Can a Progressive Be a Christian? | Liberal Theology vs Biblical Christianity PART 2

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Can someone be both a progressive and a Christian? In this episode, we examine claims from James Talarico, explore whether political views define faith, and revisit J. Gresham Machen’s argument in Christianity and Liberalism. We discuss biblical authority, the five essential doctrines of the Christian faith, and why theology—not personality—must shape a Christian worldview. Learn how to think biblically about politics, culture, and truth in today’s divided landscape.

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Transcript

Opening Question: Politics And Christianity

Jeff 0:00

Does being conservative make a person a Christian, James Talarico says about being Christian and being pro-choice are absolutely consistent? Because Christianity is a feminist religion. Jesus was a radical feminist and probably pro-choice.

Dr. Johnson 0:15

Where's your biblical authority for that? Uh most liberal theology just holds to the teachings of Jesus and then they hold those selectively. Christianity sees the Bible as the word of God, not simply the teachings of Jesus. Don't call something Christian or yourself a Christian if what you're believing is out of line with 2,000 years of Christian, of Christian history.

Jeff 0:42

For too long, we've evaluated Christians in political politics primarily through their policy positions. Are you pro-life or pro-choice? Do you support same-sex marriage? What's your position on immigration? Yeah, this is exactly backward, he says. Talarico is a genuine Christian because he's a nice guy.

Dr. Johnson 0:57

Um, nice is not a worldview. You shouldn't take an uh instrument of iron and rip open pregnant women. I mean, you don't have to have a Bible to tell you something's wrong with that.

Jeff 1:11

And MAGA, because of all the sharp edges, is unchristian. I don't think anyone in that movement is saying we're here to uphold historic Orthodox Christianity.

Dr. Johnson 1:20

I would take somebody that was opposed to abortion, same-sex marriage, you know, killing babies, I would take them and not being a real nice person than I would a nice person who stood for all those things. You know, the rule of law. And you draw a line and say that's what we're going to do. Is that being mean?

Jeff 1:38

Do you think that progressives on Capitol Hill, are they ever combative?

Dr. Johnson 1:43

The people that shouted at at um at Trump's State of the Union that stood up, it's like, are those people mean-spirited? What's good for the goose is good for the gander, the old saying goes.

Machen And Five Essential Doctrines

Jeff 1:59

So it goes it it leads into the the the second question is can a progressive, theological progressive, be a Christian? Because French is arguing here clearly that he's an open, uh, openly Christian politician and considers him a brother in Christ. And now, before we go any further, we're not here to weigh in on uh anyone's eternal destiny. We don't know that. We aren't omniscient, we aren't God, and we we grant that only he is the final judge. So we're not we're not good uh here to say whether or not we believe James uh Talarico is a Christian or not. But we're asking if you hold those beliefs, those progressive beliefs about theology, about God and man and uh the the beginning of life and uh gender and sexuality, does it matter? Well, uh we're not the first to ask this question. As you said, J. Gresham Machen, one of our uh hero to both of us, wrote a very uh a very famous book uh in uh in 1921 called Christianity and Liberalism. Just celebrated the hundredth anniversary of that here just a while back a few years ago. Um and uh it didn't start out as a book, was uh addressed given in November 3rd, 1921 to the Ruling Elders Association of the Chester Presbyterian in Pennsylvania, just outside Philadelphia. And in that book, Machen took up this argument as is progressive Christianity Christianity at all, and concluded it was not. And his he used as his uh his uh uh uh basis for that uh five essential doctrines of the Christian faith that are sit at the heart of what we believe. If you deny these, then you deny the Orthodox Christian faith, biblical Christianity, and then therefore you stand outside the uh the stream of Orthodox Christianity. The doctrine of man, meaning the total depravity, fallenness of man, uh doctrine of scripture, the inerrancy, infallibility, full inspiration of scripture, uh, doctrine of Christ, the deity, full deity, and humanity of Christ, incarnation, and his death and resurrection as being truthful and historic and uh substitutionary atonement. All the things that go with that, the doctrine of salvation, there's salvation no other, no other name given among men, by which we must be saved. Uh he is the way, the truth, and light, no one comes to the Father but by Him. And also the doctrine of the Church that over against Roman Catholicism, there's salvation uh outside the not inside the church, but through by grace alone, faithful in Christ alone, and that the church is more than just a gathering of of uh of social elites who are seeking to uh sort of bring social change to culture. And so he said, those are five doctrines. You if you um deny any of those, contra uh if you compromise those, then you stand outside the stream of historic Christianity, exactly what you've been saying here. And so we have to apply that test, I think he's right, to myself and to James Talarico and to others uh who hold uh to progressive, so-called progressive Christianity.

