The Career Confidence Podcast
The Career Confidence Podcast
70. Stefanie Costi on Overcoming Toxic Workplaces
Workplace bullying all too often gets swept under the corporate rug.
It's a sad truth that workplace bullying is a daily reality for many individuals. But what makes it particularly disheartening is the normalisation of bullying within certain environments, like law firms.
In the legal industry, where pressure and competition run high, bullying has tragically become an accepted norm for far too many.
But today, we speak to Stefanie Costi who unapologetically calls out this dehumanising behaviour.
Stef is a speaker, writer and lawyer. However, deep down, her true passion lies in advocating for a safer and more inclusive future of work.
Her journey started with workplace bullying that shattered her confidence and left her with workplace PTSD. Instead of staying silent, Stef decided to share her story and make a real difference!
She has delivered keynotes on workplace bullying, psychological safety at work and mental health at the National Press Club of Australia, the University of Technology, Sydney and Canva.
Stef’s words have found a home in The Australian Financial Review, The Australian Women's Weekly, news.com.au, Lawyers Weekly, The Daily Telegraph, Courier Mail, NZ Herald, The Greek Herald, and Women's Agenda. She also recently appeared on the Project sharing her campaign Bonafide workplaces.
In 2023, Stef received the award of Highly Commended in the Wellbeing Champion of the Year category at the Annual Law Society of NSW Awards. She also was a finalist at the 2023 Lawyers Weekly Women in Law Awards in the categories of Wellness Advocate of the Year and Thought Leader of the Year.
Connect with our Guest:
Campaign: www.bonafideworkplaces.com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/stefanie-costi-82bb4b8b/
Instagram: @stefanie_costi
TikTok: @stefaniecosti
Connect with the host:
Website: https://marijaduka.com/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marija-duka/
Instagram: @marija.duka
Click HERE to sign up to the free 3 mindset shifting e-lessons.
Welcome to the Career Confidence Podcast, the podcast for driven lawyers wanting to step out of the traditional path and build fulfilling and purposeful careers. I'm your host, maria Dukar, legal counsel and career coach, helping you navigate your career with intention and confidence. In this podcast, we don't shy away from having real conversations about topics that matter to us. Driven AF go-getters From manifesting your dream career, negotiating the salary you deserve, creating your personal brand, knowing when it's time to pivot. We cover these topics and so much more. You ready, let's dive into today's episode.
Speaker 1:It's a sad truth that workplace bullying is a daily reality for many individuals, but what makes it particularly disheartening is the normalization of bullying within certain environments like law firms. In the legal industry, where pressure and competition run high, bullying has tragically become an accepted norm for far too many. But today we speak to Stephanie Costi, who unapologetically calls out this dehumanizing behavior. Steph is a speaker, writer and lawyer. However, deep down, her true passion lies in advocating for a safer and more inclusive future of work. Her journey started with workplace bullying that shattered her confidence and left her with workplace PTSD. Instead of staying silent, however, steph decided to share her story and make a real difference, and you'll hear more about this in this episode today. Steph has delivered keynotes on workplace bullying, psychological safety at work and mental health at the National Press Club of Australia, the University of Technology Sydney and Canva. She also recently appeared on the project sharing about her campaign, bonafide Workplaces, which we have a link in the show notes so you can go there, check it out and sign it as well. Steph's Words has found a home in the Australian Financial Review, the Australian Women's Weekly, newscomau, lawyers Weekly, the Daily Telegraph, courier Mail, new Zealand Herald and, just to name a few. In 2023, steph received the award of Highly Commended in the Wellbeing Champion of the Year category at the Annual Law Society of New South Wales Awards. She also was the finalist at the 2023 Lawyers Weekly Women in Law Awards in the category of Wellness Advocate of the Year and Thought Leader of the Year.
Speaker 1:This conversation with Steph has really opened up my eyes as to how prevalent this issue is of workplace bullying and how, even to this day, so many people face it and how much it deeply affects people's mental health and well-being. I particularly love Steph's unapologetic and brutal honesty because I truly do believe that, if you are advocating in this space, it is so much needed, because a lot of people are so sick and tired of workplace bullying being swept under the rug and people treating it like a taboo subject. So I am super grateful that Steph is taking on this big beast of a problem in a way that is actually going to make a difference and is already making a difference in people's lives. Now, before you dive into the episode, I just want to say there is a trigger warning in that we do speak about self-harm and suicide, so if you don't feel comfortable listening to this right now, you can skip this episode and tune into other episodes of the Career Confidence Podcast.
Speaker 1:Now, without further ado, let's dive into today's episode with Steph Kosti. Hey, steph, welcome to the Career Confidence Podcast. I'm so excited to be chatting to you today and, yeah, how are you going?
Speaker 2:essentially, Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1:I'm really really excited to be here. I've been a long time listener, so it's actually an honor to be here and a privilege. I feel like you were my first listener. That's my guess. That's awesome, accepting applications.
Speaker 2:It's great. I love your podcast and I love what you stand for and I love everything about your career stuff and how you empower lawyers. It's it's an amazing thing that you do thank you.
Speaker 1:well, I love your personality and you're just a ball of energy and enthusiasm and I feel like you definitely need that in the type of work you're doing, because it's not easy, so I guess let's go there. You are an advocate against workplace bullying and harassment. Where did your passion about this subject come from, and would you mind sharing your story with our audience?
