Courier Conversations
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Courier Conversations
Remembering John MacArthur: A Legacy of Bold Exposition
The recent passing of John MacArthur, one of evangelical Christianity's most influential voices, has left a profound void in pastoral leadership. Over 50 years of faithful ministry at Grace Community Church in Southern California, MacArthur revolutionized expository preaching for an entire generation of pastors. In this heartfelt conversation, Jeff Robinson and Travis Kearns reflect on MacArthur's extraordinary legacy and the broader concept of ministry heroes.
Jeff shares how MacArthur shaped his preaching from age 17 through the Grace to You tape ministry, calling him "the most important expositor among evangelicals the last 50 years." Both hosts recount personal encounters with MacArthur, emphasizing his surprising graciousness and warmth despite his reputation for boldness in the pulpit. This juxtaposition of theological conviction with personal kindness exemplifies what many consider the ideal pastoral temperament.
The discussion deepens as they explore whether Christians should have ministry heroes at all. Drawing from biblical examples like Paul and Timothy, they conclude that having heroes is appropriate when kept in proper perspective – looking to them as they follow Christ. The hosts vulnerably share their own ministry heroes, from internationally known figures like RC Sproul and Adrian Rogers to lesser-known but equally impactful mentors who shaped their pastoral approach.
MacArthur's direct communication style, sometimes misinterpreted as harshness, is contextualized within Western cultural norms where directness is valued over small talk. Perhaps most compelling is their recounting of MacArthur's ability to disagree theologically without becoming personally disagreeable – a rare skill in today's polarized discourse. Through books like "Ashamed of the Gospel" and "The Gospel According to Jesus," his voice will continue influencing evangelical Christianity for generations to come.
Whether you've followed MacArthur's ministry for decades or are just discovering his impact, this conversation offers valuable perspective on carrying forward a legacy of biblical faithfulness. Subscribe to the Baptist Courier and follow us on social media to join more discussions about the people and ideas shaping evangelical Christianity today.
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Welcome to another episode of Career Conversations. I'm Jeff Robinson, your host, with my co-host, travis Kearns, as usual, and so we are glad to be back, glad to have you here with us. Today. We are going to be talking about one of our heroes, a man who's just gone home to be with the Lord in the last few days, john MacArthur. And not only John MacArthur, but also the issue of ministry heroes. Talk about some of ours, some who may be your ministry heroes, and even the propriety, the question of should we put men like this on this kind of pedestal? Travis, good to have you with us. Travis, tell us who you are, in case the listeners have forgotten.
Travis:Yeah, thanks, jeff. So I'm Travis Kearns. I'm the Association Mission Strategist for the Three Rivers Baptist Association in Taylors, the northern half of Greenville County here in South Carolina and the western third of Spartanburg County. About 100 churches in that association dedicated to sharing the gospel of Christ and discipling believers. Dedicated to sharing the gospel of Christ and discipling believers.
Jeff:And I am president and editor-in-chief of the Baptist Career, the historic Baptist Career. We've been here 156 years. You and I haven't been here 156 years.
Travis:You might have been, I haven't been.
Jeff:That's right. I'm the old dude here Now. Listen. My dog's in the studio today, and so you know how I feel about dogs, and we wouldn't want him to bite a cat.
Travis:For the sake of listeners. It's not a bulldog.
Jeff:It's not, it's a border collie, and he's shy right now, so that's a good thing. But John MacArthur? John MacArthur's death, for many of us a very sad occasion, leaves a huge hole in the gap of faithful, long-time evangelical pastors, wouldn't you say?
Travis:Yeah, I think so, you know, pastoring for 50, maybe 50-plus years at Grace Community Church in Southern California, just outside of LA, presiding over the Master's Seminary for years, being a faithful husband to his wife for decades and being probably for guys like you and like me, jeff, probably being one of the first guys we cut our teeth on hearing actual expository preaching before expository preaching was the thing to be watching for, the thing to be listening for. He's really the guy that doesn't start it, because I think it starts in the New Testament, but he's the guy, I think, that popularizes it, at least in the US, especially in the mid-1980s, 1990s and moving forward. Yeah, but yeah, significant loss for him to go home to be with Christ.
Jeff:Yeah, I would argue that John MacArthur is the most important expositor, expositional preacher, among evangelicals the last 50 years, because his practice is so well left behind a massive body of work with commentaries. I've gotten those and you probably do too. Use many of those. I first started listening to John MacArthur when I was 17 years old, which was a long time ago. Is that on 8-track?
