Courier Conversations
This Podcast of Courier Conversations will be a conversation of topics with a variety of guests that concern, inspire and inform Christians about current events Worldwide. We hope you'll find our stories informing and encouraging in your daily walk with Christ.
Courier Conversations
Faith, Politics, and NYC's Future
What happens when religious faith directly impacts political governance? In our latest deep dive, we examine the surprising rise of Zoran Mamdani, the 33-year-old Democrat who openly identifies as both socialist and communist while now standing as the nominee for mayor of America's financial capital.
Our co-host Travis Kearns brings his extensive expertise in world religions to unpack the profound implications of Mamdani's Twelver Shiite Muslim background—the same branch that governs Iran. We explore how this specific Islamic worldview might shape governance approaches in New York City, from economic policies to social structures. Quoting directly from Karl Marx's communist principles and advocating for government-controlled businesses, Mamdani represents a fascinating case study in how personal faith influences public policy.
The conversation moves beyond simple political analysis to examine what Christians living under different governmental systems should consider. Drawing from Romans 13 and the writings of Francis Schaeffer, we discuss the biblical framework for engaging with authorities while maintaining spiritual integrity. Whether you're interested in politics, religious studies, or the intersection of worldviews, this episode offers thoughtful insights into one of America's most significant mayoral races and its potential ripple effects across the nation. Join us for this timely exploration of faith, governance, and how the two inevitably shape each other in profound ways.
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Welcome to another episode of Career Conversations. I am Jeff Robinson, your host, and with our co-host, travis Kearns, and today we're going to be talking about a topic that is a big discussion right now in the United States, and I'm not talking about the affair from the reveal at the Coldplay concert the other night. We could talk about that, but we won't because everyone else is talking about it. No, today we're going to discuss Zoran Mamdani, the 33-year-old Democrat who is a socialist and a communist openly so who is now the Democrat nominee for mayor of New York City. We want to talk about what effect the Islamic religion has on one's worldview. In a similar vein, we would talk about the Christian worldview has on our day-to-day lives and how government might be run.
Jeff:And Travis Kearns, my co-host here, is an apologist and has studied world religions exhaustively your PhD is in that and so this would be a good time for us to talk about that. So today, travis, I told you you're the expert, so I'm going to be the journalist, I'm going to interview you, we're going to talk about this, and because you have some real expertise in this topic, I believe. And so, mom Donnie, what's going to happen if Mom Donnie becomes mayor of New York. What's going to happen in New York City?
Travis:So, politically speaking, I think, were he to be elected mayor, I think the financial district becomes a ghost town pretty quickly because of his discussion of raising tax rates, specifically raising tax rates on businesses and those who make the most money. Those businesses will simply flee New York and go to free states, probably in the South or maybe in the Midwest, which we would be more than happy to welcome here in South Carolina. Bring all the businesses you would like. So I think that would happen pretty quickly. Interestingly, he just in recent weeks has been quoted as saying from each according to his ability, to each according to his need. Now, our average listener may have no idea where that comes from, but that's not original to Mamdani at all. In fact that's a direct quote from Karl Marx, who is the founder of Marxism, and that particular quote is actually the foundation for outright communism. So when Mamdani says from each according to his ability, he means we're going to tax people according to how much they make, according to how much they can be taxed, and then to each according to his need. Is basically the government trying to level the playing field? Not only level it from the outcome, but from the beginning. So socialism attempts to level it at the end. Communism attempts to level it at the beginning and the end. So I think it would be very interesting to see what would happen to what I would argue is probably the most important city in the world, especially for finance and for global trade, probably the most important city in the US outside of DC, just because of DC's political center. But I think there would be a significant political problem that would hit New York City because he's arguing for city-owned and run grocery stores, for free bus fare, for rent control, for higher taxes. The question is not are these things good or bad? The question is who's going to pay for this stuff? It would completely destroy the onus for a person to want to work, because if you can get everything free, why work? And what's the point If the government's just going to give it to me? Somebody's got to pay for it. And those who are the wealthiest in New York, I think, would very likely flee, like has been happening in New York, new Jersey and California for years, because of liberal policies that are enacted in those states by those state legislatures and by city councils in larger cities. I think there'd be a massive exodus. I think there would be a pretty significant.