Speaker 2:So it all started when I first began working in law firms. So way back in 2010, my first job working as a paralegal in a law firm, I just witnessed some weird behavior people throwing files at people, people slamming down phones, people swearing at people. And then the next workplace that I went to, it was pretty much a little belittling some humiliation here and there, exclusion. I had a partner and I speak about this a lot told me to put his gumboots on his feet and I'll go into that story because people are just bamboozled by it every time I tell it. A partner asked me to go to Mitre 10 to get him some gumboots and I was a bit unsure as to whether that was in my job description.
Speaker 2:But, like a dutiful, rather paralegal, I went to Mitre 10, picked up the gumboots in his size, came back to the office, walked into his office, placed the gumboots on his desk and I thought, okay, this is the end of this story. Anyway, I office place the gumboots on his desk and I thought, okay, this is the end of this story. Anyway, went to walk out and he goes Steph, would you mind putting them on my feet? No, and I turned around and I didn't know what to do. I kind of looked up and I was like, okay, bent over in my skirt, bent over on all fours, put them on his feet. And then he walked around the office to make sure that they were comfortable. And then he said to me Steph, I've got some back problems. Would you mind taking them off my feet? Now what?
Speaker 1:And I said and we can swear on this podcast.
Speaker 2:And I said okay, so I did, and there was another lawyer watching on and a paralegal, and yeah, I walked out and no one did anything, nobody did anything anything.
Speaker 2:No, he would ask women to make him cups of tea, not the men, though if you're a, you're immune to it. He would avidly berate people in public and make you feel like you were an idiot. He would make you walk on eggshells and effectively kiss the ring and to get ahead, he would pay you minimum wage. He would make you work long hours and he was a tyrant. Fast forward. I've worked in-house. I had a similar experience. I worked for a micromanager. That was really really difficult. So in every single workplace there has been something not quite right. And then, yeah, I was in a workplace not too long ago well, really, quite, really, quite long ago now and I just worked for someone that berated me based on my billable hours, expected me to be a three-year lawyer instead of one-year lawyer, humiliated me on many occasions and just was not a nice person, and that was what led to me reaching rock bottom. It made me hypervigilant, anxious, have panic attacks on the way to work. It was the worst time of my life and it got to the point where I went to my GP and he said to me you've got to leave because this is going to take a toll on your body. And it did. And my GP gave me four weeks on a doctor's certificate and said go and resign. And I did. And they begged me to stay. They wanted me to stay so bad. But I just couldn't. And not in that three month window I went without a job, didn't even have a job line lined up. In that three month window I went to see a psychiatrist. That psychiatrist said to me after a few visits he made his diagnosis and he said well, I went and saw a psychologist and a psychiatrist. But the psychiatrist said to me you've got workplace PTSD. It really sounds like it. I said what Workplace PTSD really is. When bombs go off, right, they don't. I thought that's what PTSD was. You go to soldier, you go to war and that's what PTSD is when you see bloodshed and whatever. But when they looked at me and said yeah, you've got it, I thought okay, and then it's just like well, you've got to see it like this.
Speaker 2:You went into a workplace where you didn't feel safe for a period of time. You had bullets shot at you all day, every day. Those passive-aggressive emails and everything that went with it just took a toll on your confidence. You're hyper vigilant because of it. So every bullet that was fired it just trips away at your mental health and that's what gives you ptsd. And I looked at him and I was like are you joking? And he's like no, no, I'm serious and you need some time to heal. So I took a few months to heal and then I ended up going and working for a place and it was great.
Speaker 2:But my PTSD has always made me second guess myself now. So whilst I am recovered, you never really recover and by the way for everyone listening, I just did the quotation mark you never recover from PTSD. It's something that you just learn to live with. It's kind of made me just reflect on every single decision that I make and, to be honest, as a lawyer, you have enough enough pressure on you, but when you have PTSD and anxiety in the workplace as well, it just compounds the stress and it almost made me leave the law for good.
Speaker 2:I didn't want to be a lawyer anymore, and it wasn't because I wasn't good at the work, it wasn't because I wasn't good with clients, it wasn't because I was not cut out for it.
Speaker 2:Whilst I didn't want to be a lawyer at the start.
Speaker 2:It's because I always wanted to please people and I was a people pleaser and I think that is what made me the target of bullying.
Speaker 2:Fast forward two years after that experience, I wrote a pretty powerful article on how workplace PTSD haunts lawyers and I shared that article to LinkedIn and I expected 20 people to read it and 19 of those to be my family. Over 1.2 million people read it. That's huge stuff. I had 2,500 people reach out to me to say that they had been bullied at work, in the legal profession and in other industries. Suddenly, I was getting speaking engagements because people wanted me to talk about my trauma and I began writing article after article and posting post after post about workplace bullying and harassment and I quickly became this advocate overnight and I never thought I would. I thought this would just be a one-time thing. You know one article whatever, go about my life, continue being a lawyer, it's fine. But it snowballed, and it snowballed fast and it got to the point where the Assistant Minister for Workplace Relations in New South Wales referenced me in a speech in Parliament and commended me on my advocacy.
Speaker 1:That's all that is. Congratulations, by the way.
