Finding the Right Fit: Agent-Author Relationships with Sheyla Knigge

In this episode of Writers With Wrinkles, hosts Beth McMullen and Lisa Schmid sit down with literary agent Sheyla Knigge of Highline Literary Collective to talk about the art of building strong author-agent relationships. Sheyla shares her journey into publishing, her approach to championing authors, and the key questions every writer should ask before signing with an agent.

Guest Bio:
Sheyla Knigge is a literary agent at Highline Literary Collective with nearly two years of experience representing authors and selling books. A lifelong reader who entered agenting during the pandemic, she quickly proved her eye for marketable stories—discovering Where the Dark Stems Still by A.B. Poranek, which became a six-week New York Times bestseller. She now represents 25 clients across genres and is known for her transparency, passion for storytelling, and dedication to uplifting diverse voices.

Key Discussion Points:

• Origin story: how Sheyla transitioned from project management to slush-pile reader to full-time agent.
• Defining strong partnerships: the importance of open communication, trust, and transparency in the agent-author relationship.
• Red flags in queries: why writing outside one’s lived experience without sensitivity can be problematic, and how Sheyla evaluates submissions.
• Crucial questions for writers: why asking about an agent’s support system and mentorship is essential before signing.
• When to walk away: how gut checks, excitement about revisions, and true alignment matter more than a “big name.”
• Wish list: Sheyla’s dream project—“murderous cheerleaders,” a mashup of Bring It On meets I Know What You Did Last Summer.

Conclusion:
Sheyla Knigge reminds writers that publishing is about partnership, not desperation. Choosing the right agent means prioritizing communication, shared vision, and mutual growth over prestige. Her advice encourages authors to seek relationships that set their creative souls on fire, because the right story—and the right fit—will always find its way to readers.

Mentioned Links:

• Highline Literary Collective
• Sheyla Knigge on Instagram

Transcript

BETH MCMULLEN

Hi, friends. I'm Beth McMullen. And I'm Lisa Schmid. This is Season 4, Episode 20. Today, we're excited to welcome Agent Shayla Carnegie to the show. Shayla is a budding publishing professional who comes to the industry with a lifelong love of reading under her belt. With nearly two years of championing her own client's books at Highline Literary Collective, she is excited to help bring more debuts into the world that create readers. Welcome, Shayla. Thanks for being here. We are very excited to have you. I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having me. So we wanted to ask before we jump into the questions, a little bit about how you got to agenting. You are still fairly new at it. And we're just curious about kind of your origin story and how you ended up in the agency. And I know that's something that... our listeners will be super curious about too. So if you can just give us a little window into that, it would be great.

SHALYA KNIGGE

Yeah, this is actually always my favorite question because I like to see that publishing kind of fell into my lap and well, not so much publishing, but agenting itself. So during the pandemic, I had actually taken a project management course and it was obviously during the pandemic. So I was like,

SHALYA KNIGGE

was obviously during the pandemic. So I was like, how does this translate into a job in publishing? And Lauren Spieler had actually said that it was a lot of what book production was. So I was like, okay, bet. I am going to apply to all of the internships because everything's remote right now. I had a lot of informational interviews. I had a lot of interviews and no one wanted me. I was like, love this for me. But I had become friends with Andrea Hanna, who was one of Victoria Marie's clients. And she was like, what are you trying to manifest right now? And I was like, I'm really trying to manifest a job in publishing. And she was like, okay. We're going to do that for you. She comes back to me a couple months later and she's like, hey, my agent's looking for someone to read through a slush pile. Would you be interested? And I was like, I would love that. So I hop on a phone with Victoria and she's like, I don't care what you've done or what you do. I just need someone who reads and reads broadly. So the first book that I ended up finding for her actually ended up being Ritterback Stensile by A .B. Kornheck. And it went on to be a New York Times bestseller for six weeks. So I like some people that I have an idea of what I'm doing. Victoria hasn't been able to shake me yet. When IGLA splintered and Highline Literary launched, I, of course, follow Victoria because she is my agency mom. I love her. I adore her. She's never getting rid of me. She took on my first client the month before Highline launched, and I was able to sell her first book in six weeks. So I kind of hit the ground running. have not stopped since June of 2023 and I don't plan on stopping anytime soon it sounds like you were made for this right you were just sort of you know you came at it a slightly different angle but once you got your foot in the door it was a really good match yeah I mean I've always loved stories and I think with publishing I tell people like it's always a little bit incestuous in the sense that like it's all based on like who you know and timing

