Today we host Rick Merrill, CEO and founder of Gavelytics, a judicial analytics platform for attorneys so they can win more cases. He discusses the events that led him to start his own business, challenges he has faced in doing so, and his biggest regrets in the business world. Tune in for more insight into the world of a true Maven!
Today we host Rick Merrill, CEO and founder of Gavelytics, a judicial analytics platform for attorneys so they can win more cases. He discusses the events that led him to start his own business, challenges he has faced in doing so, and his biggest regrets in the business world. Tune in for more insight into the world of a true Maven!
spk_0: 0:01
This podcast is brought to you by Florence Filter, the leading company in air filters. They care about your air and have been since 1971. Good morning, everyone. This is Brandon Matt Loft in Los Angeles. Welcome to the Stella Oak Mavens podcast, where we feature different mavens in different fields. A maven is an expert of an expert there, the go to person who you would want to ask all the questions to before making a decision. The purpose of our podcast today has helped the consumer be more knowledgeable. Today. I'm really excited to host Rick Merrill. Rick is the CEO and founder of Gavel Itics, a judicial analytics platform that provides reports and insights to attorneys in order to help them win more cases. Rick graduated from USC with a degree in political science and then pursued his lot agree at his cross town rival, U C L. A Go Bruins. Before founding Gavel itics, Rick served as a litigator, spending seven years a Greenberg Traurig where he specialized in real estate. And today Rick will be sharing his experiences, a litigator and the decisions he made to get where he is today and what inspired him to develop Gavel itics. Welcome, Rick.
spk_1: 1:25
Thanks for having me in honor to talk with you today.
spk_0: 1:28
Thank you. So your unique perspective as a litigator must have played a role in inspiring gavel itics. Can you talk about how your experience sheep kind of your decision on starting this company?
spk_1: 1:45
Certainly. You know, like a lot of pounders of start up businesses. I waas angry about a problem in my industry and perhaps ordained reason. Right. But I was annoyed and frustrated. I have a litigator by the fact that even at my multi $1,000,000,000 law firm, we didn't know anything about the judges that we were, um, which really didn't strike me as, uh, a lot of sense, if you think about it. And really no area of our lives nowadays. Do we tolerate meaningful information gaps? You don't get a restaurant without checking yelp. You know, research. You figure out something without checking Google or all these other sources. Yet excommunicated long firms would litigate from judges without knowing really detailed quantitative information about the judge. So So it really struck me. Is the problem that needed to these fault? Um, so that that led directly to this business because, by the way, they're really nobody doing it for the most part. And so there was certainly business opportunity. But taking out your question in a short fashion, I just tell you that there was a problem in our industry that really,
spk_0: 3:06
really, really
spk_1: 3:07
needed to be old, and that's what we try to do.
spk_0: 3:10
So let me get this straight. You are at a big firm, probably making very good income out of school. You were there for quite some time, so you gave it up Thio to start something that you saw as a problem but really had no guarantee that there would be any success because it wasn't a business that already existed. Is that what you're saying?
spk_1: 3:32
Yeah, so you know the big challenges. Not only is this a new product, it's, you know, it's it's a new product classes. It's a pretty new concept for lawyers to be able to study there, judging a quantitative fashion. And we do this in many other industries or areas of life, you know so late in sports for a ramble users is the false statistics revolution and a ll these other things where things are measured in a sophisticated statistical fashion, but that really hadn't yet afraid the area of law. And so you're right. It was, ah, very big risk to leave an excellent, excellent job, dude, as to go try to start something. So it's it's risky and hard and all those things. But, you know, I'm unfortunate that my life is, uh, a real trooper, and you don't have to convince her that it was the right thing to do and worn out. We'd certainly have some really success over the last about three years. But, um, yeah, the initial lead is challenging.
spk_0: 4:34
Did you have ah, support system from your rest? Your family? Your parents did. Did they have ah role in this?
spk_1: 4:43
Yeah, I did. Unfortunate. Tiu have come from a pretty business focused family. My father, Nick Merrill Senior, the notable real estate guy in California and other states of my younger brother, Morgan Merrill is the founder of right games of the huge, multibillion dollar beauty in company. So he founded that business about 10 years ago with another guy named Brandon back. So I have grown up around business, you know, And, um, you know our family friends are all business people in all this. So I I was fortunate to have a lot of expertise that I could tab Natural resource is that I could I could tap, And certainly without some of those advantages, it would have been far more difficult to do what we're trying to do.