Travis:Secondly, emphasis on his Islam. He is a member of the Twelver Shiite sect of Islam, which, interestingly enough, is the particular sect of Islam that oversees and runs the nation of Iran. So the Ayatollah Khomeini is a Twelver Shiite Muslim. Basically, twelver Shiites argue that there are 12 of these historic figures that they would see as kind of super imams not ayatollahs, but super imams and that there is this returning imam that they call the Mahdi M-A-H-D-I, and he will function somewhat like a messianic savior in Islam and he will come back and usher in this worldwide Umar, which is the worldwide, almost like a worldwide caliphate, where the entire religion of Islam would oversee all of the world and this Mahdi would have control of everything, which is why it's incredibly important from a US perspective that Iran not have nuclear weapons, because the fastest way for them to usher in the return of the Mahdi would be to kill everybody else and they take over the world for what's left of it anyway.
Travis:I think these sorts of ideas, religious ideas, are what drive Mamdani and what could be incredibly, incredibly frightening to see him running the largest city in the US, the largest school district in the world, overseeing massive amounts of money, massive influence over finance and his Islam would have direct play into that. I think his Islam has somewhat direct play into his socialism because, again, the purpose of to over Shiite Islam is to have this religious oversight of everything. So if they can control it centrally, that's how he wants to do it. That's socialism in a nutshell. Yeah.
Jeff:Well, it's ironic, don't you think that New York was a site, the scene of the bloodiest day, one of the bloodiest days in American history, of 9-11. Of course, there's a mosque being built there, which is the Islamic way of declaring victory in a place, and so now you have Mamdani, a Muslim, running for mayor of the city. Do you see any connection there? That's something I've been thinking about the last couple of days. I know we're talking 20, what? Five years almost apart. Was there any connection there in terms of how Islam is seeking to sort of overtake our culture and machinery?
Travis:in America. Yeah, you know, there's always concern when Muslims run for office, especially fundamentalist Muslims. Now, as a side note here, we do need to note that not all Muslims are fundamentalist terrorists. In fact, the overwhelming majority and by overwhelming I mean 95%, 96%, 97% plus or higher of Muslims in the world are not fundamentalist terrorists of Muslims in the world are not fundamentalist terrorists. In the same way that not all Christians are Jim Jones or David Koresh, not all Muslims are fundamentalist terrorists that hijack airplanes and blow up buildings. So that's an incredibly important thing to note. However, it's also interesting that there are a number of fundamentalist groups inside of Islam that do tend to lean very terroristic or are outright terroristic and take jihad, which is the unofficial sixth pillar of Islam, to mean physical war, killing people. You see this with Wahhabi Sunnis that oversee the nation of Saudi, with a man in the 1950s named Saeed Kutba who wrote a book called Milestones, sometimes translated Signposts. That book is the Bible for modern fundamentalist terrorists. In fact, that book led to the assassination of Anwar Sadat, the president of Egypt, about 30 or 40 years ago. The same thing holds true for Tuva Shiites.
Travis:There's always this concern about fundamentalist Islam taking over things, and usually the concern centers around Sharia law, the idea that we take the teachings of the Quran and the teachings of the Hadith, which are the traditions in Islam, mostly centered around Muhammad's life and practices, and we put those into law in the US. Would Mamdani go that far? There's no way to know because he's in US political speak. He's a newcomer, so we really have no idea what he would argue for or not argue for. But I think there is some legitimate concern. You know, when the Islamic mayor of London was elected a number of years ago, there was concern about Sharia law impacting London. That obviously didn't happen because lawmakers didn't allow it to take place. But you know, you have to wonder in a much more liberal city like New York, would something like that take place? If they can send AOC to the US House of Representatives, there's no telling what New Yorkers may or may not vote for, may or may not go for.
Travis:Is there concern? I think it's legitimate. If there is, is he a fundamentalist? He's part of a fundamentalist terroristic group, or let me change that and say a group that has fundamentalist terroristic tendencies, as we see just from the nation of Iran and their attacks that are nearly relentless since the revolution of the 1970s. So, yeah, I think there are problems, I think there are concerns and I think Islam plays right into it.
Jeff:What do you think the chances are? He wins, because I know Cuomo's throwing his hat back in the ring as an independent Republicans trying to get their act together to defeat him. I mean, and I think it seems that a lot of Democrats are even very concerned about the possibility that he's becoming mayor there. What's your forecast here? We love to predict sports. Let's talk about this for a minute.
