
Courier Conversations
This Podcast of Courier Conversations will be a conversation of topics with a variety of guests that concern, inspire and inform Christians about current events Worldwide. We hope you'll find our stories informing and encouraging in your daily walk with Christ.
Courier Conversations
The Complex Path to Restoring Fallen Pastors: Accountability, Grace, and Redemption
What happens when a pastor experiences moral failure? Can redemption pave the way for a return to leadership, or is the path to restoration much more complex? Join us as we, along with co-host Travis Kearns, tackle these pressing questions, exploring the delicate balance between accountability and grace within church leadership. Drawing from Jonathan Lehman's insights and our own experiences, we navigate the distinctions between restoring someone to church membership versus a pastoral office. Discover how the biblical qualifications in 1 Timothy guide these challenging decisions, and consider the profound implications of church discipline on personal and professional restoration.
The conversation doesn't end there. We scrutinize the ongoing challenge of upholding moral integrity in ministry, questioning whether certain transgressions, like adultery, should permanently disqualify someone from pastoral leadership. Can a fallen pastor, post-restoration, offer unique empathy to others in similar situations? We also invite South Carolina Baptists to engage with us by sending questions for future episodes, ensuring our content remains relevant and enriching. Stay informed and inspired as we explore these critical topics, and look forward to insightful discussions in our upcoming episodes.
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Welcome to the December episode of Courier Conversations. My name is Jeff Robinson, I am President and Editor-in-Chief of the Baptist Courier, and with me is my co-host, travis Kearns, who is the and, travis, I always just call you a DOM. You're the DOM of the Three Rivers Association. It's good to have you with us today, as always, after missing last month serving his local government by doing jury duty.
Speaker 1:Jury duty, yeah, so we have Walter Johnson in for you and certainly enjoyed that. And today's topic. We're going to talk about what is a bit of a sticky wicket for a lot of people, and you can understand why for a lot of people, and you can understand why. When a pastor fails morally, when a pastor falls, when you a man who preaches the word Sunday in, sunday out, and he has a moral failure, what do we think about that? Do we restore him? When do we restore him? Does it depend on the situation? And how can we, how can pastors guard themselves from this awful reality that brings such aspersion on the gospel and causes unbelievers to become more solidified in their certainty that the church is just full of hypocrites? So we'll talk about that today. We had one of these instances not too long ago a couple months ago.
Speaker 1:that kind of prompted our thinking about this in evangelical circles that a lot of us know about and has been talked about for several weeks now. So that's what prompted us with the idea of the hurricane last month, and so we're a little behind, but it's always a pertinent topic, isn't it, Travis?
Speaker 2:It is, yeah, and it's something that impacts all pastors on a regular basis, anybody in ministry on a regular basis Not that everybody falls, but it's always. I think, if we're all honest with each other, I think it's at the back of our minds because we're all sinners. Paul talks about the struggle with sin in Romans. I'm doing the things I don't want to do. I'm not doing the things I don't want to do. I'm not doing the things I want to do. We constantly struggle with these things until glorification. So sanctification is obviously a process, and it's a process that pastors and ministers go through as well.
Speaker 1:Well, that's right, and Travis and I both have been pastors for a number of years before God called us to our current roles, and so this is something that is very personal to both of us. We've wrestled with it. I know that being above reproach 1 Timothy 3, 1 to 7, titus 1, certainly are the vanguard when it comes to qualifications for eldership or pastorship, a pastoral office, and so that's something that always concerned me. I'm sure it did you, something we gave a lot of thought to. So what? I guess the first question we want to kind of think about is can a pastor be restored to ministry, and does it depend on the nature of the sin involved or what? I think there's a number of factors you have to consider here, consider here and I think I want to talk about that, maybe.
