The Career Confidence Podcast
The Career Confidence Podcast
69. Career Reinvention and the Future of the Legal Profession
It's no secret that the legal profession is changing rapidly, especially with the introduction of AI.
This is giving us exciting opportunities to expand our knowledge and careers beyond the traditional legal roles that have been available. Our guest today will give us lots of insights about the future of the legal profession and how you can future proof your career.
Our guest is Helen Doukas who is a lawyer that has spent most of her career in-house in the fast paced tech industry, working with companies like Uber and Yahoo!.
Helen is all about empowering people to create a career that they love through understanding their own points of satisfaction and the future of the jobs they are interested in.
And she is also currently undergoing her own career transition that she will share more about in this episode.
In this episode, Helen and I chat about:
- How to move through the challenges that come with career transitions
- How to gain a deeper understanding of your points of satisfaction so you can create a career you love
- How to create the career you desire through the power of your thoughts and intention
We talk about this and so much more. Now let's dive into this episode with Helen.
Connect with our Guest:
Instagram: @nuvo.work
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helen-doukas-a45896157/
Connect with the host:
Website: https://marijaduka.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marija-duka/
Instagram: @marija.duka
Click HERE to sign up to the free 3 mindset shifting e-lessons.
Welcome to the Career Confidence Podcast, the podcast for driven lawyers wanting to step out of the traditional path and build fulfilling and purposeful careers. I'm your host, maria Dukar, legal counsel and career coach, helping you navigate your career with intention and confidence. In this podcast, we don't shy away from having real conversations about topics that matter to us. Driven AF go-getters From manifesting your dream career, negotiating the salary you deserve, creating your personal brand, knowing when it's time to pivot. We cover these topics and so much more. You ready, let's dive into today's episode.
Speaker 1:It's no secret that the legal profession is changing rapidly, especially with the introduction of AI. I feel like it's about time, because legal profession is always the last to change. This is giving us exciting opportunities to expand our knowledge and careers beyond the traditional legal roles that have been available to us for what I feel like has been centuries. Our guest today will give us lots of insight about the future of the legal profession and how you can future-proof your career. Our guest is Helen Dukas, who is a lawyer that has spent most of her career in-house in the fast-paced tech industry, working with companies such as Uber and Yahoo. Helen is all about empowering people to create a career they love through understanding their own points of satisfaction and the future of the jobs they're interested in, and she's also currently undergoing her own career transition that she will share more about in this episode.
Speaker 1:Now let's dive into this episode with Helen Dukas. Hey, helen, welcome to the Career Confidence Podcast. I'm so excited to be chatting with you today. So good to be here. Thanks, raya. Well, we've been chatting offline for a while now, so this has been a long time coming in terms of us actually recording a podcast. So I feel like all our conversations are podcast episodes anyway. So it's good to. I love chatting with you. I love it too.
Speaker 1:I've learned so much from you and I can't wait for my audience to hear more about you. So we love career transition stories on this podcast and my audience loves hearing about it. You're currently in the midst of your own career transition. Can you walk us through that, what that's been like and, I guess, what your goals are as well?
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure. So I've just spent about 15 years in the legal space and I just recently had a baby but also quit my job as general counsel for a global tech company, which I loved actually, I really really enjoyed my job. But for me, being on maternity leave as well, I guess, gave me the space to really think about it. I've got another calling and I'm the type of person that when a calling gets louder and louder, eventually I go okay, I acknowledge you, and I pursued it. So it's a little bit experimental for me too, in the sense that it's the first time I've done a transition like this. I've done lots of different transitions before. This is probably my biggest one yet, but I feel I've had a lot of practice and it's been a long time coming and I've planned it and I think sometimes jumping straight into something is the way to go For me.
Speaker 2:I've got kids, I've got obligations, so for me, planning something in advance and figuring out how I'm going to apply the gaps to keep my current life sort of ticking over was really really important. So what I'm going into is my own business. I'm actually also keeping an eye in the legal space as well, so I'm definitely still exploring that. I'm focusing on progressive tech and AI. When it comes to the law, though, that's what I love doing, so that's what I'm going on progressive tech and AI.
Speaker 2:When it comes to the law, though, that's what I love doing, so that's what I'm going to focus on, and my business is all about getting people into careers that they love, particularly in the tech space, so I'm really interested in this idea about where the future of work is going. I'm interested in this idea that we really need to get more people doing work that they love, which I know is a topic that's really close to your heart as well, and I'm interested in and this is probably slightly off that tangent but I'm also interested in how technology is going to evolve, how it's going to shape work, and how the legal and regulatory mechanisms behind that are going to keep up.
Speaker 1:How the legal and regulatory mechanisms behind that are going to keep up. I love it. So many like varied passions, but they all actually intertwine so beautifully as well and we're going to definitely be going into those areas that you just touched on. You know, in terms of the future of careers and tech and how that impacts our jobs, and I can't wait to dive more into that.