Speaker 2:Thank you, yeah it's massive and it got to the point where I was on the front page of the Sydney Morning Herald and in the Age shining a light on my advocacy. And for someone that was so scared when they were bullied at work, so scared to have come this far, it's a bit mind-blowing. But I think from my pain I found my purpose and if I had just let that pain be all locked up inside of me and not released it, I wouldn't have discovered my calling. And my calling is to advocate for a safer future of work because I want to make sure that no one goes through what I have gone through. And my experience, in the scheme of things, really wasn't that bad, because part of those people that reached out to me some of those people rather, that reached out to me they were telling me that they wanted to commit suicide and some of them told me that they hadn't been successful in committing suicide because someone had found them in the office. And that happened a couple of days ago. And I know that there was a case in Victoria where the person committed suicide because she felt so under pressure at work and she was a lawyer. Through my advocacy, if I can just change one person's life and just make that person feel not alone. I'm going to do it.
Speaker 2:Then I've done my job and, sorry, I'm getting a bit teary, but this advocacy is my baby. It is everything to me, because when you've been through such turmoil in your own career and you've been in such despair and people are actually reaching out to you and saying, steph, you've made me feel not like I'm not alone. It's the most beautiful feeling and for anyone that's listening, I mean, I haven't been paid for any of my advocacy, and my advocacy is so. It's voluntary. I'm not getting paid for it. I'm not for every post that I put up on LinkedIn or for every article that's been written about me. I haven't been paid for any of it, but I do it because I want to make a difference, and the fact that I am to some degree is amazing for me, because it makes me feel like me coming out, so to speak, hasn't been in vain. So, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And I think that's a very long winded answer.
Speaker 2:How did I, how did I bring myself here?
Speaker 1:No, it's beautiful. I love that you took us on that journey from you experiencing workplace bullying to the PTSD to now. What has brought you to your advocacy work. That was a really beautiful picture that you painted and also very emotional because it's. I can't even imagine being in your shoes and hearing those stories, and they're heavy stories to hear. If someone reaches out to you and essentially says that you know I'm thinking about doing this, you know committing suicide, or someone found me, or that is really, really heavy stuff, like, how do you deal with that? Because that's a lot on someone's mental load and the work that you do is very emotional, driven of course, and you also personally are so passionate about it because you have had your own experiences. How do you manage, I guess, that emotional burden in a way, so that you can still thrive and bring your energy in your daily life as well as bring your energy to advocacy? What do you do to fill up your cup? Essentially?
Speaker 2:I'm a family lawyer, right, yeah? My other half, yeah. So I'm paid to be a family lawyer. So as a family lawyer, you hear some pretty horrific things that people do for each other. So I think not for each other to each other. So I think that's been a good grounding for it. But the more I talk about my experience, the less power it has over me. So whilst people think that it might be traumatizing to read this stuff, it's not For me. It's kind of a release and it's imparting the knowledge that I've gleaned from my experience onto them.
Speaker 2:What do I do to fill my cup? I spend time with people that I love. I have a brilliant husband. I have really supportive friends. I have a really supportive family. I enjoy exercising.
Speaker 2:I enjoy writing obviously that's one of my big passions. I enjoy speaking. I just give myself enough space to realize that burning myself out because of my advocacy and my work is not going to help anyone, and you can't help anyone if you don't put the oxygen mask on yourself first. So I do a range of things, but I actually feel like my advocacy is like my hobby. I actually really like it. I actually like and this is going to sound really, really bad, but I like reading other people's stories and helping people. That's my release.
Speaker 2:Some people say, oh, I like jogging, I like running, I like reading other people's stories and helping people. That's my release. Some people say, oh, I like jogging, I like running, I like yoga, I love Pilates. I actually love listening to people's stories, because it's from other people's stories that you learn, and you learn more about yourself. My advocacy fills my cup. It's turned into something that I do because I love it. It's not work for me Whilst I spend so many hours or I spend about 20 hours a week on it. It's not something that takes it out of me, it's just something that I do. It's like brushing my teeth or having a shower. It's just something that I love to do.
Speaker 1:That's why it fulfills you and it brings you energy right Like when you love something. That's where you know you've aligned with your purpose, because although you're putting in those hours, it doesn't feel like it's hard work for you, because it just drives you really.
Speaker 2:No, it drives you and you don't clock watch.
Speaker 1:No, you don't.
Speaker 2:And for anyone listening to this. If you are watching the clock at work or in your advocacy or whatever, I'm sorry you're in the wrong job. Yeah, you can't sit there and think, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. I'm just watching the clock because I'm watching time pass me by. No, I'm watching the clock because I'm bored and I need to get the fuck out of the place that I'm in.
Speaker 1:It's as simple as that. That's great career advice, guys. No, I agree, though I agree. I think a lot of people waste their time being somewhere where it doesn't feel aligned and they're kind of just waiting for something to happen. It's like, no, come on, you got to take control of your life, of your career. Come on, you've got to take control of your life of your career.
Speaker 2:I don't understand. You spend 90, like, I think, 90,000 hours. I think I Googled it the other day. I think you spend 90,000, don't quote me on that but 90,000 hours at work of your life and, darlings, if you are going to a job that you hate going to because you need to pay a mortgage or whatever, there's far easier ways to make money than that Go collect cans, drive people's cars, wash someone's cars. You don't need to go to a job that you hate going to because you need to keep a roof over your head. There's other ways that you can keep a roof over your head, people.
Speaker 1:There is other ways. Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely, no. I love that. We will take it back to workplace harassment and bullying the heavy subject and then we can move on to the lighter subjects. Obviously, in the space that you work in in terms of advocacy, it's the legal space, although it touches a lot of different organisations, but predominantly you talk about the legal space, although it touches a lot of different organizations, but predominantly you talk about the legal space because that's your experience. So I guess it from your experience and your view, why do you think bullying is so prevalent in the legal industry? Because obviously you've had like 2,500 messages like you get a lot of dms from other lawyers other professionals too, but also lots of lawyers basically saying me too, I'm also experiencing this, I've also felt this before. Why is it so bloody prevalent in the legal profession? Like it's got a simple answer for that.
