4.32 How to do tasks you’ve been putting off (a special double coaching episode!)

This is the first in a series of live coaching episodes, where I work with students currently in The PhD Life Coach membership on issues that affect their academic lives. This week we’re starting with an old favourite - procrastination! Thoko and Deb are at different stages in their PhD journey but both struggle with procrastination and focus. We discuss why we often procrastinate planning, how we avoid working on tasks that involve accepting external critique, and why walking in the rain can be a great analogy to understand how to do tasks we’ve been putting off. 

If you liked this episode, you should check out my episode on how to stop procrastinating.

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I'm Dr Vikki Wright, ex-Professor and certified life coach and I help everyone from PhD students to full Professors to get a bit less overwhelmed and thrive in academia. Please make sure you subscribe, and I would love it if you could find time to rate, review and tell your friends! You can send them this universal link that will work whatever the podcast app they use. http://pod.link/1650551306?i=1000695434464

I also host a free online community for academics at every level. You can sign up on my website, The PhD Life Coach. com - you'll receive regular emails with helpful tips and access to free online group coaching every single month! Come join and get the support you need.

Transcript

Vikki: Hello and welcome to the PhD Life Coach podcast. And this is one of a series of episodes that I'm making at the moment where we do coaching with actual members of the PhD life coach membership. So they have kindly volunteered to come on to get coached about something that is challenging them at the moment. There's a whole series of these gonna happen, three or four different episodes and today we are really thinking about procrastination. So thank you so much Thoko and Deb for coming on. Why don't you guys go ahead and introduce yourself. 

Thoko: Hi, I'm Thoko. And I'm based in South Africa and I'm doing my PhD on austerity and fiscal policy. I'm really excited to be here and to go through the weeds of the procrastinating that I'm doing. 

Vikki: Perfect. And Deb.

Deb: Hi, I am Debbie. I'm based in Wales, in the uk and I am doing my PhD in technology enhanced learning. So I'm looking at social support in social networking sites and wellbeing and things like that. 

Vikki: Perfect. And you are towards the end, aren't you, Deb? 

Deb: Uh, yeah, apparently so, yes. 

Vikki: Apparently so, and Thoko, remind me what stage you are at.

Thoko: I'm right at the beginning finalizing my proposal. 

Vikki: I thought that was the case. So we've got different sort of ends of the PhD spectrum, but so quite similar issues. So what we're gonna do, we're gonna start out with, okay, so Deb, I'm gonna ask you to turn your camera off, but you will be watching in the background, same as you do in the coaching calls. So you're thinking about how this applies in your life as well. So we'll see you again in a minute. So Thoko, tell me a little bit more about something specific that you are procrastinating at the moment. 

Thoko: So the main thing that I've really noticed around my PhD work was the step between the writing the draft and then getting feedback and then working on the feedback that I received.

Thoko: And the main thing was that I defended my proposal and I got feedback on the proposal that I just can't seem to get started going on and I can feel that there's a real block in being able to incorporate the comments and to produce what I want as a lovely, beautiful proposal that's ready to go.

Vikki: Perfect. So tell me more about what that block feels like. 

Thoko: Pretty irritating actually, because it feels like it should be a fairly simple process. I think my supervisors, I have two wonderful, very supportive supervisors who I think expected this to be done in a week, incorporate the comments and resend it.

Thoko: And it's been kind of three months, and I've only managed to sort of start on the revisions, on an airplane flight that I took for two hours where I was stuck in the airplane and I couldn't get up really easily and move around and move away from it. I almost say I have a picture of what I want the proposal to look like, but when I sit down to work on it, it doesn't look like the picture.

Vikki: So tell me more about how this actually goes. So this is on your to-do list as something that needs doing. Do you not decide that you're going to do it today or do you decide you're gonna do it but not sit down to do it? Or do you sit down to do it, open it, stare at it? Where does it sort of break down? 

Thoko: So it lives on my rolling to-do list. I've even tried to incorporate, you know, from the membership learnings to make it more specific. So like, make the comment to-do list. 'cause this is not, it's verbal comments, not written comments. And so to make them written so that was one activity and I haven't even done that. So it rolls. And then I do everything else. So I'm like, oh, I'm uploading my data onto Atlas Ti. I am reading articles on my methodologies. I'm reading and I'm working quite hard on the PhD, but I'm not doing the very thing that needs to be done to enable me to continue this year in my second year, which is to just revise this proposal.

