Courier Conversations
This Podcast of Courier Conversations will be a conversation of topics with a variety of guests that concern, inspire and inform Christians about current events Worldwide. We hope you'll find our stories informing and encouraging in your daily walk with Christ.
Courier Conversations
Faith, Flag, and Freedom: Navigating Christian Patriotism
As Independence Day approaches, Christians face the perennial question: How should we navigate the relationship between our faith and our national identity? In this thought-provoking conversation, we explore the biblical foundations for a Christian's responsibility toward the state, beginning with the nuanced understanding of Romans 13.
While Paul instructs believers to submit to governing authorities, this submission has clear boundaries. When government demands contradict scripture or conscience, Christians must respectfully dissent. From abortion laws to restrictions on religious gatherings during COVID-19, believers constantly navigate this delicate balance.
The Baptist tradition offers unique insights here, representing what some call the "true Reformers" who pushed beyond Luther and Calvin in separating church and state. This historical perspective reveals two distinct spheres: the church wielding "the sword of the spirit" through gospel proclamation, while the state rightfully wields "the sword of steel" for maintaining justice. Unfortunately, many American Christians have increasingly blurred these distinctions.
We tackle controversial questions head-on: Should churches host patriotic services? Does 2 Chronicles 7:14 apply to modern America? What's the relationship between biblical Israel and the modern nation-state? Through careful biblical examination, we distinguish between appropriate gratitude for our nation and the dangerous conflation of American identity with Christian faith.
Whether you're wrestling with Christian nationalism, wondering about patriotic elements in worship, or seeking to honor both God and country faithfully, this conversation offers biblical guidance for celebrating Independence Day as citizens of heaven living in America.
Subscribe, share, and join us next month for more thought-provoking discussions on faith and culture!
https://baptistcourier.com
https://bobslone.com/home/podcast-production/
Welcome to another episode of Career Conversations. I'm Jeff Robinson, your host with Travis Kearns, as always, and today we are here to talk about an upcoming holiday in our country, a holiday that I love the 4th of July. We celebrate our nation's independence in just a few days, and so today we're going to talk about this, about the Christian's independence in just a few days, and so today we're going to talk about this, about the Christians' responsibility toward the state, how we ought to view America and the 4th of July and our president and all things related to that. And, travis, I know you have no strong opinions on anything, and certainly not this, probably, so I'll just throw this out to you what should we be thinking about as Christians on the 4th of July?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no strong opinions about anything. I tend to waffle and kind of just hope for the best and just play the neutral ground on everything.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, we thought it'd be fun today to maybe talk about as you mentioned, the 4th of July is an upcoming holiday. How should we as Christians think about patriotism inside the SBC? There's been some talk, at least in our circles, about Christian nationalism. There's been talk about that even more in larger evangelical circles, especially with some folks in different parts of the US. So thought it might be fun today to kind of kick that around, and especially some verses in the Old Testament, like 2 Chronicles, 7, 14, that are discussed a pretty good bit, especially in SBC life around July the 4th.
Speaker 2:How do those verses apply? Do they apply, and if so, how do they apply, to the modern church and to the modern American landscape? So first, a good place to start is always Romans 13, as we talk about government and political issues, because that's Paul coming close to the end of that letter to the Romans dealing with the government, and he says in verse 1, let everyone submit to the governing authorities, since there is no authority except from God and the authorities that exist are instituted by God. So then, verse 2, the one who resists the authority is opposing God's command and those who oppose it will bring judgment on themselves. He goes on and continues through verse 7, talking about the government. When we read this text, jeff, the first question I think that comes to my mind is does this mean that we simply do what the government says at all costs? If it's, let's say, for example, it's a communist government or a very Marxist government, or it's a government that is in opposition to Christianity, should we simply follow the government blindly? Is that what Paul's saying in Romans 13?