Speaker 2:yeah, lawyers are lauded for their quick wit and their mouths, but when that quick wit and those words morph into tools of humiliation, that's when there's a problem. When we go through university, in law school and I don't know if this was your experience, maria, but it definitely was mine we are trained to compete with each other, for grades.
Speaker 2:We are trained to get the best argument and we are trained to step all over people. That's effectively what law school tells you to do. Sure, there's a bit of mediation in there, but let's be real. We're trained to be adversarial in terms of our approach. Whether it be negotiating a contract or a family law case, or a criminal law case or an employment law case, lawyers are trained to win. Yeah, and that is where this whole bullying and harassment comes in, because that makes us feel like we need to bully and harass to get what we want. When you go and, for example, I'm a family lawyer, yeah, okay, and you go to a family law case 99 of the people that go to a family well, a family court they want to win. They are out to win. That's why they are instituting proceedings in the court. Yeah, so as lawyers, we are told do everything that you can to make this client win, or there's no winners in family law, but let's go with that.
Speaker 2:Well, I think that's where the bullying and harassment comes.
Speaker 2:Lawyers are often bullied by their clients.
Speaker 2:They're bullied by their colleagues, they're bullied by the judiciary, they're bullied by barristers, because that's exactly what our profession is and it's disgusting and it shouldn't be like that, but unfortunately those habits start in law school and they're not going to go anywhere unless there's mandatory education in law school and in workplaces that this behavior is not on. And the other thing is the regulators aren't doing much about it, they're just letting it go. I mean, if you write to the you know office of the legal services commissioner or the bar association or whatever, it's so hard to institute a claim against the people that are bullying you. It's so hard to institute a claim against the people that are bullying you, so some people are just so exhausted when they're doing that. That's why because workplace bullying and harassment is so prevalent in our industry because people turn a blind eye to it. And for me, as an advocate, what is frustrating is I see all of these announcements being made well being in the legal profession and how to stay well at work. Well honey all bullshit it's all bullshit.
Speaker 2:It's completely all bullshit. Yeah, because we are expected to do long hours, we are expected to win cases, we are expected to craft legal arguments and play well with people when the reality is most well. I'm not going to say most, because I have a few unicorns in my circle and I call them unicorns because I haven't really met many lawyers like them but these people just make it the profession more livable, because there are so many people that bully and harass and they don't deserve to be in our profession, but unfortunately they're rainmakers, so that's why they are.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they're making money, so they're not going to be getting fired anytime soon. So absolutely that's unfortunate truth and reality of what makes law firms go around Exactly Not every law firm, but yeah, it is very prevalent. I've seen it. That's why I never felt like I fit into the traditional law firm setting, very grateful for the type of role I have at the moment where it's nothing like that and I feel like we all like in terms of me and my colleagues, we all like escaped that type of traditional setting where that was bullying was prevalent, it was normal to throw things and swear and call people names and that kind of stuff. But that's not the profession I want to necessarily be growing in. I love that you're talking about this and really trying to and not trying, but really making a change already. And I guess, now that we're on the topic of this being prevalent in law firm, what can be done? You've recently launched a campaign. Would you like to talk a little bit about that and how people can get involved?
Speaker 2:I launched a campaign two days ago, so at the time of recording of this podcast. Yeah, so one thing that I wanted to do is create awareness on workplace bullying and harassment, and I think I've done that yeah, definitely created the awareness we got.
Speaker 1:You got our attention.
Speaker 2:I think as a true lawyer, now that I've created awareness as to what problems have existed in workplaces, I want to do something that's going to change them. And what Bonafide Workplaces and the campaign does is. I want to make sure that Parliament can institute legislation so that workplace bullying and harassment training is mandatory in universities and workplaces. A lot of people say to me because some of the feedback from my advocacy is why should I give workplace bullying and harassment training in my workplace? Is it going to give rise to workplace bullying claims? And my answer to that is well, if your hands are clean, why are you worried about that? Because if your hands are not clean, of course you're going to get a workplace bullying claim, but if people know that there is going to be consequences to their actions, they won't. So what this campaign does is I have a petition I think it's at 470, something like that at the moment and I have a testimonial page where people can submit their stories. So one thing that I'm really, really interested in is collating the stories as many stories as I can of workplace bullying and harassment and getting as many signatures as I can so I can present them to government around Australia, to governments around Australia, everywhere, so we can enact this legislation. This legislation, so this training will be in universities, so as part of uni degrees, regardless of the industry that you're in and I'm spearheading currently the legal profession because that's just something, that that's where my background is but it's going to be in every single industry that you can imagine.
Speaker 2:But one thing that I've realized is what politicians want to see are statistics. They want to see statistics and they want to see cold, hard evidence that there is workplace bullying and harassment and that it isn't just a small minority that this is happening to. It is a majority. So that's what this campaign is is really doing. I want to get to 2 000 signatures. God willing, I will, you will and actually not god willing, I will, I will. Yeah, because anybody that knows me closely knows that I'm very strong-willed and I'm very laser focused and I know that it only takes one person to call something out. It takes a whole group to get behind it and I feel like if I can be that person that spearheads this, it means that nobody else is going to have to go through it again. Spearheads this it means that nobody else is going to have to go through it again. If we get this education happening, then less and less people are going to put up and shut up, less and less people are going to think that putting up and shutting up is the way to advance in a workplace, because the more you educate people, the better humans they will be. So, yeah, that's exactly what the campaign is about.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'm excited about it, but I'm also conscious of the fact that it is a very sensitive topic to talk about. Some people think, wow, talking about my experience, isn't that going to come with a whole load of legal ramifications? And that's why on the website I have made it so people are anonymous Okay, that's really good. Website I have made it so people are anonymous Okay, that's really good, they can anonymously post.
