EP06: Nature’s Nourishment - Exploring the Health Benefits of Raw Milk with Edwin Shank and Tommy Wheatley

In this fascinating episode, we sit down with Edwin Shank from The Family Cow and Tommy Wheatley from Raw Milk & Deadlifts to discuss all things raw milk - the health benefits, the enzymes and nutrients, the safety and risks, what to do if you don't have access to raw milk, and so much more!

If you have any questions about raw milk and whether or not you should be including it in your diet, this is an excellent podcast to listen to.  We love raw milk and see it as an amazing, nourishing food God designed for us.  We also know that sometimes people can't handle any type of milk and need to work on gut-healing before enjoying this wholesome food - if this is you, send us an email at hello@godsgoodtable.com to see if there are ways we can help you on your healing journey. 


Resources mentioned on the show:
The Family Cow Website
Raw Milk & Deadlifts Website
Raw Milk & Deadlifts Instagram
The Raw Milk Institute
GGT Podcast Episode 1 with Raw Milk & Deadlifts
 

This episode is brought to you by our wonderful friends at Hearth & Homestead!  Hearth and Homestead offers toxin and preservative free products using time-tested ingredients like tallow sourced from Polyface Farm, cod liver oil, raw goat milk, and Dead Sea minerals.  Browse their line of artisanal soaps and skincare, herb-infused tallow balms,  baby balms, and pregnancy and postpartum products. 
Use code GGT23 for $10 off your first order at hearthandhomesteadstore.com



Episode Chapters:
02:49  Meet Edwin from The Family Cow
07:16  Meet Tommy from Raw Milk & Deadlifts
09:22  From Zero Milk to Raw Milk
11:20  500 Gallons of Raw Goodness a Day and MORE at The Family Cow
12:35  Raw Milk Fasting and How Amazing Raw Milk is as a Complete Food
17:47  Truth or Fiction: Are Humans the Only Species to Consume the Milk of Another Species?
20:53  But What About the Sugars in Milk? Can You Go Into Ketosis on a Milk Fast?
22:41  Fasting and Benefits of Kefir or Yogurt for Lower Sugar Content
26:42  Don't Have Access to Raw Milk? Do THIS to Get the Most Benefit from Pasteurized Milk
27:39  Enzymes in Raw Milk vs. Pasteurized Milk: Lactase, Phosphatase, and More
32:17  Tommy's Dairy Farming Journey
38:13  Raw Milk Safety
46:38  The Raw Milk Institute: Extensive Safety Procedures and Requirements that Ensure the Health and Safety of Raw Milk Consumers
51:09  Lactoferrins, Beneficial Bacteria, and Competitive Exclusion
55:54  Can You Get Sick From Raw Milk?
01:02:55  Raw Milk Safety for Babies and During Pregnancy
01:05:53  Milk: Not Just From Cows!
01:09:09  Thank you for joining the conversation with Edwin and Tommy!


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God's Good Table website
God's Good Table Resources
God's Good Table Blog
God's Good Table Instagram

Transcript

Maureen Diaz: Hello friends, I am here today with Tommy Wheatley from Raw Milk and Deadlifts, and my friend Edwin Shank from Our Family Cow. We are here in his office, I've just toured with him the whole farm, the milking process, the lab and everything. [00:02:00] We want to talk today about raw milk safety and raw milk benefits.

And we're actually going to start on the raw milk benefits end. But we have a lot to talk about. And Tommy, I hope you have lots of questions and we're gonna have an excellent conversation. So first off, let me introduce properly, I mentioned Tommy from Raw Milk and Deadlifts. Tommy will be speaking at our God's Good Table event at Polyface Farm again this August 11th through 13th.

I hope you, I hope you'll check that out. And Edwin owns along with his family, Our Family Cow, near Chambersburg, Pennsylvania. And he's been in business for a long time. And first I'm going to let Edwin tell you a little bit about himself. 

[00:02:49] Meet Edwin from The Family Cow

Edwin: Hello everyone. As Maureen said, I'm Edwin Shank and um, it's actually The Family Cow, but I dunno if it makes a lot of difference.

