Everyone's a Theologian | Importance of Doctrine

In this episode of Courier Conversations, Jeff Robinson and Dr. Walter Johnson discuss why every person is a theologian—whether they realize it or not. They explore how theology shapes daily life, why doctrine intimidates many churchgoers, the difference between biblical and systematic theology, and how sound doctrine leads to deeper worship, confidence, and understanding of Scripture.

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Transcript

Welcome And Life After Teaching

Jeff 0:07

Welcome to another episode of Courier Conversations. I'm Jeff Robinson. Your host, and with me today is Walter Johnson, Dr. Walter Johnson, retired professor of theology and philosophy and ethics and preaching and departures in a pear tree from uh North Greenville University, who's often my co-host. So welcome back to the show today, uh, Dr. Johnson. Uh how are things in uh the retirement world?

Dr. Johnson 0:32

I am glad to be here with you again. And uh things are great in retirement. I absolutely love it, but I don't love it any better than I did walking in the classroom every day. So two different lifestyles, but loved both of them.

Jeff 0:48

Yeah, he uh Dr. Johnson is one of our trustees here at the Baptist Career as of the last meeting, so welcome aboard with that. And uh I loved what you said at the meeting, how every day that you walked on campus in North Greenville, you loved your job. You never dread dreaded the calling that God had put on your life uh and and and showing up at that school.

Dr. Johnson 1:07

That's that's right. It it was certainly a calling, and uh I just loved it. You know, loved being who I was with. We had uh great collegiality, great students, and it was just till we had to grade papers, it was a bunch of fun. I didn't I never could bring myself to tell them I would actually teach for free, but they'd have to pay me to grade papers. So everything was fun except that.

Jeff 1:30

Having graded my share of papers and probably somebody else's share of papers, I am with you. Uh Travis Kearns was usually with me. We both graded for Charlie Draper when we were Seminary students, one of your former colleagues, and Charlie did everything in blue books. Remember the blue books? Yes. And so I remember taking those blue books with me everywhere I went and uh until they became almost a part of me.

Dr. Johnson 1:52

And he didn't mind using the blue book as long as somebody else was grading it.

Jeff 1:56

That's right. That's right. And I was one of those somebody else's, and so was Travis until we graded for our own sense. Well, this afternoon we are here to talk about a topic that

Why Everyone Has God Thoughts

Jeff 2:05

Travis and I sort of introduced last time that I want to talk to you about as a theologian of many, many years of teaching and and now writing for us, and that is er everyone's a theologian. This uh this uh a book by this title uh has kind of put this on my radar a few years ago by R. C. Sproul, and I know another one uh a theologian who's influenced you as well as me. And uh his argument in there, as we looked at last time, is that everybody, literally everyone's a theologian. Uh we uh but the question is, are you a good theologian or a bad theologian? Because as soon as you say, I believe in God, you've made a theological statement. Or if you say, as the psalmist has quoted saying, the fool is said in there is no God, you've made a statement that's deeply theological. So what do you think about that? Is everyone a theologian in the non-formal sense? Aaron Ross Powell, Jr.

Dr. Johnson 2:56

Yes, because as you said, uh we would normally refer to people that didn't believe in God as a theologians, you know, a meaning not there they don't believe it, like an atheist, an atheist, but they do have thoughts about God. And I I find it uh uh very odd, ironic, that so many of these that don't believe in God talk about him all the time, about how bad he is, you know, wouldn't do this, wouldn't do that. You know, you talk an awful lot about something you don't believe in. But uh yes, they do have uh if we if we define theology as just really having thoughts about God, you know, every person really does sometime or another. And of course, part of that's because God's written that on our hearts. Uh just the mind is just uh created by God in such a way that we think in terms of the transcendent and the metaphysical, and that's uh that's introducing the concept of God.

Jeff 3:49

I found, and I'm sure you know this as well, or better than I do, that sometimes when you go into a church uh to preach or teach, and you use the word theology, or you talk about it, it frightens people. They seem to be intimidated, or they say, Well, I don't want to talk about theology, I just want to talk about Jesus. Why do you think that's the case that people are so uh averse to theology?

