What Can We Do In These Powerful Times?
What Can We Do In These Powerful Times?
Ella Saltmarshe
Ella Saltmarshe sits "at the intersection of culture, narrative and systems change" (website, LinkedIn, twitter). She describes herself as a founder, systems change specialist, anthropologist, writer, podcaster, teacher, activist, and (as of very recently) a mother.
We recorded this interview on 31 October 2023, only a few weeks into the Isreal-Gaza conflict. Anyone who follows Ella's work will have seen her recent focus on that conflict. For the start of any International Women's Day events (8 Mar 2024), she suggested people use some acknowledgements. This one spoke to me in particular:
"Before we start, let's take a moment to acknowledge and remember the extreme suffering and terror experienced by women in Gaza, Israel and the west bank over recent months. The 195 women killed by Hamas on October 7th, the at least 14 female hostages still remaining in Gaza.
The 8,570 (and growing number of) Palestinian women who have been killed by Israel. The 5500 women who are due to give birth in Gaza over the next month with no medical facilities, with 40% of those pregnancies classified as high risk.
May our actions contribute to their safety.
May we support each other in working for an immediate ceasefire. As women, may we demonstrate what international solidarity looks like, today and everyday. "
Our conversation focused on the role of culture and narrative in helping us transition to a regenerative future. In particular, how we are really messy, irrational, emotional creatures. So we need to be working at the level of emotions. The things that move us emotionally are stories.
In particular, Ella is focused on nurturing cultures that have stewardship at their core.
She suggests building communities around the questions that move you.
Links
Long Time Project "aims to galvanise public imagination and collective action to help us all be good ancestors."
Inter-Narratives. Subscribe to the newsletter here.
More on my late wife's work on the use of time in child and adolescent psychotherapy here.
You can hear Steve Waygood explain Macro-Stewardship here.
Timings
0:56 - Q1 What are you doing now? And how did you get there?
9:35: BONUS QUESTION: What is it that you mean by narrative?
17:43 - Q2. What is the future you are trying to create, and why?
19:53 - Q3. What are your priorities for the next few years, and why?
22:58 - Q4. If someone was inspired to follow those priorities, what should they do next?
26:01 - Q5. If your younger self was starting their career now, what advice would you give them?
28: 59 - Q6. Who would you nominate to answer these questions, because you admire their approach?
29:41 - Q7. Is there anything else important you feel you have to say?
Twitter: Powerful_Times
Website hub: here.
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Thank you for listening! -- David
Hello, and welcome to What can we do in these powerful times. I'm your host, David bent. And I've been working in the field of sustainability and climate change for some 20 years, it feels like the need for change is growing faster than the impact we're delivering. So I'm wondering what can I do next that's useful. Speaking with others, they have that same challenge, which is why I'm doing this interview series. In 30 minute bites, I ask some brilliant people what they're doing now and why, or to inspire and enable the audience, which may just turn out to be me through stories grounded in experience. And today, I'm delighted to say we're joined by Ella saltmarshe, who is the director of the longtime project, host, other longtime podcast and co founder of inter narratives, which I hope we'll hear about soon. So, Ella, what are you doing now? And how did you get here?
Ella Saltmarshe:Hi, David. Great to be here. Thank you for having me. So what am I doing now? My work is all about how we can work with culture, to have a future on this planet. So it is about the role of culture in narrative in helping us transition to a regenerative future. And how did I get here? I think I've always had these different sides to myself. So I've always had side that was very concerned about change in the world. And so I was educated anthropologist, I went and worked in international development, I kind of started working on systems change pretty early, building the field for this work, doing the work. So side of me is very kind of wonky, about change. And then a side of me has always adored culture. So I grew up on a remote farm in North Cornwall, where we didn't have a TV. And on the one hand, were these really feral creatures. And but on the other hand, I always had books. And so I would escape into these worlds, these fantasy worlds that were so other than my reality. And then I started writing fiction and writing drama for film and TV as an adult. And for a long time, just have these parallel lives, my life working in social change in my life as a creator of stories. And I was always a bit embarrassed perhaps about having these two sides of myself and wouldn't let people from one world know about the work I was doing in the other world, because I somehow thought it would undermine my credibility in that space. And I think part of my journey has been understanding the power of integrating those two worlds. And so I'd say maybe seven or eight years ago, I started looking at how to do that, and really started working at this intersection of the role of story and, and culture in systemic change. And since then, have done that in lots of different ways, setting up different organisations, projects,
David Bent-Hazelwood:and so on. And just help us navigate a little bit about what is it you mean by culture is one of these terms, which can mean lots of different things, lots of different people? So for you the culture? What does culture mean? And what's parts or what aspects of culture is that you're working with? And three?
