The DEI Era is Over. What Comes Next for Leadership with Chrysta Wilson

For years, DEI was treated as the solution for workplace equity—but now, companies are rolling it back, budgets are shrinking, and the conversation is shifting. So if DEI wasn’t the revolution, what should leaders be building now?

In this episode of The Hire Breakthrough Podcast, I sit down with Chrysta Wilson, a powerhouse in equity-driven leadership, to break down:
✔️ Why DEI was never enough—and what comes next.
✔️ How to lead equitably even when the system is working against you.
✔️ The biggest mistakes leaders make when they think they’re being “inclusive.”
✔️ What founders, CEOs, and HR leaders need to do right now to create sustainable workplace equity.

This is not another check-the-box DEI conversation. It’s about what’s next—and how leaders can take action now.

🔗 Resources & Links:

Connect with Chrysta Wilson:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrystawilson/
Chrysta's Podcast: https://www.getyourtransformation.com
Website: https://www.wilson-and-associates.com/
Link to free resource: www.greatcultureguide.com

Grab the Hire Breakthrough Calculator: https://hirebreakthrough.com/calculator

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Transcript

Kimone Napier (00:12)
Welcome to Hire Breakthrough, a podcast dedicated to helping entrepreneurs like you take the breakdown out of their hiring breakthrough. If you're a founder who is ready to take back control and build your A team without the overwhelm, you are in the right place. Your host, Kimone Napier, is a hiring strategist, speaker, consultant, and CEO of Hire Breakthrough. We're on a mission to help founders like you connect with the right talent to scale

higher. Your time is way too valuable to stay stuck and we want to show you how to stop chasing unicorns, take an intentional approach to your talent strategy so you can make your next right hire. Let's get started.

Kimone Napier (00:58)
Welcome back to the Hire Breakthrough Podcast. I'm your host, Kimone Napier, and today we're tackling a leadership challenge that's more relevant than ever, how to lead equitably when the world feels uncertain. And honestly, let's just be real for a moment. When the playing field is still, it still isn't fair. I would say it like that. We're seeing companies quietly roll back their DEI initiatives. Leaders are struggling to retain diverse talent and at the same time,

teams are demanding more transparency, accountability, and real equity, not just performative gestures. So what does it actually mean to lead equitably when external forces, and that could be whether it's economic uncertainty, systemic bias, or shifting policies are working against you. So today I'm so excited, Chrysta Wilson of...

Wilson and Associates Coaching and Consulting is here with me and I'm so excited for this. So I'll tell you a little bit about Chrysta. She is a certified culture transformation consultant who has spent over 17 years helping leaders create equitable and joyful workplaces across the public, private and nonprofit sectors. So she's the perfect person to have this conversation with today. And today she's going to break down exactly what leaders need to do right now to ensure their teams don't just

Chrysta Wilson (02:03)
No.

Kimone Napier (02:23)
survive but thrive in this environment. So Chrysta, welcome to the show.

everything that's been going on in this climate, this episode is so needed. So the first thing I actually want to talk about is I want to just get started with some real talk. So, you know, we hear these terms, equity, diversity, inclusion all the time, but I want to ask you officially for our listeners who might not know what does equity in leadership actually mean beyond just diversity numbers.

or hiring quotas.

Chrysta Wilson (02:53)
Well, I mean, think it could be defined a lot of different ways. But if I was thinking about it just in a basic way, it is how do you as a leader look at your team as both the collective and then the actual individuals on your team and think of them and see them as human beings, because they are. And sometimes we see that our leadership workers as just cogs in the machine.

You're just here for the job and if you can't do the job, there's no use for you. But leading equitably means I look at the individuals on my team and I am examining what does Rebecca, what does Tim, what does Mark, what does Malik, what do they individually need so that they can reach their highest potential? And what Malik is gonna need is not what Debbie's gonna need, is not what Michelle's gonna need. And that's okay if it's different, if people are getting what they need.

So that's what is equal. People get what they need. But the equity is that the recipe of what each person gets is different.

Kimone Napier (03:55)
We're not getting a textbook definition. This is like real talk.

definition, breaking it down for anyone who is very new to this topic to really get a sense of what this is all about. Thank you so much, Chrysta. And the reason why I ask this question is because usually whenever I hear someone ask, you know, generically, like, can you describe what equity means? We typically get a textbook definition, but I think in terms of leadership, how you how you explained it is perfect. And I love the way you phrased it, because I'll even put myself in the hot seat, you

from when I used to work in very corporate settings, it often felt, it didn't necessarily feel equitable in terms of the way my superiors would treat me versus someone else. And I like how you said that we all have different needs. And I think to be a good leader, you have to recognize that each individual has different needs.