Dr. Johnson 4:11

Well, a l a lot of times it's the theologian's own fault. Not always. Right. But uh, you know, we we can come across as very uh overly scholarly, and uh when so when people think about those things sometimes they think, okay, that's what we're gonna hear. In fact, it's uh it's odd. I I talked to a guy that was teaching theology one time, and uh I don't know if he if he saw the irony of it, but he said, I I taught in my church a long time, and they always told me I ought to go into teaching. And I said, Well, why did they think that? He said, because they couldn't understand anything I was saying. Well, you shouldn't be going into teaching then. In teaching, they're supposed to understand what you're saying. So I think sometimes we're guilty of of speaking in such esoteric language that that's where people actually think, okay, we're going to hear something that but if you just talk to them about theology and all that on the on their level, they seem to accept it pretty well.

Jeff 5:09

That's right.

Dr. Johnson 5:09

But part of it's our own fault, but again, part of and and I'd have to say part of it is sometimes Christians I think believe that God gave us the Bible so we wouldn't have to think anymore, you know, it to replace our thinking. And and obviously it's to be the foundation of our our thinking. Uh we're to think from it and reason from it, but we're still to do theology and with with uh with the mind. And so I think a lot of people are just I I hate to say it are just uh mentally lazy. I had one guy tell me in a Sunday school class one time, he said, I uh you're talking about things that and I just don't want to have to think. I have to think all week long. I don't want to have to come to church and think. And how do you answer somebody like that except you know, I say, Man, I'm I'm sorry you feel that way, you know, if you don't want to think when you come to Sunday school. So he wanted it just laid down in so simple terms that it was not challenging, you didn't learn anything. So I think it's part our theologians, uh us being theologians, it's part our fault because of how we treat it, have treated the discipline. And I think sometimes there are people that just uh you know, one of the main uh th y you hear from time to time, don't give me theology, just give me Jesus.

Jeff 6:19

Right.

Dr. Johnson 6:20

And I had somebody tell me that one, and I I said, you know, the thing is um you can't do that, you know, because w uh they said, Well, I just want to believe in Jesus. And I said, Well but you can't believe in Jesus without believing that certain things are true about him. And when you start s saying those things that are true about him, you are doing theology. Now it may be on a very shallow level, but you're doing theology if you just say, Give me which Jesus are you talking about? You know, tell me some things about him. He's the Son of God, okay? That's a theological statement. He's the second person of the Trinity. That's a theological statement. So um it's it's really impossible to say just to really put in practice, just give me Jesus and not theology. The way we know about Jesus is through the theological statements that are made about him.

Jeff 7:13

Well, I know you taught theology for a long time. I'm privileged to teach theology as well. Uh but I've known uh I've known a lot of your former students, like Travis is one of your former students, uh, one of my staff members, or a couple of my staff members, former students, and what I found is that they went some some of your students come into your class and they have to take theology and they take it, but then they leave the class loving theology and say, I want to give myself to studying

Why Theology Intimidates Church People

Jeff 7:40

this and continuing to study this. How how can we what what's what's your secret? How do you make them passionate? I know you don't make them, but how do you and how do you talk them into being very passionate about such an important topic that maybe they weren't they were kind of maybe even intimidated by before they got there?

Dr. Johnson 8:00

Well, again, it's as I said, part of it is is putting it on their level. And part of it is doing exactly what we were doing right now, is is letting them know you've already been doing this. The question is how well you're going to do it. You've got a theology, the question is how biblical is it and how robust is it. And so I I think a lot of students when they began to say, you know, this is really fitting some pieces together of the puzzle and helping me not only believe something to underst but understand what I'm believing. And and uh that's that's the key to it. Now I'll have to say uh I strived was striving to do that with every student, but I had some near misses. You know, there's some that that just uh when they got out, they it was still scratching their head, why did we do that? What good was it? And and you know, so they they sort of had to have something to start with when they got there, usually to to to really catch on. But uh we keeping it on their level and letting them see also how it applies to life. Uh and also most of our students we we came just as I did from a theological bubble. And so when you start talking about some of the things you you're talking about, you have to read some quotes to them and what other theologians are saying and what mainline churches are saying, and and to let them see you are going to be confronted with this somewhere. You may not have now, but if you're in ministry, you're going to be confronted with this, and you need to be able to give some answers and explanation. And when when students catch on to that, they they tended to get very interested.

