First Pages!!! (yes we're excited)

In this session, Beth and Lisa critique the opening of "Beyond the Moon," a middle-grade contemporary manuscript. The discussion focuses on refining the "hook," establishing a consistent tone, and leveraging character relationships to engage readers immediately.

Key Critique Points

• Establishing Tone and Mood: The opening combines a "creepy" atmosphere with a protagonist who is "giggling." The hosts recommend aligning these elements so the reader knows exactly what kind of story they are entering—whether it is a mystery, a comedy, or a ghost story.
• The Power of Specificity: Using general adjectives like "spooky" or "cool" tells the reader how to feel rather than showing them. The hosts suggest using specific sensory details—like the smell of old paper or the look of a cracked glass eye on a mannequin—to build a more immersive world.
• Strengthening the "Hook": Modern middle-grade fiction requires a fast start. To capture a young reader's attention, the manuscript needs to move the central conflict and the emotional "hook" to the very first page.
• Show, Don't Tell with Characters: Instead of describing the protagonist as a "second-class citizen" in her family, the hosts suggest showing this through a "snub" from a relative or a specific interaction with her "golden" sister.
• Utilizing Interiority: The character’s internal monologue is a powerful tool for middle-grade authors. Using the protagonist’s private thoughts can help establish a unique voice and build an immediate bond with the reader.

Writing Takeaways

• Read the Current Market: Writers should read 20–25 books published in their genre within the last year to understand modern pacing and descriptive styles.
• Front-Load the Conflict: Don't wait for Chapter Two to introduce the primary tension.
• Focus on Voice: The hosts noted that while structural changes are needed, the author has already cleared the biggest hurdle: creating a character with a clear, relatable voice.

The Waiting Room - private writers Facebook group

Transcript

Ask B&L S5 E4 Transcript

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Beth McMullen: Hi friends, I'm Beth McMullen.

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Lisa Schmid: And I'm Lisa Schmid.

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Beth McMullen: And we're the co-hosts of Writers with Wrinkles. This is Season 5, Episode 4, and this is a First Pages episode. We love First Pages episodes, don't we?

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Lisa Schmid: We do, they're my favorite now.

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Beth McMullen: They're fun. They're actually really, really fun. Before we get on to a few other little things, just a quick reminder about our Threads chats that happen on the first Wednesday of every month. We'd love for you to join us there and…

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Beth McMullen: We're picking different topics, and hopefully can meet some new literary writing friends, it's all good. We also have our private writer's Facebook group.

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Beth McMullen: That is pretty active, a lot of stuff going on over there. I will drop the link for that group in the notes. It asks you a few questions before we let you in, but, we'd love to see you over there as well.

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Beth McMullen: So, this is kind of funny. We did an episode on scams, that was our last Ask Beth and Lisa, and Lisa has a…

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Beth McMullen: has a ringer of a scam to tell you about. Like, I'm still a little stunned.

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Lisa Schmid: Well, this one, I think this episode that you're referring to doesn't drop until it's next week, correct?

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Lisa Schmid: Or, no.

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Beth McMullen: It will drop before this one.

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Lisa Schmid: Okay, go ahead.

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Beth McMullen: Want me to do it again?

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Lisa Schmid: No, I can just pick up, like, you said it, and then I interrupted with my nonsense.

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Beth McMullen: Okay, hold on.

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Lisa Schmid: Okay.

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Beth McMullen: Okay, go ahead, I just wanted to make a note to cut this out.

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Lisa Schmid: Okay.

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Lisa Schmid: Yeah, this one… this one is a Whopper, and it was… it's not one…

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Lisa Schmid: I've heard of or seen, and honestly, for a second, I was like, no, this is fun. Like, I kind of, like, there is a split second where, in my brain.

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Beth McMullen: You fell for it!

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Lisa Schmid: Well, and my ego is, like.

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Lisa Schmid: stroked, and I was like, of course! And then I was like, wait a minute, this doesn't seem right. So I actually got…

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Lisa Schmid: I got… I received this email through my website, and it was from, and I'm using air quotes, an editor at Chronicle Books. And she was saying how much she loved Ollie Oxley, and how much she enjoyed my work, and she wanted to know if I had any current manuscripts.

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Lisa Schmid: That I was working on that was kind of similar, and had the same kind of middle grade voice, or whatever, blah blah blah. And I literally, for a heartbeat, I was, you know, because we're… I'm so… my… I have a manuscript on… on sub right now, middle grade on sub, which, you know, who knows what's going to happen with that, blah blah blah. That's a whole other heartbreaking story.