Speaker 2:I always say do not reveal the identity of the bully. You can say that the firm is happening and you can give the year that it's happened in, but I don't feel like there is utility in naming the bully, because obviously I don't want a defamation suit, but also it's more the business that should know better. The directors of the business should know better, and most of the time bullies aren't leaders. Sometimes it can come from middle management. Sometimes it can even come from juniors on juniors. So this isn't a campaign to target leaders of workplaces and say bosses are crap. It's not that. It's to target any workplace bully and harasser and to say that their time's up and there will be ramifications for their actions yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1:When is this campaign ending? Just so my audience knows when they can sign up until.
Speaker 2:I mean like sign the petition and all that it's going to end when I've hit enough signatures and when I know that there is enough traction, so as soon as this podcast will go live before that, so it's fine.
Speaker 2:I know that it's going to take a bit of time and it's going to take a bit of advocacy, but I can tell you, and I can assure your followers and the people that listen to this podcast, that I'm not going down without a fight and, to be honest, nobody deserves to be damaged at work. Nobody, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. And that's why it's so important that we all realise that this petition is so important, because don't hide behind the fact sorry, I'm gonna get on my soapbox again. That's like don't hide behind the fact that workplace bullying and harassment hasn't happened to you, because it hasn't happened to you yet and the more that you turn a blind eye to it, the more karma will come in your direction. Absolutely so. Sign the petition.
Speaker 1:It's a big story, sign it. I've already signed it, just so you know, I know you have. I saw your name on it.
Speaker 2:You saw Yay.
Speaker 1:Of course, I support everything you do. I think it's fantastic that you're doing this, because you're actually taking action, like you're doing something behind the advocacy. It's not just talking about it now. It's like, no, we are going to do something about this, it's going to make meaningful change. I think it's important.
Speaker 2:Nobody likes someone that doesn't talk. The walk, the walk. Is that how it works? Yeah, walk the walk. I'm very much a believer in. I need to practice what I preach. I tell people that they need to speak up or vote with their feet yeah, and I live by that mentality, and nobody deserves to be bullied at work. And if you are in a situation like that at the moment, please get out, because your mental health will suffer and you don't want to hit rock bottom before you realize that yeah, it's not worth staying somewhere where, literally, your health is being deteriorated every single day by a bully.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's other places you can go and you can work at that are much kinder and it's just like. For me it's just so, I guess, crazy in that like there's so much emphasis on like, if this was happening to children at school right, being bullied, it's just like it would be outrageous and unacceptable and there would be change, right. So why don't we also treat this in the same way? Why, as adults, is it okay to be receptive to such behavior and people, just turning a blind eye like we don't have feelings and emotions and because I'll tell you why yeah it was especially in the legal profession, and we're both lawyers.
Speaker 2:I think that put up and shut up was the only way to advance years and years and years ago. I feel like people that speak up against workplace bullying and harassment are often seen as victims and people that cannot be trusted and people disrupting the status quo. Okay, and nobody wants to disrupt the status quo, because if you're a change maker, that's not going to work out for you if the old guard see it, because the old guard very, very much believe that you need to be resilient and put up and shut up. That's been the way and that's why our profession has been so loath to change the game. We can talk about be well in the law and well being all we want, but unless everyone in our profession has that idea, we're going to still have workplace bullying and harassment in it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, definitely. I've got a few follow-up questions from that. There's like one in terms of we're going down the regulation route, but also there's what you just said around disrupting the status quo, and that's exactly what you're doing and you've experienced, you know, backlash from people and you share about this openly on linked LinkedIn as well, and that's exactly I feel like when I read your posts. Firstly, I can't believe there's people like this that exist in the dinosaur era, where, seriously, you know just the way that they speak to you, but when you receive that type of backlash, how do you deal?
Speaker 2:with that At first, it really used to bother me. Yeah, because I am a bit of a people pleaser Well, I'm a reformed people pleaser but after receiving direct messages like that, I've conditioned myself to not give a fuck. Because, let me tell you, and to anyone listening as well, when people start vocalising their opinions about your life in a negative fashion, it means that they are either threatened by you or they are scared that you are going to do better than them, or you're going to bring about change that they do not want. Because, as humans, we do not like change, we like the status quo, we want to make sure that everything is put in its various box and we don't like disruptors. If you look through history right, there's a chain of disruptors. I can guarantee you all of those people have hit some type of adversity or someone saying to them oh my goodness, why are you doing that? Why is this happening? Why is that happening? Why are you doing this and speaking out of turn and whatever? But last time I checked, you are rarely criticized by people that are doing better than you, and that's just my opinion on it.
Speaker 2:I mean, today I put up a post about how someone reached out to me and said that my bona fide campaign was going to tank, it was doomed. I am a liability to the legal profession. Because of it, my whole career is going to tank. My reputation is going to be in the toilet, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I responded to that person and you know I was respectful. I always am respectful and I always reply to these people yeah, and I pretty much in a nutshell said thanks, but no thanks. Yeah, I know full well, maria, that this isn't career defining for me. This is career limiting for me. I know if I go to any other law firm to work, that it won't be looked at too kindly, that I've called out workplace bullying and harassment. But if a law firm or a legal workplace doesn't want me because of this, I don't want them because it's not in accordance with my values. And what are they?