BETH MCMULLEN

sounds like you were made for this right you were just sort of you know you came at it a slightly different angle but once you got your foot in the door it was a really good match yeah

SHALYA KNIGGE

I mean I've always loved stories and I think with publishing I tell people like it's always a little bit incestuous in the sense that like it's all based on like who you know and timing And for me, it was truly, I met someone through Twitter, and then I met their friend, and then I met their agent. And now, two and a half years, well, I've been working with Victoria's National Football, and so almost four years later, I have a list of people with my clients. 40 % of them are either under contract for their own books or IP, or they have their own debuts that came out this year. I haven't really stopped. I just, I love stories and I've always loved stories. And now it's not just me getting to find stories that children love and stories that create new readers. So I, I love this work so much. I, if someone had told the little me that found solace in stories that this was an actual career. She wouldn't have believed you, let alone believed that this was going to be my actual job.

LISA SCHMID

That's amazing. And I wish so the listeners obviously can't see you, but I want to I want to tell everyone your hat. You have this cute little beanie on that says book deal energy on it. And that is just just what's radiating from you. And I just it's so and it's so funny because the way I found you was through Carrie Blankenship Kramer. who was on the show a month or so ago and whose debut Go Scouts Honor came out just recently. And you're, yeah,

BETH MCMULLEN

And you're, yeah,

LISA SCHMID

you're her agent. And I was looking at the Better Books workshop because I was like, oh, I'm in the mood to go to a workshop because I had been to that one before. And when I looked at it, it is going to be like 10 minutes from my house. And when I say 10 minutes, it's literally one exit down for me. I could be there. So I was just like, oh, I want to meet Carrie in person. And then I saw you were on there because she's like, my agent's coming with me. My agent's coming with me. So we're getting together for dinner in like a month.

BETH MCMULLEN

be there.

LISA SCHMID

I don't know if you know that. I didn't know that. I'm so excited. We're getting together for dinner.

SHALYA KNIGGE

I love the dinner plan.

LISA SCHMID

the dinner plan. Yeah. So, cause I know you guys flying to Sacramento early and then you're coming out there. So anyway, I'll be meeting you in person.

BETH MCMULLEN

then you're

BETH MCMULLEN

I can't wait. That's actually really fun. I'm going to come and crash that dinner because it's so rare that we get to like, we meet so many interesting people through the screen, you know, on zoom, which is great. Cause yeah, decade ago would have been hard to pull this off, but like, it's very exciting to meet actual people. Like it's, it's a thing.

LISA SCHMID

on zoom,

SHALYA KNIGGE

I think that's why I love doing conferences and in -person events. I love getting to talk one -to -one with authors, especially because it's so much more personable than like a query letter, right? Like I've met two or three of my authors for the first time at Y 'all Fest. And even sometimes I get to meet other authors that aren't necessarily mine and are just like so stressed about the publishing process. And I get to be like, at the end of the day, we are just people who love books. Yes, this is our job. This is our occupation, but it doesn't make us this big or name. It just means that someone fell in love with your story and we get to champion it and talk about it professionally on the regular and work with you because we want everybody to fall in love with your book the same way we did. So don't be afraid of the people that love your stories. So it's just, I love in -person events. They make me so happy.

LISA SCHMID

They're fun. They are fun. You know, one of the things that we've been hearing a lot and we've been getting a lot of little rumblings and grumblings is that there are so many people out there who don't have the same kind of relationship with their agents that I know Carrie has with you and I have with mine and Beth has with hers. I mean, I feel like we're really fortunate, but we do get a lot of questions and emails from people. wondering about their own relationships with agents. And that's, there's a lot of our questions today that are directed at that. And we're hoping that you can help us out. One of the first things I would like to know is what do you think makes for a strong lasting partnership between an agent and an author?