Speaker 1:But just going back to making a transition obviously comes with its challenges, right, like any. Even if you're transitioning within the law or completely out of the law, you know what are some challenges that do come up for will have come up for yourself or maybe people that you've had in your community, and you know how can you move through these challenges, because sometimes, like, they can be so overwhelming where it stops you from then making that transition, but how can you move through them so that you do end up, you know, taking that leap into an area of work that you do love what I've found is that professional growth and career transitions, big or small, are really at the apex of that, in the sense that they're like bold change.
Speaker 2:They're bold professional growth it's doing something you haven't done before. Professional growth, actually, and at least for me, has been about personal growth. So it's been about what is the thing in me, what is the shadow in me, what is the limiting belief that's stopping me from doing the next thing? And so the one thing I would say about career transitions is I start by looking at well, what do I need to evolve within myself so I can get to where I need to go? And that really is how I start any change or any project. I start by figuring out what it is that I need to evolve within myself, and that takes time. So the first thing I'll say is my approach takes time and, depending on what the project is or what the evolution is, really guides the amount of time that's needed. So that's probably where I would start For the project that I'm doing at the moment.
Speaker 2:One of the things that I've done is hitting the streets and talking to strangers and asking them questions about their careers. Now, I'd spent many years trying to figure out what it was that I loved, and I always tried to make career decisions consciously, based on an understanding of where I was at the time and understanding of my options and making aligned choices. And I ended up speaking to a lot of people in my life about the same types of things and over time I sort of evolved a little approach or methodology, I guess, to doing it. That's really been helpful for me, and so I loved those conversations so much I thought there's probably something in expanding the conversation, because I want to know what other people are thinking about their career. I want to know are people doing what they love, are they not? I want to know, if they're not, what's blocking them? So, to come back to your question, one of the answers that I get when someone's, let's say, they're a lawyer, but they want to be a project manager, and so when I ask them, what's your biggest block Finances right, unsurprisingly, money is something that comes up.
Speaker 2:So it could be personal finances, it could be funding of an industry. There's lots of other interesting reasons that come up, but that's like a really, really practical one, and I think it's one where most people say, well, hang on, I've set up a life like this. How can I go and make this change when you know I've set myself up that I need to be doing what I'm doing? And the first thing I'll say, that is a very, very valid consideration. It's a big consideration for me, it's a consideration for those all around us and, without going into too much detail, the depth of the how I think planning is really important when it comes to finances.
Speaker 2:I think being creative, being creative of what your options are, being creative of what your different skill sets are, and being open to having a bridge role you know, a role that's in between where you are now, where you want to be. It's doing something like what you're doing. It's doing two things in parallel, but maybe like a reduced version of one or both of them, so that you can balance thing out. For me, it was even looking at my lifestyle, so that's something that I did and going. Okay, where am I willing to, I guess, adjust or make small compromises so I can fit in this new thing that I want to do?
Speaker 1:So true, and they're all like practical, real things that people deal with that do block them, because there's obviously that self-belief side of things, of course, the limiting belief side but it's also practical. It's like how can I actually do this when I'm so used to this lifestyle, or how can I fit this in? You're right, there are so many creative solutions. It doesn't have to be just jumping straight into that new venture. It can be having that bridge role or doing things parallel, like I am, and, I guess, being okay with that as well, because you also have to make peace with like for me, for example, like doing something parallel. Sometimes you can't give something as much time and love that you really want to because of having to manage dual roles as well. So I guess, like, whatever choice you do make, at the end of the day you've got to make peace with that and be okay with the compromises that also come with that decision, just like any decision in life as well.
Speaker 2:And I love that, maria, because to me, I guess the extreme version of that is motherhood. It's like I want to, you know, bring these lives into the world and I want to raise my kids, but I also want a career and sometimes I feel like in doing one, I'm not doing the other, maybe to the degree that I would like to be executing on it. And so, yeah, doing two jobs in parallel is definitely like the same sort of thing. Yeah, doing two jobs in parallel is definitely like the same sort of thing. Another way that many people might be experiencing this is if even your current role it's like what projects you say yes and no to, and if you say yes to too many, are you then compromising like one for the sake of the other? So I guess it's this constant, like balancing of all the different moving pieces that is something that we're all grappling with to some degree.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like we're always balancing things right, like whether, even if you just have the one job that you're focusing on, you might be taking on too much, not realising how much you're taking on until, like you, yeah, feel okay and like exhausted or overwhelmed by it, or like home responsibilities too, like especially if you have, like a mortgage and you have your own home, and like things you have to do around the house and that kind of stuff. Like we're always balancing things anyway, but it's just finding the time for what's important for you to prioritize, I guess, as well, and what inspired you from your own career journey to empower people to create a career they love. Like what's guess that why behind what you're creating now for other people?
Speaker 2:To me, the seeking of knowledge is one of the things that drives me, and I found an outlet for that in my career. So for me, it was always something that was an outlet for me to pursue, something that mattered to my life overall, or maybe like a meaning to my life overall, and so my happiness at work was such a big part of my happiness overall that I just realized how important having a career that you loved was, and I also realized that at 17, we're pushed into these positions, or at 18 or whatever, when we're finishing school, or maybe even earlier for some of us. We're pushing these positions. We're making lifelong decisions about what it is that we want to do, and I think for many of us, we're too young. We're too young because we don't understand ourselves. We're too young because we don't understand the market. We haven't had enough experience. That was certainly the case with me.
