Standing Firm Without Compromise: Why Theology Matters for the Church

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In an age where compromise is often treated as a virtue, how can churches stand firm without becoming harsh or unloving? In this episode of Courier Conversations, Jeff Robinson and Travis Kearns discuss why theology matters, why church membership is more than a club, and how pastors and church leaders can remain faithful to Scripture in a truth-hostile culture. Drawing from Jude, 1 Corinthians, and the broader witness of Scripture, they explore the relationship between orthodoxy and orthopraxy, the dangers of shallow theology, and why every Christian—not just pastors—must contend earnestly for the faith once for all delivered to the saints.

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Transcript

Framing The Call To Stand Firm

Jeff 0:07

Welcome to this episode of Courier Conversations. I am your host, Jeff Robinson, and with me as always is my co-host Travis Kearns. And today we are talking about compromise. And not just compromise, but not compromising. How is a church to stand strong on issues like church membership in an age that despises truth, uh, that doesn't like church membership, that treats church more like it's a club? Uh, how are pastors and church leaders to stand strong? So, Travis, how are we to stand strong in an age that is uh compromise is almost seen as a virtue?

Strength And Love In 1 Corinthians 16

Travis 0:48

Yeah, I think uh number one concern is obviously going to be standing on scripture, uh, not being apologetic for what the Bible says, uh, but standing on scripture regardless. Um, you know, really, I think probably the best passage of scripture that comes to mind is Jude, uh only one chapter, so not Jude one, but just Jude, uh, in the first four verses. So Jude writes, Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ and Brother James, to those who are the called, beloved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ, may mercy and peace and love be multiplied to you. And then there's these two verses that really come to mind specifically for uh for this topic, Jeff. Uh Jude says, Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith, which was once for all handed down to the saints, for certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord Jesus Christ. Uh now, obviously, their Jude is not talking specifically about um standing firm uh in a cultural way. He's talking about doing so in a theological way, but uh that theology then bleeds over into our practice. I know I remember hearing a number of times, I know Jeff, you do too, uh, as we were going through seminary, um, that uh orthopraxy does not lead to orthodoxy, but that orthodoxy leads to orthopraxy. So right belief will lead to right practice rather than the other way around. So as Jude here is writing, uh, especially in verse three, uh, appealing to them using very strong language that they contend earnestly, also strong language for the faith once for all handed down to the saints. He's saying, stand on your convictions, stand on what you know to be true, stand on scripture, do not back down, uh, regardless of who or what may be in your face, pushing you to do so. Stand firm on scripture. Yep.

Why Churches Neglect Theology

Jeff 3:00

That's right. One of my uh my favorite verses that encourages us in this is 1 Corinthians 16, 13, where Paul's closing up his argument, uh winding up his argument in uh church at Corinth, which is of course was in a hot mess, uh, had all kinds of things going on there, misusing the Lord's Supper, there was a misuse of spiritual gifts, there was heresy uh of all kinds, worked righteousness, just you know, it looked a lot like the evangelical church uh uh of today, uh, and uh which has always been under uh attack. But he says this he says, be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act like men, be strong, let all that you do be done in love. And of course I love that because he's he's saying, be strong and act like men. He didn't leave it at that. He says, let everything you do be done in love. Not be don't don't be uh a combative, abrasive jerk. He's not saying that by being strong, but he's good. Do everything in love, because that's what Christ did, because uh Jesus is both the lion of uh the lion of Judah and the Lamb of God, and so that's who we're to be as leaders. But you know, as you and I both know, uh we we live in an age of uh it's it's easy to compromise because uh theology. I say this all the time, and I teach this all the time. Uh we need theology uh because uh theology is where we stand, it's that faith once for all, the faith once for all delivered to the saints that you just read about uh in Jude there. Uh and and that because that's what puts the foundation under us. And it's it's interesting, Travis, in in several different venues now I've uh among lay people I teach theology. And they're just blown away by the fact that I'm encouraging them to and explaining why they should love theology. And they're like, you know, this is great. And they say that not because I'm doing anything special or particularly uh wonderful or skilled, but it's because they've never been thought taught theology. They don't have a place to stand often, and they've been an evangelical church for maybe a Southern Baptist church for years.

