Courier Conversations
This Podcast of Courier Conversations will be a conversation of topics with a variety of guests that concern, inspire and inform Christians about current events Worldwide. We hope you'll find our stories informing and encouraging in your daily walk with Christ.
Courier Conversations
Unpacking Systematic Theology/Why Theology Matters (Part Two)
Tired of hearing that theology is only for scholars or that doctrine divides people? This illuminating conversation with Dr. Walter Johnson, retired dean of Christian Studies at North Greenville University, makes a compelling case for why theological understanding matters deeply for every believer.
Dr. Johnson brilliantly distinguishes between merely knowing about God and truly knowing Him, explaining that while "you can know a lot about God without knowing him, I don't think you can know him very well without knowing a lot about him." This insight forms the foundation for a discussion about how theological understanding transforms our relationship with God and shapes faithful Christian living.
The hosts tackle practical challenges of teaching theology in local churches, acknowledging that many believers find the subject intimidating. Rather than announcing a "systematic theology" series that might draw only the pastor's spouse, they suggest creative approaches: teaching through a church's doctrinal statement, comparing Christianity with other religions, or working through theologically-rich books of the Bible. The goal isn't academic knowledge but spiritual transformation.
Perhaps most compelling is the protective function of sound doctrine. Just as Secret Service agents study genuine currency so thoroughly they immediately recognize counterfeits, Christians grounded in biblical truth can readily identify false teaching. As Hosea warned, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge"—a sobering reminder of what's at stake when believers neglect theological understanding.
The conversation concludes with each participant sharing books that sparked their theological journeys—from Packer's "Knowing God" to Calvin's "Institutes"—demonstrating how theological reading can transform not just understanding but devotion to God. These personal testimonies reinforce that theology isn't merely academic but deeply practical and spiritually enriching.
Want to deepen your own theological understanding? Subscribe to Courier Conversations on your favorite podcast platform, visit baptistcourier.com for daily content, and consider sharing this episode with someone who might benefit from seeing theology in a new light.
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Welcome to another episode of Courier Conversations. I'm Jeff Robinson, your host president and editor-in-chief of the Baptist Courier and Related Ministries, and with me is my co-host, as always, travis Kearns, who is the. I always want to call you the D-O-M, but you are the mission strategist for the.
Speaker 1:Three Rivers Baptist Association. We'll get to that calling later maybe. And we're privileged to have Dr Walter Johnson, who's retired dean of the Christian Studies Department at North Greenville University and 32 years professor of theology and church history and everything else you can imagine within Christian studies. So welcome again to Career Conversations. And we're talking about theology, so don't leave us. We bemoaned in the first episode how people don't like studying theology and I read a quote from a pastor who said I don't do theology, I don't do doctrine, because it divides. But doctrine does divide. I'll start here and we're going to get a little deeper than last time. Why should we do theology? Should we do theology? We didn't answer that question. Should we be teaching our people in the local church theology?
Speaker 3:Well, I would say, first of all, it's the nature of human beings, for one thing God has created us to be rational people who think consistently and coherently. Be rational people who think consistently and coherently. You know, if I were to walk in your office today and seen four words written on the board, just the first thing I would have been trying to do is make sense of those. How do they relate to each other? And that's because we think in rational, coherent terms.
Speaker 3:Ideally, I won't say everybody's really good at that, but it does help us to think consistently and coherently. I mean, I think that's one thing. It also leads us to a better understanding of what the Bible is actually saying. I mean, I've likened it before to, for instance, a person that knows a little bit about the interstate system of the United States, you know. I mean they may know that the even numbers go east and west and the odd numbers go north and south, and they may know the numbers of them. But if they know how to use the interstates and how they connect and how do you get from Jacksonville, you know, to Detroit, that's a different issue.
Speaker 3:How do these connect to each other? And so when we see how the various teachings of the scripture relate to each other, it strengthens our understanding. To have a knowledge of how to use the interstate system is different than knowing that the interstate system is there. The interconnectedness adds a depth of understanding and then that's going to result in practical living. I mean people live out what they believe. The more you understand your beliefs, the more consistently you can actually live them out, and so I think it's absolutely vital in the church for us to be doing that.