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Beth McMullen: We don't have time for that today.

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Lisa Schmid: We don't have time for that today, people. So anyway, like, and because I'm, like, so, like, ugh, nothing's gonna happen, I'm like, oh my god, somebody from Chronicle Books is, like, who wants to work with me? And then…

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Lisa Schmid: And then I realized, I'm like, oh my god, this is a new scam! And…

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Lisa Schmid: it literally… I looked up the editor, there is an editor by that name there, and she, you know, of course, is with Chronicle Books, and so I just thought, oh my god, what if somebody actually, like, goes with this, that's, you know, maybe doesn't have publishing experience and doesn't know an editor? Never in a million zillion years, no matter how many times you wish upon a star.

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Lisa Schmid: Pick a four-leaf clover, 

you buy every rabbit's foot on the planet.

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Beth McMullen: And follow the rainbow to the end.

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Lisa Schmid: Never, ever happening. So, if you receive one of these emails, do not reply.

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Beth McMullen: thinking about it, and I'm trying to figure out what the money angle is in this. So, for instance, if you don't have publishing experience, and you're like, oh, this is just the way it works, and you follow it, and you contact them, I assume they'll ask you for some sort of payment to facilitate the

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Beth McMullen: process or something, right? I mean, if you kind of game it out in your head, I'm trying to figure out where it would end up. Like, where are they taking your money?

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Lisa Schmid: I… I went even more nefarious. I'm like, I think they're trying to get manuscripts.

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Beth McMullen: And so that was… Oh my gosh, I didn't even.

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Lisa Schmid: That's what I've.

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Beth McMullen: Oh, God.

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Lisa Schmid: Like, somebody just says, yes, here's my manuscript.

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Lisa Schmid: And now they have a manuscript, a fully formed manuscript, and so it struck my…

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Beth McMullen: What are you doing with them?

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Lisa Schmid: using it. They're publishing it online, like, they're, like, using it, you know, going out.

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Beth McMullen: Odd.

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Lisa Schmid: So that was my first thought.

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Beth McMullen: Thank you.

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Lisa Schmid: I don't, like, it scared me, so I immediately got, like, anxiety for every author out there that hasn't been published yet, or doesn't have that experience, and just doesn't know, or maybe, you know, whatever way they come in. I don't know. I don't know.

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Beth McMullen: Yeah, I mean, publishing, we say this all the time, it's really opaque, and if you haven't been up to your eyeballs in it for years and years, some of the stuff can seem, on the surface, very normal. Like, an editor publishes books, you know, publishing house has editors, the editors choose books. Well, of course, they might reach out to somebody.

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Beth McMullen: you know, unfortunately, that's not the way it works in publishing, but, like, how would you know that unless you're… you're in it? So, it is… that is diabolical, and I didn't think about the stealing of your intellectual property, which just is so much worse than, like, trying to swindle you out of 100 bucks or whatever.

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Lisa Schmid: Hey, I'm an anxiety-riddled person, as we all know.

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Beth McMullen: No, you're not.

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Lisa Schmid: I always go to worst-case scenario, and that was my worst case scenario, and this just reminds me, there was a few years back, there was a situation where somebody was creating emails from, like, just fake emails from… so say somebody has a book that is with, I don't know.

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Lisa Schmid: you know, them, or wherever. Somebody would create and say that they were with, you know, the editor's team, and then they would say, we need another copy of your manuscript for something else. And so people were sending in their manuscripts to this fake editor, and then they were getting pirated out. Do you remember that?

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Beth McMullen: I remember somebody stealing manuscripts, but I don't remember what they were doing with it.

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Lisa Schmid: I did with them. I don't remember what happened with it, but I was just like, if somebody asks you again for your manuscript, like, once they… your editor will never, ever again ask you.

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Beth McMullen: You're not gonna…

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Lisa Schmid: So you're… like, unless you're in revisions, and it'll always say on the email, like, you'll know, like, you know.

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Beth McMullen: So you have to look for the company name, you have to confirm that it actually matches, you can always…

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Lisa Schmid: Email address.

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Beth McMullen: You can always send it as an original from your email to them, the established one already. There's a lot of little tricks to keep yourself

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Beth McMullen: safe, you just have to be diligent and vigilant, I guess, because this is… Crazy! This is… yeah, it's just getting worse. I've noticed on some agent…

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Beth McMullen: Companies, agencies, they have a banner that says, you know, do not…

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Beth McMullen: Do not accept emails or phone calls or anything with people because we're getting…

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Beth McMullen: we're getting spoofed, so make sure that you go through, you know, you check the email address, you check the person, all of those things. It's such a bummer, like, it's such a bummer to feel like…

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Beth McMullen: you have to approach it from this… this point of feeling suspicious. I just don't like it.