Chrysta Wilson (04:46)
Mm-hmm.

Kimone Napier (04:52)
I perform different than, some of my colleagues used to perform and what are my strengths might be weaknesses for my colleagues and vice versa. And it really changes the way that we should really think of leadership because I think in traditional corporate settings, it's really thought of just, overarching hierarchy. Like you have your supervisor, your manager, your director, senior director, and it's just very

Chrysta Wilson (04:57)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kimone Napier (05:16)
strict. It doesn't feel flexible. And I think right now, flexibility is what a lot of people are craving.

Chrysta Wilson (05:21)
Yeah.

I think so. And there's another component of equity and leadership, which is also the data does not lie. So we can have conversations about whether you agree with quote unquote DEI or whether you agree with equal opportunity, right? Or even the word equal. But you can look at an organization as I have and look at the data and data can show, wait a minute. How come only this group at a...

disproportionately is getting mentored and this group isn't. That doesn't feel fair. Okay, well, how can we make things more fair so that everybody has an opportunity to get a mentor if they want one? Right, now I could tell you what the data shows who those groups are that are not getting mentorship at the rates that's proportionate to other groups, but I'll just keep out that for a second. What I think about equity and leadership is how do you create conditions where it feels fair?

Like I'm gonna do this job and I'm gonna get paid and there's not somebody else who has less qualifications or less time on the job and they're making more than me. Right? It's this idea about is it fair? And how do we as leaders, almost I say like under a microscope, be paying attention to where there might be a lack of fairness or where there might be, where people don't feel that their voice is being represented.

Those are some basic human needs. I couldn't recall back in elementary school. And I think every human being, matter your gender, your race, your age, if you're in the United States, you have some experience of the playground. And you know what it feels like to get picked last or to be made fun of at school or to be called a name that's not one that makes you feel good. I know people called me one when I was little. I'm either going to tell it on your podcast.

Kimone Napier (06:58)
Mm-hmm.

Listen.

Chrysta Wilson (07:16)
So if we know that feeling and as a kid that was my catchphrase, that's not fair. That's not fair. Then how do we as leaders say, know what, not on my watch. It's not going to be no non-fairness on my watch. And that's ultimately what, you know, for anybody who's really talking about, you know, the old language of equal opportunities and DEI or whatever the language, that is equity and leadership. It's you saying, you know what, not on my watch.

Kimone Napier (07:23)
Yes.

I agree. I can't agree more. And

it just made me think there are many leaders that actually want to do the right thing. But I find here's where the problem is for some, not for everyone, but for many. They feel stuck with external forces and that could be union environments because I could tell you I've worked in, I think I've worked in at least two unions.

Chrysta Wilson (08:04)
Yeah.

Kimone Napier (08:09)
And it was very much a climate of like, you know, if you're in a unionized position, you might get in at a certain rate and then this person might not have gotten in at the same rate as you and so forth. it like, and no one necessarily knows and it creates like a hostile environment there. So I think external forces like that can come into play. And I think it's also budgets. It could be policies or even just executive pressure.

And I think often a lot of those things push against the equity efforts. I don't know if you have an answer for this, but what advice do you have for leaders who feel like their hands are tied?

Chrysta Wilson (08:40)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah, well, you know, I always try to play both these roles. How can you be both an optimist, but also a realist, right? So you can recognize that there are external pressures, right? So even right now, well, there was this law that has just come up. right now, I would say that things are uncertain and every day it's changing. So I'll say a week ago, there were bans on DEI, right? Now a court...

Kimone Napier (08:56)
Mm-hmm.

Chrysta Wilson (09:17)
has overturned it. By the time people hear this, who knows what will happen, right? There were executive orders that were banning DEI if you had federal funds or a federal department. And so I know folks, clients of mine or past clients who receive federal funds who were like, well, what do we do? Because whatever comes out of the White House, we still have a diverse population of students and faculty who want to feel that they belong and they're supported.

Kimone Napier (09:37)
Mm-hmm.

Chrysta Wilson (09:45)
What can we do? And so for some of their board and for some of their leadership, was like, well, we're not doing that anymore. We can't. And that's real, right? They could lose their federal funding. There are positions that have been created that's like with a fine tooth comb looking for anything that says diversity, equity, inclusion. And they've also said, and if it's a euphemism for that, flag it too. So that's real. But that doesn't change if you are an organization and you have a clear strategic vision.

of who you want to be and the experience you want your people to have, you find a way. And so I've done a lot of strategy, a lot of coaching with folks over the many of the past years because there were states that were doing this banning before 2025, but it does require strategy. And so that's what I would say. You've got to have a clear vision of who you want to be and what you want your people to experience. What's the culture you want them to be working in?

