Because We Can With NP Jeanine
Host of Because We Can with NP Jeanine focuses on inspiring and supporting women as prominent leaders in independent practice in health care. Listen to my podcast where I talk with special guests about creating an inspired career and business relationships you want. New episodes posted biweekly.
Because We Can With NP Jeanine
Ethical Considerations in Medical Aesthetics Practices with Denise Schaefer
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
Aesthetics can look effortless online, but the truth is messier and far more medical. We’re joined by Denise Schaefer, a veteran aesthetic RN, clinic owner, and longtime device trainer, to talk about what it takes to build a career that lasts while protecting patients and your license.
Denise walks us through the early days of medical aesthetics, when collagen injectables required skin testing and CO2 laser resurfacing came with serious safety concerns and intense downtime. We dig into how training used to work, why hands on device knowledge matters, and how today’s injector education has improved through deeper facial anatomy study and cadaver labs. If you care about natural looking Botox and dermal filler results, this conversation makes a clear case for conservative planning, honest consultation, and investing in skin quality, not just volume.
We also get real about the business of running an aesthetic clinic. We talk overhead, pricing misconceptions, why “$600 a syringe” is not what it sounds like, and the mindset shift nurses face when they become business owners. Denise shares her no nonsense take on ethical treatment planning, the pressure created by social media advertising, and what happens when clinics cut corners with questionable products and unsafe practices.
If you’re a nurse injector, a clinic owner, or a patient trying to choose a safe provider, you’ll leave with a sharper lens for credibility, training, and trust. Subscribe, share this with a colleague, and leave us a review to help more people find the episode. What’s one ethical line you think aesthetics should never cross?
Welcome And Why Denise Matters
SPEAKER_01I am so pleased to have Denise Schaefer here today with us. I think as a community across the medical aesthetics practice, there are a few people that I see as not only a provider, but a person that sets the standards and also is a bit of a trailblazer. Denise has been in medical aesthetics since the 90s. Her first 16 years she spent in two plastic surgeons' offices and was also a domestic and international trainer for medical devices. I will defer to Denise to tell us her journey on how she developed her clinic called USkin RN. But her continued goal is to establish long-term relationships with her clients based on her integrity, skill, and ethical treatment planning. Denise has so much clinical knowledge, including exemplary device knowledge. And the thing that I personally appreciate the most about her is her complete down-to-earth communication style. She has an honesty that is not always seen in our profession. And I really appreciated when she trained me. The kind of communication that she gave made me feel comfortable in that training session. Over the years, her experience and expertise has placed her as a leader in the industry. I personally have a huge respect for her, and I'm so glad that she agreed to join us here on the podcast today. Welcome. And welcome, Denise, to the podcast. How
From New Nurse To Labor And Delivery
SPEAKER_01are you?
SPEAKER_02I'm doing great. Thank you very much. And a beautiful Friday.
SPEAKER_01Oh, it is. We've been really lucky to get some really good weather uh of late. And then it all of a sudden really turned cold. Like the last couple of days has been super toilet seed days is what I call it.
SPEAKER_02Up down, up down, up down. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Okay. So let's start off with my first thing is that I always let I'd like to hear, because of course I've already Googled you and looked at all of your and then um gave a little bit of a tidbit to the listeners about who you are and where you came from. But why don't we start with telling all the audience a bit about yourself personally, whatever you feel comfortable telling me and professionally as a young Denise and your journey as you entered into the profession of nursing. Let's start with that.
SPEAKER_02Okay, so great. Hi, everybody. I am a young 65-year-old, almost going to be 66 in a few weeks, who still loves what she does. Uh, almost 40 years later, which is pretty amazing. Uh, I love what I can offer my patients. I think it's a gift that I've been given that I do treasure every single day. Uh when I'm not working, I have become a pickleball addict. Hate to say it. Really? I love pickleball. I can play it as much as I can. Two, you know, a couple of good hours is a good 10,000, 15,000 steps and good activity, a little bit of hits. So it's great. Uh, and I also play competitive golf still. So I've got my eye set on the Canadian seniors this year, the Canadian Min AMs, Ontario seniors. So I'm one of those sickos that likes to punish herself by playing competitive golf. So that's coming I like to do since I graduated from nursing. So I did graduate as a college nurse back in the old day where it was a two-year program combined, three-year program combined in two. We only got one month off, which was July. Uh, when I graduated back in 1980, uh, there were no jobs. We had too many nurses in Ontario. It was that time of weirdness. Uh, all my colleagues went off to London and Toronto and Hamilton, but I was a dumb one and got married when I was 20. So I was kind of stuck in town. Uh-huh. So I hassled the nurse uh manager at Cambridge Memorial every single day. I went there after I did a shift as a nurse in a truck stop uh a server in a truck stop every morning. So I had to pay the bills. And every day she saw my face and every day she said no. And on the third week of showing up, three weeks in a row every day, she finally said, Oh my God, I hate you. Yes, I'm hiring you. So she hired me. I got in as a casual RN and I floated all around, and then I ended up getting within a month a full-time position in an OB general med surge unit, which I loved. Uh, eight-hour shifts, which kill you. Decided from that path I wanted to do midwifery. So I went back to Mac and got my perineatology certificate and started to work towards my midwifery. Then I decided I needed more experience than what our hospital offered because it was very low risk, it wasn't high risk. So I then got a job at Grand River Hospital in labor and delivery. So I could take my advanced skills to work. And I did that for a long time. Um, and I started to go back to school to get my BSCN and uh it kind of got waylaid because I got pregnant. So that's kind of where I ended up, how my beginning of my nursing career began. And I think before I talk about it, I think one of the your questions later was I think key for anybody that I look to hire, they need to have a nursing background. They need to have worked for a few years, not just graduated nursing and become, I want to be a nurse injector. I think we learned so much as beginning nurses. We learn how to talk to people, basic nursing care, basic medical care. I think it's really important you have that background in your back pocket. I think it makes you a better uh nurse in this in this field. That's kind of what I think anyway.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, that critical thinking skill development that you get only by experience with patients. I agree totally with you. Totally, totally. Yeah, how long were you in labor and delivery before you come out?
SPEAKER_02I was nine years altogether before I left. Yeah, so a long time. So my daughter is now due to have a baby shortly. So mama's LD skills are gonna come out. So I'm waiting for her to get into labor and uh I'm gonna fly out to Vancouver and be there for the experience, which I'm quite excited about.