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Lisa Schmid: I know.

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Beth McMullen: Anyway, let's go on to something happy and fun, right?

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Lisa Schmid: Yes.

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Beth McMullen: pages!

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Beth McMullen: So today's selection is middle grade contemporary, and it's called Beyond the Moon.

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Beth McMullen: This is Chapter 1, so get your blankies and your hot chocolate, get comfortable. It's story hour here at Writers with Wrinkles.

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Beth McMullen: Alright, this is Chapter 1, Don't Make Waves.

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Beth McMullen: The mannequin's eyes followed me as I dusted the old doll collection.

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Beth McMullen: What are you staring at? I swiped my duster like a sword. Don't mess with me. I giggled, waiting for Eleanor to respond. If only she could. Eleanor, spooky and cool, stood guard at the entrance of the Incredible Barn, our antique shop.

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Beth McMullen: Mom dragged her home after she discovered her at a yard sale this summer and named her after a character in Sense and Sensibility, her favorite book of all time.

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Beth McMullen: Like everything else in this musty old barn, iron bird cage with a stuffed bird inside, black and white photos with stern-looking people, whale oil lamp, ship's foghorn… Eleanor used to creep me out, but now she was my favorite.

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Beth McMullen: She reminded me of Grams, dressed in antique clothes. Just don't tell Grams that. I'm sure she wouldn't agree.

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Beth McMullen: I was minding the shop, a barn that was attached to our drafty old house, since I was the one mom relied on when she was busy with other things.

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Beth McMullen: Today, her other things included cleaning the guest room down the hall for Graham's. Grams was moving in, and Mom had to have everything perfect. Grams was a stickler for clean and just about everything else.

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Beth McMullen: Ivy! I nearly jumped out of my cowboy boots and stared at Eleanor in her long, lacy dress. Did she just… Changin' plans, Mom called as she rushed in from the back of the shop. What did Grams do now? She just got here. Maybe she wasn't moving in after all. I'd be good with that. Sorry, Grampy, but I would.

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Beth McMullen: Mom stood next to me, her eye twitching, and put her arm around my shoulder. Sorry, honey, but Grams wants your room. My chest squeezed, and I thought I saw stars.

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Beth McMullen: My room? What's wrong with the guest room? Graham's couldn't do this to me. What about Brooke's room? I knew Brooke was the golden sister, and I was the second-class citizen, but this was too much.

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Beth McMullen: Alright!

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Beth McMullen: There is our opening.

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Beth McMullen: So… I have… Some thoughts?

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Beth McMullen: Overall, I feel like the opening has voice, it has stakes, but…

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Beth McMullen: I think the revision opportunities come in swapping out a lot of generalities for specificity and letting the emotional core appear earlier in the chapter.

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Beth McMullen: What are your thoughts?

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Lisa Schmid: So…

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Lisa Schmid: I think, you know, there's one thing I'm just gonna… just like the opening sentence, the mannequin's eyes followed me as I dusted the old, doll collection. What are you staring at? I swiped my duster like a sword. Don't mess with me, I giggled. I felt like this opening line had a mixed tone. Like, I… you know, at first I thought, okay, this is creepy, but then all of a sudden it got light… it lightened it up, and I just… I felt like, okay, what's the tone of the book?

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Lisa Schmid: It doesn't… this… it doesn't set the tone appropriately, like, where… where's the book gonna go?

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Lisa Schmid: And I think, really, in that first line, you need to set the tone of what the story's gonna be about.

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Beth McMullen: I feel like the, I feel like you're exactly right. The… the antique shop and the mannequin, they both create a mood, and then the word giggle?

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Beth McMullen: pulls you out of it, right? Yeah. It's like…

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Beth McMullen: And if it's meant to be more light-hearted, then switch some stuff around so that you feel that lightheartedness, but you're right, it comes… it's operating on two different emotional planes, which don't necessarily match, and kind of, I feel like, are a bit of a distraction to the reader.

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Beth McMullen: And the mannequin is not Eleanor, the doll, so you've also got this mannequin who… she's not… is she part of the doll collection? Is she just standing in a corner? I'm trying to place where the mannequin is in this…

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Beth McMullen: scene.

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Lisa Schmid: Wow.

