Courier Conversations
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Courier Conversations
Reading as Spiritual Discipline
The written word has shaped Christian formation since the church began, and in this revealing conversation, Jeff Robinson and Travis Kearns explore how reading remains essential for spiritual growth today.
"Of making many books there is no end," wrote Solomon in Ecclesiastes – not as a criticism of reading itself, but as a caution against making knowledge an idol above God. Even the Apostle Paul, facing death in a Roman prison, requested his books and parchments for comfort and edification. This biblical foundation sets the stage for a discussion about how intentional reading shapes the Christian mind.
Both hosts share their reading origin stories, recounting how J.R.R. Tolkien's works sparked their lifelong love of books around age 12. For many believers, fiction becomes the gateway to deeper theological exploration – whether through C.S. Lewis's allegories or John Grisham's moral dilemmas embedded in courtroom dramas. The conversation reveals how different genres – from presidential biographies to historical accounts of war – expand our understanding of human nature and leadership.
The heart of the episode centers on transformative Christian classics. Bunyan's "Pilgrim's Progress," written from prison by a persecuted Baptist preacher, tops both hosts' must-read lists. Other recommendations include J.C. Ryle's "Holiness," J.I. Packer's "Knowing God," and Calvin's "Institutes" – each offering profound insights into Christian theology and practice. These books don't merely inform; they transform readers through deep engagement with eternal truths.
For those who struggle to find time for reading, the hosts offer practical wisdom: commit to just 10-20 pages daily. This simple discipline, maintained consistently, allows anyone to complete substantial works over time. The minutes we often squander on social media scrolling could instead nourish our souls through intentional reading.
Ready to transform your spiritual life through reading? Begin with Scripture, add a Christian classic, and watch how God uses these written words to shape your heart and mind. Take up and read!
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Welcome to the latest episode of Courier Conversations, a ministry of the Baptist Courier and Publishing Company. I am Jeff Robinson, your host, and with me is my co-host, Travis Kearns, who is the mission strategist for the Three Rivers Association, and today we're talking about a topic that is near and dear to both of us. We'll start with Scripture, because we always want to start with Scripture.
Jeff:Ecclesiastes Solomon, I believe, wrote Ecclesiastes. He's the Koheleth there. He wrote this in chapter 12. My son beware of anything beyond these. And then he says this of making many books, there is no end and much study is weirdness of the flesh. Of the making of many books, what a beautiful statement. There is no end. I'm thankful there's not. We're going to talk about books this afternoon and reading as a discipline of the Christian life and as one of the really the mainstays of our sanctification at least it has been for me. We're going to talk about not just that, but also some books that God has used to help transform our lives, and so this ought to be a fun conversation. Yep, I'm looking forward to it. Well, Travis, the writer of Ecclesiastes here seems to take a negative view of books. What do you think about that? Is much study a weariness of the flesh flesh, or is it something we look forward to?
Travis:Yeah, it's interesting. You know, Ecclesiastes is one of those books. I'm actually reading through it right now in my morning devotions. So I read the first six chapters this morning and it's interesting how the book begins vanity, vanity, everything is vanity, vanity. But then he moves into eventually this real desire for and love for Christ and saying that everything outside of obviously pre-incarnate Christ he's got some prophetic notions going on here but everything outside of love for God is vanity.
Travis:So I think when he says in that particular verse you just quoted that you know books, quoted that books almost when you read that verse, books almost seem to be a negative sort of thing. I would argue they can be in the same way that Paul talks about endless genealogies in his epistles. They're not bad in and of themselves. They're only bad if they become idols outside of worship for God or leading you to worship knowledge or something like that. So maybe books for ancient Greek philosophers philosophy just simply meaning the love of knowledge, the love of wisdom that would have been idolatrous for them. So I can very well see where the author of Ecclesiastes is arguing that books are bad not in and of themselves, but in the case that they're replacing a love for Christ, because you love wisdom more than the God who created the wisdom.
Jeff:That's right. Well, and that's why I'm more to Adler, a book that you and I have used in our classes when we taught long ago and far away how to Read a Book Yep, which is an interesting title in and of itself because you have to know book that you and I have used in our classes when we taught long ago and far away how to Read a Book Yep.
