58. Breaking Stereotypes and Creating The Me Shaped Lawyer

What if you were to throw out the rule book on what your career should look like in order for it to be successful and start to create a career based on your interests and values? 

Well our guest today, shares exactly how she has carved out a path in her legal career that is deeply aligned to her. 

Our guest today is Elisabeth Flett, award-winning General Counsel and Company Secretary at the Cancer Council, recently crowned General Counsel of the Year by the Australian Corporate Council. 

Lis has spent the majority of her legal career working in-house for large national and global companies, across a number of sectors including construction, agribusiness, and logistics. 

However, she’s taken the path less travelled, and has pivoted a number of times, in a bid to seek out a better and happier life in the law. 

Lis has been sharing her personal journey on Instagram as @the.me.shaped.lawyer, in a hope to sprinkle a little glitter into the legal profession and break stereotypes about what it takes to be a ‘successful’ lawyer. 

When she's not working, Lis loves spending time with her two little girls, doing pottery, or swimming in the beautiful waters off Sydney’s northern Beaches where she calls home.

In this episode Lis:

• breaks down the stereotypes of what it is to be a successful lawyer and instead be a me shaped lawyer;
• shares about her career pivots and how 9 months studying veterinary science led her back to a career in law, using the skills she learnt in her course in her new role; and
• talks about taking courageous action to create a fulfilling career path for yourself.

Let's dive into this episode!

Connect with our Guest:

LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/elisabethflett

Instagram: @the.me.shaped.lawyer

Connect with the host:

Website: https://marijaduka.com/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marija-duka/ 

Instagram: @marija.duka

Join The Unbound Lawyer Program HERE.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:06

Welcome to the Career Confidence podcast, the podcast for driven lawyers wanting to step out of the traditional path and build fulfilling and purposeful careers. I'm your host, maria Ducar, legal counsel and career coach, helping you navigate your career with intention and confidence. In this podcast, we don't show away from having real conversations about topics that matter to us. Driven AF go-getters From manifesting your dream career, negotiating the salary you deserve, creating your personal brand, knowing when it's time to pivot. We cover these topics and so much more. You ready, let's dive into today's episode. What if you were to throw out the rule book on what your career should quote unquote look like in order for it to be successful and started to create a career based on your interests and values? Well, our guest today shares exactly how she has carved out a path in her legal career that is deeply aligned to her.

Speaker 1: 1:19

Our guest today is Liz Fletch, award-winning general counsel and company secretary at the Cancer Council. She recently has been crowned as general counsel of the year by the ACC, the Australian Corporate Council. Liz has spent the majority of her legal career working in-house for large national and global businesses across a number of sectors, including construction, agribusiness and logistics. However, she's taken the path less traveled and has pivoted a number of times in a bid to seek out a better and happier life in law. This has been sharing her personal journey on her Instagram, and I encourage you to follow her on the me shaped lawyer, and that's linked in the show notes. So go ahead and follow her in the hope to sprinkle a little glitter into the legal profession and break stereotypes about what it is to be a successful lawyer. When she's not working, liz loves spending time with her two little girls doing pottery or swimming in the beautiful waters off Sydney's northern beaches, where she calls home. In this episode, liz breaks down the stereotypes of what it is to be a successful lawyer and rather to actually be a me shaped lawyer, and what that means for her. She shares about her career pivots and how nine months studying veterinary science led her back to a career in law, but this time on her own terms and in alignment with her skill set and experience that she brought along with her. She also talks about how taking courageous action is the best way to create a fulfilling career path for yourself.

Speaker 1: 2:58

Now, without further ado, please meet Liz Flat and let's dive into this amazing conversation. Hey Liz, welcome to the Career Confidence podcast. I'm so excited to be here with you today and, yeah, thank you for making time. Thanks for having me my absolute pleasure. Now we just dive straight into the deep questions. Would you please tell the listeners who Liz is and what you do?

Speaker 1: 3:25

Yeah, so I'm Liz Flat. I'm the general counsel and company secretary at the Cancer Council in New South Wales. I've been here for two years and I moved across from the private corporate sector previously, having worked DP World, which is a big freight logistics company. We controlled most of the well, yeah, one of two players that controlled most of the ports and operated most of the ports in Australia and globally, the largest port operator. Prior to that, I was at Sydney Metro, which is a government, state government organization who's building the Metro Rail around Sydney, and before that I was working in an agribusiness company. I'd always been in large, sometimes global, but at the very least national organizations.

Speaker 1: 4:17

After a couple of years in private practice and before that I actually did start in-house as well. So I've had a very yeah, a very sort of varied I'd say non-traditional career path to get to this point, in that I left uni not really knowing exactly what I wanted to do, but I knew that I should go and make something of this law degree and my practicing certificate that I just worked so hard at getting, having had dreams of becoming a vet one day. So there's probably a long story as to how that went so wrong, but I started working in a small law firm office in Piedmont and actually so struggle to find work. At first it was 2009, so post-GFC, lots of law grads and clerks were being made to go, and if they had a graduate position, they were being asked to go and spend a year overseas and defer their start dates. There were very few roles for junior lawyers and even not so many roles for paralegals. That were for people with little to no experience in the law. So, yeah, so I had to hustle, at first working in a service office answering calls and then finally getting a role in this small firm in Piedmont, which was an experience.