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Lisa Schmid: And are the eyes really following her? You know, or is that kind of one of those… you know, that was the first thing I thought, is I'm like, are the eyes literally following her, or is it just one of those things where, you know, how pictures, eyes follow you?

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Beth McMullen: And so… Yeah.

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Lisa Schmid: It just… there were some mixed messages in there, so it just… it made me confused about where we were going with the story.

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Beth McMullen: And I think if you tee up an old doll collection, you are automatically bringing all the baggage of every story that has been told before with old creepy dolls.

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Beth McMullen: So, I think you have to be careful. If you're going for that, great, you can use that to your advantage. If you're not going for that, then you have to find a different approach, because the message is getting a bit muddled in that, in that opening.

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Beth McMullen: line. I felt like…

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Beth McMullen: if we're moving to the next paragraph, where she's describing Eleanor, this doll, as spooky and cool. These are one of the… this is one of the examples of something that's quite general, that if you could

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Beth McMullen: Get more specific and give us different, more…

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Beth McMullen: specific details, it would carry a lot more weight. So, you know, this is your opening, everything has to do… do heavy lifting, so, like.

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Beth McMullen: Rather than spooky or cool, are you, you know, does she have those crazy glass eyes that freak everybody out? What about, you know, her dress, her hair, her expression? It's a little bit of a show-don't-tell kind of thing. Like, you're telling me she's spooky and cool, well, show me why.

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Beth McMullen: That will be…

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Beth McMullen: catchier for the opening few lines, because now you'll have an image of Eleanor in your head that you can work with as the reader.

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Lisa Schmid: Yeah, and again, if it's… this is where it's… and again, we never have any idea where the book is going or what it's about, but if… if it isn't something… if this isn't a book about spooky dolls and…

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Lisa Schmid: if you're just trying to set the stage for this antique store, you're… you're… you're mixing everything. You're… you're not setting the tone again.

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Beth McMullen: Yeah.

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Beth McMullen: I think, too, I, I wrote a substack recently on this screen lighting class that I had taken during COVID, and how

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Beth McMullen: it gave me this idea that, you know, when you're writing a screenplay, it's only… you can only write what the camera can see, right? You don't get that interiority that we get to have in, writing novels, and…

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Beth McMullen: I think this is the kind of instance where you could actually really get a lot of mileage out of thinking about what this looks like to a camera on the outside. It's looking down on

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Beth McMullen: Eleanor, and you're describing what you see, and that's gonna give us everything that we need to know about Eleanor without having to tell us

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Beth McMullen: Specifically. I think there are a couple of examples that I highlighted where I felt like you could do,

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Beth McMullen: you could get a little bit more, bang for your buck out of the details. I think,

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Beth McMullen: When she says, Eleanor used to creep me out, but now she was my favorite.

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Beth McMullen: why? Why is… why is Eleanor moved from creepy to not? And then you can convey that in that one sentence, then you suddenly learn a lot about our main character, you learn a lot about the way that she thinks,

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Beth McMullen: I think also the barn was attached to our drafty old house. Where is it? Is it hot or cold? Is it dusty? Are they in the middle of nowhere? Lots of opportunities to throw in some setting details there that just put the reader

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Beth McMullen: in a place. You put them in this barn, attached to this house.

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Beth McMullen: in this moment with the main character, with Ivy. Like, you put your reader right there, experiencing what Ivy experiences.

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Beth McMullen: Yeah.

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Lisa Schmid: I, another thing, as you were talking, I was just looking at… I just want to throw this in, because it's a positive that I really liked, is, in a statement, she says, I nearly jumped out of my cowboy boots and stared at Eleanor.

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Lisa Schmid: I like that, because now we… we get an image of who this girl is. And that right there, that's perfect. That's… that's, showing, not telling.

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Lisa Schmid: And so I, you know, I immediately get an image of who this girl is, which I loved. And then she, you know, she was responding to, she thought in her mind, you know, did she just…

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Lisa Schmid: did she… she was thinking, did the doll just talk? So I feel like that's foreshadowing right there. So again, I'm getting the impression that this is a, a doll story.

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Beth McMullen: Yeah, I think so. I felt that way, too. Like, are we… is she gonna talk to us later? Which would be so cool, right? I would love that. And if she's not, then I think you maybe want to think about,

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Beth McMullen: putting, you know, kind of redirecting that so that you're not creating expectations that aren't going to be met later, and you're… you're… you're pointing the reader in the right direction.

