peer to peer learning and what that meant. And I've followed that thread ever since. From hosting huddles myself to begin with, then training other people, to host them as well, then working with organisations to host huddles internally, or to think about how they can use that methodology toward their own purpose, their own aims and challenges. And still exploring the sort of multiple possible applications of peer groups now.
David Bent-Hazelwood:I think I've heard you say elsewhere, that one of the reasons why you wanted that peer based learning as long as it being convenient and costly or cost effective, was you wanted to recreate some of the experience you had at art school of exploring things with others?
Zahara Davidson:Yeah, yeah. And I think I think the motivation initially came from missing a sort of a spark that I had fell in, in art school, and within those environments, which was a sort of dynamic cohort of people who were all acting in quite a self directed manner, but also collaborative at the same time. And who were all fairly driven to progress their work. And there was a sort of like a sparkly fizziness to being in that kind of environment. And yeah, I think I really, I really missed that and, and thought it. And then I think another thing that I I realised retrospectively as well, is that I'd actually grown up as part of Muslim community, and in many ways, had watched my family engage in kind of circles and small groups and sort of small subsections of the larger community for lots of different things. And I think, more than I knew at the time, I was also drawing on that experience and also just finding a way to find community See as well beyond my community of friends,
David Bent-Hazelwood:who I'm just this is at the limits of my understanding of how Muslim religion works. But so as, as someone who grew up in a predominantly Christian context, there are there is an archbishop of Canterbury, there is a pope, there is like a centralised authority, which does that directing of what should be taught for them for huge portions of Christianity. But that's not really the way it works in the Muslim world, as I understand it. So their notion of circles and self directed learning is much more prominent amongst her. Is it Alma? Is that the right word for the community?
Zahara Davidson:Yes, that is the right word for the community. Yeah. And actually, I think why my knowledge of how that works in Islam, generally is probably very poor. But within the particular sort of strain of Islam that I grew up in. There's quite an independent spirit within that anyway, because Sufism is sort of, can be slightly adjacent to the rest of Islam. And I grew up in a sort of a mixed community, where it was a combination of lots of people who British converts, and then people from culturally Muslim backgrounds, from places around the world as well. And so there was a real sense, actually, of some things being done in the way that people wanted to do them and in finding ways to be a British Muslim and think about what that actually means. So yeah, that was my experience. But I don't feel like I can speak for the
David Bent-Hazelwood:totality of all Muslims everywhere. But it's interesting to make that connection from that early experience to through to huddle craft. And you had a what sounds like a huddle craft technical word, microclimate. So you hinted at what you mean by that. But can you unpack for us? What makes for good microclimate?
Zahara Davidson:Yeah, yeah, this is this is a new metaphor, or relatively new metaphor, for us that we are sort of playing with at the moment because it feels so apt for what we have often struggled to put language around. And so in the same way, that within a microclimate, you might have a slightly different temperature, which means that something can grow within that, within that area that can't grow in the rest of the surrounding environment. That is how we've come to think about peer groups. So by changing the temperature, or by changing the rules that there are in in the space between people how people relate. So that might be for example, doing things in a non hierarchical way, which might be in contrast to the way somebody normally does things, like changing those rules, something different can grow within an individual or something that people are working on together. So that's sort of why that analogy feels really, really helpful. And then I think, yeah, what makes a good microclimate?