We chose the name The Family Cow whenever we first got [00:03:00] into raw milk because even though I grew up on raw milk and my family grew up on raw milk, we were aware that a lot of people didn't hardly know what it was. They kind of had these questions. And it came to me one day that if, if I would describe it to people like this, that you have your cow, you have a cow in your backyard. You feed her organic grass and hay and things like that. And you milk her and you bring that milk into your refrigerator and the, you know, the cream rises and, and all that. And it's, you know, you can make butter and things from that milk. That, that milk, you would say is like from the family cow, right? Mm-hmm. This is, this is the family cow milk. 

And I felt that was the best way to describe the kind of milk that we wanted to share with other people. Because even though we had multiple family cows, for those that couldn't afford to have the space time, energy, expertise, whatever, to have their own family cow, that we could give them the same experience as if they had a family cow.

So that's why we come up with the name. 

Maureen Diaz: And I have to [00:04:00] apologize because I was remembering perhaps incorrectly, that at one point in time you were talking about changing it from The to Our? Maybe, yeah. Okay, so that's. That's okay. I always say The Family Cow. 

The Family Cow, yeah. 

Yeah, yeah, okay. So, um, and your family has farmed for five generations?

Edwin: Yes. Yes. 

Maureen Diaz: Not always organically pasture based. 

Edwin: Yes. Uh, probably the first two generations were organic by default, simply because it was before World War II. They didn't have crop chemicals, then my grandfather would've started with chemicals and my father continued that. 

I started with chemicals in 1990. And we actually farmed for 15 years as conventional chemical farmers, I call 'em. So we actually converted the farm to organic starting in 2006. Starting 2005, the fall of 2005, we, we, in our last chemical application of anything here. So it's been going on 20 years, 18 years now. 

Maureen Diaz: Wow, that's a long time. And, and what we see outside the [00:05:00] door here are verdant pastures and very healthy cows and a very kind of happy, peaceful kind of life for everyone. 

Edwin: For the people too. I would say, um, I remember my son, who's now 31; he was however old then, 12 or something like that. And I remember him making the comment when we started organic farming, when we actually got the cows out of the barn, that that was a revolutionary idea. Our cows stayed in the barn all the time. 

We got them out of the barn, we got 'em on the pasture. They ran around, they threw their tails in the air, and they, and they just enjoyed themselves being in the grass. And I remember him saying to me, and it was really special to me as a dad to hear my boy say this.

He said, this is the most fun year ever, this is great. You know, and, and our family still says that, that all five of my sons and even a daughter who's married, her husband, my son-in-law, is also involved in organic farming, raising pork and beef and stuff for us. But the entire family [00:06:00] is involved in the organic farming. It's been so good to work together. 

Maureen Diaz: And it also just makes so much more sense to allow the cows, excuse me, the cattle to harvest their own feed, deposit the fertilizer rather than depending upon tractors and chemical fertilizers. It just makes a lot more sense. So, yeah, it's a beautiful life and it's easier than chemical farming. Mm-hmm. And with much less financial and physical input. 

Edwin: Um, different inputs. Different inputs. Yeah. There's the, the thing I tell people sometimes is that when you're organic farming, you don't need to buy chemicals. You need to run a bush hog. You know, you, you, you take care of weed control. You don't spray the fields, but you cultivate the fields if you're growing corn or something like that.

Yeah. And so there's, there's different inputs. It's not necessarily cheaper. Uh, it's definitely more labor intensive in a lot of ways. But it is cleaner and pure, and it is just nice to know that we're not depending on poisons mm-hmm to manage this. [00:07:00] We essentially are using a mechanical method of weed control or other methods of, yeah, just natural methods of controlling. It's not an out of control system, it's a different way of controlling weeds and things like that. 

Maureen Diaz: Right, yeah, a better way, the way God designed. Um, yep. 

[00:07:16] Meet Tommy from Raw Milk & Deadlifts

Maureen Diaz: Tommy, do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself and how you came to be interested in raw milk, you and Luke? 