Speaker 1:First, a close mutual friend of ours, jonathan Lehman, one of the leading thinkers, in my opinion, in evangelicalism about a whole host of local church issues, in 2018 wrote an article for the Washington Post, and he is, of course, in DC with Mark Dever and Don Mark's ministry for many, many years. But it was why Repentant Past be forgiven but not restored to the pulpit, and I don't remember the exact occasion, but I remember this article struck me as being incredibly helpful and in here he argues that there's really two different issues when a pastor fails there's, can he be restored as a pastor and can he be restored as a Christian, as a church member? Because the pastor really holds two offices he holds the office of pastor, elder and also as a church member. And he argues those are two different things and often, even when he can't be restored as pastor, he should be restored if he's repentant to church membership. What do you think about that argument?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So the first thing I think we need to think about is kind of in the background of all this, and that is I think, especially as evangelicals we are, and maybe even more especially as Southern Baptists, we are really good at throwing rocks at people who sin and we are really bad at restoration. And I think that's true across the board with humanity, because we know you know you watch the news negative sells, positive doesn't sell, negative sells. And I think that holds true within the church as well. Is you just see, way too often we are really good at casting stones and we are really bad at restoration. I think we need to get a lot better at restoration and try to restore as much as we possibly can. I heard Tom Askell just a few days ago.
Speaker 2:The goal of church discipline is always, always restoration. It is not removal from membership or removal from the church, it's always restoration. So with that in mind, I think that's also important to think about when somebody in ministry falls. I'm probably a little bit more forgiving in this area than Jonathan is. Jonathan and I are good friends. We served together on SBC committees but I think if a person can be restored to church membership, then a person can also be restored to ministry leadership.
Speaker 2:Is it a higher office? Is pastoral ministry or ministry leadership a higher office than church membership? Yes, because it's a specific office that we see in 1 Timothy 3.1 that's discussed. It's an office, a title and a function and, since we're on the topic, given to a biological male only, as 1 Timothy 3.1 says. But it is an office that somebody should aspire to. And then you get this list of things in 1 Timothy 3, 2-7, above reproach, husband of one wife, temperance, sensible, on and on. And then Paul kind of sums it up in verse 7, he must have a good reputation with those outside the church. So you get inside the church first and then you get outside the church.
Speaker 2:So I would argue, yes, somebody should be restored to church membership. However, I would also say, unless it's a sin that's been committed, that the person says he's repentant but then obviously shows obvious unrepentance because of continuing occurrence of that sin, then yeah, we ought to try to restore him to ministry as much as we possibly can. Is it difficult? Does it take time? Yes, is there a certain amount of time? No, is it? You know how much time then would it take to restore somebody? It's not a week but it's not 10 years. I think it's individual, on a case-by-case basis. So yeah, I would want to as much as we can restore people to ministry, because it shows that one nobody's perfect. I think it sets a great example to show that if a pastor who has fallen can be restored, then anybody can be.
Speaker 2:I think it gives real hope to people who are dealing with things. I think you see this with the apostles. You know Peter denies Christ three times very publicly. He's a very public leader early in the faith and he's restored and made one of the greatest church leaders we've ever seen. Paul again, paul mentions this in Romans. He fails continually but he's always pushing forward. Now, is it a public failure? We don't know. He just says I'm doing the things I don't want to do. We don't know what those things are, but I think ultimately the answer is yes. Restore them to church membership first. Get that fallen pastor or minister in some type of mentoring relationship, accountability relationship with more than one other person, more than one other person in ministry and then work to restore him to gospel ministry. If you see true repentance. I think that's the major key is looking for repentance.
Speaker 1:Well, I think you raise an important point here is that we often shoot our wounded within evangelical and Southern Baptist churches. Let's face it, we often shoot our wounded. Now there are denominations within evangelicalism that are really quick to restore. You know, I've seen adulterers restored after two to three months because they were famous at large televangelist ministries. And you've got to figure you don't know what's behind that, but you almost know what's behind that. And I think another thing and you said this too is in parallel to Matthew 18, I think, having been participated in several church discipline cases as a pastor over the years, it is a case-by-case basis. There's almost not really a one-size-fits-all for church discipline or even disqualification from ministry.
Speaker 1:I don't think except and you and I talked about this before the show I do agree with Jonathan I do think there are sins that are so flagrant and so public that they cause that man to lose trust now and forever on the issue of adultery, lose trust now and forever. On the issue of adultery, the case recently which really gave us the idea for this program, steve Lawson Steve has not spoken. We don't know exactly what it was. We know it was of a nature of being with another woman, involving another woman, and to me that does you know? James 3.1 says not everyone should be teachers, brothers, so be held to a higher standard, higher account, and I think in that case we're held to a higher account and we have lost our voice with insiders and outsiders to the degree that we just no one's going to trust us anymore, even if we repent, restored as church members. I don't think we'd be restored to ministry and of course I think there are probably other sins that fall into that category. But, like you said, I think that also depends on did they come forward and repent of it? Were they just caught, kind of a Bill Clinton, kind of you know, I'm sorry, I got caught kind of attitude, or you know? Or did they come forward and repent it, you know, in a Psalm 51 sort of way, like King David was? Of course King David wasn't a pastor, so it's not a real good parallel I don't think that some people always use.