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Beth McMullen: I like this…

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Beth McMullen: this interiority that she's set up with the… when she thinks it's Eleanor, and she says to herself, did she just…

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Lisa Schmid: You know, did she just talk… and then she does it again when she's like, sorry, Grampy!

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Beth McMullen: But I would be okay if Grimms didn't come here, so…

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Beth McMullen: I love that poking around in her head,

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Beth McMullen: I think it establishes, like, a great way, as she moves through this to…

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Beth McMullen: better understand what IV is thinking and feeling. I think it can also

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Beth McMullen: take you a long way in terms of, like, humor and, you know, the funny stuff that we think but we don't say. I think it's a really good mechanism for helping the reader understand

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Beth McMullen: Ivy better. So it's funny, because I think you have opportunities on both sides here. You have a way to really give a little bit more of the sensory details that will help

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Beth McMullen: show Ivy in her situation and what it's like, and then you also have, on the flip side, this interiority where you're hearing her thoughts, which I think together, super, super powerful. Really…

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Beth McMullen: Helps you get the reader to a place where they understand that character so well.

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Lisa Schmid: I feel like this is,

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Lisa Schmid: This page is… is backstory and setting.

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Lisa Schmid: And it could… you're… I think we're in… and this reminds me a lot of when I was first writing Ollie Oxley, and that I had tons of backstory, and I think I was working, and I've talked about this before, working out my angst from my childhood.

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Lisa Schmid: And I clearly remember a lot of my critique partners saying, wow, your character's angry and pissed off, and I hadn't dialed it back enough, because when my editor got it, you know, she was like, why is he so angry? And it's like, I have issues! I need to work them out on paper.

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Beth McMullen: You're telling me not to work through my baggage. That's what I'm doing here.

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Lisa Schmid: So, I encourage anybody who, especially if it's a first book, because I think in my first book, I worked out a lot of my stuff. I mean, writing a book is an amazing therapy session. Sure is. But it's like writing in your journal, only better, because other people get to read it and see how angry you are.

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Lisa Schmid: But I… I get the sense that there's some, working out angst in this, in this, first chapter. I… so I think that's something that you need to work through, and we all do.

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Beth McMullen: And once you get past it, you'll feel much better.

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Beth McMullen: I… I… I like the angst, and I.

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Lisa Schmid: I do.

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Beth McMullen: it shows up too late. I want to see some evidence that there's this sibling rivalry that's gonna get heated. I'm assuming it's gonna get heated, because she's throwing down…

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Lisa Schmid: it.

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Beth McMullen: is the Golden Sister, and I'm the second-cost citizen.

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Beth McMullen: And I want to feel that and see that right away. I think you can throw that in right at the beginning, even if it's an aside. You know, you could use that interiority that you've set up where we're seeing some of her thoughts to bring Brooke into it, so that she's, like, front and center.

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Beth McMullen: Because my sense is that it's the sibling rivalry that's gonna drive this story, and that is, like…

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Beth McMullen: gold for middle grade, because anybody who's ever had a sibling has had that sense of…

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Beth McMullen: wait a minute, they like the other one better than me, or, you know, something of that design, where you really… you can sense the competition, and that is, like, there is so much there to work with, and I think if… if…

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Beth McMullen: The author can bring that forward a little bit. That sort of angstiness is… is perfect for a middle grade contemporary. It can really drive your story.

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Beth McMullen: And it shows up, it shows up, you know, it shows up at the very end of this… this opening, but I think it could be… it could better serve the novel if it was moved forward right away. So we know right away that this is a kid who's got issues with her sister.

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Lisa Schmid: Well, and I want to see it not where she's thinking it or describing it, I want…

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Lisa Schmid: maybe, you know, the Graham and the sister to come in the picture, and the sister's doing… there's an interaction where you get, without telling us that there is a situation between these two. You know, whether it's the way that, you know, the other sister's reacting, the golden child is, like, you know, making faces, or, like, snuggling up to Graham, or doing something where she doesn't have to tell us.

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Lisa Schmid: we can totally see what the dynamics are between these sisters, and that's what makes it fun, because we've all had, you know, interactions with family members or whatever, that you can immediately, you'll get a reaction, the reader will be like, oh, I feel that. Like, the whole point of writing this part, you want the reader to feel something and to connect with the characters, whether it's, you know, the golden child sister.

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Lisa Schmid: or the main character, you want those, all those feelings and those complex emotions, like, spit out on the page so that we're all like, yeah, I don't like her, I want to see where this goes.