spk_0: 5:32
So it sounds like the only ones that probably weren't super thrilled about this decision was your colleagues or the people at your prior law firm. Is that right?
spk_1: 5:42
Well, you know, they were supportive, you know, nobody was against it, per se, but lawyers at the group or pretty risk a burst. So, you know, on the one hand, everybody recognized the need for on it like this. But on the other hand, people were sort of a maid that I was willing to take that one. Um I don't blame him. I mean, read. You have to be a little bit insane to go start a business, no matter who you are, because the odds are so against just no matter what industry you're in there, you know, no matter how good the idea is something, I often say that ideas are easy. And they are what's really hard in the execution of the idea. So you really have to have a high risk tolerance, no matter who you are, what industry you're in. Take the plunge to go be an entrepreneur started business because the odds are really you newly against you.
spk_0: 6:37
The odds are done. The odds are definitely the odds are definitely stacked against you When you're starting your own company. That's without a doubt. Especially if you grew up, you know, going to school. Then you went to law school and then you were at a firm for a long period time you hadn't been building necessarily the same entrepreneur skills that you would be using NASA. I guess that begs the question when you were in college or when you were starting out. I'm right after school. Was part of you always entrepreneurial? Were you looking for opportunities along the way? Was it really seven years in? You kind of figured something out and said, Hey, let me. This is a passion I'm excited about now. Now I'm gonna run with it.
spk_1: 7:20
Yeah, because of the business background in my family, I've always had an eye on business, and I spent five years working before I went to law school. I graduated USC in 2000. Blood and I work for a personal letter. And then I worked for a holding company that owned a bunch of apparel brands. I I a brief detour, investment, banking and all this. So I have some level of of financial experience and business background and also was a business minor at us. See that as a value. But it's certainly more than more than nothing. And yeah, I've always been on my mind, and like a lot of people working at big law firms, I certainly was looking at the exit, you know, one way or another. And so, you know, just this opportunity presented itself in. It was too good to pass up.
spk_0: 8:13
If you could go back to ah, you know, undergrad or even law school. Is there anything you would have done differently to put you in a faster pace position to do what you're doing now, or is there anything you look back? You're like me, and I wish I changed this about something I was doing earlier on
spk_1: 8:31
E certainly would have. I would have majored in business US. You've got a great undergraduate business program at the Marshall School on, but I got a little taste of that is a business minor. Um, I apologize. Fine majors. I always did. Despite the business interest, I did intend to go to Moscow in some fashion. But, um, the business major would have been a nice thing to fall back on if I didn't offer law school or didn't enjoy being a lawyer while he was in law school. Um, latest experience usually lays an excellent, excellent law school. If I have one regret is that I should have done the GNB A program you see, only like a lot of big universities has jointed degree programs, and it would've been added just a single year of my my time there. And at the time, I thought that I didn't want to spend another year in school and you know it already a little older than everybody and five years working. So I felt that that extra year might not have been something you want to do. But in retrospect, that was a mistake. I probably could have gone and taken the G man and all that, but that would be one regret. But Maier mean lifeline,
spk_0: 9:45
I love it s So tell me about some of the challenges that you've had. Because I know that any time you create a business, there's always odds were stacked against you. And there's things and hurdles that you look at yourself in your life in this business actually be a real business. Can I get it to another level? So So walk me back through a time where you had a challenge in your business. I want to hear about that. Sure.
spk_1: 10:10
So there there are so many, um 11 thing to start with is the challenge of writing the debt. You know, Let's start at the very beginning. Just when I left Freeburg the middle of 2015 um, I and much of the rest of the year, working on the deck wasn't working. My wife, Ellen, that mean of the whole thing and, uh, a lot of time working on that and yourself out. Start screaming. Oh, my God, it's the right thing. You've done. I can't believe it.
spk_0: 10:40
Here I am.