Speaker 1: 5:34

We then moved on to working at CSR as an assistant company secretary and then made friends with the general counsel in the legal team there and managed to work in the in-house team. So that was a good sort of six months of hopping around not really finding my feet, not being sure whether I'd done all the right things and clearly thinking I'd clearly messed up somewhere, not doing the season of park ships and applying for the graduate roles. But I finally found myself in-house at CSR and it was an awesome place to work. Gc there was really supportive. I learned a lot. We were doing some big M&A transactions straight into the real side of doing big deals and being an in-house lawyer really showed me actually that that was a great way to practice law. I was hooked from there. But he did give me the advice at the time that if you want to be in-house, you've got to spend at least three to five years working in private practice and before you can come back to in-house and really have any sort of company impact, be able to support the business, because you need to go and refine your skill set. So when the team was downsizing after they had done a lot of these big M&A transactions and they didn't need the additional resourcing anymore, I interviewed in a big firm and started then working for a property practice group. So yeah, that's sort of maybe the long back story is to where I started in the law.

Speaker 1: 7:06

But yeah, you did ask me who I am. I think I'm a lawyer in part, I'm also a mom and a bit of a social butterfly. I do love spending time with my friends and getting together on the weekends with the kids and the families on the street. Yeah, my girls and my everything. I've got a six-year-old, a two-year-old, and, yeah, my husband is really supportive of everything I do. He's my biggest champion. So that's me. Love spending time with my mom whenever I can and she lives in Tassie, and, yeah, that's me.

Speaker 1: 7:38

I love hearing about, yeah, not only just the lawyer side, because, of course, that's interesting and we're definitely going to go deeper into your journey as a lawyer, but I love hearing more about, yeah, the human side as well, not the lawyer side. It's not the human side, but the other interests that you have in your family, and I love hearing all of that. And, yeah, the fact that you have all of that support network is fantastic and so invaluable as well. It really is. And I think sometimes we not only do we forget that we, as lawyers, are all human, that there's a human being on the other side of a transaction. They might be a lawyer, but they're human too, but I think sometimes we forget that we're human. We forget what we need as people, as human beings, and it's easy to lose sight of that when we're also really naturally quite career driven.

Speaker 1: 8:26

So, yeah, it's been a big part, I suppose, of the last five, six years of my life since having kids, realizing what I need as a whole person as well as in my career, and also learning how to sort of weave those together so that I can have that happy life. And it's not one or the other, it's not being a lawyer or being a mother, a friend, a sister, a daughter, but being able to sort of combine those two. And I think there's a lot of privilege that sits behind all of that as well, obviously, but I've made some really conscious decisions in my career so that I can have more of that whole person experience in the law, I suppose I'd call it. That's really, yeah, that's a great realization that you've had, especially after having children, that you can weave them together. It doesn't have to be you being separate as a mom and separate as a lawyer. You can actually have the best of both worlds and that's right.

Speaker 1: 9:22

Do you feel like this was one of your biggest lessons through your career pivot or what? Can you share a bit more about what your biggest lessons were from all of these career pivots, because you've had a non-traditional type of path. Yeah, once you've reflected all of that, what have you taken away as learnings? Yeah, I have had a few pivots. The first one for me was, quite early on, that pivot into private practice and then back out of private practice. The biggest one, though, I think, was when I left private practice quite early on, at the two-year mark, and I left for it, and it was a combination of a lot of things.

Speaker 1: 10:03

The environment was not for me, and I think I definitely described it as burnout at the time, and now I really understand what that is. It took me a while to understand what is burnout. What was burnout? Because since then, I've worked in roles where I've had late nights, lots of pressure, deadlines and demands in in-house roles and that exists in in-house roles. So it's certainly not. People do think that in-house work-life balance, more flexibility, and that can be true, but it can also be just as demanding as private practice. But for me, I realized that the burnout came from the slow friction, where it's like, you know, two plates just rubbing against each other slowly. I realized at the time that who I wanted to be as a person and who I was able to be as a lawyer in that environment, were just completely inconsistent with being able to sort of wear those two hats, be me in that environment and I left there.

Speaker 1: 11:04

It all sort of came about. I decided to leave there when I found out that my mom had cancer and actually it wasn't the first time. So when it had come back and I should say as well that she's well and she's living with cancer that was back in 2012 and it really sort of shook my world and made me think you know, how can I keep doing what I'm doing? And I wasn't happy in private practice. I wasn't enjoying it. I think you know there was a lot of demands on my time that stopped me from being able to go to the weddings or the engagement parties or even just social get-togethers with my friends outside of the firm. I built some amazing friendships within the firm, People I'm still friends with today, somebody who I ended up going and working for after that role in an in-house role, and I'm still in touch with the people that I've worked with there as well.

Speaker 1: 11:56

But it really was quite a cultural environment and it was difficult to be myself. You know I was quite chatty, personable. I wanted to be really innovative, really efficient. I wanted to give my clients the answers they needed to get the job done. I wanted to be an in-house lawyer for them and it was just a completely different way of practicing. So yeah, like that sort of slow burn.

Speaker 1: 12:18

But what I learned from that pivot was really that you know sometimes you can make a really scary leap and not know what's on the other side. You don't always have to know that it's part of a plan. It doesn't have to be logical If it doesn't feel right to you. Find something that will give you the space and give you the relief to actually to repair, to grow, whatever it is that you're lacking in that current role. Just find something that is other than what you're doing, because I think you know as people we need that space. We need that time to kind of to regenerate, to repair when we're burning out, when we're not well.