Ella Saltmarshe:Well, there one way I find helpful to think about culture is what I call big sea culture and little sea culture. So little sea culture, are the shared norms and values that we have, that get passed down across generations, and define what we do collectively. They're the culture that unites us, in our lives. And then we have the big C culture, which is the world of cultural artefacts, whether that is art or adverse is the world of culture manifested, and the two are really intrinsically related. So the kinds of small see culture we have, the kinds of shared norms and values we have will determine the kind of big sea culture we have, but also the kind of big sea culture we have can influence the small sea culture that we share. And so I see myself working across all these different arenas of culture, and be very intentional about about how we connect them. Wonderful.
David Bent-Hazelwood:And so you meant or introducing you I mentioned three things which presumably are where you're playing with that As bridging that space between big and small see culture, and more. So, longtime project, longtime podcast and into narratives. So first off, talk to us about longtime project and longtime podcast, what tit for tat about, what are you doing there?
Ella Saltmarshe:Yes. So a lot of my work I said has been about narrative, when I've been thinking about narrative, I've been thinking about the kinds of values that are important to bring about the world we need or to bring about a world in which there is a flourishing future. And thinking about values A while ago, led me to the value of stewardship. So stewardship is a value that you might see those on the left and the right, there aren't very many that do that. But stewardship is one of them. And at the same time, I had this hunch that thinking about time differently could be really potent, when it came to helping people take responsibility for the future. So this had been after like a decade in the climate movement, and nothing seemed to be working at that point, in terms of how we were communicating the issue. And, and so I have these kind of two insights like stewardship is this really powerful value that can unite people across political divides. And there's something interesting about time, and so began to experiment in this space with Beatrice Pembroke, who is my co founder at the longtime project. And until we just started playing, we started gathering people, we had a residential retreat, we hosted some meals around the theme, and we found that it was very potent, that there was something about thinking about time differently that changed the way that people took responsibility for the future. And, and one way of understanding that is thinking about how we can step into our role as good ancestors. So how can we understand ourselves to be ancestors, whether we have kids or don't have kids? And and then how can we be better ancestors. And so that's what that work is about. And we do that at lots of different levels. So we do that working with government working with cultural institutions, and trying to influence the public discourse, but also working directly with the public. And that is where the longtime Academy podcast comes in, which is a podcast that we developed, initially with headspace, the meditation app, and scenery studios, and that podcast was all about how do we take these ideas and make them really accessible? And we work really hard to do that. The producer on the show is extraordinary. And she often you know, we'd start an episode and I'd have my white kind of technical ideas about what we should be covering should always pull us back and be like, no, no, no start where people are at start where people are at, where are they going to be? Where is your listener going to be? And the result of that has been a podcast that's just done really well, I think, one Podcast Awards last year, and has kind of gone much further than we ever could have hoped for. And, and all of that has been around like, how do we harness the power of popular culture, to help us grow the values we need? So that's the time work. And as I kind of talked about, it's very much born from quite a lot of narrative insight. So alongside that work, I've continued to do lead the narrative work directly, but also to support narrative infrastructure in the UK. And so into narratives is a project that we founded with the environment funders network, in the early days of the pandemic, and is a project that is all about connecting social justice, new economy and environment movements, around narrative that is a place to share narrative insight is place to learn from each other to make sure we are more than the sum of our parts when it comes to narrative. Yeah, and it's something that is a kind of an ongoing community that people can come find us sign up to our newsletter. You will get fortnightly newsletters with lots of narrative insight. And then there are monthly events
David Bent-Hazelwood:and I'll put the link to the newsletter into the show notes for anyone who's listening they can find it and so help unpack for us what you mean by narrative so that it feels like using it in a very want to use word use earlier, wonky kind of way, specifically, narrative in this context. What is it that you mean and what's Can you give us a flavour of some of the insights about how to use narrative for social change.
