Courier Conversations
This Podcast of Courier Conversations will be a conversation of topics with a variety of guests that concern, inspire and inform Christians about current events Worldwide. We hope you'll find our stories informing and encouraging in your daily walk with Christ.
Courier Conversations
Forgiving When It Hurts
A moment of public forgiveness stunned millions and reminded us of something ancient: grace is not cheap, sentimental, or soft on justice. We sat down to unpack why forgiveness sits at the heart of the Christian gospel, how Scripture frames it, and what it demands of us when wounds feel unhealable. From 1 Corinthians 15 to Matthew 18, we trace the Bible’s logic of mercy—penal substitution, the release of personal debt, and the call to forgive “seventy times seven”—and we talk honestly about how hard that is without the Spirit’s help.
We don’t blur categories. Forgiveness and reconciliation are related but not identical. You can release someone from personal debt even if they never repent, while reconciliation requires truth, repentance, and rebuilt trust. We explore why civil consequences remain, how to live at peace “so far as it depends on you,” and what it looks like to refuse revenge while still pursuing justice. Along the way, we remember historical examples—from church shootings to missionary martyrs—where grace interrupted the cycle of vengeance and made the gospel visible to a watching world.
This conversation moves from headline moments to daily discipleship: marriages strained by betrayal, friendships bent by slander, and church conflicts that test our witness. We offer a practical, Scripture-shaped path to forgive from the heart, pray for offenders, and keep our eyes on Christ who forgave us first. If you’re wrestling with whether forgiveness is naïve or necessary, you’ll find clarity, courage, and hope here.
If this resonates, follow the show, leave a five-star review, and share this episode with someone who needs encouragement to choose grace today.
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I'm Jeff Robinson, and this is Courier Conversations, the official podcast of the Baptist Courier and Courier Publishing. My co-host Travis Kearns is with me today. Travis, it's good to have you back with us. And uh today we're talking about uh an issue, a biblical issue that Christians have known about for a long time, but now our culture is experiencing after the what has to be called the glorious memorial service of Charlie Kirk, just two days from ago from when we're recording this, in which Erica Kirk, Charlie's widow, forgave Tyler Robinson, the man who allegedly murdered her husband. And everybody's talking about that right now. So we're and we're gonna talk about that today because anytime we can talk about forgiveness, uh, which sits at the heart of the gospel of Jesus Christ, we're gonna talk about that.
Speaker 02:Yeah, it's interesting, you know. Um, the really the entire, I would argue the entire corpus of scripture is really based on this idea of forgiveness. So we don't talk about it merely because this memorial service happened right a few days ago. Uh, we talk about it because it is, as you mentioned, it is an issue that really strikes at the heart of the gospel. You know, most uh evangelism scholars will say that 1 Corinthians 15, 1 to 6 is a uh kind of a short, succinct summary of the gospel in the New Testament. And Paul says, now make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preach to you, which also you received in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preach to you, unless you believe in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance, but I also received that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures. So then in 1 Corinthians 15, 3, though the word forgiveness is not used there, Christ has to die for something. He dies for sins. And why is he doing that? He's doing that for our forgiveness, doing so on our behalf, or as theologians like to say, it's a penal substitutionary death. He's dying for us on our behalf because he's forgiving us in that death. So it's it's absolutely a biblical issue, it's something worth discussing, especially when culture's talking about it as much as they are right now.