SHALYA KNIGGE

I think open communication. I always tell people to kind of treat publishing like Tinder. You're finding those relationships that work long -term to kind of create that. long -lasting relationship to possibly not result in marriage but like this is a partnership at the end of the day you know so like a lot of my earlier authors not necessarily my newer ones because i have to create boundaries unfortunately i'm not great at them they have my phone number they text me they will call me randomly oh they all have my social media so like i'm always chronically online but i think Open lines of communication are very important to have with your agent because they're your first line of defense. Not saying that you have to be on the defense with your publisher, but because if you can't be vulnerable, especially because these stories are your heart's work, you know, you've poured so much of your soul and your time and your energy into these stories. And it's you on paper. And if you can't be real and upfront with your agent about what's going on behind the scenes. and feel comfortable talking with them about your story or what comes next and what stories you want to do. It's like, why are you with this person? Why are you working with this person? What makes them the right fit? Because, you know, when we talk about what we want in an agent, is it name recognition? And if so, why? Is it the caliber of authors that they work with? Is it the amount of titles that they've sold? Because really and truly, at the end of the day, it should be the working relationship that you want to have with them. A lot of people will ask me, like, how editorial are you? And that's because they're looking for an editorial agent. How hands -on are you? Because I have, my boss isn't as hands -on as she used to be because she has a lot on her plate now. There are different facets of this industry, and there are different things that everyone wants in an agent. And so having that at the forefront of your mind, as opposed to, oh, this name is one that I heard a lot of, is something that is so important. I think, at least to my mind, I think I had an author two years ago, almost, who she signed with someone else because it was a really big name. And it was a name that was familiar. I was still relatively, I mean, still relatively now. But at the time, she was like, okay, your agency's really new. I don't know you. I know this name. And she came back to me a year later, and she was like, I haven't been able to get what you said about the story setting your soul on fire out of my head. Would you be willing to have a call? And I had a call with her. And that book, obviously, I couldn't sell because I had seen so many different agents. I remember that she wanted to do children's books. And I wasn't doing a ton in, like, the lower. kid lit stage but I had an IP project come in and she auditioned for it and she got it and now she's debuting the next month because she was open and vulnerable and open to possibilities and the thing is had she had I not been able to be open to that communication and had she not been able to communicate that like hey I haven't been able to stop thinking about this that might not have happened had she not been willing to be like I was wrong about this. And we have a conversation. She might not be debuting this year. And so there is a level of vulnerability that comes with this work that you have to be comfortable with. And if you're not, you're probably not ready for it.

BETH MCMULLEN

That makes a lot of sense, especially when you think about authors.

BETH MCMULLEN

second guessing conversations they have with their agents. I don't know how many times I've had people say, she said this, what does that mean? Well, ask her what it means, right? Like if you are not communicating in a way that feels clear, then get your answer. Ask the question. I think there's just so much, people try so, so hard, writers try so, so hard to get agents. And then when they get them. They're so worried they're going to somehow screw up the relationship that they get in their own way.

SHALYA KNIGGE

Yeah. And that's why I am, I'm very intentional. I think publishing is a very cloak and daggers kind of affair where people are like, oh, well, it's a secret. I don't know anything. Yeah. I am very big on transparency with my authors as they can be. I'm going to tell you things as much as I can. So I like to have like check -in calls every six months. And at the start of the year, it's like, hey, what are our plans for this year? So we can kind of map out, like what projects are you working on? Where are you going from here? And then at the mid -year mark, when publishing is kind of dead in the water, I'm like, hey, what's working for you in terms of communication? Is there anything that I can do to change? Is there something that would work better for you? Is there something that you need from me? Because again, it's a partnership and I want to be working in your best interest. if something's not working i would rather communicate it now than let something linger because i was listening to a podcast a few years ago and i can't remember which one it is i i hate that every time i think about it but i said that a lot of people don't stay with their first agent and i kind of want to change that narrative not because i am like i have to be your only agent and i'm selfish like that but because i want to grow with you i want to grow with you and your stories and not just help you become a better author, but I want to become a better agent alongside you because we continued to communicate openly and honestly about what was and wasn't working along the way.

BETH MCMULLEN

This episode is going to drop and you're going to get a thousand submissions because everything that you're saying right now is what, you know, all those anxious neurotic writers want to hear. Somebody who is really going to see them. And that's, I mean, that's an amazing work philosophy. And I imagine it is contributing to your rapidly expanding success, right? You are creating these relationships that are valuable rather than transactional. So, I mean, really good to hear that, I think. And it's going to get our readers very excited. So we apologize in advance. It's okay. I'll be fine.

BETH MCMULLEN

From where you are, what are red flags that you notice in crazes or submissions that make you think, okay, this is not somebody that I would see myself working with in the future?