SPEAKER_01So well, and I have to tell you because my son just had a baby as well. Um, well, his wife did, obviously. But I can't believe the the like technology that they now like I remember, and I know we're digressing a little bit, but that's okay. Um, the the pump. She walks around, she has these little pumps on, she's got her shirt on, she's walking around all over the place. Meanwhile, we were hooked up to like a generator that was like yeah, things have come a long way.
SPEAKER_02I must say, I've very been very impressed with uh prenatal care in BC. It's a very they have a very slick system out there, so it's being very well taken care of. Yeah, so that's my next excitement for June.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Oh, that's gonna be so good. It'll be really excited. Yeah, so at what critical point in your life um did you move into
The Leap Into Plastic Surgery Nursing
SPEAKER_01medical aesthetics? And like what was that experience for you? Because everybody always knows or always wants to know what was your like has it changed? Is it different now? And I believe that it is. But what was your critical like hint?
SPEAKER_02Mine happened as a fluke, to be really honest with you. My when I stayed home with my daughter for a couple years, uh, my new neighbor across the street was a new plastic surgeon into Kitchener Waterloo. And he just moved from London, his wife was having their second baby, we became good friends. Uh, I was fortunate. My mom was kind of helping me out with my daughter. So uh he said, Why don't you come work for me? That was back in 1994. Uh, so I began working for him. So kudos to him. We did have a falling apart later in life, but that's life, like a like a bad marriage. Um, and uh he did take me from being an OB nurse to a plastics nurse. So I gotta say kudos to that. So that's kind of how I fell into the industry as it was just beginning because we didn't really have anything back then. We had uh we cut, he cut a lot, and we had collagen injectables. That's all we had. And collagen came from cowhide, and we had to pre-skin test people two times in a row, and then we'd inject it, but really we were just chasing lines, it didn't do anything, and it was so expensive and it didn't last very long. Uh, and then in '94, we got our first syringe of pyleronic acid. So that was kind of exciting. So that's kind of how I fell into it. I just it just kind of nature threw it at me, and I kind of engrabbed it and grew from there. So um it was a good transition, and I guess it was just meant to be. That's how I kind of look at it. Did you enjoy that change? Like, were you like sort of oh yeah, it was I love learning new stuff. Like, give me, I I am an avid reader, avid educator. I love conferences, I love PubMed, you name it. I'll read papers up the yin-ying. I liked I'm a Gemini. I like trivia and knowledge. The more I can learn, the better off things are. Uh, a funny story about that. Uh, he got the first CO2 laser, resurfacing laser, which was the big beast in the day. Um, he gone to a conference, came back, bought the laser, comes back, and he and it's sitting in the OR. And I'm like, oh God, what do we got now? And he hands me the binder and it's about six inches thick. He says, Take it home and read it. We're doing a case tomorrow. I went, oh, okay. So I took it home and I'm reading it, and I'm leading about endotracheal fires, uh, safety precautions. I'm thinking, uh, I need more training than just hand me off this laser dude. Let's turn it on and do it. Because there was such a scary thing. You could set the building on fire if you hit the oxygen. I'm like, oh crap. Uh so we did our first few cases together, and he became uh a trainer for the company, and then I would accompany him and then coherent back then, which is now Clarion, we're local to Kitchenware Loo where I am. And I said to them, You just can't leave a laser in someone's office like this and say, you know, have fun with it, good luck. So that's how my training career became. I started being a trainer for them on the side. So when they sold a laser, because he was considered an expert, I was his pseudo-expert. I went and handheld the physicians through their first three or four cases because a real CO2 resurfacing is intense. Yeah. Not only just the laser, but the post care. They look like the walking dead, and there's a lot of care. And uh, it was a really interesting time with lasers.
SPEAKER_01Well, and you have to learn how to manage that that expectation within the patient. Oh, god, yeah, for sure.
SPEAKER_02So aside from people will never do another one after they did one, they would never do another one. Oh, really? Oh, yeah, it's too much downtime, it's massive. Yeah, a lot of downtime. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And so aside from the fear of the well, getting a new laser and resurfacing people's faces, what was your main fear when you went into medical aesthetics for the injectable side?
SPEAKER_02Well, you know, we were back then we were all our training came from the companies. Oh, because there was not what we have today at all. So if you were learning a new filler, it came from the filler company, the wrap that they had or a position that they had. If you were learning a new laser, um, I didn't start injecting tox until it got well, he kind of got we got into about 2001, 2002, but legally we weren't starting injecting the guys outside the KOLs, where like 2002. So we were kind of dabbling with it, but we couldn't really do much. So 2004, I would say, was the jump off for us into injectables, and it was uh scary a little bit. And a personal experience that I had, Jean Cruthers, everyone knows that name out there. She was the queen of Botox creating it. And I was doing training at the time, and I was in her office usually once a week in Vancouver, and she offered to treat me with Botox. I thought, oh, okay, because I hadn't really, I was younger then, I didn't really need much. So she sat me down in her chair and she did my whole forehead and everything, and it seemed like a lot. And then a week later, my eyebrows basically she'd laugh at this story now because she knows what happened. My eyebrows basically sat on my eyelashes. So I had full brow to both sides, and I was sleeping with tape on my eyebrows at night because I just felt so awful. So I thought this was the worst product ever invented for the people. I thought I'm never learning to do this product. This so that would have been before it was released. That would have been the early 2000s, I guess, because she was kind of playing around with it. And uh, so I went
Early Lasers And Learning The Hard Way
SPEAKER_02back two weeks later and she goes, Oh my. I go, Yeah, not too good, Jeannie. She felt very bad about it all. And then a month later, she thought she felt bad. So she said, Let me do your lower face. I went, No, I don't think so. For this talks kind of thing. She said, Well, I feel so bad the first time. Let me fix it up. So she, you know, you got strong DAOs, we need your jawline, we'll do that. Honest to God, Jeannie. She did it again, and I was slurring. And I was at that time giving talks across Canada for clarion to new GPs who want to get into a static medicine. I'm on the podium going, hi, Anginie Sara. And I'm gonna talk to you about the static medicine.
SPEAKER_03Oh my god.
SPEAKER_02So that was a little scary for me.