Speaker 01:Well, and and and as you said, we're not here so much to talk about uh Charlie Kirk, uh, even though it's in the news, uh, that that is uh that tragedy is in the news right now, of course. But the service was remarkable, uh remarkable from the from its robustness. I heard in the five hours, and I I just found myself wrapped to this. Uh I heard penal substitutionary atonement mentioned, I heard the law and gospel mention, how the law drives you to the gospel. Uh, I heard the exclusivity of Christ, I heard hell, I heard heaven, over and over and over repeatedly to where what I expected to be a lot of political uh talk was actually just about four and a half hours of a testimony to his, to Charlie's Christian faith, uh to Erica's Christian faith, but but more than that, the gospel itself. So speaker after speaker, uh political officials and and and friends and workers at Turning Point USA, staff members there, just unpacked the gospel. Uh, and uh it was remarkable how often this notion of forgiveness came up, and then of course it culminated. She went next to last of course. President Trump was kind of the closing act um being president, but she forgave. And I remember sitting in our home, our our two of our kids were watching it, my wife and I watching it, and for about 10 minutes there's just total quiet. You can heard a pin drop in our house, except for sniffles from us just being just amazed at God's grace and and uh something only God can do. And and what a picture of the gospel that is, because that's something only God can do, only God can forgive us. And of course, as you said, it's all through scripture. That's really the the the upshot of scripture, isn't it? And we sing about it in a hymnity. One of my favorite hymns um of all time, and I've made them promise I'll sing this at my my funeral, is there is a fountain, and uh there's a fountain filled with blood drawn from Emmanuel's veins, and sinners plunge beneath that flood, lose all their guilty stains. I mean, because they've been forgiven. And so it it's it's it's incredible to me that the culture is talking about this. And I know that there aren't po people who don't know what to make of it, uh, but Christians they better know what to make of it because it sits to the heart of who we are. So, okay, let's let's let's talk about the the act itself, the difficulty. Okay, let's say, um, you and I, we we grew up in the deep south and we take pride in protecting our families, and as biblically we're called to protect our families, uh, on on a level, of course. But how difficult would it be if someone murdered my wife and say, God forbid it happened, or you and your wife, or one of your children, our children, how difficult would it be to say, I forgive, and mean it, because clearly, I mean, you know, we don't know her heart, but certainly, I mean, she was seemed very broken over not just what had happened to her husband, what this young man had done to his own life.
Speaker 02:Yeah. I mean, look, I I think anybody who says it would be easy is just lying. You know, Paul in Romans 7 uh says, I do the things I don't want to do, I don't do the things I want to do. Would I want to forgive? I I don't know if I'd want to forgive or not. Am I commanded to forgive? Yes, I am commanded to, but I mean, to be brutally frank, I think it'd be pretty hard to do so, if not outright impossible to do so, without the spirit moving in a miraculous divine way uh to press me to forgiveness. It would, you know, it would be very, very difficult, uh, even to say the words. You know, we we obviously can't judge anybody's heart uh or the meaning, intent behind their words, but even to to utter the words uh for this particular situation uh would be would be very difficult to say the least. Um but then it it also makes me think about the difficulty of the father forgiving us, his own creation pushing back against him after he says, have anything you want, just don't touch that tree, and we go straight for it. Um yet he continues to forgive us. Um even when he sends Christ, Christ dies on the cross for our sins, is buried, rises again three days later, and sends to the Father 40 days after. There's still incredible difficulty for me thinking about that. D.A. Carson even has a book on that, the the difficult doctrine of the love of God. I have no issue with the problem of evil. Evil is not hard, it's love, it's forgiveness, it's hard. Uh, and Carson's little book, The Difficult Doctrine of the Love of God, is is a great explanation of that. But yeah, I mean, to your uh to your question, I think it would be incredibly difficult to do so. Though we're commanded to do so, though I think we'd want to do so based on the spirit living in us. Humanly speaking, it it's as close to impossible as anything would be.
Speaker 01:And yet it is Christian living 101 because uh Jesus, uh one of this is something I've been teaching on lately, but in Matthew 18, the parable of the unforgiving sermon, Peter comes up to him and says, Well, how how often should we forgive others? And he says, Seven times, because I mean Peter's thinking, well, seven times that's a lot, man. You know, uh, maybe we want to forgive that time. And Jesus says, No, 70 times seven.
Speaker 02:And that does so just for fun, right? When I was growing up in Sunday school here in Greenville, we think, okay, I get to 490 times forgiving, and at 491, I'm going after it.