Speaker 1: 13:01

So yeah, for me, strangely enough, that was actually deciding to go and finally get my first act into gear and study vet science. So I applied for a position at Sydney Uni in the vet program. There I ended up going into veterinary bioscience, which is a little bit again off-key, but I spent nine months full time. So no legal practice, threw it all away, thought this is it, I'm never going to be a lawyer again. I tried to be a lawyer the way I wanted to do it Private practice. Didn't work out, couldn't make the three to five years, that's it. I'm never going to be able to be an in-house lawyer or a private practice lawyer. What are we going to do next? We're going to have to find something else, and that was thinking about. Well, what makes me happy? Life's really short.

Speaker 1: 13:41

Obviously, my mom's diagnosis really sort of brought a lot of things to her head for me. So I spent nine months full time on that vet course, patting cows, pee out some farms, some like us in the lab and really sort of tapping back into that sort of science side of my brain. I did science, law and undergrad, so for me it was sort of like, okay, I'm back on a different path. But after nine months I realized, look, I don't really want to be a vet. At the end of this my husband and I had just decided that we wanted to buy an apartment. We wanted to stay in Sydney. There's not so many ways to pay for an apartment when you're a full-time student.

Speaker 1: 15:40

So the friend that I'd worked with at the law firm kind of came knocking and said look, I think you should come and work for me in-house. At which point I was sort of like I don't know if I can, I don't know enough. I haven't done that sort of five years of practice. Maybe I'm going to experience the same thing. I don't know if it's just the law, what is it? She convinced me to go along and take the role and I'm really glad she did. She sort of, yeah, talked me into it.

Speaker 1: 16:07

I think one of the best things about being an in-house lawyer is that it's not a law firm. The people that you're spending the time around most of the day can be as diverse as the industries that you go and work for. So for me that was spending time with property managers, developers, it professionals, hr professionals, and it really showed me again I'd seen a small, I'd had a small insight into this when I was at CSR, but again it showed me that I could put my skills into use and be really effective as a lawyer in a different environment. It's a little bit like putting a flower in the growing it in the dark and it's not growing, moving to a better environment and it will flourish. And it really felt like that for me. It was just. It brought out everything that I had within me that I'd had to kind of pack away or keep small in private practice Don't be too chatty, don't be too colorful, don't be too loud and I was able to be myself.

Speaker 1: 17:04

So, yeah, I think these pivots have taught me that if the environment isn't right, if something's not right in your career often it is the environment Move to a different one and you've got skills, you've got enthusiasm. You're still waking up every day off to be a lawyer. That takes a lot of energy. Go and put it somewhere where it's going to work for you. You know where you're not working against the grain, where you don't have that slow grind that eventually is going to cause a spark and burn you out. And I think you know that's been, that's sort of been my guiding North Star in making career decisions from about that point onwards.

Speaker 1: 17:42

So I've certainly had a few changes even since then. You know, having children was a big thing. That again sort of can disrupt your career in some ways, and it did for me, going back after my first child was really tricky, you know. She was five months old. She wasn't sleeping, didn't sleep until she was two and a half actually. So, yeah, and suddenly all the things that I'd previously enjoyed about that role I wasn't getting able to do as much.

Speaker 1: 18:10

You know, I really loved traveling and I loved doing a lot of the work that required, you know, some late nights and hard days in the office and I was having to leave a bit earlier and not travel as much, you know. And I also encountered some difficulties as well with being accommodated for as a nursing mom that had returned at five months. So, you know, having to navigate those things on top of the challenges of just being a new parent or just trying to be a lawyer, which is also just hard enough really kind of made me again think about what am I doing? Why am I here? Is there something else that I want to do? Can I, am I ready to go and collect some new skills or grow in a different way or find a role that's more flexible and accommodating to where I'm at in my life? So so, yeah, that's what I did, and I used to be really concerned that making so many changes would be damaging to my career.

Speaker 1: 19:02

You know, I did have the conversation with a recruiter who had sort of said look, you know the next role, you've really got to stay there for sort of three to five years because you've popped around a bit. You know, two years, two years, two years. I just rolled my eyes at those comments, but yeah, it's a tough one, right, because they're using their knowledge and their experience, they're passing on the wisdom that they have based on what their clients are telling them, and I think that there's certainly some, some basis to it. But I also think that it's looking more at sort of the past, or the voices that are the loudest that are saying this, and not necessarily what is happening in reality. And I think that, just to balance the dialogue, you know, yeah, there might be some clients out there who are sort of looking for someone who had stuck around a little bit longer, but there's plenty of people who have moved on and had successful careers when they've worked for two years, two years, two years.

Speaker 1: 19:57

And whilst I can see that, you know, some employers might question and might want to understand what's behind it, it's about getting to know the individual and why they are interested in that role and I think that when there is that alignment, it will show through, regardless of what you've done in your career. So I think you know sharing my story, listening to other lawyers on your podcast and other podcasts about their career path. It just it just shows there's no one way to do this. There's no set way to shape your career. You just have to make the changes that are right for you.

Speaker 1: 20:33

And I still think that even in an ideal world, you'd be in a role for sort of three to five years. You're better off moving on than you are sticking around when you know that it's not bringing out the best in you because A you're not going to be enjoying the work, you're not going to be the best lawyer that you can be if you're not happy in the role. And likewise, what have you got left at the end of that five years when you know when you've been sort of pushing against the grain? So, yeah, I think you know it's really taught me that you can worry about all of the why not to do something, but what if it just really works out? There's definitely better ahead. So just don't be afraid of change.

