49. Harnessing AI and Human Skills for Legal Success with Seshani Bala

What happens when you embrace new opportunities and take your legal career on a non-linear path? Our guest today, Seshani Bala, General Counsel at KPMG New Zealand, shares her unique journey and how it has led to personal and professional growth. From private practice to in-house counsel and international roles, Seshani offers valuable insights into navigating the legal profession and building a fulfilling career.

Effective communication and leadership skills are essential in the legal world, especially when it means dealing with boards and C-suite executives. Seshani shares her approach to coaching, mentorship, and building strong relationships in the workplace, emphasizing the importance of being concise, focused, and practical. Furthermore, she offers advice on harnessing the power of AI to stay ahead in the game and developing tech literacy to empower ourselves in the ever-evolving legal landscape.

As we explore the future of the legal industry, we dive into the role of AI and how it impacts the careers of lawyers. By focusing on the human skills that AI will never take over, such as problem-solving, critical thinking, negotiations, and relationship building, Seshani encourages legal professionals to create a unique value proposition that sets them apart. Don't miss this empowering episode full of invaluable wisdom and experience from Seshani Bala.

Join The Unbound Lawyer waitlist HERE.

Connect with our Guest:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/seshanibala/ 

Connect with the host:

Website: https://marijaduka.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marija-duka/ 

Instagram: @marija.duka

Join The Unbound Lawyer Program HERE.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:06

Welcome to the Career Confidence Podcast, the podcast for driven lawyers wanting to step out of the traditional path and build fulfilling and purposeful careers. I'm your host, maria Ducar, legal counsel and career coach, helping you navigate your career with intention and confidence. In this podcast, we don't show away from having real conversations about topics that matter to us. Driven AF go-getters From manifesting your dream career, negotiating the salary you deserve, creating your personal brand, knowing when it's time to pivot. We cover these topics and so much more. You ready, let's dive into today's episode. Hey, hey, welcome to another episode of the Career Confidence Podcast. I have an amazing interview for you today and if you are in need of a positive confidence boost, then today's episode is for you.

Speaker 1: 1:08

I speak to Sashani Bala, who is the general counsel at KPMG New Zealand. Sashani has over 15 years experience in Australia and New Zealand, operating as a trusted advisor and business partner across legal governance, risk and compliance. As a former private equity M&A lawyer, strategic enabler and tech enthusiast, she is passionate about transforming the delivery of in-house legal services to help businesses thrive in the digital age and manage risk at pace. Sashani's focus on innovation and purpose driven change has been central to her successful track record of managing global legal operations in the technology, fmcg, education and professional services sector. In this episode, sashani shares about her non-linear career journey, and I know that when you hear her journey, you will really be inspired about how you don't have to take those next logical steps in your career and that by saying yes to new and exciting opportunities, you open yourself up to growth and expansion that you probably never thought was possible for you.

Speaker 1: 2:23

Sashani also shares some tips on how to communicate when dealing with boards and C-suite. She provides tips on moving into stretch roles and backing yourself, and also she talks about how lawyers can harness AI to empower themselves in their careers. We talk about this and so much more. Now let's dive in on today's episode and meet Sashani. Hi, sashani, welcome to the Career Confidence podcast. I'm so excited for our conversation today, hi.

Speaker 2: 2:56

Maria, thank you so much for having me Likewise Super excited to chat with you.

Speaker 1: 3:01

Thank you so much for your time. Now we just dive straight on into it on this podcast. So would you please tell the listeners who Sashani is and what do you do?

Speaker 2: 3:10

Sure, so I'd like to thank Amir, problem Solver and Tech Enthusiast and a pretty passionate advocate for driving change. I'm a lawyer by background and I try to combine my legal expertise with my diverse multicultural background. I've travelled and moved around quite a lot with helping businesses solve problems and helping people navigate change. On top of that, i love to travel. I've been to 35 countries to date.

Speaker 1: 3:37

I did not know that. That's awesome.

Speaker 2: 3:40

I hope you get all around the globe before I eventually retire.

Speaker 1: 3:45

That's fantastic. I would love to hear a bit more about your career journey to date. I'm sure you've got a lot to share, given the experience you have both internationally and in New Zealand and Australia and all the things. So if you could just please walk our audience through your career journey, i mean just share a little bit more about that.