Speaker 2:So I spent five years doing my double degree. I got to the end of it. I went into a law firm because I was like, well, this is what I do Now. I've got a law degree and I didn't like it. It was so misaligned with who I was like, from the energy of it, from what I had to wear, from how I had to speak, from how I had to think. It wasn't an issue with the law firm, it was a matching issue.
Speaker 2:And I really got down at this period of my life because I thought I've invested all this time and money and energy into something that actually isn't aligned. And so then it was a searching for me Well, if not this, then what? And then it was well, how do I figure it out? It was I couldn't find any obvious resources at the time, and that's kind of when my journey started and I realized the significance of this. And then, as my path went on and I was actually doing work that I love, I was in house, I was in the tech sector, I was in a space that I really enjoyed, and I kept calibrating and adjusting as I went through my career. But I came across so many people that, off the record, were like that's not really digging this, and I saw how it was impacting people, and so, yeah, for me, that's why it matters. It's something that matters, and I'm not sure that we've quite nailed it as a society in terms of matching people or helping people find, you know, a more aligned path for them.
Speaker 1:I love that and I agree, like in terms of I feel like coming out of high school kind of being pushed into a certain direction and you're not knowing yourself, you're a child, like when you're 18, you are still a child and you just kind of like make this decision based and I guess, the resources that you have around you maybe you have, like parents that might be in the industry or whatever like I guess your way of making that decision is quite limited and you don't really know until you do start working and, as you said, like you went into a law firm and you found out quickly that wasn't the environment for you, and I think there needs to be more option even earlier on as well for these young people so they can make the best decision for them in terms of where they fit, rather than just having this one way of like I, after law school, you just go into a law firm and that's the only way.
Speaker 1:So I love that things are starting to change, but we still have a long way to go, I think, in terms of providing more resources and opportunity for people to do something that they love, and sometimes you don't really know until you start trying different roles really, and refining and working it out as you go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think trial and error is really important, and I'm I think there's a missing piece, though, which is you've got to go through the trial and error, but maybe there's a way where you can do a bit of work beforehand to increase the likelihood that the thing that you land on you will like when you do it. And I think the other piece probably that we don't focus on enough when we're thinking about careers. You know, as a society as a whole is, but what will the job market look like in five years? What will it look like in 10 years or 15 years? Now, as many people as you ask that question to you'll get a different answer.
Speaker 2:Nobody really knows, but it's really an important question. It's an important question because the answer to it determines the career path that you'll be doing when you graduate. If you're now becoming a lawyer, you need to understand what the law will look like in 5, 10, 15 years' time, and you need to figure out if that's something that you're likely going to be interested in. And so, I think, the discussion of technology, how it's influencing the future of work is actually a really important part of the question to well, what's your dream job?
Speaker 1:I love that. I guess now let's touch on another way at that point where we are talking about tech and the legal profession. I guess, in your own opinion and from your observations, what do you think the future of work looks like in the legal profession? And you know talking about that in the element of the tech space.
Speaker 2:I think, to answer that question, I'll probably start broader. Can I start broader? Yeah, of course you can. So what does the future of work look like? The future of work look like and the obvious starting point for me, based on, most recently, the tech that I think is poignant is how is AI going to shape the future of work? And I think, probably quicker than any of us expected, or that many of us expected, we are going to become a tech-enhanced workforce in ways that we probably didn't expect.
Speaker 2:An interesting way of looking at it is if you look at an extreme example of where AI is taking us, you could look at something like Yuval Harari's Homo Deus or Sam Altman's manifesto, moore's Law of Everything, and so in these books and many others there's sort of an extreme exploration of where AI might take us, or where technology might take us, and that could be to a place where it becomes so advanced, so evolved, that it actually takes over the skills that humans have, and this really changes the nature of what humans can do for work. And the extreme version is actually AI will be able to do all the work and many, if not all, humans will be doing things because they love to do those things, not because they have to do those things. And there's many different ways that human beings can exist in this world. Like universal basic income is a really interesting one. That's been discussed a lot. You know this idea that you get a basic income and it could be distributed by the government, perhaps getting taxes from these tech organizations that are creating these robots that are doing all the work, and so you can exist off that, and then you have time to paint and sing and make art and philosophize. So that's a very, very extreme scenario.
Speaker 2:Now, in that scenario, doing work that you love is basically the only reason why you would now work. Love is basically the only reason why you would now work. So I'm not saying that's the future of work. I'm saying that is an extreme outcome. And even in that outcome, there's one conclusion for me, which is people need to figure out what it is that they love to do and do it. So now, if we come back to where we are now, a more moderate scenario might be that our skill sets are going to continue to evolve to keep up with the tech, so you're going to have to upskill at a much faster rate than ever before.