David Bent-Hazelwood:Or even how you generate it, because there's there's also the sense of an because I've seen this some of the material, these huddles, these peer groups go on a journey together. So maybe it's as much about how you generate it as the it is of the microclimate. So,
Zahara Davidson:yeah, yeah, I think there are a few things I think there are, there's the sort of curation of the group of people and how that group of people are put together. And then I think there is the structure of the journey that those people go on together after that. And so to think about the first thing, first, I think what we've really learned is that, for a huddle to be really effective, you need a degree of diversity on lots of different spectrums within within that group. But also, in some ways, not too much. Because there are always factors that are glueing a group together and factors that are pulling them apart at the same time. And what you want is for that group to have coherence and to be able to stick together for either for a defined period of time that you have, or indefinitely if that's what you're doing. And so sometimes when there's too much difference, that can create a really strong force that sort of pulls a group apart in a way. So that's definitely one thing is kind of finding a really an interesting and healthy mix of different perspectives and identities and backgrounds or whatever. And then yeah, in terms of the structure and the journey that people then go on, I think what we've really learned is that peer to peer learning is a lot more complex inherently than a sort of one directional teacher student transmission learning, because transmission can be happening, you know, between multiple people at the same time. And so in order to navigate the complexity, and the potential of that group, structure is really important. And facilitation or hosting can be really important to sort of unlock that as well. And I think there's often well, I don't want to say a myth, because I don't know. I don't know the ins and outs of what other people are trying. But it seems that there's sometimes this myth of kind of, yeah, peer to peer self organising, put people together and boom, that's going to happen by magic. But that's not really our experience. I don't think it's that actually you have to structure things in a way that if there's more complexity and more potential inherent in the peer to peer dynamic, how are you reducing complexity in other ways, so they can actually benefit from that. And so I think we think about that quite a lot. Where are you sort of dialling that up and dialling it down?
David Bent-Hazelwood:And have you seen some of your materials I'm always impressed by, you have some fantastic metaphors and signs that really encapsulate different aspects and make so that's part of reducing the complexity, you don't have? The participant doesn't need to think about everything, because you've done some of the thinking about the structure, just sort another structure for abundance to quote Graham, Leicester. Can you give us some examples of some of the inquiries people have taken off some of the peer learning that has happened within Huddlecraft so far?
Zahara Davidson:Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So give some examples of the themes of the huddles first, anyway, and what what they can be because the way our model works is that we train people as hosts to then initiate a huddle, recruit the participants and then facilitate that journey. And so when when we invite people to apply as a heist, we invite them to apply with their idea for a huddle. And that's really completely open to them, and what they want to do. And so we end up with this broad range of different inquiries, which we could never have imagined ourselves as a team, which is one of the things that keeps it really fun. So in our last batch of hosts, we had a group in Sheffield called the Sheffield pioneers. And so the idea of that group was very place based. And they wanted to think about how they could be leading change within Sheffield, and what they could be doing as, as individuals to sort of accelerate changes that they wanted to see in the local area. We had a group called father figures, that was a group of men who were either fathers or fathers to be you're considering fatherhood. And they were sort of exploring just the concept of fatherhood in the 21st century. What does that mean? How can I play that role in the best way possible. We had a group called the makers marathon which brought together amateur artists, crafty people, people that wanted to spend more of their time and attention on on making things. And so they spent six months swapping techniques and running workshops for each other, which always had a different outcome or something that they've made together. So hopefully, that sort of shows like the breadth and the different ways people can apply this approach. And then, within each of those groups, as well, people will have their own sub inquiries. And that's usually invited explicitly as a learning question. So within the father figures group, you might have someone who is very much exploring their own fatherhood. And you might have them alongside somebody who's much more interested in a sort of societal level of how narratives can be influenced, for example, and so you get a kind of concoction of different questions within the wider theme.
David Bent-Hazelwood:And for each of those puddles, there'll be together although they'll have, what 18 months 12 month journey, where they have some moments together, perhaps initiating that inquiry. Doing those workshops learning things And then in between each moment, they'll be off trying stuff out. And then they come back together to make sense of what they tried out and then set themselves up for the next set of actions, next sets of experiments to learn from that, is that broadly, right?
Zahara Davidson:That's broadly right. I mean, the typical length of a journey tends to be six months. But sometimes it's a bit shorter. Sometimes it's longer. And yeah, you're absolutely right, that there tends to be this rhythm within the group sort of coming together, and then going away, doing things independently and then coming back together, we tend to structure the journeys around, loosely around the idea of a design thinking process where you have moments of divergence and moments of convergence. So parts of the process where you're exploring really broadly and gathering ideas, and then other parts where you're filtering, or maybe thinking about something you could create or a way of manifesting your ideas. And normally, that comes together at the end with some kind of showcase or public sharing event for celebration, accountability, all of those good things.