Ella Saltmarshe:When we talk about narratives, we actually designed a narrative map to help people think about all the different things we can be talking about when we talk about narrative. Because we can, there are loads of different kinds of information and insight that can help us tell better stories. So on the one hand, you've got information and insight about the audience. So who are the people you are trying to influence with your narrative? What what matters to them? What are the kinds of stories that resonate with them, so that has all of the kind of call and can't quote research that will help you understand your audience, then there's all the work that's about how you package that research into insight, which is useful, and how that insight reaches the people who are shaping the stories that you've got that work. And then you've got the work of shaping narratives, which can be about the deep narratives that animate our worldviews it can be about the issue narratives and how we talk about climate change how we talk about revolution, through to the tactics we use to get narrative out into the world, the channels that voices. Yeah, what are narrative strategies are so when I talk about narrative and dogma, all of that. So sometimes we will have people on sharing call research, sometimes we will have people on sharing deep narrative work, sometimes it will be around the nature of tactics that people are using, or are useful.
David Bent-Hazelwood:And I remember, I mean, this is a long time ago now. But is it Chris Rose, when he was just actually left Greenpeace talking about the narrative of Greenpeace always had to be a David versus Goliath. That was their best kind of campaign. So there's a way in which in a particularly campaigning world narrative as a way of quickly communicates your cutting through and resonating with people, so they don't have to understand all the technical details they can say I'm for David against Goliath. And that's one aspect. That's perhaps the content aspect or the message aspect to the narrative. Is that a fair way of thinking about that one part of you're trying to craft the the way in which to reach that audience with a message that will get them to act on the direction you think is the right one. And in the case of Greenpeace, in the past, it's been finding David versus Goliath situations.
Ella Saltmarshe:Yeah, I mean, I think what you've touched on there is like, what, why we need narrative. Because I think traditionally, as movements, we have been really focused on telling people the facts, we only get people to realise the facts, we're just not telling them the facts well enough, once they realise the facts, then everything will change, and everything we want to see in the world will happen. But of course, that's just to ignore the way the human mind works. We are not motivated by facts, we are motivated by emotions, we are really messy, irrational, emotional creatures, the truth will not necessarily set us free, we often won't even act in our own self interest. And so we need to be working at the level of emotions. And the word emotion, the origin of the work is the word is from the Latin move, irate and move. And what are the things that move us emotionally they are stories. And so that is why it's so important as movements that we work with stories. Yes, of course, we need the facts. But we have to recognise that it is in story that people will be moved.
David Bent-Hazelwood:I think going back up to the longtime project and stewardship and good ancestor, as you're talking about stewardship that reminded me, I mean, this is a slightly random connection. But Francis Fukuyama his book on political order. He talks about how ancient Rome, they had the sense of their generation had one part of a rope, and that rope reached into the deep past of all the previous generations, and forward into all of the future generations, and as a responsibility of that family to not cut that rope because that would cut load to the past and to the future. And for those into ruins, keeping the home fire literally burning, the half burning, was symbolic of maintaining that connection with the past and with the future. Is that the kind of thing that you mean by stewardship has this deep roots in sort of our political culture and even an even deeper into our psyche?
Ella Saltmarshe:Yeah, absolutely. It is about understanding our place on this planet and long unfolding of both the history of Earth and the history of our species. And exactly as you described, there, the all the future lives that we hold in our hands. And those of us around at the moment, have a kind of disproportionate amount of power when it comes to the fate of billions of lives on earth, and ultimately is going to be on us while the quality of those lives and ultimately whether they exist at all, and so helping people understand their place in in this lineage, and also stepped into their power, to be a good ancestor is a really important part of the work.