Speaker 2: 4:04

Sure. So I've never really had a career roadmap or plan. Really, i've sort of just stumbled into things and never said no when things popped up. So I started out going to law school and I actually did science and maths at school so I wasn't really into this whole legal thing. I wanted a bit of a change. So I went to law school, really loved the exposure to just really stretched my thinking. So I did international law and corporate law and then sociology And you really love that different way of just thinking and approaching problems. So after law school I did what everyone does because everyone told me go to private practice get your strides and then we'll go from there.

Speaker 2: 4:43

And back then there was no kind of in-house legal booth at the career store. So you know, it was just private practice firms and it was kind of the only option. So when I was an M&A lawyer and did private equity, i started out, did a couple of years in a big law firm in Auckland and then did the typical Kiwi thing which was go overseas and do your OE. So I was planning and going to New York. But yeah, universal, different Plans and it was during the GFC. So all the recruiters said, oh well, if you get made redundant, you want to not have too long of a flight back home. So I went to Sydney for one year, which ended up being 14. So I joined a private equity firm in Sydney, at Claymute, and then I loved the deal experience. I loved the deal hire. I actually really enjoyed my time in private practice. It was amazing training. But I never really understood like the business life cycle, understood what made a business tick. So a friend of mine flick me a roll with an in-house roll And I was kind of like what is that? What is in-house? And it was for an FMCG company. It was an Australian owned global business. So it was Gloria Jean's copies And yeah, they were in 43 countries And I thought that sounds really cool, but there's some potential travel involved in that So I'll give that a shot. So I was pretty lucky to get that gig. So I joined as the International General Council And that was just such a massive learning curve.

Speaker 2: 6:03

I pretty much had to unlearn everything I'd learnt in private practice and relearn everything else And, yeah, just really forgot how to give succinct, practical advice to a business with often 30 minutes lead time That's all the time you get to produce an answer, and so I love that. That was just such a terrific experience. So I had a lot of travels to Europe and as pack was a lot on the ground negotiations there. So I stayed in FMCG roles for about five or six years And then I thought, well, i'll try something else, so went to a professional services body and regulator Also had global remit there, and that was really interesting because I had to learn a lot about governance. It was very in the public face a lot. So I sort of got under additional legal. I got sort of governance and COSEC and operations and procurement and privacy and all these other hats, which I really didn't know how to do, and it was really about just giving it a shot and trying it and I loved it And that really ended up running the risk division there opened my eyes to when a business is going through its life cycle. Legal risk is one tiny part of that whole journey. There's all these other things you've got to consider and just really changed how I interacted with stakeholders and boards and exec teams And yeah, that was amazing And then thought, right, try something else.

Speaker 2: 7:23

So went into a tech company and went back into doing tech M&A It's also global and loved the deal work again, but really learned about the technology sector and SAS and licensing and loved that. And then COVID happened and got an approach to come back to New Zealand to join my current company. So I'm currently doing on council at KPMG New Zealand, being there for about two years And I wasn't really thinking about moving back. And then my past CEO sort of said to me it's such a great role, open your eyes to things, give it a shot And usual style, give it a shot. And yeah, i've been here for about back in Auckland now for about two years And it's been amazing.

Speaker 1: 9:25

Wow, there's so many points that I can go off on with your journey, because I love, firstly, that you highlighted the unlearning that you had to do, going in-house versus private practice, because there's a whole debate about that, which a lot of people know that you've got to do your stripes first before you can even be considered for in-house roles and all of that kind of stuff. So I love that you highlighted that that was actually a whole new experience for you that you had to learn so much on the job. Essentially And what I can see as well, that's a common theme within your career is that global element, the problem-solving element and loving to help businesses as well. So, although you didn't have a roadmap, it just seems like those key themes have been really driving that next decision and inspiring you to try something else within that kind of world. But yeah, what you've done is not easy. You've gone from private practice to different types of in-house roles, which takes a lot of, i think, flexibility and courage as well to just like learn on the spot, which is fantastic.