SPEAKER_01So I did not jump on the wagon initially, but yeah, uh decided that I really needed sorry, I was gonna ask you how you were training at the beginning um and teaching people the techniques were completely different, right?
SPEAKER_02Like how they approached about We did not know near as much as we know now. I mean, I was very fortunate that I worked in the OR with a plastic surgeon. So I got to be inside faces and body parts a lot. Uh, I think as we, you know, we'll talk about it, but I think the advancement of doing cadaver labs and more in-depth learning has really taken our level of knowledge and experience to the up level. Because I got that privilege of being inside people's faces when I was learning how to do all these different techniques, but not everybody does. So I think the ability to get to a cadaver lab and you, you know, for learning for new people, they're very expensive, but they are worth their weight in gold because you really learn that everybody is not the same under the skin. And when it anatomically where we think something is, guess what? You're gonna get a surprise. It's gonna be somewhere else. So I think the more exposure anybody can get to that environment. Uh, and a kudo to Sebastian Cotifano, just released his own book on facial anatomy, and it's only 68 bucks. I think everybody should buy this freaking book. And Sebastian, if you ever listen to this, I want to kick back for that. But uh I love his cadaver labs, but I mean, I've got my one on order. I mean, a $68 investment from a Sebastian Cotifano cadaver. Uh, I think it's uh it's a great it's a very cheap investment in your career for sure.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. And I'm I'm pretty sure he's got better things to do than to listen to my podcast, but I would be honored if he did. And I would be honored if he didn't ever say never a kickback. You know, the internet is a funny thing, it spreads things everywhere, right? So yeah, yeah, that's awesome. And I do agree with you. Anytime anybody can get a chance, even if they can't afford to go to a cadaver lab themselves. There's a couple that are online, uh, one through the University of Michigan, um their uh their facial anatomy lab, they do uh YouTube videos and they're actually really, really oh, that's great. Yeah, and they put you to sleep. Well, they don't because sometimes those ones that are online, it's like, and now we will go into the and you're just like, but he actually is quite engaging.
SPEAKER_02So I've seen a couple people feign in cadaver labs too. So maybe for those people that might be a good way to step into it. Um, yeah, I think I've done six cadaver labs now, and I, you know, and I I think I know a lot, but I still learn something every single time. The interesting thing, I was telling someone else in my practice about it the other day, and all my cadaver labs have only had one female donated head. They've all been male.
SPEAKER_03True.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so there must be a lot more male John Does out there than females. Because one time we were doing one for CSASN, and I brought one of my staff out and I was helping set up the cadaver lab, and I saw one of the heads was a female. So I said to her, when you get into the lab, you're going to that one right there, because you could tell by the upper lid writed, because men don't get the writed lines like the barcode line. So I said, All the other ones in the room are males, grab that female head. So that was the first female in all my cadaver labs I have ever seen, which is interesting.
SPEAKER_01So yeah, I never, you know what, until this very moment, and I've done a few cadaver labs over the years, and and out of like uh one time we had like 15 heads in, and there was not one female.
SPEAKER_02I know it's weird, eh?
SPEAKER_01But I never really thought that through.
SPEAKER_02I don't, I don't I guess there's more John Doe's out there probably than there are female Jane Doe's. So yeah, yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_01So at what point did you so you were working with the uh the plastic surgeon, then you started to kind of do a little more in the industry as far as training, and at what point did you go? You know what, I'd like to have my own shingle out there saying so how that happened.
SPEAKER_02So that happened a little bit later. I was working for Clarion at the time doing their training, and then uh that kind of uh ended its career. I was still doing some ejectables kind of on the side a little bit as well. Uh, and then I started doing international training for Cyton. So that was amazing because I got to travel around the world and get to so many. I think I wrote down, I think I would do 10 countries and 25 states, United States. So I got to see a lot of practices, what worked and what didn't work. Uh, and then as as I left Clarion, I went on my own. So I then I opened up my own shingle and I hauled my ass to oops, sorry, uh to a whole bunch of places to get work. So I was one of those nurses traveling with a big suitcase with my medical director, and I was working out of probably eight to nine different places. Uh, and then my kitchener patient said, like, are you gonna make a home here? And then I finally kind of stopped doing the traveling and opened a shingle here. So I did work for one other plastic surgeon in the interim. I'm not gonna discuss that one because it wasn't a very positive experience. And he's the reason that I ended up on my own after we uh had again a divorce marriage. So he's in kudos to him. He's not my favorite guy, but uh he did push me to really go on my own own. And that was the best thing ever did. And that was 18 years ago now.
SPEAKER_01Well, and sometimes I find, and as I've learned, and I've I've met a lot of different independent practitioners, like nurses in independent practice, there's a point where they feel that um now you start to be confident in your own capabilities, that you're um being tied to somebody, a prescriber or even like a hospital. All of a sudden you feel like, you know what, I can do this independently. And that's that's a bit satisfying. What's the most satisfying part of that for you? Would you have said when you went into it? What did you feel like about?
SPEAKER_02Well, I was scared crapless because you know I had
Botox Beginnings And A Humbling Mistake
SPEAKER_02to pay the bills, but I wanted the ability to kind of direct patients to the care I thought was necessary for them rather than feeling that I always had to do an upsell or an up push or anything like that. Um, every time I see a patient, I think, okay, this is their main complaint. Where I worked in plastics, we had to upsell. That's how Allergan taught us. No offense to Allergan. Tell them everything that's bad about them so that they want to do everything. Well, I found that actually turned people off. If they come in just get their eyes done and we tell them they need a facelift, their brow lift, they need a filler, they need all this stuff, they look and go, ah, that wasn't my thought, right? So for me, it's more to win them over with one thing that really bothers them the most. And when I became independent, I could deal with that. So, okay, you you don't like your frown lines or you don't like your small lips. We can deal with that. You build trust with your patient, they understand that you're got you they have you and you got them. And that's kind of how I look at it. And I kind of look at that if I was sitting in the chair and this is my dollar, how would I want it best spend? So, you know, yeah, they may want something else, but sometimes that isn't the way that it actually fixes. So for me, I kind of got the call to shots after all my experience. And I think as a newer injector, that's the scary part because you don't really know everything. And we always say if you only want hammer, you only have one nail. Where you know, now there's more abilities to do different things. Like filler and botox don't fix everything, they don't. Hence the name my business is your skin RN because I really believe the canvas is the most important part. If you don't have good looking skin, doesn't matter how much fill and botox you put in your slab, you're still gonna have crappy looking skin. So you need to invest in the skin stuff. And I found when I worked in plastics, it wasn't so much about that, it was more about cutting and filling up and not giving them great skin, unless they owned some lasers and stuff that did that. So for me, I wanted to be offer a different perspective and I wanted the control. I guess ultimately I'm a control freak, Janine. That's where it comes down to.
