Courier Conversations
This Podcast of The Baptist Courier and Courier Publishing will be a conversation of topics that Inform, Instruct, and Inspire Christians about current events Worldwide. We hope you'll find this podcast informing and encouraging in your daily walk with Christ.
Courier Conversations
Deacons, Done Right
A lot of churches have deacons. Far fewer have a clear, biblical vision for what deacons actually do. We sit down with Dr. Tony Wolfe—Executive Director-Treasurer for the South Carolina Baptist Convention and first author in our Courier Publishing 1821 line—to reframe the deacon’s office around four essentials that change how a church lives: lead by example, serve the people, support the pastor and staff, and protect the peace.
Tony shares how a simple, practical training he created in 2017 grew into a globally used resource and now a revised, expanded book designed for any church size. We explore Acts 6 as the prototype for deacons, why unity in John 17 is mission-critical, and how 1 Timothy 3 should be read as character in motion, not a one-time checklist. We also get honest about the “deacon board” problem—how corporate language formed corporate habits—and why shifting to “deacon body” helps restore an organic, relational, service-first culture.
You’ll hear step-by-step counsel for pastors navigating de facto elder-deacons, including why changing documents without changing culture backfires, how to win buy‑in through relationships, and what a year of meaningful deacon training can look like in monthly meetings or an annual retreat. We get practical on conflict too: deacons as early responders who defuse tensions before they explode, applying Matthew 18 with wisdom, and keeping the congregation’s peace as a precious, fragile asset that amplifies witness.
Along the way, Tony highlights robust appendices—encouraging your pastor, passing the torch, caring for widows and orphans, and a thoughtful treatment of deacons and deaconesses. If you’re ready to move from managing meetings to mobilizing servants, this conversation gives you language, frameworks, and next steps you can use this month.
If this helped you, follow the show, share it with a fellow leader, and leave a quick review so more churches can find it. Then tell us: which of the four essentials will you focus on first?
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Welcome to Career Conversations, the podcast of the Baptist Courier and Career Publishing. I'm Jeff Robinson, your host, and with me today is the first author, the first book to be published in our new 1821 line, which is blowing and going right now. He also happens to be uh fully employed as our uh as our executive uh uh treasurer uh of the South Carolina Baptist Convention, Tony Wolf, Executive Director of Treasurer. Let me get your full uh let me get your full uh uh title in there, Dr. Tony Wolf. Uh Tony, welcome to Courier Conversations.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Jeff, and thank you for that distinction, that honor of being the first author. I really I don't reflect on that enough, uh, but I'm I'm honored. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Well, we started a brand new uh Courier Publishing is not new, but the 1821 line is new uh as of about a year and a half ago. And the first book to roll off our press, we're very proud of this, a uh just a beautiful book and a well-written book and a book that's selling uh better than any of the book we have right now, and that is a deacon on purpose for Biblical Essentials. This is if you are a pastor and you have deacons, and if you're a Southern Baptist, you have deacons, uh, you want this book. Uh to train up your uh your your deacons, uh, to teach them what a biblical deacon is, it's all right here. But this is not a new book, right, Tony? Tell us about this. Uh this we we were re- we republished this book. We've done a lot of, added some things to it, done a lot of work on it. Talk a little bit about the origins of the book and and how it came to be a career publishing title.
Speaker 2:Sure. So uh before I worked for South Carolina Baptist, I worked for another state convention, uh obviously in a different state. And when I got there, uh I realized that there was just a deficit of good, solid, easily understandable training resources for deacons. Put something together real quick, ran it through publication. It was short uh and simple, which was the whole point. And uh it it was really, really, I feel like it was very helpful. Uh it became uh circulated really globally. I know that sounds weird, but I kept getting texts and pictures from Malaysia and uh from you know Belize and and uh Japan and everywhere these this resource was being used. Um and but it really wasn't packaged to be a published resource. It was really packaged just to be a resource to our churches, so had some barriers to it. Uh so when uh I moved over to South Carolina about two and a half years ago, uh I realized this this resource really needed to be updated uh and packaged in a way that would be more available to a wider variety of churches. So updated, expanded, and uh Jeff and Evan there at the Courier uh publishing uh offered to publish the second edition. So this is the second edition. Again, it's revised and expanded, uh has the same content, uh, but I think it's just a little more accessible uh in a wider variety of contexts.