Vikki: Okay, perfect. So you've narrowed it down to something quite specific. So it's not that you've got this respond to comments as a kind of notional thing but then whenever it comes to the decision making about what to do today, you are doing different tasks. 

Thoko: Mm-hmm. 

Vikki: How do you like justify that to yourself? What's the story you tell yourself?

Thoko: For quite a bit of the time. So I would say from like January, February, a lot of my excuses was, no, no, I need to read more so that when I make the changes, I update all of, 'cause one of the main comments was quite a, it was a time range comments. So it means I needed to up update quite a bit of the content.

Thoko: Which I started in December already, but I was like, oh no, I need to keep doing this, so that there was that, then there was, oh, I need to work a little bit more on my methodology section. And so I need to read more on the methodology. So I'm doing all the kind of easy stuff than the sit down.

Thoko: And I think, you know, if I'm honest, and I feel quite self-conscious about it is that I just assume that my proposal would pass straight away. I didn't expect to have comments. So I had bought a bottle of champagne to be like, I've submitted my proposal and then I was like, told, no, no, you must make changes.

Thoko: I was like, what? This is crazy. So there's a little bit of a, I'm also maybe a little bit mad about having to make the changes. And I'm also eager to get onto doing the actual PhD, so I justify the reading as well. This is also partly getting me on the road, so I spent most of my February doing my ethics clearance and all of that kind of stuff but not working on this substantive bit. And to be fair, I don't think I've really consciously put it on the table in the way that you have of asking the question of why am I not doing this today? 

Vikki: Yeah. Because when we have stuff that's generically on the to-do list for some point soon, but we never actually ask ourselves the question, is today the day? Then it can live there for ages without us quite noticing that we are never bringing it onto the table. I'm interested in these emotions that you've got around it though. So you say you didn't expect to have to make changes and that that's quite frustrating. Is it that you don't like the changes that they've suggested? Or is it that you just resent the fact there are changes being made and that you've gotta do more work on it? 

Thoko: No, I think it's more a case of I didn't do a good enough job and maybe I can't do this.

Vikki: So you don't mind the first time round the things they're suggesting you change?

Thoko: No, no, no. 

Vikki: It's not that you're like, but I don't wanna change that. I don't wanna do it like that. Okay, fine. So you're making it mean that you didn't do a good enough job. 

Thoko: Yeah. And so will my second version meet their expectations? Can I live up to what?

Vikki: So sometimes when we have a thought that's holding us back like that, I didn't do a good enough job, we get to look at it and we get to say, is that true? And to ask answer whether that's true or not. I wanna ask you what you mean by what would a good enough job have been? 

Thoko: So I'm somebody who's used to getting distinctions. I don't get told correct your work. And I think that is the big adjustment from masters to PhD, I think, is that the PhD is about reworking, rewriting, reworking. And I think this is new terrain for me. And so essentially I felt like I failed. Like they basically gave me a, an F minus and I now need to resubmit. Yeah. It's, it sounds silly saying it, but that's kind of where I'm at.

Vikki: Because why would it be a problem? Because the thing is, okay, they haven't graded it. So we know it's not a fail per se, but and I say this with love and respect, it wasn't good enough to just go through. 

Thoko: Yeah. 

Vikki: It needed changes. So to some extent, there's some facts there, right? 

Thoko: Yeah. 

Vikki: That maybe it was a good enough first attempt. Love that. I'm sure it was, but it wasn't good enough. It wasn't detailed enough, or it wasn't whatever was missing enough. To go through with no changes. Why is that a problem? What do you make that mean?

Thoko: That I'm not good enough to do the PhD. 

Vikki: Yeah. And this is why it's so important to pick this apart. Yeah. And to notice that all procrastination problems are some sort of emotion thing going on. 

Thoko: Yeah. 

Vikki: Because the problem here isn't that it wasn't good enough because it needed changes, so it wasn't good enough as it was.

Thoko: Yeah. 

Vikki: The problem is that you are then generalizing that to mean that you are not good enough. 

Thoko: Yeah. 

Vikki: What distinctions can you see between it's not good enough to get through with no changes versus I'm not good enough to do my PhD.