Kimone Napier (10:24)
for 20th July.

Chrysta Wilson (10:40)
And also then what are the structures that you can change in your organization? And so it becomes a game of creativity, but also a game of strategy.

Kimone Napier (10:47)
can't agree more and I find that many

organizations, no matter what size, really are lacking the strategy. And recently, I've done a lot of communication and content around this. And one of the things, and I've always said this, is that when situations happen like George Floyd, it caused a lot of people to be reactive.

and kind of jump on the DEI bandwagon. And then now, you know, because here in the US, our government is essentially, like you said, banning a lot of DEI initiatives and so forth. We're finding a lot of companies.

Chrysta Wilson (11:15)
Yeah.

Kimone Napier (11:27)
that were supposedly on the DEI bandwagon, you know, really pushing those efforts to the side. And it always makes me wonder, and I talked about this in a recent LinkedIn post, you know, talking about how, you know, DEI was, you know, people think of it and they thought it was the revolution. You know, I flat out really did say that on LinkedIn, but at the same time,

Chrysta Wilson (11:51)
Mm-hmm.

Kimone Napier (11:54)
It really wasn't the revolution. To me, it was a compromise that people really loved. And now we're seeing that even though this compromise is being rolled back. So if DEI wasn't the revolution, which we've established, I pose the question, what should we be building now? And got wonderful responses from that.

Chrysta Wilson (12:01)
Mm-hmm.

Kimone Napier (12:17)
I don't know what's your opinion on this, but what does real transformational change in leadership and workplaces actually look like? Post this, because the way we've thought about DEI four years ago versus now is rapidly changing. And I think we're going to need to come up with another solution. So if you have any thoughts or suggestions, I'm all ears.

Chrysta Wilson (12:43)
Yeah, I your question is so complex. You know, I had a client I was just meeting with last night and what they said was, we know that there's pressure for us to stop doing DEI because they're part of a group that has some federal funding. And they said, so we just want to know as we think about what we could do, how much is too little programming and what is just enough programming? What can we be doing, right? We want to keep moving forward with this work.

We want to keep figuring out how to deepen our commitment. And what I said is this is the trappings of, I think, the modern day DEI. I think we have to first recognize that in this country, we have never had an environment, a culture, a society, or even an organization where there was that fairness and equity for all. It's never existed.

Kimone Napier (13:32)
and can be free. Yes.

Chrysta Wilson (13:39)
We haven't had organizations where it's from, well, I shouldn't say never, but it's rare to find there's pay equity. So everyone gets paid the same for the same quality of job, experience, et cetera. We've never had, it's rare to find the workplace where we don't find entrenched biases in hiring. know, people want to talk about how DEI now is, it's about putting unqualified people.

Kimone Napier (13:43)
So everyone gets paid the same.

That's great.

So.

But nobody's talking about

them, right?

Chrysta Wilson (14:05)
in positions that they

don't deserve. But nobody's talking about all of the resume studies that have been done where they have put names on resumes that sound traditionally white European and names that sound stereotypically black and the same degree, jobs, clubs, et cetera. And the resumes that have names that will make folks assume it's a white candidate get callbacks for interviews at a rate astronomically

Kimone Napier (14:25)
Yes.

Chrysta Wilson (14:34)
higher than that of a black or Asian candidate. Right? So there are still barriers that exist today, no matter what we call the interventions. So for me, I think the first step of transformation is we actually have to tell the truth. Right? We have to tell the truth about what is actually happening. What are we seeing?

And what do we want to happen? What's our aspirational vision for the future? And most of my experience has been

Kimone Napier (14:56)
My experience has been we jumped to the

Chrysta Wilson (15:03)
We jump to the tactic, but not to the vision that we're trying to create. And I think that's the first step in my recipe for transformation, which is a culture change framework. The first step is envisioning the future. Four steps down, I do say tell the truth. That's actually a real step. We have to tell the truth, but that strategic visioning is really critical.

Kimone Napier (15:10)
group.

that is so powerful.

I know I asked a complex question, but you answered it in the best way possible. So thank you. Thank you so much for that. And you know, I had posted on LinkedIn, I want to say maybe it's like either, you know, two or three weeks prior to us recording this episode. And I actually talked about my personal experience with this. And a lot of the things you're saying, you know, are things that I even experienced, you know, nepotism.

You know, I've been in...

you of interviews and, you know, I've, you know, me personally, I really never have had like a terrible interview, but in interviews where I didn't necessarily get the role, I always asked for feedback. And there was a period of time where when I asked for feedback, it wasn't anything concrete. Your interview was amazing. You know, we like you. But when I was younger, I always used to hear, well, you need to, you know, you need to get a little bit more seasoned.

