What Can We Do In These Powerful Times?
What Can We Do In These Powerful Times?
Andrea Hartley
Andrea Hartley is Founder and CEO of Skating Panda, a creative social impact consultancy (Twitter, LinkedIn).
DISCLOSURE: I do some work for Skating Panda as 'Senior Associate -- Strategy and Sustainability'. In the 12 months to April 2023, that work comprised about 18% of my income.
We speak about Andrea's three priorities
- Unlocking those individual and organisational impact journeys,
- Finding ways to communicate big issues so that they can better have real impact
- Shifting the nature of consulting so that it acknowledges and acts for positive impact as much as possible.
Links
B-Corp, a certification scheme so that people can trust when companies claim they are 'for-benefit' (in contrast to being exclusively 'for-profit').
Climate Quitting - here is KPMG saying that "One in three 18–24-year-olds have rejected a job offer based on ESG record"
Jonathon Wise at Purpose Disruptors - mission: catalyse the advertising industry's climate transition to align with the 1.5C degree IPCC global warming target.
Effective Altruism is a "research field and practical community that aims to find the best ways to help others, and put them into practice." It is worth knowing there are some very important and strong critiques of Effective Altruism. For instance, here (£) The Economist shows how the commitment to "strong long-termism can also lead people to disregard common-sense moral commitments to living people".
My view: while a commitment to rigour on impact and getting 'bang for buck' is laudable, too often Effective Altruism is used as a cover for today's billionaires to perpetuate a status quo that they are successful in, rather than a better world for billions. As such, whatever the intentions of the founders and participants, I fear it has become an intellectual justification for on-going oligarchy, and so for preventing fundamental change.
Timings
0:48 - Q1 What are you doing now? And how did you get there?
8:57 - Q2. What is the future you are trying to create, and why?
12.01 - Q3. What are your priorities for the next few years, and why?
21:29 - Q4. If someone was inspired to follow those priorities, what should they do next?
26:55 - Q5. If your younger self was starting their career now, what advice would you give them?
30:09 - Q6. Who would you nominate to answer these questions, because you admire their approach?
34:21 - Q7. Is there anything else important you feel you have to say?
Twitter: Powerful_Times
Website hub: here.
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Thank you for listening! -- David
Welcome to What can we do in these powerful times? I'm your host, David bent, and I've been working in the field of sustainability and climate change for some 20 years. It feels like the need for change is growing faster than the impact we're delivering. So I'm wondering, What can I do next that's useful. Speaking with others, they have that same challenge, which is why I'm doing this interview series in 30 minute bites, I asked some brilliant people what they're doing now and why, or to inspire and enable an audience, which may just turn out to be me three stories grounded in experience. And today, I'm delighted to say we're joined by Andrew Hartley, who's the CEO of skating Panda, a leading creative, social and environmental impact consultancy. Hello, Andrea. Hi, David. So what do you do now? And how did you get here,
Andrea Hartley:I spend most of my life trying to effect and create lasting change that will hopefully itself, live and last long beyond my days on this planet. I do that in a variety of ways. One, I mean, kind of, personally, through parenting through friends through voluntary board roles for things I really care about. And also through skating Panda, which he mentioned, which I founded and run. And skating Panda, I mean, consists ultimately of a group of individuals who are organised together. In a collective that happens to be where a B Corp, we were a limited company, we became a B Corp. And we, I think, see ourselves both individually and collectively as catalysts and accelerators for change, and for real impact. And we're committed to deploying the skills that we have, you know, whether from business, charity government, wherever we've learned our skills and strategy and communications, to make a real impact on the biggest issues of our time.
David Bent-Hazelwood:Great. And it's worth me saying at this point that I do some work for skating Panda, and I'm just trying to look up what Yes, we call it me a senior associate strategy and sustainability. So as we're saying that out loud. So that's what you're doing now? How did you get here?