Speaker 2:Gone is this idea that you go to university, you learn something and then you're done. You work on a career for the rest of your life. So this requires motivation, and this is why the World Economic Forum, in the 2023 report, found motivation is one of the top skills that employees are looking for, because now you need to be motivated to not only go to work and do the thing that you're meant to do, but also to learn new things, learn new skills, up skills and that takes energy, right, maria? Like you know, doing something outside the day-to-day it takes energy and motivation, and so you're in a much better place to do that if you're doing something that you love to do. Also, let's just look at it financially Employers want to hire people that love what they do because they're more motivated, they perform better, they're less likely to turn over, you get more output, you know, in general, and then, from a social perspective, we're happier when we're doing work that we love, and this is good for society, because it's good for society to have more people that are happier.
Speaker 2:To me, it's like all roads point to even tech change, leading to people really being in a position where it's more and more important to do work that you love, and so to me, this is where the two come together, I guess.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I really love that and I think all of the points that you raise are so correct in that when you're doing something you love, you're more energized, you there's more output like there's less, yeah, people that are miserable and because when you are miserable, you're kind of like not wanting to do much and you're just doing the bare minimum. So there's so much benefit for both individuals and organizations to be doing work that you love, and I love that. Tech is like the way it's going. It will make it simpler, but it will also encourage people to be more self-motivated and to upskill where they need to, so that they could end up being somewhere where they actually want to be, rather than just, you know, kind of being complacent to work and just, you know, just accept whatever and kind of like go about your day. Yeah, it's definitely making it, I guess, more accessible to be doing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's spot on and I realise I didn't answer your question because I got carried away with how the future of work is going to change. But to get more specific, with the law and how technology is going to change the law, I think, in the same way that it's going to change all other jobs, we're going to have to become tech enhanced humans, and so, with the law we're seeing already. You know there's software applications that can review contracts, for example. I mean, they're not where they need to be. You still need human intervention, but you can start to see the direction where it's heading. I, for example. But you can start to see the direction where it's heading. I, for example, might use any generative AI tool like ChatGPT or others to create guidelines about a particular area of law, like how should I be using generative AI in the legal team? Or to create marketing 101, training or to summarize case law. All know, as lawyers yes, there are issues confidentiality, ip, like these are taken as read and I think, as lawyers, that we need to acknowledge these and work within the bounds of these, but we need to move beyond it, in the sense that we just need to accept it and we need to find ways to use it, despite all these issues that we talk about.
Speaker 2:And so I can see that generative AI is going to increasingly take over these sort of more routine, perhaps repetitive jobs within the legal system, again paralleling what's going on in other industries.
Speaker 2:And so to me that means that it's going to be the entry level jobs, the paralegal jobs, that are going to be potentially most impacted.
Speaker 2:And so if I'm a paralegal or a grad or someone looking to study law, what I would be doing is I would be learning the legal skills and learning the tech enhancement skills.
Speaker 2:Maybe that looks like really understanding how these tools are being applied in the tech sector, perhaps learning how to code, perhaps, at the very least, learning prompt engineering, and so I would be positioning myself as a lawyer plus a tech enhanced lawyer at the very beginning. So if you've got fewer of these entry level roles let's assume that that is where it goes then now I'd be presenting myself I'm a lawyer, I can do the law, but I also understand the system, so I can help maintain the systems, I can help deploy them, I can help teach the organization how to use them. There's a whole change journey there, and that takes a whole different set of skills. This is how I think, at least in the more near term, these tools are going to be impacting the legal sector, and it's also how I would be approaching it if I was someone that was coming into the legal sector at this time.
Speaker 1:I really like that tip around, yeah, like how you can differentiate yourself as an entry level lawyer, and it actually makes it even more exciting because you might already have that interest in tech. But now it's like even more important to tap into that and upskill so that you can be that differentiating factor in someone's decision to hire you, essentially. But also I like that the way you're describing the changes. It's not this scary thing either of, like you know, they're going to take over all our jobs and that's it. They're gonna, you know, completely control the world, which I really don't like that narrative because it makes, you know, I think people feel really helpless. But rather it's like how can we take this as an opportunity to create different types of jobs that work with the technology and jobs that are more exciting than that? The simple, like data entry and, I guess, the basic tasks that these entry-level jobs require?
Speaker 2:Totally, and no one knows where it's going. Everyone's just speculating Some people with more information than others, for sure. But this is why it becomes so important that you need to become your own futurist. You need to think about the version of the future that you think is most likely to come to fruition. And, own futurist, you need to think about the version of the future that you think is most likely to come to fruition and work to that, and so the other thing to bear in mind is that new jobs will become available.
Speaker 2:So now we've got legal tech roles. You see a lot of lawyers going to work for legal tech firms, and so there's a whole range of opportunities that are going to emerge as well, and so, don't be afraid, it's not a helpful energy to be in. Anyway, it's not a helpful state. So I choose to look at how the future might play out all different possible scenarios and actually just work with the one I think is most plausible and be optimistic about that future in the sense of what I could bring to it and how I might be able to prepare for it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. That's a really great way to look at a really positive perspective, but also a productive one as well. I don't think we have a choice Maria?
