Courier Conversations
This Podcast of The Baptist Courier and Courier Publishing will be a conversation of topics that Inform, Instruct, and Inspire Christians about current events Worldwide. We hope you'll find this podcast informing and encouraging in your daily walk with Christ.
Courier Conversations
Should We Sing That in Church?
How do songs shape what we believe? In this episode, we explore how theologically-rich, Christ-centered songs form Scripture, strengthen faith, and guide churches toward gospel-centered worship. From Holy, Holy, Holy to A Mighty Fortress Is Our God, we unpack why certain hymns endure and how they disciple believers long after Sunday morning.
We also address a key question for pastors and worship leaders: Should we sing songs from sources with questionable theology? We discuss stewardship and why a song’s origins matter.
You’ll hear trusted recommendations—from the Gettys and Sovereign Grace to Indelible Grace and modern Scripture songs—plus a simple grid for evaluating lyrics and building a stronger, more intentional song list.
If you care about worship that matures believers and magnifies Christ, listen in, share with your worship team, and join the conversation.
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Welcome to this episode of Courier Conversations. I am Jeff Robinson, and with me is my co-host, Travis Kearns. And today, since it is the season for singing, of course, in evangelical circles, every season is a season for singing.
Travis:Yeah, that's every Sunday.
Jeff:That's right. We're going to be talking about hymnity and specifically hymnity in general. Also issues that come with hymnity, such as should we sing solid hymns, theologically sound hymns written by churches and groups that are anything but theologically sound?
Travis:Or theologically poor hymns written by maybe solid writers.
Jeff:Would we have those in the SBC?
Travis:Oh, I'm sure there are. One or two.
Jeff:Well, we have the in the old hymnal, I think the 1950s version of the Baptist hymnal, we have God of Sun in Outer Space. God of Earth and Outer God of Earth in Outer Space.
Travis:God of rockets firing bright is the second John song or something.
Jeff:It's really strange. But we have that. So uh uh today, again, this uh month's uh Baptist Career Magazine is on hymnody. And we ask a number of uh Baptist leaders and and folks you do know, folks you don't know, what their favorite hymn uh is and why. And so uh that's our topic for today. Travis, what is your favorite hymn? Do you can you name a favorite hymn, or is that like saying which one of my children is my favorite of the four I have?
Travis:Yeah, no well that that children question is easy for me because I only have one, so my one is my favorite, yeah. Um yes, I do have a favorite hymn. Um my favorite hymn by far is holy, holy, holy. Um I think for a number of reasons. One, because in the hymnals, the Baptist hymnal editions I grew up with, it was number one. It was number one. Which is interesting because in the 2000s, when the hymnal was edited and updated, it uh editors moved it from number one to number two, and number one was a responsive reading. And I remember there being an outcry in SBC Life because now Holy Holy Holy has been moved. I don't know if that was because they were worried about the theology being moved to the second um second page, or if they were worried about the change happening, probably more of the change happening, but nonetheless, yeah. Holy, holy, holy. Um I can think of a few others. Uh All Creatures of Our God and King uh is a phenomenal. Crown him with many crowns, over a thousand tongues to sing. I mean, I can just come up with probably ten or fifteen of them right here off the top of my head. Uh but yeah, what about you? Do you have a favorite hymn?
Jeff:I do. In fact, I wrote my column about this this month. But if I had to be pressed on one, I think it would be a mighty fortress is our God. If you've listened to this podcast or you've read anything I've written, uh you probably know how my great love for the reformers and the uh the theology of the reformation, and uh argued that we are, as Southern Baptist sons of the Reformation, and uh uh I think confessionally that's easily easy to prove. But I love a mighty fortress is our God. Now, based on Psalm 46, uh Luther wrote that during the time when the Black Plague was uh killing hundreds of thousands of people in Europe. There's a great line in there though this world with devil filled should threaten to undo us, we will not fear for God has willed his truth to triumph through us. But I love a mighty fortress is our God. We usually only sing it once or twice a year, maybe, and which is sad because I think we should sing that often.
Travis:Yeah. Of course, being a Southern Seminary alum, I often have to throw in Soldiers of Christ and Truth Arrayed, which is not one that's ever really sung in Southern Baptist churches, but one that was written by Southern Baptist churchmen uh and written as the Southern Seminary hymn, which has, I think, maybe some of the greatest lyrics I had never heard until getting to Louisville in 2001. So that's always a a good one to throw in as well.