Andrea Hartley:And I think, well, the past before that started many decades ago, from probably with a childhood filled of meaning and vocation, probably lacking in means and hard cash, which led to a few years in big business. For me, learning about that, and realising, ultimately, that I could probably do an awful lot more from the outside in than the inside out. But it was invaluable experience in terms of understanding how multinational and big business works, and how things work kind of at a system level. There were a couple of probably quite seminal moments along the way, both working on the London 2012 Olympic and Paralympic bed after I'd left big business and understanding that occasionally in life, you have you know exactly who your stakeholders are. So if you're trying to influence 120 odd individuals, and you can really understand that audience, you can go about communicating and strategizing for that in a very specific way. And, yeah, I think that combined with a couple of other moments led me to think, well, actually, there's a bit of a gap in the market. This is at the time, this is one over a decade ago, for people who are focused in the consultancy sense only on impact, as opposed to, oh, that arm of our very big consulting firm might do a bit of good along the way, but it'll probably be slightly less profitable than the core bit. And therefore, whenever the financial times are bad, we might not continue to do that. Because actually, it's just nice to have. I mean, obviously, the world's moved on a little bit since then. And yeah, we've been, you know, happily doing our work over time, and continue to focus just on impact, and I guess proudly, so.
David Bent-Hazelwood:And is it worth Can you give us an illustration of what you mean by impact through whichever stories you can tell about organisations who've worked.
Andrea Hartley:So well, some of the work we do is obviously completely behind the scenes, we do some advocacy projects that are incredibly good fun, but we can never talk about which is really frustrating. But it means we're normally creating plans and targeting specific individuals with incredible power. And the way that we're doing that is Yeah, kept kept private, for a whole variety of reasons. However, the kind of public impact work and kind of theory, theoretical impact work kind of falls into two camps. One is more about the thinking, I guess, and one is more about the doing and the creative and the thing In Kenya, around planning and creating, you know, social impact strategies, big plans for organisations or for parts of organisations or for human individuals who want to see through an impact objective or don't know how to start to deliver on impact, and we might help them unpick that. And that impact can be in our main areas of impact are in gender, health, and the environment, a bit bit of sort of general emergency and crisis as well, I would say, and those obviously overlap and interlink as they should, they should never be treated in isolation. And the more public kind of side of things is, we have a lot of fun, creating big ideas in order to kind of, I guess, productizing, or creating new methodologies, or platforms for organisations to get the airtime they deserve. So you know, the more I guess, well known examples of that would be a little way back from a kind of environmental point of view, helping create sky ocean rescue, which has been part of many parts of the puzzle that have led to a lot more necessary focus being on how we interact with Planet Earth. And climate in that large. Also, I mean, for more of a health perspective, we brought Stand Up to Cancer to UK screens adapted it a bit from its kind of US version, broadened out the audience's that Cancer Research UK who are behind it, we're talking to weave much more recently done a lot of work helping put menopause on the map, as another example. So these are things that need a bit of creative ideation, definitely some planning, probably a bit of luck, and most importantly, of all, some really committed individuals. And I'm not talking about us, we are already committed, I'm very committed, but it's who we're working with, and how that commitment manifests itself.
David Bent-Hazelwood:And I suppose the thing that's sort of different threads that have cursed me about that is that there's a lot of creative consultancies, who create platforms for that for organisations to get better known. But that misses out on that impact side. So creating, creating platforms, creating whatever might be the means not only organisation, but I know that but the issue is better known, and that people can then take whatever the next step is. And those people might be senior politicians who need to say yes to a policy, or they may be the general public who needs to then shift their behaviour on those levels, different things might need to happen. But there's the the impact, the real impact is the the core differentiator for skating panda.
Andrea Hartley:Yeah, exactly. And we I think we define that as an enduring change in the status quo, which, you know, is caused by an organisation, which ultimately is just made up of human beings that contribute ultimately towards achieving the Sustainable Development Goals. All that sounds very grand, at the end of the day is often quite helpful for individuals to unpick and unpack, you know, what is what, what does that actually mean? What's my individual impact within this big ecosystem? But yes, branding, for branding sake, no, thank you. You're building a brand or a proposition in order to achieve real impact? Yes, and I mean, your podcast is right, rightly called, you know, has the words powerful times in it. And I think, if, in a way, part of our mission is to get every organisation or individual acting in some positive way for a sustainable planet and a healthier, happily, happier society. And that's quite a big goal. But if you break that down, it's, in my view, highly achievable.
David Bent-Hazelwood:So then let's talk a little bit then towards the future, what is the future you're trying to create? And why?