Speaker 1:hiding as well.
Speaker 2:That's exactly right like if you're that worried about someone calling out bullshit behavior? Yeah, then you are exhibiting the bullshit behavior that they're calling out. And that's why, when people say to me you know it could be career limiting, and this is what this guy did, I said, okay, but is that an excuse for just leaving the status quo? Yeah, exactly, leaving the status quo.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly no because the status quo really isn't working when people are throwing themselves out of windows and having panic attacks and having to spend time lying on a therapist couch. Yeah, they're not doing well, so might as well fix the problem so our profession can thrive, instead of everyone thinking that all lawyers are assholes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly right. In the long term, when people are healthy, workplaces thrive even more Less sick days, less workplace bullying, claims like workplace compensation, those types of claims it's a no-brainer well to me and you and I'm sure my listeners as well but yeah, I feel like when people come at you like that, I feel like they've got something to hide and you've rattled them. You've woken something up in them that they're afraid to let go or for that to be revealed. So you're doing your job. Essentially, you are doing the right.
Speaker 2:When people can't control you. They will talk shit about you Exactly, and that can be anyone. It can be your mum, it can be your dad, it can be a friend, it can be you know, someone at work, whatever. Yeah, because that's just how it is, but everyone's got their own free will and can lead their lives the way that they want to Exactly right and stay true to you. Yeah, because if I had listened to the haters back in August and September that I was getting, I wouldn't have been able to change some people's lives and that would have stopped me from fulfilling my purpose.
Speaker 2:My message to people is stop listening and start doing, because you have to go to bed and lie down on that pillow at night and think you know what I did a good job. And other people aren't going to lie on that pillow at night and think you know what I did a good job. And other people aren't going to lie on that pillow at night and think about you. They're going to be thinking of themselves. Don't be too persuaded by them, trust me. You just need to stand firm, stand your ground and do what is going to make you happy. Don't worry about what other people think of you. Well, said.
Speaker 1:I think that's yeah, that's perfectly said, because, yeah, no one has to live your life. You have to live with yourself and your decisions and the consequences of them as well. Yeah, you do, you, and there's always gonna be someone that's saying something negative and being a hater, but the work that you do outweighs the hate anyway. Like, as you said, if it wasn't for you continuing your work and ignoring the haters, you wouldn't have essentially saved lots of people from doing things that they would regret. And the other follow-up question I had, because we were talking about regulations and change, I'd love to know what are your thoughts on the new psychosocial regulations? Do you think that these will encourage organisations to address bullying and harassment and make meaningful change, or is it just fluff?
Speaker 2:In one word no, yeah, I don't think it will, unless you criminalise this type of behaviour and start putting directors in jail. This is not going to work, especially in a legal workplace where lawyers are trained to strategise themselves out of sticky situations. I feel like they are just fluff. I feel like this positive duty quotation marks is not going to help anyone. Theoretically it might. I'm not saying never, say never. It might help some people, but I don't actually feel like it's going to actually help everyone and every single workplace as I said, legal workplaces we're trained to strategize ourselves out of sticky situations. It's just not going to work. Lawyers might be dictated to by the law in terms of their clients, but in terms of themselves, not so much it's interesting.
Speaker 1:It's interesting to see it play out as well, and I really wanted to see what your yeah view on that is.
Speaker 2:I know it's terribly an unpopular view, because a lot of people have spent a lot of time putting together these guidelines and doing all of that and I commend them for that. It was great work. Yeah, but you need actual, real full-blown penalties. And when I say penalties, imprisonment, before anyone is going to start taking you seriously and people say to you oh, that raises all sorts of problems, like our jails are going to be overcrowded. Well, our jails aren't going to be overcrowded if everyone's doing the right thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, this is probably well slightly off topic, but also in line with what we're talking about didn't they criminalize cyber bullying or something like that with kids?
Speaker 2:I think so I'm not too sure on that. Don't quote me on on that.
Speaker 1:I don't know. Yeah, I'm not an expert, but I just I don't know, because we're talking about criminalising and bullying. I just feel like there was something about yeah.
Speaker 2:I just feel like a lot of people ask me about psychosocial hazards, yeah, and I love how they've characterised what they are. You were brilliant Step forward. Everyone on that list I've been victim to in my career.
Speaker 1:I think I feel like it's a toothless tiger. Yeah, like, my frustration with a lot of organizations is like there's a lot of lip service and a lot of policies.
Speaker 2:Are you okay day?
Speaker 1:cupcakes Are you okay? Day cupcakes Like to look like they're doing the right thing. I'm doing air quotes again, but there really does need to be actual change because, look, we've all been a part of workplaces to some degree where there has been toxic behavior, where we can absolutely see it, and they still put on the RUOK day, they still talk about psychosocial regulations or whatever it may be, and you're just sitting there going, well, no one's actually doing anything about this. That makes meaningful.