Authority, Experience, And An Evolving Faith

Dr. Johnson 4:49

Yeah, and Tolerico, let me uh uh let me explain that view without appearing to defend it, because I certainly do not hold that view. But what he would say is Machen has a misunderstanding of Christianity. That that he was holding to a view of Christianity that was popular for a long time. But he in Talifner's view, Christianity is not something that is set in stone that where God has spoken. The the uh again, then this is tied into German idealism, philosophy, uh Kant and Hegel, that that God is almost non-personal and he is working through the human being and the society, progressing. And that true Christianity, they would say, is not a set of doctrines, it's a way of life. It's we're not so concerned, they would say, about Jesus's teachings as we are uh uh I mean, Jesus what he did, as much as we are just his teachings. We like his teachings. And then they're selective on those, right? But we like his teachings and that Christianity and all religion is just based on human experience, not an authoritative statement from God. That human experience is constantly changing, and therefore our understanding of truth and Christianity is is constantly changing. So telephonical problems say, yeah, Machen is great for his day. But we have progressed, we have moved beyond that, and Christianity, any any confession of faith is true as long as it, he would say, is based on Christian experience. And so the difference, it really comes down to an issue of authority. Is the human being an autonomous uh source of authority, or does the authority come from the outside uh as it has in modern Christian? So he would say matrons fine for his day, but he misunderstands that Christianity is constantly evolving, like all truth is constantly evolving. And so it's based on human experiences, we're we're growing and progressing in autumn, uh, you know, and that was another thing at the heart of classical liberalism. Um uh uh inevitable progress was always gonna be, not looking back at the Bible, but we are coming to gain truth more and more and understand more and more. And so he would sort of pat, you know, machine on the head and say, Good boy, that was good for your day. But we have moved, we've moved beyond that. And I'm just saying if you move beyond the authoritative spoken word of God, you've moved beyond the truth and you're on dangerous ground. Now, whether or not those people are are Christian, now we can't help but have our own thoughts on whether they are. Right. But I I think I'm I would want to distinguish between I would be more hesitant to say he's not a Christian, but I would not in any way hesitant to say I'm not going to affirm him as being one. Uh that's a different story. Uh so while I may say, I'm not going to say um that he is not. God knows those who are his. It's very questionable when you deny these essentials of the faith. But to say that you're a Christian, I'm not going to say that I agree that he is a Christian. I'm certainly not going there. And I think probably everybody knows where I would go on the other one as well if I were forced to say.

Jeff 8:24

Well, what you're saying is what Machen said toward the end of his treatise here. He says, we're not dealing here with delicate personal questions. We are not presuming to say whether such and such an individual man is a Christian or not. God only can decide such questions. No man can say with assurance whether the attitude of certain individual liberals toward Christ is saving faith or not. But one thing is perfectly plain. Whether or no liberals are Christians, it is at any rate perfectly clear that liberalism is not Christianity. And that being the case, it is highly undesirable that liberalism and Christianity should continue to be propagated within the bounds of the same organization. A separation between the two parties in the church is the crying need of the hour. This is 1921. Uh, how much more so? I mean, you could read this. It's like reading, you know, you and I both read it three or four times, or maybe more, and it could be written today and yesterday and then tomorrow. And I think I remember in about 2001, 2002, William Webb, you may remember this book came out with a book on hermeneutics, a trajectory hermeneutics. So the Christian faith is on a trajectory. We understand the Bible on a trajectory. So that's why now we're we're at a place now we can affirm same-sex marriage because we we've God has opened the truth to uh help us understand that that's been there all along, and now we can affirm that. And I'm assuming now LGBTQ, that's uh several years later, and abortion, all these things. We have insights because, as you said, the target's always moving with theology, it's always morphing and changing, very much in step with Darwinian evolution, Darwinian naturalism, which is getting better all the time. And of course, we we have to say, and you've taught this your whole career, Christian realism demands that we say, no, that doesn't cohere with what we see out there. The Bible does. And what Machen is calling for here, what you just called for, that coheres with what I see out there on the streets every day. The streets declares the sinfulness of man and the need for rescue. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

Dr. Johnson 10:22

Yes. And you see, Machen was exactly right when he said these these two forms of so-called Christianity, Christianity and liberalism, can't continue together. And I think the split you see later in his own denomination, I mean, he has to leave Princeton, you know, because the split and it's exactly what he said. Everybody realized, wait a minute, these are incompatible here. Uh liberal liberal Christianity, which he wouldn't call it that. The title of that book is very revealing. You know, it's not liberal Christianity and conservative Christianity, it's Christianity and liberalism. We do not have two uh variations of the same religion here. But what I'm saying is history bore that out. Look how many splits there have been in the different denominations based on that very thing that said, you're exactly right. These views cannot coexist because they're diametrically opposed.