Jeff:Yeah, I love that one. Um Walter Johnson uh wrote a really nice piece in this uh month, the upcoming edition of The Courier, on uh There's a Fountain. And uh that was my mother's favorite hymn, and it's one of my favorite hymns because of the I think the tune and the text go so well together. Uh it's very moving. I I I have when I do the Lord's Supper as a pastor, I will invariably will I will quote, There is a fountain filled with blood, drawn from Emmanuel's veins, and sinners plunge beneath that flood, lose all their guilty stains. Well, there's such a glorious line uh because it's such a glorious truth. And I think it is well with my soul, uh, that third verse. Um, my sin, oh the bliss of this glorious thought, my sin, not in part, but the whole. But the whole is nailed to the cross and I bear it no more. And what a what a glorious line that Horatio Spofford's uh hymn. Uh and uh boy, there's just so many good ones. So that's why it's hard to boil it down to one. But if I had to be pressed, I think it would be the uh the battle hymn of the Reformation, a mighty fortress is our God.
Travis:Yeah, yeah, it's a good one. It's um it's one interestingly that if you visit the uh tabernacle on Temple Square in Salt Lake City, uh usually called the Mormon Tabernacle, uh, when the sister missionaries do they do an acoustic demonstration, that's the song that's played before the acoustic demonstration starts, which I always find interesting because were Luther alive to hear that, he would probably either call them all dogs, because that's what he'd like to do to anybody he disagreed with, uh, but he'd probably have a run-in with them somewhere in a bar, I would guess. Uh but yeah, that song is uh is very, very well known around Salt Lake City because it's used in uh Temple Square. Yeah. Yeah.
Jeff:As a kind of lead up to what we want to talk about with regard to hymns and um whose hymns we should be singing, whose we shouldn't be singing, um what what do you think makes and this isn't we have an article on this month's career, what makes a good Christian hymn? How would we judge that? What should we be singing in church?
Travis:So I would argue one, that it's based uh uh completely in scripture, uh following 2 Timothy 3, 16 and 17. If scripture is sufficient, then it is sufficient. Sufficient for all things, not just for some things. So it's based solely in Scripture. Um I think obviously um with the Psalms being the hymnal for ancient Israel, that's a great place, um uh a great divinely inspired place to look for how our song should be written. Um I I will also say, uh, and this may make some people uncomfortable, but it is what it is, um, I would also argue that our hymns should be more focused on third person he or second person royal, second person you than first person I mean my. But it it seems that in recent years, hymn lyrics have gone from third person to first person. I need this, I need that, and not in a psalmist type of way that I'm a sinner and I need to be saved, but uh I want health, I want well, not necessarily in a in a prosperity gospel way, but I want Jesus to fix this, I want Jesus to fix that. It's almost like he's the the fix-all for my problems, and that's why I should follow him, not for the sake of salvation from eternal damnation because of my sin, but because I just want him to fix things for me. Um see, I think rooted in scripture, uh using the Psalms as uh a good standard, a good foundation, a good example. Um but you know I think just the the simple fact of being rooted in scripture, I keep coming back to that, but I think that's where I that's where I would argue everything needs to come. I know Jeff, you and I agree, um I think for the most part on the regulative principle that scripture regulates our worship. That's right. Um I would apply that and expand it to our lives as a whole, I think you would as well. Yeah. Um the scripture is not just only for faith, not just for doctrinal issues, but also for practice, not just in the church, but outside the church. So if again, if 2 Timothy 3, 16 and 17 is true, and it is, then that regulates everything we do, including the writing of music used to worship Christ and the choice of music used to worship Christ, including especially the lyrics. Now there are some Christians who would argue, one is a very good friend of mine, who would argue that certain tempos and types of music and certain chords are not spiritually driven and are actually demonically driven. Um I'm not gonna go that far because we just don't have that in the text. Right. But the words especially is what I'm gonna look at. Is it grounded in scripture? Yeah.