David Bent-Hazelwood:Wonderful. And I can't leave this topic without mentioning the work of my late wife, who died two and a half years ago as we're talking, who was researching, and doing a doctorate in how to use time well in her context, which was child adolescent psychotherapy. And she was struck by the challenges and the tensions between the demands of the NHS, which is about throughput, more people through treated was better, and the training that she'd had as a psychotherapist, which was much more about the qualities of outcome and of care in the process. So there's a sort of tension between efficiency and effectiveness. And she wrote about her practice of trying to balance all of that out by using three Greek gods of time Cronos, for regulated time, care us for opportunism. So your session is an hour, and in that there'll be opportunities to make a difference, to listen out for and doing all of that whilst in connection with Aeon, with a sort of long time with a sense of being part of almost such long time that no time was passing. That is a connection to the deep unconscious of things which continue forever. And she put it slightly better than my marriage to quote it there. But there is a sense in which I, whenever I hear about long time project, it has that accommodate what is definitely speaking to that Aeon aspects. But I imagine it's also speaking to those other qualities of time to have what we can't we have chances and opportunities make a difference now, even in the face of the pressures we have in the modern world.
Ella Saltmarshe:Yeah, well, that's beautiful. And I didn't know that she was working on that. And yeah, that's such a beautiful framing of it. And yes, like the work that we do is about thinking about all those three qualities of time. I think it's it's about understanding how we do time, how time does us, and how we would like to do time in order for us to have a long time. And so there are many different kinds of levels to that work.
David Bent-Hazelwood:And one of the things I'm trying to do in her name, in spite of having a legacy for Joe, is to continue that work on using time Well, not quite sure how to do that. But it's in progress as we talk. Which takes us on to the second question, which is what is the future you're trying to create? And why? What is the what's the direction on destination of all of this work?
Ella Saltmarshe:Well, the direction of it is that we become cultures that have stewardship at their core, that we become cultures that make it easy for us to be good ancestors. Yeah.
David Bent-Hazelwood:Great. And are the cultures now which have that which you're inspired by? Or do you feel like you're having, ironically, to create it from scratch?
Ella Saltmarshe:Oh, you're definitely not creating from scratch, there are many cultures out there that already have these values at their core. And, you know, a lot of this work is, you know, there is that phrase, the future is indigenous, is understanding where these values and these cultures that have been, kind of have been grown around these cultures. So these cultures that have been grown around these values for millennia, like where they exist, what we can learn from them, how we can learn in ways that aren't appropriation and how we can, yeah, how we can use those that have deep history to to change our trajectory. And so, you know, I could list so many different indigenous cultures, which, which have these ideas at their core. And these cultures, you know, are so much more successful than us when it comes to longevity, like they, they've been around a lot longer like it works if you want the culture to continue, then having these values of stewardship at their eyes is key.
David Bent-Hazelwood:Right and then So, if that's the direction and destination, what are the priorities for the next few years and why
Ella Saltmarshe:Well, the priorities, the priorities for the next few years for me, I'll kind of a bit about infrastructure. So at the moment, I'm thinking a lot about what what infrastructure is needed to enable us to cultivate stewardship at scale. So that's the kind of succinct answer. I'm thinking about.
David Bent-Hazelwood:Within that. Are there like particular short term priorities? You have short term goals? Or as he was still stirring the pot? On what on the I suppose the gumbo the stool from which the stewardship could come? Are there particular parts of that infrastructure? You see that? This? Sorry, go ahead.
Ella Saltmarshe:Yeah, it was a mixture of things. It's a mixture of things at the moment. So some of the work that we just continuing doing and delivering, but we're also in a big design phase. So really thinking about what kind of infrastructure will support this. And some of that infrastructure will be around content and creating content, some of that will be around ritual. Some of that will be around supporting others who are creating work in this space. So it's really thinking about how do we build an ecosystem of cultural work that is helping us cultivate these worlds sustaining values at scale. And we're doing that through experimentation through conversations and design.