Speaker 2:No, I don't think we do, we'll just be paralyzed in fear, and that's not helpful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly right. I mean, in terms of future-proofing our careers, I guess it would look different depending on, you know, the type of role that you have or where you want to go, you know. Is there anything else you'd like to add in terms of how we can future-proof our careers, what we can start doing today, or do you feel like you've already covered that with what you were just saying?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I guess, to summarise it would be become your own futurist. Figure out where you think the future's going. Then adopt the skills you think will be most helpful in that future and hedge your bets in terms of like. Adopt skills that are more broad. So engineering is a really great example of like, something that you know is going to be useful. Figure out how to talk to these machines that are enabling us to be more efficient and effective in our roles. That, to me, feels pretty broad. It's hard to imagine a world where that's not going to be useful. It's hard to imagine a world where understanding this emerging technology like AI is not going to be useful. So adopt those skills in addition to your legal skills. Just hit your bets, really.
Speaker 2:The other way that I would say to use this tech is just to be creative with it. So, for example, if you want to get a particular job and let's say it's a more senior role, like a general counsel role, sometimes it's helpful and beneficial if you've got some sort of leadership that you can show, or if you're comfortable going to conferences and talking, and sometimes something as simple as writing articles getting out there on social media, for some people it may be useful to, I guess, the evolution of their desired career and if that's the case, again, bring these tools into that path as well. So use these tools to help you with copywriting. Use these tools to research the areas that you're interested in. Use these tools to get book recommendations.
Speaker 2:I mean, for me this is like that sort of knowledge accumulation is a big part of, I guess, my personal mission in life, and so I found them to be quite helpful. You know very quickly distilling a lot of information Very useful. Good at you know recommending books, or you know you can even put in well, I like these five books. Can you recommend another five? You know in this style. So there's ways that you can use it when you're shaping a career path that's very unique to you. You just need to sort of be open enough to see the opportunities and just play around with it and see what works.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. I didn't think about the book side of things and accumulating knowledge through these tools as well, so I'm going to have to ask you for some tips offline on you know what's the best way to do that.
Speaker 2:This trial and error, like you were saying. I guess I just kind of poke around, I'm like, oh, that was useful. Okay, I'll try that one again next time.
Speaker 1:That's what it is getting comfortable with it rather than being afraid of it as well. I love that you have this thirst for knowledge, and something that I'd really love to ask you is what form of learning outside of the law do you feel like shapes your career?
Speaker 2:I love this question because I think it is the question. I think if you look at people, you know that have done things they love in their career. I think the answer often lies in the question that you've just asked. And there's two places that I'm thinking of going with my answer, and one is understanding self, because I mentioned earlier that, in my opinion anyway, professional development is about personal growth. It's like what's blocking me and I'm happy to give like a personal example for me.
Speaker 2:For me, being in the law was in my comfort zone. So, even if it was like a really challenging job, you know, with really complex legal issues and operating in the grey, like I was still in my comfort zone in the sense that I was working for an organisation with an established mission. The mission was set, the goals were set, the task that I was asked to do in many cases is set. I get immediate feedback good, bad, you know you need to change this, you need to change that. So a lot of guidance Then. Yes, sure, within that space I could be creative, I can think on my own, and so forth, but I still felt comfortable with the amount of guidance that I was given. So for me to transition, to follow my own mission, which I've spoken about earlier and that is evolving. So exactly where that land is still? It's still a whip, but I realized at some stage that a big block for me was confidence. It was belief in my ability to guide my own mission. You know to wake up and say well, what is it that you want to strive towards? What is the mission that you're going towards? What are you going to do today to get there? And I felt a few times as though I was free, falling because all the structure's gone. I'm sure you could resonate as someone that does your own thing right. It's almost like you end up having to get comfortable with putting one foot in front of the other, in front of the other, and as lawyers we're trained very, very differently. So that was a block that I had to overcome. It was a hurdle for me to even be able to get on the path, and there's many other examples that I could give you. So I think the first thing is knowledge of self is critical, and then evolution right to get you in the path to figure out your block, figure out the shadow, figure out the thing that you want to work through once you work through it, you'll be surprised how career opportunities sort of open themselves up. The other angle for me is knowledge of the container, and the container is the universe, the world, the container in which I operate. That's the other variable. Here there's me and then there's the space in which I operate, and so one of the areas of knowledge that I've been fascinated in by for many, many years is an understanding of how the universe works. So, from all perspectives and I guess a little bit of history is part of that, and I'll give you an example of where I see the connection here in terms of career or achieving anything that you want to achieve I like to try and understand the nature of reality. I'm not a scientist. I'm going to make a disclaimer here. This is just my understanding based on what I read. That works for me, that I found works for me If you look at a theory like wave-particle duality.
Speaker 2:So this idea that any particle at the same time can be a fixed particle with a fixed position, or a wave, so a variable position. So at any time a proton, for example, can be a wave or it can be a particle, and it's bizarre, but it shows this idea that things might not necessarily be as fixed as we might see them. And there was this really interesting experiment that was done. It was called a double split experiment. It's been done a number of times and again, yes, varying interpretations and you know.