Speaker 1:As a man thinks, so he is right.
Speaker 4:Yes, I think you know. Know fundamentally here we're commanded by the scriptures to think theologically, to think rationally about our faith. Romans 12, 1 and 2 therefore urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. So just stopping for a second with verse 1, southern Baptists especially are really good at spiritual service of worship, in that we're good at doing disaster relief, or we're good at putting a roof on a house, or we're good at serving casseroles on Wednesday night, we're good at giving a check. But if you just do a little bit of word substitution here, I urge you, brothers, by the mercy of God, to present your bodies, so substitute bodies for a part of of God, to present your bodies, so substitute bodies for a part of your body, to present your brain a living and holy sacrifice acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship.
Speaker 4:I would always challenge students don't just sing a song on Sunday morning, don't sing, read the words, think about what the words are saying. And then verse 2, do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. And then verse 2, but that's a straightforward scriptural command. We are to think in these ways to, as Paul says, prove what the will of God is. How do we know goodness? It's God's will. How do we know what's acceptable? It's God's will. How do we know what is perfect? It's God's will. How do we do these things? By reading the scriptures, by having your minds transformed. That's thinking God's thoughts again after him.
Speaker 1:Well, mark Knoll famously wrote I believe it was in 1995, a book called the Scandal of the Evangelical Mind, and he kind of famously said the scandal of the evangelical mind is there's not much of an evangelical mind. And so, travis, let's say I'm a North Greenville graduate and I'm going to be a pastor and I take Third Baptist Church of Greer in the Three Years Association and I come to you and say, dr Kearns, I want to teach doctrine here. Where should I start? What advice would you have for me? I want these people to know and love these, cherish these doctrines that I've learned about, been learning about for the last few years.
Speaker 4:The first thing I would say is good luck having more than you and your wife on your first Wednesday night or Sunday night.
Speaker 4:I learned very quickly when I was pastoring in Louisville that if I wanted to teach doctrine, I couldn't announce it as such. I can't say, hey, we're doing a Sunday night series or a Wednesday night series on systematic theology. People just wouldn't show up. Sometimes I'd be the only one because Stacy, my wife, would get bored of it. So what I did, just because of my particular avenue of training, is I would say, hey, let's do a six-week series on Islam.
Speaker 4:Let's study what Muslims believe, and we can, without telling them I can, do a compare and contrast. Here's what Muslims believe about God. Okay, now church. What do we believe about God? What do they believe about Christ? On and on it goes. Or just teach through the book of Romans, teach through the book of John on a Sunday night or Wednesday night. You're going to get into, just between those two books, every theological topic there is. So yeah, my first advice is, if you announce it as a theology or doctrine series, good luck having any more than you and your wife Find a way to do it. That's almost bait and switch.
Speaker 3:Well, I think a way to do it is to and I did it in my church is. I just said y'all are aware of our church doctrinal statement. It's the Baptist faith and message and we're going to teach through it. Now we all know that the Baptist faith and message is a consensus piece of theology. You know, everything that it says on eschatology is in one small paragraph and I've got 30 books on eschatology is in one small paragraph and I've got 30 books on eschatology. You can say a whole lot more, but it allowed me to expound.
Speaker 3:I basically taught a mini systematic theology while we were just doing quote unquote, the Baptist faith and message, which was their own doctrinal statement, and they didn't know that they had had a and they didn't know that they had had a mini course on theology. But you know, I do think they need to see again the importance of it and I think we can start by telling them you know it helps us make sure we're not unbalanced in our theology. I mean we can. You've got the balance between the wrath of God and the love of God. You know Well, some people just are so emphatic and put such an emphasis on the love of God. You know, the wrath of God just sounds completely out of place, and in some people the wrath of God is so dominant it's like you wonder if there's any hope for any of us.