Tommy: Yeah, for sure. So, um, I grew up drinking store bought milk, you know, grew up on 2% reduced fat milk from the grocery store. And that was just a staple, kind of, of our household and never thought anything of it. But then in high school, I started to notice I would get really bad acne or mucus or inflammation because I was working out a lot at that time. And I had heard people start to say in like, the kind of health movement, that's about the time I started to get into[00:08:00] you know, healthy foods and fitness, that milk is bad.

You know, that was the big trend going on at that time. So I cut it out and when I cut it out, I did feel a lot better. So I was sold instantly that okay, milk is bad. And um, for I would say three to four years after that I was on predominantly the milk alternatives, so the almond milks, cashew milks, things like that.

And like I said, I was a believer because anytime I would reintroduce store-bought dairy, even if it was organic, anytime I would reintroduce it, I would notice those symptoms come up again. Mm-hmm. And then I started to hear people talk about raw milk and just from whatever it was, reading, podcasts, I started to hear raw milk get brought up and people were really putting it in its own category, very removed from store bought [00:09:00] milk.

That just really got my attention, to be honest, more than I was even curious about it as a health food, I just remember hearing people describe how it's raw unpasteurized, the full cream. That just sounded delicious to me, to be honest. I wish it was more of like a deep health journey, but I was just thinking this stuff probably tastes great.

[00:09:22] From Zero Milk to Raw Milk

Tommy: So I wanted to get some, I was living in Florida at that time, and the laws down there are that they can sell it at farmer's markets as long as it's labeled, you know, pet milk, which we all, so many of us have heard of those loopholes. So I bought some pet milk and tried it and like I said, I was in South Florida, in the heat. So if that inflammation, I was training all the time, so if that inflammation was gonna come back, I would've noticed it very quick, or the sensitivity to the sun, would've noticed it very quick. And I started drinking a lot of raw milk pretty quick and did not have one [00:10:00] relapse I would call it, of those symptoms.

And I was just a believer ever since then. And that's really when I started to go down that rabbit hole of, okay, clearly this food is extremely healthy, extremely nutritious, has so many benefits. Why is it essentially illegal? At least to a degree in so many states, or they make it at least hard to get that you can't just buy it off the shelves.

I would say that really is kind of what sent me down that rabbit hole because I had just experienced the benefits of it and how great it was. So it's like, hold on. You mean the government maybe doesn't want us to be healthy? So it kind of opened a rabbit hole that's a lot bigger than milk. And that's how we got into it.

And my best friend and business partner, Luke, has essentially the same story. We were kind of on the same trajectory and yeah, we just went down that rabbit hole and have not been able to come out [00:11:00] yet. So, uh, here we are. 

Maureen Diaz: Yeah, they're, and benefiting from it. I don't think it's that the government necessarily thinks about not wanting us to be healthy, but they certainly don't do anything to help us to truly be healthy.

They seem to do what benefits industries rather than individuals, unfortunately. 

[00:11:20] 500 Gallons of Raw Goodness a Day and MORE at The Family Cow

Maureen Diaz: So, yeah. But Edwin, you and your family farm have thrived for almost 20 years now. How many gallons of milk are you delivering to families now? 

Edwin: Oh boy, that's a difficult calculation, um, simply because I don't, yeah, we don't, we don't just track it all entirely. But we're milking a hundred and 10 cows right now, and they were about four gallons a cow per day.

So whatever that is. Yes, so that's 400 and some, 500 gallons a day maybe of milk produced. And we're selling it all as either raw milk to be drank as raw mlik, or else cheese, butter cream. So yeah, you can do [00:12:00] math. 500 gallons times 365, that would be our, the amount of gallons roughly per year that we would market. 

Maureen Diaz: Yeah, and then it also goes into, um, yogurt, kefir. 

Edwin: Right, right. Yeah. That's all of that. That figure was included with this, but I meant marketing it one way or another as a raw milk product. 