Travis:Current mayor, eric Adams, has thrown his hat in as an independent.
Travis:It is very interesting to me you mentioned some Democrats have yet to speak to this. It's very interesting that probably the two of the most famous New Yorkers in US politics would be Chuck Schumer, the minority leader in the US Senate, and Hakeem Jeffries, the minority leader in the US House, neither of whom have endorsed Mom Donnie in any way. Aoc has endorsed him, bernie Sanders has endorsed him, elizabeth Warren has endorsed him. Shocker of all shockers there. Pardon me for my sarcasm, but will he be elected? It's hard to say. You know the primary only.
Travis:I read a report saying only 8% of voters voted in the primary. So though he won by a large number, he won by a large number of a small number of voters. Would they ultimately elect a guy who labels himself as a democratic socialist? I honestly have no idea. You know, voters in large cities surprise me on a regular basis, and especially younger voters in large cities, because they like free stuff. They just don't realize somebody else has to pay for it. The ones who don't like the free stuff are not going to vote for him, because they realize they're the ones that are going to have to foot the bill.
Travis:I think it's very, very difficult to predict. I really do. I hope for the sake of New York. As a Yankees fan myself, hope for the sake of New York that he's not elected, because we need a strong New York City for the US. However, again, it's hard to predict. I would have never thought that Gavin Newsom would be elected governor of California after what he did to San Francisco as mayor. So there's no way to know. There's really no way to know.
Jeff:Well, in terms of a Christian worldview excuse me, let's just say he wins and you're a Christian living in New York City. What's the Christian response to this for those who are having to live under this kind of regime?
Travis:I think the first response to this as a believer is actually fairly simple Whether he wins or not is to pray for his soul. You know, us political power is one thing. It's a whole different ballgame to say he's an unbeliever and we need to pray for him. We need to pray that there will be a strong believer or a number of believers that would be around him providentially to share the gospel with him. That God would open his eyes to see that he's following a false religion, he's following a false prophet in Muhammad, and that he needs Jesus. He needs to place his faith and trust in Christ. I think that is the first and most important thing we can do as Christians. Now. If he is elected though just secularly speaking, culturally speaking, if you're a Christian living in New York, I think your first look in Scripture has to be at Romans 13 to be subject to the government.
Travis:Francis Schaeffer wrote a lot about this in his writings and Schaeffer says as long as there's, you know these political policies are not conflicting directly with scripture then you follow them because of Romans 13. You might not like it, you might not like paying high taxes, but that's not a biblical directive. One way or another, we're to render to Caesar what is Caesar's. So I think Romans 13 plays into this. However, schaeffer also says, rightly, that if political practices or some type of bill comes through a law that directly contradicts scripture, you stand up and fight. Obviously, you don't become a terrorist or anything by that, anything even close to that. It's not. We're advocating for at all no type of physical violence, but you stand up and assert political power, you vote, you might organize rallies, you might even stand up to the government in the form of protests, whatever it may be, again, all of which would need to be peaceful, because this needs to follow a consistent biblical worldview.
Jeff:So a la Bonhoeffer in Nazi Germany yeah absolutely.
Travis:You know. Schaeffer argued that it would be perfectly acceptable to simply not follow the law and be locked up and thrown in jail If it's directly contrary to what Scripture teaches, and I would agree with him 100%. I'm not going to follow the law just because it's the law. I'm going to follow it because it coincides with what Scripture teaches. If it's in direct contradiction, then I'm going to have a problem, regardless of what nation or state or city or county I'm living in. So yeah, I think if you're a Christian in New York, the first thing Christians anywhere, the first thing is to pray for his soul, to pray that an evangelist would be around him to share the gospel with him. The second thing is really to think through what is it?
Travis:Is rent control a biblical issue? Not directly. Are city-owned and run grocery stores a biblical issue? No, not directly. Could you still live there as a Christian and go to a city-owned and run grocery store? Well, sure you could. It happens in other nations all the time. Doesn't mean I have to like it. But there's no biblical text, there's no opinions. 4 or 13 that tells us, or Hezekiah 3.17 that tells us you know what to do in these situations. So I think there's some, some Romans, Christian liberty issues that would have to be dealt with.