Speaker 2:I won't be so eloquent about it as you are, maria. They're putting on the RUAK cupcakes to cover up the bullshit that they do 364 days a year. Ruak day, as I said. Great in theory, but on the Bonafide workplaces website, there is a couple of law firms that have been characterized as bullies on there, and those firms are the ones that put up every iuak day and every international women's day. Yeah, oh wow. We are so employee focused. No, you're not. You're bullshit. 364 days a week, a year. You are freaking terrorists, yeah, in the workplace. So I don't buy it. That's probably a pessimistic view, but for anyone that wants to challenge me on that, I'll show you my dms and then you'll know where I'm coming from I believe you being in these environments in the past myself.
Speaker 1:I really do and, as I said before, that's why I just can't see myself being in these traditional firms. I left very quickly after pretty much the first three years of my career. I just couldn't do that type of environment.
Speaker 2:Don't blame you, you're hell holes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, and I just feel like I would love to see change in my lifetime. I really would, because I still, like there's been slow change, some change. Maybe there's people like you which is amazing speaking about it now, like which we need, but we just need to see actual change and it happens a lot, unfortunately, like the mid to top tier firms, even like small firms as well, like I don't want to always just put the blame on the big firms.
Speaker 2:It happens everywhere. It happens in government, it happens in legal aid, it happens Even legal aid. There you go. Yeah, it happens in big firms, it happens in tech companies, it happens in mid-tier firms. It happens in big firms. It happens in tech companies, it happens in mid-tier firms, it happens in boutique firms, it happens in mining companies. It happens everywhere. It happens why? Because we're humans, yeah, and humans are flawed, yeah, and From dumb shit, exactly right. So what do you do to fix that? You educate them on their behaviour, yeah, and also you have repercussions if they do not follow what you say.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was going to play devil's advocate and say, yeah, what happens if they don't listen to their education, if they don't make a change? But yeah, you follow their authority.
Speaker 2:Well, it's up to workplaces to have actual repercussions for these people if they step out of line.
Speaker 2:Now the problem with that is a lot of companies are hungry for money. Actually, most companies are right. They're businesses. They want to make money. But I feel like if you don't have consequences for rainmakers who terrorise people, you are inadvertently going to starve yourself of good talent. Good talent that is bullied and harassed will leave and you will struggle to find good talent that will stay under your rainmaking bully. You need to either rehabilitate the bully and take measures to rehabilitate the bully, or you need to get the bully out, because you are never going to get people to be productive under the rehabilitate the bully, or you need to get the bully out, because you are never going to get people to be productive under the leadership of the bully.
Speaker 2:I actually wrote a confronting post yesterday about this. I actually feel like before someone becomes a people manager, they need to undergo a psychological assessment and regular therapy to ensure that they actually are a good people manager, because I firmly believe that just because you are a rainmaker does not make you a good people manager. People management is a completely different skill set to being a rainmaker. Being a rainmaker is making deals, schmoozing clients and bringing in money. Right People management you need understanding, you need empathy. You need that part of your personality that encourages you to grow and develop people, and I feel like, especially in the legal field, we think that lawyers are promoted based on their rainmaking ability.
Speaker 2:Right, they bill in, they bill hours. We get promoted. We don't get promoted because we're decent people. We get promoted because we are doing well for our clients and our billable hours. But just because you're a good lawyer does not mean that you're a good people manager, and I obviously I've only worked in law and media, so I can speak to this. But I feel like as a legal workplace, we need to have tougher standards for how we appoint leaders. We need leaders to know how to sniff out bullies, also in their teams. We need to do a lot more and have repercussions and make sure that if leaders are treating people like shit, they either need to be stripped of their titles or not be leaders. It's as simple as that. Agre as that, because at the end of the day, as an organization, you set the culture, and if your culture is shit, then your organization is going to be shit and you're never going to be able to retain talent, because a fish rots from the head and if you have shit leaders, you're going to have a shit workforce.
Speaker 1:It's as simple as that yeah, agree, don't have anything to add to that. Now let's flip it over to more of a career focus. Ask all my guests that come on the show this question. I'd love to hear your thoughts. What does career confidence mean to you and what's one practical tip you can offer the audience to build their confidence in their career?
Speaker 2:being able to be who you are in your job and not care what other people think. That is career confidence. The more you care about what people think and the more you try and people please other people. You will not please yourself and you will not create your dream career if you do that either. So that is my advice, and I hope it resonates with someone because I waited until I was 33 to learn that. Don't wait as long as me.
Speaker 1:I think that will definitely resonate with someone in my audience that may be going through that. So thanks for that. And, steph, what's on for you in the near future? I know you're busy with, obviously, the campaign that you just launched. Yeah, whether if it's personal or business-related, what's on for you in the near future and what are you most excited about right now?
Speaker 2:I've got so much excitement for the future. My husband and I are renovating, obviously, which is a process, yeah, but on the career front, I'm just excited to bring this campaign to life because through my advocacy I've met such amazing people and I feel like they encourage me to think differently and I think, because I have a really great group of people around me advising me on certain things, it's made me bring my career to life, get a good mentor. I should have said that for the other question.
Speaker 1:That's okay, it's not too late.
Speaker 2:And if you don't have one, reach out to me, or Mariam will be your mentor, because I wish I had one as soon as I finished law school in the industry that I could trust, because your mentor will act as your guide throughout your career. A good mentor will never tell you you should be doing this and you should be doing that. They should be guiding you and just being there as a source of support and if you want advice, they'll give it to you, and if you're just looking to vent, they'll listen. So back to your question about what I'm excited about. But I'm interested in bringing this campaign to life. I'm interested in going and doing a lot of speaking engagements and speaking to people. One thing that I love about speaking engagements and I never thought I'd be ever doing this work but the one thing I love and I'm sure everyone in the podcast is thankful that it's coming to an end so they don't have to hear my voice anymore. But I love connecting with people. So when I give a keynote or I'm on a panel or whatever, people come up to me and they say oh, thank you for saying that. I really need to hear that. That's the most rewarding part of the speaking engagement. It's not so much what you say on the stage, but it's the people that come up to you and say you know what, thank you. That's what I wanted. Come up to you and say you know what, thank you, that's what I wanted to hear.