Is response that I would always hear and then sometimes when I would follow up like, you know a few weeks later or months later Just to see kind of what was going on. I always find and this was literally I want to say this is probably about maybe two years You know interviewing in this way. I always would find most of the time I would say probably 90 % of the time the person that they hired it was either a nepotism situation or it was

you know, someone that didn't necessarily look like me, which is fine. And when you look at the qualifications, it was never...

It was nowhere even close. And it always made me wonder. I was like, hmm, I wonder what was it? Is it because I'm coming in there with my natural hair? I've literally sat in interviews and I've sat in there and I've watched the interviewer stare at my twist outs or my braid outs and things like that. And then I always shift to look at them kind of like this.

Chrysta Wilson (17:00)
Mmm.

Yeah.

Kimone Napier (17:20)
to let them know like I can see visibly what it is that you're doing. You're not listening to me talk, but you're sitting here looking at my hair. And so, you know, sometimes I wonder about these things. And at the same time, I do think maybe I'm being naive about this. I do think a lot of leaders want to do the right thing, but sometimes I feel like their hands, you know, are tied. But tied in a way because I find that

Often there's like one person, and I know, and this is just from my experience, there's always that one person in an organization or very few that actually wants to promote change, but they're, and they want to lead equitably, but their company or their organization really isn't fully on board with it. And I don't know if you have words of what you would say to this person because

Chrysta Wilson (18:02)
Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

Kimone Napier (18:11)
You know, taking up that responsibility when your company is not backing you is a lot of work and it's not, it's not easy, especially in very corporate settings. So I don't know if you have any advice about that.

Chrysta Wilson (18:18)
Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, I do. You metaphor came to my mind. Say you were a mayor of a city and you look at the country, and I'm talking about any time period, but you look at your country and you could say,

I'm a mayor of a city, but I really want to change the country. The country could be better. That's an overwhelming undertaking, right?

Kimone Napier (18:39)
It's an overwhelming undertaking. It's not something I can feel sometimes

when you're inside of a big organization. I'm just one leader and this is a huge system. And so the excellent leaders that I work with is sometimes they want to change the whole system. You just have to change.

Chrysta Wilson (18:49)
That's somehow how it can feel sometimes when you're a leader inside of a big organization. I'm just one leader and this is a huge system. And so what I tell leaders that I work with is sometimes in order to change the whole system,

Kimone Napier (19:06)
Sometimes to change the whole system, it's what's within your, I call it locus of control. So maybe you can't change the whole organization,

Chrysta Wilson (19:06)
you just have to change. Sometimes to change the whole system, it's what's within your, I call it the locus of control.

Kimone Napier (19:16)
but you may have to take care of three people. So how do you demonstrate the authority of three, or third, it is? What it could look like if people have equal say, or their voice is heard, or in the meetings that you facilitate, there is...

Chrysta Wilson (19:16)
So maybe you can't change the board and the whole organization, but you manage a team of three people. So how can you demonstrate with your team of three or 30 or whatever it is, what it could look like if people have an equal say or their voice is heard or in the meetings that you facilitate,

Kimone Napier (19:36)
equity participation, meaning that everyone has an opportunity to share their psychological safety. When people share their ideas, even

Chrysta Wilson (19:37)
there is equity and participation, meaning that everyone has an opportunity to share, that there is psychological safety.

Kimone Napier (19:45)
if it's contradictory one, they're not going to experience persecution or retribution. So key. And so we've seen countless instances where there might be an organization over there, people would say, think there's a toxic culture. And then some people would be like, not my team. My team is great.

Chrysta Wilson (19:46)
meaning that when people share their ideas, even if it's a contradictory one, they're not going to experience persecution or retribution. Right? And so we've seen the countless instances where there might be an organization where there, people would say on faith there's a toxic culture. And then some

people could be like, not my team. My team is great. And then corporate leadership wants to know what's happening on that team. It's because one leader decided

Kimone Napier (20:06)
Yes.

Yeah. It's such a loaded, it's such a loaded statement. And what it made me personally actually think about is just even from a talent perspective was, I was going to say for a period of time, but I think even still now the turnover rate on even DEI teams were astronomically high and very much like that CDO, Chief Diversity Officer position, so much turnover. And I think it's, it's,

Chrysta Wilson (20:16)
Not on my watch.

Yeah.