spk_1: 10:42
Dad spent making
spk_0: 10:43
money
spk_1: 10:44
for the family, and you know all these things and so being able to stay focused and stay on task and on mission is more emotionally challenging than I was expecting. And then deck was finished. End of the year 2015. We went out to market to raise money. Uh, early in 2016 we raised about two and 1/2 $1,000,000 in 90 days. We had a really great early see ground. I really just emerging people whom you know, so just sort of, ah, fluke. We were fortunate to know these people, but, um, the challenge there was it was just me. I didn't have a founding partner. I'm just a lawyer with a little bit of a business background. You know, I'm not a software engineer. Uh, so the big Shout Stairs Once the money was raised, it was sort of, you know, my God moments like, Oh, my God. Now what? We've got to have $20 in the bank and I need to go hire people. So actuality finding our CTO waas was it was very significant. And, uh, and interview 16 or 17 different people before we found our CEO who, by the way, has been the core of the business is any of potential entrepreneurs listening right now for our? My advice to you is is that you're early hires are critical and hiring the wrong person for a heat. The role could be fatal of the business and often you can't overcome or sometimes you can overcome the long higher. But if you're not fortunate, you can't. Then it could be game over. And for us, we did not hire the right person probably would have been the end of business. We had to go build a product. It took us a year and 1/2 to build it. If we had the wrong guy could have taken too long. Or maybe I would have you fired up and started over. And, um, it could delete everything, and we probably would have run out of money. We would not have been able to breathe second round, which we did earlier this year. So just it is absolutely critical to find the right people. Whether or not it's a co founder of these early You critical. Please hold. You must must must.
spk_0: 12:55
I want to take you back something that you just said that is so critical in building a company is. It's not only finding the right person, but what you said was that you did 16 or 17 interviews before finding the right person. How did you know? I mean, it's obvious now, at this point, looking back like, you got to find the right person. How did you know that at the time, you were just an attorney with a little bit of business experience?
spk_1: 13:20
Yeah. Fortunately, you know, in tapping my personal and professional network, I was able to talk to other people who had started Really? The businesses. We're not themselves Tech people. Um is my brother comes to mind. My brother Mark is not himself a software engineer. He's just a bright business guy who had a terrific idea along with his kind of Brandon out of you being the one to build. Neither of them were coders. Either of them were gonna have the necessary technical skills that they have to go hire people and they have some early misfires and some of the people that they hired and then it could be fatal writings. I never existed if they hadn't overcome some very early talent problems that they added. So Justin speaking with them. Um, And then other people, some of them situated, you know, really impressed upon me the importance of getting it right. And when One thing I would also say, Justin, easy. A pro tip here is that, um the way they will even find 16 or 17 people. Waas I have, ah, friends here in town who is a one of the head of recruiters at a company called Cyber Coders Guys, because Jason true now, cyber voters is one of several businesses out there that helps the company's flying tech talent. And so he's a headhunter, and through my relationship with him, he was able to start sending people Thio interview, and, uh, we'll use it all ready to fire you despite our friendship, because I turned through so many candidates. So, uh, unfortunately, he's patient were able to find the right person. But the nice thing is, resource is like that exist, you know, just go find a recruiter trying to find people, and you have to pay the fee. That's not cheap. But you know these for me, there really was no other way. And I wasn't gonna put an ad on Craigslist. Find a critical component of the business.
spk_0: 15:21
I think as you as you talk about it as you explain, like, you know, it's not just that you did a bunch of interviews. You also did a bunch of research on your own to really figure this thing out. You asked your brother, you have other mentors and other people you looked up to and you did research before you went to market, and so that give you the initial lift in order to be successful. I'm curious if there was any other mentors or any other people. You surrounded yourself on an ongoing basis even today to help you get your business to the next level.
spk_1: 15:55
One of the things that we did early on was deformed, what we call an advisory board. And so it's an informal group of business people here in L. A. By all of whom are investors in our business, they have different areas of expertise. And so, for example, um, we've got a very notable that anger on the seaboard. City else's, with finance and accounting issues, got a very notable a lawyer who can help us with legal issues and at my brother's on the advisory board. We've got several people in different areas of expertise. And so, you know, I think any business leaders need to be very self critical and and look at yourself and say, Okay, what do I not know? And the answer is probably locked, and that's okay. You don't need to know everything. You could just go hire people who do know those things. So, you know, you don't need to be a do it, do it all that type of person, and then you're pretty likely to fail. And if you try that And so so for me, I knew where I was weak in terms of my skill sets and was able to complete that those holes with, um with good advice from people who had been there, done that and what? One thing I can tell you also is when I was a reason money in that whole process, I I got lots and lots of advice from lots and lots of really bright, experienced people here in l. A and the one that struck me the most. Woz. I came from a very, very notable business guy and identify, but he's he's very, very very well known, and he told me that the challenge I would have would be managing my emotions. And I almost laugh because I'm not a particularly emotional guy. I told in Point place My life in that advice doesn't really apply to me. Thanks. Um, you know, talk about something else, but it turns
spk_0: 17:47
out
spk_1: 17:47
he got more right. You know what?