Speaker 01:Oh, that's right. And it doesn't mean that it means that the number of completeness, seven number of completeness script biblically, and you you forgive every time. And then it tells a parable of uh the uh of a servant who owes the king uh some scholars say the uh uh uh it's like 200 million dollars a debt he can ever pay. And he comes to the king, it's time to pay up. And the king says, you know, he begs the king, I'll just give me more time. I mean, of course, you know, eternity wouldn't erase this debt just about, and the king says, I forgive the debt. And then he goes out, this forgiven servant goes out and meets uh uh another man who owes him like 50 cents by comparison, just a tiny bit, and begins to choke him and beat him, and and uh and the king calls back, uh is unforgiving. The king uh calls him back and says, puts him in jail and says, You didn't you didn't understand forgiveness. And of course, the point, I mean, Jesus forgets it here, says so he says, Um, you wicked servant, the king said, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me, and should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant as I had mercy on you? And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, and he should, he should till he should pay all his debt. And he said, This so, verse 35, so also my heavenly father will do to every one of you if you do not forgive your brother from your heart. And Paul in Ephesians 4 32 says, Forgive one another as God in Christ has forgiven you. And and it's not it's forgive.
Speaker 02:And we talked about this a few minutes ago uh before we started in the Lord's Prayer. Forgive us our debts, speaking to God, as we forgive those who are in debt to us. So there's almost a sense of God will forgive us, and now I know it's not biblically accurate, but there's almost a sense there of God will forgive us to the degree that we forgive others. Exactly. So we have to be cautious in thinking about forgiveness. We ask for God's complete forgiveness from our sins, but when we go to forgive others, do we forgive them completely or only partially? Because we surely don't want God to forgive us in the same uh way that we might or might not forgive others. That would be devastating. Yeah.
Speaker 01:Yeah, that that's right. And and uh but but it's something that, and I remember my wife said this Sunday, once we kind of regained our composure, uh, she said, only God could do that. Only God could do what she just did. Uh and that's true. Only a work of God. And of course, that was central. It was central to Charlie Kirk's message because it's central to the gospel. And they made that clear. That was made clear time and time again, and has been made clear. Even, I mean, the New York Times or been, I've seen the Washington Post editorials saying this is great. And again, those outside the Christian faith don't know quite what to do with this. Uh, but it's at the heart of what we're called to do because, I mean, let's face it, we're never being more like God than we are when we're forgiving another person from the heart.
Speaker 02:Uh yeah, think about Ephesians 1:7. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our sins according to the riches of his grace. That is, as you've said time and again, that is the heart of the gospel, is the forgiveness of sins, the death of Christ for the forgiveness of sins. Yeah.
Speaker 01:Well, and we've seen this, and in other examples, this is powerful within the culture. Just um ten years ago, this past June at the AME church in Charleston, you had the uh a shooter, young man come in and and kill numerous uh I think the pastor and and murdered several members of that church on a Wednesday night. And what, four, three or four days later, they went uh in a they called a press conference and said, We're forgiven. And I mean, that was uh premeditated, uh unprovoked, uh everything you want to say about it, and yet they forgave him. Right. Um, and and of course, uh you think about uh the missionaries, a very famous missionary in the 1950s forgave the Wydoni tribe for uh his family for for killing their father and uh went and took the gospel to them uh and won uh many of that tribe to Christ. But it's hard to do, isn't it?
Speaker 02:Yeah, it is. It's uh it it may very well be in in the Christian life the most difficult thing to do. That's right. Um I've got a great friend who just within the last 18 months has had his life ruined uh by some by some folks who claim the name of Christ. And I I I mean, just again, to be brutally honest, uh as I've been talking to him through this and helping him through this, and just listening to him uh talk about this situation in his life, I kept saying, uh, and I won't say his name, but I kept saying to him, you have to want vengeance for this. You really do. You and he just kept saying, I forgive these people. Vengeance is mine, says the Lord. I want to leave vengeance to God. Uh I'll be vindicated by Christ in the end. Uh, but I will not take revenge on these people in any way, shape, or form. I won't try to do anything to them or hurt them in any way uh because I want to forgive them and I want to stand before the Lord in righteousness in this particular situation. And I just, I gotta tell you, as a as a southerner, I I have a really hard time with that. As a Christian, I have no hard time. As a Christian, I rejoice that he said that. Maybe not maybe it's not a southern thing, maybe it's a man thing, maybe it's a I'm just not as sanctified as he is, which is probably the case. But I just I had a really hard time with it because my initial reaction is I'm going after him. I'll do everything I can do to ruin their lives like they ruined his.