Travis:It was on.
Jeff:cassette, it was on cassette because my parents were members of his tape club, the Grace to you tape club. We had a Moody broadcast station out in Chattanooga, tennessee, not far from where I grew up in Georgia, and so we listened to that all the time and John MacArthur was on there. My parents loved him. Now they loved him on the issue that I disagree most with him on, and that's the end times. And so I love John MacArthur, love his theology.
Jeff:I didn't quite agree with him or that now Maybe I did back then. But they subscribed to his tape ministry and I remember the white tapes with the blue Grace to you logo on it and having many of those around the house that accumulated back during the late 70s and early mid 80s and so I heard John MacArthur a lot on the radio and so he was kind of a standard for me even back then. So when I Lord called me to ministry I learned to preach. I first started preaching by listening to his sermons and reading his book on expository preaching, which I think we read at Southern, we did.
Travis:And it's phenomenal If for no other reason than he includes one sermon's notes in that book, his handwritten notes that are actually published in the book, so you can see what he takes into the pulpit with him. Yeah, yeah.
Jeff:He taught me to preach. I mean, I try my best to preach, pastoring 15 years trying to preach book by book, verse by verse. I attend a church that's in your association one of the finest churches, I think, in your association because we have a pastor who preaches expositionally in the vein of John MacArthur. But his influence has just been amazing through Grace to you and through Grace Community Church, through the ShepCon, the Shepherds Conference out in California, which gave away lots and lots of books. It was just a massively important conference. And of course, you know, we you and I studied at Southern Seminary and he was at on our campus a good number of times, close friends with Albert Moeller, our president there, and it was always held up as a model.
Jeff:And I think what I loved most about Dr MacArthur, I think what I loved most about Dr MacArthur, besides his preaching, was his boldness, not just in the pulpit, his boldness on issues. He understood polemics, something that our culture today, such as our church culture, doesn't get Because we have to be nice to each other. Part of being an evangelical now is being nice, and so polemical theology is seen as outside the bounds of niceness, I think. And Dr MacArthur I had the pleasure of meeting him on numerous occasions, interviewing him for a book that Colin Hanson and I did called Faithful Endurance, back in 2019 on the occasion of his 50th anniversary in ministry at Grace Community Church, and he was one of the most gracious men I've ever interviewed or been around. You know, you kind of expect he's strong in the pulpit, you expect that outside the pulpit, but he could not have been a kinder man.
Jeff:I set up an interview and told him I needed 15 minutes and he was in his car driving to Phoenix and so he gave me an hour and I got off the phone. We talked about I'd always heard that he was kin to Douglas MacArthur, one of the generals I've been fascinated by for really my whole life and from World War II era in America we talked about that and of course, you know he was a sports guy, loved sports and he loved military history and things like that, so we got into talking about all kinds of things like that. That I didn't expect, so it was a bonus, and so you know we really are, you know, really going to miss men like him, and so I would definitely call him a hero and of course, that brings up raises the issue of is it proper for us to have ministry heroes to put men on that kind of pedestal? What do you think about that?
Travis:Yeah, I think it's perfectly acceptable. You see, now I'm not making a one-to-one by any stretch, but you see Timothy's hero in Paul, paul mentoring Timothy, timothy looking up to him. The same thing to some degree for Titus as he's on Crete looking for elders. So those churches on the island there in Crete or on Crete looking up to Paul, I think you see that to some degree, with James and John looking up to Peter, paul looking up to Peter on occasion, other occasions, you know they didn't exactly have the greatest of relationships necessarily, because Paul kind of levels them a few times, especially in Galatians, rightly so.
Travis:But yeah, I think it's perfectly acceptable to have people to whom we can look in ministry to model ourselves after. Obviously we look to Christ first. You look to the apostles leaders in the early church. But yeah, I Obviously we look to Christ first. You look to the apostles leaders in the early church. But yeah, I mean we look to guys that are following Christ and you model yourself after them. Paul says follow me as I follow Christ, model yourself after me as I model myself after Christ. Now, again, not a one-to-one analogy, because Paul's got the apostleship on him that obviously none of us have. But yeah, I think it's perfectly appropriate to have heroes, as long as we keep them in the right light. So looking to them as they imitate Christ, yeah.