Speaker 1:So I do think that in the case of adultery and there are other cases we had a case in the SBC a couple of years ago Our president was caught plagiarizing sermons, 130-some sermons or some crazy thing like that. Does that disqualify a man forever? Does he lose what's called plagiarizing sermons 130-some sermons or some crazy thing like that? Does that disqualify a man forever? Does he lost his voice and ability to be trusted? I mean, I think possibly that could be another one, but again, I think it's a case-by-case basis. I mean, if he plagiarized one of John Piper's sermons and admits it, I know of a man who did something like that and I think that's different than 132, and you got called and you even made excuses once you got called.
Speaker 1:So I don't know. I mean that would be for me. The one that's automatic for me is adultery You've just done, and I mean that after you become a Christian. I think it's different if you weren't a Christian before all that, because Paul was evidently murdering Christians before he became an apostle. But I'm talking about for our purposes here. You're in ministry, you've been in ministry for a while and you do this. So what do you think about that? Again, we had a robust discussion during lunch today about that. Do you think there are I agree with Lehman here that there are times when you just can't go back in ministry?
Speaker 2:Yes. So my pushback would be what we talked about at lunch, which? So my pushback would be what we talked about at lunch, which is in 1 Timothy 3, you don't see a list of greater to lesser or lesser to greater. You just see a list. So husband of one wife is obviously in 1 Timothy 3 too. Paul lists it right there.
Speaker 2:Adultery could also be counted as not being above reproach. But there are a number of things that could be counted as not being above reproach, but there are a number of things that could be counted as not being above reproach. In fact, if anything being above reproach might be outside of being able to teach, the kind of umbrella that covers all this. But if the husband of one wife covers adultery and I think it does then what if he's not able to teach? I mean, that's something that's explicitly listed. What if he's just a bad teacher? How do you define bad? You know, I might like somebody you don't, or vice versa, what if they don't want to host people in their homes? You know, does that mean he's not hospitable? You know what if he's not peaceable? He's not addicted to wine, but he's just not a fun, peaceable person to be around. So my pushback is I don't see in this listing in 1 Timothy 3, 2-7, one thing that rises above another.
Speaker 2:I just want to be careful that we're doing what the text says rather than lifting one out. That's very specific. Because again, what about? Like verse seven, he must have a good reputation with those outside the church. It's going to be really hard for a pastor who proclaims the gospel to have a good reputation with unbelievers, because unbelievers will be resistant to the gospel. Now, if Paul here is talking about those outside the specific local church, I don't think he is. I think he's talking about unbelievers. Unbelievers are never going to have good thoughts all the time, every day, everywhere, about pastors, because we're proclaiming the gospel, calling them out for their sin and unbelief. But again, my point here is simply, I want to make sure we're sticking to the text and not pulling one out over another.
Speaker 2:Because if husband of one wife permanently disqualifies a man from ministry, then a lack of ability to teach would also then permanently disqualify. The pushback on that might be. Well, we can train somebody on how to teach and then that might restore him. We can also train somebody on how to teach and then that might restore them. We can also train somebody to not be an adulterer. Put somebody around them all the time. My former president of North American Mission Board, kevin Ezell, says all the time it's been scientifically proven, fact and shown to be the case that if you're never alone with a woman to whom you're not married or biologically related affairs won't happen.
Speaker 1:I know, moeller, you mentioned has said that as well at Southern Recently.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So my concern is that if we put enough people around him or put enough checks in that man's life who has fallen into sin with another woman, then why does that necessarily disqualify him, whereas a lack of ability to teach or not being hospitable or whatever else things that can be taught and should also be gifts of the Spirit for ministry why would that rise above everything else? And what I just don't want to do is make sure that we're not reading our culture too much into what's going on here, because I just see a list of things, not a greater to lesser, lesser to greater.
Speaker 1:Right, right. Well, as we said, I think we have a slight disagreement in this, because I think that he must be well thought of by outsiders.