Andrea Hartley:Yeah, I mean, I think big picture. There's, it's not just our vision at skating panda or my vision individually. I think it's really about a world that is much more imbalanced than it feels that we currently are. I mean, I think you can put around in your everyday life thinking things are things All right, thanks. Or you can take a step back and think, are we able to live, you know, within the planetary boundaries in a balanced way, over the coming years? Or do we ultimately without wanting sound too dramatic about it risk, the human race, you know, and a few other things that I happen to think are worth having? Do we risk them not existing anymore? So I think I'm driven by that. And within that, again, if I kind of break that down, it's about unlocking the impact journey at an individual level. So what is the part, you can play in that, or each one of us can play in that. And maybe we do it, you know, collectively as a team, that could be within an organisation across organisations, but what is the most that we can do to create that real impact, but also, you know, to have a really good time doing it everyone I meet, who is happy at work, you know, quote, unquote, and everyone has their bad days is definitely doing something that involves impact, as well as maybe some financial return and whatnot, as well. And this is, I mean, you know, many scientists, psychologist, and more have looked into this. So I think, unlocking that, and if you're lucky enough to be able to choose, and I think we can choose to a degree, what you do, then that's kind of the future piece that I'm excited about.
David Bent-Hazelwood:Trying to create a future where everyone is enjoying themselves, getting the the income they need, whilst creating the impact that aligns with their values, and to use looking at particularly in a work context, as well, but it's just
Andrea Hartley:personal. I mean, I think the it's easy at the moment, to think a lot about environment, there's a lot about the ecosystem and how we interact with it. There's a lot about climate change, you know, there are climate deniers, there's all this going on, but the social piece, and the reason we skate and kind of call ourselves a social and environmental, you know, Impact Hub. And consultancy is because the social piece is really important. Our systems aren't necessarily organised around our individual welfare or collective welfare. And that is, you know, as important as many other things, including the planetary peace, in my view. So I think, you know, that balance is absolutely key. And I think, yeah, unlocking, helping for me, you know, catalysing and helping unlock an individual's impact journey, or organisation one is absolutely paramount right now.
David Bent-Hazelwood:Yeah. So then into question three, what are your priorities for the next few years for you and for skating better?
Andrea Hartley:Quite a lot, probably. It's where to start, isn't it, I mean, unlocking the individual I've talked about, but you know, and with that comes giving people that I work with, and we work with the ability and confidence to do that, and not make it feel like too big a risk. Because it will, in my view, actually ended up being the best thing one ever did. If you're not already there, if you're there, keep keep at it. Brilliant. I think for me, there are there are other pieces around that. I mean, as someone who manages a team of people, there's something about the direct, you know, employment opportunity and thriving culture that I have, within my control, to provide and grow for that team, and how to make a working culture and a workplace the very best it can be, in order not just to deliver on the impact aims, but to, you know, provide a modern and effective way of working that, you know, is really rewarding. That's kind of on the on that level. I think, on the other level. There's a lot we live in an age where facts aren't necessarily what they seem or aren't facts at all. So within the world of social and environmental impact, I think helping navigate that and all the different systems and metrics one can use to map where one is, I think it's a total minefield, we get approached all the time to, you know, help help demystify that. But I think so that's kind of a really important part of it, that I just see day in and day out. And, but I think, you know, on a much bigger level, there are two other things, one of which is around, you know, what are the potential particularly with a communications hat I wear on what are the biggest things that can be communicated better in order to catalyse real impact? So I'm thinking, you know, for example, what if we had a really proper big, very accessible kind of communications attempt around what planetary boundaries actually are to make that real? And, you know, on growth and D growth or sensible growth, what is that all about? So that it's the majority rather than the minority that understand that at a at a mass level, from a health point of view, you know, what's the best we can do to prepare us for the next big health thing? Should we be looking at AMR should we be looking you know, at something else, you know, on mental health is actually all about emotional health rather than mental and physical health. What about our relationship with sugar with tech, you know, the, the list of very many things Yeah. Have that I hope to, you know, play some role in making them either get better, faster, or just get better at all. And the other part of it for me, I mean, which I guess maybe all of this that is up into it is around, you know, in the consulting world, the more you work in brilliant partnership with people, as opposed to think of the transaction that, of course, is happening at some level when you're a consultant. But at the moment, I still think that kind of impact consulting is in the minority. There are a large number of extremely big service firms around the world. And it isn't impact that they start with it is impact that might happen somewhere along the way, if at all. And I think we need to change that paradigm. And I hope skating panda plays and can continue to play maybe a tiny part in that. Because given how many people hire consultants, I think if that's part of the mechanism for change, then yeah, that also needs to rebalance a bit.
