93. Real Talk with Senior Living Female CEOs

In this deeply inspiring and candid conversation, host Amber Bardon sits down with three powerhouse CEOs—Nicole Gann, Sue Verdegem, and Sondra Norder—for an honest dialogue about what it really means to be a woman in leadership. From accidental paths to the C-suite, to the very real challenges faced in male-dominated environments, this episode is filled with heartfelt reflections, strategic wisdom, and empowering encouragement. 

This episode is a powerful reminder that behind every woman CEO is a rich story of persistence, self-discovery, and trailblazing resilience. Whether you’re a woman in leadership now or just beginning your path, this episode will inspire you to lead with authenticity and boldness. 

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Transcript

Amber Bardon: Nicole Gann, welcome to the show. Sue Verdegem. Thank you. I'm also happy to be here. And then we also have Sondra Norder. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much. So I would love to have each of you give our listeners a little bit more background on you. So today's topic is Women in Leadership, and we're all CEOs of organizations as women.
And I want to first ask each of you to talk about your journey. So let's dive in a little bit individually and hear about how did you become a CEO and anything you wanna share on your journey that you feel was different in your experience coming from a female versus a male perspective. Sandra, let's start with you.
Alright, 
Sondra Norder: Back in high school I knew I wanted to work in healthcare. I assumed that I was just gonna go to UW [00:02:00] Madison and become a doctor. And then I I worked at Pizza Hut. My friend cut her finger open on a can of black olives and was bleeding all over the place and I passed out.
So that's when I realized being a clinician was not in my future. And I found UW Eau Claire's Healthcare Administration Degree program. And I was like, oh, that sounds good. It's in healthcare, it's what I wanna do, but it's not. Dealing with blood and focuses more on leadership. At the time, I had no idea that Eau Claire's program focused on nursing home administration.
The course program was healthcare administration, so there was, I had no inkling and I didn't have grandparents growing up, unfortunately. They were just not part of my life and I had never been in a nursing home before. So it was a little daunting but I ended up going through with it and falling in love with it.
So I got my degree in nursing home administration. Went to work as a nursing home administrator for several years and then decided to go to grad school of some sort. Ended up going to law school at Marquette, got my law degree. [00:03:00] And upon graduation I knew I didn't wanna.
Really practice law as my primary career. And so I got recruited to St. Paul Elder Services to be the chief operating officer. Which I was in that role for about two, two and a half years. And then I was promoted to be the CEO and it was a situation where the previous CEO was a man and he was asked to step down so that the board could promote me into the CEO role.
So it was a big milestone for me as a female leader and female CEO. But that's how I became the CEO here. And I I'm so glad to be here and, to continue to be able to do this. 
Amber Bardon: I've known you a long time, Sandra, but I don't think I knew your entire story, so that was really great to hear.
How many years ago was that? That I joined St. Paul Services. 
Sondra Norder: Yeah. And then you moved into the CEO role. So it'll be 11 years in May that I've been the CEO and it'll be 15 years in October that I've been with St. Paul. Elder [00:04:00] services. 
Amber Bardon: Okay. Wow. 
Sondra Norder: All right. 
Amber Bardon: Sue, you're up next. 
Sue Verdegem: My undergraduate degree was in business administration with a focus on accounting.
And I worked as a CFO for many years at a retirement community. I was very happy in that role and I was very happy with that community and I. One day I was driving home from work and a peer called me up and said, Hey, United Zion just fired their and you would be so perfect for that community.
And so all of a sudden I. Was thinking, do I wanna be a CEO or am I happy where I'm at? So I talked with my family, prayed about it, and eventually applied for the position and and was hired, was fortunate enough to be hired. That was about seven years ago. So I walked into a community. I'm in Lancaster [00:05:00] County.
We're a rather conservative area, and I walked into one of the communities. I would say the most conservative community or maybe the second most conservative community in Lancaster County, and we were the only community that had a female CEO and a female chair of the board. I. And we really had wanted to talk about that more, maybe put out some press releases about it, but chose not to because we were concerned
the bishop of the church that sponsors us might not have appreciated the emphasis on how females were leading within their church sponsored group. So I've been here seven years and don't regret coming at all. 
Amber Bardon: Oh wow. Do you think looking back that was the right decision or do you wish you would've gone ahead and published and talked about it more?
Sue Verdegem: I think it was the right decision for the organization. Maybe not for me, but I think it was the right [00:06:00] decision for the organization. 
Amber Bardon: Interesting. Okay. Well Thanks for sharing and Nicole, let's hear your story. 