spk_0: 17:49
One of the
spk_1: 17:49
biggest challenges
spk_0: 17:50
that's any
spk_1: 17:51
business of your house is truly at managing yourself and managing me daily ups and down and a small new business like ours you have often down to the same our, you know, and so just be able to yourself and leading the team in the mission and vision. And all this is more challenging than I was expecting again. It's It's something that I suspect just about any any business leader has personally experienced. So you want viewers out there listening, you know, realize that's coming, no matter who you are. You know, it could be a violent set of ups and downs and, uh, just gotta persevere.
spk_0: 18:33
I think one of the biggest challenges on managing yourself is doing it by yourself. Obviously, you had your wife to support you and brothers and some other mentors. But then, in comes the value of having a personal or professional coach, and may be on the next podcast. Will put a professional coach in there kind of weigh in on Samir. Your comments. Next thing I want to do is really go into this rapid fire around. I'm gonna ask you a couple quick questions, and I just wantedto get your knee jerk reaction. That too. The way I phrase some of these things. So real quick share one of your personal habits that you believe is contributed towards your success in business exercise. What's your favorite book?
spk_1: 19:18
No, Hobbit,
spk_0: 19:20
you nice one. Best financial advice you ever received
spk_1: 19:25
and less money.
spk_0: 19:27
USC versus U. C. L. A. Who wins this year?
spk_1: 19:32
The question, of course. You
spk_0: 19:36
all right? Thank you for playing the rapid fire round. So I want to get a little bit into the content of gavel Itics. So can you tell me you know what s So if I'm an attorney listening to this or, you know, a business owner to source speak? Could you tell me like, why do I need it? Like, why do I need to know about the judge.
spk_1: 19:56
Sure, So we get a lick. Does we're speak work, focused product. We analyze in great detail the California's fear court judges throughout the county in the state. And the reason we do that is as just about any litigator will tell you that judges very wildly from one another, Judge Braden has had a difference of life experiences and traditional philosophy and legal education, then just Rick, and you really shouldn't expect them to make the same types of rulings, even on the same vaccine law And lawyers know intuitively, the judge is very great deal from one another. But really, until recently, there's no way to measure that and know in advance in grainy of the level what the judges tendencies are so that that's the value proposition that we have. We tell you in advance what the judge does and why. So we tracked her people, have pasts and slow the judges. We tracked the judges experience level of different types of cases. We track the rates at which the judge grants and denies over under different hype emotions. We tracked the type of Keith law. The judge tends to site in their rulings on different things on track. How often the receiver, whole peremptory challenges pursuing Thio CCTV 1 76 we tracked with the U. N Bench trials there. There's a lot that the product does, and it looks like this or that. This sort of concept is often referred to as Moneyball from lawyers. So many baseball fans out there don't know really what that means. It's just you're not familiar with the term. It's just really a physically sophisticated way of viewing the world. And that's what we do here. We can really tell you in advance what the judges tendencies are. Then a skilled lawyer could know what two D'oh you wouldn't try to persuade. The judge doesn't like issue acts in the same way that you would persuade the job she does. You know, it's just that there's all these different decisions that you could make it or not. A journal, the having this information, and so it really in our old rules to make good litigators better help them a win War cases win more business, by the way, one of the principal ways that this product uses to impress clients. So you know when you're when you're trying to convince IBM to hire you to represent them in a piece of litigation. If you can come in and say, Look, you're all the facts we know about Brandon here, here's our strategic and tactical decisions. We're going to make
spk_0: 22:22
the judge,
spk_1: 22:22
Braden, um, you really set yourself apart of the lawyer in law firm. And that's what we're hearing from a lot of our I am on a plane that they liked this thing a large part because of its ability.
spk_0: 22:36
Was there an ah ha moment when a law firm agreed? You purchase your software, your plan and you said Okay, I really have something here. I've made it. Now, Now I know I can take this to another level.