David Bent-Hazelwood:I think the other thing, my reflection as an outsider, is whatever it was about 656 years ago, perhaps a bit more, there was a lot of enthusiasm for Frederick Laloux reimagining organisations and the idea of sort of distributed organisations which are based much more as living systems and network rather than as families or as machines, which is more and more typically, most, most organisations have those as their root metaphors, even if they don't quite realise it. And I think of all of the organisations I'm aware of, it feels like huddle craft has, whether deliberately or not, as it has this very distributed approach. So your training hosts, what question they bring is up to them what question the participants bring underneath the umbrella is up to them. And the journeys that go on is something that they are in control of. So it's it's a very or used within the structure that you support them with, they choose their own path. So it's a very distributed, broad kind of approach, which mimics living systems mimics the nature and ecology in many ways. Is that fair?
Zahara Davidson:I hope so. I would like I would like to think that that's fair, I think we another metaphor that we use is the idea of a mycelium as well. So the network underground that supports mushrooms to grow above the surface. And so we sometimes use that to explain the web of huddles and the way that they pop up. So how to craft as an organisation almost being that mycelium underground that that network, working almost behind the scenes. And then that allowing huddles to pop up in actually quite different places or around these quite unexpected themes that we that we wouldn't have thought of. Yeah, and I think I'm also really interested in, you know, how that can continue over time. Like, at the moment, we, as a core team, run the host fellowship through which we train our hosts to then start the huddles. But could we go a layer even more meta, where we are then training, host fellowship leaders who could be based in different countries, for example, who then run those fellowship, who then train hosts and set our paddles? And you know, at what point does it become kind of too far separated from the kind of core of the organisation or actually is that a positive thing? Because? Because it's sort of Yeah, it's it's distributive, and actually, that overtime really means that the core team doesn't have to be the heart of the organisation. Yeah, I guess I'm interested in how possible that really is.
David Bent-Hazelwood:And in in a sort of legacy economy view. There are lots of businesses which are set up as franchises from McDonald's onwards, which have managed to do something like that, but it's become by massively standardising and which is sort of in many ways, the opposite of or not necessarily the opposite. There's part of your intention is to simplify the the structures so that people can explore so there is ended, standardised element. But at the same time, your original motive was that fizz and pop of people exploring together. And I'm not sure there's much fizz and pop in franchised businesses, not just the McDonald's of this one. So there's like it. And there's a bigger question, which we're not going to cover here today. But it strikes me that in the 21st century, as we have all of the powers that are given to us through communication technologies, the organisations that will succeed are ones that can combine intimacy with scale. So exactly as you're saying, like keeping those core values and the the important feel whilst being able to have a huge reach, and being able to adapt as they reach different parts of the world and not being hidebound. I don't have a solution to what that is. But it strikes me is an important thing to get right.
Zahara Davidson:Yeah, I think that speaks to one of my biggest questions, which is the the times the powerful times that we're in and this idea of kind of the next decade, and how important that is, and then all of the collective learning, which people need to do together if we're to kind of move through some of these challenges. And I just think that peer to peer learning has so much to offer that collective learning curve, but it's like, how do you how, how can that potential actually be brought to that challenge, when the way that it's most powerful is in these small and intimate, relational, often local settings? Because there's no, I mean, maybe there's a failure of my imagination, but I don't think you can just work a technical solution on that. And, and yet, it is something that is sort of quite highly replicable as well. And so yeah, just have have this curiosity. There's so much potential that peer to peer learning has for these times. But how can that actually be brought up the scale that it's needed? Without? Essentially, like, ruining it? Yeah,
David Bent-Hazelwood:well, that nicely. So I don't have an answer to that. And it's great to hear you do it? Because it also leads into the next question, which is, what is the future you're trying to create?
Zahara Davidson:I mean, I think, well, there's sort of the official answer is like, yeah, regenerative civilization on a healthy planet. That is what I think I would love to see. I often feel, I think, yeah, I struggle with kind of feeling as though as an organisation, we need to have a really unique take on that in some way. It's like a pressure that I feel. And I'm trying to let go of that. Because I think actually, we don't need to define what that is at all, I think, you know, many of us are just headed in the same direction anyway. And I also am obviously under no illusions about, you know, ultimately the contribution autocraft can make to that. But yeah, I think on the sort of smaller, more day to day level, or kind of zooming in a little bit, I'm, I'm really interested in what it means for people to have learner as part of their identity. And maybe, you know, maybe that isn't even the right language, given the peer to peer stuff isn't just about learning. It's about more than that. But it does seem to me that, that kind of curiosity. Yeah, it's quite, it's quite some, you know, some people have that as part of their sense of who they are and where they're going and what their life is going to be about. And other people and other people don't and of course, for it is is great. But yeah, I'm curious about what it would mean for more people to share in that collective identity of sort of learner or, or even co learner. Yes.