Nicole Gann: I always say mine's a little bit more unstructured and it, when I look back on it, it isn't always planned.
I came out with a similar degree to Sue, a Bachelor's of business administration, focus in finance, and I went into manufacturing and was hired from an internship that I had and really saw my life kind of climbing the corporate ladder, but it was predominantly in a male dominated environment.
And so I definitely developed tenacity, resilience to get ahead with no clear goal of where ahead was. I just knew that I wanted to compete with the boys, right? Because that was what was, valued. And by accident. Several years later, when my location closed, I got a call from a former boss who said, come help me out in a nursing home.
And I was like. Absolutely not. This is not part of [00:07:00] my future. And so I always say I got here by accident, but I stayed by choice and here we are 25 years later and IW was not ready for the stark reality of going from a Fortune 100 manufacturing into not-for-profit healthcare. And I still didn't have a clear identity of.
I'm going to grow up one day to be the CEO. I think that what this environment allowed me to do was use all the skills that I had harnessed and in all the ways that an organization, such as a single site not-for-profit healthcare needs. And I came as risk compliance and HR and I eventually grew into vice president of finance and administrative services.
We go through a merger. I'm the vice President of HR and I end up serving 12 years total for that organization and then was recruited by Fowler to be their CFO, and I didn't wanna be that either. I don't know how this happens, but I [00:08:00] end up getting into roles that I don't necessarily wanna be, but I am good at, and it's more about being called to help a mission.
I prioritize that more than maybe sometimes my own needs. Early on in my career, I. So I came to Fowler almost 13 years ago, have served as the CFO and then by default we consolidated positions, let someone go. I became the COO and then our CEO transitioned six years after my arrival and the board asked me to be the CEO.
And it's fascinating because I feel like I'm where I needed to be and can influence and impact the organization in a positive way, but I'm always. Marveling at my unawareness when I was climbing that ladder. So I wanted to get ahead, but not a clear direction. And that kind of, surprises me. I remember even saying, you know what?
I'm happy being in number two. And I think that was a little bit of, fear or hesitation, of what it would be [00:09:00] like to be that person at the top, not. Having all the answers, not knowing you know, where you're gonna go. But now that I'm here, I love it. But it was an unstructured arrival to this destination, and I've been fortunate that this industry has allowed me to follow an unstructured pattern and garner those skills that I think, helps me be the leader I am today.
Amber Bardon: I know all of you obviously, and so fortunate to have you as I would say, almost women colleagues and mentors in my life. But it's really, I love hearing a little bit more in depth of each of your stories. So yeah this podcast is such a great opportunity to just be able to share those stories with the world and then just to learn more about each other as well.
One thing that I wanna talk about that is. Kind of one of the core reasons why I wanna do this podcast in the first place is I feel like. Being, the challenges of being a female CEO are not discussed a lot of times, and I know that there are avenues to do that. And I think when [00:10:00] we were planning for this podcast, we had talked about which, which of us have actually talked about this topic specifically before.
And I think Nicole, you were the only one who really has spoken out about it and I think, the more we can have these conversations and acknowledge what some of the challenges are and share some of our personal stories, the more we can help enable the next generation of women leaders.
To normalize and talk about some of the experiences that we've had. So I would really love to hear from each of you any experiences that you've had that you'd like to share personal experiences along your journey or something that you feel would've potentially not have happened to you if you were a male, CEO, and then just any outcomes or lessons learned from those experiences.  
Sondra Norder: When I was approached by the St. Paul Elder Services Board about becoming the CEO, the board chair made it very clear that's what he wanted.
Didn't think initially that I had anything to worry about in that regard. But then as we were getting close to finalizing the [00:11:00] agreement, he came to my office and he said, just one, one more thing that I feel I need to do before we, make this official.
I, I need to just walk around and talk to staff and make sure that you're not an old battle ax. And I remember that just hitting me so hard. Like I, I was just taken aback. And he was, uh, in his early seventies at that time, was a local prominent businessman. And that was probably my first experience of okay, like what do I do in this situation that isn't going to like.
Cost me this job potentially, but also makes my feelings clearer about it. And so I ended up talking with actually my other boss at the time who was a Catholic sister and, just shared that discomfort and she basically said he's old school, just ignore it. And I think she very much felt sympathetic [00:12:00] about it, about the situation, but just wanted me to.