Kimone Napier (20:44)
the pressure in like post George Floyd and events that's happened, know, tragic events that's happened like that, where companies I felt were being a little bit reactive. It was very much a situation where I feel they didn't necessarily have a DEI team per se, but what they, what I saw a lot of companies doing, they'll hire a chief diversity officer and they almost like the expectation was for them to come in and just fix it. And

Obviously, in many of those positions were people of color. And that amount of pressure, I can't tell you the amount of burnout that I saw from leaders in that position. Particularly one company that I remember consulting with, that CDO, she left that position, I think, within three months because it was so much pressure. And I think since we're in this situation right now where

a lot of companies are rolling back. The companies that are being more public like, hey, we still want to do these DEI initiatives. I think there needs to be a level of understanding that one person is not going to be Superman or Superwoman or anything like that. That it has to be an organizational wide effort in order to truly, to your point, get to their long-term vision. Like if you have a long-term vision of what you want this organization.

organization to look like from an equitable standpoint, there needs to be a level of buy-in too. what I fear too with DEI roles is just the level of burnout for those professionals. It's not an easy job and I'm sure you can attest to that.

Chrysta Wilson (22:32)
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, it was always a setup for failure from the beginning. So if you think about it, the organizations hired a chief of diversity, right, or whatever, you know, title that was in a similar name. But if you think about other functions like chief of HR, that chief of HR isn't responsible fully for the human experience, the employee experience within the whole organization, right?

Kimone Napier (22:42)
Yes.

Chrysta Wilson (22:59)
there's shared ownership and accountability for anybody that's a people manager. So it is distributed responsibility, distributed expectations and shared ownership across the organization. But often what happened when it came with the chief diversity officer, it was one individual who was holding the concepts of where can we build fairness in representation and a great culture.

in this organization so that no matter your identity, you have the opportunity to thrive and reach your highest potential. If we were to use that same HR distributive model, then every manager would have owned a diversity, equity, and inclusion function. They would have had their performance tied to those outcomes, whatever they may have been. And then it would have been an integrated goal and aspiration of the organization. Instead, that's not what happened.

In most cases, it was on one individual to own a change management function for the whole organization. And why I say DEI is a change management is because change management, without getting jargony, to me, it's helping an organization transform from where they are to where they want to be. And so it's transforming from being maybe less diverse or less representational or more...

less opportunities for certain groups to thrive, whereas others have more opportunity to thrive solely based on identity. There was one role trying to hold that for an entire organization that might be in multiple cities, multiple states, across the country, or God forbid, worldwide. It was a setup from a jump. And I think that's the failure we know from every change management expert book process.

It has to have distributed and shared ownership. And that's why it failed largely for organizations. They can't actually show outcomes, what was better enhanced, changed or improved as a result of their DEI efforts. Not because DEI sucks, because it didn't have the same kind of investment as it got, as other efforts got. And it's why people in those roles, most folks never lasted more than three years. Not because they didn't last.

Not because they burned out, the organization burned them out. And I don't think we talk about that distinction enough either.

Kimone Napier (25:20)
We really don't.

We really don't. mean, you know, as a consultant, just being on teams, you know, on the consultant side and viewing this, you know, from an overarching level, a lot of times I've had leaders come to me who are doing this work and there's no one that they can necessarily speak to in their organization. But because I'm a consultant, obviously they can speak to me and that's where it really gets raw and you really hear...

Chrysta Wilson (25:25)
Really not.

Kimone Napier (25:47)
the level of frustration and the burnout and the amount of stress and the amount of pressure. I mean, I even think from a health perspective, it was harmful for a lot of people with just all of that being just on you. It's kind of like, you know, they're coming at these DEI experts and expecting them to just fix the whole picture. And what amount of

Chrysta Wilson (26:01)
Mm-hmm.

Kimone Napier (26:11)
chronic pressure and the effects that can have on someone is just ridiculous. And what it makes me think about is that I think there needs to also be a level of accountability, not for the DEI expert or the professional, but for the organization. Because if you say this is what you're interested in, this is what you are envisioning for your company, then at the same time,

Chrysta Wilson (26:33)
Mm-hmm.

Kimone Napier (26:39)
What are you going to do about it? It's almost like what I don't understand is we talk a good game in terms of diversity, equity and inclusion, but at the same time, it's like leaving your DEI team or leaving your DEI experts, know, the, cast them to the wayside and don't even get me started on.

you know, through, you know, fitting that DEI function under human resources, because I can't tell you how I've seen that just go wrong, but I'll digress. I'll digress there. But I really think there needs to be a level of accountability for a lot of these organizations, because what I'm finding is when it doesn't work out, the blame is being placed on the DEI professional versus the organization.

Chrysta Wilson (27:00)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Kimone Napier (27:26)
And it has to be a collaborative working relationship in order to get to the end goal.

Chrysta Wilson (27:30)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly right. Exactly right. you know, like I said, you know, diversity, equity, inclusion, and there's so many other acronyms, part of it, belonging, accessibility, it is not a function of one or even a department. You know, it is about as an organization, who are we and what are we trying to create? And when we invite employees to come and work with us, what do we want them to experience when they get here?