Thoko: So the one is based in facts like you're saying, which I haven't. I actually felt that in my chest when you said it, I was like, Ooh, okay, that's true. I don't like it, but it's true. But I know at a head level, Of course I'm PhD material. They wouldn't have accepted me otherwise. I've met all the requirements for the program.

Thoko: So the second part of that story is not based in fact and that I'm actually learning how to do a PhD. I think the, the double edge here is that I then think when I'm sitting down or I'm thinking about it, is like how if I wasn't good enough in the first place, do I now produce a good enough in the second place?

Vikki: Yes. Yeah. And the answer you've come to that so far is I need to read more. 

Thoko: Yeah. And I need to not do it and like avoid it, that way I don't see it. 

Vikki: Yes. Perfect. And that's exactly what procrastination is, right? Is avoiding emotions that we don't like or trying to solve those emotions in ways that aren't actually helping. So you are either completely avoiding the task so you don't have to think about it, or you are solving, quote unquote, this idea that you are not good enough by going, okay, well if I read more then I'll be good enough. And at some stage I'll then be able to do this while avoiding these uncomfortable emotions 'cause they won't be there. 'cause I'll be good enough then because I'll have read enough. 

Thoko: Magically. Yeah. 

Vikki: Perfect. And I'm, I take it, that's not working at the moment. 

Thoko: No. 

Vikki: No. Perfect. Okay. So what we get to think about instead is what do I need to think in order to do some of those corrections, to do that first step? So, I love the fact you've already identified that the first job is to turn their verbal feedback into a list of, to-dos. What, in fact, I'm gonna ask it slightly differently. What emotions do you need to be willing to tolerate in order to do that?

Thoko: The feeling of having failed. But knowing that, that, that's not the game I'm playing anymore. I'm doing a PhD, I'm not playing the grading game. That only happens right at the end. Right now, I'm in the, you know, iteration production, kind of thinking through the ideas. And essentially those comments were about making sure that the PhD can pass.

Thoko: 'cause if you set up the proposal wrong, then you can end up with a PhD that that isn't possible, right? Because it's the guide. The proposal is the guidepost for the PhD. So really sitting with that, that feeling of, okay, so it wasn't good enough the first time around, but that doesn't mean you are not good enough, really pushing that. And it, yeah, it feels quite, quite, quite overwhelming knowing the distinction. But knowing I'm not taking the feeling away. Right. 

Vikki: Yeah. And that, okay. I'm gonna give you a strange analogy for this, but I think it might help. So whenever we're trying to do something that we've got big emotions about, what we wanna be doing is a kind of two-pronged approach. On one hand, we wanna be reminding ourselves of thoughts we believe, or actions that help, us to change the way we're thinking about it. Okay, so you've come up with some really good ones, reminding yourself they're doing this to help you. Reminding yourself that in a PhD, this isn't a sign that you failed, that this is about iterations and moving it forward, reminding yourself that you are capable of going through this list and writing it down. All those things, right? We get to do those things, but often people try to only do that, and if they don't make the negative emotions go away, they still don't do the task. But the double pronged part is also then accepting the, we are not gonna magic all those emotions away. We are gonna remind ourselves of thoughts that help, which is gonna minimize it.

Vikki: But we are probably also gonna have to tolerate some of these emotions too. So the way, the analogy that came into my mind while you were talking is when you look out the window and the weather's terrible, and you know you need to go out and do something, and you're like, oh, I just don't want to, it looks awful out there. It's raining, it's windy, it's horrid, it's cold. And we take a two-pronged approach. We say, okay, I'm gonna put a raincoat on. I'm gonna put decent shoes on. I'm gonna put a hat on. I'm gonna put things around me so it doesn't feel quite so bad. And that is the thoughts that you have, that is the, I'm gonna put myself in, you know, you remember, put yourself in a coworking session so you're being supported by people around you we're doing things to make it not feel so bad.

Vikki: But we're also saying, and I'm probably still gonna get soggy and a bit cold, but you know what, I can deal with being soggy and a bit cold for a couple of hours or whatever. Okay. And that's the bit that I think people forget is that we can try and make it feel better to some extent, but we also need to say to, and I'm willing to tolerate feeling a bit rubbish while I do this.

Thoko: Right. 