Speaker 1: 21:15

Exactly, they're really good insights and I love that you, like you, walked us through your journey and there's just so many nuggets of wisdom throughout that journey. But, for example, of that colleague that was saying that, oh, maybe you should just go private practice, get your experience for three to five years and that sticks with people, though, because then it makes you think, oh, now I'm in private practice and I'm not really loving this. Oh, therefore, maybe I shouldn't be a lawyer, and it sticks with you so. But I'm glad that you've highlighted that, because you just showed, like with your you know experience, that you don't need those things. And yes, people are going to voice their own opinion from their own experience and perspective, but it doesn't actually make it the truth for you and you can carve your own path and you've been an example of that to suit you, and I love that you also have moved around so that you are happy and thriving. You haven't just stuck at something. I find that way more interesting in someone and more courageous in someone than if someone's just miserable and staying in a role for five years. Yeah, I definitely.

Speaker 1: 22:19

And like the fact that you went to study vet science like how cool does that? I don't know to me that looks so cool on a CV, like I'll be like, oh, tell me more about this. You know, if I was the one that was interviewing you, I think that's that really shows the character of a person. So, and the interesting thing was that when I was then leaving the job that I was so I was working in-house whilst continuing on with my studies. So it's like nine months full time at the vet course before I then realized I've got to work, got to pay the bills, yeah. So I was so much of a life, yeah, and I can't just be a career uni student forever. That would be nice. It was pretty good. It was a great nine months.

Speaker 1: 22:56

I was 24 and it was my sort of I at the time was calling it my first, my first life crisis and, you know, having a great time being a mature age student at 24. And you know, there is something really special actually about going back to study when you are that little bit more mature. When you have been, I mean, you're there for when you know the reasons why you're there. I was only a bit jealous of people who were doing their law degree and knew exactly what they wanted to do at the end and why they were doing it. I was like I've got no idea the what I'm going to be when I grow up and I still felt that in my first few years of practice.

Speaker 1: 23:29

But yeah, I would be working in I was working at the time at BGIS Brookfield, the facilities management part of the business, and so we would be, you know, flying around the country negotiating big public-private partnership deals with, you know, teams of lawyers on the other side of the table and it was just sort of me and my management team and getting the job done and we yeah, I was, I was having a fantastic time doing that and then I'd go and take two weeks break to do my crack work, which would often involve being outfield at a farm somewhere in remote New South Wales or Queensland castrating balls, pobbles and doing, you know, doing some fun things. So apologies to the apologies to the vegan listeners here and it was about the project was about seeing if we could find ways to monitor and better understand on farm welfare for animals during those routine procedures. I really enjoyed it, but the really funny thing was that when I was coming to the end of my time at Brookfield and realizing that, look, you know, this was really fun, it was great. But how am I closer to that thing that I'm supposed to be doing? I know that there's something out there that's meant for me and I've got this interesting animal welfare over here, I've got construction over here and they're so different, so complementary in some ways, that you know nurturing both sides of who I am and what I'm doing. But I knew that I couldn't do that forever.

Speaker 1: 24:56

So when my studies came to an end I decided to go and you know, see what else was out there in lowland for me, and they came across the world at rural co, which is well, it's now nutrient ag solutions. They were bought out by the Canadian conglomerate just after I left, but they were Australia's, one of Australia's biggest agribusiness companies, and it was quite interesting at my interview knowing a lot about the farm setting and understanding about animal agriculture that I hadn't had a clue about when I was in private practice. So this bizarre deviation from the law ended up being a major strength at that interview and one of my first assignments. I got the role when my first assignment was to go and spend some time up in Darwin working with the business to review their live export business and I was in close contact with cattle. We were looking at the supply chain compliance, and it was an amazing role. So just having a lot to do with the things that I knew a bit about in animal agriculture as a lawyer, I was joking saying that I'm now a cow lawyer, and so I've been a bricks and mortar lawyer. I've been a cow lawyer. I went on then to being a trains lawyer and a shipping lawyer.

Speaker 1: 26:13

So there's something really nice about just collecting different skills and knowledge, and they do come in handy. You know, you might think that, okay, I've decided that I'm going to go off for two years and study something completely different. I'm going to go and be a florist, I'm going to start my own business in tech. Go and do it, because if you come back to the law, you'll come back equipped with a whole new skill that will make you so interesting and appealing to a business out there, or you'll at least come back with a refreshed understanding of what you want to do in the law, even if it's not what you were doing before. Or you won't come back at all. You'll be living the dream. There's something else. I just always think you know why not? Life really is too short. Just don't let great opportunities to learn something new, do something new, pass you by, if you can make it work.