Jeff 11:16

That that's right. And uh it and it's it's not gonna this has always been here. You said this earlier. This is not a new debate. Uh this is not there's nothing new in the sun. Solomon said that in Ecclesiastes. And there indeed there's not, because this has been with us uh throughout history. I teach church history at North Greenville and and and have in the past and other and other places, and I always start the class with church history is nothing more than a battle for the Bible. It's competing worldviews, biblical Christianity versus all comers. Uh because Satan, you know, seeks whom he may devour, he wants to devour the Bible, right? And and and it's teaching. And that's what uh I mean, Talarico, I think this is it almost seems like this is more demonic because it comes clothed in a garb of of winsomeness.

Dr. Johnson 12:00

Yes, and I said that's why he if he can appeal with that to five percent of the voters, that may be elections are usually clearly determined if he can address and and win five people. And what what bothers me is how so many, even evangelicals, do the same thing of looking and saying, well, here's a nice guy. He speaks kindly, he wants peace and love. We need people like that. But as I said, that's not a world view. You know, what view does the person hold about these things? So I'm afraid even many evangelicals are drawn in. You know, I remember speaking to my grandmother one time about there was a certain university that they had religion professors come speak at their church, and I knew of those people and told her what they really believed. And she said, Why, those are nice men. And I said, I didn't say they weren't nice. Right. They're very nice. But I'm not talking about being nice, I'm talking about being biblical. We ought to be as nice as we are. And by the way, the the the nice guy that liberals present is not necessarily the the biblical view of Jesus. Jesus was not always all that nice. And and so that's another problem, again, where they're s very selective in choosing what passage and and which which uh I I hate it that it took a Roman Catholic to point this out. And I guess other people, I just guess he did it in just such a unique way. He said, you 19th century liberals, which he would mean now the same thing liberals today, right? He said, you're looking down through church history and you're seeing Jesus there. But he said, you're like a man who is looking down through a deep well, and what you're actually seeing is your own face smiling back at you. And he said, when you look down, isn't it strange? When you look down through church history in the Bible, the v the face that you're seeing smile back at you looks like a 19th-century Protestant liberal. That's a devastating point. That that they were just seeing in Jesus selectively choosing what they wanted to choose and what they wanted the part of it, and it looked a whole lot like them. Well, Jesus was not a whole lot like them. Jesus affirmed, verily, verily, as God says said the ultimate say, quote the scriptures, it stands written, you know, but they don't hold to those things. So the the the Jesus that they're seeing, oddly enough, looks a lot like them.

Jeff 14:26

Well, it's like it's like the 1970s rock band, a famous song from that era, uh, Jesus is still all right with me. And I think that's true largely of the people. The question is, which Jesus, right? Is it the Jesus of historic Protestantism, is it the Jesus of liberalism, the Jesus of country music? I mean, you know, I'm not sure.

Dr. Johnson 14:48

And I want to be fair here, you know, and say all of us have the danger, and this is where uh reading and talking with others help, of doing the same thing. Of seeing something in the scriptures and reading our own position into it. We have to be very careful about that. But we need to be aware that that's what we're doing and not do that intentionally. What I see in liberalism, and because of their the philosophical underpinnings, that is the proper thing to do. You know, you you look and you see and you the you select the parts that are in keeping with the modern sentiment. But while I'm saying, I'm not saying I'm not immune to that. I'm saying I'm aware that it can happen and I need to curb it as much as I can. That's very different than what they're doing. So I I don't want anybody to think, well, are you so you're just stand, you're just claiming to stand at an objective observer and you just look and see it exactly like it is. Not necessarily. We have the same problem. We're just aware of it.

Speaker 2 15:48

That's right.

Dr. Johnson 15:48

And and say that it's not a good thing. We are overcoming it. You know, we don't we don't believe in the latest truths coming out. We stand on the faith once delivered to the saints, the best we can possibly understand that.