To brush it under the rug. And so that time I said, okay, I'll just leave it alone, chalk it up to he's just old school. I ended up getting the job. Everything was good. But that, that still sits with me and I share that example fairly regularly with others. Another situation was much more recently I was pursuing, getting my, fellowship in the American College of Healthcare Executives, the F-A-C-H-E credential. And part of that is you have to take a Board of Governors exam. And so there was this prep course that was being held in Atlanta. And so I went to this prep course and this wasn't a conference of. Aging services leaders who I knew, this was just people from all around the country who were planning on taking their board exam and were there to study basically.
So I didn't know any of these people. There was there was a classroom of us basically at a conference center. And I was sitting, I [00:13:00] happened to be sitting next to a a gentleman who was an army or a military officer. He worked at a VA hospital. And this group of people was like, doctors, lawyers military officers, really senior ranking people in healthcare organizations who are taking this exam.
I happened to be sitting next to this military officer who was wearing a short sleeve shirt. He was in, in military uniform, and his arms were tattooed with like military creeds and stuff, clearly visible tattoos. I also have a couple of tattoos, one of which is on my shoulder, and it was like 90 degrees in Atlanta at that time.
So I was wearing a top that had a little bit looser top on it. And my shoulder tattoo was peeking out. And during a break, this gentleman, who I did not know, came up behind me. I wasn't even aware that he was coming up behind me. He had a can of cold soda in his hand and he put it on my skin and [00:14:00] it startled me.
And I turned around and I was like, what are you doing? And he said, oh, I was just seeing if that tattoo would protect you from this cold soda. I was like, what? I was just absolutely flabbergasted at what was happening. And I said to, and the gentleman who was sitting next to me was still sitting next to me and I said, why didn't you do it to him?
Because his tattoos are showing too. Why didn't you do this to him? And he just kinda looked at me and I said, it's because you would never do that to a man, right? And he said, yeah. And. He was like, I'm so sorry. And I was like, like I'm hesitant to accept your apology right now because I'm just so taken aback, but I will accept it as long as you promise me you're gonna take this back to your team and share it and tell the people on your team the lesson out of this.
If you wouldn't do it to a man, don't do it to a woman either. Again, just one of those things that it was literally a choice between him doing [00:15:00] it to a man or a woman. And he decided it to me. So not something that generally happens to, to males. And, honestly, I think things that happen at conferences can be much more uncomfortable for women. There I have several examples of things that happened at conferences where people are drinking and stuff that again, just I do, I doubt what happened to a male. So the only other thing that I would share is that I. Was passed over for a promotion back before my time with St.
Paul Alder Services, I worked for a for-profit nursing home chain. I was a candidate for a regional director of operations position. After serving as a nursing home administrator with that company for 10 years, every single one of my directors of nursing that ever worked with me had been promoted into a regional clinical position.
And when it came my turn to get promoted, I got passed over for a man who was less experienced and less educated than I was. [00:16:00] And after that situation I told myself I am 100% committed to making sure that women are at the top in long-term care. Aging services is built on the backs of women and people of color, and we need to fight to make sure that women and people of color are in leadership positions.
And it's just been the, one of the. Motivating forces behind my support for and development of women leaders around me. I. 
Amber Bardon: Oh wow. Thank you so much for sharing those stories. And I was thinking that the difference between your first story and your second story is how you were probably a lot more comfortable in your role, right?
Like the first time you probably felt like you couldn't really speak up and you were counseled not to speak up, and that's just the way it is. And then the second scenario you actually felt enabled to to educate the person that you interacted with. So it is interesting how we can become more comfortable and more aware.
Of these things as we move through these experiences, so thank you for sharing that. Nicole, [00:17:00] let's hear more, a little bit more about your journey. 
Nicole Gann: I think what I would add to that is I. My own examination of myself between what you described as Saundra's first experience and the last experience, and how we become more comfortable saying that this is unacceptable. Because I think in the time that I came up in the workforce, you didn't talk about your feelings.
You didn't push back. You really had to adopt what would be predominantly considered masculine. Tendencies. You don't show emotions, you don't cry, you just take it on the chin. It is like the, in Texas they call it the good old boy network, right? And that's what you're expected to assimilate to.
And then some of that doesn't even apply to. Traditional ways that we would treat people, right? In a way it robs you of your femininity or the things that are natural to you as a woman. And I think when I examine myself, it's like then I started doing that to myself. [00:18:00] I started, minimizing my own need to speak up for myself or my own awareness to be authentic to what.