Speaker 1: 10:32

And going to things when you actually don't know like you know like 60% of what to do, or sometimes less than that, and give it a shot And that can stop a lot of lawyers, because a lot of like lawyers love to know what's going on, they like to have a plan. You know, they want to be the smartest person in the room and all of that kind of stuff. So it kind of does go a little bit against the grain of how lawyers generally like to think and approach their work. So, yeah, that's fantastic that you've done that. Now I'd love to touch on how you deal with boards and C-suite, because you're an executive general counsel of a global accounting firm And so dealing with different stakeholders and, in particular, like boards and C-suite that could be quiet, i don't know. I get a little bit like overwhelmed and a bit nervous like you're dealing with, you know, i guess, the really important people in the business. What are some tips that you have or what are some ways that you do this in a really effective way?

Speaker 2: 11:28

Great question And I think you know the nerves, even today, are always still there, but they get better with time. So I guess practice makes things better, i think. For me personally, i probably focused on about five things, and the first one is communication, i think being really concise and focused and practical. These are busy people that don't have a lot of time. They just want to the point, communication, so being able to draw their attention to you know what's the real issue here. Do we want your decision? Do we want you to just, you know, have, think about it and then give them your view? I think a lot of traditionally trained lawyers are just taught to give the business all the options and then kind of leave them to it with a bit of a hands-off approach. They want your view. You've got to bring that to the table and then be able to back why you think that.

Speaker 2: 12:11

I think you know when you're presenting keeping things short and impactful. No one wants the 40 page slide deck. You know couple of pages. You know talking bullet points And, i think, addressing sort of the why they should care about whatever you're presenting like why should they care? and aligning how you present that to the business strategy and objectives. I think one important thing I've had to learn over the years is that read the body language in the room. So often the questions that are being asked may not be the real questions. You really want to watch for that, i mean. So you're watching, you know the verbal cues as well as you know the human cues. The second thing for me is, you know, having really good mentors and coaches And I've been really lucky with that had great mentors really invested time in helping me learn over the course of my career, and if you see someone who's amazing at something or amazing at presenting, like pull them aside and you know, ask them how they do that.

Speaker 2: 13:02

Or everyone tells you as you're growing through your career, you know, have executive presence. You know, have gravitas. No one really tells you what that means. So I think you know I had a really great mentor sent me down and said you know, it's body language, it's tone, it's the overall presence, it's what you're actually saying. People say how you say something as much as what you say. So things for you over preparing like I will always over prepare They don't want to know the miniature of detail but you need to have it in your back pocket for when they ask that question.

Speaker 2: 13:32

And I think, just apart from the actual thing you're presenting, you know, look at the micro and macro issues. What's the context here? That's really important to give them a holistic view and help them kind of make a decision. In context. I think you know, build relationships and networking, that's really important. So I'm very relational If you invest time in fostering those relationships and make so much easier when you have to bring an unpopular opinion to the table or, you know, say something that is going to be quite challenging. So investing in that And lastly, i think, just staying curious and continuously learning, I think one thing that's really struck me is that how we work change so much. If I look back to how it was when I started out to now, i almost do things so differently like 360 to how I did it at the beginning. So the world's changing. How you deliver things is changing. Technology is making us do things differently And just being open to that, never being too kind of stuck in your ways, so you can kind of just diverge when you need to.

Speaker 1: 14:32

They're really, really great tips. I'm taking them all on board. It's so beneficial, definitely when you're dealing with busy people, and even if you are a private practice lawyer, i feel like those tips can still be applied when you are speaking to clients too, because they're also businesses generally. And also time for a love that you said about, like the O preparation. Even though they don't need the minute detail, it's just having that information that you can. Then, if you get asked a question like out of you know, left a field, you at least have that information to back yourself. I think that was a really, really good tip.

Speaker 1: 15:06

And, yeah, the relationship aspect as well, super, super important, i think, just generally in our careers, but obviously it's very important in house, you know, with the nature of your job. Now, i'm probably going to be generalizing here with this statement, but in my own experience, i feel like as women, we can tend to hesitate into a stretch role or something that's like a step up, because we feel like unless we meet that 100% of the criteria kind of like being, you know, over prepared, like having that mentality Then we might be a bit too scared to jump in or we think that we're not qualified or not good enough. You know, given your extensive experience and now being in an executive position in your career as well, what are some tips or advice you could give to someone that might be feeling this right now? or they want to make a jump or a leap and you go into a stretch roll, but they're shying away from that.