Jeff:Yeah, I wrote an article just a couple of years ago on this very thing and I think it was a cover story for one of our magazines. When I first became editor here at the Baptist Courier, I said have ministry heroes who don't plagiarize them, because plagiarism has been an issue in our denomination Unfortunately, it reared its head in the last few years has been an issue in our denomination, unfortunately reared its head in the last few years. But, yeah, that's you know. I gave just a few pointers on how I've tried to have heroes and one of them has realized they're just men. These aren't just men.
Jeff:John MacArthur is just a man, but God's hand was on him and his ministry. I mean. He was definitely worthy of emulation. But let's talk about who our heroes are and we'll get back to that in just a minute. But I think most of my heroes are in heaven now. John MacArthur would be a prime among them RC Sproul, who died back in what 2017, a Presbyterian. In fact. I wrote a tribute to him. I'm actually working on a tribute to Dr MacArthur right now to publish on our website this week, but I wrote back then how this Presbyterian theologian helped form this Southern Baptist and I know he had a big, big impact on you and I've got a lot of well Harry Reeder.
Jeff:Some of our listeners may know Harry, another Presbyterian, a longtime pastor of Briarwood PCA in Alabama. He was a direct mentor of mine and he was a former Baptist. I used to tease Harry that you pastor the largest Southern Baptist church in Alabama, which wasn't far from the truth, and he sounded a lot like Adrian Rogers, another one of my heroes, ministry heroes. He sounded a lot like Adrian Rogers when he preached. He had that kind of Baptist way about him. You know what I mean. And so, yeah, adrian Rogers would be another one that I had. I loved the man's man, loved the Martin Luther. He kind of was our denomination. And then I've got to being a church historian. A lot of dead heroes, guys like Charles Spurgeon, martin Lloyd-Jones, jc Ryle in particular. In fact, I don't go a day without quoting JC Ryle, probably somewhere. And so, yeah, I've, I guess, growing up in athletics and being a ball player and being around sports, being a sports writer and all that heroes have always kind of come easy.
Travis:For me, yeah, for me. The pastor I grew up with at First Baptist Taylor's his name was Ernest Carswell was a pastor there 33 years. Just a faithful pastor, faithfully proclaimed the word for decades, faithfully pastored people. He was definitely a huge impact on me. My others don't quite have the name recognition as the Adrian Rogers or the MacArthur's or the Sproul's. Probably the biggest impact on me personally in ministry would be a guy named Charlie Draper. That I know, jeff, you know very well.
Travis:Very well, he performed my wedding when my wife and I were married. First met him in 1996 when they moved to North Greenville. Our college at that point now university he was a professor of mine worked for him. Just a phenomenal guy Down to earth, was very bold.
Travis:Jeff as you know, would often say things that would either catch you off guard or make you cry or both, which he did not mean to be, but that was his personality. But also pastored First Baptist Pearl Harbor in Hawaii for a while. So scholars mind pastor's heart. Probably two others for me, one was Chad Brand, that you also knew well. Scholars mind pastor's heart, that I also got to know at North Greenville before he went to Southern.
Travis:And then the other one, who just retired from North Greenville, is Walter Johnson, a man who can just be a country boy, who loves bulldogs not the Georgia version, but just raising English bulldogs and at the same time you can ask him a question about any philosopher from history, anything in church history, anything in systematic theology, and he'll give you a pastor's heart on it, but with a scholar's take. So just between those three men and then Dr Carswell. So those four really gave me a love for academics, but not for the sake of it, but academics for the sake of making it practical for church people and it really making an impact in your ministry and on your life personally. I mean, I told students for years if we learn all of this theology, we learn all this philosophy, all these apologetics and we don't do anything with it. It's just head knowledge and it's pointless. So take it on the street, do something with it, and that's a direct impact on me from Carswell, draper, brand and Johnson.
Jeff:Now, harry Reader always put it this way. He said theology must land on the ground somewhere, else it's useless. Yeah, and yeah, I'm like you. I had heroes that the world will never know, but they're godly men.
Jeff:Danny Paris, pastor of my home church, first Baptist Church in Blairsville, georgia, the first expository preacher I ever encountered, danny modeled himself in many ways after John MacArthur very similar in terms of how he approached the text of scripture and just a godly man with a wonderful sense of humor which came out of his preaching in inappropriate ways but taught me a lot about ministry just sitting under his ministry, for under his preaching for many, many years. And he wrote a recommendation for me to get a job at Southern Seminary a long time ago, knew Dr Moeller and recommended me to go there. Of course you know you're friends with the man who has mentored me and has meant the most to me probably anybody else besides my own father and that's Tom Nettles. Tom's a Southern Baptist historian with a pastor's heart. As you said, he has the heart of a scholar, the heart of a pastor, for sure, but Tom is like a father to me. His wife, margaret, has been like a second mom to Lisa, my wife, and so we've just enjoyed the godliness. And it's not the pile of books he's written I mean he's written a pile of books for sure, even one now, a second one for the Baptist Courier, courier Publishing but it's the man. He is the man he's been, the marriage they've had, the way he approaches those with whom he disagrees, that's what shaped me, because Tom can have a strong he's strongly convictional, like John MacArthur, but can disagree with you graciously, and love you and be friends with you.