Speaker 3:You know, and so it helps us to be balanced in our theology. You know and Travis has certainly noted, particularly in reference to Mormonism, but it's with every group it's systematic theology is what best helps us to distinguish ourselves from any other group and it helps us to even distinguish ourselves from other believers. I mean our Presbyterian friends and we're Baptist here and we have a lot in agreement with them. But systematic theology is going to help us to understand those lesser places where we disagree. So you know, the more we know, systematic theology helps us. Systematic theology helps us to know the truth better.
Speaker 3:The more you know God I would say it this way the more, because theology doesn't teach you God, it teaches you about God. You know there's a world of difference in knowing about God and knowing God. I've met a lot of people that gave an awful lot of indication that they knew about God, but they didn't give me an indication that they actually knew him. So you can know a lot about God without knowing him, but I don't think you can know him very well without knowing a lot about it. I can love my wife a whole lot more. The more I know about her, the more I know about God and the truth and who I am and what he did for me in Christ, and the more I know that, the more I can appreciate it and the more I can love him. And so it's as theology always does it translates into practice, and I think our people just need to understand that.
Speaker 4:There's a great real-world analogy for something you mentioned, and that's knowing the truth, and just knowing enough of the truth will separate you necessarily from those who don't. When US Secret Service agents who work in the counterfeit division for the US Treasury Department look for or study counterfeiting, they never study a counterfeit bill, they study the real thing. They never see a single counterfeit bill. They study the real thing enough so that they know beyond a shadow of any doubt, the moment they see something fake, that it's fake. So I would say to that new pastor, coming out of whatever school he's graduated from teach your people to know the truth enough so as soon as they see something fake or wrong, they know it and they have no question about it.
Speaker 1:Now, sir, the Jehovah's Witness is at your door on Saturday morning peddling that literature. You know that what he or she is saying about the kingdom is not what the Bible is saying about the kingdom, right? So we love theology and to us it's like catnip, it's like a sumptuous meal to us. We love it, we read it, we teach it, we write about it, we spend giving our adult lives to it because God's called us to it. But I'll have to admit to people in the pew it can be, I think, intimidating. Anthropology and theology, all the categories, pneumatology and hermetology, and you've got all these ologies. Where do you start? So how do you convince people that theology is what they need without telling them theology is what they need?
Speaker 4:I tend to, anytime I answer a question, go to the text first. Jude 3 comes to mind, so beloved. While I was making every effort to write to you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you, appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. What is that faith? Handed down to the saints and, through the years, to us? So it is in the same way that we talked about Romans 12,.
Speaker 4:Jude 3 is a direct scriptural command for us to not only know the faith but to be able to contend for it. So is it intimidating? Sure it is. I mean, you pick up a Grudem systematic theology. One of our pastors, chad Riggenmaker Dr Johnson's pastor, in fact, at First Baptist Berea just a few weeks ago, was preaching on systematic theology and he showed Millard Erickson's Christian theology book and showed how thick it is and said now I know all of you here in the crowd want to come by and get this. Today Everybody kind of chuckled. You look at Grudem's it's even larger. You think there's no way that a normal person is going to read the yellow pages full of systematic theology. But that's the pastor's job is to take this information, boil it down enough so that the average layperson can get it and see why it's important.
Speaker 3:And what's great is when you do just exactly what you've said, travis, because the pastor has to, in a sense, do like the mother bird does, and that's chew it up for the people and then feed it to them, and you know, and and. But what's really exciting is when you you do that for a while and then you start seeing people grow and then they come and say, is there anything else I can read on this? And you really see them, uh, learn to buy in what you're trying into, what you're trying to do, and and uh, then you're starting to see some people that are going to develop into very strong believers. But I think another way again to get people to see the significance of the theology we were sort of talking about this before we started the podcast, and that's sort of present the people with questions and say, if somebody asked you this, what would you say If a Jehovah's witness comes to your door and they start telling you we have a very, very, very high view of Jesus?