My natural tendency would've been, I'm not necessarily a crier. I'm not saying that I just naturally wanted to cry all the time, but I wanted to naturally be myself and show my emotions and that be okay. My experience is women are really. Villainized for their emotions, good and bad. If you are too non-caring and you don't show anything, then you're considered robotic, or you're considered bitchy.
Or you're considered unfeeling. And then if you lean into let me show you my feminine qualities, and maybe I get emotional or maybe, I'm more nurturing. Than some of my male counterparts. And then it's you can't lead because you're so worried about, everybody's feelings.
And there, in my experience, there isn't always a blending appreciation of who you are as a [00:19:00] person. I don't see that with my male counterparts. I see them more heralded for who just they are naturally. And then the women in my circle more scrutinized for it as if they're trying to catch us showing up wrong or doing something wrong, or being able to capture some evidence of why women should not lead a company, or why they shouldn't be leaders. Like I've had, people on board say, this is why, women aren't made to, handle this level of stress. So for me, looking back on that, there are a couple of things that I think were very pivotal in how I changed that and being introduced to Rene Brown's work and the power of vulnerability.
I. And being able to understand what true vulnerability was, and then leading that towards me being my real authentic self. I think those are the things that started to spur the empowerment that Sandra talks about in how you speak up for yourself in a way that is respectful, but it's also setting very [00:20:00] clear, healthy boundaries.
And in a way it's helping people. Take accountability for how they're showing up with you as well, because that's how we really change, behavior. So in doing that, I just finally came to a conclusion where I. I'm gonna be myself, and it's not gonna be some people's cup of tea. Some people think I'm too loud, I'm too demonstrative, I'm too colorful in my language and my clothing.
And some people totally get it. And what I've learned is it's fine because that's the way it's always been. But it was changing the narrative in my head. That didn't get indoctrinated into what I was being exposed to and let that be more of my own leader and my own voice to say, here's how I'm gonna show up in the world.
And for me, when you make those micro shifts in the way you show up and think, it's like a vibration that goes out and people assimilate to, even if it's not directly. It [00:21:00] is almost like a force field, if you will, that they understand this is how it happens in this force field around Nicole per se. And then they just, do things naturally. And I've seen people, act completely different. It's people that I thought were inappropriate or just jerky show up in a completely different way and that, so I recognize that so much of it is. What I thought and what I brought, to the situation.
And so I think in a way that is very freeing because I don't think women give themself enough freedom to be in their total fullness. I think we're always worried about is this too much? Do am I, talking too much? Am I monopolizing this? Am I creating space for others? And for me as a leader, that's been big lessons is to say, I can occupy as much space.
I. My needs matter as much, not more than, but certainly not less than. And I think that, that was an [00:22:00] epiphany for me because of my own personal health crisis that I started realizing I matter as much. And I think what I would say to any listener and especially the women leaders, is really examine yourself and then expect the journey to be in levels.
Because you're always making these discoveries about yourself. I hope that you're never done evolving yourself, but you're your biggest advocate. You're your biggest voice, and you might also be your biggest detractor by just what you think in your brain that nobody else is, involved in. Because I think women analyze.
The environment ourselves. We scrutinize ourselves, we judge ourselves, and I want everybody to have freedom from that because that can be part of the dynamics that we deal with too. 
Amber Bardon: I made a couple notes while you were talking. I wanna comment on, so your first comment. I, one of my favorite things is going on social media and seeing a post or something about a man reacting in a very emotional way.
And then the comments being [00:23:00] like, he's too emotional to be a leader. Just 
Turning the table on that. So I love to see those kind of comments. And then I'm not sure I'm a TikTok addict. I don't know if you guys are on TikTok, but there was this trend I think it was over the winter that was women in male fields.
Is any, did any of you guys see that? Okay, Sandra, you did? Yeah. That was my favorite trend ever. I absolutely loved it. So what it was is women were posting things that men had actually done to them as if they were doing it. And what was so amazing about that trend is that. So many women were able to relate to these shared experiences.
Just people just posting all these things and just being like, that is exactly what happened to me. Or all of these things have happened to me, so Nicole, I think going back to your point, like having these conversations, like seeing this stuff on social media, talking about it here, it helps normalize it so that other women can realize that we're not alone in these experience that we have, and it can help change the narrative.
Going back to my, my, the third thing I wanted to say is, the standards that you're talking about and how there [00:24:00] are different standards where women have to think about things in a different way with our behavior or our speech, or the way we look in a way that men never have to think about.
But again, the more we can talk about this together and normalize it and let other women know that we're all feeling this way, I think the more we can change that narrative. 