Jeff:Yeah, I think I I wrote about this in in my column, Grace and Truth, this month, um, in for December, and that that was where I began. Is it must sing um the the doctrines of scripture? Um and and I I I talk about pronouns in there, you know, pronouns are big discussion these days, uh, but not not in the way we mean. Uh and I think of uh one of my favorite hymns, and I mentioned this in there is when I survey the wondrous cross, the great uh the Isaac the Wikes hymn, 1709, beautiful hymn. And this is this is how you use the first person, the personal pronouns, I think. When I survey the wondrous cross, you're looking at the cross on which the Prince of Glory died, then my riches gain I count as but loss. To me, that's the way you talk about me. Right. That's the place of I we're sinners, saved by God's grace, and pour contempt on all my pride. And and you know, there's just you know, these these hymns are just matchless in their beauty. Forbid it, Lord, that I should boast, save in the death of Christ my God, all the vain things that charm me most, I sacrifice them to his blood. And so you're in in this these personal pronouns are get set within the context of the cross and what is being done for sinners, and it's clear that I'm a sinner. So I I agree with you on that. I think that's I think that's a good point because often we sing about what we're gonna do for God. Uh there's a song, and I I'm being uh the grammarian in me is really irritated by I just came to worship you. It's like praying the I just we just prayers. Hey, we just came to, we just, we just, don't be sloppy, cut that out. Right, right, right. We could we come to worship you. You know, of course, of course we do. Uh but uh I think this is um I think the old hymns are a good model for how we write the new hymns. And a lot of you see this in Keith and Kristen Getty's music and the hymns they're writing, uh, in Christ alone is a good example. Uh Sovereign Grace, my my son, uh son Jeffrey, who writes for the Baptist Courier, lives in Louisville, Kentucky, and he is a member of Sovereign Grace Church and benefits from their worship every every uh every week. And uh we sang one of their songs in worship yesterday called the song, a newer song called Sing. It's about how the world should sing praises to its maker. And it's a beautiful, just an amazing, it's kind of an upbeat. If you listen to it going down the road, you'll be driving fast by the time you get uh through with it. I think I love I love the hymn. It's very uh it's very Christ-centered, God-centered. And I think that's it. It's Christ-centered. Um we can we can sing a lot of the praise songs that came out, especially in the 90s when I was uh starting to wrestle with ministry, were I felt like man-centered. In fact, I I again write about this. I went to a uh one time when we were at Southern Seminary, you and I there together. Um I took Chip Stam, and we remember Chip, Chip is with the church. I didn't for a class called the Worshiping Church. I took the same class, and Chip is a what Chip in many ways shaped the liturgy in a lot of the younger churches now, including mine. And uh wonderful man of God is the music minister of my church, uh church we attended there, Clifton Baptist Church. Uh, but uh Chip uh Chip was very very thoughtful and brought the uh the Gaddies. The Getty's actually sang at his funeral. Yep. And uh but brought Sovereign Grace's music in there and introduced us to a lot of those things that we sing in our churches now that I think is uh that we just take for granted. I mean, uh one of the songs um I mean the whole Sovereign Grace catalog is is is fantastic. And I'm glad Southern Baptists sit to see them embrace it. Um I'm trying to think um oh I I I'm I'm I'm totally blanking again on the song that of the that um that I like so much of theirs that um I can hear it in my head and I can't recall the lyrics right now.
Travis:But yeah, unfortunately we can't hear it banging around up in the middle.
Jeff:Yeah, I know. That's uh my mind is a short book. Sadly, you don't have any uh behold our God, that sort of thing. Oh, yeah. You know, who has felt the oceans in his hands from those early from those 404142 chapters of Isaiah. That's just such a God-centered song. Those are good models, I think, for how we ought to be singing in church.
Travis:All right, so we've talked about Luther, we've talked about Isaac Watts, we've talked about the Geddies, um Sovereign Grace guys. It um some of the Bob Coughlin. Yeah, Coughlin. Some of the um I think some of the really good contemporary artists, contemporary in the last 10 to 15, 20 years, who have taken hymns and kind of reawakened them. Indelible Grace um is a great uh music group that does some of that. Shane and Shane. Shane and Shane. They do, especially their adaptations of the Psalms are phenomenal. Um newer hymn writers like Matt Boswell and Matt Papa, those those two guys working at Boswell was one of our students. Well, all of a sudden, that's right. So great guys. But what what do we do with um you mentioned this at the outset, what do we do with those theologically poor writers or even autheological writers that we think might write okay lyrics? Um should we sing those?
Jeff:No. I don't think we ever sing sub-biblical lyrics in the church for any reason. But I also think that the the heart behind it's important. Yeah. Behind the life, let's say the life and the theology behind um the hymns.