Speaker 1:No, I believe, and I think this has been. If you think about the Reformation tradition in Christianity, the reformers you talk about the magisterial reformers, they were reforming the church within the context of the magisterium, of course, baptists being the free church tradition, we broke from that and thought this church and state should be radically separate in many ways ways. But the short answer is no. I mean, we follow the government insofar as our laws, the laws of the land, and their desires for us to follow them, are biblical. They don't cause us to violate our conscience or violate things we find in scripture, which is why it is the law of the land that abortion on demand is legal, and yet we oppose that.
Speaker 1:10 years ago this year, I guess ten years ago this week one of the landmark decisions by the Supreme Court of the United States to change the definition of marriage allowed homosexuals to get married. Obviously, as evangelical Christians, we disagree with that, and so we've spoken out as Southern Baptists many times against that, even asking the SCOTUS to revisit that. This past convention we had a measure asking for the Supreme Court to consider overturning that, to restoring traditional marriage to its place of privilege, and so no, the answer is no when we do submit to Caesar and render unto Caesar, as Jesus said, what belongs to him, insofar as it doesn't cause us to do things that are unbiblical, and beyond that we have to dissent.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and this topic, even just a few years ago, when COVID hit in 2020, was a huge point of contention when, especially some states more than others uh, restricted churches from meeting. I know you were in Kentucky at the time uh, and the governor of Kentucky at that point literally forbade churches from getting together. Put, I remember seeing stories we were in Texas at the time, but I remember seeing stories of Kentucky with state troopers positioned in roads where you couldn't turn to get into church parking lots, you know so, things like that. And again, I know it's a very controversial subject, difficult topic to think through, not only for governmental reasons, but also for health reasons. But, yeah, looking at a government injunction like that or government command instruction like that can be very difficult for the Christian to think through.
Speaker 2:Francis Schaeffer, in his really well-written work Christian Manifesto, talks about in there that we should follow Romans 13, obviously, but that there's also times in the Christian's life when, if the government is doing something that's explicitly unbiblical, Schaeffer argues there could be a point at which the Christian needs to rise up and work to either stop what the government is doing or outright overthrow the government, which is fascinating for Schaeffer to say that, because he is definitely not a wartime kind of person. He's very much a. He's not a pacifist, but he's close. But he even says in the Christian Manifesto there may be a time we need to rise up and say no, enough is enough. And if they don't listen, work to as biblically as possible, stop the government from doing what it's doing. I think Romans 13 allows for that. So that's just a place for us to start kind of think through what's going on in the US, what's going on with Christians in the US?
Speaker 1:That's right, and this is where Baptists sometimes well, we've been called a lot of things historically, but we've been called the true Reformers because we continued the Reformation, I think in the area of ecclesiology, whereas the Reformers Calvin and Luther and others are often called the magisterial reformers because they sought to reform the church within the context of the magisterium. But the Baptists rose around a Puritan separatism in the 17th century and said no, the government and state are called to wield two different spheres. There's sphere sovereignty.
Speaker 1:City of God, city of man, that's right, it's Augustine, city of God and city of man. The church is called to wield the sword of the spirit, which is preaching the bible for the conversion of souls. The state is called to wield the sword of steel, which is punishing wrongdoers and making sure the laws of the land that are just laws are followed and the things that our government does. And so I think looking at that sort of historical bit of historical theology helps us today. But do you think Southern Baptists tend to think of the two spheres like that, or do you think we sometimes muddle the two?
Speaker 2:I think Southern Baptists for the most part, especially over the last 40 to 50 years, conflate those two together pretty badly. I think they see modern-day America as and I don't mean this as a knock in any way, shape or form towards the US or towards US military. My dad was in the military, served in Vietnam for a couple of years as a helicopter door gunner, so he's one of the guys that miraculously made it through without being killed as a door gunner because he went in and did hot drops and hot pickups in the whole nine yards. But I think Southern Baptists have conflated those two things pretty badly. So we see America, the US, as kind of the savior of the world, not only politically but also from a Christian point of view.