Speaker 01:Vengeance. Yeah. Vengeance. But again, think of Jim Elliott in 1956, uh, and uh and uh Nick Saint. Yep. They were murdered by this tribe. Yeah, uh, and Elizabeth Elliott did everything she could. And Steve Saint, they go back and they become ministers and win them to Christ. I mean, and this is a it and you know, what I'm praying, what we're all praying, is in this moment, this becomes a an agent of revival in our country. Uh, not in not in the flag waving sort of revival mean that, but in the church, that the church is again provoked to preach the pure gospel, to preach the the gospel of Jesus Christ that is the power of God to salvation. Everyone who believes repentance and faith goes, you're repentance, the word repentance over and over and over in this uh in this service. Again, I was just stunned. I kept waiting on, I mean, I was being cynical. I mean, not about Charlie and about his slap, but I mean about how the politicians would handle it. But uh, Marco Rubio, Pete Hags, one after another, they got up there and stood and quoted scripture Don uh Don uh Donald Trump Jr. Uh I I couldn't believe what he was saying. I mean, it was there's uh there was such a depth to it, but it was all all uh built around forgiveness, repentance and forgiveness. And um, yeah, I don't know. I mean, I'm 58 in my lifetime, I've never seen anything like it, but I don't know there's ever anything like it in American history in terms of a big an event like this that um reputedly attended or watched by 200 million people uh that had this clear and robust of a gospel presentation at the heart of it.
Speaker 02:Yeah, I think, you know, I think you could see, um, obviously not with the numbers because technology was not the same. Uh I think you could see some analogy between Kirk's assassination and Martin Luther King's assassination. Um I think, you know, both I think primarily were politically motivated, not primarily religiously motivated, though there was for obviously religious beliefs that drive the political beliefs for each man. However, um that's probably the closest thing we'd find in US history um with a religious motivation driving political beliefs that drove somebody then to the point of becoming an assassin. Um but yeah, again, you know, obviously the same number of people couldn't have seen Martin Luther King's funeral or anything surrounding it because there was no technology or the technology wasn't there that we have now. Um, you know, maybe the closest thing might be uh Billy Graham crusades that were going on around the U.S. that were impacting people in person and then through newspapers. Um your favorite thing. Um course, but uh, but otherwise, yeah, I I can't think of anything that would be so large um a venue uh or so large a platform for that many people. Um, you know, current thing might be a Greg Laurie, like a harvest crusade or something like that, but nothing otherwise.
Speaker 01:No, I mean it's um it had that quality to it that Billy Graham, you know, Los Angeles, uh the famous crusade, a couple of crusades he did there, the 40s and 60s, and had that quality to it. Oh uh that that I didn't, again, it took me by surprise and I just found I I couldn't tear away from it. It was, I mean, I don't I don't sit still for five hours for anything, unless it's a Georgia football game that's going into like nine overtime, but the Georgia, Georgia Tech game last year. But really, uh it but it just I couldn't pull away from it. But the the theme of forgiveness. So now let's bring this back, let's bring it down to let's bring it down to Christian living, a day in and day out living for the Christian life. Uh one of the uh perceptive questions I've been asked a couple of times as a as a pastor and and as a teacher was okay, uh we're we're we're forgive people, but what if they don't want to be forgiven? What if Tyler Robinson comes back and says, Well, I didn't do anything wrong. I just want to, you know, I don't need to be forgiven. I did the I did the world of service, I think. Uh then then what? Is he forgiven?