Maureen Diaz: It goes out like that as well as meat and, and other products from the farm that are all regeneratively raised, natural god-given principles. Right. And so that's why, that's why we've been friends for a long time, through my work with Weston A Price Foundation, Edwin was one of our farmers. 

[00:12:35] Raw Milk Fasting and How Amazing Raw Milk is as a Complete Food

Maureen Diaz: But I remember during our years of acquaintance that there was one time, Edwin, when you also did a raw milk fast. Mm-hmm. Do you wanna talk about 

Edwin: Yes, that, I don't know how, I can't remember, there was, I think there's some books that I read about how raw milk is such a complete food. It might have been even this thought, and I still like to think of this sometimes, that there's only really two foods that we have as a part of our diet that [00:13:00] were by God designed as foods specifically.

And what I mean by that is, okay, let's say you eat, let's say you're eating peas or green beans. We all know that when you're eating peas, you're eating, you're really eating the seed. Yes. You're eating the seed of the plant. And so arguably we could say that the purpose of the seed is to produce more plants.

Mm-hmm. We disrupt the process in the bit, we harvest it and we, you know, we cook them and eat them and they're great for that too. Same way with corn, same way with almost anything we eat. Same way, okay, you like a T-bone steak? Was the T-bone steak designed specifically for you to eat? Or was it designed for the locomotion of the cow?

Well, I think we know the primary purpose of the muscle that we're consuming, even though it makes wonderful food for us, the primary purpose was for that cow to the mobility of the animal. Milk and eggs are the two unique substances that are provided in the food system uniquely as a food source. Mm-hmm.

You know, milk, it [00:14:00] doesn't have a purpose. It doesn't provide the cow locomotion, it's not to reproduce more cows as in, you know, like a reproduction action or anything. It's just, it is the food source for the calves, um, same way with the eggs, it's the food source. 

And, and so in that way, you take that chicken that develops for the first 21 days.

You know, the bones develop, the brain develops, the eyes develop, the entire chick, even though it's small, completely develops from the nutrition that is in that egg. Same way with the milk that calf will live on that milk for sometimes, uh, almost milk alone for maybe the first 3, 4, 5 months.

 And, and so bone development's happening, structure development, the calf's getting taller, the hair coats growing, the eyes, brain, everything's all developing in that calf entirely from the nutrition of that milk. That tells us that milk and eggs are a very, very complete food in and of themselves.

Yeah. And so for whatever reason, uh, yeah, I did a raw milk diet once, actually more than once. The one time, particularly the first time I did [00:15:00] it, I think I lost about 30 pounds. And the, the theory for me was that milk has lots of the fat that are there, the beneficial fats that are there, are very satisfying to hunger.

But in reality, you know, you drink maybe a half a gallon of milk a day, divide that into cup portions. So you still have eight cups basically a day. And it's, it's a fast in one sense, but in another sense, you actually feel fairly well satisfied cause you drink a cup and a cup and a cup, but eight times throughout a day you're drinking a cup of milk.

Mm-hmm. A cup of whole milk with all that good fat in there actually is very nourishing and satisfying. And yet the calorie, actual calorie level is, is relatively low, especially for, you know, a six foot, six foot farmer. Yeah. And so yeah, I was able to lose about a pound a day, roughly, on that diet, and still function, still work, still, you know, perform my work like always, and not really even [00:16:00] experience that much hunger.

It was just actually very, very interesting to just, be able to feel physically fit, mentally alert. Oh, it just, I remember how I just, I really felt mentally alert because my body wasn't burdened down with all of that, I guess food digestion. Yeah. You know, it was just like very, uh, very easy. Now, I did use, I will say give this the disclaimer is, it wasn't always fluid milk per se, in other words, sometimes I was using raw milk kefir. My rule was that it wasn't gonna have anything additional. It wasn't gonna have additional calories or sugars or things like that. But I would use raw milk kefir. That was even, I think maybe some additional benefit because it definitely is, it very much easier to digest even than what milk itself is.

Maureen Diaz: That's interesting, and two thoughts come to mind also as you're talking, and Tommy, I wanna ask you if you've ever done this as well, so keep that in mind. But God's creation has me in absolute awe, I just marvel at it. [00:17:00] One of the things you're talking about, milk sustaining you, and that milk comes from grass.