Jeff 16:01

Well, as we finish up here, two two things, and I I'm gonna ask the second one's gonna be a question I'm gonna ask you because I know what you're gonna say, and I want our listeners to hear your answer. Uh one is uh a lot of this does come down to ethical questions. Can you be uh can you believe in the full range of the LGBTQ plus matrix and wherever that's gonna go, the plus being wherever it's gonna go? Uh and can you be pro uh as uh as um uh Talarico here is very pro-abortion. Jesus is pro-abortion. Uh can you be those things and consider yourself a Christian? And I think as as uh I think given everything we've said here, we would conclude that you've deviated far, far afield from the biblical teaching of life beginning uh at conception and of uh God defining gender as only two genders, male and female, which is un almost unconscionable that we're having to even have that discussion now. And it makes people mad to say that. That's that's crazy to me. I'm sure it is to you. We've been here long enough to think that, to see the nuttiness in that. Uh and the whole LGBTQ plus whatever it is, the redefining of gender and marriage. I mean, I think we'd have to say that those are unbiblical truths, those are uh uh wide of the mark, but they arise from the more foundational theology of who Jesus is and who we are and what is truth, wouldn't you say?

Dr. Johnson 17:30

Yes, that's the first thing that I would want to say is ethics is an application of theology. Right. And and how a person uh the ethical views that they hold, if they're in any way consistent, are gonna be grounded in their metaphysics, in their metaphysics, the doctrine of understanding who God is, ultimate reality. So, yes, so that's why I always say you go back with most of these people that espouse abortion, same-sexual thing, you're gonna find out they don't have their basic theology right. That's right. Now, others make the other mistake, they got their basic theology right, but they're extremely inconsistent in their application of it. And so it's usually one of those two, one of those two issues that's uh that's the problem. And I think a way of stating the question, and you you said that, is can a person be a Christian and hold some views that are not consistent with Christianity? That's the that's the tough one. You know. Um and I said a lot of times it's because they've misunderstood Christianity, and a lot of times it's because they've drawn wrong conclusions from their starting point of biblical theology. So I'm just saying, you know, I would not I would not say that this person, our Texas representative, is not a Christian. I'm not gonna go as far as saying that. But I'll guarantee you what I'm not going to do. I'm not going to affirm him as being one. Right. And that's the mistake that French made.

Jeff 18:55

That's right. And that's the confusion. I think I think we'd like to have some clarity. And we're not, again, accusing uh David French of anything either, but but I think I think we it's fair to say that what Talarico espouses, we believe historic Christianity, what Machen espouses, what you and I teach, and and have for a long time, what we what we promote here at the Baptist Courier, and what Southern Baptists have always believed, and conservative Presbyterians and evangelicals uh uh in the Reformation tradition and beyond uh uh biblical Christianity, let's say, uh, that what Talarico is espousing, there's Christianity and that's something else. Just like Machen said, there's there's what we believe, and then what that is, is something else. And I don't know if that what a seminary is teaching him, uh, but uh he claims to be a minister. He preached in his own church uh in Texas here a while back, and it was the you know Jesus's uh we've misunderstood Jesus kind of sermon. And I've listened to bits and pieces of that, and I encourage you to find that on there. So I do encourage you the last question here, and I know, like I say, I know you're gonna go. So we want to leave, I want to encourage our listeners, but I do commend Christianity and liberalism. It's not a very big book, it's less than 200 pages. Uh it's easy to read, and so I encourage you to get this book and read it and just marvel at how it was written 105 years ago and continues to speak boldly and clearly to right now, and it will until Jesus comes back when he wrote to our Lord Returns. So let's get to the kind of the bottom line here. Okay, I'm a Southern Baptist, and I'm in South Carolina, and I've been in church all my life, and what you said, one thing you said earlier resonated with me, Dr. Johnson. It was that Talarico, we're not gonna have to vote because we're in South Carolina, I realize that, but let's just put our if if we're having this vote here in South Carolina, say Talarico is running for Senate here, he's such a nice guy. He's so winsome, and he talks about Christ and in all of in prayer and things like that, and in every address, every time he gets an opportunity. And then there's Trump, and he's got a lot of rough edges, and uh he's a bull in a china shop. And um gosh, he's just downright meaning. Some of his uh his his generals and his admirals, they they can come off as uh a little bit ruthless. Uh how can I how can I um get on board with what we've said here, historic Christianity. What what do I need to do to uh to he to to hear more clearly what we're trying to argue here?