From Milk To Meat: Teaching Depth

Travis 5:04

Yeah, it's uh I think there may be a few things going on. So, first of all, I think people just haven't been taught theology, um, even on a local church level. Uh, most of the theology they learn or have read about comes from a very popular level uh from Christian books. It would be in a Christian living section of a Christian bookstore or of uh any Christian section in a larger bookstore. Um, and it's not bad theology, but it's not deep. Uh so to use Paul's analogy, it's milk rather than meat. So it's theology from books uh from writers like a Max Licato or a Charles Stanley or somebody like that. Again, not bad theology, but just not in-depth, not something that's really going to sustain you if deeper attacks come. Um I think too, uh, a lot of church folks, uh, I'm in the same boat you are, where I've been in church settings a pretty good number of times and teaching systematic theology. And as soon as it's announced, people immediately think, oh man, here comes the boring stuff. You know, it's going to immediately put us to sleep. Uh, it really doesn't have any bearing in my life. Uh, but interestingly, last time I saw I taught systematic at a church here in our association in the Greenville area, people loved it. We had 40 to 50 people show up on a Wednesday night for weeks on end, wanting to talk about theology. And what really fascinated me is the beginning of the course. We talked about scripture, then we talked about the doctrine of God. And in the section on the doctrine of God, we spent probably two or three weeks dealing with God's name and how important it is to know the name of God, what it means, how uh how it can really impact your life. And they were just blown away. Um, as you think about why it's so important in the Old Testament as He's a covenant-making, covenant-keeping God. And then you see the name of Jesus, uh, Emmanuel, and in Isaiah, it's God with us. And then in obviously in John 1, the word became flesh and dwelt among us. Um, so it really does have a lot of good insight and really can help you put the Bible together. So again, I think people believe um, first of all, they've had their theology that they need. They get it from popular Christian writing, or they get it even um even more frighteningly from Christian television. Um and then secondly, they're just scared of it because they think it's gonna be boring. Or thirdly, they just don't care. Um, you know, a few years ago, a book was published uh by Kyle Bashears called Apatheism, um, where he just says that people just he's talking more about unbelievers not caring about hearing the gospel. Um so if you were to ask somebody, do you want to hear about Christ, they would say, I don't know, and I don't care. That's kind of what he's getting at. But I think to some degree, maybe church people are that way. Uh when you ask them about theology, I don't know, I don't care. Um That's right. I remember my my grandmother in North Georgia, not far from where you grew up. Um she she grew up and lived in Elbert County her entire life in North Georgia, the granite capital of the world. Um, she would say all the time, honey, I just want to love Jesus.

Jeff 8:20

Yeah.

Travis 8:21

And, you know, that's okay. Uh we have to be okay with that. But at the same time, we have to say, and I would say to her often, well, Granny, which Jesus? Um, are you talking about the Jesus of evangelicalism? Are you talking about the Jesus of Roman Catholicism? Are you talking about the Jesus of Mormonism, of Islam, of uh of Christian science? Which Jesus are we talking about? Um, are we talking about the Jesus of Judaism, which is a vastly different Christ than the one of uh biblical Christianity? So there's a lot more to it than let me just love Jesus. We have to be okay with that, but we have to make sure and press as much as we can because it's not boring, it can be life-changing, and it can really help you understand how to put the Bible together uh as a whole picture.