Mm-hmm. And I look out into the pasture and I see those cows, or I look out, one of my favorite animal is a horse, and I see how all that they eat are the grasses of the field. And out of those grasses come these magnificent creatures, strength with amazing strength, speed, agility, ability. And I'm just totally in awe.

And you enjoyed the benefit of the milk that came from the cow, that came from the grass. And I just, I think that's amazing. 

[00:17:47] Truth or Fiction: Are Humans the Only Species to Consume Milk of Another Species?

Maureen Diaz: Now, the other point that I'll mention, as I mentioned to you earlier when we were walking, is that people often say to me, and Tommy people have I'm sure said this to you, um, [00:18:00] humans are the only species on the earth that consume the milk of another species and into adulthood or past infancy.

And my response always has been, well, we're the only ones with fingers like this. And yeah, the brains, so the God-given ability to figure out how to do things, and computers and all of that stuff. Opposing thumb, yeah, perfect for hand milking as I did for years. 

Edwin: A dog can't milk a cow. 

Maureen Diaz: No, but he sure will be happy if you're milking your cow

and you squirt it. 

Edwin: He would drink the milk if I use my hands, my opposing thumbs to milk the cow for him. 

Maureen Diaz: Yes, exactly, that's right, I love it. Um, Tommy, what are your thoughts on that? 

Tommy: That's definitely such a common thing that people will say is that humans are the only species that drink milk into adulthood. And yeah, definitely what you said, we're the only ones that can, and anytime you give any other animal [00:19:00] the opportunity to drink milk that has been milked by a human, they tear it up.

We actually did a, a kind of like a montage video of that on Instagram one time where we put that question, that point on the screen in quotes about how humans are the only ones that drink milk. And then we pretty much just went through all the farm animals, the pigs, the cats, the dogs, the chickens, all just tearing up the milk and pretty much dispels that.

Oh, I would also say humans are the only species that do a lot of things, that inherently that point alone doesn't prove anything, right? Um, we're certainly the only ones who speak the English language. So does that mean that's bad and we should stop it? Or we're the only one that wear garments that we make from things.

So, you know, if someone's gonna go down that whole train of thought, you know, are you gonna be a nudist? Like you, you can't follow that train of thought and just really know [00:20:00] science behind it. It's just an interesting observation that we're the only ones that are capable of milking.

Beyond that, obviously it doesn't do anything to prove that milk is bad for us at all. 

Maureen Diaz: It's not a logical argument at all. 

Edwin: One of the things that just stood out to me as we were talking here is that, um, if you want to keep the analogy within the food world, we're also the only ones that plant crops.

Yeah. You know, there's all kinds of eating all the vegetables, the strawberries, the lettuce, the whatever, maybe you're a vegetarian even. But nevertheless, the vegetable planting is only done by humans. Mm-hmm. So, mm-hmm. I mean then it's bad. Well, no, obviously that's, yeah, that's a fallacious argumentation.

Maureen Diaz: Yeah. Right. Have you ever done a raw milk fast, Tommy? 

Tommy: No, but I've heard about it so much and, uh, really interesting to hear Edwin's experience on it. 

[00:20:53] But What About the Sugars in Milk? Can You Go Into Ketosis on a Milk Fast? 

Tommy: I guess one question I would have, and really this could be thrown out to both of you guys, because it's a [00:21:00] point that has come up with some people in our circle, is the relationship between raw milk and I guess we'll say quote unquote, you know, keto or going into ketosis.

So we have some friends who are I'd say pretty big on the keto movement and pretty much see eye to eye on everything. But their stance is there's too many sugars in the milk for a, you know, to, and they think it'll take them out of ketosis or whatnot. And yeah, I'd be curious, the reason I thought about it too was I was curious if Edwin, to his knowledge, went into ketosis at all during the fast. And then, yeah, so I'd be curious about that. But then also just that question in general, what are your guys' thoughts on people who are scared of the sugars? 