Speaker 2: 16:00

Yeah, and that really resonates with me because I felt like that a lot of times in my career is that if you're thrown into things or you know, opportunities come, or sometimes people just give you a really big portfolio and you're like I don't know how to do this, and it's almost like just breaking it into little chunks and taking one step at a time and knowing that I think, firstly, you can get through this. No one knows 100% of what they're supposed to do when they start anything. Some people just a lot better at it or train that, but no one knows that. And I think my biggest mindset change was just moving from perfection to progress. There's always needs to be progress over perfection. That's coming from a Virgo recovering perfectionist.

Speaker 1: 16:43

Well as the other lawyer, they'll resonate with that. I think for sure That progress over perfection.

Speaker 2: 16:49

And I think now my mindset is always and I don't know how to do that right now but I can find out and I can figure it out and I'll break it into little chunks and be like right, i know about the process, i need to go on to start learning about that And then I'll learn how to do it and I can upskill pretty quickly. But I think generally it's really important to say yes to those stretch roles, because fear can often make us just default to know it's too hard or what if I fail, and growth comes in really uncomfortable situations. So I try really hard to put myself in that because it is uncomfortable. But then we actually measure back and be like well, i've learned all this, so I've learned a new thing. It's really great And I think, just looking at it from a, i don't need to do this. Really well, i could completely fail it. That's okay, but I'm going to learn so many things that are going to take me to the next thing, whatever that is, and if I don't go on that journey, i'm not going to learn, i'm going to miss all that. Yeah, that's really worked for me. I think we hand up an answer for help.

Speaker 2: 17:44

I think sometimes that's something I find difficult to do at the beginning because you it's like, oh, and then it's obvious you don't know what you're doing. So I think just being really honest and vulnerable about that and being like actually I need some help on that. I think the worst piece of advice I would have given in my career for me personally was that whole fake it till you make it thing Because that's not authentic. It's totally fine to do something different And when you're going to a role, if you're not the traditional candidate for that role, i think there's a really opportunity there to really draw attention to what you're bringing. That's different, like they're asking you to do that for a reason. You're bringing fresh eyes. You are bringing completely different angle to something And I know when I've hired people in my team like sometimes the most unconventional candidate actually brings huge value at because you got well. I've never thought about it that way. So don't say yourself short. Give it a good shot and just progress and have a vision and enjoy the journey.

Speaker 1: 18:38

I love that, i love all of those tips. I think it's so true, like if you don't say yes to an opportunity, then you'll just remain stuck and you'll become comfortable and complacent and you don't know what potential you could be performing at, because you're just given up on that opportunity. It is easy to say no because it does feel uncomfortable, so it's easy to stay with what we do know. But yeah.

Speaker 1: 19:01

I love that. Yeah, you said that And I feel like that will really ring true to a lot of people in my audience. Now, you obviously have a team and you've built your team from the ground up. I'd love to know how you support your team. I guess you know to follow on from that conversation, encouraging them to step into stretch roles, And how do you, I guess, look after them and make sure that they're thriving as well, which is a big, big job to have as a leader? Yeah, I'd love to know how you support them.

Speaker 2: 19:31

Like I think I'm always think I'm a work in progress, but I think just giving everyone a clear vision of you know what does good look like and how do we go on that journey together. So I'm very flat structure. We're all in this together. You know we're collectively strong as a team And you know, to me, having been able to support your people means creating, you know, really psychologically safe environment where they know it's okay to learn and grow and make mistakes, because that making mistakes and learning from them is such a big part of that growth journey.

Speaker 2: 20:02

And I think I said in my team it's not the world according to the SESH Like I need you guys to bring your ideas and your challenge, because the worst thing for me is to just not get that from anyone and just be like right, this is how I've always done it, so I keep doing it that way. So we've got quite a diverse team. You know everyone's really good at bringing, you know, their own perspective and their own views to the table, and I think your business is better for that, because you can have a diverse team and not make it inclusive enough so that they can actually feel safe to say stuff. So that that's really important And to me, like you know, leadership is a privilege. It's a privilege to, you know, help someone on their journey And for whatever time they're with me on my team, i want them to be really great when they go on to their next thing. And you know I've had, i've been really lucky, i've had amazing teams. But what makes me and I'm really proud when I get a lot of satisfaction off seeing, though, them go off and do amazing things, that's what you want. They'll pay it forward then.

