Courier Conversations
This Podcast of The Baptist Courier and Courier Publishing will be a conversation of topics that Inform, Instruct, and Inspire Christians about current events Worldwide. We hope you'll find this podcast informing and encouraging in your daily walk with Christ.
Courier Conversations
Between Obergefell and the Flag
A lot of people feel the cultural ground shifting and want a faster fix. We explore a different path with Dr. Hunter Baker—one rooted in Baptist history, biblical ecclesiology, and a hard-won vision of religious liberty that helped shape the American constitutional order. We talk candidly about why Christian nationalism is attracting younger men, how state-church fusion looks powerful but weakens doctrine over time, and why a free church holds its nerve best when public pressure rises.
We trace the Baptist distinctives that matter here: believers’ baptism, congregational governance, and the conviction that coerced faith isn’t faith. That theological core leads to a civic stance—keep church and state institutionally separate so the church can preach, disciple, and, when necessary, correct the state. Along the way, we revisit what “liberalism” originally meant: liberty under law, free speech, free press, and limited government—an ecosystem where the gospel can persuade rather than be policed. We contrast Europe’s state-church legacy with America’s free-church vitality, and we wrestle with Obergefell-era conscience conflicts, where the question isn’t who wins a headline but whether the state will force Christians to commit impious acts.
Patriotism gets its due, too. Gratitude for a nation that helped defeat totalitarianism is right and good; worship of the nation is not. We draw practical lines between civic love and idolatry, clarify the two domains—sword of steel for the state, sword of the Spirit for the church—and offer a sane, principled definition of Christian nationalism so the term isn’t a catchall insult. By the end, you’ll have a clearer framework for faithful citizenship, resilient churches, and a public witness that refuses both coercion and retreat.
If this conversation helps you think more clearly about church, state, and conscience, subscribe, share the show with a friend, and leave a five-star review to help others find us.
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Welcome to Courier Conversations. I am your host, Jeff Robinson, and uh I am president and editor-in-chief of the Baptist Courier and Courier Publishing. And with me today, I have uh are you an old friend or a new friend? I'm not really sure. It doesn't matter. My friend. A couple of years. A couple of years, Dr. Hunter Baker. And Dr. Baker is provost indeed of the faculty at North Greenville University for now almost two years. Long history now in uh in academia, academia at uh Unity University. And I think that's where I first met you and learned of your writings. And uh, as I told you, we were talking earlier, such a uh uh wonderful uh reputation, your scholarship, your writing, and as personally at Southern Seminary among uh my uh my alma mater among my friends there. So welcome to the program. We are here to discuss your book, and this is the second book uh Courier Publishing has done in the uh the 1821 line, which is sort of our new line. Uh we're under contract, have 38 books under contract, but you are number two. Wow. So a little bit of history. You know, I love history, I teach history, so uh I love love dead people and dead things and old things, and that's not why you're here uh for sure. But we're here talking about your book, Post-Liberal Protestants, Baptists between Burgefell and Christian Nationalism. Nothing controversial in any of those words at all.
SPEAKER_02:That's right. Uh and I just say first off, I mean, so this is the fourth book that I've done, uh, you know, on my own anyway. And uh it was a good experience, you know. I mean, it's a good experience doing this with uh with the courier in 1821. Right. So say that right out of the gate. Um But yeah, so um and actually, if I recall, I think that you had read some things that I had written about Christian nationalism.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:Uh and you or Evans said to me, We think you're the guy to write a I began twisting your arm, I think it's quickly, to quickly write a book about this in time for the convention, right? Exactly. Uh and I, being a man who meets his deadlines, uh did in fact turn around the book uh in time for the convention. Uh and you know, so what it's about is is uh Christian nationalism, which is a a topic of particular interest or or should be to Baptists, right? Um because Baptists, Baptists are known, they're they're people of the book, uh they're known for sort of the their independent sort of uh congregational governance, that sort of thing. But they're actually also known, although I think I think modern people are less aware of this for a particular view of church and state, uh, and really for being highly dedicated to ideas of religious liberty uh and for the separation of church and state. Now, when I say the separation of church and state, I have to quickly clarify, right? Because when we say that, people think, you know, oh, you're like the ACLU, you know, or people for the American Way, or or even some Baptists, like the Old Baptist Joint Committee, who, you know, my joke is that they exist to protect America from conservative Christians, you know, that that sort of thing. But but what I mean by the separation of church and state is not, you know, secularism, you know, or something like that. What I mean is the institutional separation of church and state. So where the state is not controlling the church, you know, or setting doctrine for the church or or deciding who is going to get to go to seminary or who can be appointed uh to be a pastor or something like that. So uh Baptists have really been the strongest advocates of that point of view. Um