Speaker 1:Well, as soon as you and I, I think you and I talked about this book over lunch one day when we for one of our first lunches, and it was in my mind at that point to publish this book, republish this book, let's say, because for some reason there's not a lot of resources uh for deacons. Uh we as Southern Baptists believe there are two offices in the New Testament in the local church, and that's elders, pastors, uh, and deacons. Uh but oddly enough, there's lots and lots of material on training elders, uh, raising up elders, uh switching your polity to uh plurality of elders, all those things, but very little, precious little, uh aimed at deacons. Why do you think that's the case?
Speaker 2:I really don't know why. Uh I mean, obviously the the elder pastor is the lead leader in the church, and this book acknowledges that. And I think we just focused so much of our attention on leadership. I'm not even saying that's wrong. I I think we just didn't really consider it. There were some books uh over the course of the past century that were written for deacons, but really with about a 20 to 30 year gap between them. Uh so there was one written in the 20s, and then there was one written by Robert Naylor uh in the 50s, who was the president of Southwestern Seminary at the time. And then uh really the next one that that churches were able to use for training purposes was published by Lifeway in uh the early 2000s. And those were the only, really, really the only resources that were available to train deacons. And so uh that's what happened in 2017 when I first uh you know started training deacons. I just couldn't find something that was practical, stayed at the high level, allowed deacons to be the expert in their context instead of me developing some kind of program uh to say, hey, if you implement these things, then God will bless your church. That's not my plan. I don't know. Uh but uh the point is here here are four big picture things. And if you just if you're always asking myself, am I doing these four things? And here's some ideas for how to apply them in your context that may or may not be relevant for you. That resource just didn't exist. Now, the good news is, Jeff, since then, since 2017, there have been about seven or eight more deacon resources published, and all of them are very helpful. And I think this book um I think it carves out a special place in that canon of literature for deacon training. Uh, we can talk about that if you want to, but uh, I I am thankful that now there's a little more availability of resources to help with deacon training.
Speaker 1:Do you think that we if in churches that have uh both deacons and elders are deacons and of course a lead pastor, all Southern Baptist church have at least that, uh, do you think we tend to we tend to think of the deacons as kind of the junior varsity team among leaders in the church? And so that could be why we don't focus as much on training our deacons?
Speaker 2:It's possible. Um, yeah, and I definitely think that is true in some contexts. You know, the pastor is the leader and the deacons this uh, you know, B team. But um I think there there are some other in I think inherent complications to the office itself. Like for instance, the office of pastor is a leadership position, it's a leader, uh, but the office of deacon is a service-oriented position. And usually the right kinds of deacons don't enter into that office so that they can be recognized and be put on the stage. They they want to work behind the scenes, and rightfully so. Uh so some of it is just, you know, out of sight, out of mind, and they're doing the the normal everyday things. Um, and then you've got a weird generational shift between the church growth movement of the 70s, 80s, 90s, early 2000s back to what we're experiencing now, which I think is a more biblically uh uh justifiable ecclesiology in in some ways. Uh of course we've got to be careful not to swing the pendulum all the way to the other side. But uh now, you know, uh the the the church growth model and movement produced a business-like deacon board, uh, and really that actually came out of the um out of the second industrial revolution, too. And then after post-war America, you know, these are businessmen, best business practices, and so they run run the church like a business. And there's so much wrong with that statement right there that they would run the church or anybody would run the church, or especially that it would be run like a business, whoever runs it. Uh so now I I think we're we're returning to this more uh biblically justifiable uh office as uh an office of service. Now that doesn't mean it shouldn't be organized, it doesn't mean it shouldn't be educated, and that's the point of these resources like a deacon on purpose. Uh but I think some of it is uh it's corrective, Jeff, if that makes sense. Like we've for so long we perpetuated honestly a pretty unbiblical model of the deacon office, and now it's these resources are popping up because we're realizing, wow, that really needs to be corrected. So I think there's there's several, you know, as usually is true when you uh look into history and Baptist history, there is a a matrix of uh of concepts and reasons that that bring us to a certain moment in time. And I definitely think all of those belong inside that matrix that brings us to this moment where deacon training resources like this one are valuable.