Maureen Diaz: And that's actually something that I've thought a lot about. I do typically a modified keto, I don't believe in eliminating long-term and especially permanently whole food groups.

[00:22:00] Mm-hmm. But I know you can address the pig factor and how we fatten up pigs on, not on whole milk, but on skim milk. Skim milk, yeah. 

And you also mentioned, I haven't done a raw milk fast yet. I will actually starting, I have a party on Saturday, so Sunday morning. Um, I'm gonna take some milk home with me today, so I have plenty.

 But I think native cultures around the world took most of their milk and cultured it into other products like cheese and yogurt and kefir. Mm-hmm. And you did, you mentioned you did kefir. 

Edwin: Right, right. If the sugar is a concern, milk does have lactose, even if that's, that's milk sugars.

[00:22:41] Fasting and Benefits of Kefir or Yogurt For Lower Sugar Content

Edwin: If someone is diabetic or whatever reason they're really trying to keep their milk sugars low, I'd recommend them to do a kefir diet. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, because kefir, the lactobacillus acidophilus bacteria, it's really neat, I like to say that word because you think about it, lactobacillus, they feed on lactose.

But then the [00:23:00] acidophilus part is, what they're doing is converting that milk sugar into lactic acid. So lactobacillus acidophilus, and that's why you take a sweet product like raw milk and the lactobacillus acidophilus converts that sugar, digest it or whatever it does, breaks it down, turns it into lactic acid, and now you have a sour product like kefir instead of the sweet product like milk. 

Kefir, when it's fully fermented has a very reduced, I'm not sure what percent, maybe almost a hundred percent of the actual sugars taken away from it. There's still some carbohydrates there, uh, from the fats and things like that, there's still some energy there. But the actual lactose is pretty much, you know, eaten, you might say, by the beneficial bacterias.

So yeah, that, that's a good point. If somebody really wants to get away from the milk sugar part, go ahead and do a kefir diet. 

Maureen Diaz: I'm gonna throw a caveat out though. You and I are very accustomed to having cultured and fermented products. If you are not, kefir is really, really [00:24:00] potent. And I always... 

Edwin: It's totally true blue.

Maureen Diaz: Yeah, I mean, you definitely want to be able to enjoy it. And I say enjoy because it has real benefits and it can be, I find it very enjoyable. I have some on my counter at home now that'll be two days old when I go back to it. Um, but I recommend people start out with a 24 hour cultured yogurt instead.

Obviously, preferably raw, because we're talking about raw milk here, and the benefits of raw milk, and one of which is it, it maintains the integrity of the nutrients. Right. However, if that's a problem, uh, here in Pennsylvania, in Lancaster County, there is a company that produces a 24 hour cultured yogurt.

So it's, most of the milk sugars are consumed, and it's made with A2, A2 totally grassfed jersey milk. So it's actually really good quality milk going into it to begin with, and then a [00:25:00] very reduced sugar. And yogurt as opposed to kefir has about three to five different organisms. Now, this company that I'm talking about, Trimona, it's a Bulgarian style yogurt with five different active cultures.

And when we're talking about a cultured product, it's not as critical necessarily that the, the input of milk is raw. I don't think ultra pasteurized milk is ever good in any way, shape, or form. Vat pasteurized is somewhere in the middle, still not the best, still not preferable. But when you're culturing, the culturing itself produces more nutrients. And at a low temperature, vat pasteurization, the integrity of most of the fat soluble nutrients are still there. So a whole milk 24-hour, [00:26:00] cultured and raw or low temperature, vat pasteurized product is fine. 

Start with yogurt, maybe yogurt and raw milk, full fat though, never skimmed at all, totally whole milk, I'll even add cream if I can. And then work into kefir because kefir, we're talking three to five organisms that are active in yogurt versus 23 to 28 in kefir. If you start out on just kefir, it can overwhelm your gut and you'll be very unpleasant to be around for a while. So work up to kefir if you're not used to these kinds of products.

Edwin: Yeah. We tell our customers the same thing. 