Vikki: Okay. So let's just think about this very first part. So I presume you've got a recording or a transcript or something of the verbal. Excellent. So just thinking about translating that into a list, you've come up with a bunch of thoughts that might help. What emotions might you still have to tolerate, even though you're telling yourself this is important, you're telling yourself this is to help, this isn't a sign you're failing, what emotions are we still gonna tolerate? 

Thoko: I think the big one is the not feeling good enough. That's gonna be the main one. And believing that I can make the changes to the standard that they want. 

Vikki: Be careful what you're doing though, because we are thinking specifically only about the task of breaking the verbal feedback down into specific comments.

Thoko: Mm. 

Vikki: And you are talking about whether you are capable of making the changes. 

Thoko: Yes. 

Vikki: Okay. One of the things with procrastination is we wanna pull it all in. It's a little bit like when you look at your messy house and say, you know, oh, I can't tidy all this up. Instead we say, okay, can I put the clothes away? Or whatever, right? So if you are saying, yeah, yeah, I can make all these changes, we don't need to reassure ourselves about that right now. 'cause that is not your job right now. 

Thoko: Right. 

Vikki: Your only task is getting that verbal feedback into a list of changes. 

Thoko: Right. 

Vikki: So one of the thoughts you can do when your brain goes, oh, I don't know if I'm gonna be able to make those changes. Then you go, my job is only to make what the changes are clear. I'm gonna worry later about whether I can answer them or not. That's not a today problem. 

Thoko: Yeah. 

Vikki: How would that feel to kind of separate that out a little bit? 

Thoko: I think that's extremely useful. 'cause I think I'm piling on the stories. And it's interesting because in my to-do list, I've had the write out the verbal comments and then right underneath I've got the, and make the changes. 

Vikki: Yeah. That shouldn't be on your to-do list yet. 

Thoko: Yeah. 

Vikki: And make changes. Not on the to-do list until you've got the changes.

Thoko: Yeah. Yeah. 

Vikki: How long do you anticipate it to take to turn the verbal changes into a list? 

Thoko: Well, it's uh, probably like two hours max because I've got an hour of recording, so an hour taking notes. Stop, start if that, yeah. 

Vikki: Okay. 

Thoko: Yeah. 

Vikki: Are you willing to tolerate feeling overwhelmed, to tolerate feeling uncomfortable in a variety of ways for two hours in order to get that list turned into an actionable list?

Thoko: Absolutely, because I've been feeling every day to-do list doom, which is worse. So the having it like hanging over my head is much worse than just two hours of what you're saying, like a rainy day of being out in the rain like that. I can do that. That feels doable. Yeah. 

Vikki: Perfect. And the rest of it comes later. The adding the next task in comes later. Because this is the downside of a really clever brain, right? Any of us who've got these big, clever brains who do all these clever things, we can see all the things. We can see all the steps. And so part of us thinks we should be able to believe we can do all of it.

Vikki: We don't have to believe we can do all of it. We just need to believe we can do this next bit. And as you say, the problem with procrastination, the nightmare with procrastination is we're trying to avoid these emotions, but in doing so, we then have emotions about the fact we're procrastinating, and so one of the things I find quite useful to remind myself, and it sounds really depressing, but I promise it helps, is there's crap on both sides here, right? It feels awful to not do the thing and keep telling ourselves, I should be doing the thing. I'm not doing the thing I, it's been so long now, dah, dah, dah. And it feels awful to do the thing because I'm gonna have to face seeing exactly what it is that they want me to do, and writing it out in a list and whatever. So we get to say, okay, it feels crap on both sides of this. 

Thoko: Yeah. 

Vikki: Which version of this do I wanna experience? 

Thoko: Yeah. 

Vikki: Because our brains sort of think that by avoiding these tasks, we can avoid these emotions, but we just give ourselves these emotions for not having done it instead.

Thoko: Yeah. Yeah. 

Vikki: Okay. 

Thoko: Yeah. 

Vikki: What can you say to yourself? So same as when we're out in the rain, if we're going, this is so depressing, I shouldn't be getting wet. This is awful. I hate England, blah blah, blah. All of that. What can you be saying to yourself during this two hours where we're gonna tolerate, we are gonna try and put our raincoats on. We're gonna try and say nice things to ourselves, but we're gonna tolerate that it might not be the best two hours of our lives. What are you gonna say to yourself during and after it so that you feel as good as you can?