Speaker 1:Well, now the uh the out the skeleton or the outline of the book is very easy to follow. I like this, uh I like this approach. You tease out four biblical essentials. Talk a little bit about those, uh each essential and why it's an essential.
Speaker 2:Sure, yeah. And I all of this is born really from uh what you see in Acts 6, uh, verses 1 through 7. Again, Acts' historical narrative. So we're not going to the book of Acts for a checkbox of things to do. Uh, but generally speaking, God was so pleased to bless the early church, uh, really, I think, in some ways, because of what happened in the the opening verses of Acts 6. But some things, these are some things you see them doing. The deacons are leading by example in Acts 6, or these seven men who are selected from among the congregation, which I believe is the prototype for the office of deacon. Um, so they are they're they're leading by example. That's the first purpose of a deacon. Uh, it's not like I imagine uh in the early church when um you know the all the congregation is there and they they elect these seven men and everybody's thinking, oh, thank God, none of us ever have to serve widows. That's not what they're thinking. It's not it's not like nobody else has their responsibility, it's that they needed some a group of people who are qualified, capable, and willing who could lead this effort. They were leading by example. The truth is everybody needs to serve widows and orphans, but they're leading by example. And so really, they just become that picture on the front of the puzzle box. That doesn't mean they have everything together. Sometimes their picture is pixelated. But if a church member needs to think, what does it look like for me to be a good church member while I'm also being a growing disciple and a good uh spouse and a good parent and a good employee or employer? How do I put all these pieces together in my life that God has granted real life people from your community who you can look to and say, wow, these guys, they don't have it all together. It's not perfect, but they're like the picture on the front of the puzzle back. Oh, that's generally what it looks like to be a good servant in the church and uh to make sure I'm following Christ and walking with him closely in all these other areas of my life. So leading by example is just pretty much being a good Christian. I know you said it's simple, it really is. Uh being being a deacon, really before anything else, is just being a good Christian. You're leading by example. The second thing is to serve the people. The deacons serve. Um they they might lead by example, but uh, how do they uh what is the example in which they lead? It's the example of service, servitude. So they're washing the feet of Christ's bride while he's preparing her for a great wedding banquet that's yet to come. Uh the deacon office is an office of service. The the apostles asked the congregation to select from among them seven men of um of wisdom and full of the Holy Spirit, whom we can appoint to this duty. And that duty was diaconale, it was serving tables. Um, so lead by example, serve the people, uh, support the pastor and staff. Uh the pastor uh or pastors are lead leaders in the church. That is designed and ordained by God. It is good and healthy for the church. Um, and the deacons come alongside as uh a right arm of service, uh implementers, service-oriented, service-minded officers in the church. So their job is not to be at odds with the pastor or the pastoral leadership, but to come alongside the pastor and pastoral leadership. Uh and so sometimes deacons feel like their role is to, in the old model, is to sometimes protect the church from the pastor. And you really just don't see that in scripture anywhere. So uh, you know, you you support the pastor. Uh and then uh the finally, the final one is to keep the peace. Uh deacons are conflict resolvers, not conflict instigators, uh, all throughout scripture. Uh in fact, even in Acts 6, the reason that they were appointed is because uh as the number of disciples were increasing in Jerusalem, there arose a complaint. There arose a complaint. So that was the problem, conflict. What was the solution? Deacons. So deacons are instituted not just to serve tables, but to resolve conflict. And so the book goes through just some really practical ways, Matthew 18. You know, how do you how do you go about resolving conflict in the congregation? Uh, those are the four purposes, lead by example, serve the people, support the pastor and staff, and protect the peace. Those are just, if you just you just always have those things in mind. Am I doing these things? Then I I think you'll be more prepared to be a good, solid, biblical, and helpful deacon in your church.