and I think that it is terribly important. Uh I think that now, you know, Stephen Wolfe a few years ago had his book, The Case for Christian Nationalism, which is still selling, uh, which is still uh still a popular book. And um particularly a lot of the younger men uh in the Baptist church can become attracted to the ideas of Christian nationalism that are set out there, which would include things like the the church and the state being much closer together, right? You know, in fact calling for things like the Christian Prince uh, you know, to kind of take over and and uh and the reason, you know, you ask so why, right? Why why do that? And I think that it's because they look at uh the church in the era that we're in and they see you guys are losing. You're losing and you're losing and you're losing, right? You know, you losing on uh on human sexuality, losing on uh sexual ethics, losing on reproductive rights, you know, those sorts of things. Um even if we have some court victories, right? Still losing. Um and uh and so so they see that secular culture as being very aggressive, uh being very successful, and they look at uh standard issues, sort of evangelicals or sometimes Southern Baptists, and they say, you guys are like the Washington Generals playing against the Harlem Globetrotters, right? You know, they pay you to show up, they pay you to show up and you lose every night and you're happy about it. Yeah, because it's close. Exactly. And so their view is no, we need to get radical here uh and we need to do something different. So I wrote the book to try to counter that point of view.
SPEAKER_01:Well, one of the things you talk about in here, which I greatly appreciate, I mean, and I I actually wrote in my column uh in this month's career, it's kinda about to come out. The topic is why why am I a Baptist? Because uh being uh a Baptist historian, I don't think most people know why they're Baptists. They they cite John the Baptist or the Anabaptists or something, and you know, as I say, both of those are wrong. Uh and uh because we are the sons and daughters of the Reformation. But what I argue is, and and uh this is nothing new, and you you you uh allude to this in the book, Baptists are the true reformers, I believe, because we took the theology of Calvin and Luther and Zwingli and the early reformers, and then we we applied that to the doctrine of the church, of our ecclesiology, of the ecclesia, the church and began to say, no, church and state, which uh must be separated, because the best we can do if the state's making Christians are making Pharisees. Uh and so they began to make these arguments that they paid dearly for our forefathers paid for their lives. But I don't think uh today, uh in in that day it was anathema to see church and state as separate with the uh magistral reformers uh during that time, as you know. But now uh you uh I I think as you saying here, we kind of risk going back to that in some sense. And so I love what you're doing in the book, kind of calling us to be Baptists after all.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so I have about a million things I want to say. Right. Say them all in reaction to what you said. But but you know, so there is a there is a political thing that always gets wrapped up with the religious thing, right? I mean, so uh see the religion, relegare, the things that bind us together, right? And so so there is a certain irresistible logic of uh we tie together the church and the state, we bring everybody together under the same uh umbrella or canopy, right? Uh and and the state likes that. The state the state's dominant instrument is force, okay? But if you're just constantly governing people through force, that's going to grind on them. You know, they're gonna they're gonna want to rebel against that. So they would rather have some sort of a value system, some sort of a spiritual system that will kind of bring it all together, right? Uh and I talk about in the book, you know, so I I really believe and I, you know, I don't want to kick off a huge argument with our Presbyterian friends or or whoever else, but I really believe that part of the impetus behind infant baptism is is the desire to kind of have a magic moment where to be born is to enter both the religious and the political community at the same time. Right? Tying all of that to be able to do that. Very provocative and thought-provoking. I love that. So that's that's what happens, right? And you know, and Baptists are kind of sternly insisting on this idea. No, right? You know, that people have this moment where they encounter Christ and they make a decision to follow him. Um the other thing I want to say is so you you kind of referred to the Reformation. I also think about um the development of the United States and sort of the constitutional order. Uh I'm terrible at coming up with book book titles. Uh so you know, my original book, I wanted to call it Christianity, secularism, and America. And and Crossway was like, no, this is the end of secularism. You know, that was that was there. And uh and then the the book that I was doing with you guys, I started with the subtitle, uh uh Baptist Between uh Obergfell and Christian Nationalism, and Evan is like, uh, you know, and so I remember discussing that. He kind of forced me to come up with post-liberal Protestants, right? Which sounds a lot better. Uh but in any case, the uh I think about the United States, and if you look at church and state and ideas of religious liberty that we have in the United States, these are Baptist ideas, right? Baptists have been sort of the preeminent shapers of the American experiment. Uh and so you know that's that is something else that I kind of want to communicate. The reason I brought up the book titles is I, you know, I kind of want to do another one called Baptists in the American Constitutional Order. Uh that might not be a good selling title either. I'm not a publisher that might do it.