Speaker 3:And they do. They have a very high view of Jesus, but they don't have the biblical high view. They believe Jesus created all things, you know I mean that's you know but they don't have the highest view. So when a person is presented with those false views, asking somebody, what would you actually, how would you respond? And it draws them in to seeing the significance of it. And so, as I said, but when you start seeing that happen with somebody your church members and even your students you know, I saw that through the years people that still left, not sure somehow what systematic theology was, and others that just said the lights came on in that class Then you start seeing these people got a hold of it. It's like saying tell me what I did, that did that, and I don't want to keep doing that because I don't know what it was, but it should depend on the Lord.
Speaker 4:Yeah, the other frightening part is the flip side of the coin, which is not knowing any theology will get you sucked into the Jehovah's Witness argument. You'll read Awake Magazine or the Watchtower and get sucked in. You'll have two 19-year-olds in white shirts, dark ties and big name badges that say Elder Smith and Elder Young. You'll be at the Mormon meeting house before you know it, getting baptized into the LDS church. Hosea talks about this. Hosea, chapter four, verse six my people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you've rejected knowledge, I'll also reject you from being my priest, since you've forgotten the law of your God. I'll forget your children. That's pretty frightening stuff Not knowing what the Bible teaches and not understanding it. So, dr J, you're right People can know about God, but they might not know him.
Speaker 4:That's right, everybody, romans says. Romans 1 says everybody knows about God. Creation screams about God. Romans 1 also says not everybody knows God. So there's a significant difference in between those two things.
Speaker 3:But I think the flip side, just the frightening aspect of getting sucked into something you don't realize you're getting sucked into- and I think your Jehovah's Witness churches, or whatever they call them, that they're going to say we're populated by former Baptists, you know, and that's an indication we have not done a good job. But I think part of the issue is too, you know and I had a person tell me this one time. They said I have to think on my job all week long. The last thing I want to do is come to church and think, and the only thing I know to do is say well, I'm sorry you feel that way, because the Bible is something we have to think about. And I think a lot of people believe that God sort of gave us the Bible to inform us, to keep us where we don't have to think, rather than saying no, all he did is gave us the Bible to use as the platform from which to do our thinking. And that's two very different things.
Speaker 4:Yeah, jp Moreland says I think in the Kingdom Triangle that people have confused childlike faith with childlike thinking and that's a major point of confusion in the church.
Speaker 1:One is vital Doctrine is vital for Christian living. I think and I think most people miss that point I've seen my own life over the last 30 years as I've dug deep into theology. I've seen my own life transformed. Of course, in Titus 1, you must teach what is accorded sound doctrine. And then Peter, in 1 Peter 4, the early part of that, says best for you, teach what accords the sound doctrine. And then he says older men are to be sober-minded, dignified, self-controlled, sound in faith and love and steadfastness. Older women and he goes on like that. You would expect him to say but it's for you to teach what according to the sound doctrine, make sure they know about justification by faith make sure they know about the inerrancy of the scripture.
Speaker 1:Make sure they know about election and freedom. No, no, no. He goes to living. So sound thinking leads to sound living.
Speaker 3:John does the same thing. Older men, younger men, older women, younger women, women, then little ones. Well, most of Paul's epistles is certainly true in Romans and in Ephesians and in Colossians. The first part of those, much more in Romans, is doctrine. You know, doctrine. Doctrine In the last three or four chapters in Romans it's how should we then live in light of this doctrine? I've just, and then in 9 Ephesians and Colossians it's divided by half and half. He just does very sound theology and then basically asks okay, how should we then live? But how we're going to live is going to be grounded in what we believe we're going to live out what we believe, if we're being consistent.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Okay. We've got just a little bit of time here so I want to do this. What books? And I'm going to start this. What books? Just kind of lit the flame, lit the fuse for you and got you. Because, you know, none of us came out of the womb wanting to study theology. We all had a starting point. I know I was in my 20s, mid-20s when this happened to me and the book that started for me was JI Packer's Knowing God, and he speaks of knowing about God, but knowing God, In fact I took my staff here at the Courier through Knowing God. It's a tremendous book and I got to know this sovereign God who's holy and righteous, and just Probably that book and RC Stroll's the Holiness of God, those two books, I read them about the same time and I've literally never been the same since. So those are a couple for me. What about you, you two?