Speaker 2:I spoke at an event at the University of Canberra their law ball last year and I didn't talk about what they thought I'd talk about. I spoke about workplace bullying. It's my special subject, right, if I ever go on, who Wants to Be a Millionaire? It's definitely going to be workplace bullying and harassment. When I say what's your special subject, yeah, it's like my general knowledge question. And he said to me you know, I've gone through the exact same thing and thank you for validating me, because no one in the workplace that I was in actually did.
Speaker 2:And I'm excited about speaking engagements because I love talking about this stuff, not because it's a great sexy topic to talk about. I'm sure there a great sexy topic to talk about. I'm sure there'd be better topics to talk about other than workplace bullying but it's the people you get to connect with and the lives that you get to change being an advocate, and that's what I'm excited about. I think there's so much change that you can make and I'm excited to lead that change because it just means so much to me. It really does and it lights me up in a way that nothing else obviously, apart from my family and my husband, but nothing else actually does.
Speaker 1:I can really see and feel that when you speak, I just, I feel your passion, like it's just. There's no two ways about it.
Speaker 2:you know I think I'm Greek, so we're just normally passionate. Yeah, you add the Greek to the energizer bunny, yes to the workplace bullying advocate and you're like next level, like a triple threat yeah, absolutely, and I love it and I really do appreciate the work you're doing in the industry that I work in.
Speaker 1:You know that means a lot to me.
Speaker 2:I appreciate everything that you bring to the table too, maria, what you do with this podcast and all your coaching and all of that is just so valuable because so many people they struggle through their careers and they need a big sister, so to speak A big sister or a little sister, depending on their ages. You know they need someone that is going to believe in them, because some people don't have that in their personal lives. They need an external force and that's why coaching is so brilliant. I've actually got a coach because it helps you think in a different way and it opens up a stream of possibilities in your mind that you perhaps wouldn't even think about. But because the coach kind of sits with you and thinks about what are your goals, what are you doing there, what's happening here. They kind of challenge you and it might feel really uncomfortable and sometimes my coach it feels fucking uncomfortable. Coaching does not feel good. It's not a comfortable experience.
Speaker 2:I have spent a coaching session, crying my eyes out at a time my coach will attest to this, because that person, like she, asked me I remember, what do you want? Like what do you actually want? And I was like I don't know and it felt really like uncomfortable. But when you feel uncomfortable in a coaching session, that means it's actually really working. Yeah, people, if I can give another bit of advice and I know I've tried to give a few tidbits in this podcast get a coach, because I'm telling you now it will change your life and your career and if you want your career to succeed, you need to make sure that you have people in your life that are going to challenge you. If you are sitting there at base zero and like going with the status quo and like not caring and thinking that you're going to succeed, no, you need people that are going to challenge you, people that are going to say raise you up, lift you up and make you feel like you're a million bucks, because you are, and you need to understand that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that. I think I need to get you as my personal like PR. Do my marketing for me, you got this. Seriously, you're amazing, you got this.
Speaker 2:You're amazing. So happy to be here, so happy to have been on this podcast. Yeah, absolutely, and if anyone is going through workplace bullying and harassment, you're never alone. Reach out to me. I know that you feel like you are the only one suffering from it, but I promise you you're not and you will get through it. But you need to speak up or vote with your feet and don't wait too long, because it might be too late.
Speaker 1:Well said. And where can my audience find you, to connect with you, to reach out to you? Linkedin.
Speaker 2:Linkedin is great, yeah, sign the petition on bonafideworkplacescom and share your story if you've been bullied at work. But one thing that I would say is, even if you have a question on anything that maria or I have today, just send me a DM. I mean, my DMs blow up so you might be waiting a week for a response, but I will always respond, because I always respond to everyone that reaches out to me. If you need anything, please let me know and get yourself a bloody coach.
Speaker 1:I'll put all of those links in the show notes so my audience can get to know you more, connect with you, dm you. And yeah, I just want to say thank you so much, steph, for being on the show and just sharing so openly, without the bullshit, without the fluff, just being you authentic, bringing the passion, bringing the heat. I love it, I really do you gotta bring the passion, bring the heat.
Speaker 2:People. Absolutely. It's been a fun podcast podcast. Nobody likes someone that just speaks in monotone. Nobody likes that. No, everybody wants the person that's going to just be that open book, because it makes you more. This is another piece of advice I could give. The more you're authentic and people think that that is just a wanky tip tiktok term that people use, right yeah, the more you show up as you and not someone that you think others are going to like, the more people gravitate towards you and you don't need to be anyone else. And if a workplace is asking you to be someone that you're not, get the fuck out.
Speaker 1:I feel like we need to end there, because that was powerful and we can't say anything else. That's going to beat that. Thank you so much, steph. No problem, thanks for tuning into the Career Confidence Podcast. Like what you learned today. Why not share this episode with your work, bestie, and leave us a five-star review on? Wherever you listen to your podcasts on? We'd absolutely love to get into more ears and help more women, just like you, build fulfilling and thriving careers. Until next time,