How Christians Should Weigh Candidates

Dr. Johnson 21:19

Yeah. Well, you know, uh Trump uh can be his own worst enemy, you know. Uh he he um has inherited, in my opinion, a a nation that is in terrible situation. And when you're in terrible situation, it takes radical steps to fix it and it makes you look really worse. Right. Trump doesn't help. If I were voting, if Trump was running for for position and Talifara was running for p the same position, and I said, Okay, how do I decide who to vote for? If I say it's the one who's nice, well, that's a no brainer, you know. Uh the guy In Texas wins that. He's a nice guy. If you say, let's set aside personality and let's look at the positions, to me, that's the key that we're voting for. Now, do you say does the who the person is make a difference? Yes, it does. But it's not the deciding factor. The deciding factor is what positions do they hold. And so that's just why I would just say the way I decide who to vote for, I do not ask who's nice and who's not. I say a believer ought to say which policies are in line with the word of God. And then I may wish that my candidate had great uh personality or whatever, but that's just decision that I that I go on. I don't say I vote for this party no matter what. I think there's some people, if the Democrat Party and the Republican, if they completely switch platforms, they would still hold to the one that's not I've always been a Democrat. And I think one thing that people, and this is what where you know we have to be very careful, is that people can get you looking at the wrong thing.

Speaker 2 23:14

Right.

Dr. Johnson 23:14

Look at the one who's nice rather than look at the policies. So what I've always said is I don't defend Donald Trump. I wouldn't go on vacation with Donald Trump. You know, I wouldn't invite him to go on vacation with me. Yeah, I wouldn't, but you know, I do I you know. But in either case, I would say look at the policies and weigh them out in accordance with the true word of God as it has been traditionally understood. And I think that's what we have to go with. And and not, you know, whether the person's nice, that's icing on the cake.

Jeff 23:50

One of the the heart of our mission here at the Baptist Courier and Courier Publishing, everything we do is to promote the study of the Bible and the study of doctrine. And we live in an age where doctrine is seen as divisive and niceness is seen as the way ahead, or something more Christ-like, or something like that. And what I want to encourage people to do, and I'm just exactly what you said, study the Bible. Know theology, know why you're a Baptist, know why you're a Christian, no, no, know these doctrines that mention this sort of five, these five doctrines, know what they mean and know how they land on the ground in everyday life. Yeah, I agree. And that's been your message. You've been teaching students for three decades and beyond, and writing for our audience now, and that's it. We want you to know what you believe and why you believe it. And and be able to think through to press those, to press that, all these issues through that matrix, so the matrix of Scripture, so that when you do vote or you do uh uh decide uh uh what you think about certain things, uh uh make decisions in your life, you know how you know biblically how to do that. That's it. That's our really our one mission here in all.

Dr. Johnson 25:06

Have a biblical worldview. That's it. I can't have a biblical worldview, and as I keep saying, nice is not a biblical worldview. It's a great quality to have.

Jeff 25:17

Right.

Dr. Johnson 25:17

But it's not a worldview.

Jeff 25:19

And uh there's nothing more powerful uh that I've seen, and you've been around a long time too, longer than even longer than I have, and I've been around a long time in evangelical circles, but men who know the truth, who uphold the truth, who are gracious and kind-hearted, they are Christ-like. You see that, and but they don't bifurcate between the two. Our friend Tom Nettles comes to mind, and Tom Schreiner, people I know that I've there have been men that have poured into me over the years, and they're godly kind people, but they will they are valiant for the truth.

Dr. Johnson 25:46

Well, they're doing what Paul said. It's not an imperative there, I think, in Ephesians. It's uh it but but it it serves as an imbi i it it's an imperative. Speaking the truth in love. Amen. You have to do both. You know, if if we just are the in love, and that's the problem is people think, well, I love people too much to be firm and many. Well, the person that loves you is the one who tells you the truth. Okay. So speaking the truth in love. Some people can do one of those without the other.

Speaker 2 26:18

Yeah.

Dr. Johnson 26:18

Uh the unique person is the one who's who actually does both, stands very firm, and is yet loving in the process. It is not loving to compromise the truth.

Jeff 26:29

That's right.

Dr. Johnson 26:30

That's the most loving thing you can do, but you can do it gently.

Final Resources And Listener Requests

Jeff 26:34

Jesus Christ is full of grace and truth. He, yes, he preached the Sermon on the Mount, but he also uh evicted the uh money changers from the temple and flipped over the tables, and he also preached Matthew 23, the bombing raid against the Pharisees, and we would amen that all day long, and that helps us. So that's good. Thank you for listening to this podcast of the Baptist Courier and Career Publishing. Be sure to follow us on all social media platforms, give us a five-star review, and send any questions you want us to consider at Career Conversations at gmail.com. If you prefer to watch our conversations, check us out on YouTube by clicking the link in the description.