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that that's an excellent outlaw. The journalist in me loves that because you just it just uh each step builds on the one before and uh just makes it really clear. And I appreciate that. Of course, you go into the character of deacons and what what their their purpose is at the end, and you know, it's like an elder, an eldership, the qualifications first Timothy 3 are uh are are largely character, uh character qualifications, character issues, godliness. There to be godly men, uh really not a lot different than elders, right? They're uh elders are able to teach, but uh but they're they're supposed to be men of of high character.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. And I I think a lot of times we look at that text in 1 Timothy 3 and and we we're so used to hearing the word qualifications, so we ask ourselves, are they qualified? Is this man qualified? And I don't want to uh diminish that. I mean, there is an aspect of qualification to it, but when you say qualification, it's like you check, okay, he checks this box, it checks that box, checks that box, and then you feel no sense of obligation to return to that list because qualified, that's a that's a past tense thing. When really I think what Paul was telling Timothy is uh this is about character. The man's character, this should be evident in his character, and I believe it should be increasing. All of these good, positive, godly qualities should be yours and increasing. Um, I think that was Paul's intention with Timothy. Uh sometimes I heard one of our Southern Baptist leaders a long time ago say this, but he has since forgotten, so I get all the credit for it. Uh when he said, uh, he said something like, you know, when I read through 1 Timothy 3 and the qualifications or character traits, he said, sometimes I read that and think, who can live up to this? Like who can possibly check all these boxes? I mean, who who holds the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience 100% of the time? You know, who manages his household well by the standard of Christ and his church? I mean, who who meets, who can actually meet these qualifications? Uh and I think it's a high bar. And then, you know, two days later I'll go back and read through it. And it's like Paul's asking Timothy, hey, can you find somebody who's not a drunk and who loves the Bible and knows the gospel and has been a Christian for longer than a couple of years? You know, like it's not that complicated, like who actually loves their wife and is devoted to them. So I go back and forth between this high standard, which I really think is there, and also let's not make it too complicated or more than what scripture actually says. So find somebody that these character traits are uh are indicative of, and hopefully that those character traits are growing uh with intensity as they walk more and more closely with Jesus and serve the body more faithfully over the years.
Speaker 1:Amen. Well, I I agree with that. I had a man tell me once, I was a pastor that on a given day, if I if I lacked any of those qualities in verses one to seven of 1 Timothy 3, that I was no longer qualified for pastoral ministry. And I thought, well, I'm disqualified every day. Every day. If that's the case now, of course, there are serious issues that if you that do disqualify men, we're not, we both know that, but uh, do I exemplify all of that every single day? Boy, I don't I don't think so. And uh but but it you're right, it is a standard, and it is what we're to be seeking, uh that holiness without which no one will see the Lord, that uh Hebrews 12, 14 talks about. Um, so that that that's really helpful. Now, you prefer deacon body, not deacon board, and I think most people say deacon board because that's sort of the default language. Talk about that a little bit. I thought I was I'm intrigued by that.