Jeff 9:35

I had a friend a while back who wanted me to teach uh some some folks for him, teach theology, teach the Bible. And he wanted me to keep it on a basic level, which of course I want to keep it on a on a you know, keep it on a very uh let's I'd say uh an easy to understand level, uh a clear level. Uh but he said, you know, I tend to be a very practical person, so I'm not really into theology. But is theology not practical? Is not what you think about God, what you think about yourself, what you you think about Jesus Christ, and what the Jehovah's Witnesses that come to your door tell you about Jesus, is not all that practical?

Dr. Johnson 10:10

Yes, I mean, and that's another thing is connecting the dots to for to help somebody see that it's practical. But your if you're halfway consistent even, your practice grows out of your doctrine. You you you if I think the building is on fire, I'm going to act one way. If I don't think it's on fire, I'm going to act a different way. If I have a certain theological belief, I'm going to act in response to it in a certain way. If I have another one, and so uh I I think what they're ending up doing is is having a theology without I mean they they don't realize they have it, but they're building their practice, but not on sound theology. And so I just always say th sound theology comes first, and that's the basis, and and the scripture that's why Paul t wrote to Timothy said, teach those things that are of sound doctrine. Why? Because that affects how people live. And and and uh um i i it it's the the the foundation and the framework, the pillar and ground of the truth.

Jeff 11:13

So um, yeah. Well, you and I both hold to a a um I would call a very robust view of God's sovereignty, a biblical view, and certainly what's there right there in the Bible. Look at the story of Joseph, for example. It's very clear that God's doing this, God did this, God took Joseph to Egypt, God did this, God this. Those latter chapters just everywhere. Uh and and and and that is one of the things I try to convince people, you know, do you uh Christians, do you believe God's at work in your life? They'll say, I do. So do you not want to know how he's at work in life? Do you want to have questions? I do. And I think once you start helping them see that these are the answers to questions you have about God, they start to get interested in it. I think, you know, catechesis, catechism, I I I like that form of education. I might not use that term with Southern Baptists, they tend to think Roman Catholicism. Of course, there was a time, as you and I both know, as Southern Baptists robustly uh catechitical in their their their teaching format in uh in churches, especially particular Baptists in England, even the general Baptists to some degree. But uh uh I I find that when when people realize that what I think about how sovereign God is or isn't, you know, they start to listen. And what did Jesus accomplish at the cross? And am I saved, and do I stay saved? I just wrote a book on uh eternal security, as we call it, or perseverance of the saints. And they have a lot of questions about that. And I always like to point out that theology answers these questions. And you understand when I tell you the answer, or give you what the the Bible's answer, you understand it. You don't need a degree in advanced Greek grammar to understand that John 10, 27, no one will snatch them out of my hands. I give them eternal life and no one will snatch them out of my hands. That's very straightforward.

Dr. Johnson 12:53

And it goes much beyond that. I'm sure you showed in the book if you wrote a whole book on it, is that other doctrines feed into that understanding. The sovereignty of God feeds into other uh doctrines, and that's one of the advantages of systematic theology is it is it doesn't keep the doctrines separate. That's right. You know, it it integrates the different doctrines to where you know your your doctrines are not in conflict with each other. Systematic theology helps us make sure that my doctrine of God doesn't have contradictions in it. Uh and it doesn't, my doctrine of God doesn't contradict somehow my doctrine of salvation, or in other words, it so it what you're saying is certainly true. When when students start st or anybody start seeing, you know, hey, this thing is starting to fit together, then it makes a lot more sense. I always said it, it's you know, you you can you can learn where all of the interstate highways in the United States, you can name all of them. Well, that's some knowledge, but when you understand how those inner how they intersect with each other and reconnect, I mean then you know a lot more and understand a lot more than what you did. So systematic theology uh helps us because as we, I mean, just as human beings, um our mind tries to sense uh uh systematize and make our ideas coherent. That's right. You know, if um if if you had to be a piece of paper that had eight words on it and I'd I'd look at it and say, Okay, what do you mean by this? Well, I'm assuming you meant something by it. You could say, I I didn't mean anything, I just wrote some words down. I don't think so. When I look and see those words, I try to say, Well, how do you make sense of these? What how do they relate to each other? The mind just does that because