Speaker 2:But from what I've read and what I understand, one of the really, really spooky things about this experiment so they like an example of the experiment would be there'd be an object and it had two slits in it and then you would fire like a proton through the slits, or a number of protons through the slits, and the outcome of the experiment is that the proton can act like a wave or a fixed particle. Here's the spooky bit, maria. It's creepy is that when they were trying to figure out why how a single proton was acting like a wave so a possibility instead of an actual thing they put a camera in to observe and figure out what's going on. The act of observation changed how the proton reacted and so instead of acting like a wave, it acted like a particle. The act of observation. So this is the bit where my mind is blown.
Speaker 2:But this kind of got me into a rabbit hole of consciousness, I guess, of observation, but really what a thought can achieve and the impact of a thought in our reality. And I think what I've realized is that a thought is extremely powerful. And so, bringing it back to careers, I think what I was doing before, when I was in the law, was it would be very much action led decision making. So I'd be given a task, I'd be given information and I'd be asked to react, and I'd be in this reactivity mode, and so what I was just doing is basically reacting to other people's thoughts, and I wasn't creating very consciously. And so I had to flip that and I had to say well, let's just imagine for a second that my thought is powerful, that me thinking something changes something.
Speaker 2:So I moved into this, this thought-based creation, and this is, for me, how I was able to make bigger shifts in my life, make bigger changes. So, instead of just doing, doing, doing, doing, reacting, I would stop and I would think, well, what am I trying to achieve? And I would observe it in my mind. I would see the thing that I'm trying to create in my mind and I would focus on that as a starting point. I want to transition to this new career, or I want to improve this particular skill and I would just focus on that and then I would come out and take the action that I would need to take to do it. And it's a sort of a subtle change, but actually a really powerful one. I found myself being in a more creationist type energy than a reactionary energy. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:yeah, I love that you went there, I love this conversation so much because I I believe in, like you know, that you can like manifest your own reality.
Speaker 1:You have so much more control than what you think, and that we do kind of just get stuck in this like day-to-day reactive mode and it's exactly right, like it's safe, like in our legal careers, because we're kind of like in this structure it's already established we're getting work from, like other people. It's very like action, response, action, response, action. You know it's whereas, when you're required to actually go inward and go, hey, what do I actually want to do? How do I want my life to look like? It requires you to just go deeper and actually go beyond your current reality, which is also hard right, because and as lawyers, it's like, well, if it's not, if I don't see it out there, then it's not real. How can I create something that I haven't been able to do before? How can I make this turn into like a real thing for me? And yeah, that is, I think, a challenge that most of us, if not all of us, do face if we do want to create a life and career beyond just what is our career day to day.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally, because in the day to day we're just reacting to what we're given and you keep going with that and you get more of the same as that.
Speaker 2:And yet progress still happens, for sure, but it may happen slower, it may not happen in the way that you want, and I guess all I'm saying is, whether it's a promotion, whether it's a pay rise, whether it's upskilling, whether it's completely pivoting what you're doing, I think the starting point always has to be firstly, well, who am I? What do I need to evolve within myself to get there? And then also, let me observe where I want to go as a starting point and then let me take the action in the day-to-day. But let me get out of the day-to-day for a minute, let me get out of the day-to-day and just focus on that next step that I want to take. And it's funny because all of a sudden you start seeing opportunities that maybe you'd missed before, or you start maybe creating your own opportunities as the day-to-day continues. Anyway, it's just been my experience and I've noticed it with people around me and people that I've spoken to.
Speaker 1:It's sort of like this sort of similar theme yeah, no, I agree, I've experienced that myself and it blows my mind every single time. You know, when you start seeing things that you didn't see before, you create these opportunities for yourself, you're like where did this come from? It's because you've gotten out of the day to day, you've allowed yourself to well to dream as well, to dream bigger and to think outside of what is your current reality. I think it's really important to have that space for dreaming, creating, and we don't do it enough, and I wish it was instilled into our society for us to do it more, because you do it as children a lot more, but then it gets taken out of you when you start go to school and all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, there's so much power in that. I love that.
Speaker 2:I've noticed with my toddler that he can be in make-believe and make make-believe space and he'll find a shell and he'll be like here's my steering wheel. Or he'll find a leaf and he'll be like here are my blueberries, or whatever. And I find that in his mind the joy he gets from the fake experience he loves blueberries the joy he gets from the fake blueberry, it's surprisingly close to the joy he gets from the fake blueberry, it's surprisingly close to the joy he gets from the real blueberry. Right, because in his mind the distinction isn't quite as clear. And I mean, it struck me one time where I realized that I could use it the other way around too. Right, it could. You know, I can sort of respond and meet him at that level For me, like nothing's ever going to be, kind of give me quite the same joy as a glass of wine. You know, no matter how hard I pretend, because I've lost that right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, really enjoying this glass of water.
Speaker 2:That's, you know, the wine in my mind. Oh, I love the kick of the water, yeah, I love the imaginations, though, isn't that incredible?