Knowing God Versus Knowing About God

Jeff 9:05

Yeah, that that's right. We can we can sing the old song, Jesus is still all right with me, or Jesus is just all right with me. But the question we have to ask is which yeah, which Jesus? And when you say Jesus or God, and and this is where I kind of kind of start with people uh when I teach in theology, you've you've done theology. Or there when you say there is no God, you made a deeply theological statement. Um I've been uh I just started, I guess two weeks ago, uh a uh a class at uh Abner Creek, where I'm uh where my family belongs, and where you're you're the DOM and it's in your association, a very, very fine, very theologically uh driven church and uh doctrine of God. And and the place is it's packed. The classroom is packed. I had a I did a church history class for 14 weeks before that, and I mean we it was packed every week of people wanting to know uh these things because you know they've not been taught this before. And it's interesting on the first day of I taught the doctrine of God last winter, and on the first day of class, I wrote on the board, uh, do you know God or you do you just know about God? Because there's a there's an eternity's difference between knowing about God and knowing God. And so the the whole premise of the class is knowing God of the J. I Packer book. And we unpack the you know the attributes of God, his sovereignty, his providence, his holiness, his justice, his uh his infinity, all those things. Uh and uh and it's amazing how people love it. But this this man, uh, we had a new attendee now, a new member, who came to Christ on the first day of class, now not there in, you know, praying in front of the people or whatever, but later told me that he realized when I asked that question, again, this is nothing, this this is all to the glory of God and the Holy Spirit, of course. Uh, he said, I'd really never thought about do I know God or do I know about God? And I concluded I knew about God, but now I'm getting to know God and it's glorious. And and uh he was baptized at Abner Creek um probably six weeks ago or so, and incredible. But in a systematic theology class. So now we can no longer say we've not uh heard of anyone being saved in a systematic theology class because it is it's glorious. Again, that's not not my work, it's the Lord's work. Of course, 100% of salvation belongs to the Lord. But I think when people hear the word theology, they tend to think of the ivory tower, of uh erudition of theologians and things like that, and they get bored. But then when you just talk about God and Jesus and who he is, then it's exciting. Yeah, and you remember this book, it came out, gosh, probably 25 years ago called Just Give Me Jesus, and I won't I I don't remember that I I think I know the author, but it doesn't matter. And I don't know what the book was about, but you know, the popular thing was don't give me all that rigmarole, just give me Jesus. Well, man, there's the the the rigmarole is what's important about Jesus, as you stated earlier. But that book sold a lot of copies. Uh or you know, there's the there's the um the pastor from Texas with a winning smile who uh you know, every day's a Friday is a popular book. And I just what is that about? And it's a man, what it is, it's a man centered book about how you can be happy all the time, happy all the day, right because God has your picture on his refrigerator, which is a statement made in that book.

Travis 12:17

Um just need to be a leader of a church of or a congregation of 25,000. I won't call it a church, right? A group of 25,000 and make a couple million a year, and you'll be happy and smiling all the time too.

Popular Positivity Vs Biblical Preaching

Jeff 12:27

Yeah, that I could be very happy being a millionaire. Yeah, but but but you know, it but uh yeah, it it what's frightening about that is what you just said is there's 25,000 people there on Sunday on the Lord's Day, and they're not hearing about sin uh because he he has said, I stand my lane, I don't accuse people of sin, which I mean we're all all of sin to fall short of the glory of God. He wouldn't agree to that statement. Uh but yeah, that shows how important theology is, though, that that and and that I think that is priority one is preaching the Bible and preaching it as a book of an annotated story, annotated theological story, uh, and preaching it that way, uh, in uh verse by verse and book by book, and and that way you're able to do what Paul said here, to be to be watchful and stand firm and uh and uh act like men. I love that. My dad would tell me if you'd act like a man. And you know, I think uh that's a phrase that's fallen at hard times because of so-called toxic manhood and things like that. But I think that's be courageous, be be clear. Uh, one of my heroes, uh, and one of your heroes probably too is John MacArthur. And what I loved about Johnny Mack was he was uh he was convictional, and you never had to wonder where he stood. And of course, the man you and I, the man who uh one of the one of the mentors you and I have share in common is Albert Moeller, president of Southern Seminary. And all the years I've been around him and heard him teach and listen to the briefing every day and worked on his staff. And you know, you and I both worked there at Southern together and never heard him compromise. Never, never, never. He stood firm, acted like a man. We've heard him in chapel and all these places stand, stand up and preach the word and let it fly. Let the uh the spirit of God do his work. And so I think that is what we're talking about here is the first priority one in standing firm being watchful and watching for all these heresies and things like that. Because we just had before we started this, and you answered this. Mary Margaret, our one of our reporters, came in and said she'd encountered a Jehovah's Witness on the street doing a man on the street today, and uh was asking questions about that. But um it's very important.