SPEAKER_01That's what makes you a really good business person, is being having your hands on it, right? Because you see people who are hands-off business owners, and the everything's happening, and there's a little bit of chaos in there. Whereas if you're totally invested and involved in your own business, you have that commitment and you evaluate things differently than if you've got 10 different people running their own show in there. Yeah, and that actually leads me to my next question, which is as a female business owner, what qualities would you say um can that need to be well developed uh when you start in this area of practice as being a business owner? Because we're trained and socialized to be in the hospital. There is nothing in our nursing classes that teach us how to be business owners. And so I think that's what I'd really like to pick from you is that from your experiences, and some of them may have been like from things you learned the hard way or through hard knocks. Um, what qualities do you think makes um a good businesswoman? And what should people be really honing out when they start their clinical practice?
SPEAKER_02Uh that That's obviously a loaded question. I have this tattooed on myself. It's the word patience. Yep. Not patience as in a patient that we treat it. The actual word patience, because I think that's really key. And every day I have to do that. My golf, my pickleball, life, my kids, everything. Uh, you have to have patience and you have to be a dog and with a bone. The banks don't want to give you money. So if you're out there starting your own thing, unless you've got a lot of family wealth, you're going to have to find your own pockets and dig deep to set up and do your own thing because the banks don't hand you money anymore, especially being a female. Uh, they you got to earn it. So whatever you're putting into the business is coming out of your own pockets. So you need to be ready and prepared for that. Because this is not a cheap industry. Everything medical is expensive. Uh, so I would say that for sure, being aware that it isn't going to be a freebie getting this going. It's going to cost some money and it's going to set you back and it's going to freak you out. So patience, patience, patience, because it will hopefully pay off. Although there are a lot of clinics starting to go under right now because that's another issue, too. But I think as a business owner in aesthetics, too, you really need to know the aging face and all the things you can do with it. So again, your basic anatomy, your basic understanding of facial anatomy and aging face and skin. I think skin is really important as a business owner if you're getting into this industry. If you don't understand skin itself, you're not going to do well because there's a lot of facets to skin. So I would say that. What else I make a note? Strong nursing schools, I think, are key. Being an empathetic person too, and being able to listen. And that's something I still have to work on a lot. Uh, I'm learning how to do articulate talking now, because after being 65. Yeah, it's kind of an interesting little tool. It's learning how to integrate your listening with your talk back and not just giving a straight up answer. It's kind of analyzing a little bit more. Anyway, it's another topic, but I'm working on that. Um what else?
SPEAKER_01That'll be that'll be something I'll be down a rabbit hole on at two in the morning. I'll look that up. I've never heard that before.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I I think having it, you need to have a tough shell because you're gonna take a lot of bangs. Like it's it's not gonna, it's not like a piece of pie, it's cut and it's easy. It it is a it is a traveled hard road. Yeah, uh, it takes a lot to kind of build a business and it's patience, it's perseverance, and uh, you know, ready for some ups and downs because it's not easy. Yeah, I mean, my own personal growth from being on my own to having a larger practice with staff and mentoring and everything, and then getting burned by those staff, which does happen, and now I'm kind of back to being smaller again, which I'm actually much happier about. I mean, uh somebody just posted a really cool Instagram post the other day, and I might steal part of it was not everybody wants to be an influencer on Instagram. I don't care if I'm a big influencer on Instagram, I just want my patients to come like me, do me, see me, feel me, and be happy, right? I thought I really liked that. That was great.
SPEAKER_01So and there's different, there's enough room in the sandbox for everybody, and everybody can have their own sort of defining features, and that's actually what makes you special to your patients is the fact that this is who you are, and this is how I'm gonna manage you. And then somebody else may want to be the influencer and have that as their calling card, and that's absolutely okay. It just may not be what's in my wheelhouse as far as what I put a priority on as a business person. And I agree with you. I think you have to be very, very willing to put forth that added effort. This isn't a 12-hour shift that you get to go home and forget about it.
SPEAKER_0224-7, seven days a week. If you own a business, it never goes away. I mean, you know, I've cut back my hours now, I'm at that luxury stage where I can do that. But you know, the days I'm not here, my phone is still on, my computer's still open, I'm still talking to patients, I'm still doing bank stuff. It it inner, you know, social media, it never stops. So, you know, if you've uh got a family and they're younger, uh, you know, you it's a lot. It's it's a it's it's a business, man. It's you know, it's your own little Tim Hortons you're running. So it's it's a lot. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, and I think in medical aesthetics, one of the
Anatomy, Cadaver Labs, And Safer Injecting
SPEAKER_01things that happens is people, um, nurses, younger nurses, will um, they know what they pay to get, you know, lips done or cheeks done or something like that. And they see that as a cash win. Like if it's $600, they get that $600. But what they forget or they haven't really thought through is that rent comes out of there, hydro, Wi-Fi, your new product that you have to buy, your gauge, your needles. And they haven't done that much.
SPEAKER_02Your insurance, your medical director, your advertising. So when you look at $600, your cost on that is $270 or $260 or $169 or whatever. Yeah, you may have made $400, but I guarantee you're gonna take home less than $100 out of that one syringe if any it to the profit side of the margin. The rest is all going to pay everything off.
SPEAKER_01We're not doing snow angels on their bed.
SPEAKER_02The one thing that I the one thing I do miss in our industry, and you know, we you start a little bit after me, but I miss the collegialness of everybody. Uh, you know, back then we would all chat, get together, and learn from each other, and I find it's a lot more cutthroat now. Um, there's no having your back anymore between unless it's a close colleague that you know. I I do miss that. Um, you know, you you really are flying solo out there now because the guy around the corner is trying to cut his prices to get at you and steal your clients, and you know, people trolling your patients on Instagram trying to steal them. It it's uh it's a different world now. It really is.