Speaker 1:So that really does just go to show that, like, even something that's might not be real, like what you think it might be, but that experience you create for yourself does make it seem that way, which then attracts those things coming into your life. If you're looking at it as an adult, you know, by visualizing and by acting as though you're already where you want to be, and and taking that approach to life, like things do end up just coming into your orbit and you're, you know, in your vicinity that you have been, I guess, make believing, for a lack of a better term. So it's interesting. Yeah, we've got a lot to learn from out from kids. They're just, they're so powerful.
Speaker 1:The magical little beings yeah, agree, I know we've spoken a lot about throughout this conversation is, you know, creating a career you love, and maybe you've touched on this already. But, you know, I'd love for you to go a bit deeper in terms of how can someone gain a deeper understanding of their points of satisfaction, to support them creating a career they love, so like, I guess. How can you find out more about what gives you that satisfaction? Like, what are those? Yeah, how can, how can someone do this for themselves?
Speaker 2:thanks for asking that question, because I really I like this concept of points of satisfaction or micro satisfactions. I prefer it to interests. I also prefer the concept of satisfaction to passion, and the reason is because if you don't mind me digressing for a second, but I think the terminology is important when everyone says, find a career you're passionate about, we all know what they're saying. So it's you know, and I myself often have used that phrase. But when you actually look at what passion means, passion is intensity of feeling, the highs and the lows that come with it, and it could be something like love, anger, hate. So passion is a very intense emotion and it can be positive or negative. If you look at satisfaction, that's defined as a consistently pleasant feeling, fulfilling your expectations, and so for me, I like this idea of having as a North Star, like my satisfaction, the thing that satisfies me because I'm going to get there and be pleased. It's going to meet all my expectations or exceed them. It's consistently pleasant. So that's the goal To me. You almost experience passion on the path to that. So you almost experience these ups and downs and these negative and positive emotions. You're going there and you know it's part of the journey. Now, I'm not saying you'll ever like anything, I'm not saying you'll ever reach that North Star where you know there's perfect satisfaction at all times I don't necessarily believe that's the case. But where there's perfect satisfaction at all times, I don't necessarily believe that's the case. But in terms of the North Star that we should be pursuing, that's what I like to at least try to attain, and so I think to get there you almost need a satisfaction blueprint. So me, right now, as I am, what's my blueprint for what that would look like for me? And then I like to extract sort of like micro-satisfactions from the past, the present. I even do a bit of like a look back exercise from the future, where you look back and forward and you see yourself and you see the things, for example as a child, that satisfied you, and there's a particular process that I use for it to really, you know, help draw these things out.
Speaker 2:And what's interesting is that when people do this, sometimes it's like, oh, I've forgotten about that. And me myself I'm like, oh, I've forgotten that. I loved storytelling when I was in high school. And you'll often find that things that you really loved are the things that you're the best at as well, right, they often align your strengths not always, but often, right. So actually, a journey into your points of satisfaction, particularly when it comes to work stuff, is often going to reveal your natural strengths as well. And again, so people experience this idea of that's right, I'd forgotten about that, or, oh, I never put these two together. Actually, this could open up this possibility, and there's that's, you know, when I sort of have taken people in my life through this, I guess methodology it's sometimes it's a reminder of something that you've forgotten, and so you end up with a blueprint of yourself, and I think that's the starting point.
Speaker 1:I really love that perspective. I haven't heard anyone talk about points of satisfaction in that way and yeah, that was really, that was really great. And then, like it simplifies it as well, rather than like, find your passion, find your one passion in life, because it's like you can have multiple points of satisfaction too. What's the common denominator between all of those and where's that leading you? I feel like it's, yeah, a much more accessible way to be doing something that you love. Rather, oh, thank you.
Speaker 2:And then it's about sort of weaving different themes in together and, you know, getting a bit creative as well. So, and each sort of step, each thing that you, that you reveal about yourselves, is going to give you more to work with when it comes to really figuring it out. And the other thing is, like, you're going to change over time. There are parts of you that are going to be pretty consistent and there are parts of you they're going to have new interests. Or, you know, as you evolve, as you work through your shadow and blocks and all the other things like, or as you achieve the goals, just the cold hard goals that you've set for yourself, you know it's going to be a new thing that comes up and emerges and it might completely change your path again.
Speaker 2:So it's not set and forget, it's just a constant journey. But then again, what's not a journey in life? I don't know. I don't know anything I've ever done where I'm like, right, I've reached my destination, like you know, maybe going to Italy or something. And then, even when I'm in Italy, I'm like, right now I've got to go and see the Sistine Chapel. Now, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:It's like it's never ending no-transcript in my mind and then I get them like oh, it's not as great as I. What I thought, like when I went to Paris, like I thought it was going to be this most like magical experience, and then it just wasn't that what I thought. And then some people do have like a magical experience in Paris, it just depends. So it is a journey, and like when you're there as well, navigating through that, yeah, and dealing with those expectations.