spk_1: 22:51
Yeah, we launched the product in September 2017 and it was pretty limited compared to where it is now in terms of geographic scope. So we're right now, California. Only that may be changing. We're gonna be watching in some other states leader this year, but, um, in September of last year, we were in two counties, just two in California. It's like that limited scope way pretty quickly signed up three big wall firms here in town, and the Daily Journal, which is the daily newspaper Californian it everywhere is familiar with. The Daily Journal, did a big cover story about us in January, and they quoted one of our clients as saying that this thing is the best thing I've ever seen. A unique way used Tiu Client blew them away, and we got the client as a result. So to see it actually work as intended and see that story printed in the biggest, the newspaper in the state was really a watershed moment for business. And, um, and that that was one of several hints that, yeah, we might be onto something here.
spk_0: 23:59
What's the vision? Long term
spk_1: 24:02
vision, Long, sir, is for this to be ubiquitous. I think it's insane and intolerable for employers to not know equal information about their judge Indians. And that's how it's always been. His integrity. Um, you're going back to sister a little that, you know, these waters just would guess about the judge, or they would. You're lying. Anecdotes are rumors about the judge, and that's it. And that's wrong in this era of Dina and um, and the chief computing power storage. And so So we want every lawyer in every state in the country to have access to this sort of Dina. So So we want to be literally ubiquitous. That's where we'll be utterly unthinkable. Thio engage in a piece of litigation anywhere in the country without in advance having gavel itics data about the judge that you could use to represent your plan.
spk_0: 24:54
How did the judges feel about this?
spk_1: 24:57
Great, great question. So, um, wait for candidate. Been mildly afraid of of that, you know, they can't stop what we're doing. You know, everything we do is obviously perfect. You'll you know, we're relying on public records and legal review and a I review of the records and all this. So we have a business, have First Amendment right tweet and say whatever we want about another court can't stop us, But, um, but that we certainly don't wanna get into a fight with the court system for any reason. We would certainly argued with or is that wherever we would, we would make the argument that we're actually on the same side of the court. You know, everybody has an interest in the orderly, consistent, efficient administration of justice we do. The court does way would argue that this sort of thing actually further Zach Cool. And so when the Daily Journal articles Pretty said we actually got a phone call the next day from a judge in downtown L. A. He was very Graham on the phone. I wanna talk. You guys must be somebody in. So I sent our our beauty sales and I was too afraid to
spk_0: 26:01
go. I think I turned
spk_1: 26:04
out not a bit nicer. Told us, you know, complaining. Lovely, You're doing great. That accord is grateful. It again trade for society, and the guy was raving about it. And then we showed in the data we had on him and what was great if he actually agreed with it because we were concerned that maybe he wouldn't believe the numbers or something. But he did, and then went on and on about how you know this is This is great. And then he asked to see data on some other judges from down the hall, which, which was pretty funny. So, you know, it's a small sample, but least advantages from the others that we've spoken with? Um, I really haven't reacted to take the strongly, and I and I should point out to you we did not invent this concept. There's there's one or two other businesses. There are, uh, years ahead of us that roughly do what we do but limited to the federal court system. And so, you know, they've been out a few years longer than we have, so, you know, they they haven't received strong reactions either. I mean, this is really just sort of a new spin on, let on what lawyers have been doing sensitive, but he which is trying to get inside data about the judge so they have an advantage. So this is just a much more So is the conversion of that. So, anyway, you know, my knowledge, no judges is truly, uh, upset about this. And even if they were, they couldn't stop it.
spk_0: 27:22
I love it. So before we wrap up, uh, would you like to share? You know, someone's interested in learning more about gavel itics or an attorney is one is, or the firm is curious about, uh, this software and how it can help them. Is there a resource you can point them. Thio are What's the best way for them to get in contact with you or your firm?
spk_1: 27:43
Yes, early so that the name of business again gavel itics g a v e l y e t i p f Westside gavel itics dot com Others There's a video demo on their show. The other product works. If you want to speak about seats in the email info as Catholics, you can email me directly under strict at Dabble IX, our office phone number's 3 10 314179 So we are were pretty easy to reach. And we felt primarily to be on a lot of 100 firms, which for the nonlawyers listening, that's the list of the 100 largest law firms in the world. But you also have prices and packages available for smaller and midsize firms. So way tried to make the stuff available for everybody.
spk_0: 28:31
Awesome. Well, thank you for participating today. This has been a Stella Oak mavens podcast. We empower you the listener, to take control of your life. You can follow her instagram at Stella Oak mavens for updates and more information about the podcast