David Bent-Hazelwood:And I want to make a connection with said that no, can't remember his name Steve way good at Aviva, whose priority is macro prudential. And macro stewardship. Actually, he calls it. He's thinking there about the finance system. But he has a lot of work with Aviva on that. So this notion of stewardship is not, I suppose I've experienced it not just in the cultural domain, which is where the priority for you but also in the financial domain, and as I say, Steve waygood, at Aviva is moving it up into the macro macro stewardship for very similar reasons. Like, how can we make sure we look after or we use finance, and all of its power, to make sure that we can keep on giving to future generations what we would like to receive ourselves. And there will be a not a powerful times called podcast, but the innovation for sustainability podcast, I've interviewed him there on his innovations within ESG, and insurance, trying to get that all to happen. That podcast out soon as we're talking, but not quite yet. That's wonderful. So then, if someone was inspired to follow these priorities about narratives and narrative infrastructure, and about becoming a good ancestor about stewardship, what should they do next?
Ella Saltmarshe:Well, they can come and get involved and engaged with the word exists. And then I think one of the learnings I have gained over the years is the power of building community around questions rather than trying to work out answers in isolation and then impose them. So if you if this podcast is raising some powerful questions for you, then I really encourage you to build community around them. You don't have to have any of the answers to start doing that. And essentially, so much of our work is doing that is building community around the question of what it means to be a good ancestor. And yes, it is equipping people with tools and practices to help support them in that, but you know what? The answer to that question will be different for us all. So I'd say create community, engage with us. And and just start like, following your nose. There's, oh, there's so much interesting work happening in this area now. Yeah.
David Bent-Hazelwood:And the US here would be inter narratives that would be the thing to point people to and the and the longtime project.
Ella Saltmarshe:Yeah, yeah. And you can get the longtime Academy podcast wherever you listen,
David Bent-Hazelwood:including this very platform which you're using for this podcast. Also, shout out to a previous interviewee on this dougald Hine and his school called home, which has a strapline of growing and living culture so very much exploring a similar ish terrain. And when it comes to building community that sounds big and heavy, but I'm imagining the very first step could be something very simple. So what could the very simple first step be for someone who's listening right now?
Ella Saltmarshe:I mean, you could have a dinner party, you could have coffee with a group of friends in as someone who is quite an introverted misanthrope. The idea of building community can feel terrifying. And so instead it's like what feels comfy for you? Like, what are some ways of exploring a question with other people that will work for you. Because, you know, some of us feel excited and empowered by putting up a poster, really ages and putting putting up something online, and having a bunch of strangers turn up to talk about a question. But others of us will feel incredibly intimidated by that, and instead want to start smaller and closer to home. So whatever, whatever works,
David Bent-Hazelwood:if your younger self was starting their career now, what advice would you give them?
Ella Saltmarshe:One thing that I think I'd say to myself is, is to trust my instincts more. And I think when I was younger, working in the system, that we are trying to retire, the values and the norms and values of that system really weren't how I wanted to go about doing things. And being so deeply entrenched in them, it meant I often really doubted my way of doing things, which were very countercultural. And I often thought that the fact that I was having so much difficulty fitting in with the existing system was because of some kind of personal deficit, some kind of lack I had as an individual, or that I just wasn't adult enough. And one day, I grow up and be able to thrive in this system. And, you know, I wish I wish I'd learned at a younger age, that it was the system that was broken, not me. And it's only through meeting other people. The point people was really powerful for me, which was a group of women who started gathering about 13 years ago, and all of us are working on the edges at the intersections and starting to find other people who were working in similar ways made me realise that I wasn't a freak. And that the ways that I wanted to do things, were good ways of doing things. And yeah, I just wish that hadn't taken quite so long. Yeah,
David Bent-Hazelwood:I think it Douglas Adams quote, is like, You're not mad at the world that's mad. And so there's something about in a world which is, the mainstream is massively struggling. The stories that has about itself are exhausted, and are unable to give as much clarity or hope for the future. If you're working countercultural that you're actually probably working positively towards something better. But if you don't see anybody else doing in that way, then you feel like you're always swimming against the tide. So I think it's, it's hard to have that self knowledge without it turning into something either bitter or, or arrogant, that you don't need to listen to anybody else. But it's sort of keeping some humility with that is also an important feature. something silly for me to work on at all times. Who would you nominate? To answer these questions because you admire their approach.
Ella Saltmarshe:I was just thinking about this. I actually think I'd nominate my life partner, Matt Goulding, because I love the way that he's done his life and the way that he has kind of pivoted with the times and and the work that he's doing. So yeah, I nominate.