Speaker 2:I was never, if I'm honest, very good at accepting the journey like it was a real work on for me. I had to work on it to me. I sort of had to come around to this notion that, well, because everything's a journey, if you're always rushing through the transit part, you're just going to be unhappy, you know, for a big chunk of your life. So every time I hit a milestone it was like more evidence to my mind that okay, you still, you still don't feel like you've made it. Okay, maybe you just need to start. And so to me that was a process, and you know, I still kind of work through it. I have to remind myself gratitude and there's a whole bunch of stuff that you can do around it, but I don't think it comes naturally to a lot of us.
Speaker 1:No, I think it's a human instinct to just get to that destination, to achieve, to get the instant gratification especially our generation just access to technology and social media yeah, maybe looking at other people thinking that things are actually much more easier to achieve than what they actually are in real life as well, because everything does require that journey. But yeah, it is like a learning process, and an unlearning process as well, of how you used to operate and putting in like a new, I guess, operating system in place for yourself. But it is hard. I struggle with that too. Patience is not my greatest strength, especially when I'm going for my goals.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, no. And then I had kids, yes, and I'm like whoa, this is taking my you know, my being in the moment practice to a whole other level oh, that would definitely make you like so much more patient.
Speaker 1:I feel like parents have this sense of like I don't know, like when I said, like they have this like sense of calm about them.
Speaker 2:I mean, because I guess it's like you have no choice. You know you're going to find it somehow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly right. Before we wrap up, helen, I'd love to ask you what does career confidence mean to you and what's one practical tip you can offer the audience to build their confidence in their career?
Speaker 2:Career. Confidence means self-confidence, and one practical tip to build self-confidence I would be really conscious of the areas that you don't believe in yourself, because for most of us, there are parts that we do believe in ourselves and parts that we don't. So I gave the example earlier of me believing in my own mission, me believing in me being the driving force of something without structure, and so that took me a long time to figure out. By the way, to me it was a profound realization, even though I say it now like it was obvious, but it wasn't. And so it's like what's that thing for you? And being really open to the moments where you want to do something and you can feel yourself hesitating, and it can be something really small.
Speaker 2:Like I mentioned before, I'm doing street interviews at the moment, so going up to strangers. One of the reasons I'm doing street interviews this is not the main reason, but this is one of the added benefits is that every time I go out there, I face the fear of rejection because I'm going to have people say to me no, I'm not into what are you doing, and you know, in those moments I go. Well, what am I feeling about myself when they say that it's this courage muscle that I'm building. So it's like in these small moments in life you'll see little hints of where you don't believe in yourself because something will happen. And that inner voice is going oh, you're not good enough, oh you made a mess of it again.
Speaker 2:And so once you figure them out, then there's a whole bunch of different methodologies that can shed light on them and help to start changing them and evolving them. That would be my biggest tip Figure out where your limiting beliefs are, in particular around confidence, shed light on it, shine a torch onto it, and then use one of the many tools that are available to try and evolve that and put in place a new belief that just serves you better. And it can be something as simple as say the opposite thing out loud. You know, I believe in my own mission. I believe in my own mission. I believe in my own mission, and if you say it to yourself frequently enough, you actually might start to believe it.
Speaker 1:That's such a great tip. I really love that. I really really love that because it's so true, like I feel like confidence is gained through action and just facing you know your fears, your self-limiting beliefs head on, because otherwise how are you going to overcome it? And it's a muscle, like you said. You're building your courage muscle at the moment by doing these straight interviews and you'll grow so much more and so much more quickly by doing that instead of just being at home and thinking about it. You know, thinking about doing those interviews. So I really love that and it takes courage for you to, you know, be doing what you're doing in terms of, like, just going up to strangers and asking them to have, you know, a moment of their time to ask them questions, like because that's, yeah, there is that fear of rejection, it's a real fear. I love that. Where to ask them questions Like cause that's, yeah, there is that fear of rejection, it's a real fear. I love that. Where can my audience find you to connect with you and get to know you?
Speaker 2:and your work more. My business is still a whip at the moment. So you can find me on LinkedIn. So a lot of the more legal side of what I'm doing you know I talk about on LinkedIn and then NUVO work, N-U-V-O dot work, so that's where you can find me on socials. Yeah, I look forward to seeing people and thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate the conversation. I always love my chats with you. I'm sure we'll keep talking offline, Absolutely.
Speaker 1:I always learn so much from our conversations and there's so much that I'm going to take away from today, especially around like really shining a light on your self-limiting beliefs and everyone gets that. I still get that in my business, like I really do, and there's moments where I feel like I'm top of the world at the time. So I'm like, oh, like I'm really just feeling vulnerable here right now. You know, so it is a constant thing you have to work on, to work on it, doesn't, and so I'm so glad that you spoke about that. Yeah, just thank you for your time, your wisdom, your passion. Just really loved this conversation so much. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Maria. Thank you so much. I always get so much out of our chat.
Speaker 1:Thanks for tuning into the Career Confidence Podcast Like what you learned today. Why not share this episode with your work, bestie, and leave us a five-star review on? Wherever you listen to your podcasts on, we'd absolutely love to get into more ears and help more women, just like you, build fulfilling and thriving careers. Until next time,