Nicole Gann: You're so right. Amber, and I think it is so powerful and that requires a lot of vulnerability, to put yourself out there because, you asked a question about what it's like to be a leader a little while ago, and it can be very isolating.
I think that's true regardless of gender. But I think what's compounding for that for women is that the isolation can lead to a narrative that you're the only one. You're the only one that thinks like this, acts like this, reacts like this has these problems, and the power you get from that broader community that you're mentioning is really transformational.
And it does normalize it. I love, you know how you said that, because the more and more I talk to women's groups, we have so many things in common and we're [00:25:00] looking for that voice that we can relate to that gives us that freedom to walk through that next door. And that's the power of what you're creating in the communities, that you're creating as well and these amazing women that are on that podcast.
To the women. 
Amber Bardon: Yeah. Here's to the women. All right. 
Nicole Gann: Yeah. 
Sue Verdegem: It's a great segue to you, Sue. So much of what you're saying, I've experienced, like Nicole you talked a little bit about, 
almost try to pretend you are a man to be accepted to be.
Part of whatever. And I can remember in my life similar to you, I, I had I had a child pass away and all of a sudden I realized I had to pay more attention to me. I had to allow the emotional parts of my personality to be alive, to be real. And I felt like for maybe the first half of my career, I just almost I don't wanna necessarily say I pretended to be a man, but I really did.
Kind [00:26:00] of try to reflect those personalities. I definitely when Sandra was talking about, her being promoted and how you confront things in the community and how you confront things at conferences sometimes are different. Sometimes your work environment, it's not as easy to confront, my office is very accessible to residents. I don't know how many times when I'm here, a little late at night, someone will stop by and say, what is your husband doing for dinner tonight? I. I don't know how to tell you, but I don't cook Monday through Friday. So he is preparing something and he's gonna keep it warm for me.
But it's that assumption that, that's my role. And you just have that constant, a assumption of roles and that you have a different role. And I think even as a woman, I am challenged to look at people and see their skillset. Not like their age, not their gender, not I. Not anything else, but [00:27:00] to really look at people and recognize and see their skillset.
To really be able, as a woman to say, these are the areas I'm strong in and these are the areas that I need my team members to help me. 'cause I'm not as I'm not as strong. And just to pull gender out of it to me is something I'm learning to walk through. 
Amber Bardon: Sue I, I resonate with your comment about, what's your husband doing for dinner?
One of the things that really annoys me is when I see praise for men for doing very normalized things like brushing their daughter's hair or, doing something that a woman does every single day. And I think that all ties to a lot of other topics that we won't get into here, like weaponized incompetence and things like that.
But I just wanna share a couple of experiences of my own as well. A couple years ago, so I've been a founder CEO for almost 10 years. And so this would've been a couple years into that with one of our clients that we had taken on. And the CEO there was, he retired shortly after this occurred, [00:28:00] but we had started the contract a couple months previously, and I was told he wanted to have a meeting with me.
So we get on a meeting and the purpose of the meeting I found out is that he told me I need to smile more and I need to learn to be nicer. And going back to, your initial story, Sandra, is, the person who had set up the call, which was the director of finance who was a man. When I told him what happened, he was like, oh, he's just like that.
'cause I said something like, he wouldn't have said this. To a man and he brushed it off and was like, oh no, I don't think it's that. And I was like, really? 'cause I think it's that. But, similar again to your story, I didn't really feel at the time that I could have said something directly to him, a couple years into being a CEO or a new company.
It's a new client. And I think today I definitely would've reacted differently. And then I've also had several experiences, again, being a female in tech where I've been in a room with some clients. And it's myself and some of my male coworkers and I'm explaining something to a male audience and I've had this happen more than once, where they will look at me with just a completely blank [00:29:00] look.
And then I've had my male coworkers say the exact same thing and they go, oh, okay. And so sometimes they make a joke that they have to say it in their man voice to be heard. Everything you, you just shared all three of you was just so amazing. And I love that we're able to get to this level of depth in this podcast and again, help share these experiences.
So the next question I wanna ask you about is, I'm just curious, what do you think are the unique challenges that we face as women leaders? Either from your personal experience or, just. How you think that, the world is in general or what the expectations are. So what are some of those things that you think are unique, and then how do you think that strengthens you as a leader and contributes to your company culture?
 Nicole, let's start with you. 
Nicole Gann: Unique challenges. I always like to say opportunities, right? Instead of challenges. 'cause I believe so much in the power of the words and what it evokes in my brain, and then therefore emotions, but.