Speaker 1: 26:58

Well said, I 100% agree with everything you're saying. I think that our skills outside of the law, our experiences outside of the law, very much help If you do want to, for example, come back to law. They're not wasted time, they're not wasted skills. You can really use them to transfer them into, you know, maybe an industry that you might want to go into, or what you did with the agricultural farming. So, yeah, nothing is wasted. I love that you said that. You know let's try to do different skills and experiences. I think that's a great way to look at it. That's it, and it's more like an adventure. Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 27:33

And I think we get really obsessed with the PQE. You know we get really fixated on how many PQE are we, how many do we need to be to get to that point in our career. I understand that. You know, I think in those early years where you're finding your feet and you really you often don't know what you want to be doing, but you're trying to. You know you're looking at roles out there and planning for when you can get to that point and obviously the number of years of experience is a huge driving factor. But I also think we can get a little bit to obsessed with it and it comes back to biases, particularly as a working mother, this idea that any break from the law is somehow dismantling your career, disrupting your career, and the questions I see all the time on the sort of the lawyer mom's blog about how many PQE. Can I say that I am. I was practicing for this. Many years I've been raising, you know, I've been on maternity leave for one year and okay, yes, there's some, there's some. You know rules around it. But I think it can also hold us back from chasing those things that we want to do anyway. You know there's the rulebook. It's there for a reason, it's just there for formalities, and I think you can sort of throw it out the window when it comes time to dreaming about what your career could be. So just don't let it hold you back.

Speaker 1: 28:49

I think you know, when you get past a certain point, it's no longer about the PQE, it's about the experience that you've got in. You know your lived experience, your practice experience. You can spend three years in one role not learning very much at all. Or you can spend one year in another role doing things that you've never done before, learning and growing in huge ways. You know you might work for a business that's gone through to takeovers and capital raisings and to, you know, 52 M&A transactions in 12 months. You kind of learn so much in that role. So, yeah, a good recruiter can sell that for you.

Speaker 1: 29:22

A good employer they should be able to see what you have been able to do on paper and, obviously, working with a career coach or a recruiter who can help you to actually articulate that is so important as well. You know it takes a village. I would say it takes a village. There's people that you should have in your, you know, in your brains trust on your dream team, and it's not just, it's not just all on. You work with the experts around you to help craft that career that you want to have, but don't let your own dreams be hampered by things like PQE or does it make sense? Or, you know, is this what I should be? So, yeah, I mean maybe it's easier said than done, but certainly, certainly the words that I would share with you. Know, with my daughters or with my friends. I've probably given a few pet talks to friends and it's worked out for them. So, yeah, absolutely, and it's worked out for you. You've shown time and time again that you should be defined by all of these things, otherwise you wouldn't be where you are today.

Speaker 1: 30:16

And I'd love to talk about your really exciting and most recent win, which is you were recently crowned the GC of the year by the ACC the ACC Awards. This is incredible and this would really be like the cherry on top for you. How do you feel and what have you learned upon reflection of winning this amazing award? It's amazing, I think you know. Pinch me, is it real? I'm still. I'm still floating. Actually it was a week ago and, yeah, it has quite sunk in. I think it was definitely something that I would look at a number of years ago and think I'll probably never be that person. I'll probably never get awards.

Speaker 1: 31:03

There were a couple of things, I suppose, about the whole process that I used to find really uncomfortable the self-promotion, or just talking about what you've done and framing that in a positive light and selling it to people who are going to judge what you've done with your career and I think some of that was because of my own apprehension about whether, in fact, I identified as being a lawyer. I was still kind of practicing law, but I don't know if I'm really a lawyer. I won't always be a lawyer, it's not really for me and the difference between then and now is having stepped into a space that I feel that I bring my whole self to and that I'm so incredibly proud to be working in. In part, that is because of the organization that I'm working for, working for the cancer council. I haven't had a single day where I've gotten up and thought why am I doing this? Or when somebody sends an agreement past my desk, thinking, can't they just work this out for themselves? I feel so energized to help and to be able to use my skills to support people in the business, and it's a great culture as well.

Speaker 1: 32:10

Most people, everybody here pulls in the same direction. We all want to see fantastic outcomes for people who are affected by cancer and to do the brilliant work that we're doing, and it's so good to be able to contribute to that as a lawyer using these skills. So on the one hand, I think, is it real? Am I really the kind of person who's just been awarded general counsel to be here but, on the other hand, I'm so incredibly proud of what we do here and could speak authentically to everything that we put in our submission to substantiate the award and speaking to the judges in the process, I feel that it feels very authentic and I think that that's why, hopefully, that's what came through to the judges and just, obviously, the fantastic work that we've been doing here. So for me, I'm really thrilled to accept this award, really for the team. There's no, unless you're a sole counsel, it really does take a team to deliver a legal function and it's certainly not me doing it all by myself. So this award really is recognizing our work as a team and, yeah, I'm really grateful that the ACC has recognized that, because I think as well it also speaks to the not-for-profit sector In part.

Speaker 1: 33:22

Hopefully, it encourages people to go and look for roles in this space and think about working in this space not just as a something that you might do after a certain point in your career and as a retirement role, but it's something that's a really viable career option, somewhere that you can find opportunities to learn and grow and succeed as a lawyer, because I know for me anyway, it was definitely something that I was a bit hesitant when I was thinking about taking on this role. Not for very long, I didn't immediately struck a chord with me and I practically chased it down. But I think at first, when the prospect of working in not-for-profit was presented, I immediately thought, well, that's not me, I've worked in corporate roles and it's probably not going to be dynamic enough and it's maybe not going to be high performing enough. I had a real misconception about what the not-for-profit sector meant and I was completely wrong. So dynamic it challenges me every day to do something new, to be innovative. You're trying to do a lot with not much at all, and it's really allowed me to build great connections with firms and work with a lot of really great external lawyers, which is something that I initially thought well, I won't be able to do that. Dispelling the budget in not-for-profits how can you do that? So coming up with innovative ways to deliver a world class legal function for cancer council has been part of the joy of doing the work. So, yeah, I'm thrilled to receive the award that recognizes all of that and happy to promote what we do here and the not-for-profit sector in general. That's amazing. Well, congratulations again. That is a huge achievement and I hope that you continue to continue to celebrate, because we should celebrate all our wins, and that's a massive one. So definitely continue to celebrate.