SPEAKER_01:But you can but you get the idea. Absolutely, that's right. Well, and you have a chapter. You have a chapter, a brief history of church and state from a Baptist perspective.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:And and I think it's it's it's it's quite different than what most people would think. Even the separation of church and state, the way that is framed today, like you said, people typically think if you're arguing for that, then you're a far left, uh, you're you're you're a far left uh adherent. Um but it's always been a Baptist teaching because that's how we were born out of English separatism because of our doctrine of the church, which was so radical at the time. It's hard to communicate that when I teach uh Baptist history and church history to Baptists, say this was, I mean, you you think, well, we just always had you know, if the time of John the Baptist always had uh credo baptism, we're baptism. No. In separation of church and state. No, we didn't. We had a state church, and infant baptism was absolutely tied to that. That's right by the time. And was we would argue a holdover from Roman Catholicism. Yes. Yes and so that whole matrix goes together. That's right. And again, I don't know, uh, you know, I don't think the average Baptist uh has get can has given that second thought. So one of my burdens is to have people read your book.
SPEAKER_02:I I appreciate that. And you know, the other thing is is to sort of um maybe put on my my social science hat as I think about this, right? So we we kind of argue about the doctrine. I feel like the case is pretty clear. Um but when you think sort of social scientifically about it, now in social science, we can't really run experiments on people, right? You know, we're we're limited relative to the the sort of physics people and the chemistry people and the biology people. You know, there's there are significant limits on what we can do. Now, sometimes we get lucky and there's like a natural experiment. Uh North and South Korea. I love to show people a picture of North and South Korea taken from a satellite at night. Uh, you know, North Korea is just blacked out.
SPEAKER_01:Yep.
SPEAKER_02:Uh the communists, the atheists, right? South Korea is is bright, lit up, and you know, mostly there's Presbyterians in South Korea, right? You know, so it's a it's a very striking kind of social scientific sort of example, right? Um, but the next best thing you can do is sort of observe history and what has happened. And my argument is there's certain things like communism, okay? We have in the 20th century, which you and I lived through a good chunk of it, uh we're we saw the fall of communism. You know, we sort of we sort of ran the experiment, we saw what happened, we don't really need to go back to that, right? And even and even though the Chinese call themselves communists, they are not practicing communism. No, not at all, right? More like an oligarchy, kind of a fascistic, nationalistic oligarchy. Um But the same thing I would argue is true with the state church. Uh that has been done, right? We we have seen that. Uh Western Europe uh is a grand example uh of church and state having been united. And now, if I were to ask you what is the most secular place on earth, Western Europe. Right? The place where we united the church and the state is now the most secular place on earth. But the United States, where the Baptist view really won out, right? And and I argue even with the Catholics, right? Even the Catholics came far closer to the Bapt to the Baptist in the United States, you know, through the thinking of people like John Courtney Murray uh and others, and they began to see the value, especially in totalitarian 20th century, of the separation of church and state, the free church, right, instead of one that's controlled by some gigantic uh government. And so I think that we have seen the state church thing. I think that we know that it's not good for the church, and that the free church is more vital, right? Uh the church in the United States is far more vital than the church in Europe. Uh that, you know, effectively there is no pro-life movement, for example, like in England or something like that. And look at England while we're talking about it, while we're talking about Christian nationalism, I would argue that England actually still has Christian nationalism, right? Yeah. They have a state church. That's what the Anglican church is. You know, when the when the Prince and the Princess Marry or something like that, you get the Archbishop of Canterbury running the ceremony, you know, front and center and all that. Uh when I was in London recently, we went to uh St. Paul's Cathedral, a giant monument to Christian nationalism in many ways, when you look at it. And what has that produced in terms of the vitality of the church? Not much.
SPEAKER_01:No. No, in fact, the church there is probably as pathetic or more so spiritually impotent than the church was on the dawn of the Reformation.
SPEAKER_02:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Uh in in very similar circumstance, uh in terms of just um no theology, no no no awareness of theology. Uh and uh it's uh that is a sad state of affairs that uh we don't want to find ourselves in. Well, let's talk for a minute about Christian nationalism. Obviously, that just the mention of that uh makes the hair stand up on some people's necks. And uh and uh how I would consider myself a patriotic person. My father fought in World War II. I've had you know, I've had a lot of a lot of military family, my wife and I both are love the love our country. I hope I hope in the way I should as a Christian. I would I guess a Christian patriot might be how to describe myself, but what is the difference between that and a Christian nationalist? And how do you define it? You define it in the book. Talk about that for just a minute.