Speaker 2: 20:52

So I think, just being supportive and have fun together, i think that's really important. Just because we do serious work, we don't have to be super serious. And then I think, being positive and bring the energy, because it's really it's not sunshine and rainbows every day. You know we work in super fast-paced environments and it's tough in some days that, you know, not that great. And I think, being able to be, like you know we will get through this together. You know, being the tide that lifts. It's not easy, but you know that's what I try to do.

Speaker 1: 21:20

Oh, you're amazing. I'd love to work for you.

Speaker 2: 21:23

Can you have to actually?

Speaker 1: 21:24

check my things. I'll interview them after the line. I'm sure they say the exact same thing, for sure. No, that's they're all. Yeah, wonderful ways that you support them.

Speaker 1: 21:36

And what I love in particular is how you said that it's important to paint the clear vision, and I think that's where a lot of leaders or people in leadership or managers that's where they go wrong, where they don't paint the clear vision, and then everyone's kind of like what's going on? What are we working on? What's the priority? And that confusion causes a lot of people to feel uncomfortable and then not know how to move forward from that And therefore you're not using your time and your skill set the best way possible. So I think that's great, that that's what you instill in the team as well as working together, and it doesn't just stem from you that you are all collaborating as a team.

Speaker 1: 22:15

Let's get into the techie, geeky stuff. I know you love tech. Now there's a lot of noise about AI and how it's threatening to take lawyers jobs, and there's a lot of fear mongering out there around that. However, there is obviously going to be an impact from AI on different people's careers As lawyers. What can we do in these uncertain times where traditional careers are potentially at risk of changing completely.

Speaker 2: 22:48

Yeah, that's such a great question, something I'm really, really passionate about because I think technology is absolutely revolutionizing how the legal professional will do what it does in the next few years, and I think it's really important to have the right mindset to embrace that change, because it can be quite disruptive. But mindset matters and how we approach that. We can either be totally scared of it or do nothing, or we can adopt it and be responsible but understand it. So I think just having a growth mindset and having a learning agility when we look at that. As you said, a lot of noise about AI going from replacing jobs to creating a great team, but the reality is we don't know. We don't know how it's going to be in five years, 10 years.

Speaker 2: 23:30

What we do know is that we'll have a huge impact on the future of work and a lot of the traditional professions, and I think being a lawyer in the next few years is going to look very different to what it was traditionally, particularly since the legal industry has been really static And we've seen a very little change in the last several decades. So at the moment, a lot of noise about genitive AI like chat, gpt and Bard And I use them all in a way that compiles all confidentiality and other policies, but they're really good at assisting us with a lot of tasks. So I think it'd be a while before they can take over a whole role, but I think we'll see a big shift towards lawyers doing really more high value generating work And repetitive tasks. Because, let's be honest, you were an M&A lawyer and you did your rotations for data rooms for 12 hours at a time. Who wants to do that? Who wants to do repetitive contract reviews? No one.

Speaker 2: 24:20

I think it's a really good thing, but I think definitely, when I look at the future of work, i think it'll distinguish between lawyers who can use it and those who can't. So I think it's really important to develop your tech literacy, get a basic understanding of AI and related tech. You can evaluate it, leverage it, use it. You understand the risks and opportunities. You understand the huge ethical debate that's going around as we watch the world scrambling to regulate and not really knowing how and everyone doing it differently. It's going to be such a fast moving beast Kind of like privacy was when GDPR first came out And, i think, really embracing those human skills, because those are the things that AI will never really take over.

Speaker 2: 25:02

So your problem solving, your critical thinking, negotiations, relationship building and people leadership, they're always going to be in demand. So I think it's almost like a skills reshift, so that you are relevant in a very different landscape, because it's going to change regardless of whether we get on board or not. And I'd rather be getting on board and being excited about it than kind of doing nothing. And then it's like well, it's hit me and I'm not sure what the future holds.