Speaker 2:Sure. And I, you know, my goal is not to get lost in arguments over semantics. I tell everybody my train and call whatever you want to call it. Um, but it's the uh language creates culture, and what you say eventually becomes what you do and who you are. I think Proverbs 18 attests to that. The power of life and death is in the tongue, and those who love it eat its fruit. So what you're saying over time eventually becomes characteristic of who you are and what you love. Um and and I think when we say board, we think uh we think business model and corporate. And that that is a business corporate word. In fact, uh Jeff, you and I both work for boards, boards of trustees, and South Carolina Baptists want it to be that way. We I mean, you need me to answer to a board. Amen. Um but I'm not, yeah, but I'm not a church, and you're not a church. Uh so the church model is different. Um, and all the way throughout scripture, you see the language of body. And I think body language is more appropriate of everything that goes on in the church because it's rhythmic and organic and relational. Uh, there's motion to it and movement and not some stagnant organizational chart uh where somebody comes in and makes decisions for other people to follow. So those two words, uh, you know, whether or not whether or not you use them is really not what I'm asking. They but they have connotation. Right. And those connotations in our culture, when you say something's a board, a deacon board is the group of men that gather once a month and make decisions for other people to follow. They're administrative, they're cold, they're calculating, uh, and that's what a board does. Um, but the deacon body is that group of people who is constantly in motion. They're organic, they're rhythmic, they're relational, uh, and they have the needs and the desires of the congregation and the community in mind. Uh so I think I think there's something to the terminology. Again, I'm not saying you have to call it this or that, right? But I am saying that what you say uh, you know, sometimes affects how you think and who you become.
Speaker 1:Well, I brought that up because I found that particularly helpful and corrective for my own stuff. I'll just, as default, I've been a Southern Baptist all my life, I'll talk about the deacon board. But I think it is uh it is more like a body and function, should ideally function that way. So I think that's a I just I found that really helpful. That's why I wanted you to talk a little bit about that because there's so much in here uh in the book. I mean, I think uh uh you know churches that use this to train their deacons uh are going to find a lot of uh a lot of good rich food. Do you think how how often do churches think we need to train our deacons? Do you think that's rare? Is that becoming more prevalent as you travel around? What do you what do you think about that?
Speaker 2:I think the vast majority, and this is anecdotal, of course, but the vast majority of Baptist churches never think about training the deacons. It's never been on their list or on their radar. Uh now I do think it's becoming more popular, and some of it, again, is that corrective, that generational corrective. Um and so yeah, I see it more and more often. I think personally I recommend, you know, go through this resource or another one uh, you know, one once a year in a retreat setting or in an associational setting and work through it. Now you can do it monthly by chapter, and that's the way this one's designed. There actually Courier has uh has published some some five to seven minute introductory videos for each session, which is super helpful. So if you're just going through it as a church, you know, go carve out the first 20 minutes of your monthly deacons meeting, watch the video and then talk about the chapter, and then do it again the next month. Um, and that's helpful. Uh and then I'd say, you know, the next year, maybe pick a different resource. And maybe it's not a deacon training resource, maybe it's doctrinal, maybe it's walking through the Baptist Faith Message or something, whatever it is. Just pick something to constantly sharpen uh deacons as servant leaders in the church. And then every two or three years, pull this out again and go through it again. Uh the the idea is you walk away from a deacon on purpose with a million ideas, a million. I mean, there are a hundred things we could do better, hopefully. Um, if not, do some more digging because we all need to have some things we're working on. So you walk away with a hundred good ideas. Uh just pick one, just one to work on for six or eight months or 12 months and get better at this. And and then, you know, the next year or the next, pick another one and get better at it, you know, and then constantly train new deacons as they come on.
Speaker 1:Well, what another another uh one of your your four essentials I found intriguing and interesting, and and I really like this too, is the the last one, protect the peace. And when you were talking about this, I snickered to myself because, you know, there's all these cliches about Baptists, Southern Baptists multiply by dividing. And I actually know in my home state uh of a church uh in my home uh county a few years ago that had a war on a on a during a Wednesday night members' meeting, if you will, between the deacon body and the pastor. Uh that what you were saying there, I actually remember, and in which uh law enforcement literally had to be called. Now that's a of course a an absurd example, but it uh and thankfully that's the only example like that I know. But but typically you don't think of the deacons, sadly, as fulfilling that role of being protectors of the peace and those who promote peace uh in the church, do you?