David Bent-Hazelwood:Yes, I mean, and on that last point, there's a lot of one, don't be too harsh about this. But for a lot of the large consultancies, in particular, I don't think they realise that all of their work will have impact, whether they call it capital high impact work or not. So if they're helping an oil and gas firm to be more successful, that's helping one kind of one end of the economy to be more successful, rather than another. And to, to acknowledge that it's, all of the work has impact, even the parts that you don't badges impact. And I have a friend who is a lawyer, who's trying to get more firms to divest from working with oil and gas firms in the same kind of way that some, there's been a divest and invest movement in the finance world around the same kind of ideas. And I just want to go back also, because you listed out some issues or some like topic areas, and the biggest things that can be communicated in a way that because drives better impact. You thought about planetary boundaries, and degrowth health, including mental health, and sugar and technology. And the one you didn't mention there, but I know is close to your heart is gender. I just wanted to give you a chance to get
Andrea Hartley:across all of all of that gender and education. I mean, I could go on and on. There's a big list, isn't there? Gender? Yeah, gender. I mean, as we all probably know, the gender equity and kind of equality during COVID has gone broadly against women and girls for a variety of reasons. I happen to be actually a mom of three boys. So I firmly believe that in balancing out how we treat and give voice to and give agency to women and girls, that it is absolutely critical to be in very healthy dialogue with the Boys of today. And working out a really clear, though, it's never a science path forward in terms of how we address some of the areas that could actually give us the solutions to the other things we've already been talking about in this podcast, which is balancing out, you know, economic access impairment, education, many of the other really big things that are so basic and seem so obvious, but we don't seem yet to have addressed there, what I tend to do is pick out a couple of things at a time to tackle on that front. And absolutely, then look at intersectionality and the systemic approach on them. As well, I did, I was heavily involved with actually setting up a gender focused political party politics with a totally small p. Because I think the other thing that's probably on the list is about and this is not my personal job, but somebody reinventing politics and political, you know, political approach, you know, and being really careful about, I guess, plutocracy versus democracy, because the gender piece plays out all throughout that as well. So I think yeah, we could have a whole other conversation on gender but it is absolutely underlying is everything that I feel and stand for and do and I, you know, happen to be. I don't necessarily talk about this much, but I happen to be a woman who happens to be a parent who happens to be running a business, etc. So there's there's a lot in that as well, and the lived experience of that that I feel can be helpful, I guess, in informing what We all do on this
David Bent-Hazelwood:show. Great. And I think there's I mean, there's a couple of themes to what you're saying which have cropped up, or you won't be surprised to learn in other interviews in this series. So on a different kind of politics, there's John Alexander and his focus on citizens. And there's Becky Willis and her work on a new social contract between the state and citizens in a world a time dominated by climate, and on particularly on things to do with people being able to take action. Diana, Karen, of today do this is another example. So there's, there's various themes, but I think a big theme across all of the conversations really is about giving as much as possible, giving people the power to make a difference in their own lives. Which is what I think I hear when you're saying, your first of those priorities about unlocking individual impact journeys and mobility, organisational impact journeys. So my next question, so let's, let's imagine somebody's listening to this, and has heard your priorities about unlocking those individual and organisational impact journeys, about finding ways to communicate big issues so that they can better have real impact on this, I mean, a very long list of potential issues under there, but nevertheless, finding ways to communicate them better. And then finally, shifting the nature of consulting so that it acknowledges and acts for positive impact as much as possible. So those three priorities. So what I was inspired to follow them, what should they do next?
Andrea Hartley:I guess if you haven't yet mapped your impact, kind of journey and approach, map it, give me a call, I'll help you. It doesn't take that long. I mean, honestly, it's like, sitting down for a coffee. It's not that hard. The hard bit comes after that. So map it, and then do it. From a comms kind of communications point of view, I think it's, we all have agency, whether we use it or not on comms is up to you know, is up to us. But even if you're in a workplace at the very beginning of your career, and you are going with the flow, then ask some questions, if the impact piece that you want to see happen isn't happening. So ask questions, you're not going to lose your job over asking questions. Normally, I mean, there may be a couple of questions you could ask that would be risky. So don't take that literally. But I think ask some questions that you know, know and think need to be asked, use your voice on that. And then use your channels of communication in the truest way you can or lean on others, if you feel you don't want to use your own. Because, yeah, I mean, life's short. So why not? And I think I mean, I don't know, there's a big trend at the moment for this, this whole climate quitting thing going on, which has had a lot of coverage recently, which is a we actually skating panda ran a poll on this is kind of in the results, weather, I think it's definitely a thing to stay where people, you know, quit your job to work in a company that has strong sustainability values, or, you know, take a different job, which tackles the climate crisis, or it could be another issue head on. And I think that's going to be something we're going to see more of. So I think, if you're thinking about what to do? Yeah, I mean, I don't know, come and work for us go and work for an organisation, go and work for an organisation that does something that you respect with the impact thread in it. And the big I mean, the bigger thing you asked about there, I think is the consulting piece. I mean, yeah, that's that's harder to tackle in our in a heartbeat. I think it needs a bit more of a plan. But if you're working with a big consultancy, you know, borrow from the purpose disruptors model, perhaps have a look at what Jonathan wise and that lot are up to. That's with regards to advertising and looking at advertised emissions and have a have a big deep think about that, read a couple of books. You know, there's, you know, I guess I'm quite inspired on this by Effective Altruism, and there's something called Doing good better, is that what it's called? I can't remember. But anyway, there was a good book written about that. So if you want to read a book on it, read that because it's about unlocking your personal approach. And yeah, or chapter chapter David as well.