If I'm [00:30:00] being completely optimistic and thinking about it from an abundance mindset, we are in a unique time in the world where our voices are magnified in ways they've never been my entire career, specifically as it relates to women. I think we're also in a unique time where we've got so many millennials in the world, and I think as a woman leader, recognizing that I have some of those innate nurturing tendencies that are for me.
Probably magnified more because I didn't have any natural children of my own. I had the privilege of raising, my niece from the fifth grade to the ninth grade, which anybody that's had a girl would tell you that I signed up for the wrong period of time. But that's what I got. So that was like my motherhood thing.
And I've always thought about the people that work for me in a mothering, nurturing kind of way, and. When you think of, millennials, who my niece was one of, they definitely respond, to that approach. And I think women maybe have a little bit of an advantage, as it [00:31:00] relates to that.
I think also the challenge we have of so many complex problems and not all the answers. Again, I think lends to what I as a woman have done my whole life, which is just figure out solutions, right? We tend to be so multitasked and in our personal lives, our community lives, and then in our professional lives that it now is just this meta skill that transfers to all three.
It's okay, what's the biggest priority for today? How do I just compartmentalize? And then start handling that while still being able to, talk about the big picture, still make it look easy, still make it fun, and I think about even what you've heard described by all of us today, how we've used humor to diffuse uncomfortable situations.
Humor can be very disarming in extremely acutely stressful situations too. So if we take those things that were born out of discomfort [00:32:00] and now we're using them for good. I think then that transforms the circumstances, that we face. I think that if I'm being pessimistic, we're still, I think for the rest of my career I'll be fighting against those stereotypes.
I'll be fighting against what I described earlier. I. Of really being in an open situation that even if I am my natural self criticism, even if I assimilate to the culture or the environment, I am criticism and still having to constantly work for myself to say, you know what? That's not my work. The opinions of others is not really my work to do.
It's good to have as an awareness as a leader, I think, so that you can infuse your. Remarks your communications to combat things that you see. That's like the indirect approach. But my work to do is to stay completely aligned with who I am, completely aligned with what my natural talents are, [00:33:00] completely aligned with what.
My shortcomings are so that I reach out, I get help, I ask for help. I normalize that too because I think generally as leaders and non-gender specific, we don't always wanna ask for help. We feel like we have to know all the answers, so I hope that I. We're normalizing asking for help and inviting people into, the solution.
But I really think there's a lot of great opportunities that we are already naturally inclined for. So I'm excited about that and I'll take the problems of tomorrow when they happen and, I'll apply all this wisdom that supposedly I've gotten with age because the other things coping with age are not my fa like gravity.
But I'll apply that wisdom to it and March forward. 
Amber Bardon: Wow. I love that. Be just aligned with who you are and just be yourself. And I feel like everybody, that's everybody's goal, right? Everybody has to go into therapy to try to mental health. Goal for everybody, and [00:34:00] it's so much easier said than done.
I think it, it is all about having, I think it is a challenge that women have that men don't, especially in leadership roles. And it is something that I see as just such a huge opportunity, a huge strength when you can finally get to that point. So Sandra let's hear a little bit from you.
Yeah. 
Sondra Norder: To to build off of what Nicole said found that. After really committing myself to what I feel is my true north which is calling out the patriarchy that holds women down even in a profession where the workforce is largely female. And I found that when I have, decided to speak up and say something. Whether it's about the good old boy network that has, dominated amongst our associations or whether it's me asking to be paid fairly in comparison to my male counterparts, I feel like I've always had to justify.
[00:35:00] Why I'm saying what I'm saying or asking for what I'm asking for, or pointing out what I'm pointing out. And I regularly just have to come back to my values and what is my true north, and just explain to people I'm not doing this. I'm not trying to be difficult for shits and giggles. I'm following what my values are and, um, building up on my own values, I feel such a strong obligation to speak and use my platform for not only those we serve, but those we employ, which is heavily dominated by women. So many are single women women who are socioeconomically disadvantaged and, just I think that we as women leaders have just more of a natural ability to represent those interests because so many of us have walked in those shoes before. It is just a challenge that I think all of [00:36:00] us are using us again to turn into an opportunity to, you know, just lift all boats.
Sue Verdegem: It is, it is sort of, um, that, that understanding that my success does not require your failure.
And I think women. Maybe understand that naturally better than men. We have a history. We're raising children. We want them to do better than us. So we're used to really reaching down to have people really understand there is plenty to go around just because I'm successful, I don't need to do it at your expense.