Speaker 2:No, uh I mean, well, I do, but uh that's because I I choose to. Um, so yeah, across uh the United States and really the globe now, as I've trained on using this resource, um I think usually the the old model is that deacons feel like they protect the church. And what that means to each individual deacon is different because for a lot of them they're protecting their traditions or they're protecting the finances or they're protecting, you know, some position in the church or some volunteer or their their children or grandchildren and their ability to contribute to or what they think is important to them. So they're protecting the church. Um that's not really what you see in scripture. They're not protectors of the church, they're they are protectors of the peace. Uh and so so when I talk about in the book, um I go to John 17 when Jesus uh really, and you'll have to read the book for the whole thing, but when Jesus directly ties, I think, directly ties the unity of a congregation with the effectiveness of her gospel witness. And so I say that, you know, other than the gospel itself, unity and peace in the church is the most valuable possession you can have. And anything that is precious is also delicate. And so thank God that he gave us an entire office of people held by multiple people in the church who can protect the peace. And again, I'll point you right back to Acts 6, where he says that these men who are to be appointed from among you are to be full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom. And you have to ask yourself, why is it important that they're full of the Holy Spirit and wisdom if they're just serving tables? Well, it's not just serving tables, it's solving conflict. That's what they're doing, they're resolving conflict. And so if that's the thing, if the the occasion for deacons first came about because there arose a complaint, there's conflict in the church, then Jeff, we should think how antithetical it is to the office of deacon, to scripture, that a deacon would ever be part of the conflict instead of helping resolve conflict.
Speaker 1:That's right. That's right. Well, uh a related, I think a related issue. Uh let's say a young pastor calls you and says, Tony, I uh I've I've just become the pastor of First Baptist, whatever, South Carolina. And uh my my deacons are de facto elders. Uh they serve as elders, which you and I both know that's a uh that that that's uh very common in uh Southern Baptist churches. But I think increasingly more we're we're seeing moves to pluralities uh of elders uh and deacons uh in a church. What advice would you give them? You've you've been you've been around uh you've been in ministry for a long time, uh, for a man as young as you are.
Speaker 2:I'll take that as long as I get it. That's right. There you go.
Speaker 1:That's your compliment. No truth. No, you've you've been at you know, been a lot of local churches, uh not just this states, but also and other places where you've served. What uh what advice would you give that young pastor to to help him uh maybe either transition to a more biblical, healthy model or to uh uh help the deacons work through that?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, first of all, I'd say that um uh the hypothetical First Baptist Church somewhere in South Carolina, I've been to plenty of them.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:They are many. Uh so I would say if you are that pastor, young or aged, uh new or experienced, and you walk into that scenario, first of all, know that you're not a you're not the only one. You you know, you're not like Elijah after slaying all the prophets of Baal, and then you're like, I'm the only one left. You know, that's just not true. Uh there are others, not not for the purpose of commiserating with, but uh people, you know, this is this is what's happening in the churches. And so what you're facing is not extraordinary. It's it's really part of the normal right now, as we swing back toward a more biblical model of deaconing. Uh so first of all, know that uh that there's not a greener pasture somewhere. So getting out of this context is not gonna get you out of the trouble and out of the difficulty. Uh, the second thing I would say is to take your time. Um you have this model of healthy biblical ecclesiology and leadership in your mind, and you should, uh, but that doesn't mean it's gonna get there tomorrow. Uh and in fact, if you change all of the documents, here's where the biggest problem is people go and they'll change the documents and they'll say, uh, you know, they'll add it in their bylaws that deacons do not make decisions regarding finances or decisions regarding business means or whatever, and they'll they'll make all the all the changes in the documents. But if you change the documents without changing the people's understanding of scripture and the culture, then you will lose. You'll lose and the church will lose because they'll just dig in deeper. You know, it's they just go right back to it and even more strongly. So uh it takes time. You don't you don't have to get them there tomorrow. It can take years, it probably will take years uh for the deacons to understand that this is not an administrative role, it's a service role. Um, now you can do that one-on-one. The best thing you do is go sit down in that guy's living room and have a cup of coffee with him, you know, once a week for the next two or three years, get to know him and his family, minister to him and his children, um, care about what he cares about and become his friend. And then he's a lot more likely to listen to you and to see you as his pastor. Um, so you