Speaker 1: 35:20

And I love how you spoke about the not-for-profit sector as well, because maybe some people listening might be thinking about going to the not-for-profit sector and what does that look like for my career? And clearly it is a dynamic base to be in and the fact that there might not be a big budget for certain things does really force you to be creative. It even pushes you to think outside the box, which would be a very exciting space to be in. So you're using beyond your legal skills. It's thinking differently. Yeah, absolutely yeah.

Speaker 1: 35:52

And I think I always thought that when you're looking for your first role, when you're leaving law school, you're sort of thinking about well, am I going to go into private practice? If I go into anything that's not private practice, the sort of down the more humanitarian path, the NGO path, not-for-profit path. You're almost thinking about pigeonholing yourself that early in your career and I know that there was that sort of concern for me as well about my job selection, about not wanting to pigeonhol myself, and I even felt that when I was looking at this role too, 12 years into my career, thinking, oh, am I going to then go down that track? And something else I've learned is that you're not boxed into anything. Why do we have this mindset where we think that we're going to be fixed in a particular industry or sector? And even though I've shown myself that multiple times, it's still something that, in the back of my mind, came up for me when I was looking at this role. And obviously that's not how I see things now.

Speaker 1: 36:57

In this in-house team we're doing a lot of corporate agreements, we're dealing with privacy, we're responding to the same issues that so many in-house teams are dealing with. And I think for me, part of realizing that was also surrounding myself with people in the in-house space, connecting through industry gatherings and conferences, going to the ACC National Conference and State Conferences, the In-View Conference, just being around other in-house lawyers, and you start to realize that actually there's a lot of commonality between all of us and what we're working on, the issues that affect us. So I think that's one of the beautiful things about working in-house is that you can gather some tools in a specific area, but broadly speaking, you've got a skill set that's really transferable and you're really not boxed into anything. You know the wealthy roaster. I'm glad you addressed that. I love that. So I think that there might be some people wanting to move in-house, but maybe that might be the concern of boxing myself in. So I really like to address that.

Speaker 1: 38:02

From your experience, from your network and community of having those conversations, that, yeah, you don't really box yourself in at all, I mean, I certainly think that some transfers are a bit harder to do, and then you've got to get creative. Well, how can I gain some more knowledge outside of my job? That's going to help in that space. Is it going to be volunteering on a board? Can I do some study, or should I connect and go to some industry events learning more about that sector? So I think, yeah, don't let your own imagination hold you back. Love it, love it.

Speaker 1: 38:34

What I really love is your Instagram handle, the me shapes lawyer. Let's talk more about that. I feel like you represent this to a team, the me shape lawyer. But can you tell my audience what this means for you to be a me shape lawyer? I think like we covered it in this conversation, but yeah, I'd love to hear more about it. Yeah, sure.

Speaker 1: 38:54

So I created this Insta page about six months ago when I sort of thought you know, I post about the normal things on my personal Instagram page, but it's boring and getting a bit over posting pictures of my kids. I'm doing some really cool, exciting things in the law and thought, you know, I actually would like to start talking to an audience of early career lawyers, law students, but mostly also just people who were just like me a few years ago. You know, maybe early to mid career lawyers who weren't very happy in what they were doing or unsure about making a change, unsure about what you know a happy career in the law could look like and it was really. It was off the back of reading Peter Connors ebook about the T shaped lawyer and what it meant to be a T shaped lawyer that I had this concept floating around in my brain about. It's great for us to embrace the T shaped model and I wholeheartedly agree with Peter's T shaped model about, you know, developing deep expertise in the law but also broad commercial skills. You know, project management skills, understanding technology and to be able to be a really effective in house lawyer. But also, for me, the only way I can be an effective lawyer is if I'm being myself, if I'm able to still draw upon who I am, and I actually think that that's an essential part of being, you know, an effective professional. You can't just be your skills, we are whole people and we bring ourselves to work. And we all know, you know it's. We've been talking about diversity, inclusion for so many years and every you know organization out there knows the value of people bringing them whole, their whole selves, to work and what that adds to business, and it's no different, I think, in our practice of the law.

Speaker 1: 40:48

So yeah, I came up with this, with this little handle, the Meshake Lawyer and didn't really know what it would become. I still don't really know what it's going to become. I'm just having fun posting some things in there, just, you know, documenting my, my own journey, my thoughts. But to me, you know, a Meshake Lawyer is someone who you know has, has skills and experience that's deeply personalized and that those personal values and principles guide your professional life. And I think, you know, when you can form your career path based on those unique skills, personal brand and encompassing who you are and what matters to you, you can find a really satisfying career in the law and I think that's open to you, no matter where you work. You know, I think, yes, I get to work in a space that's a very happy place in the law. You know I'm working in not-for-profit, it's very feel good.