Jeff:Well, is it not the case that, bob Donnie, if he's a peaceful Muslim and you've indicated, you know that 95% are, thankfully are peaceful Muslims who aren't terrorists and aren't bombing, crashing airplanes into buildings and burning down things and blowing up things? But is it not true, though? Again, you've stated this far more than I have is it not true that they are being unfaithful to their sacred text? Is it not true that they are being unfaithful to their sacred text? Does not the Quran advocate clearly, in clear terms, jihad as a part of, as you know, almost a sixth pillar of Islam? And are they being like? Would it not be like us saying, well, romans is not in the Bible, or something like that, or not practicing it faithfully?
Travis:So that's a great question. There's actually debate among Muslim scholars over the meaning of jihad in the Quran and there's usually three landing points where scholars will land on this issue. Number one is that jihad is a spiritual battle and that it's personal. So it's fighting whatever inside of you that keeps you from following the Quran as best you can. So it's a personal, internal spiritual struggle. That's the first option. The second option is it's an outward spiritual struggle, not physical in any way. It's spiritual so that the Muslim who follows this particular option would be proselytizing Christians and Jews and Buddhists and Hindus as much as humanly possible, trying to get people to convert to Islam. The third option is where you get physical fighting, physical jihad so that you're ending the life of the person who is not a Muslim.
Travis:Now what's interesting even in that is that there's disagreement among scholars in that option to break out additional options so that it might be jihad against other faith traditions, big ones like the other big four world religions Christianity, judaism, hinduism, buddhism and then some would go as far as to say, no, it's jihad against even other Muslims who disagree with my particular sect, my particular flavor of Islam sect, my particular flavor of Islam.
Travis:So to some degree. This is also why you have Sunnis and Shias fighting against each other, why you have Sufis being battled all the time the three big breakdowns in Islam, why you have some Sunnis fighting against other Sunnis, why you have some Shia fighting against other Shia because of their understanding of jihad. So it's just these three big options, though with that third one really having more breakdown internally. Is it all religions? Is it specific religions? Is it just religions who proselytize regularly? So Hinduism and Buddhism would probably not be included, but obviously evangelical Christianity would. Is it other breakdowns in Islam as well? There's disagreement among scholars everywhere, among Muslim scholars, as to how jihad actually works in the Quran.
Jeff:Well, one thing's for sure we have a lot to pray about, don't we? With this potential election on the horizon, I mean it's crucial. It's crucial that it loses. Frankly, I think as Christians we need to just pray. Of course, the Lord's will be done. God is sovereign in his providence. We know that. He always knows best, even if it's something we don't understand. But it seems to me that this does show a lack of an ability of some in America to think in a worldview kind of in a comprehensive sort of way that they can kind of bifurcate certain things about a politician from his worldview, from the Muslim worldview, from his communistic, socialist worldview. And so it is, I think, a good reminder that we need to be able to think comprehensively as Christians, through every issue. Because do you think New York, the people in New York are just not thinking right? I mean, how could this happen in America? That's the. I think that's the. That's the question I keep asking myself.
Travis:You know, I had a friend in Louisville that would say all the time it's that we should always separate the art from the artist, and I just could not disagree with that more. You cannot separate the worldview holder from the worldview. The worldview drives everything. Now there are some Christian philosophers who say that worldviews are kind of going out of style. I just don't buy that at all, because worldviews really do drive everything you think, everything you are. It drives how you act, how you treat your wife, your kids, how you treat others. It really is everything. So worldviews matter and this is a vital issue that New Yorkers really need to think through as they go to the ballot box in the coming months to elect a mayor.
Jeff:Well, let's be praying about that and much, much more. That's all the time we have now. We appreciate your kind attention. Be sure and, like this episode, give us a five-star review. Follow us on all the social media platforms. Where you get your podcasts we drop in the middle of the month. We drop on the last day of the month. Also, for news and updates and features from the historic Baptist Courier, see wwwbaptistcouriercom, our website. That's updated daily. So much food for thought here. Travis, thanks for being interviewed this time and I know it's helped me a lot. So we look forward to next episode coming later in the month.
Speaker 3:We're glad you joined us for Courier Conversations, where we are informing and inspiring South Carolina Baptists and beyond. For more information about these topics and more, subscribe to our e-edition or go to our website at baptistcouriercom. The Courier is located in Greenville, south Carolina. As a multimedia ministry partner of the South Carolina Baptist Convention. To comment about today's podcast, email us at conversations at baptistcouriercom. This podcast, produced by Bob Slone Audio Productions,