Why Doctrine Shapes Daily Practice

Dr. Johnson 14:35

God created us that way. And so when we read the scriptures, you know, w whether people do it or not, they are m trying to make it fit together somehow if they believe in the inherent of the scripture. Because if you don't believe in the inherent of the scripture, what Paul says and what Peter says can actually contradict it. How you so we as people who hold to the inherent of the scripture, we certainly do systematic theology because we believe the pieces all do fit together. If we if it's just man's writings, you know, if if uh author B says one thing and author C have another books, I don't try to reconcile those because they don't believe the same thing.

Jeff 15:13

That's right.

Dr. Johnson 15:13

But if we understand the the inerrancy of scripture and it's all revealing the mind of God, then there's going to be consistency and coherency with it, and that's what allows us to do systematic theology well.

Jeff 15:24

That's right. I had a an individual maybe a month ago in the orbit of my ministry uh talking about uh eternal security, perseverance of the saints, and said, Oh, you wrote a book on that. Well, I believe you can lose your salvation. I said, Well, why do you believe that? Well, because I think you know we're sinful and we're, you know, that God saves us, and then he kind of the rest of it's kind of up to us. And so, and you know, we I said, let's talk about that for a minute. I said, Let's talk about something more fundamental. Do you believe that the Bible teaches Jesus prays for us? He's at the right hand. Oh, yeah, he's the right hand of the Father praying for us? I said, right now. He said, Yeah, right now. I said, Well, you know, in John 17, the high priestly prayer, Jesus is praying for things, specific things there, and I think that's probably consistent with the way he's praying for us now, right? And yeah, yeah, yeah. I said, Well, don't you think that you believe Jesus is infallible? And I do. I said, Well, then do you believe Jesus gets his prayers answered? He said, I don't said, because if you lose your salvation, uh Jesus is fallible. Jesus prays for you, and yet you're stronger than him. You can snatch yourself out of his hands. And he said, I never thought about that.

Dr. Johnson 16:21

Yeah, and have you thought about he regenerated you? Right. Would he unregenerate you? He changed your heart, would he unchange he adopted you, would he unadopt you? Uh you know, and but all those doctrines are feeding together and weaving together, and unless when people start seeing that, they just understand the Bible better. But like I said, like the interstate system. When you read individuals first, it's just like, well, there's an interstate, there's it, well, there's a verse, there's a verse. Well, when you start doing systematic theology, you say, wait a minute, these things fit together and I understand it a lot better. So that's a great value of systematic theology.

Jeff 16:58

Well, he this guy came back later and said, you know what, I've thought about that and I've read the Bible and I read a couple of things you you recommended. I think I agree with you. And I said, Well, the Bible, like you said, it's not a it's not it's not a collection of disjointed stories, like you have Daniel on the lines, then you have Jonah, you've got Joseph, you've got Job, you've got Jesus, you've got and those are just some cute stories that we read in a Bible story book, you know, when we're four years old. These are they're all connected, really communicating one uh you know, one message of redemption uh and and uh uh understanding how to put it together. It's like a puzzle. You put it together and it does fit together, and then now you start to understand the Bible accurately. What what do what do you say to, and I know you've heard this argument probably your whole teaching career uh and pastoring careers, the Bible's not a system. Don't give me any systems. The Bible doesn't, you're pressing a system on the Bible, and you say systematic theology.