David Bent-Hazelwood:Okay, well, if he comes on there would be the first time we've had both sides of a pair. So we'll see that and then just finally, is there anything else important you feel you had to say? So anything you haven't had a chance to say?
Ella Saltmarshe:Oh, I mean, many things is wonderfully rich conversation and a short conversation. Yeah, there are many things I haven't said. Um, I think something that feels important is around navigating uncertainty. And these times that we live in are really confusing, complicated, difficult times. And I think the younger me waited for uncertain, waited for certainty a lot, I waited to feel certain that something was the right path, the right thing to do before moving forwards. What I've learned is that for me, certainty does not come in the abstract, it does not come through waiting, and it rarely feels like I think it's gonna feel anyway. And so the kind of the game is how to act without certainty. And doing that day after day after day. So, you know, I think it's sometimes on when we hear people on podcasts, and you know, folk have their ideas well thought through. And it can sound like everyone has their shit together all the time. And I just like that, that the practice of this work doesn't feel that way to me. Yeah, it is a constant kind of Aikido of, of navigating uncertainty and understanding how to live with that and questions and still act.
David Bent-Hazelwood:Yes, I forget which poet is talks about negative capability, that artists need to have the negative capability of being able to stay with the mess to stay with the trouble in the words of somebody who's never completely forgotten. Because it's only by staying with the mess for an extended period of time, that you can then have the ideas out the other side that might take you through or beyond. But that means sticking with the uncertainty and being comfortable with trying stuff out in that uncertainty, and not having not requiring a certain place to stand in order to try stuff out. Which is, as you say, very difficult. But it does relate back to that artistic heritage of often that is what artists and creators have to do is they have to play with work, even though they don't necessarily know exactly what they're going to be doing. And how they're creating. Yeah.
Ella Saltmarshe:And I guess the challenge is that now that's what all of us have to do. Whether we have artistic sensibilities or not. And I think it's, you know, it can be very tricky, emotional terrain. And I just think it's really important to call that out and to call out the mess. And, but also for me, I mean, yes, there are periods of my life where I there is a lot of momentum around the work that I'm doing, and I am very clear about the benefit is creating. But I guess I don't experience the journey as being there's a mess, and then I'm through the mess. And there's clarity. Yeah, like it's not that it's messy, messy, messy. conviction, messy. eviction. And so it's just like living with that as, as a congressman. Yeah.
David Bent-Hazelwood:And this reminds me, I mean, I do love my frameworks. And one of the ones that I enjoy using is Kevin. And in the Kevin framework as different kinds of situation can be in, one of which they don't say mess, they say complex, and a complex situation, you can't predict what's going to happen. So you have to be constantly probing with safe to fail experiments in order to find out what can be done, and where you can make a difference. And that's different from complicated or clear situations where you can just use good or best practice, and they'll be fine. But we find ourselves in situations which are best described as complex. And as we go through the turbulence of the coming decades, more and more of the situations, which used to be clear and complicated where expertise and best practice could work good enough for us to navigate, will become complex and turbulent. And we'll have to be experimenting, the safe to fail ways as much as possible in order to make our way through so very much yeah.
Ella Saltmarshe:And you know, safe to fail sounds great. If you are working in funded information lab or you have loads of resource behind you're safe to fail. But what what is safe to fail mean for most of us how do we create the conditions where it is safe to fail on lots of different levels? And I think that is a really important question because, you know, often some of these ideas like safe to fail, feel like they are I'm grounded in a very wealthy world of innovation, when that probably isn't the context that most of us are going to need to be creating, changing. And so I think it's really interesting to look at, like, how do you how do you take a lot of the insights and skills from that world? But get very practical around? What does that mean for the most of us? Yeah. As we
David Bent-Hazelwood:try to build as we identify the questions, we have build the question, build community around them as part of creating the cultures of stewardship that we need. So thank you very much. Hello. And it's been wonderful speaking. So thank you. And we'll be back with another episode of powerful times in the near future. Thank you.
Ella Saltmarshe:Great, thank you, David.