SPEAKER_01And I think that's evolution in any any up-and-coming business. Like if you look at something that's a brand new business or a brand new technology, there's going to be 45 other people mimicking and um, and yes, uh, the greatest compliment is somebody that copies whatever and all of that, but it's hard to run a business in the face of people who are very much trying to, you know, stand up and take over versus recognizing that we can all work together, we can all be in the same industry. There's enough, you know, sand in the sandbox for everybody to build a sand castle. And that's I think that's actually a cultural thing, right? Like it set that culture within yourself that you're not gonna play those games and you just stick forward with it. And um, I don't change who I am based on somebody else. I still act the same as me, no matter what. And I think that makes you that and that's what I admire about you. I think I said that in the intro was about the fact that I find I know that I'm gonna get an honest answer. I know you're gonna be very straightforward, you're very down to earth, you're not playing games, you're just straightforward. And that that your patients will love that. Like they love when they know that they're going to that you've got their back. Um, your colleagues know that you've got their back, that you're gonna stand up for them, that you're gonna be part of that. You're happy to help with them. And I'm sure that makes you a very, very good educator as well.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I mean, that's the fun part of this job is educating your patients because you know, they learn a lot of stuff on social media now that they think is the best thing. And then they come in and I go, Yeah, okay, let's talk the real truth here now. Okay. Uh, show me the picture you're looking at. Okay, though these are filtered and yeah, and the angle's different, and she probably has eight syringes in her face, and your budget is one. Yeah, okay. So, you know, there's a realistic point of view that you gotta bring them down from the clouds. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And when you're interacting with other nurses as an educator or a mentor, and you're talking to them, um, is there any significant like things that you tell them, like pearls of about education that you know you suggest to them, anybody starting or wanting to start in the industry?
SPEAKER_02Um, well, I think the more education you can get, the better. And there's certainly a lot of it out there to choose from. And there's some good online stuff now, good meetings to go to, although, like everybody, I'm trying not to go to the US right now for meetings. Uh, I miss two of the ones I usually go to because I I, you know, no offense to anyone American out there. I just don't want to give them any more money. We have a little place in Florida, and that's as much as I'm donating to the US culture right now. Um, so I education, education, education, I think is so important. Uh, and not just in our business, but actually the business side. So stepping outside the box and looking at, you know, some business online people to review and listen to podcasts on business stuff, how to manage people, how to do all that. Because podcasts are a great way to learn in a car when you're driving around, and driving takes forever now, everywhere. So you certainly have more time in your car to listen to some great podcasts. And some a lot of the guys have some real key opinion leaders out there, and you can learn a lot from these people who've also been in the trenches and dug themselves up, right? And maybe look at things a little differently than you do. So I think those are fabulous ways to learn.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, podcasts are great. I drive to Sudbury for a clinic once a month, and um, and I listen to a couple of podcasts on the way up and a couple on the good podcast time there, yeah. It's a great, it's a great way to do some learning. A lot of times, what it um those types of podcasts do is make me think, like even if they're not even in medical aesthetics. It's that I'm thinking about um business in a way that I was never taught to think about it because we are civil servants, we'll call ourselves in what we were trained. And so that makes it really um, really important. I agree with you on that about trying to really expand your knowledge as much as you can and keep really focused on yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Also, what's coming up in the world, because uh some of these guys have access to some of the really bright minds out there that's coming up in our industry and health-wise for our patients, what they're also seeing out there. So, uh, a couple of my favorite ones are Diary of a CEO, Steve Bartlett. He has some amazing guys on there, like some really top-ranked science guys, like all the new stuff about peptides coming on that's been on recently. GLP stuff, which we're all dealing with our patients with weight loss. Uh, and you know, these kind of things. And then from an aesthetic point of view, we're discussing inside aesthetics, is probably one of my favorite ones. Uh, they just went to an app now. Uh, so for their Patreon group, uh, I need to get on that because I'm part of that. Another one that I love is uh the scalpel of truth from a business side of stuff, Lisa Krause. She's been in the industry as long as I have. She has a foul mouth, like I have. Uh she's very down to earth. She's uh she's she's a go-getter and she sheds no tears, let me tell you. And she has a Patreon group and it's very business focused. So for girls setting up a business, it's like and her, they're short, they're only 20 minutes, so they don't kill the time. Uh, but she talks about everything. Uh and she's Canadian and it's awesome. So she looks at it from a Canadian point of view. Uh, things, you know, how to do memberships, how to do pricing, how to do staffing, how to fire staff. Uh, it's it's probably one of my other favorite podcasts. Yeah. Can you remind me what her name is? Uh her podcast is Scalpel of Truth, and her name is Lisa Krause. Shout out to Lisa as well. And her her Instagram is the bitchin' beautician.
SPEAKER_01That's so great. I love her already.
SPEAKER_02She's based in Calgary. Yeah, she'll really like her, Janine. She's uh she's a straight from the ship uh uh hip shooter. That one, no, that's so you gotta be comfortable with a lot of F-bombs because a lot of those fly out too. But yeah, she's it's it's another great from a business point
Going Independent Without The Upsell
SPEAKER_02of view for running a clinic. Uh, I refer everyone that's looking at a clinic, listen to all our podcasts. I can guarantee you'll get something out of each single one she does.
SPEAKER_01Oh my gosh. Well, now I have something to do on my way to Sudbury. That's really good. But uh no, and and kind of circling back on that as well, you've had a chance to kind of go back and forth between different provinces, meet different people, spend time, really create a really good network of people that you enjoy, like and now you know her, like you know of her, you like her style. And I think that we you had said about um the fact that there everybody's in silos now. And we really I agree with you on that, and that we need to we need that where you feel really comfortable listening to someone or talking to somebody, and and that you can ask them questions or you can learn things from other people, and that's okay. And it doesn't mean that they're gonna get a bigger piece of the pie than you're gonna get, uh, because the business life uh does create that anxiety, especially now with the Instagram, and people are like, I don't have as many friends as that person, and oh my god, she posts all the time, and it put creates a lot of business anxiety for uh for the injectors, I think. Yeah, I agree.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I have a weird thing with Instagram. I mean, I I've gotten the habit of trying to post every single day now. I do a real you know, 60 seconds of fun and glory. Um, and it's helped me a little bit get out of my own shell, which I'm fine with, and it's a little informative and trying to make it educational and a little bit businessy, but you know, there's uh social media is another hole. We could do a podcast just on social media, and where our own colleges sit on social media gets me going as well. Uh, between the College of Nurses, the CNA, and all that kind of stuff. Nobody's step enough to do any regulation with all this stuff, and it drives me crazy. Yeah. So I don't know if you're aware, but Australia has now cut out all social media advertising for physicians and clinics so they cannot post before and afters anymore. They can't do any consumer pricing stuff, they can only do educational ones. So that's really done a big thing for them. Um, I don't know if we'll ever get to that stage. I would love it, did the playground becomes fair again, and it you got to get patients the old-fashioned way. So I don't know. We'll see how the next few years will evolve out.