know, coming in with an axe to grind or an axe to swing is just not a good idea in any context. Uh take time, you know, you're you're there to shepherd the people who are there while you're also leading them to reach the people who are not. Uh both of those things go together, or neither of them will go at all. So you don't run over people on your way out the door to get the lost. You shepherd them two at the same time. So uh, and then, you know, when it's time to put uh you need your church grows, you need more deacons to serve them, um, then really take an opportunity to walk through this book. Ask them what do you think? What do you agree with? What do you disagree with? Show me from scripture, open the conversation, make it a long game. We're not trying to decide tomorrow whether or not the deacons will look at the finances. But what we are trying to do is open doors of conversation and have a long-lasting conversation and just tell them, we're not making decisions right now. We're just having conversation. And if we can't have conversation about this around our closed table as a group of men that the church trusts, we will not have this conversation in a healthy way outside of this room either. So take your time. Uh, you know, don't move too fast, understand you're not the only one, build actual relationships with the people that God has called you to love and shepherd, and then slowly lead them, slowly, emphasis on slowly, slowly lead them into a healthy understanding of the biblical role of deacon. Uh, and then I think the Holy Spirit, well, I've seen it, I've been part of it in a church I pastored. I think the Holy Spirit will convince them and unify you into a more healthy and more biblical future context in this time.
Speaker 1:I think that that is excellent counsel. And by the way, you you said this just to remind our listeners, Tony has served in denominational positions, but he has also served as a pastor uh for for many years. And so you you are certain by no means are you an armchair quarterback. You've had to you've had to do this. And anyone who's been a Southern Baptist pastor knows that uh you know it doesn't it didn't take long to get pretty experienced uh in in these matters. So uh you've you've served in for a long, long time in in both of those roles, but uh as a pastor as well. Um how do you convince I've I've pastored a church in Kentucky and I pastored a church in Alabama, and the deacons in Kentucky, they couldn't, when we we when we offered deacon training, they loved it. They couldn't wait to be trained. Other church, uh an older church, and they said, Why do we need training? We know how to deak. It took a little convincing uh and a little patience. How would you how would you encourage pastors who maybe they do they you know they read your book, like you said, you've you've produced this as an excellent uh resource for that purpose. How how do they need to convince their deacons that you know this is a good thing? Uh training.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Well, some of it is just the nature of leadership. You're called to lead, so lead. Leaders lead is what leaders do. Uh of course that doesn't mean mow over people, but you know, if if the Lord puts something on your heart and that's the direction, you need to find a way to lead toward that. So be a leader. Um, and secondly, you know, it it could be not necessarily that there's something your deacons need to learn, but maybe it's something you need to understand. You and maybe you can say, when they say, I don't need, I know how to be a deacon, I've been deacon 45 years, I don't need training. Then you can say, Yeah, but I do. I I need us to walk through this together so that I understand what you're passionate about, where you're coming from, and what we mean when we say deacon body or deacon board, what we mean when we say, you know, um a widow's list, and what we mean, and how we can, I need help. So this is me helping, you know, uh inviting you in to us doing this together as a team and and having a more common language and a more comprehensive understanding of what exactly I'm doing as a pastor and you're doing as a deacon. So my my invitation isn't. To correct you. My invitation is for us to go through this together. I mean, maybe I need to be corrected. Um so you know, level the playing field and have a little humidity, uh humility. And then thirdly, also uh there's a lot uh that hesitance sometimes comes when um when you have somebody who's been a deacon for a long time. If you're adding new deacons in, then usually they're gonna be very the older deacons are gonna be very open to the idea of a comprehensive training with everybody. Let's do it together as a team. So it's an opportunity, it's a door in. Uh so if you're adding new deacons, then I mean wide open door for training. Because the old ones are gonna say, I wish I had training, you know. Well, and now here we are. Uh and the third way I would say is think about your association. Uh associations can put on deacon trainings and they invite multiple churches into the room. And so it's not like you're attacking your one church because they're wrong. You're a part of a larger fellowship of churches in the area, and they're coming to fellowship with these other deacons to learn one another. You're on the same team anyway. And so uh it's not just that we are being trained, it's that all of us are being trained as part of the fellowship. You know, come and sharpen your skills as a deacon, meet and hang out with other deacons from area churches as well. We're all in this together anyway, uh, and that kind of lessens the burden a little bit too.