Speaker 1: 25:26

Absolutely. With every generation, there's new changes that come up, and now AI is that new change that's going to hit every industry. As you said, it's best to use it as a tool to empower you so that you can focus on high-value tasks and utilize the skills that you really want to be utilizing, rather than, as you said, no one wants to be doing those boring, repetitive tasks, although we've all been there and probably still are going through that. But I think it's just another tool, right? It's nothing to be afraid of. It's just another tool we can have in our toolkit that we can just learn how to use properly, so that it can actually make our jobs so much more easier as well.

Speaker 2: 26:10

Efficiency is who wants to be working in an environment where you can't be efficient?

Speaker 1: 26:14

Yeah, exactly right. I mean, the world is very fast-paced, so it's like you might as well be using that time to be doing effective, high-value work. Then the things that, yeah, are taking time and tedious but aren't really moving the needle forward. So, yeah, that would be great to take all of that away.

Speaker 1: 26:30

I welcome it wholeheartedly. That's right Now. I'd love to know what do you do outside of work that brings you joy. I know you love travel. Is there anything else that you'd love to do, Because you've got a very busy role, so I'd love to personally know as well how you balance it all outside of work, doing things that light you up.

Speaker 2: 26:50

Yeah, it's a constant juggle. I'm not going to lie about that. I think just being with my family and friends probably like the most important things, having that downtime and just being able to be present. So I've got a huge family and, yeah, love hanging out with them, the thing in nature I will say, when the weather in Auckland permits, because it's rained constantly since I arrived here, everyone tells me it's not usually like that. And then, yeah, i think, being creative. So I love doing creative stuff. I do a lot of artwork, a lot of paint, do that kind of stuff. It just balances out the other side of the serious kind of brainwork you have to do. And then, yeah, just travelling you know, have a laugh is really important to me. Like I tend to see the funny side of most things probably gets me through some harder times in life, but I think that's just you're having a sense of humour, i'm not taking things too seriously. I love that.

Speaker 1: 27:38

Oh, that's awesome.

Speaker 2: 27:38

That's so wholesome. I love it.

Speaker 1: 27:41

I really do, and I think you've got a great mindset and you need to have that mindset to have the role that you do. Otherwise you would go insane. Honestly to be able to build a team from the ground up, manage different people, different personalities, deal with, like high pressure situations. You have to do something to balance all of that out And I love that you have that. You know humour within you, that you get to. You know you see the bright side and the funny side of things too. Now, something I ask every guest that I have on the show is what does career confidence mean to you And what's one practical tip you can offer the audience to build their confidence in their career?

Speaker 2: 28:18

I think to me it's just being authentic and being able to bring 100% of myself to the role. I'm very lucky to work in an organisation that has been focused on that, because sometimes I think there's huge pressure to change yourself to fit into the environment, particularly if you look around the room and you don't feel like you belong there. So that's really important to me. I think my biggest tip to audiences don't change what makes you different and unique. Amplify that, because that often becomes a superpower and often gives you competitive edge when you need it. So I think to me, the most confident leaders are the ones who are really authentic and relatable and just here, bring themselves to work and are human.

Speaker 1: 28:57

Yeah, I love that. That's beautiful.

Speaker 2: 29:00

Now where can?

Speaker 1: 29:00

my audience find you, to connect with you and get to know you more.

Speaker 2: 29:04

So I'm on LinkedIn. feel free to drop me a message if you ever want to chat about anything. I also contribute the In Me Magazine and hoping to be at the conference in Sydney later in the year, So if you're around, yes, say hello.

Speaker 1: 29:16

Beautiful. It's so nice to have you on the podcast, ashani. You are incredible. You're an incredible leader and a wholesome, beautiful human being as well, and I'm so grateful that we met at the In View Conference last year and our paths have crossed And, yeah, I just want to thank you for your time and the value that you shared with our audience today.

Speaker 2: 29:34

Thank you so much for having me. I love your podcast and, yeah, look forward to catching up with you in person soon.

Speaker 1: 29:41

Yes, definitely. Thanks for tuning into the Korea Confidence podcast, like what you learned today. Why not share this episode with your work, bestie, and leave us a five star review on? wherever you listen to your podcast on, we'd absolutely love to get into more years and help more women, just like you, build fulfilling and thriving careers. Until next time,