SPEAKER_02:So I really associate Christian nationalism with this idea of unity of the church and state. Uh you know, I think that I think that a uh it is very healthy to think about the state as uh having a reporting relationship to God, right? I mean that that is healthy and right. Uh and I think that sometimes we make a bit of an idol even of consensus of the governed, right? You know, uh for sure. Tocqueville talks about this that uh that Americans have a terrible tendency to think that, well, if in them if I'm in the majority, then I'm righteous, right? Uh which which would be corrected by thinking about, look, God ordained the state just like he's ordained the church, right? It has a task that it is supposed to do. It's a less elevated task than the church's task, but it has this critically important task that it has to carry out. Um but when I think about Christian nationalism, I really am thinking about sort of this legal, juridical type of a thing. And and I was I was scared off of that a long time ago. I mean, when I when I wrote the end of secularism, I remember I was I was studying the Church of Sweden. Um and the Church of Sweden is like a dog on a leash, right? And even when, you know, for the longest time, for the longest time, the sort of the social democrats or or whoever sort of constitutes the left in Sweden, um, they said we're going to become the majority and we're going to get rid of the church, right? Well, when they became the majority, they're like, you know what, we can control this church.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, that's right. Don't don't get rid of it.
SPEAKER_02:This is useful. That's right, right? You know, and that's what they do. You know, and they and they don't care about doctrine. They say, well, it's a folk church, right? It's really, it's sort of democratically accountable. Uh, and they control it. It is critical, I think, for the church to retain its independence. Uh, even if we think we will look victorious, uh, if we if we have the imprimature of the state somehow, it is way too dangerous. We have seen it over and over again. Power becomes the ultimate decider, uh, and and people will follow the state, the money that the state provides, the position that the state provides, and the church will be um corrupted.
SPEAKER_01:That's right. Well, one of the things I've taught tried to teach about in my years as a pastor is uh the the notion of the separate domains, the two domains that God has ordained government to to uh to uh inhibit one domain and and wield the sword of steel. Romans 13, 1 to 7, very clearly called government to do that. And and and and uh and the church is to wield the sword of the spirit and preach for the conversion of sinners. And this is a teaching that's prevalent in a lot of the early Baptists, and even in Luther, you see this, of course, there's no absolutely no consistency. I mean, they they they they know it's right. That's why um it's funny. Tom Nettles, my PhD supervisor at Southern Seminary, said if Jonathan Edwards lived 10 more years, he'd have been a Baptist. Because you start to reflect on these things, and of course, he's in a very different church situation here uh in in the colonies at the time. But uh but it it's it's uh it's uh it's something that I think is foreign to Baptists today. When they first hear it, they say, well, that's right. Intuitively that's right, the two domains, but I've never really heard that before.
SPEAKER_02:That's right. Yeah, and I think I I really believe, you know, we could kind of get in the weeds about Luther, but but I think that Luther was affected by the immediacies of his time. Right. You know, I mean, first of all, uh there's a sense in which Luther is almost like an astronaut. I mean, and and no question. He is he is going so far. This is uncharted territory in the recovery gospel. And and there are people who want to kill him, you know, and and there there are wars breaking out, you know. So he kind of has to deal with the situation as it is, right? And he has only known the Catholic Church before that, yeah, right? So it's not surprising that that what he ends up with, you know, in terms of the the German church, the Lutheran Church, is something that is still, you know, fairly close uh to what's to what's happening with Catholicism. Uh but you're right about the things that he says, right? You know, his view of the state is sort of rightly ordered, right? He he has kind of a correct view of what the state should do. You know, don't try to rule souls with steel, right? And don't try to rule bodies with letters, you know, that that sort of thing.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Well, Calvin, it's very similar in Calvin in the Institutes, he writes about this, but Calvin, uh they're busy recovering the gospel and running for their lives.
unknown:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:And when you're running for your lives and you recover the gospel, you've done a good work. And of course they did that. They called, they said the gospel is the language Calvin used in the institutes, it's gone into eclipse, you know, behind hidden behind the all the uh the the the the unbiblical doctrines and uh superstitions as they put it of the Roman Catholic Church. And uh so I think if they'd lived another 50 years, they would have been they might have been Baptist studio to to live on Thomas's.