Speaker 2:And a lot of times, as we mentioned in the intro, 2 Chronicles 7.14 is thrown around and my people who bear my name humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their evil ways. I'll hear from heaven, forgive their sin and heal their land. Now that promise is obviously not to the US. That is a promise specifically given to Solomon for the nation of Israel in the Old Testament. This is for a particular land because that's part of the original covenants God gives to Moses for this land that he's going to get the people into. Abraham is people, moses is land, david is Messiah.
Speaker 2:So 2 Chronicles 7.14 doesn't apply to America at all, and the difficulty is, though, is that we for some reason have muddied the water between what the US does in the world and what the church should be doing in the world. I told students for years when I was on faculty at Southern and at Southwestern just said this to our pastors in our association a couple of days ago via email we can't confuse firing missiles with fixing the problems in the world. Missiles won't do anything but kill people. Now, sometimes, war is justified. We have just war theory and ethics.
Speaker 2:War is justified because people are doing things that need to be stopped, but that doesn't fix the problem. That's a band-aid. The only real solution we have to the problem in the world is the proclamation of the gospel. Militaries can't fix issues. Missionaries can fix issues Real, significant, underlying, abiding issues. So, yeah, I think we do muddy the water. I think it gets muddied up or muddled up too much, and it's not to say that we shouldn't be patriots or be proud to live in the US, but it is to say we need to make sure and keep the main thing, the main thing.
Speaker 1:That's right. I mean I'll say the same thing of my father. Both of our fathers were military men. My dad was 101st Airborne World War II. I wrote about this in the last magazine about what I learned from him about biblical manhood. He's a very godly man. He made three jumps in combat jumped to North Africa, jumped at Market Garden, which of course was a laughable disaster, and then, of course, made the jump to Normandy, and so I love our country. I'm very thankful to have grown up here, thankful that we are free to worship according to the dictates of our conscience, thankful we have a free press and everything. I love this land. I've got to go to my house right now. There's an American flag on my front porch that we fly proudly.
Speaker 2:I'm a South Carolinian, so mine has a South Carolina flag on the front porch.
Speaker 1:Well, during football season, there's a big red and black G that flies in front of our house.
Speaker 3:Football season I had an orange South.
Speaker 1:Carolina flag. Okay, and I figured you did so. We've got to get that in because we have a streak going here of mentioning our respective teams. But having said all that, I was raised to love this country, to be thankful, thankful for, and I am. I'm thankful for our presidents and our legislature and thankful for those who govern us. I mean, however, should we? I have to ask the question. I've been a pastor, for I was a pastor for a long time have you been a pastor? Should we have Fourth of July services in our churches and celebrate just the nation itself?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's a great question. I think it's perfectly acceptable to be thankful to God for the freedom that we have in the US but, quite frankly, I don't go to church to worship the US because the US did not save me. The US did not. No president ever got up from the grave. For all the great things that Washington did, for all the great things that Lincoln did, for all the great things that Kennedy did, that Nixon, reagan, whoever it might be, the great things that all those men have done, they are still dead in the grave. I go to a corporate worship setting for the sake of worshiping corporately with other believers, the death, burial, resurrection of Christ, to worship the risen King who is sitting at the right hand of the Father, interceding on my behalf even now, and on your behalf and every other believer's behalf. So when I was a pastor, we did not do patriotic type services. We would say, hey, you know it's Fourth of July weekend or whatever. We can be thankful for our nation, praise God for His providence in giving us freedom in our country to worship and to pray and to be free in doing so, but we never worship the country. I would be remiss if I didn't say this.
Speaker 2:I think there are plenty of places around the world where there are more Christians, interestingly living below the equator than above, where they would never even consider having any sort of patriotic service in a Christian worship setting, because the governments are evil. Think about Christians in Iran. Would they dare have? With Iran and Israel in the news right now especially, would they dare have a patriotic service at a Christian church in Iran? No way. Would you have one in Afghanistan? Probably not.