SHALYA KNIGGE

It's hard to say that there are general red flags because it's like, again, it's like dating. Everybody's got their own red flags. It's like, how can you really generalize? But I think for me in particular, because something that I'm very passionate about as I am both a reader and someone who takes on story thoughts for myself, for my children, I am very intentional about representation in my stories. And so a great example is I do query critiques both for Manuscript Academy and I did them for myself personally before that. And I have had people who, when they have written a query, they say, I wrote this story because I wanted to bring attention to X, Y, and Z. And it is usually a marginalized group that they are not affiliated with. And so as a queer BIPOC woman, that immediately gives me the ick because not only are you taking that space away from someone who has that lived experience, but you are inserting yourself in a narrative that does not belong to you. And why do you feel that it is necessary or your place to do so? Especially because we've done that in publishing before. And we aren't going to change publishing by doing the same thing over and over again. And I want my child to be able to see herself in stories like Carrie's book where she can see queer characters and buy top characters and feel connections to them without feeling like, oh, they wrote my identity, but they don't understand what it is to be this person. And so...

SHALYA KNIGGE

I'm very intentional when I take on stories that my authors recognize the lived experience of their characters and that if they don't,

SHALYA KNIGGE

the lived experience of their characters and that if they don't, they are comfortable with the idea that they will have to explain and have sensitivity readers who can be like, hey, this is not okay and this is why. And if they're not comfortable with that, they shouldn't be writing those characters because it's not their place. So that would be my biggest red flag.

LISA SCHMID

So leading into the next question, I'm kind of going back to the agenting part. And this goes really before somebody even signs with somebody. What do you think is the most crucial question an author should ask an agent before signing?

SHALYA KNIGGE

What does your support system look like? And I say that because in the last couple of years, we've had... a major influx of new agents which is great we love this because it means that there are a lot of authors with new access to representation however it means that we have a lot of new agents who don't necessarily have a lot of support and what i mean by that is some agents that i've spoken to are coming into this without having actual mentorship at their agencies

SHALYA KNIGGE

And that can be very harmful, not just to them as agents, but to their clients moving forward. I think something that I love about Highline is that I will call Victoria 16 times a day. Actually, if I don't call her 16 times a day, she gets nervous. She's like, is something wrong? But I also have a very fantastic cohort of colleagues who are always open and available to answer questions if there's something that I don't have the answer to. And it doesn't just make me a better agent, but it makes us a really great team because we want not just our own books to succeed, but all of our books to succeed. And especially because we are all spread out, not just across the country, but kind of across the globe because we have a colleague that's in South Africa. We are all trying our hardest to make sure that all of these books have the best chance of success. So if there's something that I don't know or my team doesn't know. We have access to resources that can help us get those answers. Like I have been a mentee, a lawyer that's changed this year through the AALA. And I had a text question. I was like, I don't know agent taxes. That's fun. I'm not money person. I'm that person. I'm a reading person. There's a reason I do this job. And one of my mentees was, or my mentors was like, hey, I connect with this person. I'm going to connect you if that's okay. I had a call with her and she was like, these are the things you need. I was like, bless. But these are things that I would not have if I didn't have the right support system around me. And the right support system is going to help you figure out the best way to tackle contracts for your client, the best way to tackle negotiations and conversations with editors, and really navigating any kind of tough spot and even tough conversations with your authors if it comes to it. Because, again, it's like a relationship. Not all things are easy. There are going to be tough conversations, but having a support system of any type, and that might just be like you have a background in this, you have had some type of team that comes from this and has done this before, is going to be so beneficial to not just you as an agent, but to your authors in the long term. I can't stress that enough. I think, especially because I've been working, I worked so closely with Victoria. before Highline launched and then when Highline launched I gained access to so many new people and so many colleagues like now I understand how to put together a proposal for non -fiction and now I understand how to connect with editors and there are so many layers to this that if I did not have team support I would not be as successful as I am but I think that because we're just like, oh, an agent wants to write my book. We kind of forget like, oh, hey, have you done this before? And if you haven't, like, what's your support system look like? I think that's the biggest thing I think people should ask.

BETH MCMULLEN

I love that answer. I love that answer because. I mean, people don't understand that you don't need a degree or a certificate or training experience to be an agent. You can just say, I'm an agent. There's no entry to bury or entry. And I think what you hit on of people being kind of desperate to get representation, they don't look at the experience of the agent. What have you done to get yourself in a position where I can trust you with my book? I think that is a... Excellent, excellent question to be asking of any agent who's offering you representation. Like, where do you fit into this world? What's around you? I mean, I remember my agent was with an agency called Writer's House. She's launched her own thing after that. But for a while, she was with Writer's House. And just the amount of people who were coming in to sort of touch on a project, all these different people with their different skills. kind of coming in to offer and lend support where they were needed in the process. And it was just amazing. And you could see how different it would be if you didn't have that. If your person was an island, then you are really sacrificing all of that knowledge that you really need to bring to bear on a project, right? You've worked so hard on this thing. You wanted to succeed. Super important. I hope people, you know, write that in giant marker across their, you know, board or whatever. Super important stuff.