Models Of Convictional Leadership

Travis 14:32

Yeah, I think it's also um potentially another reason um maybe that people don't like theology and don't consider um standing firm on their convictions is because they see theology as something reserved for, and you mentioned this earlier, reserved for theologians. It's not an average, you know, Christian on the street kind of thing. It's reserved for the ivory tower. But interestingly, um the first theologian in the church is Peter, who we all know was a fisherman. Uh really the only non-man on the street in that early church setting is Luke. He wasn't one of the original twelve. He was a physician by training. Um but everybody else was a common worker. Uh Paul was a tent maker, um, you have fishermen, uh, you have carpenters, you have Matthew being a tax collector, but he's called out of that. So he's not collecting taxes after he becomes a believer. Uh these are normal everyday folks, and they've got some pretty serious theological chops. Um, and and to say, you know, that they didn't stand on their convictions would be ridiculous, a ridiculous assertion because you see Peter prior to the resurrection denying Christ three times in one night. Whereas after the resurrection, Acts chapter two, uh, after the spirit falls, uh, in Acts chapter one and chapter two, the uh the uh remaining eleven are accused of being drunk. Peter stands up, no, it's too early for that. It's only nine in the morning, and uh preaches one of the best sermons that maybe the church has ever heard. Um, but has some very, very strong convictions. He's not backing down because of some sort of cultural issue or whatever it may be, uh, or pressure from even other religious leaders. Um Paul and Silas don't do that while they're in prison. Uh Paul doesn't do that while he's in prison alone as he's writing to Timothy. Um you don't see Paul doing that for crying out loud, you don't see Paul backing down from Peter when you read Galatians. Paul says, I've already told him in a letter and I see him in his face, I'm gonna tell him to his face that he's wrong and just lets him have it because he's because Peter at that point, Paul believes, has been compromising with uh some of the Judaizers. So yeah, I think it's uh maybe even people see it again as a as a discipline reserved for those who have training. But I I really just that that breaks my heart because in the same way that people believe that about maybe believe that about evangelism or about apologetics or about studying church history, whatever it may be, that we're called to study these things by scripture and to not be transformed, um, or not to be conformed to the world, be transformed by the renewing of our minds. It doesn't say to be transformed by the renewing of our feel-good emotions, um, or by singing garbage lyrics to junk music um all the time. It's by the renewing of our minds. And by doing, by studying these things, we can be transformed. Um, so when we think it's left for somebody who is trained or who's a professional, I think the problem really is not thinking that. I think it's more of a heart problem than it is an I don't want to problem. And ultimately, it's a problem that comes from Satan. Uh, it's the devil trying to stop people from doing what they're called to do uh because he's worried about losing more paying customers, so to speak.

Theology For Every Believer

Jeff 18:20

No, that's right. And here's the reality nowadays, there's not much of an excuse for someone not knowing sound doctrine if they want to. Um, one of my favorite books of the last few years to use with other to take other people through is R.C. Sprawl book, Everyone's a Theologian. And he starts in that book. It's just a little systematic theology. Each each doctrine's like three pages. I'm actually currently going through this with my youngest son, went through it. My oldest son, uh, my daughters have read parts of it, and now uh Jake and I are going through it. Uh just started a week, a week or so ago. Um, but it's just three or four pages and all the major doctrines. And but the premise is everyone's a theologian, you're you're whether you know it or not, you're a theologian. Uh, if you say I'm an atheist, I don't believe in God, well, that's theology. Uh but the question is, are you a good theologian or are you a very poor theologian? And of course, to say there is no God uh is being a poor theologian, or to say I just give me Jesus, whoever he is, that's being a poor theologian. And and so there's so many resources now in here at the Baptist Courier. We're trying to produce some of these ourselves and the monthly magazine, and this podcast, and books through uh Courier Publishing, trying to publish uh sound that that that uh communicates sound doctrine. I and never in the history of the church have there been so many sermons and books and free books. It owe you money. You can download books online, PDF versions of like say all John Piper's books. You can find you know, Lord John MacArthur, John Piper, R. C. Sproul's sermons. There's thousands and thousands and thousands of sermons from uh from these uh uh these uh Solid theologians are free. Uh, you know, there's works of the the reformers, Calvin and Luther, and all of most of uh Charles Spurgeon's sermons are now online and uh theology by a bunch of dead guys, I think is the name of the the uh the website. And so if you want to know theology, it's there. And just go on YouTube and you can let get lectures and I mean it's just everywhere and a lot of solid stuff. Now you want to be careful and discerning as to what you choose to listen to. Uh but it's out there. And I'm grateful because that's how I got started. I started, I guess, uh uh 30 years ago reading Apologetics, Norm Geisler, and and uh and then uh I read More Than a Carpenter after that, and then C.S. Lewis, and I got more a much more serious, you know, less popular theology. C. S. Lewis, what that was not the work of pop theology. Uh um, so uh Mere Christianity, that was the first book I read, and then I started reading uh I think I read um Timothy George's Theology of the Reformers and Tom Nettles by His Grace and For His Glory. I'm a Baptist who believes some of these things. Should I remain a Baptist? You know, I don't believe in infant baptism. And so uh there's just a lot of resources out there now. So if you want to train yourself uh theologically, uh there's good, there's good uh uh good study Bibles as the Reformation Study Bible, the Ligene Air publishes, the ESV study bible that that Crossway publishes, and then there are others. I mean, Joel Beaky is a pastor who's uh producing books just almost daily, it seems like Reformation Heritage has a new book come out, or and I know they've got a a study bible or two that's available. So there's just really an opportunity. If you you know you're a lay person, you say, I don't I don't want to go to seminary, and but I want to I'd love to learn about theology. Gosh, it's it's out there. Just let's do a Google search and just really everything you need.