Speaker 1:Amen. Good again, wise, wise counsel. Uh, you uh the the book concludes with a very meaty appendix and deals with some excellent practical issues, a 10 ways to practi uh practical ways to encourage your pastor, uh passing the torch, uh, standing the gap for the orphan and the widow. I mean, this really is a very complete, uh, a complete work, and this is why I was so happy for us to publish this and happy for you to be our leadoff hitter uh for our 1821 series, which now we we're up to I think 38 books under contract, which is uh only the Lord could do that. I'm I'm I'm uh I'm amazed. And so you're working on some other stuff for us. You're not you're not finished here yet, uh Tony. You know that, so uh you know don't be to keep stay loose in the bullpen. But this is an excellent book. I I highly recommend this. You deal with some issues in here, like deacons versus deaconesses. We'll let you read the book to see uh where we come out on that, but I think you have an extremely helpful discussion on that. That uh that's uh some uh other books fear to tread there. Uh we shouldn't. Uh we uh the Bible's always uh the Bible's always pertinent, and these issues are always uh they they they come up again and again and again and again. Uh so the book is The Deacon on Purpose for Biblical Essentials by Dr. Tony Wolf. And Tony, uh, I appreciate you being on with us, and uh I pray that this continues to get uh uh wide reading, and and I know it will help deacons and churches, local churches in South Carolina and beyond. Uh I know the demand, and uh it's uh we're very encouraged by that. So thanks, brother, for your work and keep up the good work uh with SC Baptist. We're really thankful. Tony and I came in about the same time. We both moved here the same summer, and so uh I'm I'm glad we're on the same team, and uh I'm happy to happy to work with Tony as one of their ministry partners down there, and uh, you're doing a great job. And I hear that everywhere I go, so thank you for your hard work, brother.
Speaker 2:Well, then it must be true, right? Thank you, Jeff. Thank you for the honor of being published by you guys and for joining me on the podcast today. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:So we will definitely do this again for sure. All right. Well, uh let's say catch a deacon on purpose and other titles from uh courier publishing. Uh also don't miss our website, updated daily, uh baptistCourier.com with news and features and uh and and articles that uh encourage healthy Christians and healthy churches and healthy pastors and much, much more. And uh stay tuned for uh some news in the new year. I think we're gonna be expanding career conversations a little, maybe uh to go uh monthly, we're or rather weekly. There are a couple times a week. We got some exciting things going on there, so don't miss that. Be sure to give us a five-star review. Catch us on all the social media platforms because we're on all of it, and we'll see you next time on Courier Conversations.
Speaker:We're glad you joined us for Courier Conversations, where we are informing and inspiring South Carolina Baptists and beyond. For more information about these topics and more, subscribe to our e edition or go to our website at BaptistCourier.com. The Courier is located in Greenville, South Carolina as a multimedia ministry partner of the South Carolina Baptist Convention. To comment about today's podcast, email us at conversations at BaptistCourier.com. This podcast produced by Bob Slone Audio Productions.