Speaker 1: 41:44

But I think that you know some people are really passionate about tech, other people are really passionate about the yeah, construction industry, and I think just drawing on your passion is it's definitely one thing. What do you bring uniquely as a person? You know, are you, you know, are you really adaptable? Do you really enjoy change? Do you like moving around project to project? Can you work in an organization where they really need someone to actually partner with them on projects and being part of that really dynamic theme? Yeah, just sort of tapping into what, what makes you you, and shaping a career that's uniquely yours, not being constrained by what we think we have to be, not being constrained by everything we've sort of just talked about, not being constrained by your PQE or the following the traditional path. That I think that that's that's probably the strongest message for me is just just write the book on what you should be doing in your career. It's happens, what matters to you, and create your own your own rulebook. So, yeah, I think you know just it's work for me.

Speaker 1: 42:49

It might just be luck, but you know, I really do think that when you, when you start to sort of travel in the direction that is aligned with who you are and what matters to you, the friction reduces, you'll start to feel happier. The things that are, you know, that do require energy in your life will be coming from a full bank of energy rather than something that feels depleted, and that you know that matters when you've got life outside of work, when you've got responsibilities outside of work or just interests that you want to pursue. You know I love doing floristry. I've done about 14 weddings and I absolutely love doing it, and you know I've been able to do it. I've been able to do a bit of that whilst being a lawyer. You know I love spending time with my kids. I'm learning pottery and making, making lots of pottery at the moment.

Speaker 1: 43:37

So, yeah, I think my energy bank outside of work needs to be quite full as well, because I don't get all of my enjoyment out of being a lawyer. So, you know, even even recognizing that and being able to admit that, I feel like you know, early on in your career. That's a bit of a sub subject. Don't talk about enjoying things outside of being a lawyer. Now that you have fun outside of being a lawyer, like, yeah, that's so cool that you yeah that you've been able to recognize that, and it's so liberating, like knowing that there's other things outside of work that fulfill you. And I think a lot of us put so much pressure that our work has to be everything to us, but it really doesn't Like it's great for it to fulfill a part of us and to drive us, but there's other parts in your life where you get to just play and have fun and enjoy, just like you do with floristry and pottery with your girls, and like, yeah, that makes you even more as a lawyer too. Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 1: 44:33

So, yeah, I think you know it's taken time and lots of moments of thinking about, you know, whether this industry was the right one for me. I haven't always felt this happy. I've had a couple of years now where I'm starting to sort of realize that actually all these fibs I've called myself about how I had to do law and where I had to be to be successful was nonsense. I was telling myself to kind of keep myself small, safe, hold back, don't be big, don't step outside of the mold. And it's only since stepping outside even more you know keep taking those steps outside that I am experiencing this sense of purpose and joy and I really love being a lawyer now and I can genuinely say that. You know, it gives me so much joy to be able to solve problems by reviewing contracts and helping people to set up new lines of business or just making something that's quite stressful to a lot of people seem quite straightforward and there's so much value in that. But when you're also doing it in an industry where you're doing it for a purpose that resonates with you, that has some meaning to you, whatever that is then it's so much more enriching. And I had experienced this when I was working in agribusiness. I've experienced this when I was working in construction. So it's not just new, it's not unique to working in not-for-profit at all. It's those moments where I've thought, yeah, I'm really, really enjoying what I'm doing and I'm really in the flow of it. So it's not a newfound feeling, but it's.

Speaker 1: 46:07

You know, life can change and what drives you can change as well. You know we're not stagnant. We change as human beings. Our priorities change, our energy levels change. So I think knowing as well that change is a natural part of life and who we are, and it should be a natural part of our careers as well and I think that we do have these sort of limiting beliefs and dialogues about what it takes to be a successful lawyer, even though, as smart human beings, we know that we change and we grow and we evolve and the two just don't always align. So, yeah, I think it's been nice to be able to share a bit of that through postlets coming through on my page. It is no, it is. I love following along. It's so joyous and it's so real and I can tell it.

Speaker 1: 46:51

When you said that you genuinely love being a lawyer Like I really can see that like and hear it in your voice. Obviously, the people listening won't be able to see you like I am right now on Zoom but I can see it in your face, but I can hear it in your voice too that you genuinely have found your place and you've created this space for yourself. You know, rather than you fitting the mold into what a successful lawyer should be or whatever it may be, you've actually created that version for yourself and you're living that right now. And, yeah, I also love how you said that it's not new for you around, like having that purpose behind what you're doing, like in every industry you've found really aligned with the industry that you're in, and I think that's really important because I know sometimes you can get bogged down in like, oh, we're just reviewing contracts and all like it can seem quite heavy and boring, but really there is that greater purpose and when you can link that to you know, oh, this is actually really impacting this industry, this is how my work actually will, you know, help people and it gives you that greater meaning and purpose. So, yeah, definitely love that. You've spoken about that too. Yeah, and I think you go through seasons as well. You know your purpose doesn't always have to be the same as the organization's purpose. Sometimes the purpose is paying your bills and feeding your family, absolutely, yeah, and that's great, like that's so fulfilling, you know. So I think there's a lot of pressure to find a career that really speaks to you and everything about what you believe in, and that's not the message I'm trying to share. But I think that knowing what you're there for at that point in time, knowing what is your purpose at this point in time and being okay with it.