Travis:Which is an interesting title in and of itself, because you have to know how to read a book before you know how to read a book. There's a lot of irony there.
Jeff:But not every book should be read cover to cover, right, and some books ought not to be read at all, I guess because the printing press and, of course now digital media has been misused in sinful ways. We're not here to talk about that, so much as we want to talk about reading, of course, the Bible, but also Christian books, books that aren't explicitly Christian, as a means of our growth and sanctification, our means of growth as people. And I love to tell my children and I love to tell lay people, when I was a pastor, that God wrote a book, which means he wants everybody to read, and of course, that's a clever device with your children.
Travis:Right right.
Jeff:Because I'm bigger than them. They have to read when they're homeschooling them. But I do think that's true, that not just the book, but I mean scripture. Both in the Old and New Testament there were sources and resources. The writers used to write Scripture, and the Holy Spirit superintended that of course, but books and we're going to talk about a few specific books for both of us, and books in addition to Scripture have really and continue to change my life in profound ways.
Travis:Yeah, I think, another important text to point out. As you said, we want to always go to Scripture to see what Scripture says 2 Timothy, 4.13. Paul says when you come, bring the cloak which I left at Troas with Carpus, and the books, especially the parchments. So here's Paul, 2 Timothy being the last book that he wrote before he's killed, chapter 4 being the last chapter of the last book he wrote before he's killed, and verse 13,. At the very end of it he's asking for books to be brought to him.
Travis:So it's interesting that at the end of Paul's life and I think he very well knew what was coming at the end of his life he's asking for books to be brought he finds comfort in. Not only does he want a cloak because he's cold, because he's in a prison cell, he needs comfort physically but also needs comfort mentally. The parchments probably when he says that probably means some Old Testament writings, but he also says the books. So there are other writings that he's reading. He's interested in reading. Really have no idea what those books were, but the parchments probably refer back to Old Testament writings, maybe even some of the Gospels that might have been going around at that time in early editions, but probably Old Testament writings. So yeah, you know, they can be comforting, they can be sanctifying. They can also be damning if you're reading the wrong things or too much of the wrong things. But yeah, I think it's interesting that Paul wants physical comfort and mental or emotional comfort and he gets that through reading.
Jeff:Yeah, I can understand that. I love reading and I love books. In fact, I'm the president of a publishing company now, as it turns out, courier Publishing. We publish books, serious books for serious-minded Christians, and so we take great pride in that, and my wife always says that's a fitting calling for you at this juncture of your life, but I think I first fell in love with books and reading. I was about 12 years old, and it was through the means of JRR Tolkien and the Lord of the Rings and the.
Jeff:Hobbit. I think I remember reading the Hobbit when I was in maybe sixth grade and thinking this is great. It made me want to get outside of my hometown. I grew up in a little place called Blairsville, georgia, and you know, you you're from, you got relatives in that neck of the woods. It's not, there's not much there in terms of the world itself, and I, you know maybe, want to think beyond. I wonder what's outside of here, I wonder what's out there in the world, and it kind of expanded my mind. I think on the back it had if you love this, you'll read these. And so I just really fell in love with the books because they could take me places that maybe I couldn't travel when I was over 13 years old or teach me about things I wanted to learn. And I grew up my early, my childhood. Google was the World Book Encyclopedia.
Travis:World Book Encyclopedia. Yep, you knew that was coming. A beige and green cover hardcover. That's exactly right About 20 or 25 volumes.
Jeff:I mean I would in summers, you know. We were all living out in the country on a farm.
Jeff:There wasn't much to do, I'd get tired of riding my motorcycle and chasing cattle and playing baseball by myself. So I'd go in and, man, I would just go through those and you know I'd look at baseball and you'd read and there'd be you know, 30 pages about this and then that would lead me to other books. Maybe I'm worried about Roberto Clemente. I want to read a biography about him and I get a children's biography. I go to the library, I do library books all summer, so I just fell in love with the reading and ever since I just can't get enough reading and I know you're pretty much the same way.
Travis:Yeah, it's interesting that your first memory of specific books comes from Tolkien. Mine's the same way. So I remember reading the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings in seventh grade literature at a public school here in Greenville and couldn't put it down. In eighth grade we did Chronicles of Narnia by Lewis. So yeah, I mean, that's it. We've got the same first memory of something that you actually wanted to read Around the same age.