Resources To Grow Doctrinally

Travis 21:46

Yeah, if you want one that's um if you want a study Bible that that was edited by a Baptist, uh Al Moeller has the systematic theology study bible that Zonova did, both in New Marion Standard and in NIV. Um you know, as you were talking, Jeff, another passage came to mind. So I think theology is not just for adults, it's also for children. Uh so Deuteronomy 6 comes to mind. Here Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Uh verses four through eight, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your might. Uh these words which I'm commanding you today shall be on your heart, then this, you shall teach them diligently to your sons, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down, and when you rise up. And Paul in Ephesians six even alludes to this in Ephesians six, four. Fathers, do not provoke your children to anger, but bring them up in the discipline and instruction of the Lord. So both Old Testament and New Testament. You see Moses, you see Paul admonishing parents to teach the things of God. So theology, and maybe we should have defined this at the beginning. Jeff defined, give us a quick 40,000-foot definition for what theology even is, because it's not something just for the adults, but it's something we were to teach to our parents or to our children as well.

Jeff 23:03

Yeah, it's it's the study of God, the study of the things of God. That's how I would define it. I think I defined it on the first day of my systematic theology class at the churches, the study of the things of God, and all the things related, all the disciplines related. There's a whole lot in that little short phrase. A lot can be unpacked, but most fundamentally, I think that's it. Yeah, so it's just uh theos and ology together, the two two Greek words.

Travis 23:26

Yeah, the Greek word theos meaning God. Then anytime you add ology to something, you get the study of. That's right. Um so yeah, it's um it's something that's not just for us, it's for our children also. And it's not just uh big words and 1500 page books. Um it's anytime you study or read about or try to understand the things of God, you're doing theology, whether you realize it or not.

Teach Your Children Diligently

Jeff 23:51

Well, one one thing, one practice I come into parents that we've tried to do is uh catechesis catechism. That is not for Roman Catholics only. Baptists have a long cherished tradition of writing and using catechisms to teach their children and teach uh theology. And uh there's the Baptist Catechism, which is free online. Uh uh I think the Gospel Coalition published the New City Catechism a few years ago. I was actually involved in that. It's really good. It's a uh a version of the uh uh Heidelberg Catechism, which I absolutely love. And so there's just all kinds of sources like that, but a qu a catechism is really just questions and answers about the Bible and theology in short in a short form for children, uh so they can learn and for adults, I would add. And so uh I would commend that to our listeners to find catechisms and not be afraid of things like that and think, well, that's a Catholic thing, they're a catechism class. Well, no. Uh we'd we'd be doing really well to have a catechism class, and I've pastors that had one, as a matter of fact, and so that's a good place to learn pithy summaries of of theology and get that in scripture in our children's minds is sure that's what we're doing in their minds and sort of putting them in the realm of grace.

Travis 25:01

Yeah, so I think, you know, kind of to sum up here what we've been saying, um how do we stand firm in the face of difficulties, stand firm on scripture, and you do so by studying scripture, and part of that study of scripture is learning about who God is and how he acts uh and the way that scripture fits together, which is nothing more or less than the study of theology.

Closing And Listener Invitations

Jeff 25:22

Amen. And what's all about at the end of the day, it's all about Jesus Christ, just like the Lord told us in Luke 24. Yep. So go read Luke 24 and then go back and read the Old Testament that way. And uh boy, if you're a Christian, you love the Lord, you'll fall in love uh with God and His Word and theology. Thank you for listening to this podcast of the Baptist Courier and Courier Publishing. Be sure to follow us on all social media platforms, give us the five-star review, and send any question you want us to consider at Courier Conversations at gmail.com. If you prefer to watch our conversations, check us out on YouTube by clicking the link in the description.