Travis:Let's bring up um let's bring up a specific one. Let's talk about Bethel. Bethel has a lot of music. Um Bethel Church in Reading, California has a lot of music that that probably a lot of Baptist churches in the Southern Baptist Convention use. Um and as our um very able producer Christian mentioned before we came in, um, what if Planned Parenthood wrote a theologically correct song? Would you sing it? And I think the answer to that is unequivocally no. Right. One, because you can't separate the art from the artist. Uh there's always intent and intentionality behind any piece of art, including lyrics that are written for a song. But two, every time your church displays something on a screen or uses it in written form, you have to uh show your CCLI permit. That's right. Which means money is going from you through the purchasing of that license to these organizations. And I don't I don't think that Southern Baptists, at least the overwhelming majority of us, want to support a church that left a little girl dead, thinking they could raise her from the dead for days. That's right. Or that go to the graves of deceased Christian leaders and do something Bethel calls grave sucking, where they try to get the anointing from that person from the grave and stand in the grave and try to literally sniff out the anointing. Um, I think, Jeff, I think your answer is is dead on. No, we should not sing this stuff. And I think there are three big ones, especially that we use in Baptist life right now, and that's Bethel, Hillsong, and Elevation are the three that really elevation is right just up the road here. Yeah, and uh three I mean they have a huge impact in contemporary Christian music. And it's unfortunate to me because the overwhelming majority of it is just junk. It has too much first person in a positive way, right? Not in a not in a David writing the Psalms, Romans 3.23, I am a sinner, I am lost, uh, even an amazing grace kind of way. I once was lost, but now I'm found. That's a passive uh mean not working. You're being found. You're being found, yeah. So it's not a it's not a, hey God, do something for me today and I'll worship you, but if you don't tomorrow, sorry, the gig's up. Right. Uh kind of thing. So yeah, you know, Ephesians 5 comes to mind, uh speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing, making melody with your heart to the Lord, always giving thanks for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ to God, even the Father, and be subject to one another in the fear of Christ. If we're speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, um and singing those to each other in the context of corporate worship, and if scripture is our guide, then we should be doing so through scripture. I'm not arguing that we only use the Psalms. Right. But we should be using Scripture. There are Christians who do. Yeah, there are plenty of Christians who do, and that's not a heaven or hell thing. It's just a it's a third level inside the Sunday school class kind of discussion. Exactly. Uh but there are plenty of Christians who don't do that, but who are arguing or or uh singing rather from just scripturally based solid music. I I challenged a class one time I was teaching. When you go to church on Sunday, don't sing the songs, stop and read the lyrics. Just read the words. Because when you're singing it, it's something you're actively declaring. And if you wouldn't want to go and actively declare something that's heresy, then read the words and make sure what you're saying is scripturally accurate, biblically, theologically rich. But I think a lot of our people just stand up and say I remember growing up at at uh my home church at Taylor's First Baptist, every single Sunday, same time of the service, we'd sing the doxology. And as soon as the organ hit the first few notes, people prop up pop up like prairie dogs, you stand up, it's just what you do. And you you probably couldn't quote the lyrics outside of hearing that first line of the organ kick up, but when you think about the words, praise God to whom all blessings flow, or from whom all blessings flow, praise him, all creatures here below, praise him above ye heavenly hosts, praise him, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. There is some really deep, meaningful theology there. And I would venture to say that probably a lot of our churches today, I don't think the majority, but a lot of them wouldn't want not that they don't want that type of hymnity use, but they want something more emotional, less theological, because they think that's what people want. People don't want that. They want solid meat from scripture, they don't want just garbagey dark water that looks like milk. I don't even call it milk, um, cloudy water. They want something good. Yeah.
Jeff:Absolutely. Well, it is the the case is as our our dear brother in R.C. Stroll so well put it, everyone's a theologian. And you can say uh you can tell me all day I'm not a theologian. We're writing these hymns as non-theologians, but you're making theological statements. Yeah. And behind these statements there's a theology. And what I've argued um ad nauseum here in my two almost three years of the Baptist career is theology is supremely important. Almost above everything else. And I don't mean as a a formal study that you sit, you know, you're an egghead and an ivory tower sitting with your nose in a book. I don't mean that so much you do you do need to read and learn it. But uh i is the theology of the song and the theology even that stands behind the song, is it biblical? Yep. Is it good? Is it uh uh has it stood the test of time? Is this orthodox? Uh, you know, does it square with the early councils and and uh which who sought to tease out what who Christ was, his person and his work? And of course, you know, all those things were biblical. Uh the early creeds and confessions of faith, but uh uh of primary importance is is it biblical? Do do we sing about justification by faith as justification by faith? Do we sing about God as sovereign and holy and just and good? And like you, the the when we started the conversation, you're talking about holy, holy, holy. That's a we I remember Southern Semine, we sang that a lot in chapel, and intentionally so.