David Bent-Hazelwood:Listen to all these podcasts and and I think one of the things you said there about asking questions, if you're asking questions, in an open way, and without to non aggressive and and then you lead to being sacked, is probably a good company to leave. Because if they're afraid of good questions, then they going to be around for very long. I say that as someone who was an auditor at the time of Enron, and was that so I think there's something important about if a company can't cope with good questions, and there's something deeply arrived with its culture and operations.
Andrea Hartley:What's the worst thing that could go wrong? You know? And if the worst thing that could go wrong, it's never normally that bad. But if you're really worried about it, then that's a wake up call, I guess. Yeah.
David Bent-Hazelwood:And I think a second thing I'd say is Effective Altruism, is having a bit of a turbulent time at the moment. With the scandal around one of the Bitcoin variants, I can't remember the name of it also in my head. And the questions, it has an approach to utilitarianism called strong long term ism, if anybody's interested in that I put the show notes in there. But I think the end so there's, there's reasons to take Effective Altruism itself with a pinch of salt, but the impetus behind it about how can we have more impact for every unit of action, every unit of thing we do in equity, be deliberate in that and check ourselves and make sure we pay attention to whether it's really having the impact we want is a good intention that informs it. And then just the final little meeting together is absolutely to Liam black, he absolutely along aligned with what you were saying there about. When you know enough about what you want to do about your impact journey, take the leap, take the step, don't hold back, because you'll never find out by not doing all of those things.
Andrea Hartley:I also am sorry, just one other thing, actually to add, I think the other thing is this can all sound, this might sound a bit theoretical and left brain, the right brain. But there's a thing about creativity in all of this, that's really important. Because if someone's feeling that they are not being they're not fulfilling their creative potential, then there are so many opportunities to do that. With, you know, again, with an impact lens. So this doesn't all have to be kind of thinkI it can be really creative as well. Which is is pretty important.
David Bent-Hazelwood:Absolutely. Onto question five, if your younger self was starting their career now, what advice would you give them?
Andrea Hartley:I think, do I mean a job that you love. And that's a really hard thing to do. Because you don't know what the job is before you do the job. But try and find a job that you love, and that has importance. Make the mistakes, you know, enjoy learning from them, if that's the right, Ferb. And I would also say we know, I mean, very obviously, you no longer have a, you know, one job for life, but work between sectors kind of, ideally with depth to understand how the world works early. In order that you can, then yeah, just have, give yourself if you can some choice if you haven't got one vocation, and also deepen your understanding of how it all fits together. Yeah, I think I started skating Panda, when I was in my 30s. Because I wanted to make, you know, I've kind of done the rounds of a couple of areas and wanted to make some tangible change directly. And I think when you know that you're doing that, if I look back, it makes, yeah, that that kind of choice at that point makes all the early exploration worth it. So I think the exploration is really important. Yeah, what else would I say? read and watch everything. I mean, I think it's the, the, I think it's, you know, read, read up on everything, but enjoy the lighter stuff, too. I think the combination of what I do now comes from some of it comes from having followed really light hearted stuff on on telly and whatnot over the years, as well as having looked at the more serious side of things. So that combination of just trying to work out how the world works. And the other thing is just with everyone you meet, just keep in touch with them and work out. You know, what your journey is with each individual you meet. Because as you go, those people you'll obviously cross paths with them again, but you might even end up working with them and making amazing things happen together. So yes, stand strong and all of that, and I don't know, listen to your instincts and go for it.