SPEAKER_01Well, it'd be neat to it would be not neat, it would be a good idea uh to tighten up the misrepresentation. So filters and things like that gives a misrepresent representation and false advertising. When and so I think that is an area definitely where they can like tighten up and really put some regulations. But I know a lot of people really talk, and as you said, we could do an entire podcast because this is like me. I could get up on a soapbox about this, and everybody who's listening to this is oh, don't get her started, right?
SPEAKER_02I know, I'm the same way. I have again patience on my arm. I go, Oh no, step back to the patience.
SPEAKER_01I love to look at I I love looking at Instagram uh posts that are creative that I can tell based on their Instagram posts that they have totally followed the rules and the regulations, and I love it. It's like, oh my god, they totally did that. That was great.
SPEAKER_02Like I, you know, I slide out the rules a little bit sometimes. I don't put pricing on because we're not really supposed to do that. And you know, everyone that belongs to the college of nurses should read the independent nurses uh, you know, guidelines. It's very specific. Is it stuck still in the 80s? Yes, it is, because that's when everybody was a foot career. The only reason they created that was for foot care nurses. That's really what that independent nursing was for. Can't sell skincare products. I mean, when you look at it, I think really come on, let's wake up and get get almost into this century, please. So yeah, I tried to get on I tried to get on the board for the college and I got turned down because I thought they really needed someone with our expertise in there, but no, you know, they pick someone with all these credentialing behind them who aren't in active duty, kind of so to speak. So yeah, didn't get to get to win that battle.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it does make it very hard because nobody really knows. Like, so if you look back in the disciplinary hearings, because I do, I apparently have no life.
SPEAKER_02And so I know we all I think we all have a cup of cup of tea and read through them all. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01And the 2017-2018, there was a disciplinary on on skincare selling, and and it's it never really defined it, although it I find it interesting that it said that they disciplined because of direct sales of skincare products, but there was no definition that somebody could learn from that. Like what was it that they were doing that was considered valuable uh that required discipline? And that leaves a little bit of a misunderstanding of where do we sit on this and where should we be doing on this? And that clarity would be very, very helpful a hundred percent, because we have changed the entire evolution of this industry is changing based on the fact about technology and the fact that, yeah, when you look back and the last change was in um 1994. On the it's like, okay, maybe we should rewrite this.
SPEAKER_02Well, we even we haven't even started then. Aesthetics hadn't even started again. All those guidelines were established for foot care nurses. That's that's where they all those independent guidelines was for foot care nurses.
SPEAKER_01What do you think is the biggest change that's been in medical aesthetics? Like the biggest change.
SPEAKER_02Oh boy, uh product-wise or worldwide.
SPEAKER_01Um, I don't, yeah, I don't really have a preference. I I'd like to know what you think has changed the most.
SPEAKER_02I think the internet really changed everything, period, from everything being much more accessible for our patients being Googlize with Dr. Google and Chat GPT, and uh which I think is good patient education. I like an educated patient in my chair. If I already know they've Googled me and everything and they've done the research on what they think they want and need, that makes my education
The Real Costs Of Owning A Clinic
SPEAKER_02process for that patient much easier to manage, unless, of course, they're off on a tangent, which they shouldn't be. But I think social media and the internet has really changed our business a lot. Uh, I think it's just made people more aware that it's out there, that it's normal, it's acceptable. We're getting away from looking like a freak now. Thank God. We're getting back to naturally. My sign up there says age well with us. Uh, that's how I look at it. Let's age well, but don't look like a freak isoid. There's always going to be the freaks out there. Uh, but I don't treat those people. They could go to someone else and not sleep at night. Those people freak me out. I want to go to bed and have a good night's sleep. So I would say the internet and social media has really changed how we do business and how we're viewed as business providers.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. And what would you say are the barriers now? Like things that are preventing us from as nurses or as providers in medical aesthetics. What are the the main barriers that we're hitting up against right now?
SPEAKER_02Um, I think I still have to go back to social media. I think it provides a barrier of safe providable treatment, uh, and that people are ethical. I'm finding we're losing the ethics in our business. That's for me, uh I I've always been ethical straight shooter, you know, you know, no fluffy coating, candy colored world kind of thing. I we're providing medical treatments. It's we're not a we're not a spa. We're not doing facials and waxing. We're doing things into the skin that can cause permanent harm. You could blind somebody, uh, you know, you could cause a permanent disfigurement with a laser or device. I think that it looks too airy-fairy out there. I think people have to realize that there are some repercussions for bad providers. And we're seeing more and more of it now. I mean, uh that you probably saw the trauma star with the two girls that were on ICU here in Kitchener Waterloo. Did you see that one? So one of them was my previous patient who stepped out of the box and decided to go for cheap Botox and you know, bit her in the behind, and uh who's very regretful now that she did that, um, wants to come back for Botox again. And I kind of said, I my NP and I, we do not feel comfortable injecting you with uh a cleared product because I don't know what systemic response you're gonna have in your body from this leftover stuff you couldn't breathe for for a month and a half. Um, that kind of thing, you know. And then the clinic in Massachusetts that the girl uh running it said she was a nurse, no one checked her out, ran two clinics and made a million and a half dollars a year, ordered all their products off Alibaba. Seriously.
SPEAKER_03Really?
SPEAKER_02They ran their clinic for a year and a half. Everything was ordered from Alibaba. So now they have lumps and bumps in their patient everywhere. There's lawsuits up the yin yang. She might go to jail for up to 20 years. For they said, so you know, that kind of stuff is scary to me. So well, and he seemed to be more liberal with doing shit like that. I'm like, oh my God, I just wouldn't even think about that.