Speaker 3:It's a tough one to call because I have to go way back and I have to say I'm very thankful because I was kidding a while ago. I am a couple of years older than you guys and, to be honest with you, I was a philosophy major in college and in those days there just weren't hardly any Christians doing philosophy. And the same thing we certainly were doing theology, but you just didn't have the plethora of books that are out there, you know, on theology. And so some of the books really Horatius Bonar's book on, I think, the biblical view of holiness, or whatever else, and even though it's a book on sanctification, it's theological all the way through.
Speaker 3:John Stott's, the Cross of Christ, my goodness. And you know, to help people see, because most people a place I also help people to understand the importance of theology would say let's talk about salvation. What's the difference in salvation and justification? What's the difference in justification and regeneration? You know, and the same thing? We think no, they're not the same thing. And so those books really helped me early on. But boy Sproul and Packer too are some of them.
Speaker 3:If you read those and something doesn't happen inside, you're dead. Yeah, I've never been the same.
Speaker 4:never, I think. Probably three for me. One of these I read in a class taught by none other than Dr Walter Johnson, and that is a book called Hitler's Cross by Erwin Lutzer where he argues that the German church was primed for Hitler to take over as a nationalist because of their lack of theological knowledge.
Speaker 4:So that was one. Probably the one that I read every year that really gets me is Sinclair Ferguson's book the Holy Spirit, which is the most theologically not theologically dense but, I would argue most theologically accurate and devotionally moving, systematic I've ever read. And then one I'll probably get you know, tarred and feathered for even bringing this one up, but a little two-volume set from the about four or five hundred years ago in a galaxy far, far away, by a little guy named John Calvin called the.
Speaker 4:Institutes of the Christian Religion. Yeah, me too that I'm not arguing for a particular point of view here. I'm simply saying that it's biblically faithful and it's devotionally rich. And starting with the Holy Spirit, it doesn't get any better. He starts with what is basically? What is pneumatology? Why does the Spirit exist? How can we know God? It's just phenomenal. Every page just is rich in every doctrine you can possibly imagine.
Speaker 1:The single most powerful thing I've ever read. On prayer, on prayer an exposition of the doctrine of prayer is Calvin's Institutes book three. I read it every year. And also, since I love theology, pilgrim's Progress has helped me. John Bunyan the old Puritan, and not Paul Bunyan, not his big blue ox, not that guy. John Bunyan the Puritan, who's sort of a quasi-Baptist, and Holiness by JC Ryle. Just a tremendous book. No one says it like Spurgeon and Ryle in their contemporaries.
Speaker 3:Ryle is just so simple. Yes, and yet so profound.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Anyone can read him. Anyone can read Calvin's Institutes and benefit. People think he's this ivory tower theologian with all the pedantic language. That's not the case at all.
Speaker 1:Well, gosh, we could talk about this for days upon end. This is a passion for us. We want it to be a passion for you, so check out some of these books. Maybe I'll try to put some links on our website or something, to some of these things we've discussed here. Reach out to us. You can email us, you can get a hold of us. We'll be happy to recommend these things more. We love to do this, and so thank you for tuning in. Be sure to like us, consider leaving a five-star review. Subscribe to us. We're on all your favorite platforms, and don't miss our other ministries. At the Baptist Courier, the Baptist Courier Monthly Magazine, subscribe to that. At baptistcouriercom, which is also our website that's updated with news and features every single day of the week, and also career publishing, which is growing all the time, and within the next few years, we expect to have about 20 to 25 titles out, and so don't miss that. Well, thanks so much for listening and we'll look forward to seeing you next month on Courier Conversations.
Speaker 2:We're glad you joined us for Courier Conversations, where we are informing and inspiring South Carolina Baptists and beyond. For more information about these topics and more, subscribe to our e-edition or go to our website at baptistcouriercom. The Courier is located in Greenville, South Carolina, as a multimedia ministry partner of the South Carolina Baptist Convention. To comment about today's podcast email us at conversations at baptistcouriercom. This podcast, produced by Bob Sloan Audio Productions