Dr. Johnson 17:51

Well, I usually tell them, you know, what you don't like about what I'm doing is it's my system and not yours, because you're doing the same thing. Uh they have a system. There is nothing wrong with having a system. Uh as I said, we think rationally and coherently. Everybody has a system, whether they understand it or not. The question is, did our system grow out of the scriptures, or did we get it a priori and then try to impose it on the scriptures? So anytime, and I certainly did tell my students quite often, when somebody says, Well, that's just a system you've got, basically what they're telling you is I just like my system more than yours, and I don't even realize that I've got one. Um so y you know, i i what we ha do have to make sure in systematic theology, and that's just a matter of hermeneutics, not his not just systematic theology, that we do not impose meaning on the text, but that we seek to uh develop a system, you know, coming out of the text uh and we use it to develop the the the system. So what they would basically be saying is you're saying God doesn't think systematically. You know. No, he does. He does think consistently, and he gave us the scriptures and gave us a mind to think coherently. And again, they're doing the same thing. I mean, uh i as you said, that you just ask them a couple of questions, they start doing theology, and you say, Well, you're imposing a system. So usually when a person says that, as I said, they're they're just saying, you're imposing a system and I'm not. And the fact is they are. Uh we have a system, but we want it to be drawn from the text and not imposed on the text.

Jeff 19:29

That's right. And I found, and I'm sure you have too, that when when and this is true of me, back three decades ago when I started studying the Bible seriously, I've been taught the stories of the Bible and all those things, sort of disconnected, disjointed kind of way, uh, flannel graph kind of way. I call you remember flannel graph uh thoughts about Old Testament stories especially, but once I began to see the dots connecting, and I began to start understand, I understand the whole Bible. I remember I'd read through, I tried to read through the Bible in a year. I did that. I've probably tried that 40 times before. And I get to Leviticus. And you get to Leviticus, and uh it's pretty hard-sledding if you don't think about it in terms of Jesus, in terms of, say, the book of Hebrews. And and uh but once I began to see, I mean, now obviously all the dots connected, it's glorious. And it changes because the Bible, I tell people, the Bible is only about a handful of things. It's mainly about man's sin and God's grace, and really that's the overarching thing, creation, fall, and redemption, new creation. That's it. That's what it's all, and all of it fits somewhere in there, and you've got to ask what time it is and all those things. And it's really much more simple. Why do you think the Bible, why why have evangelicals made the Bible much more difficult to understand than I mean, there are places Peter said, Paul, brother Paul writes things that are hard to understand. I'm praise God for that, because I find but but on the whole, it's not it's not hard to understand uh uh in general. But why do you think we would have to do that?

Dr. Johnson 20:53

I get you get a good translation, it it is uh relatively easy to understand the main ideas. Of course, we distinguish between biblical theology and systematic theology. Biblical theology is sort of what's happening when you say you start and you start reading and you start to see how these stories fit together. You know, that's more biblical theology. Biblical theology just sort of as opposed to systematic theology. Biblical theology is just saying, let's see what God revealed

The Bible And The Case For Systems

Dr. Johnson 21:20

to people at any given time and see how it developed, like for instance, through the covenants or whatever else.

Jeff 21:27

That's right.

Dr. Johnson 21:28

Uh and so they never ask the question doing biblical theology, how do these things fit together except in a timeline for it? Right. You know, and that's why biblical the you you don't you don't have the word trinity in biblical theology because it doesn't mention the trinity. But systematic theology looks at the doctrines of the scripture, and if you hold to the doctrines of what they do, that that there is only one God. God the Father is God, God the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is the God. Is God. God the Father and God the Holy Spirit and Son of the Holy Spirit are all different persons. Okay? If you hold to those beliefs which are all very clearly taught in the scripture, you have a doctrine of the Trinity. And that's what theologians, so it's a it's a theological, the word is a theological construct that comes out of the Bible by studying it systematically. What does it t say about God? What does it say about Jesus? What does it say about the Holy Spirit? How do we make a coherent statement about all these? By using a word like Trinity. And so biblical theology will just sort of trace the history of what I'm saying, just you you have to be able to do that to do the systematic theology well. You have to see that historical line that God is using. But then you say, you know, let me take what Jesus said about God and what Paul said or about the sovereignty of God, what Peter said about it, what David says about it here, and then make some kind of coherent statements about it, and then that's doing systematic theology.