Speaker 1:in verse 7, there I think that if an outsider, an unbeliever, wants to talk to a pastor and they know that Pastor Jim has been faithful to his wife always- and they know Pastor Steve has been unfaithful to his wife, or Pastor Joe or whatever his name is, they're going to want to talk to Pastor Jim because they can trust him, and they're going to automatically say well, pastor Joe cheated on his wife, I don't trust him.
Speaker 2:Sure.
Speaker 1:I don't like him. He's the reason why I don't want to come to First Baptist of whatever South Carolina.
Speaker 2:Possum Holler Alabama.
Speaker 1:Because he's been unfaithful. He's a hypocrite, just like the rest of you. So I think that to me, there are theological issues in the Bible and there's wisdom issues that arise out of the text, and this is a wisdom issue that, for me, arises out of the text of Scripture being faithful to your wife, lots of other things about what regular Christians are supposed to be, not just pastors, and so I think it's unwise to put a man who's committed adultery back into the ministry because I don't think he's going to be trusted. I think you can make a case. His house is not in order, in a sense because the covenant of marriage has been broken. Of course, it depends on how you define marriage. The Bible defines marriage, but how you define. Has he been in covenant with this woman whom he's now been with, slept with, and I don't know? That's beyond the purview of our podcast. Maybe we'll talk about that more in the future.
Speaker 2:So I think the flip side to that coin, though, is also showing wisdom in that if Jim in the community wants to come and meet with a pastor and he meets with a pastor who has committed adultery, however many years ago it was, and he's been restored let's say Jim wants to come and talk about adultery, he's committed and he's worried that he might not be able to be restored either to church membership or to even become a believer then that pastor who has been through it and who has been restored, who has been shown grace and forgiveness and has repented it's obvious in his life that he's repented.
Speaker 2:He's sorrowful, his wife has forgiven him, the church, on and on it goes. This is honest-to-good repentance, forgiveness and restoration that guy from the community might have a real belief that, hey, if Pastor Jim or whoever Pastor Joe can be forgiven, I can too. Yeah, I think we see that even with the disciples at the Great Commission. Jesus tells them to go meet him at a mountain. They go and they get there, and the text Matthew says some were doubting, but Jesus even used that doubt, he used that sin and sent them out to move along.
Speaker 1:Well, that's you know, that's what I'm going to move along here. We're going to agree to disagree slightly on that, but I think we do agree and I think the wisdom Scripture gives us it's a case-by-case basis. I do think that a lot of Christians see this as, or sometimes will see it as, a very narrow. You know, it's not guardrails, it's a straitjacket.
Speaker 2:I don't think it's a straitjacket would say this that if anything in this list in 1 Timothy 3, 1 to 7, is broken by somebody in pastoral ministry or ministry in general, then that person needs to be removed from ministry and repentance has to be sought. There has to be accountability put in that person's life, 1,000%, no question about it. It has to be done immediately. The question is, what about restoration at the end? But if something in 1 Timothy 3, 1 to 7 is broken, that person must absolutely be removed. No questions asked.
Speaker 1:Well, I like the illustration Jonathan used. I think it works. No illustration is perfect, of course, but Richard Nixon, gerald Ford pardoned President Nixon for his sins, committed all his obvious sins, and he was restored as an American citizen, but not as president. So I think that's how I would feel about an adulterer, and some of these were in flagrant violation, an ongoing underpinning violation. Like you said, let's transition. This is a good talk. We're getting close to the end here. The Billy Graham rule I've actually had a pastor tell me I think that's stupid, I think that's legalism, it's adding to the Bible. But for me, again, ethel's under a wisdom issue. Nowhere in the Bible does it say pastor, don't be alone to the woman. But I do think it's wise. As Kevin Ezell and Zell Moeller said a few weeks back in chapel at Southern Seminary, if you are never alone to the woman who's not your wife or your mother, or your Aunt Bea or someone who's close to you Ken, do you like that?
Speaker 2:your daughter, whatever, then you will never— Nice Andy Griffith reference there.