SPEAKER_01And it's a super barrier for our patients become because they come in with this fear now because of people that are out there not practicing at an ethical and responsible way. That puts it makes it harder for us as well.
SPEAKER_02You have to you have to prove yourself, and you've got to prove to them that you are qualified, you are doing ego like you know, legal products in Canada. I don't do any really off-label stuff here. I don't mix and match my RADS with my PRP. I know I want, I like my nursing license and my MP likes her license. We like to do things straight up. Doctors can do it, you know, they're a little more leeway with physicians. If physicians get into trouble, then they get into trouble too. Uh, I just want to provide safe, effective care for my patients. It's ethical. And I think we're stepping away from that a little bit. And I I hope that's my one big thing that I see is the ethicalness of our businesses deteriorating a little bit.
SPEAKER_01Well, and and I I I teach right now um at the Seneca program. And when when we're talking about it, my biggest thing is the fact that, you know, you have to make sure that you are responsible to your license. That should be your number one protection, is that I need this license to be able to practice forever. And so when I'm making decisions, it should be is this something that I would I always ask them to ask themselves, is this something I would do if I was in the hospital? Would this be a treatment? Would this be something? Is this the process in which I'm about to follow something that would be considered. Professional and ethical in the hospital. And if you can answer yes, then that means that you've gone through evidence-based, you've reviewed what your responsibilities are, what your license is, because as you said, well, there are four control control DAX that we use in medical aesthetics. They are medical procedures that we are doing. And we should not minimize that, right? It would at all because it, you know, or or make flippant uh comments about how what we're doing, because it is. We are doing the exact same four control DAX we would do in the hospital. It's not right. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I think I had a I had a new patient uh a couple of weeks ago come for a consult and uh lovely lady lost some weight, you know, typical, not as bad a GLP one face as some that I've seen. She'd only lost 50 pounds, and her face actually did fairly well. Uh, we kind of made a plan of maybe a syringe, maybe two syringes of fillure, a little Belkyran, some skin tighting, a little bit of Botox. That's was kind of our plan of what we were gonna do. And then at the end of our conversation, I said, Do you have any questions? She said, Do you want to know that I went somewhere else for a consult? I said, Yeah, that's great. I'm glad you did. And I said, and she said, Do you want me to share with what they said? I said, Well, now I'm curious. Yes, please do share. She said, Well, you're not gonna believe what they suggested I did. And I said, Well, now I'm really curious. So she said, They were suggesting I did eight syringes in my face and 80 units of Botox, and they didn't even talk about the balkyra. And I went, Wow, okay, uh, that's a lot of filler all at once and a lot of talks. Because she actually was a very lucky person and really had no globellar movement or no forehead movement. Because I actually said, If you had some talks before on your in your upper forehead, she said, No, this is just me. So then when she told me they quoted her 80 units, I'm thinking, because we were just gonna do a little jaw and a little chin, a little DAO and a little bands, and that was it. Not yeah, I was I was kind of gobsmacked, I to say, and to me, that where it gets down to that clinic has some big bills to pay. So fillers generate some income. So yeah, if I can get her to do eight syringes of filler and 80 units of Botox,
Social Media, Regulation, And Patient Safety
SPEAKER_02I'm I'm happy, right? And I'm thinking, wow, see, that's what I mean by overdoing what the patient needs. So that's where we need to step back, put ourselves in their body, looking at us, going, you know, what is the best outcome for me? To me, it's starting smaller, building up rather than lock it all in, and you know, then you have an unhappy patient. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, and it's balancing that teeter-totter of capitalism and ethics, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, back to that ethics word again. Damn it. I know. Yeah, I know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, because it is, and that that sort of okay, so so when we're in medical aesthetics and we're thinking about like where we've come from, and I know you started a bit before I did, and so for me, I look to you as having seen a lot of evolution over the years of the of the practice. And um, is there anything in your practice that you would have changed?
SPEAKER_02Uh like yeah, I bought some machines I shouldn't have bought, but you know, that's and I should know better. So I I drank the Kool-Aid too a couple of times and got suckered into buying a couple of machines I shouldn't have bought. Um, so yeah, lessons learned. When you know, people call me and they say, you know, I need to invest in my practice, or I'm on Instagram reading something, I go, you know, start small, build up your business, add a simple two like microneedling, don't jump in and buy crazy, you know, lasers that cost you $5,000 a month. So, you know, start small, build up your clientele. Because like I said, one hammer and nail don't fix everything. You do need to kind of open the crayon box a little bit up. Uh, but yeah, there are some machines I wish I had not bought. But yeah, dumb.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and what about as far as um did you do did you add something to your practice at one point and then go, no, this isn't working and just shift and pivot to another uh approach?
SPEAKER_02Threads.
SPEAKER_01Oh, right, right, yeah.
SPEAKER_02I just uh I I I went to Florida and had the ones we didn't have here done because I thought they were gonna get approved here. And I had them done, and I spent uh he gave me a little bit of a discount because he was one of the trainers for for the threads, and I won't name the company. Um and I was unwowed and for how much I spent and how short term they lasted. And I think that's why Health Canada is being very fastidious about not approving them quickly, because it's a big outlay for a very short outcome. Uh, but I did do the other type of threads that were Health Can approved, and I did about 14 people. I was very picky with who I did them with. Again, you know, for the amount of time and effort and the uh, you know, the invasiveness of the procedure. For me, again, really no great long-term gain for the cost that it costs for the patient. So that's a that's something I remove from my practice. Yeah, I think there's other ways we can do it nicely that uh instead of doing that. So that was one thing that I would not do again, and all these other little threads in your face to make collagen. I have devices for that, which I think are better to work from the top down or inside out than doing your face full of all these little thread things.
SPEAKER_01I that's not my business, but well, and I think I I I do think you know, everything, and as you remember probably from back in in the day, there's there's always a first generation of everything. And and generally those first generation things need to evolve before they become really, really um exactly what they should be. Uh and and I agree with you. I think that I kind of stepped back from that as well. Uh, you know, you we're seeing sort of issues post and stuff like that. So it's it's better to let let other people practice and and develop that. And then when the when the generations change of that product, uh maybe it'll look a little bit different down the way and we can we can readdress it. But right now, I agree. I I shifted from that as well. I never even thought of that one.