Thoko: That I'm actually a really good student and that I should remember that I'm learning that I'm a good student and I'm learning. This is all about learning. If I could do a PhD, then I wouldn't have to do a PhD. 

Vikki: Exactly. 

Thoko: Yeah. 

Vikki: Okay. How do you feel about in fact, have a look while, while I'm talking to Deb in a sec. You can have a look in your diary and decide when these two hours are gonna happen. 

Thoko: Yeah. Cool. 

Vikki: Okay. 

Thoko: Yeah. 

Vikki: Perfect. Thank you so much. Uh, Deb, do you wanna come on and up? If you put your camera back on for me, how was watching that for you? What did you take for yourself? 

Deb: Oh, I felt all of those things with you, Thoko. I wrote some stuff down, all the stuff that you were saying about things being on the to-do list and living there. They just live there and they don't necessarily need to be on there yet. I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, that's me. I thought Thoko was really perceptive about the stuff, you know, she, she seemed to have some real light bulb moments in that, which I thought was brilliant. . So many things resonated, like the whole avoid avoiding or trying to solve something. I'm definitely doing all of that. And your analogies were brilliant. I wrote down big messy house. Yeah, I have that. I have a big messy house actually in reality, but also in my PhD and definitely the today problems. The tomorrow problems. I think reflecting on the things you were saying, and we'll go onto this in a minute, but reflecting on the things you were saying, I was thinking Yeah. I think that's at the heart of, my problem at at the moment. Um, and I love the raincoat. Put wellies on. I love that. 

Vikki: perfect. I'm so glad. It's one of the reasons why I wanted to do these episodes is people often say, I don't quite understand how these group coaching sessions work. I don't understand why I'll get something out of seeing somebody else getting coached. But I think there's something about seeing somebody else say the thoughts that you are like, ah. I thought that too, and I thought I was the only one that thought that seeing somebody else, and then you also have that little bit of distance. It's much easier for you to see what Thoko should be, di should, should be doing. Yeah. Than it is to see it with yourself. And then it's like, oh, okay. I can see for you why that would be great. Maybe that would be great for me too. And you get to sort of translate it back in yourself. So thank you. Thank you for your reflections on that. So let's think about you. What's specifically challenging for you at the moment? 

Deb: Well, the whole specific thing is a problem for me at the moment because I'm definitely doing this thing that you just talked about, about, I'm looking at the whole mess, you know, and I know logically it's not a big mess. I know there are parts of it that are not a big mess, but that's how it feels because it does feel a bit of an overwhelming situation. So in terms of where I am right now, I feel like I've been doing this my entire life, and I'm just so over it and so ready to finish it that I just wanna get it done.

Deb: But, I flip between thinking, yeah, I can do this. Yeah. This is, I've had a good day. I understand this. I can do this, I can finish this. And then I wake up the next morning, I think what I'm doing, and I literally go and I could go like that in an hour, let alone in days. So, I suspect that is from the, just feeling overwhelmed by it all. I actually will time out in, at the end of June this year, I've been doing it that long, get rid of me. So, I have to put in an extension request. So, that request came through like a couple of days ago and I'm just like, oh, another thing I've gotta do now. So I now, and I've put the form in and they've now come back and said, oh, we need more information. So they want me to give like a plan as to when I'm gonna do things. And I think that made me a bit like a rabbit in the headlights. 'cause that was a bit like, but if I write it down, then I've gotta get it done kind of thing.

Deb: So I've got that as a bit of a problem. And then my other problem, I'm doing the procrastination definitely, but I'm jumping from one thing to another thing instead of getting that thing done. So at least I can tick something off. And I think the other thing as well is that while Thoko was talking, I was thinking about this is, it's obviously this massive imposter syndrome, which just sits on my shoulder all the time. And I kind of started this PhD thinking, well I'm gonna do a taught PhD. So I do like the first bit, so at least if it all goes wrong, I get a couple of modules under my belt. And I think subconsciously I kind of thought that that's what would happen. I thought I would never get to this stage, and weirdly I find myself here.

Deb: So I think there's definitely a bit of that with the whole, you know, oh, am I actually capable of finishing this thing? And I, like Thoko was saying, I know logically, yes, I must be. But when it's happening to you. You just doubt yourself, don't you? So in terms of, I said, see, specificity is the problem for me.