Speaker 2:Would you have one in North Korea? No way Would you have one in Afghanistan. Probably not. Would you have one in North Korea? No way Would you have one in Northern Nigeria where Boko Haram is headquartered? No, absolutely not. So it's interesting that it's an American specifically type event. You know, we could look at maybe some churches in Europe, but those are few and far between, that are solid evangelical. They're there but they're small or few and far between anyway. So, yeah, it's one of those things where I think there could be some latitude of Christian liberty, so Romans 14 type, christian liberty in these things. But I'm the guy who's always going to say I go to a corporate worship setting with other believers to worship the risen Savior, not to worship red, white and blue.
Speaker 1:That's right, theoretically at least.
Speaker 1:in that congregation might be people from every tribe and tongue and people and nation, because Christ died for every tribe and tongue and nation, and it does level, although the cross levels all those distinctions, doesn't it? And so I think we have to be really careful Now. We just celebrated I guess it was week before last we had this beautiful service in Washington DC the 250th anniversary of the Army, and I watched a lot of that and I love that because, again, I'm from a military family, my wife is. Her father did two tours of duty in Vietnam and spent retired after 25 years in service for our country. I'm grateful for that. But that's not a church service and there weren't the trappings of a worship service there, and so I think that's entirely appropriate. However, that's not the church and not it should be, I think at least kept out of the church. But I don't care. We can give thanks for these things and I'm glad we can. And now, okay, here's another question.
Speaker 3:Oh boy.
Speaker 1:And you know what's coming here. We talked about this at lunch and we were discussing what we're going to talk about here. The $10 million question Among Southern Baptists, especially in our Southern Baptist Zion, the Deep South. Southern Baptist Zion, the Deep South, is Old Testament Israel, the same as the Israel who is our ally today. In other words, is there a separation, a distinction between political Israel and theological Israel?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I would argue in two ways that those are completely separate and distinct entities. One reason I would argue that is because of Paul's argument in Romans that now this will make people. There's a controversy over this. Let's say it that way. So this will make some listeners very uncomfortable.
Speaker 1:And this is a Christian liberty issue.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is a Christian liberty issue as well. This is not a heaven or hell issue by any stretch.
Speaker 2:This is an interior inside the house discussion. Yeah, I would argue that the church has replaced Israel. I think Paul argues that in Romans, hebrews, yeah, that Israel has been broken off. Those branches have been broken off, the church has been grafted in. If Israel, the Jews, want to rejoin in the covenant community, they can do so through Christ.
Speaker 2:But there is, you know, unfortunately. I'm going to argue strongly that John Hagee in San Antonio is wrong. There are not two covenants that are currently running, one for Jews and one for Christians. If a person, any person in the world, who dies, dies without faith, commitment to and belief in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, that person dies, lost period. It doesn't matter what nation they live in, what religion they grew up in, whatever it may be. So, first of all, I'd argue it biblically. Second, I would argue it just from a larger hermeneutical perspective.
Speaker 2:There are two main perspectives, two main ways to read the Bible. One is a dispensational hermeneutic, one is a covenantal hermeneutic. I read the Bible covenantally, so most who read it from a dispensational hermeneutic will read Old Testament Israel and modern Israel as similar, if not the same entities, with the same blessings given to modern Israel that are given to Old Testament, israel. So I would say no, again, based on Paul's argument in Romans, as you mentioned, in Hebrews, and then based on just my overall hermeneutic of the way I read the text yeah, Well, and I agree with you, I read the Bible, covenant, italy I think that makes up what theologians would call the spine of the Bible.
Speaker 1:And of course you have Hebrews. Hebrews, christ is a better high priest. Christ is a better king. Christ is a better prophet, he's the final. You know those offices, the three offices, the threefold offices in the Old Testament point to and are fulfilled in Christ.