And so I can be a voice to our residents to our team members who sometimes need a voice. Just thinking about what you're saying, Sandra, about about being the voice for those women and that understanding of there's an abundance. So my success.
 Does [00:37:00] not require your failure. And I think when we look at the good old boys, a lot of times they're taking care of themselves, thinking if we succeed, it will be at their expense. It won't be. And I think we as women tend to understand that better the ability for abundance in the world, in careers.
Amber Bardon: Yeah, I mean that really resonates specifically in this time and place we are in politically, where we're seeing a lot of efforts put forth to remove women's rights. And I think because of that mindset that you're talking about, Sue, that if they have it, I have less, which of course is not the case.
Not the case. It's not the case. Yeah. So as we wrap up, I want to just cover one more question and we don't have to go into a lot of depth here, but I'm just curious, what are some of the strategies that you have used to navigate this world? And I know Nicole, earlier you said humor. Is one for you, which I love, sometimes I'm not sure everybody likes my humor, but one, one thing I like to do [00:38:00] is ask questions.
So I feel like, because, I feel like there is an awareness as a woman that you can't come across as too aggressive. Which I think we've all touched on that a little bit here. So I think asking questions for me is a way that I will try to get a point across without, with not trying to seem too aggressive, especially in a situation where you know that you are right.
And the other person is not, but you don't feel like you wanna come across as confrontational. So I'm just curious, what are some other strategies that you have used? 
Nicole Gann: I love questions and I think I've been really focused on the strategy of self-care and self permission, which seems less tactical than the questions, but.
Equally as valuable for me because I don't know if this is y'all's experience or not, but if I don't keep myself fed. On the things like Sandra talks about your true north, like I revisit my values every week and I say, did I show up as this person? And when I didn't, what was going [00:39:00] on And what might have led to that?
And it tends to be depletion that led to it. I'm overtired, I'm overextended, I'm over, holding space for others 'cause I haven't held space for myself. So one of the practices is keeping myself grounded and feeding myself. Self, my own hype stuff, if you will. And one of those things that's been so powerful to me and it's hanging in my office, and I was reminded of it when Sue made some of her comments.
I don't know if you all are familiar with Maryanne Williamson, but she wrote a poem called our Deepest Sphere. And so I read that, at least every week. I pulled it up on my phone. I'm happy to read it to you, Amber. I don't wanna, take up time. But it's, it is the biggest strategy that's been the single most thing that has transformed me because it gets me over that self-doubt that I talked about, right?
And it reminds me to be present, to be in there. Let other people's opinions and all of that be their work to [00:40:00] do. Just stay focused on your work and moving forward. And so it's one of those things I consume, regularly because of that. Because it's giving me powers to move beyond my fear to, she talks about our deepest fear is and our inadequacy.
It's that we're powerful beyond all measure. And for women, like what does that look like? And is anyone else intimidated when you think about stepping into the full power? Of capacity. Because we're so accustomed to dimming our lights, right? And so for me, and this is another passage from it, when we give ourselves permission to let our light shine, it automatically gives other people the same thing.
And Sue and Saundra, you both said versions of this, Saundra said, rising waters, all boats rise, right? Sue's talking about, being herself and giving that to others. Sandra, you're talking about giving voice to other women. In the industry. And so that our deepest fear by her is just so powerful, but it really is.
That's the [00:41:00] best strategy I want to leave people with is feed yourself consistently on the things that reinforce. How you wanna show up and what you wanna be, do not sacrifice that for the time of a financial report or an operational report because we are products of our environment, as you said, Amber.
And how much time are we giving ourselves to re socialize ourselves to the new doctrine? And escape the socialization done by the patriarchy because Sandra, I'm ready to go there with you on them. Okay. We should have a separate podcast to burn it all down to the ground how we reassemble.
Amber Bardon: Yeah. And I, I I love that you referenced a poem and I would love to do some follow up content on this, which is resources because reminding me, I dunno if you guys have read the book, the Power, it came out a couple years ago. It's little bit older book. It's a novel, it's a fictional novel, but it's about it's about women having the power to touch men and physically harm them.[00:42:00] 
It just comes from outta nowhere one day. And then it's set 300 years in the future where women are the dominant gender and they're like, storytelling this. And they don't the people in the story, they don't believe that men were ever the dominant gender. And it's really interesting.
That's a little bit of a tangent but I would love to have us link our favorite resources to share just poems and even stories and books and things like that. Sonder, what are your thoughts on some strategies? 
Sondra Norder: Yeah, again, really similar to Nicole books I just read a book called When Women Lead.