Travis:Yeah, around the same age, you a little bit earlier than my memories were, but maybe about 10 years or so. But you know, other books I didn't, I had no care or concern for whatsoever. My first introduction to wanting to read the Bible actually came when my parents bought me a study Bible. They bought me a life application study Bible and all the commentary, all the notes at the bottom of each page really brought the Bible to life for me. I mean, I grew up in a church, had great elementary, middle and high school teachers on and on, but for some reason those additional notes that were right there in front of me really helped me bring it to light, make it practical. But yeah, you know, ever since, probably seventh grade, outside of algebra or chemistry books, that I didn't want to read but had to. I've always enjoyed reading and it was Tolkien, yeah, that started for me.
Jeff:Yeah, yeah, I can remember. We found we still have my first Bible and it's interesting. I got it when I was three I think, and it's a King James Bible. You know, love the King James, love the beautiful Elizabethan language, but my children found it recently in our house and they pointed out I had drawn some things. In the cover the first cover, I think I tried to draw a picture of a pastor. It looked like.
Jeff:So they had a kick out of that. They said so we're not the first children not to listen to the sermon. I said hey.
Speaker 3:I was like four, yeah, yeah, right, but I think I mean I grew up around books.
Jeff:We had I mean, my parents bought the world book. My dad was a reader. He loved biography and I think my favorite genre I mean I love theology and love history, but it's biography because I love people. Everybody has a story Right and I read I don't know, I read eclectic biographies. I read, you know, all the Calvin and Luther and Spurgeon and all the Puritans.
Jeff:I've read all those and I still read those too. But you know, I've actually read a biography and this is going to. If Brian Payne were here, he's the one who would recommend this. I read a biography once of Charles Manson. That was really compelling because it really set the scene as to how all that unfolded. I grew up with the Manson murder it always kind of lurked in the back of the American consciousness after 69 and 70s.
Jeff:And so just reading that and teaching me more about the 70s when I was a kid, I mean, I've read a biography of Keith Richards of the Rolling Stones. Wow, I mean, these men are older now and they're more serious and they tell you about their lives. So I don't know. That's probably my favorite genre, of course, outside theology and church history to read. I'm always it seems like I'm always reading a biography. What about you? What are your preferred genres?
Travis:Yeah, I'm going to be a little bit less academic and probably a little bit more nerdy here. So, outside of books that I have to read and by have to I mean that as generously as I can for ministry, so theology, church history, I mean that as generously as I can for ministry, so theology, church history, things like that my favorite genre is fiction, without any doubt, and it's one author specifically. It's John Grisham. So I've read everything he's written. I love courtroom fiction, legal fiction. Grisham has obviously also written a couple of nonfiction works. He's got a short fiction book on baseball. That's really good, and by short I mean less than 100 pages. But his books are just mind-blowingly well-written.
Jeff:I've read it.
Travis:You pick one up and you just can't put it down. I remember one specific one called the Brethren. It's about three former judges who were in prison that were running this racketeering scheme from prison and it's probably a I don't know four or 500 page fiction book and I read it in about a week and just couldn't put it down. So if I want my mind to escape from whatever's going on, I'm always going to go to a fiction book. Now also I'll be and maybe nerdy is not the right word for that but maybe a little more childish.
Travis:I'll also be nerdy and say I love reading historical fiction. They're kind of fun because they're partially true, partially not. But then I love reading and maybe this is the old man in me I love reading stories about how wars start. There's an incredible book about the beginning of World War I called the Guns of August that show how just a few little missteps and misunderstandings here and there led to the First World War and it really has great leadership lessons in it. It has great lessons for watching what you say, how you say it, how you interpret what other people are saying. It's just fascinating. But yeah, to answer the question directly, I'd go to fiction every single time, that's interesting?
Jeff:Yep, I think for me it's biography and history. I mean, I love the past. My dad was a World War II veteran. He'd read a lot of history. I read a lot of World War II history. Obviously, my dad fought, made three jumps in combat. So I've always been fascinated with that war and always asking myself well, can I have done that? What those guys? Right now I'm reading a biography of J Edgar Hoover.
Travis:Is that the one that Brian Payne suggested? That's the one he wrote. I'm reading the same one.