David Bent-Hazelwood:And so I want to call back to one of the earlier interviews with Margaret Hannah, of international futures forum where she was talking about real learning where people turn their epiphanies and integrate them into what they do next. So that what, but I think there's something really interesting that you were saying about the identity whether A learner is quite the right word, or someone who's curious in exploring and then integrating what they find into what they do next. Do we have a good word for that, as an identity? Student doesn't seem right either explore doesn't seem right. But I also wanted to connect what you said there with what you were curious about just before asked the question, which was the potential for peer learning in these powerful times, because it implied in what you're saying is, the future you're trying to create is one where there is ever increasing capacity through peer learning to respond to this powerful times in the direction of a regenerative society within planetary boundaries.
Zahara Davidson:Yes, and I think the way I will been writing a blog post at the moment is and I'm thinking about how, I guess ever increasing, I guess, I guess, I struggled to sort of see beyond the end of the next 10 years at the moment, I find that really difficult. And I think, becoming more interested in the idea of what if you could just surge, peer to peer learning through movements that are aligned with that idea of a regenerative civilization, multiple movements, all pointing at that, from a different starting point? What if Yeah, what if you could create this pulse or this wave or this surge of peer to peer learning over this period of time, that could just deepen and accelerate the great work being done in so many different domains? And somehow thinking of it in that time bound way, is really helping me at the moment and just feel so much more relevant to think about, then, how do we create a business model that can support that or something that can still be sustainable in 10 years time in 20 years time? Because it just feels like there's so many unknowns, and so many uncertainties? Yeah, that I almost want to just let go of that older idea of where we should be going and think about, yeah, what's the kind of what's the strongest pulse that we could make in this defined period of time?
David Bent-Hazelwood:Cool. That's a brilliant question. And just to respond to something you said earlier about, maybe it's your lack of imagination, maybe instead of that, that you're not able to see how you could do these things. Maybe it's because you're right at the cutting edge of what's been done. And so therefore, it's, nobody's done yet. And therefore, it's really difficult. And it's not a failure of imagination. It's part of the process of what what negative capability there's the moment of not knowing but trying. And
Unknown:that's definitely a more flattering way thinking.
David Bent-Hazelwood:I offer you that positive perspective, in all of that context. So then what are your priorities for the next few years?
Zahara Davidson:Yeah, I think building on what I was just saying, I wonder whether there's maybe pivoting is too strong word, but whether there's a next chapter for how to craft and lean into now that we have developed and tried and tested so many aspects of what we're already doing. Now, how can we kind of look at that and say, what does this really have to offer the next decade? And are there ways for us to resource a 10 year project, perhaps, which is about ramping up peer to peer learning, temporarily, maybe been in order to add power and depth across a range of different movements that point in the direction of the same North Star? And so I think, yeah, the next couple of years might be about finding a way to resource that slightly different trajectory for us,
David Bent-Hazelwood:and turning the potential of peer learning and its contribution to that collective learning curve into a real learning curve of real as that disruptive of learning. What an exciting time to be alive and working with shuttlecraft. And if somebody was inspired to follow those priorities, what can they do next?
Zahara Davidson:Oh, so many things. So directly in terms of getting involved with huddle craft, we have just taken on a new batch of hosts and they will be developing many different ideas for huddles which will be open for people next Ta in 2023. And so there will be upcoming opportunities to get involved in in huddling. We also run a training programme called How to Craft 101. That is happening again in November, it happens twice a year. And that's quite broadly offering peer led approaches in a way, that means people can take it back to their own challenges to their own setting, to their own community that they're developing or programme that they're running. And so in that training, we explore peer led approaches from what that means as an individual. What that means in terms of one to one relationships in peer groups, then in interventions and ecosystems as well. So that is definitely a way to get involved. But then I think also huddling being in circles is ancient technology. It's not something that we have invented, or owned. And so there are 1000 free ways to start right now, just by gathering two friends together and talking about something that feels important or deciding to make something together. And so I would say, just go for it as well.