Speaker 1:Right, and I think here's a passage that's overlooked is Romans, chapter 2. And this has always intrigued me. I would argue that the New Testament redefined Jewishness, and here's my basis for that Romans 2, 28 and 29. For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, biology, nor is circumcision outward and physical, okay, but a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart. In the New Covenant, by the spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. So it seems to me that when the New Testament speaks of Gentiles, typically not always, but typically speaking of unbelievers. So that's the distinction in the New Testament is we're the Israelites in the New Testament, the church the Israelites in the New Testament, the church, right, yeah. So when you're reading the Old Testament and you want to apply it for today. You think about the church Right, because the church is the ultimate fulfillment, because it's every tribe and tongue and people and nation regardless of biology Right Not applied to this geopolitical entity we now call the nation of Israel.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Now should we support them? I think we should.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they're one of our few allies in the Middle East.
Speaker 1:And we're grateful for them and we'll support them wholeheartedly. Should we pray for them? Should we pray for the peace of Israel? Yes, it's a different kind of peace.
Speaker 2:It's a political peace we're praying for. We pray for spiritual peace as well that they would hear the gospel and accept Christ.
Speaker 1:That's right, Because I think and I have never talked about that, We've talked about everything but this, probably in our 25 years of friends Romans 11,. I think there's a promise there for in the future, for Jews to come to Christ, There'll be an in-gathering of ethnic Jews who will come and will embrace their Messiah as Lord and Savior. And so you know I don't think I don't read the Bible dispensationally, you know where you are on that, but I think that's a promise, that yeah.
Speaker 2:And there is a, if I can recommend a book really quickly, written by a Baptist named Samuel Renahan, r-e-n-i-h-a-n. I know this book Entitled the Mystery of Christ, his Covenant and His Kingdom. That's a phenomenal. Look at a Baptist reading the Bible covenantally, because the vast majority of books written on covenantal theology are written by Presbyterians. That's right. So Mystery of Christ is a Baptist writing covenantally, that's right. We don't baptize babies?
Speaker 1:Nope, we do care how much water you get on an individual.
Speaker 2:We very much do.
Speaker 1:We're trained to be Christ Christian right. If you're a Presbyterian and you're listening to this, we love you and thank you. I have many friends who are Presbyterians and in some ways I have more in common with them sometimes than I do my Baptist family. But we love them and are thankful. But yeah, we dissent at that point. That's why we've been called the dissenters in history and now.
Speaker 1:Well, we can't solve all these issues here in just a few minutes, but we hope this has at least spawned you some thinking. As we approach the 4th of July, we are grateful for this land and all the blessings. God has certainly been good to us in ways that are just beyond belief right and continues to be Absolutely. As I've said many times from the pulpit, we have not gotten what we deserved Right In redefining gender and abortion, all the things that have changed America so much over the last years, in this moral revolution of the last 50 years or so. Well, thank you for listening.
Speaker 1:We look forward to being back with you in the middle of July, but be sure and like us and consider giving us a five-star review and don't miss our new books. We have new books now coming out all the time through Courier Publishing. Go to our website courierpublishingcom for that, and our main website, baptistcouriercom, which is being updated with news and features and biblical and theological content, historical content, just you name it. We got it there every day of about five days a week and sometimes on weekends even. We're quite busy here, so don't miss that. Pray for us and we look forward to seeing you next month on Courier Conversations.
Speaker 3:We're glad you joined us for Courier Conversations, where we are informing and inspiring South Carolina Baptists and beyond. For more information about these topics and more, subscribe to our e-edition or go to our website at baptistcouriercom. The Courier is located in Greenville, South Carolina, as a multimedia ministry partner of the South Carolina Baptist Convention. To comment about today's podcast email us at conversations at baptistcouriercom. This podcast, produced by Bob Sloan Audio Production,