SHALYA KNIGGE

Like when I was starting, I had Victoria on every single offer call because she was like, I need you all to know Shayla's not just siloed in a basement in Tennessee. She has support behind her. It's not just her. She's not an island. She has a team and you will be supported. It's not just her. And that has made a world of difference. They feel so supportive. It's a really more world of difference. It's too much.

BETH MCMULLEN

And I think it's okay as a writer to ask. Don't be afraid to ask. And if they don't have an answer for you, then that's a red flag. You know, and then you want to avoid getting into a relationship that you then have to untangle yourself from. And some of that, and we hear these stories all the time. Some of that is because the writer didn't do their homework. Gotta do your due diligence. You sure do. So we kind of answered the next question. We talked a bit about communication and you gave us a little bit of insight into how you are so regular in reaching out to your current author list, which is, I think, amazing. I'm going to jump to the next question, which is when should a writer consider walking away from an agent author offer? I think this is interesting because people, again, we're dealing with that desperation. Of people just wanting to say yes and then be able to say, I have representation. But what is something that in your experience you would say to a writer, maybe this isn't the best fit for you?

SHALYA KNIGGE

So in my experience, a great example is I have an author that I offered on. And she said when she got off the call, the gears in her head were just churning. She was so excited to get to work on her book. was so excited to dive back in. And that's important because when you are going to go on submission, you're going to have to dive into that book again and again and again, not just with your agent, but with your editor. You're going to have edits and copy edits and line edits and so many versions of this book. And I think with that author, we did almost six months of revisions before we went on submission and she was like, this book's trying to kill me. It didn't. She survived. But she said that she was lit up she had a spark and she didn't have that with her other calls and so I always tell my authors write what sets your soul on fire right because when you're not writing what sets your soul on fire you can tell that in your work if you're not excited about your work it shows on the page and readers can feel that readers can sense when an author was not excited to write something that is in their story and Your reviews are going to show that because they're going to be like, eh, it didn't really. They didn't love this.

SHALYA KNIGGE

So if you're not excited about the ideas and the things that an agent is proposing about your story and the changes that they want to make, they're probably not the right one for you. It's like when you're trying to pick your partner. Again, this is like dating. I love comparing publishing to dating because it's really what this is. You're trying to pick your partner and you're like, okay, this one's a good kisser. This one's kind of meh. This one, I don't really feel like kissing this one. But this one, oh my goodness, I could kiss this one forever and ever and ever. It's like, okay, cool. That's what he goes. It's a gut check. You feel it. You know it. And if you don't feel that, don't go with that agent because they're not the one for you. It's okay to wait. You don't have to go with someone just because they were like, I like your book. I want to rep it. Okay. Someone might want to date you, but do you like them? No? Okay, cool. Don't do that. That's not for you. What is meant for you will bind you. And I know that that's like said all the time, but it is true. Your story will bind its readers, but sometimes it takes a little longer than you might want it to. It's like sometimes we will sign an author for one book and that might not be the book that sells. But it's the book that got you the agent. And then that next book is the one that sells. And I was listening to the E. Schwab talk last year. And she said, you start from a teacup and then you go to a raft. And you start really small. But it just, it kind of builds. And it's the same with your publishing experience. And it all starts with who you choose as your agent. So you have to be very intentional. Don't just pick someone because they said. I like your book. Come, come work with me. It's not always the best in your best interest.

LISA SCHMID

Some of the best advice I've heard, because I think we all do that. I, you know, I have friends who have signed with people that they regret, you know, they can feel it afterwards. They don't get the emails returned. They're like getting ghosted or their agents not excited or they find out after the fact that their agents never repped. in the space they write in. I mean, they always, you find out stuff like as you're going through the relationship. And I think that if everyone asks more questions, pointed questions that matter, and we all have a list that we get from our friends, like, what should I ask the agent? What should I, you know, we're all asking those same things. But in response to like a new agent, when you were saying, I think some people get nervous about going with a new agent instead of going with a name. Some people who go with that name, they're just like, they get ignored because they're not, you know, they're not a name yet, if that makes sense. And so if you are a newer agent, knowing that support system that's around you is what makes all the difference in the world. So when you were saying that, that is such a great answer. And it's such an important thing to know is, you know, what's going on with that person and who's around them. Yeah.