Jeff 22:59

Well, if if uh you have a young pastor, you you you've you've spent a lot of you've spent a lot of your life in academia, but you're by no means uh merely an academician. You've spent a lot your academics have been in service of the local church and you have served in local churches preaching for years and years and years. So you brought this to the to the local church. So this question uh a young pastor comes to you, he's in his first pastor, and he said, I'm at first Baptist of X in South Carolina. You know, I've got 50 or 60 people, they don't know beans about theology, they don't really even want theology, they say, but I want to teach them theology without them knowing it, maybe exactly. Where would you start? How would you advise that young man to start helping sort of building in them, they're eager to study the Bible, they say, but building them about appreciation, even if they don't call it that, a love for what the Bible teaches, these these connections in the Bible called doctrines.

Dr. Johnson 23:52

Well, you you can preach doctrinal sermons. I mean, I'm I'm big into expository preaching. Right. But if you're just gonna do a doctrinal sermon, you just can't get one passage that deals with everything that the Bible's gonna say about the holiness of God. You know, so there can be doctrinal preaching where a person's bringing all that in and they don't know it by that name. You know, and so that's uh helpful. In fact, uh I I looked at the title of a of a book just the other day. It was the importance, I this is not the exact title, but it was something like the importance of systematic theology in preaching. You know, because when you're on preaching on a doctrine or even a text, it helps you bring uh other ideas about that from the text into a coherent system with it. And so it's uh I have found systematic theology to help me tremendously in expository preaching. But if you take books like um uh James Montgomery Boyce and he had the big uh what was the name of his big sort of systematic like it was he did it in he did it in sermons, right? The doctrine of the wholeness of God, and you look and say he didn't just do a chap, it was actually a sermon on the church.

Jeff 25:00

It's very unique and that's very helpful. That's it's one of my favorite systems.

Dr. Johnson 25:05

And we can and we can do that. You can you you can integrate it into preaching um in uh in in in a way that they can understand. And and it is it it is for us theologians, I I don't know how many times I've had people say, you know, the pastor said a professor was coming to speak next Sunday and I almost didn't come because I wasn't going to understand a thing he was saying. You know, and we so found out we thank you that we could understand everything, you know. Uh and so we do have to put it on their level, right? But I think preaching doctrinal sermons uh will actually do that when they're not you're not using the word doctrine, you're not using the word theology, you're just preaching on these doctrines that they've known and loved and allow them to see how this relates uh to a consistent understanding of the scripture on a s on a specific topic. So um I certainly wouldn't tell him to just start talking systematic theology to them.

Jeff 25:54

Right. Right. We a good example of this, we uh I belong to uh my family belongs to Abner Creek Baptist Church out in Greer, and I'm privileged to serve and teach there and preach there on occasion. Uh uh, but we had Bruce Ware from Southern Seminary Louisville, my alma mater, you know Bruce, uh came down uh and preached for us. He'd done a uh a Southern Miss alumni event at the church, and then and then he preached on Sunday for uh uh for the for the the populace of the church. And it's funny how I had two or three people last week say to me, you know, I was dreading him. These were older people. They said, I heard Seth professor of theology and he'd written a stack of books this time, and I thought, boy, this is gonna be dry, and this is gonna be boring. And so in about 55 minutes, he preached the entire book of Job. And in that preaching, he got they got the problem of evil over against the sovereignty of God, the responsibility of man, and how to how to apply all that in life. And he didn't say that necessarily, but they got it and they're raving about it. And these are people who have not set foot in a seminary, and they loved it. And it I had uh one man tell me last week, he said, I just I want basically my Bible more and more. And he was, of course, very Bruce is very passionate. Yes. Uh he's not uh a dead preacher, and the longer he preached, the more passionate he became, and just uh got stronger and stronger. But that to me, I thought this is how you do it. Yes, this is how you do it. He didn't use all you know the big language a lot, but I mean he said what he needed to say. And let's say you're preaching Galatians 3, 21, the end of the chapter, and it speaks of

How To Learn Theology As A Layperson

Jeff 27:25

justified by faith more than once. Well, there you go. There's your opportunity to unpack the doctrine of justification by faith of which the reformers said the on which the the the the church uh stands or falls, the standing or falls. I think Luther said that, or the hinge on which all of Christianity swings, I think Calvin said. And so, yeah, that you're right. You preach from those texts and unpack that, and they just sits in the Bible. Now, what about okay, someone listening to this, they say, okay, I'm convinced. You're right. Theology is for everyone, but I don't know. Beans about theology, I don't know where to start. I've got a I've got the Bible, it's 66 books, and and I like it and I believe it. But I I want to start I want to start right now learning more about how this fits together. Where how how would you advise them? Where should they start learning theology? It's a lay person.