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Beth McMullen: Yeah, that you're… I think it's your…

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Beth McMullen: You're walking that fine line where you're making the reader empathize with Ivy.

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Beth McMullen: And therefore, feeling the same way she does about… Brooke.

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Lisa Schmid: Right. And…

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Beth McMullen: I think… There's a lot of references to the grandmother, but…

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Beth McMullen: they don't really take us anywhere. For instance, Grams was a stickler for clean and just about everything else. That's too broad for me to really get my arms around the grandmother, and who she is, and why her visit is not going to be greeted with, open arms.

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Beth McMullen: So, I think you have…

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Beth McMullen: I think the author has great opportunity here to build some serious tension, and give us, you know, more details that ground us in this moment, so that we're just

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Beth McMullen: In it.

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Lisa Schmid: Yeah, and I feel like there's a lot going on in this family.

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Lisa Schmid: You can… you can see kind of where… what the… the author's trying to get to, but I just think the whole showing, not telling, is… is something that she needs to really embrace.

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Lisa Schmid: The other thing I would suggest for her, and this is something that we suggest all the time, is I think she should go out and… and read more books. Read more books in this genre. Go and read 20 books, 25 books, and just…

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Lisa Schmid: really, you know, make notes, highlight, do whatever, get it in paperback so you don't feel bad, you know, messing up a book, but really see how authors can

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Lisa Schmid: do pacing, and how they, work in the showing instead of telling, and how they… how a chapter works, getting pacing and, you know, narrowing down description and setting. There's a place and time for setting and description, and you really need to fine-tune that, as you're writing a story.

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Beth McMullen: I've been looking lately, when I've been reading books, I've really been studying the first pages, and I read… personally, I read mostly adult books at this point in my life,

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Beth McMullen: And… I have noticed that… The vast majority of them… Start fast.

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Beth McMullen: So, there's no buildup to where we're going, and I think it is the result of our very short attention spans, and we've talked about this, you know, ad nauseum on this show, but people don't stick around for more than the length of a TikTok video, so…

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Beth McMullen: Your opening has to bring the reader really quickly into the…

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Beth McMullen: Who this is, and what are the stakes.

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Beth McMullen: Right? And you have to… you have to do that so fast, and I find that…

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Beth McMullen: I find that…

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Beth McMullen: adult books are… are jumping right in. They're… there's just… you are immersed… you are immersed immediately in…

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Beth McMullen: this situation. And if it doesn't do that.

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Beth McMullen: I find myself beginning to drift!

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Lisa Schmid: And you don't ever want your reader to drift.

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Lisa Schmid: Yeah, there's no slow burn anymore. Like, and I think when I say go read a book, don't read a book from, you know, even 5 years ago. Read a book that's been published, you know, books that have been published in the last year, because even those books were purchased

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Lisa Schmid: you know, 2 years ago. And so, you really have to take into consideration what…

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Lisa Schmid: the market is demanding right now, and especially when I went to ALA, everyone's talking about, you know, short, quick, like, get to the point as quick as you can, because if it doesn't grab your attention, they're gonna pick up their phone and start scrolling instead of reading your book, which is sad.

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Beth McMullen: Totally true. They're gonna go watch cat videos, or maybe that's just me… That's you!

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Lisa Schmid: Thank you!

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Beth McMullen: That's me, that's me. But I think, also, like, there's a lot of really great detail. I think it just needs to be spread out, right? You've gotta… you've gotta get people hooked, and then you can start adding this stuff in that gives it a lot of texture and atmosphere. I think…

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Beth McMullen: I think one of the things this author's not gonna struggle with is voice, and I think that's, like.

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Lisa Schmid: Right.

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Beth McMullen: enormous, because I think she knows her character, I get the sense, I can… I can see this kid in my head, so that's… that's, like, you've…

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Beth McMullen: You've jumped over the biggest hurdle, and now you just have more, like, structural changes to try and make sure that you get that emotional hook very early, that you lean into some of the specificity, and you kind of ground us in that setting a little bit sooner with specific

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Beth McMullen: sensory details, and then I.

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Lisa Schmid: Is it a…

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Beth McMullen: Off to the races!

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Beth McMullen: So that is it for today's episode. We are back in two weeks with more fresh content for Season 5. Please remember to leave us a review, please, please, please, and sign up for our newsletter at our website, writerswithwinkles.net. We really need those reviews, so thank you in advance.

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Beth McMullen: So until next time, happy reading, writing, and listening!

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Beth McMullen: Bye, Lisa!

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Lisa Schmid: Beth, bye guys!