SPEAKER_02:Sort of what has happened anyway. I mean, uh so when I talk about Baptists in the American constitutional order, uh or when I t I spend a lot of time in the book talking about liberalism, what is what is liberalism, right?
SPEAKER_01:This yeah, I appreciate that about the book.
SPEAKER_02:This idea, you know, these ideas kind of together of of democracy and and freedom of speech and freedom of the press, and you know, all limited government, uh religious liberty, the government doesn't own you, you know, these these sorts of things all sort of cohere together. And my argument is that Baptists are as responsible for that as anybody else. Uh and really, you know, I talk about how Francis Fukiyama, the great political scientist, he looks at the world after after the Soviets' fall, and he basically says, this, you know, liberalism, this is kind of this is kind of where we're gonna be henceforth, right? It's turned out to be a failed prophecy, it seems, because a lot of things are happening uh on the margins, right and left. But when he says that, whether he means to or not, he's giving great credit to the Baptists who are highly responsible for liberalism, right? It's sort of the dominant philosophy of the West.
SPEAKER_01:Well, and I appreciate how you you separate the term liberalism, you define that the classical in its classical sense, in its classical notation, not when we think when you hear the term liberalism today, you think of AOC or left-wing. Uh yeah, you think of Hillary Clinton or something like that, you know what I mean, or Fox News is but no liber the the the liberal, I mean the liberal uh the the liberal democracy, that's what that's what we're we have in mind. That's a classical tradition, something we cherish, that again, I think has been lost in the terminology and sort of uh spoiled as it were. It's kind of like the term gay.
SPEAKER_02:Well, and it it it helps it helps to think about so where does the word liberal, how does where does that derive from? And the answer is liberty. Exactly. That's what I'm saying. Uh and and if and if we think about the liberal arts, you know, people are I I can get upset when people are so dismissive of the liberal arts, right? Uh but the liberal arts are the arts of liberty. The liberal arts are the education for a citizen, not a subject, right? Not somebody who will be governed and constantly acted upon, but someone who will act. That's right. Someone who will act in freedom. And so the liberal arts, you know, these ideas of knowing things like, you know, reading and writing and thinking and figuring, uh these are the things that you need to know in order to educate yourself and govern yourself.
SPEAKER_01:No, that that that's right. So I I appreciate that that clarification in there. So let me ask you this. What a very practical question. Um, how much how much patriotism is too much patriotism, do you think? What's what what's the line? I mean, like I said, I I love our country and I'm a I appreciate what God has done. I do think we're exceptional in some sense and from and from the the from the perspective of common grace, yeah that God has shed his grace on thee. In that sense, uh we've we've received exceptional grace, maybe. Well, but what do you think? Where what what how would you what would you say too much patriotism is Christian nationalism or starts to bleed over into that? So I think that's a probably a question a lot of people ask.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. So so I do think that a lot of people just think that and and and the way they use it, right? I mean Christian nationalism, oh, you just mean a conservative Christian, right? I mean, and and that is not what Christian nationalism is. Uh understand it. You know, I've I've tried to give a pretty strong definition of it so people can understand it. Um but with regard to patriotism, you're always in kind of a kind of a fraught territory because certainly there are people who will be tempted to put the flag a president, you know, the founders, the constitution above God. Right? You know, that that they sort of that for them, you know, something like the the Star Spangled Banner is sort of the summit of their existence. Um what I what I think is appropriate is to be very thankful for this country. This country has a tragic history in certain senses, right? You know, we're well aware of that. Um but at the same time, I resist the efforts to constantly try and pull it down and to constantly try to teach people that it's an evil country. Right. Uh you know, I think about the Declaration of Independence. The Declaration of Independence, you know, all men are created equal, right? You know, and that they're they're endowed with these rights by God. Uh clearly, even as they're writing that, clearly, you know, these these ideals are not realized in the country in which they live. But progressively and over time, we have seen these ideas take root and with very beneficial effects. Uh but the other thing that I want to say is that as we think about the story of the United States, I think that we don't spend nearly enough time thinking about the twentieth century. And in the twentieth century, you think about the incredible power of uh Nazism, uh fascism, you know, of Italy and and Japan, and then the the terrifying uh you know massive state communism uh of the Soviet Union, uh of of China and other places. The United States, I would argue, played the decisive role in defeating totalitarianism in the 20th century. And I think that everybody I I get emotional about it, I think that everybody on the planet owes the United States a debt for that. Uh so that's worth being patriotic about, I think.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean uh my dad was there, part of the hunter first airborne, the whole seen uh if you've seen um uh what's the movie the HBO series a few years ago, the um um um Easy Company. Yeah uh what I'm I'm totally blanking. I can't remember the show either.