Jeff:You know, as you and I've joked about before, it's like the wrestlers. You know not wrestling, that's what you do in high school wrestling, we know that's the real thing. But those guys, you know they fight but then they're friends outside the ring. Of course you know, we know what's behind that, but Tom was always just so good at loving those with whom he disagreed. And of course you and I. Another that has meant a lot to me and you as well, as Tom Schreiner at Southern Seminary, a New Testament scholar, he and Diane he was my pastor for a number of years and just the humility that I see in him, the Christ-like humility, and I remember him having a debate with NT Wright one time at ETS and just how they disagreed on the new perspective on Paul and that's, in my mind, a dangerous teaching and I think that's what Schreiner called it. But just the way he handled Dr Wright was really helpful to me and how much he loved him and how well they got along.
Travis:I think you see that in MacArthur as well.
Travis:Exactly I remember a CNN interview when MacArthur was on with Larry King. There was some discussion about Saddam Hussein. This is the time when Iraq is really not exploding no pun intended but is really blowing up. We're going after Saddam Hussein.
Travis:When George W Bush was president and Larry King asked MacArthur, do you think Saddam Hussein prays? Macarthur said sure, I'm sure he prays, but he's not praying to. Then Larry King responds well, who's he praying to? It's got to be the same God. Macarthur says no, he's not praying to the same God of the Bible, because it's not the God of our Lord and Savior, jesus Christ. And if you're not praying to that God, you're praying to nobody. It's an idol. And there's an Anglican bishop in there talking and he talks a little bit. And then Larry King responds well, he believes he's praying to God. And MacArthur has this great comeback. I've never heard a better one from him ever on any public forum, ever. He says well, larry, saddam Hussein can believe he can fly and jump off a building. That doesn't make it true, so just because you believe something doesn't necessarily make it the case.
Travis:So yeah, and there have been disagreements with MacArthur over his lordship, salvation teachings where he's responding, obviously, to Hodges and to Ryrie and those in a free grace tradition that are arguing that justification and sanctification take place at the same time fully. That, as we were discussing before we started, can lead to Wesleyan perfectionism. In fact, there are some on social media right now who are debating this. Even within 24 hours of MacArthur dying. They start going after him over his what they call a grace and works mentality. But he couldn't believe anything further from that, never, ever, taught that works are necessary for salvation but are a result of salvation, and taught that sanctification is an ongoing process, as the church has believed for 2,000 years. So yeah, watching him disagree with somebody really is a way to think. In the same way, you're talking about Schreiner and Nettles. You can disagree without being disagreeable.
Jeff:Exactly.
Travis:Interestingly, I think people often misunderstood MacArthur because they misunderstand the West, the Western US MacArthur because they misunderstand the West, the Western US, western culture is very straightforward. It's very blunt, especially Southern California. It's very direct. There's no Southernisms with them of oh hey, how are you doing? And kind of shooting the breeze for 10 minutes, no small talk. No small talk, straightforward and direct, just like you'd see in New York, in the Northeast. So it is in the West and that was MacArthur. I mean he exemplified this straightforward shoot from the hip, though he was thought out.
Travis:You know I'm not going to beat around the bush, I don't have time for that. There's too much going on in the world for me to just sit back and shoot the breeze and have small talk. We're going to be honest, to be a pastor than to be bold and direct. If I've got to pick between somebody who is touchy-feely on one side and never shares the gospel with boldness, I have to pick somebody who might offend folks every once in a while because he's bold but does share the gospel. I'm going to take the guy who's offensive every day of the week and twice on Sunday. And I think MacArthur exemplified that. People can disagree with it. That's fine, and I think MacArthur exemplified that People can disagree with it. That's fine. However, I think he faithfully shared the gospel. I think he faithfully discipled, faithfully pastored, was a faithful husband and dad for 50-plus years.
Jeff:Absolutely Well, and you mentioned some of the critiques, and certainly there is none of us is beyond critique and John MacArthur by no means are we saying he's beyond critique, or RC Sproul or Tom Nettles or anybody any of us.