Kimone Napier (27:55)
Yes.

Chrysta Wilson (28:06)
And if we're recruiting people from all over the world or the cities, we're gonna have diversity. that's not even a, diversity just is a truth, it just exists. So if you know diversity exists, then what is their experience of equity? Are they experiencing disparities? Are they experiencing inclusion? And how do I make sure that every manager is held accountable to our goals, whatever those goals are related to equity and inclusion, and also employees?

You could have performance goals for individuals to say, you're going to be measured on efficiency and customer service. And were you collaborative? Did you create a harmful work environment where people felt like they couldn't participate? You, you Tom or Marie are why the meanings felt psychologically unsafe because you roll your eyes and you clap back. You're actually chipping away and dismantling our culture psychological safety.

Kimone Napier (28:45)
Yes.

Ugh.

Chrysta Wilson (29:02)
That's when your performance review. Because now you're taking away from one of our culture elements. Like we could actually distill it down if we really wanted to be data driven and have this be an outcome that everybody owns. But instead, folks want to have Black History Month luncheons and Women's History Lunch book clubs. And I'm not knocking cultural celebrations, but Women's History Month book hub and luncheon did not ensure that women who want to mentor get one. That there's a professional development pipeline.

Kimone Napier (29:25)
Yeah.

Chrysta Wilson (29:31)
for gender nonconforming folk. The cultural celebrations that we often think for DEI don't actually get to the outcomes that people say that they want. A better company culture, high employee engagement, high performing teams. People see how their role connects to the mission and vision of the organization. People feel that they matter at work. And there's so much data now from Harvard Business Review and MIT Sloan.

the US surge in general that says we need all of that. That's not DEI. That's just good company culture and building the structures in place to make sure that the employee experience is a good one. So I think that's the pivot that I feel like unfortunately DEI is under attack. And so because it's under attack, people are saying, well, what should we call it? What should we be doing? And I think some of the conversations folks are actually having.

It's coming under scary and uncertain reasons why they're having these conversations, but I think they're good ones. Because now I'm having clients for the first time in years talk about, well, what do we want people to experience when they get here? And they're four years deep into DEI work. You know what I mean? What outcomes should we be aiming for? Well, I told y'all that three years ago. Y'all didn't want to listen. Now you're back because you want to talk about outcomes. So I think it's good sometimes pressure.

Kimone Napier (30:41)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Chrysta Wilson (30:55)
you know, can make diamonds. And so I'm hoping that that's what's going to be born, is some diamonds that lead to better experiences for workers.

Kimone Napier (31:00)
I agree and I can't even agree more because

the answer is not, you know, the fried chicken and watermelon luncheon.

Chrysta Wilson (31:08)
Yeah, and Ikea did do that. Ikea did do that. The Atlanta Ikea did do that for Black History Month in 2020. I think it was two or three.

Kimone Napier (31:16)
So There was like a school in

upstate New York that did that recently. And I'm like, this is not the answer. I mean, I love fried chicken like anybody else, but this is not going to get us to the vision. So ultimately, I can't agree with you more. But you did mention something about talent, and I'm so glad that you brought it up.

Chrysta Wilson (31:26)
Yeah. It really is not the answer. Yeah.

Yeah.

Kimone Napier (31:39)
Because, as you know, a lot of companies will say, I want to hire diverse talent. They struggle with hiring diverse talent. But I think even more, there's a struggle with actually retaining the talent. So I think, a great question is what are leaders getting wrong when it comes to keeping diverse employees engaged? And I think part of the answer to the question is, of course, you know, what we just discussed.

But I think there's something a little bit deeper there because especially I'd say for the past year or two, it's been a nightmare. And companies are finding they can't retain the diverse talent, especially Gen Z talent, they're having real difficulty. So I don't know if you can speak to some of the solutions for that.

Chrysta Wilson (32:11)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, you know, I just was writing about this on Monday. So I feel like it was a plant question. I actually do have something to say on this that I think really matters. I think the first thing that came to my mind though, when you said retain and recruit and retain, for many of us in our cultures, we have a saying, who all gonna be there? And the workplace is like that too. So if you're a company and you're trying to figure out how do I retain or even recruit, quote unquote, diverse talent,

Kimone Napier (32:32)
I'm sorry.

Chrysta Wilson (33:01)
We have choice. And so we want to know who are going be there. Meaning, who works there? Is it going to be safe for me? Am I going to be supported? Can I speak about the meeting and share my thoughts or will I be shut down? Who are going to be there? Are they going to be supportive? So that's a question to audit your culture. In my company, we have a tool called, if you remember science school, like the periodic table of elements. We have one called the periodic table of great culture elements.