It's by Julia Borstein. I read it over the weekend just to see what kind of nuggets I would get out of it for this podcast. But also I engaged an executive coach probably about a year and a half ago. And in part that was because. Between Covid and then like just as Covid was starting to settle down, I had an accident and suffered a terrible injury.
And three years later I'm still undergoing surgeries and [00:43:00] recovery from that. And after, the first 20 years of my career were just like this. Trajectory upwards. All of a sudden I felt like I just hit a wall and like just lost my mojo and I needed a spark. And so I engaged in an executive coach, and she was absolutely life changing for me.
She was actually more of a overall life coach. She worked with Sora Norra, the human being, not just Sora, NORRA, the CEO, but she had me do an assessment called the Hogan Leadership. Series and it produced several different reports, but one of them really identified my values. And for me, I'm a person who I thrive on seeing things on paper kind of objectively understanding people or processes.
And so when I got that report and was able to just really reacquaint myself with my values. And the report was spot on, totally spot on in terms of what my values are. That was the spark that I [00:44:00] needed. So I really recommend executive coaching and doing some of those assessments to really reacquaint yourself with your own, strengths and goals.
And it, it really can provide that spark that, that is needed. Sometimes when you do feel like you've just hit a wall. 
Sue Verdegem: So it's just, it's so interesting to me as we talk, as I'm hearing Nicole and Sandra talk, I'm thinking, oh, that's exactly what, that's exactly what, so when I first moved into my CEO role, I did belong to an executive circle.
A group of executives that met. I believe we met quarterly for a period of just over a year. And it was just a great place to, to speak to understand myself better, which was helpful. I think as far as, we originally started talking about how do you negotiate through these struggles?
And I do feel like very much of what Nicole was saying about you, you have to have confidence in yourself. And I think [00:45:00] prior to this, as we were preparing for this podcast, we had a conversation where we talked about construction and some of the challenges from that industry. So when I came to United Zion, we were in the midst of a.
Of a construction project that was going very bad very quickly. It had poor contracts in place. It just, the list is unbelievable. But anyway, I was in the middle and had, was given the the first thing at the first board meeting when they're interviewing me, do you want to oversee construction?
Do you think you can do that? A little insulting to me and the answer then was. If I'm the CEO, I will oversee the project. That's what the CEO does. But I can remember, having a conversation with the owner of the construction project where he's saying you, he actually said to me, as a woman, you would not understand this.
That was a bad thing to say to me because I said, as a leader who has been involved in many [00:46:00] construction projects, I do understand this and this is what you will do. But it was that what Nicole's saying about. Confidence that I, I know construction. I may be in my high heels and big earrings today, but I know construction and you're not going to tell me how this project is going to run.
You are going to fulfill your obligations under this contract, and I'm going to fill my obligations as a CEO and hold you accountable. To be able to do that requires you knowing yourself, taking care of yourself, making sure you're not depleted, you're overtired, you're overextended you've gotta take care of yourself to be able to confront these.
'cause there are situations we as women confront it with that probably our male counterparts would not, a male in my position would never have had the construction manager say, as a man, you don't understand this. So I, I [00:47:00] do feel like that having support, like you talked about. As a woman, as a person, we need people who support us and that's why like an executive coach can be helpful. A executive circle for me was helpful surrounding myself with some peers locally that I know that are strong women that has been helpful but really making sure I'm taking care of myself so
that I can know what I know and be confident when I'm actually challenged. 
Amber Bardon: Oh, that's incredible. And I know you just shared a personal story of having something said to you that seems unbelievable. And all of us have shared that on this podcast. And I think that a lot of people in society can think we've moved beyond this.
This doesn't happen anymore. But it does. It happens every day. And like you said, Sue, I was thinking the exact same thing, and then you said it that there are situations a man will never be in. They will never get asked questions like that or be told something like that, that you wouldn't understand because you're a man.
 It's interesting [00:48:00] because, I think sometimes the gut reaction can be to just reverse it and say the same thing back to them, but that's not the answer either. That's our strength as women is to lead with empathy, I think, and with self-awareness and to understand what's happening or the kinds of questions we get are not appropriate, and how do we turn that around and make it a better narrative.
Wow. We definitely have to do a part two. This was like this beyond my expectation. So this is a topic that I really wanted to talk about for a long time, and there's other questions in here we just didn't have time to get to, so would love to continue the conversation with you all and really just appreciate you being so vulnerable and open and sharing on this podcast.
And thank you so much for joining us.  [00:49:00]