Jeff:However, I think some of the tone I've heard and not really the tone, but there's been some nasty things said in the week of his death online, things that they would never say to his face or that they wouldn't say, probably in public. There's a lot of boldness behind these keyboards, these keyboard warriors who've critiqued him and it's fine to critique his ideas, maybe not the day after he's just died, but to critique the man in such a severe way. I took umbrage at that. I didn't like that Again, not because he's one of my heroes, but just there have been people who died in evangelicalism. I wasn't the terribly big fan, but still that didn't make me want to go on and and, uh and just you know kind of uh, shake them down in front of, in front of people, and uh, and usually, as you said before we got started, they use a lot of I personal pronouns and they talk a lot about themselves. It's usually about themselves.
Travis:It's interesting that you brought up earlier, uh, him being personable. I can remember, uh, I think you might've been in there, macarthur, coming to Southern. We were PhD students and it was a forum Q&A time for PhD students and with him and I remember somebody asking him may have been a PhD student or a faculty member, I can't remember simply asking him how can you be reformed and a dispensationalist, because those two things don't seem to work together and I'll never forget his answer. Were he the jerk that a lot of people tend to make him out to be, he would have just blasted the questioner and let him have it. But he looked with very open and honest and sincere look on his face and he said I just live with problems in my system.
Travis:And that was his answer, good answer. I mean, that's a great answer. Right, he's holding to what he believed. Now, as you said earlier, we would disagree with him on a number of points, but he's holding what he believed to be faithful understanding of the Bible. So you know what, if you think there are problems in your system, okay, at least you admit it, on we go. But yeah, I can think of no better example than just to say you know what, I don't know, just how it is.
Jeff:Well, in that interview I did with him and the personal conversation we had after that, he called himself a leaky dispensationalist, which kind of cracked me up. I said you know, I'd really like to call you back and do a whole interview about the leaky dispensationalism. We enjoyed a good laugh, I mean, it was just very down to earth. I appreciate that and of course, I've read a lot of his books on lordship, salvation and charismatic chaos. I remember reading that a long time ago when I was sort of struggling with some of those issues and wondering, trying to work my way through them. And so just a wonderful man. We give thanks for him, for his ministry Again, as you said here, as a faithful husband and father, and his voice will ring on. He will speak on being dead, even though, being dead still, he will speak as a writer.
Travis:Hey, let's do this before we close. Out of all of his books. What's your favorite?
Jeff:Ashamed of the Gospel? Okay, Because he does church history on a popular level really well. There he builds his case for toxic pragmatism in the American church around the downgrade controversy of Charles Spurgeon in the late 19th century, which Suzanne Spurgeon said cost her husband's life, she thought, when he battled the British Baptist Union over liberalism 19th century, which Susanne's version said cost her husband's life, she thought, when he battled the British Baptist Union over liberalism encroaching liberal theology in England at the time. And that really shaped me as to how I wanted to approach theology, write about theology, love theology and church history, because there's both theology and church history there. He did that well, so that's my favorite book. How about?
Travis:you? Oh, mine is the Gospel. According to Jesus, that's probably my second Takes apart free grace tradition. Yes, blows it out of the water with nothing but scripture. It's just beautiful.
Jeff:It's a great book. That would be number two. Those would be our top two. Yep, if I had to be on an island, I could only have one of your heart and shoes. Yeah, well, well, this is a good conversation and we can certainly continue it, but we've got to wrap up now. Thank you for listening. Be sure and give us a five-star review. Like us on all the social media platforms where you find us. Don't miss the Baptist Courier, our new and improved website, wwwbaptistcouriercom, updated daily with news and features from around South Carolina and the evangelical world. New books also coming out through Career Publishing all the time. Stay tuned for those. Stay tuned for advertisements and on social media through that, and subscribe to us on social media. We're on all the platforms, so don't miss us and like Career Conversations Well. We look forward to seeing you again in a couple of weeks. Until then, live your life to the glory of God.
Speaker 3:We're glad you joined us for Courier Conversations, where we are informing and inspiring South Carolina Baptists and beyond. For more information about these topics and more, subscribe to our e-edition or go to our website at baptistcouriercom. The Courier is located in Greenville, south Carolina. As a multimedia ministry partner of the South Carolina Baptist Convention. To comment about today's podcast, email us at conversations at baptistcouriercom. This podcast, produced by Bob Slone Audio Productions.