Speaker 02:Yeah, he's he's forgiven. Uh let's take Erica Kirk's words at face value. Um she said she forgave him, so let's just assume that that is the case. Right. Again, we didn't judge somebody's heart, but let's just take it that's what I think for the sake of discussion. So uh from her side, he is forgiven. Even if he doesn't want it, he's forgiven. Now, as as we as you and I talked about earlier, uh reconciliation is not there between the two parties, but forgiveness is there. And, you know, the example we even discussed is what if a couple's married, uh, man A and woman B, and one of the two cheats on the other one. Let's say man A cheats on his wife and marries woman C, uh, but the wife, the biblical wife, woman, uh, the first woman, decides to forgive the spouse. He may not seek forgiveness, he might not ask for it, he may not accept it or want it. That doesn't mean the couple is reconciled, but it does mean that at least in her eyes, if she's a believer and she has done her Christian duty to forgive him. So, in the same way that it's our Christian duty not to regenerate or save people, but to share the gospel. So it's our Christian duty to forgive. Uh, that doesn't mean that when I share the gospel, let's say you and I are talking, you're not a believer. If I share the gospel with and you choose not to accept, then you're not saved. I've done my duty, though, by sharing. Right. So I've shared, but you're not a believer. You've not been reconciled to Christ because you're not found in union with him. So in the same way, a forgiving spouse might forgive one who cheated. However, the two are not reconciled unless the other party seeks out that forgiveness and accepts it and then tries to move forward. The same thing would hold true then in this particular instance. If the suspected assassin does not want forgiveness, doesn't seek it, doesn't think he did anything wrong, or as you've mentioned, thinks he's done the world a favor, he's still forgiven in her eyes. He'd be forgiven in the eyes of God only if he asks. Because we're not Catholic, she's not going to ask on his behalf or go to a deceased saint on his behalf. Right. He can be forgiven if he asks on his behalf through the mediator, the one mediator, the man Christ Jesus. Otherwise, there there is no forgiveness in the eyes of God. But in her eyes, yes, he would be forgiven for her sake.
Speaker 01:That's right.
Speaker 02:So she's trying to be at peace with all men so far as it depends on her. Yep. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 01:I mean, Paul in Romans 12, 18, I think that's important. You live at peace with all men so far as it depends on you, because anticipating that not everyone's going to see the need to be reconciled and not everyone's going to be reconciled, but uh but uh she is releasing him from her debt, and that's what you're doing. So you I you owe me nothing else. I've forgiven you. You don't owe me anything. Of course, that that does that does not uh does not take away the remove the consequences from even if he comes to Tyler Robinson, we pray that you know, and and she expresses he comes to Christ, he comes, sees the the the guilt that that this has brought on him and the the heinousness of the his sins and comes to Christ in repentance and genuine faith. And and I know uh Charlie Kirk would love that, uh his wife would love that, and and we would rejoice. Uh but uh e even even if he does, there's still the consequences. There's still consequences that this to the state, uh the the the the cost you must pay for the crime to commit it, and that doesn't take that away. But forgiveness. But I do think that that what this tells us as Christians, we always have to be in a posture of forgiveness, a willingness to forgive, and a willingness to extend that forgiveness, even when it's difficult. Like you and I said, we you know, we we've been I've been brought up in a culture that really protects its own. And hey, if you you strike one of us, we're gonna strike you back, you know. But I mean Jesus said turn the other cheek, which I've always found it would take the grace of God, uh, of course, as all these things do, uh, but to forgive uh and be willing to forgive no matter what. And uh I think that's uh at the heart of Christian living, and I think that's uh for us at least the takeaway from uh the things we're the discussion we're having in the culture right now. Yeah. Well, I uh I uh we can talk about this a lot more. There's a whole lot more to say. There's so much biblical we could talk about reconciliation, all the rest, and maybe we'll revisit this, but uh right now we pray that this becomes uh a movement within the culture toward the gospel, and that this is an outpouring of the spirit uh and salvation, of course, only God can bring. Uh, but we will uh we will pick this up another time. Thank you for listening. Uh be sure and uh like us on all of the platforms that uh the social media platforms uh give us a five-star review and don't miss our daily updated news and feature site, baptistCourier.com, www.baptistcurier.com. Also, in the months ahead, we have a couple of dozen new books coming out from uh being released by Courier Publishing. In fact, I have a book on Reformation Day, October 31st, on uh on eternal security, uh perseverance of the saints. It will be or up uh part of uh the part one of a uh several book series. Uh so lots of books be on the lookout for those. Uh, BaptistCourier uh Courier Publishing.com is the website. If you want more information about that, just be on the lookout for uh some advertisings of that nature. So thank you for listening, and we'll look forward to seeing you next time on Courier Conversations.
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