Dr. Johnson 28:15

Yeah, and like I said, there's just there's a lot of good books out there that weren't there when I was coming along. I'm thankful that they're there now. Uh the ones that I have tended and I'm just more familiar with, for instance, the the uh textbooks that I used in teaching theology, uh sometimes I I used um Erickson's large systematic theology, and sometimes Grudom's systematic theology. Well both of those uh books have abridged uh versions to them that are much uh you know it's more elementary, easy to understand, and those kinds of things are a good place to start. Now there are uh uh companies that publish books just from individual doctrines that are that are you know, you can get them some that are very uh scholarly and you get some that aren't. So I I think I think material is out there to look at, but that's sort of the two that I looked at because you know I'm a Baptist, they're Baptist. I agree with most everything that they say in there. So I can I can recommend those, but those are relatively easy books to follow.

Jeff 29:23

And one thing that's uh that's uh grown up uh in in both my my life and ministry and yours too, a little a little later, has been the internet, of course. There's a lot just scads of good resources on the internet and sermons. Now you have to be careful because there's a lot of charlatans out, there's a lot of false teaching. And and one thing we want to do here at the Courtier, if you're listening to this and you have questions, contact us uh and we'll we'll put you in. We'll we'll we'll talk to you and we'll launch and we'll talk to you. We'll be glad to recommend things or say, you know, and I've had people say, What do you what about this book saying, no, no, stay away from that. That's uh you know, that's some false teaching, that's terrible. Uh and and we're we're happy to help. And we're you know, we're seeking to produce magazines and resources uh or books that that fit that uh that are part of this vision to to make everyone a good theologian. Again, not uh ready to teach in a seminary or anything like that. We don't want it to stay in the seminary or at North Greenville College or University, we want it to be in the hearts and minds of church people in the lives of their people everywhere.

Dr. Johnson 30:20

And it's a great blessing when you have students that come through your program. Right and then they're fine you find out they're able actually to do that. You see things that they post and they have used solid theology to expose erroneous and heretical theory. Then they're at they they they can do it on their own after a while.

Jeff 30:38

That's right.

Dr. Johnson 30:38

And that's that's when you sort of know you've come full circle.

Jeff 30:42

Well, if we uh we could talk about this all day and today and tomorrow because I just uh I love this topic, you do too. Uh but unfortunately we've got to wrap up uh and uh but we will take it up again in the future. We're doing a uh what we're doing here is uh every everyone's a theologian. It's gonna be a an occasional series on doctrines. We're gonna uh Travis and I, Walter and I, or maybe even the three of us will unpack doctrines kind of in order systematically over the next couple of years uh on occasion. Not every not every career conversations, but once in a while and uh and kind of unpack them in 25 minutes or so and give you some some resources. We'll post a list of resources and things like that, with an aim of of making uh us uh uh good theologians and loving God better because the sound theology leads to doxology, as Paul's writings show us.

Dr. Johnson 31:28

Yeah, somebody somebody said remember theology is just the map. Don't confuse the map with reality. Amen. You know, a lot of people know theology and care about theology, but they don't know the God that's behind it. So it's only a map that points us in the direction, and if it doesn't lead us to genuine worship and service, then we have not properly understood.

Jeff 31:48

That is a wise, that is wise counsel, that is absolute true, and that is a great place to do it. Thank you for listening to this podcast of the Baptist Career and Career Hosting. Be sure to follow us on all social media platforms, give us a five-star review, and send any questions you want us to consider career conversations at gmail.com. If you prefer to watch our conversations, check us out on YouTube by clicking the link in the description.