Kimone Napier (33:18)
Yes.

love that.

Chrysta Wilson (33:27)
And it is 12 levers, 12 elements that a leader can examine to see, we have this in place in our culture? And I'm telling you right now, the way that people are in their choice of looking for work and staying, you're gonna wanna make sure that you are thinking about employee wellbeing. Is there room for innovation? How do we communicate here, right? Do we have inspiring and equitable leadership? And you can go to my site and get that free guide at getyourtransformation.com.

It's a great tool. You can get it for free. The second thing that I would say to your question is, you and I have a business. And one of the things in business that we, know, for many of us we've got trained on is what is your customer journey? And we're constantly thinking about the client, the journey, how they come to our business, how to recruit them to our business, how to keep them as loyal customers. And that client experience, keeping the customer happy, is something that is ingrained in us, even in the United States.

Being a consumer, we kind of feel like we have an edge. Like, well, I'm a consumer. know, isn't the customer always right? Because they know that for many businesses, we are constantly trying to think about how do we make the customer happy. And I think if companies want to retain great talent, because it's so expensive to try to replace and find, you've got to think of employees like customers. How do you think about, is my employee happy?

Kimone Napier (34:38)
Thanks.

Chrysta Wilson (34:50)
just like you would do your customer. Where are they in the journey? Are they gonna go to my competitor? Well, uh-uh-uh, what can I offer them to make them wanna stay? If we can figure out ways to be paying attention to our employee experience, like we do customer experience, things will radically shift. We have in business the net promoter score, and if you've ever gotten an email from somebody you bought, and it's like a little colorful scale at bottom of the email, and it says,

How likely are you to refer this company to a friend? Rate us on a scale of one to 10. If you're a business, if you're a corporation, if you're a government agency, a nonprofit, how certain are you, if you put that in an email to your employees, how likely are you to refer this job or this company to a friend or colleague? What would your employees say? Are they a one, a heck no?

Kimone Napier (35:19)
Yes.

Yeah.

Chrysta Wilson (35:48)
Or are they a 10, oh yeah, I got five people trying to get an interview in here. They slide me applications, you know, at the barbecue, right? But I think if we start thinking of employees and treating them like customers, it would fundamentally change how we view retention.

Kimone Napier (35:53)
then.

100%. And this is probably why so many of

them are not doing that, because they're scared of what their employees might say. I even see when a lot of companies do that annual survey, they're scared. And it's OK to feel that way, but you do the survey, you have the data. What are you going to actually do about it?

I find a lot of them, it's like very hush hush. Like they don't wanna like talk about what these results are because, it would force them to actually have to action. what's the point of you actually doing it if you don't wanna put in the work? Another thing with what you said, which was just so, honestly, it was just so thoughtful. It makes me also think there needs to be a level of,

Chrysta Wilson (36:24)
That part.

Kimone Napier (36:48)
training. And when I say training, I don't mean like, just like some one day workshop, but I think there needs to be a periodic ongoing type of for a lot of these middle managers or people who really have like direct reports. Because I say this is that I often find in those types of positions,

Chrysta Wilson (37:01)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kimone Napier (37:12)
They're the ones that's having a lot of these conversations with employees, right? You're meeting with your supervisor, your performance. If there's a problem, this is the person you go to. And so many times I see the really high leaders, like you were talking about, like your chief of this, your VPs, they're getting a lot of these trainings and that's great. But I see the problem where it's not trickling down to the middle with the senior directors and all of that.

And I think it's actually crucial for them because they have direct reports, often a lot of them. I've had managers who've had 20 something direct reports. And usually when I find there's a talent issue and there's a retention issue, sometimes they're burnt out one.

Chrysta Wilson (37:43)
Mm-hmm.

Kimone Napier (38:03)
but it's also like they feel that this is not necessarily my job to try to retain this person. And what I find is a lot of companies then they end up being more reactive than proactive. It's almost like when the person is putting in the notice, it's like, well, why, why you want to leave? And, you know, all of this stuff where the damage hasn't been done, a lot of the damage has been done. But when this person was, going through it,

Chrysta Wilson (38:13)
Mm-hmm.

Kimone Napier (38:29)
Nobody's trying to understand. A lot of companies, they're so rigid that, yeah, you get six days off in your first year. I'm just making this up. But you get this amount of time off and something catastrophic happens. And it's like, well, you only have two days of bereavement for a death.

Chrysta Wilson (38:43)
Mm-hmm.

Kimone Napier (38:49)
and this person is going through it. There's no flexibility. And I find it's instances like that, these minute details that cause people to feel like...

Chrysta Wilson (38:54)
Yeah.