Travis:Right.
Jeff:Because God is holy, and we are not. But I would argue that behind these with the hillsongs and the and and the Bethels and uh the the the um the this church up the road here in church, the elevation, thank you. Um there's a theology behind it, and there's theologians behind it, and they're not solid theologians. Right. And uh they really don't care much about theology and being solid, they really care, like you said, about appealing to the emotions um and and and things like that. And so, yeah, I think we need to uh take a uh hard look. Pastors, you need to take a hard look at what is being sung in your churches and who's writing it and what's behind it.
Travis:Yeah, and you have to ask yourself when it comes to the music ministry of the church, do you want quantity or do you want quality? I think any pastor out there who's worth his weight and salt would say, I want quality, not quantity. I would rather have twenty solid on fire disciples than twenty thousand surface level Christmas and Easter kind of quote unquote Christians. I think the same thing holds true for your music, that you allow as a pastor that you allow to be used in the service. If you want quantity, then sing emotions. Because people will come for that. I'm not calling it this as a direct analogy, but cults have been built on this, war religions have been built on this by the tens of millions of people on emotions and on quantity and on a lack of theological depth. If you want quality, then you have to sit down and be willing to do the hard work to read through lyrics, to think through lyrics, and to see who's writing this material. Because again, as Christian pointed out before we started, if Planned Parenthood wrote him a song of worship, would you sing in your church? Absolutely not. There'd be no question. No question. So why then do we look to they they are they don't even claim to be believers. Why would we look to people who claim to be believers who have some very questionable, heterodox, if not outright heretical beliefs, and we give money to them. We wouldn't give money to Planned Parenthood. But there's really not a big qualitative difference here.
Jeff:No, no, that's right. I mean, uh we we wouldn't we we we have to be discerning in these things, and that's not been a a uh a strong suit for the church for evangelicals in a in a long time. Um one of the things I I wrote about this again in my column, so I'm just giving the whole thing away here. Um but read it anyway. Um the Crossway has just published a new hymnal, uh, and I don't work for them, and we don't get any money. This is something they're a and uh a a very dear friend of mine and ours here, but the Sing Hymnal. And Keith Getty is one of the editors, and they put together just a phenomenal array of uh about almost a thousand pages of contemporary and classic hymns. And you can get this hymnal and meditate on the hymns, which I do often uh as a devotional practice. And what I love about this, there's responsive readings, there's catechetical questions, there's uh confessional items, things like that for devotional purposes. And uh in the back, there's a uh there's a section called hymn stories. And behind the hymns, there's often a story like It Is Well with My Soul, Horatio Spofford's daughter, drowned or two daughters who drowned at sea not long before he wrote that hymn. And it tells these hymn stories, and it's just it's wonderful. It's just about a paragraph long, it'll tell the author and uh the circumstances uh if they're known of the of the writing of the hymn and even the meaning. And so it's really helpful. So I commend this to our listeners, uh, and there's they've been very discriminating as far as to what they've allowed in, but it's it's all good stuff. It's rich, it's I mean, it's several hundred, you know, seven, eight, nine hundred hymns in here. And so uh that that's something I I commend uh to our listeners.
Travis:Yeah, when the 91 Baptist Seminal was done, there was actually a book published called The Handbook the Baptist Seminal, and it did that, but over a page or so per hymn. It was fascinating to read some of that stuff.
Jeff:Yeah, that that helps us set the context.
Travis:Yeah.
Jeff:Well, uh, we uh reached the end of another episode. We appreciate your listening, and so uh we will continue this conversation after the first of the year. We will take December off. Uh many of you are traveling, will be traveling, we'll be out, so we will sort of recharge the batteries and get back at it uh the around January the first. Another episode will drop, and we'll look forward to uh seeing you again then on another episode of Career Conversations.