Deb: So I think it's, it's, I know I need to get this plan written out, so I know that, and that is the frightening thing for me. 'cause I'm gonna have to commit to that. So I know I need to do that, but then I also need a strategy, I suppose to do, do this thing that you were talking about the, I don't, I don't have to do all the things. I don't have to write all the things tomorrow. I just need a plan to get me there. 

Vikki: Okay.

Deb: Does 

Deb: that help? 

Vikki: Yes. 

Deb: Sorry, does, that's very, 

Vikki: no, let's think about it in terms of the planning then. 

Deb: Yeah. 

Vikki: Okay. So you've got to write this plan. What length extension are you asking for? 

Deb: Well, I asked my supervisor what, what was the best approach? Was it to kind of say the shortest amount of time that I felt I needed or the longest amount of time. And she was like, no, I think you need to put in say, a year so what I've put in for is a year, but obviously now I need to plan that year. 

Vikki: And tell me more about why making that plan feels difficult, like you're putting off making that plan. 

Deb: Um, well I haven't, uh, in my defense, I haven't been putting an off for too long. 'Cause I've only had this for, I've only been sitting with it for a couple of days and I work full-time study part-time. I've had a really busy couple of weeks in work. So I feel like I haven't touched my PhD stuff for a few days, you know, and I think what it is deep down is that I know I'm gonna have to face all the stuff that I need to do.

Vikki: Mm-hmm. 

Deb: And by making myself plan it out, that makes me face it. Whereas at the minute I can just push it into a big shape and say I have this stuff to do. 

Vikki: Yeah. 

Deb: Don't actually know what stuff is in it, but there's a big lot of stuff. I think that's what it is. 

Vikki: That sort of avoiding seeing it all. 

Deb: Yeah.

Vikki: Because what are you worried you will see? 

Deb: I'm worried, I will see the sheer amount of time that it's gonna take, I suppose, 

Vikki: and what's wrong with the amount of time it's gonna take, 

Deb: That I already feel guilty for the amount of time it's already taken. And this is gonna be an extra bit of time. So because I don't, with the best will in the world, I don't think I would be in a position, I might be in a position to get a full draft done by the end of June. Possibly depending on how you term draft. But I wouldn't be in a position to finalize it. And obviously if I was gonna be in a position to finalize it, they were needing to look for examiners and things now, and I'm not with the best will in the world at that stage. 

Vikki: Okay. So, I'm intrigued by this notion that you're sort of partly arguing why you can't quite make it by June, but are also intimidated by making a year long plan from June. 

Deb: Yeah. Yeah. 

Vikki: That's a fun combo. 

Deb: Yeah, it is. Yeah. 

Vikki: Because if you think you can nearly probably get to first draft stage of everything by June. And the thing that's holding up really is examiners and things like that. Why does making a year long plan feel difficult? 

Deb: Yeah. 

Vikki: Because that's a year from June, right? 

Deb: Oh, that's a good point. I was thinking it would be a year from now. Yes. 

Vikki: I mean, I assume if you're asking for an extension, I mean, double check that. I assume if you're asking for an extension, it's a year from the end of your registration. 

Deb: Yeah, yeah. I mean, the other thing is when I say I could get a full draft. I mean, the stage I'm at is , I've got a draft of my chapter one, a draft of my introduction, draft of my theoretical framework. No, my methodology, my theoretical framework is a bit of a nightmare 'cause I need to revisit that. And i'm in the middle of trying to write my findings, so I'm, again, I'm from one to the other, to the other. That's the thing. I don't really, I wouldn't say I have anything tied up with a nice little bow that's done. And I guess all of these things are tabs in my brain that are open. 

Vikki: Okay. Perfect. What if a plan was a way to decide which tabs are open? 

Deb: Yeah. Yeah. That would, that would be helpful 

Vikki: because it strikes me at the moment that you are seeing a plan as a pressure that the plan then forces you to have stuff done by certain times, and that there will be judgment from yourself if no one else, if you don't hit those bits of the plan and things. And so it strikes me that this plan has become this thing we're avoiding because we don't want the pressure associated with it. We don't want the kind of reality of that in our face. 

Deb: Yes. Yeah. That's exactly it. 

Vikki: But it also strikes me that a lot of the things that are frustrating you at the moment, the jumping from thing to thing, not knowing what you need to focus on, trying to think about all of them at once, having too many tabs open, feeling like a headless chicken are the result of not having a plan. 