David Bent-Hazelwood:Which is indeed how you started in what has now become model craft. So if your younger self was starting their career now, what advice would you give them?
Zahara Davidson:I joke not joke sometimes about how if I was speaking to a group of young people, I would tell them never to start a business because they have no idea how difficult it would be, but actually, it's a good challenge and to think about what I would say to my younger self, because I wouldn't take it back. I think I think I would just stay you know, remember to put sort of joy and relaxation at the centre of things as well. Because I think I really at the early stages, I just really poured everything into the work that I was doing, which is probably what I wanted to do. But I think that should never come at the expense of, you know, really enjoying your life, as well. And I think that's going to become hard, harder in some ways for young people now because of the turbulent environment that they're in. So I think it's going to take more effort in a way to put sort of joy and laughter at the centre of things. So I would prioritise that that would be my
David Bent-Hazelwood:Yeah, I'm gonna do the theme in everything you said really is maintaining the curiosity and openness and then try new stuff as well. So this is how to combine having that not as a burden, but instead as a joy, I think is what I hear and what you're saying.
Zahara Davidson:And don't isolate yourself. Be building relationships have lots of different kinds.
David Bent-Hazelwood:Yes. Who would you nominate to answer these questions because you admire their approach.
Zahara Davidson:Couple of people come to mind I don't know whether it's too close to home to suggest someone else from Huddlercraft, but my colleague Annika who within Huddlecraft runs money movers which is a specific initiative where we're applying peer led methodology to the challenge of climate finance and people moving their pensions and their personal finances to more ethical places. She She leads on that initiative for us, I think has a fascinating perspective. Maybe Annette Danny from Dark Matter labs, who leads on there beyond the rules programme, which is which is all about the sort of real nitty gritty of how organisations organise and how that can change, for example, focusing on employment contracts at the moment. I love how, how sort of practical and how zoomed in their approach is. Maybe Dan Burgess if you haven't spoken to him already.
David Bent-Hazelwood:I haven't spoken to Dan. I know him but I haven't spoken to him. So that's good. Good suggestion. And then just finally, is there anything else important you'd like to say?
Zahara Davidson:I think I think I have a concern about the how hostile the environment for small businesses and organisations might become in the coming years. And so I think I have a real curiosity about how small organisations can actually join together as peers in a life raft supportive way, in the same way that we work with individuals. Because otherwise, I think there could be risk of losing so many wonderful alternative, small organisations.
David Bent-Hazelwood:Yes. And we're speaking in September 2022. Energy prices have been going up, there's a new energy price hike for the winter. Lots of businesses, small, medium and large, are worried about those energy costs. Is that the only hostility that you see driving? Or is there something else that you're thinking of when you think about that, why it's a hostile environment?
Zahara Davidson:Definitely not the only hostility. I think the other thing that I see is that quite quite understandably, and rightly so. Employees are going to feel very much like they need to protect what is theirs. And I think I also see a danger of kind of employer, employee, adversarial. Yeah, sort of division there. And actually, I think what what needs to happen is that employers and employees need to see themselves as on the same team. In order to get through that, yeah.
David Bent-Hazelwood:Yes. Particularly if there's, if we think of our Wi Fi, there's quite a lot there about whether if we're in emergency, can there be a temporary pause or temporary reduction on some things? What how to make sure that everyone feels like they're part of the same team making similar fair sacrifices for each other. And I suppose my other observation is that's the that's the observation of someone who's the chief executive of a small grain business and thinking very mature about the challenges that you face. So it's a it's
Unknown:very live, very live thoughts and yes,
David Bent-Hazelwood:very live thoughts that are a part of thank you so much for your perspectives there and just to pull out that notion of a surge in those organisations that can learn from each other and people that can learn from each other add to that collective learning curve. on a on a time bound, 10 year drive for Regenerative society within planetary limits. It's a wonderful way of thinking about it. Thank you very much, Sara.
Unknown:Thank you for having me.