Speaker 1:Exactly. I had to slip that in. We'll get a Seinfeld reference in one of these days. We both like that. But you will never risk this kind of failure and bringing such aspersion on the gospel and the church of Jesus Christ. And so I think for me, that's always been my policy. I don't counsel a woman alone who's not my you know my wife or another elder or someone else there. Uh, I don't, uh I'm not going to be alone in a room with a woman. There's no windows or no one can see in and watch what I'm doing. And and I know the feminists will say well, you know, that's just saying the woman's nothing but a predator. No, that's saying that we're both sinners and I think we should abstain from all appearances of evil, and that you know there's talk can go out. I mean, nothing may happen, it probably won't happen, but still you don't give place to the devil in a situation like that, if you follow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think the Billy Graham rule is a recognition of an implication from Genesis 3 and Romans 1. I think it's just that simple. I think it's also part of Romans 3.23,. You know, all have sinned, all do sin, all will continue to sin. I think it's Paul in Romans 7, I'm doing the things I don't want to do, not doing the things I want to do. I think it's just as you said. It's recognizing that we're all sinners and that sinners lose their minds and have lost their minds and we will always be sinners, if we're saved or not. We'll always struggle with it. Yep.
Speaker 1:Well, if you know someone out there, you know a pastor who's fallen and Steve Lawson. Steve was one of my favorite preachers. I love to hear Steve preach and you know we can debate what that means for his past body of work. There's a debate out there right now. That's beyond. Maybe that's another episode sometime. But my encouragement would be to pray for these men, pray for their wives, pray for their churches, pray for their children, because this is hard on all of them, and not just shoot or wounded. As you said earlier, we started this conversation. I think that we need to remember that and pray for him. And we know others who this has happened to, and I think we need to pray for them and not just say, well, we're better than them, because you know, scripture says be ready to stand lest you fall. And there's plenty of warnings in scripture against being self-righteous about this and saying, well, this could never happen to me. I think the better attitudes, the old cliche there but for the grace of God, go.
Speaker 2:I because that's true of all of us as sinners.
Speaker 2:I think it's also healthy to let listeners know that if you are listening and you are a pastor or minister who's fallen, or you're a current pastor or minister and you're concerned about it, contact your local association. If you're in Baptist life, contact whoever your local leader might be in another denomination of life. North American Mission Board has a pastoral counseling hotline that you can get on their website at namnet. It's totally confidential. It's run by if I remember correctly, I think it's run by Focus on the Family. It's a phenomenal resource. Most state conventions have that as well in Baptist life. So call somebody, call another friend who's a pastor, and get accountability in your life. There's nothing better to fix the problem than sunlight. So disinfect it with sunlight, get other people around it, pray for yourself, pray for others that it doesn't happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a really good word. I appreciate that and it's a good place to stop. There's a lot more that could be said about this, but we are out of time. We appreciate you listening. Be sure to follow us on all the social platforms. We're on all those Facebook, externally known as Twitter, instagram. Follow us, give us a five-star review.
Speaker 1:Remember, we're also a publishing company. We have, through our new line, 1821, three new books out. We'll have in the new year we're excited 2025, have new books coming out all year about 12 to 15 new books, sort of kind of a flood of books coming from resources, local church and our Palmetto side as well, our self-publishing side. So don't miss that. We have a website devoted to that. It's courierpublishingcom, our website, which is updated daily, every day, with news and features from across South Carolina and beyond baptistcouriercom. We're updating that three times a day, at least five days a week, so don't miss that. There's a lot of good stuff on there. They'll never make it into the magazine which comes out every month, and hopefully you're reading that, but catch us on the web. Well, we'll continue next month.
Speaker 1:Also in January, this exciting announcement we will be going twice a month Career Conversations. We've heard your response. We're very encouraged by your listener response, and so we think it's time to do this more than once a month. So we'll be coming to you in the middle of the month, probably the 15th, and then the last day of the month on which this will always be published. So thank you for listening. If you have questions out there, feel free. Questions we might be able to answer here or do an episode on, let us know. You can email me. It's jrobinson at baptistcouriercom. Just send those questions and we'll do our best to get you an answer right here at Career Conversations. So thanks for listening and I look forward to seeing you in the end of December and in January.
Speaker 3:We're glad you joined us for Courier Conversations, where we are informing and inspiring South Carolina Baptists and beyond. For more information about these topics and more, subscribe to our e-edition or go to our website at baptistcouriercom. The Courier is located in Greenville, south Carolina. As a multimedia ministry partner of the South Carolina Baptist Convention. To comment about today's podcast, email us at conversations at baptistcouriercom. This podcast, produced by Bob Sloan Audio Productions,