SPEAKER_02Um, when we were when I worked for Clarion, we were doing the uh polypropylene nylon threads, which were long and they were barbed and they were like fish line. And we were doing training people we probably shouldn't have been training. And uh, I was working with a plastic surgeon in Montreal. We were trying to see we could lift breasts with them, and I'm like, oh my god. So yeah, I think that sometimes they just need to be cut, like they need to have surgery as the better indication for all that than trying to fill them up with threads or um, you know, gazillion gallons of sculpture, just go get the surgery. Sometimes they really surgery is uh a very good approachable option.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, yeah. I absolutely agree with you. I think, I think actually, we should go for a glass of wine. We'd have a good chat.
SPEAKER_02The only other one that I I kind of I went down the rabbit hole with was all the different kinds of PRP and PRF and all those. I drank that Kool-Aid too, and I've kind of simplified my life there now. I did add in recently the Selena's gel PRP, uh, the one that you cook a little bit and heat it up. So I I actually I do enjoy that product because I think it's a good opportunity for people who want a totally natural approach. They don't care that it doesn't last forever. Uh, it gives them a nice feel. You can't really screw it up unless you cook it too long. Uh, they tolerate it well. The outcome is pretty good. Um, I think there's still a learning curve with that. I was disappointed with the training that I got from the company in Canada that represented here. So I did go to the United States and uh I did a whole half day on PRP gel down there. I learned so much. Uh, I that's actually I've been in the back of my brain that I don't have any time for. But that would be something I would open my clinic up and train people with because I I think there's a real niche for that product. Um, but again, if you know PRP is a slippery slope too. If people's blood is, if they don't know it's really good, like it's a good quality, you know, then there's no point in using their tool. That's why I say if your tool's not good, we're not using your tool in the toolbox. So, but that product I think, but the PRF and all the other under-the-eye stuff, I've done so many people under the eye with regular PRP, and I go, yeah. So that one I think the ship is sailed. I try and talk people out of that one. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And well, and and I I've I've sort of held off uh committing to one particular uh evolution of PRP only because I just look for the data, look for the data, look for the data.
SPEAKER_02I never thought about going down to the states to get a little patient on well, I've I've gone through four companies now with their different ones, and I've kind of settled on two that I really quite like, depending on what I'm doing. Originally, we were going to get into, I had an NP working with me who was into very physical girls, sports therapy kind of girl. We were gonna get into joint therapy because around here they charge a gazillion dollars for PRP joint. And I thought there was a nice little niche market there, but
What She Would Change And Final Advice
SPEAKER_02sadly she didn't work out, so I ended up I just use that system now, just for if I really want to get a good amount of platelet draw, I use that one for someone. But other than that, we don't do that anymore either. But yeah, I think that oh, you know, let them change charge five thousand dollars for any. Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_01For for a while I was collecting centrifuge like uh teapots, yeah, different ones and like so on because yeah, yeah. So we can all have like a lineup on our counter.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and a couple in the back closet I got too.
SPEAKER_01Um, so I don't want to take too much of your time. I really appreciate this. It's been absolutely fun. Um, I really, really you always make me smile and you make me laugh, which is so nice because of your honesty. I love it. It's exactly what I I crave in my life is that honesty and that forthcoming uh personality. And I really enjoy you. Um, I do want to ask you one more question. It's one that I kind of throw out, make it a little bit existential. Um, so if you could speak to your 22-year-old self, what would you tell her?
SPEAKER_02Uh I was already married. I would say don't get married. Ever? Well, I I'm on number three, third time's a charm, man. Um, and I, you know, I I was very privileged uh in high school. I became I was a rotary exchange student, so I went to Australia for a year. I left high school with a very high grade average with the intent I was gonna go into medicine when I got back. And they tell you when you go that you know, you're gonna forfeit your year, you're gonna have to come back and redo your when we had grade 13 then. And when I got back, I felt like grown up so much that I didn't want to repeat my third my last year. So my marks were shit. So I didn't get into medical school and I didn't get into physiotherapy and becoming a nurse. So my one regret would have been that I redid my grade 13, got my biology mark and my chem mark up higher, and became the dermatologist that I wanted to do. You don't know this story, but when my marriage split up when my daughter was four, I applied to Mac and I got into the adult Mac program for medicine. It was a journey. I did I did three interviews, had to write a couple of essays. That my daughter that my we split in November and my daughter turned four. So all through the winter and fall, I did these applications and I finally got accepted at the end of April. I was pretty excited. It was a big commitment. Uh, and at my last uh meeting, physical meeting with the board, uh it was quite a process. They said to me, Do you realize the one woman who was similar age to me? She said, Do you realize what this means? Right. And I said, Yeah. She said, You have a four-year-old daughter, right? I said, Yes. She said, You're not going to see your daughter for the next seven years of your life. She said, Someone else is going to be raising your daughter. This, this is going to be a 24-7 program. She said, You're not going to see her. You need to be comfortable in your skin, that that's not going to happen. And I went home that night and thought about it and thought, shit, you know, my kids love my life. Can I give up? She's right. You know, the program was in Mac. I lived in Kitchener. My parents were going to have to help raise her. So three weeks later, I withdrew from the program because I just I needed to be with my kid. So everything happens for a reason. I end up kind of in dermatology anyway. But I think back now, so if that 22-year-old self had not done what she did, I would we wouldn't be doing this podcast. I'd be doing the podcast as a dermatologist in Ontario. But you know, I I've had a great career and I love what I do. And I do love skin. Uh, I think it was always my calling. I just took a different path. So that's that's what I would say. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Oh, that was awesome. That's such a good learning experience because it's true. You made a very, very clear decision about where you were gonna um put your energy and your time and your heart and your soul. And I think that was a really wise decision. And certainly for us um in medical aesthetics, we all benefited from you being as a nurse in it.
SPEAKER_02Oh, thank you. That's a good thing. I've really enjoyed my career, it's for sure. It's been fun. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Well, thank you so much for joining me. And hopefully, maybe we can at some point see each other in the real world. Sounds good. But thanks a lot, and uh, I'll talk to you at some point. Okay, have a great day.
SPEAKER_03Okay, bye, Jenny.