SHALYA KNIGGE

A great support system makes a world of difference. It's like it truly takes a village. I say it takes a village to raise a child. It takes a village to create a book. You know, we are having to bring the husband to market.

LISA SCHMID

People are going to love you.

BETH MCMULLEN

You're going to open up your email box and be like, what happened?

LISA SCHMID

That's not good. Well, it's like you were giving a pep talk to me. It's like you were like staring into my soul. I've been struggling to write a new project. And I'm just like, what's wrong with me? And you're like, the book, the story has to, your soul has to be on fire. And I'm like, I don't even think my soul is lukewarm right now. It's not the book for right now then.

SHALYA KNIGGE

now then.

LISA SCHMID

So now I'm like. I know. So anyway, so thank you for that pep talk. It's again, it's, it's, it's good to hear that kind of stuff. I know. And it worked. I was just like mesmerized by it. It's like, oh my God, falling in love with you right now. So, okay. Now that everyone wants to query you and again, brace for impact because it's going to happen. I'm hoping you're open because it's going to happen.

SHALYA KNIGGE

Currently closed because I have 25 clients, but I am hoping that I can sell more projects this fall and reopen very soon.

LISA SCHMID

So people can like keep a watch on you and you're, I'm assuming that you announce it on like your socials and stuff. I always announce it on my Instagram.

SHALYA KNIGGE

always announce it on my Instagram. I am horrifically active on Instagram, but I am always telling people when I'm open there.

LISA SCHMID

Okay, perfect. So once they can do it, they'll start stalking you and you'll probably see a little influx of followers. So with that in mind, even though you aren't open right now, if you were open, is there like one, what's on top of your manuscript wishlist? Or what is like that one thing that would make your heart sing and that you would be like, oh my gosh, this is what I've been waiting for.

SHALYA KNIGGE

So for the last year and a half, this has been my favorite question because I keep saying the same thing and no one has written it yet. And if I have to write it, I'm going to be very upset because I do not have the time or the bandwidth. But in a perfect world, I would love... murderous cheerleaders and when i say murderous cheerleaders i mean bring it on means i know what you did last summer i want to know what you're willing to do to get involved in the pyramid even if that might mean murder how is nobody taking you up on this i don't know because every time i put it to editors they're like oh my god i love this send it to you and you get it i'm like i wish i could no one has sent it oh wow

BETH MCMULLEN

wow As soon as you said that, I could see the cover. I can see the cover. Oh, come on, people. There has to be somebody out there who's got this story in them. Oh, boy. This is a challenge to the podcast community. Somebody's got to do this. That is so funny. I love that. And we just got the remake. Oh,

SHALYA KNIGGE

Oh, I know what you did last summer. So it's very timely. It's very timely, like a summer camp. Summer camp cheerleaders. Cheer camp.

LISA SCHMID

I think you have the synopsis. Is it like in your computer? Can you just send it out and say this is what I want?

SHALYA KNIGGE

is what I want? If agents could do IP in the way the editors could, I would just be like, audition, give me the thing. Unfortunately, I can't do that. I have asked my boss. I cannot do that.

BETH MCMULLEN

Oh, darn. That's good. That's really good. I am actually stunned that nobody has come up with at least a take on that for y 'all, especially if you put it out there.

SPEAKER_02

you put it out there. I keep saying if I put it out into the universe, it will come. I've been asking for a year and a half.

BETH MCMULLEN

Well, maybe this is it. Maybe somebody out there is going to hear this and start like frantically writing. Oh, yeah. Come on, people. Make me proud. Come up with this is great. I would read this in a heartbeat. That is the perfect place to wrap up because I think people are just going to be running to their, you know. to their laptops to get this done for you if they're smart, right? So Shayla, thank you so much for being here. This has been a wonderful conversation with a lot of really good stuff that I know our listeners are going to be so happy to hear. So thank you for spending the time. We are very grateful.

SHALYA KNIGGE

Thank you for having me.

BETH MCMULLEN

having me. This has been so much fun. So listeners, remember you can find out more about Shayla by visiting our podcast notes in the blog at writerswithwrinkles .net. And a quick reminder, we are starting first pages feedback in October. Be sure to listen to our extra episode that will drop last week from this one with all the details or see the episode notes for how to submit those first pages to be read on air. And Lisa and I are back next time with an Ask Beth and Lisa episode. So submit your questions via the podcast notes or use any of our social channels. And until then, happy reading, writing, and listening.