Deb: Yeah. Yeah. It's like my plan went out the window. That's the thing. And I think I just need, I mean. The procrastination element does come in there is that over the last however many years, I have loads of pretty Gantt charts. Just don't work for me. You know? And that's another thing as well, is that over the years, if I could go back to my, go back to when I started and give myself some advice, it was to be more organized. Because I feel like everything is everywhere. 

Vikki: You know? You know, that means that you know more now than you did when you started. 

Deb: Yeah. Yeah. And when we were talking earlier with Thoko, I was like, yeah, I remember being in that position where Thoko is now and then, 'cause you can't see ahead, right? You can't see it, but you could look back and it's like, yes, I do know more. I do know more. I am in a different position. 

Vikki: But we focus on the, we should have known it then rather than being proud that we've learned it now. 

Deb: Yeah. Yeah. 

Vikki: Okay. That's just a sign. If you look back and think, oh, I wish I'd done X, Y, Z, that means you know more now, which is a great thing.

Vikki: Okay, so one of the things we can do with when we're procrastinating a task is change the way we are thinking about that task. And so here, if the making a plan is a way of justifying why you need an extension about it, it'll put pressure on you. It'll be something I have to commit to. I have to perform, I have to whatever, then yeah, absolutely. And I absolutely accept you haven't been, you're not procrastinating it per se. 'cause you've only just just had it. But it's this thing that you don't really want to get on with. I think if we can start thinking about that task as something that is gonna give you the brain space you need.

Deb: Yeah, yeah. 

Vikki: That is gonna give you the clarity that you need. It's gonna give you something to go back to so that when your brain is going, I need to do this and I need to do this, and I need to do this, you look at that and you go, no, I need to do this thing. That's what's the, or that's what's on the plan at the moment.

Deb: Yeah. 

Vikki: And that it's actually a supportive framework rather than a kind of punitive one. 

Deb: Yeah. 

Vikki: How does that feel? Does that feel plausible? 

Deb: Yeah. 

Vikki: That a plan could bring some clarity. 

Deb: It does. As you were saying it, I was thinking, I'm one of these people that I actually don't like to have commitments in my diary because I might not want to do that that day. This is obviously playing itself out, isn't it? 

Vikki: Yeah. And I mean, you get to decide, right? If you want to not make commitments do it when you feel like it and that works for you. Let's just do that, right, and stop telling yourself that you should have more of a structure. But I'm guessing at the moment from all the things you've said, that doing it when you feel like doing it isn't working that great for you at the moment? 

Deb: Yeah. Well it's doing when I feel like it, but doing, when I've got it's again, this thing about got the time to do it, you have to make the time to do it. And I know that. But then the kind of overwhelm turns itself into I'm at my desk, but I'm not necessarily doing the bit that I need to do.

Vikki: Yeah. 

Deb: It like Thokos list. 

Vikki: Yeah, definitely. So one of the things that I want you to think about your plan as is a sort of series of boxes that you are gonna throw things into. I've done this for this year. There's so many things I want to do to develop the membership further. I've got another sneaky secret thing that members know about if you're in the community but the people on the podcast don't yet. I've got lots of things that I want to be doing this year and they're notionally thrown into Q1, Q2, Q3, Q4, and so when in Q1, my brain's like, oh, I want to do whatever. It's like, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I know that's more exciting. 'cause Q1 is processes and like legal stuff and tax stuff is very boring.

Vikki: And I'm like, I wanna do this. Nope. That's a Q2 job. It, that's a Q2 job. We're doing that later. We're in Q1, we're doing these tasks right now. And so we have them notionally thrown into things then whether it's something I'm excited to do or whether it's something I'm worried about doing, I can do the, no, no, that's a Q3 problem. We're worried that's, that will happen then. And it enables you to much easier choose between the things you're doing now. 'cause you're choosing between a much smaller array of things. Okay. So what would be, let's not think about the whole plan, but if you were saying between now and the end of our quarter, let's say we've got like five weeks left of the membership quarter, what's in this little bucket of time?

Deb: Hmm.