Jeff:I was reading it actually for Brian, so, brian, I can't give him credit for this one. He always costs me money, but by Beverly Gage. It's a great book.
Travis:I'm reading the same book.
Jeff:Excellent, excellent book. I just finished a biography of Earl Weaver, the great manager for the Baltimore Orioles.
Travis:As a Yankees fan, I can't read a book about anything connected to the Orioles.
Jeff:Well, I read a lot of the Yankees guys too. I mean, I love baseball so I read a lot of biographies. I still read a lot of baseball. I do that for pleasure, usually at night when I go to bed.
Jeff:I'll try to read something that's not as serious at that time. But yeah, and like you, I learned a lot from these men. I learned a lot of life lessons, learned things not to do. If you read Keith Richards, you learn about, I mean, why those guys were so wild and crazy and how they regret it now. Even you know he's not a Christian but certainly regrets some of the foolish things he did as a young man, and he even talks about music and his theories of music.
Travis:It's fascinating how smart some of these people are, how sharp some of these guys are. I'll tell you. What's been interesting for me is, anytime a presidential administration goes out of office, usually senior members of the administration will write, including the president will write either an autobiography or a memoir of either four or eight years in the White House. Those are fascinating. It doesn't matter for me if it's Republican or Democrat or independent authors. I'll read them just to see from their own perspective. Now, of course, every author's got spin, but that's nonetheless. They're just intriguing to read, to see what was going through their heads, what all's going on in the world, especially ones that I've lived through.
Jeff:Right, exactly.
Travis:Yeah, but those are incredibly interesting to read as well.
Jeff:Yeah, well, one of my aims in life and I just turned 58, so we'll see if this happens is to read a biography of every single American president. And right now I'm about I'm on about 21, I think, and so I hope I'll get there. And right now I'm about I'm on about 21, I think, and so I hope I'll get there. And Ronald Reagan was my favorite president and one of my heroes.
Jeff:Nixon was mine yeah and I've read a lot about Nixon. I love Nixon. I read a biography, another biography of his last summer, but a new Reagan biography just came out and I hope to read that soon. But I try to read every biography on Reagan because I was in high school and college during those years and those are sort of the golden years of I guess you look at it in your life.
Jeff:but it's fascinating to read about the Cold War, the end of the Cold War, George HW Bush, and then of course his son, who I was privileged to interview many, many years ago well, actually, both of those men when I worked in secular journalism. But yeah, you learn a lot from those men and so I hope to accomplish that. Yeah, that's kind of it right now. So what about Christian books? Let's talk about books that will be good for people's hearts. What books have influenced you? What four or five books, if you had to recommend you say you're going to be stranded on a deserted island. You've got the Bible and four or five books or sets of books let's throw that in that you would recommend or you would want to have with you what would those be?
Travis:Yeah, obviously the Bible is going to be the first one, so we go outside of that one. The first one I'd recommend is Pilgrim's Progress by Bunyan, just a classic, absolutely phenomenal. And so perfectly describes in analogy form the Christian life. Really really well done. Another one, in no particular order, would be CS Lewis's Screwtape Letters. To get a sense of from Lewis's understanding how Satan works, how demons work, work even though it's a twisted perspective from the demons own point of view. Screw tape writing to Wormwood, you know the, just the way in which the enemy works. I think it's just fascinating.
Travis:Two others I would say that are more theologically dense. One is Sinclair Ferguson's the Holy Spirit. It's a book I read every single year. It's the most devotional theology book I've ever read, absolutely phenomenal. And then I would say a topic we were talking about before we started recording this is a book called the Many Faces of Evil by John Feinberg. So it's a book on the problem of evil. He deals with it theologically, philosophically and practically, and the last chapter is worth the entire book because he talks about how to deal with evil from a practical perspective. What do you say to people, what do you do for people who are dealing with very difficult circumstances in life. So yeah, I would say, especially if I'm stranded on a deserted island, I want something on evil, because I'm not going to be in a grand happy place for long mentally. But Pilgrim's Progress, screwtape Letters, the Holy Spirit by Ferguson and then Many Faces of Evil by Feinberg.