SPEAKER_02:The one they made after that was the Pacific.
SPEAKER_01:Right. Yeah, the um I I'm totally blanking it. But my dad was part of the Fox Company, and so that's sort of the story. So it means you know, it means that means a lot to me, and I I agree with you. I think and I think you know, we go back to the fourth century, Augustine in uh city of God, where you know he says at the end of the day, the Christian is a citizen of two cities, a city of God and the city of man. Those are driven by two loves. Uh uh city of man is driven by love to self, which have to be really careful because it leads over into idolatry if we emphasize that too much, but we're ultimately the citizens of the city of God, which is driven by love to God and love to neighbor. And I think that helps us hopefully, you know, to to recover that teaching. I write and and uh and emphasize that a lot. I have my own ministry because that Augustinianism is shaped to me, and even of course, City of God is one of the greatest uh political uh tone that's been ever been written. And but 1300 pages, you may want to get the Cliff's notes. I tend I tend to read the uh sort of the edited excerpts.
SPEAKER_02:Uh yeah. But um but yes, I mean one of the things that I really like from Augustine there is the idea that Christians can be they can be great citizens. Trevor Burrus, Jr. That's the whole point of the city of the United States. Just he says, and this is this is a religious liberty kind of point. Just don't compel them to commit impious acts, right? And of course, we've seen that in our country, you know, after Obergafel. So so the title, right? You know, between Christian nationalism and Obergafel, uh was the thing where people start to say, we're going to force Christians to commit impieties, right? You know, that's where you get the wedding cakes and you know things like that.
SPEAKER_01:Well, there's no lack of conversation we can have uh on this topic. So we may have to do part two of this. Whatever you like. Today we are out of time, right? Uh but uh get the book. Uh the book has done really well. We've uh critically, it's been uh it's been a home run to use we love baseball, so we're gonna use that term, but uh critically it's done really well. I know uh even some of the seminary had reached out to us and wanted copies of this. Uh it's excellent. So post-liberal Protestants, Baptists between Obergefell and Christian Nationalism, Dr. Hunter Baker. Will there be a volume two? Well, we may talk about that when we're done here. Uh you've already given me another book idea for you. I think we were talking about Christian nationalism in our uh after we did the first interview I did with you on this show. Yeah. And I said, I want you to write about it. I want you to write us a book about that. You gave me the definition. That's the definition I think. I think that's right. Yeah. That's a sane definition.
SPEAKER_02:You gave me the assignment. It's funny. It's funny. I have told people I hate I hate pitching a book. I wish people would just assign me a book and that's what you did. You assigned me a book and I wrote it.
SPEAKER_01:I'm I'm thrilled and I'm I'm very I'm I'm more than happy with the outcome and I know it's gonna br uh uh gonna help a lot of people, a lot of Baptists to think through uh their duty of being Baptist again as it relates to issues of church and state and politics. Well, uh thank you for tuning in. Again, we will we will revisit this again, maybe perhaps sooner than later. There's so much we can talk about in the culture just in the past couple of weeks with Charlie Kirk and all that stuff, but we will save that for another time. But thank you for listening. Uh don't uh don't miss uh our uh updated website. We have a lot of other uh other things, uh balls in the air here at the Baptist Courier. Uh BaptistCourier.com, our website with news and features, is updated daily, uh sometimes several times a day. We're hoping to get to several times a day, five or six days a week eventually. We're headed toward that. Uh and as I said earlier, we have about 36 books coming out over the next couple of years, including a couple of series, one related to Baptist history, Baptist biographies, and other things. So uh be sure and uh be on the lookout for that on our uh our social media. Uh subscribe to our social media. We are on all the platforms, uh, and give us a five-star review and tune in to this show, download it, and like us and all that stuff. So, Dr. Baker, always a pleasure.
SPEAKER_02:Thanks again.
SPEAKER_00:We're glad you joined us for Courier Conversations, where we are informing and inspiring South Carolina Baptists and beyond. For more information about these topics and more, subscribe to our e edition or go to our website at BaptistCourier.com. The Courier is located in Greenville, South Carolina as a multimedia ministry partner of the South Carolina Baptist Convention. To comment about today's podcast, email us at conversations at BaptistCourier.com. This podcast produced by Bob Sloan Audio Productions.