Deb: I think where I am at the moment, where I'm psychologically I want to feel further into my findings and I think that that will give me something to hang things on. 'cause in my plan, I am going back to thinking, oh, right, okay. I need a specific way of tackling things and writing that in my plan. And of course it's occurring to me now as we are talking, that actually, my plan starts now, which is I'm gonna carry on and I'm gonna finish this 'cause this is what I had in my head. I want to get to the end of this, my findings that I'm writing. So if I get to the end of that, then that gives it, I suppose it, it's like you say, isn't it? It's put a few bits of clothes away. So that's the, that's one of the bits that I can then take off my list. So that's what it would look like for me over the next five weeks. 

Vikki: Okay, perfect. So what we want with a plan, we want it to be increasingly granular the closer it gets to us. So what we wanna be thinking about, if we're making a plan over a year, the stuff that's happening in the next month or so, we want to be pretty detailed.

Vikki: We want to know specifically what we're focusing on, specifically what we're doing, da da da. The other stuff, you know, I can't remember whether you came to my dealing with a to-do list webinar this week or not, but one of the things we talked about there was vague tasks. You can have vague tasks like write discussion in your Q3 plan, that's fine, but by the time it's Q3, we need to break that down. We don't need to break it down now. 

Deb: Yeah. 

Vikki: Okay. So, when you are thinking about making your plan, one of the big things that helps with procrastination and making plans not get overwhelming is the further ahead it is, the less detail you need. So we are dumping big chunks at this stage in those, and then we go, okay, the one or two big chunks that are in the quarter I'm in at the moment are these two. And they need breaking down into much more detail. 

Deb: Yeah. 

Vikki: Yeah. Because I'm, you said procrastination's part of the problem, but I'm also jumping between tasks. I'm gonna take the liberty of suggesting that jumping between tasks is procrastination. 

Deb: Yeah. Yeah. 

Vikki: Because you are jumping when that one becomes uncomfortable. Or when the thought of this other thing becomes uncomfortable enough that you want to jump across and 

Deb: Yeah. 

Vikki: Yeah. So if you are behaving in a way to avoid emotions, it's still procrastination. Procrastination is not just scrolling on your phone. 

Deb: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Vikki: And the more we can be clear, okay. Findings between now and the end, 'cause we've got Easter and stuff coming up as well, between now and the end of our quarter. My findings are my task. I need to make this plan. Get my Yeah. Get that done. 

Deb: Yeah. 

Vikki: And I'm finding plans and the findings. 

Deb: Findings, yeah. 

Vikki: And then when your brain says, oh, but I should be whatever we say, this is my task, this. And if it's uncomfortable, we think about things we talked about with Thoko, how can I say things to myself that make it feel a little bit less uncomfortable? How can I tolerate some of those emotions and be okay afterwards? But by having a clear focus that we're pulling ourselves back to 

Deb: Yeah.

Vikki: Makes it so much easier. 

Deb: Yeah. Yeah. You're right. 

Vikki: Perfect. Thoko. Do you wanna come back on? How was that? How was watching Deb? 

Thoko: Oh, it was so lovely, Deb. Thank you so much for sharing. I think one of the things I really, um, took away from this is I'm exactly the same with plans and I think I've used them as a kind of stick. And so to start thinking about it as a supportive framework and also more detailed, closer dates and then less detail further out. It seems to be a little less daunting than trying to think of all the bits and pieces for the whole story. And I totally resonate with the jumping between tasks and that being procrastination and a little bit of imposter syndrome. And coming back to something that, Vikki said earlier is, the, um why are you avoiding decisions? 

Deb: Mm-hmm. 

Thoko: So why are you avoiding saying, I'm just gonna focus on this, you know, and that's quite a powerful tool actually to have in our toolbox now because, I've never thought of it as an avoiding a decision, but now I can be like, okay, you're sitting here reading another reading, printing another reading. What decision are you avoiding? You know? So I hear you. But it's so exciting that you're in the final stretch. That's very exciting. So I'm rooting for you. 

Deb: Thank you. 

Vikki: I love this. And this is what I love so much about our community is that no matter what stage you're at, what different countries you are in, what different topics you're studying, so much of this we have in common and we can support each other through. And I'd really encourage both of you to use the coworking space when you're trying to get on with these things and stuff, and so that you have the rest of that community around you. So thank you both so much for coming on. I really appreciate it. Thank you everybody for listening. I'm sure you have got lots out of it and I will see you all next week.