Jeff:Well, you definitely covered. My first choice after the Bible would be Pilgrim's Progress. I read that about every other year and that has really shaped my view of the Christian life, my view of sanctification, my view of just life in this world. And if you've not read that book and you're a Christian, you need to read that book. You go, run out right now, stop what you're doing, go out, buy the book. There's even some in updated language or some in the Elizabethan language. But he wrote that from prison and John Bunyan was a Baptist and he was arrested and jailed for 12 years for preaching the gospel. And he told them if you let me out, I'll be preaching the gospel by this time tomorrow. And so they kept him in and he wrote that God used him mightily.
Jeff:I think another book for me would be Holiness, by an Anglican writer named JC Ryle. He's a contemporary of Charles Spurgeon Holiness I've read probably 10 times now. It's an infinitely quotable book. It's really the best book I've ever read on sanctification. It's 120 years old or so. That one Another one by a lesser known Puritan.
Jeff:I love the Puritans and we'll talk about that in some episode. On the Puritans, the Blessed and Boundless God by George Swinnick A little on Puritan, but one of the best books on the doctrine of God. It's just 45 three or four-page chapters. You can read it devotionally and just the depth of which he goes to understand the holiness and the wrath of God and the goodness of God, the love of all the attributes of God. Along the same lines, a book that shaped me was amazingly years ago was Knowing God by JI Packer. Absolutely love that book. I took our staff here at the Baptist Courier through it. Packer writes really well, it's beautifully written and so I think those would cover kind of what I well, I'll say this Calvin's Institutes and that may surprise some people. John Calvin the great reformer invented systematic theology basically, and that is a systematic theology but it's infinitely devotional. He writes plainly and clearly in a way that just is wonderful, isn't it?
Jeff:And I read through it every maybe three or four years, and so that's kind of where I am with books, and I'm always reading a book or two from my own heart and my own sanctification.
Travis:Yeah, let me just throw something in really quickly as we're running out of time. A lot of people may be listening to this, or maybe a few people are, and they hear us talking about books and think I just don't have time for that. There's no way. Our mutual friend who's been on this before, brian Payne, told me one time that his goal every day is to read 20 pages. Whatever it is, he just reads 20 pages and he stops, and every 20 days he can read a 400-page book. So if you can't do 20 pages a day, you could do 10. And then in about a month and a week you can read a 400-page book.
Travis:Anybody can read 10 pages a day. You're probably scrolling on your phone, on Facebook or some type of social media more than 10 pages a day worth of reading, and there's things that are in print that are exponentially and infinitely more sanctifying than anything you're going to find on social media anywhere. That's right. So 10, 20 pages a day, whatever you've got time for, you have the time. You just have to make the time. So find the time, read some good, talk to your pastor, ask him what some good books are and just commit to some type of page limit, some type of maximum you're going to read every single day and once you develop the habit, the discipline of reading, it's hard to put it down.
Jeff:Absolutely. I don't think I can offer any better advice. I do the same thing myself. I try to read a book a week. That's my goal. Don't always accomplish that. But, of course, I'm reading four or five books at once. You probably are too, in different genres. But yeah Well, st Augustine, the great early church father, maybe the greatest of the church fathers, was saved when he heard some men, some children playing next door to the Garden of Milan chanting Tolle Legge.
Jeff:Tolle Legge, which means, in Latin, take up and read, take up and read. So our call to you out there in podcast land is take up and read, take up and read. Read the Bible and then give yourself to good books, especially in the summer, when you've got more time and there's just more of those lazy, hot days here in South Carolina or beyond. Wherever you're listening to this, take up and read. You'll be happy that you did. Yep, well, we're out of time here. Thank you for tuning in. Be sure, and give us a five-star review. If you would catch us on all the social media platforms I won't name those, you know what they are. Don't miss our new books that are coming out all the time. Courierpublishingcom Our main website is baptistcouriercom for news and information, updated daily news and features from around South Carolina and across the evangelical world. So thanks for joining us and we look forward to seeing you later this month.
Speaker 3:We're glad you joined us for courier conversations, where we are informing and inspiring South Carolina Baptists and beyond. For more information about these topics and more, subscribe to our e-edition or go to our website at baptistcouriercom. The Courier is located in Greenville, south Carolina. As a multimedia ministry partner of the South Carolina Baptist Convention To comment about today's podcast, email us at conversations at baptistcouriercom. This podcast, produced by Bob Slone Audio Productions,