David Bent-Hazelwood:Yes, I mean, it does sound well. It sounds like that for you that first part of your career in a big business. You learn the you didn't want to be in a big business, but you did learn a lot about how those places work. And therefore you could be an outsider who helps us insiders. It was really, really important grounding. Yeah. But it was only because you've done that, that you knew more about what you would love and were able to create it.
Andrea Hartley:Yeah, yeah. 100% and I really enjoy working business whether it's a you know, new ish, you know, purposeful startup that is probably going to challenge some of the biggest brands of our time or whether it's a bigger business that is really worried about you So how do I how do I future proof myself? Is this the right thing? etc? So yeah, I think I certainly enjoy that journey. So I wouldn't undo much of it.
David Bent-Hazelwood:Wonderful. Who would you nominate to answer these questions because you admire their approach.
Andrea Hartley:And there are loads of people. I think the big thing that we should all wait for is you answering them when
David Bent-Hazelwood:the last episode, I think every
Andrea Hartley:every one of you should be interviewed. Seriously, because you've listened to them all. And I think you should play back. Some kind of mash up the Greatest Hits bit or something or your own version of them. There's an amazing woman that I came across recently called Lucy Easthope, who is I think, one of the leading experts in emergency planning and dealing with emergencies, who I think would be fascinating. Who else? Paulina Murphy, probably from the world benchmarking Alliance, I think she'd be very interesting. Think from a health point of view, Professor Roseanne appealing, I think she's one of the wisest people I've ever worked with. I also think I mean, I don't know if you're into like making change happen. There are a few people. You know, there are some octogenarians out there with a lot of time on their hands, who probably have some wise words, I think a few teenagers at the other end of the spectrum wouldn't go amiss. I don't know how many teenagers or looked at scenarios you've interviewed.
David Bent-Hazelwood:Neither of age group, but I did deliberately, relatively early on seek some people, particularly women who had retired I have a friend of mine, Ella saltmarsh who I hope to have on here, at some point, had a few years ago complained about how older women have just disappeared. So I was really keen to have the voice of older women in some way. And Susan Harrison, who was who was interviewed, as she turns out to be one of the most downloaded podcasts of completely, I don't know why, but anyways, turned out that way. Do you have an elder or a teenager in mind when you say that? Or is it just as a category to look out for?
Andrea Hartley:A couple of well, one or so people without being mentioning age of the people I've mentioned in that category? I will send you a list. No, there are a lot. I mean, I think there are quite a few teenagers just very interesting, you know, to get their take at a moment in time. I think maybe you do a litmus test with a teenager once a year. On on things, you know, following how I know the BBC, the BBC and most media companies target I think a 12 year old ish brain. So if we're not getting the views back of that, then you know, it'd be interesting to do that. The I mean, the other person actually is a fair bit, sir, who chairs a board that I sit on, I think she would be a great guest. I could go on and on.
David Bent-Hazelwood:Sure. And one little sidebar would be for the charity that I chair Iris Foundation, we went through a recruitment process for our trustees. And we realised that we were looking for specific skills. And when we asked those specific skills, and came to shortlist in who was interviewed, we interviewed people who had those skills, but that meant that they were more experienced. And therefore, the people who were off the end of the run along this but not the shortlist were tended to be the younger professionals in their 20s. And so we deliberately created a like a role on the board, which was for the next generation of finance professionals. So somebody who's a finance professional, but in their 20s. And the experience they could bring wasn't an experience in human rights or in investment management, per se, but an experience of being a young person facing this world and having to figure out their professional path, and also what they were going to do with their finances. We thought that was important voice to have on the board. So we'll I'll see what I can do the similar vein for this interview series. And then just finally, is there anything else important you feel you have to say?
Andrea Hartley:Big question? No, thank you very much indeed for this opportunity. Keep it, keep it keep it up.
David Bent-Hazelwood:Well, and so one of the things I will take your recommendation on board about there's two different kinds of things you meant in terms of this series. One is a summary and reflections on what people have said. And another is what my answers would be at this moment. I don't know when I'll do that. But I decided like the thing to do. In the meantime, I want to say thank you to you, Andrea, for answering the questions and giving us these priorities, particularly around unlocking the individual and organisational impact journeys and for real impact, and what's the biggest thing we can communicate, for better to have that real impact as well as important things for us to engage with. So thank you very much, Andrew.
Andrea Hartley:Thank you so much.