Speaker 1: 48:28

Changing. You know when you're, you no longer need to prioritize just paying the bills or just getting the experience like what next? So just not feeling held back, I think, is a really important lesson that I've learned and it's what has shown me and given me the confidence to keep making those changes. And it doesn't necessarily mean, you know, leaving a role every 20 years on us, but it's, you know, making those changes internally, like you know. Do you take on that promotion that's being offered? Do you decide that you're going to take on a, you know, a volunteer role outside of what you're doing for work? And, yeah, just thinking about how does that, how can you bring a part of yourself to those things? Definitely that really well said.

Speaker 1: 49:13

And before we wrap up, liz, what does career confidence mean to you and what's one practical tip you can offer the audience to build their confidence in their career as well? I think career confidence to me means not being afraid to show up as who you are and not being afraid to make change when it's when it's not right, when you're not working in alignment with you know, with your values or your purpose. I think you know practical tip would be to start to map out and understand what your values are and what your skills and your strengths are, and certainly listening to your podcast, maria, and working with career coaches is a great way to do that. You can do it that way. You can do it through trial and error. It takes a bit longer through trial and error. That's the way I do it and I think there's so many resources available to early career lawyers and to students, mid and late career lawyers to actually be able to tap into that now more than there's ever been, and really accessible resources to be able to understand different ways of practicing, different ways of doing the law. So I think confidence is this is a wise public speaking coach that talks to me about this.

Speaker 1: 50:40

Confidence is evidence. We talk a lot as lawyers about saying you know, I'm confident that you could do XYZ, and we do that based on precedent or knowing what's happened before. So confidence is just about practicing what you want to do and looking at the evidence that you've built. Don't have these self-limiting beliefs. Draw upon the evidence that you've got. No, I am actually an excellent lawyer. Look at what I did over here. Look at what I did over there and I think another really important part of confidence is actually courage.

Speaker 1: 51:12

You know, having the courage to do something where there's no guarantee, there's no clear answer, that is, I think that as lawyers, that's something that we tend to have an allergic reaction to and we run a mile because we want evidence. We're all about the precedent and we look to other people. We look to you know, have they done that? Has somebody else done it this way? Did it work out? If I can't draw upon my own evidence, did somebody else do this? Sometimes? You just have to have courage. You just have to trust that you are capable, that you have the inherent skills that you've made it this far. Look at all the things that you've done in your career so far that maybe you know law student version of you would have thought was impossible. So don't get afraid to take those, to take those leaps of faith.

Speaker 1: 52:00

Really well said, really well said. I love that you combined both the evidence piece and the courage as well, because it's like, yes, good to have the evidence, but also take the leap. And do you feel like in-house? Really I know this. I said that was my last question before we wrap up, I feel like I've got one more question. Do you feel like being in-house really does build that courage Because, whereas in private practice it's a little bit more linear, it's a little bit more safe, you're surrounded by other lawyers Like, whereas in-house it's kind of like you really do just have to be that decision maker and kind of jump into things even if you don't know the answer. Do you feel like that's helped build courage as well within you? Like definitely, yeah, I think you can't come into an in-house role being too confined in what you're there to do.

Speaker 1: 52:44

Yeah, essentially, you're there to do whatever the business needs you to do. From a legal perspective, obviously you know doing it properly. We've got our duties to uphold, we've got our professional skills to put into play. But where you can't you know where you can't sort of give the answer by yourself, the resources to draw upon there's speaking with specialists externally, but at the end of the day, you're the one that needs to deliver that to the business and find out the answer. So yeah, I think that you do have to sort of break down a lot of those preconceptions about who you are, what your skills are.

Speaker 1: 53:19

Your skills will change and grow in this role when you, you know well, it's sort of, yeah, get on board and be prepared to grow, or it's possibly not the place for you, but I do think that yeah, it is. It's a really, it's a really varied, dynamic place to be in house, and I mean, of course, there are in-house roles where you can be a specialist in just a couple of particular areas, but most of the in-house roles I've worked in have definitely been very varied and given me the confidence that you know, one day I'm a Cal lawyer, the next day I'm a trains lawyer and can get up and do that, get up and learn new subject matter and apply the same skills to it. Definitely, yeah, absolutely. Now, where can my audience find you connect with you? Obviously, you mentioned your Instagram handle, but and I'll put that in the show notes yeah, where can they connect with you? Essentially, yeah, they can connect with me on the Meshack lawyer. It's a work in progress.

Speaker 1: 54:12

I'm learning how to be competent in social media. I think you're great at that. Definitely, not require strength. You know LinkedIn and, yeah, you know. Look, I put a couple of posts up before on LinkedIn, regularly commenting on other people's posts, saying happy to be someone that people reach out to and, yeah, that often stands Anybody who's thinking about a career change and isn't sure. I'm happy to share what I know Amazing, amazing. I put all of those details in the show notes so everyone can connect with you and DM you and all of the things.

Speaker 1: 54:46

But, yeah, thank you so much, liz, for being on the Career Confidence podcast sharing all your experience and wisdom. I've got, yeah, a lot from this conversation. I know that my audience will find lots of value as well. So, thank you, thanks, maria, it's been a pleasure, it's so great, and I love what you're doing as well. So, yeah, it's a hugely valuable resource, I think, the one that I wish I had had around when I was in my early years of practice. Yeah, that's been great, thank you. Thank you so much. Thanks for tuning into the Career Confidence podcast, like what you learned today. Why not share this episode with your work, bestie, and leave us a five-star review on wherever you listen to your podcast on? We'd absolutely love to get into more years and help more women, just like you, build fulfilling and thriving careers. Until next time.