Kimone Napier (39:01)
Okay, this is not the place for me. No one is understanding. I'm about to be out. every time somebody feels that way, you're losing out on your training dollars. You're gonna have to recruit again to what Chrysta said. Every time you recruit for a role, it's gonna cost you more money. And I don't feel like we're having that conversation enough.

Chrysta Wilson (39:02)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Kimone Napier (39:24)
Because when the person actually says, like, I'm ready to leave now, now you want to survey them as to why. And a lot of times they're shocked, like, well, I didn't know. And I'm like, how did you not know? How did all of these things slip through the cracks? So when you were talking about it, I thought to myself, I'm like, it needs to also trickle down because sometimes I think people think DEI.

training or in organizational development at this level, it's always thought of to be for very senior leaders. But there needs to be some type of strategy for it to trickle down. So I don't know if you have any, anything else to add, but that really became apparent to me as I heard you talking.

Chrysta Wilson (40:06)
Yeah, I I think that I hear this a lot. actually had a client a while back and they said, the organization is my client. And when I went to do this all staff retreat and I talked about some of the training I've done with the senior managers, some of the junior staff came to me during the break and said, it's not fair that the managers get all of this attention and support because they're also the ones I get.

Kimone Napier (40:19)
terms of bringing in someone. It's not fair in the middle of a terms game.

Thank you.

Chrysta Wilson (40:31)
extra time and they get the benefit of the doubt with flexibility in their schedules and all this stuff. So I do think that, you know, we're at a time, you know, they said that the great resignation was that was what was 2020 in COVID. I think that we're in a place where now is time to be, if I could be so bold, like this great re-imagining because we have now an aging baby boomer generation. We have a younger generation who has basically shared from the data.

Kimone Napier (40:31)
It was fantastic. So what do you think that, you know, what I would say, you know,

Thank

Chrysta Wilson (41:00)
They don't want to be in traditional management roles where they're managing a team of 30 and that traditional professional development pathway of like promoting, being a manager, being a director, et cetera. Like they're fine just getting, having a job if it has meaning and getting a paycheck and then going home and doing their passions. Like their work isn't their passion. And so that doesn't mean that we don't have to nurture and give people professional development, but we just have to be rethinking.

Kimone Napier (41:14)
Yes.

community.

every day, I think the future will be better.

Chrysta Wilson (41:27)
everything about the future of work. And I think what you just lifted up is just one example of that. Like we need to be making work more human. Like we all know that grief is not wrapped in a bow in two days. Sometimes it's just the logistics of getting from here to there is four days. You know what I mean? So I just think that we are in this time for leaders and this is an equitable stance. What do people need?

Kimone Napier (41:33)
Yes.

just the logistics of getting from here to there is really important. So you know what I mean? So I just think that we are at this time for leaders and this isn't an important stance. What do people think? It might be so, but it might be right.

it's...

Chrysta Wilson (41:55)
It

might be two days, but it might be five. And if they get their work done and their

Kimone Napier (42:01)
that point. Who's Chrysta? Okay, so y'all, if y'all didn't take notes, I think you're doing yourself a disservice because we talked about a lot of things and we dropped some real gems. So hit rewind if you have to because Chrysta gave us some words. This has been amazing.

Chrysta Wilson (42:04)
Ha ha ha!

Kimone Napier (42:19)
And I know people are going to want to connect with you. So before we wrap up, tell people where they can find you and how they can work with you.

Chrysta Wilson (42:31)
Yeah, you can find me at GetYourTransformation.com. That's where you can find my podcast,

which also has some great resources. You can find about events that we have coming up. We do in-person trainings in Los Angeles, soon to be Atlanta too, including our equity intensive coming up in the end of March. And on that website, you can also click around to find my consulting firm where you can find out how we can do training and coaching and strategy to help you build an equitable, but just a really great

Kimone Napier (42:38)
Los Angeles, some of the highlights of the tour including our equity and sex and co-

Yes, yes, yes. And I

am listening to this that there are many leaders who are going to be in need of, even if it's just a first step of trying to figure this out, because I know so many companies are suffering. So y'all, if you are serious about leading equitably and not just talking about it, please go and connect with Chrysta. We will leave all her information in the show notes. And of course, if you love this episode, please do me a favor, subscribe so you never miss an episode.

Leave a review because it helps more leaders to actually find the podcast and get help. And of course, share this episode with someone who really needs to hear it because trust me, this topic is something that not only every organization needs to hear, every leader really needs to hear. So until next time, stay tuned for the

Kimone Napier (43:48)
Are you ready to stop chasing unicorns and hire diverse, qualified talent, but you need help with the full hiring process? If so, be sure to visit HireBreakthrough.com slash scale so our team can help make your next right hire today.