[00:26:42] Don't Have Access to Raw Milk? Do This to Get the Most Benefit From Pastuerized Milk 

Edwin: Occasionally we'll have a customer from far away maybe, and they say, I don't have access to raw milk. I really wish I did, but I live far away from you. What can I do? I want to have the benefits and, and we'll say to them, look, get the absolute best, preferably organic pasteurized milk that you can get, [00:27:00] yeah, and make kefir outta it. Because essentially, uh, when you add those kefir cultures back in, you're adding enzymes back in, you're adding probiotic back in, and you are maybe not a hundred percent, but you are definitely, as long as it is, especially if it was cream line not homogenized, you're adding, you're essentially turning it back to raw milk again. Maybe not quite, you understand what I'm saying? 

Maureen Diaz: Yeah, yeah. Not literally, you still had some of the nutrients destroyed in vat pasteurization, but they're largely recreated through the fermentation. 

Edwin: Beneficial bacteria and the enzymes, particularly the enzymes that are destroyed in pasteurization, yeah, will be added back in with the culture, culture. 

[00:27:39] Enzymes in Raw Milk vs. Pasteurized Milk: Lactase, Phosphatase, and More

Maureen Diaz: Yeah, and so mentioning enzymes, I'd like you guys to talk a little bit about enzymes in raw versus pasteurized, either of you. Mm-hmm. 

Tommy: The, the first one, which is really the main one I know about is lactase, right? Which, uh, Edwin was just talking about lactose. And [00:28:00] that seems to just be one of the biggest differences between pasteurized and raw milk, that I think accounts for a very noticeable experience that people have when trying it the first time is, if people grew up, especially being quote unquote lactose intolerant.

My brother fell into that category, he grew up drinking Lactaid and all of that. When they, a lot of times, they will try raw milk that obviously has lactase in it, which is that enzyme to break down the lactose. They notice very quickly that their stomach can handle it better, um, do not have any of the problems. So, as far as enzymes go, lactase is really the one that I know about the most and understand the best. 

Edwin: If I can speak to another one that is very important is phosphatase. Um, if you look up phosphatase, you'll discover that phosphatase is [00:29:00] necessary for the absorption of calcium. And so suddenly we've got this revelation of how it can be that even people who are drinking milk, drinking milk, drinking milk, you know, pasteurized products and they're like, oh, I still have osteoporosis.

What's happening here? Yeah, I'm drinking all this milk like I'm supposed to. Well, without the phosphatase enzyme, you know, by definition phosphatase is necessary for the absorption of calcium. You got calcium in there that is not able to be properly absorbed by the bones because phosphatase is absent.

And what is so really interesting is, phosphatase is the actual enzyme that the pasteurization industry checks for to be sure that the milk is fully pasteurized because it's so well known in science that phosphatase is a little tougher to kill than, than most of the bacteria that they're trying to kill.

So basically they use it as the indicator. In other words, we raise our pasteurization temperatures, we run the milk through, and then at the end, we do what they call a negative phosphatase test. [00:30:00] And if it passes the negative phosphatase test and the phosphatase is all proven to be dead, then that means, you know, by inference that therefore the, the milk has been properly pasteurized.

If they detect phosphatase still there, they go, oh, the pasteurization temperature wasn't high enough. And so I'm just like, thinking about this. Don't they connect the dots? We're intentionally, maybe I shouldn't say intentionally. They're, they're actually heating the milk to kill the bacterias. But they know that, and maybe not intentionally, but they actually are full aware that they're killing the phosphatase.

Yeah. And yet over here, looking up the dictionary, phosphatase is necessary for the absorption of calcium. Yeah. And yet we're selling this milk that we've taken the phosphatase out of, to people who probably are not aware that they need the phosphatase to absorb calcium. And we're telling them, drink your milk to get the calcium. 

Maureen Diaz: To get the calcium and, and then it's skimmed milk a lot of the time because fat is bad and you need the fat soluble, right, activators, yeah, to absorb [00:31:00] the calcium anyway, and that's gone too. Right. Uh, but yeah, there's also lipase and protease. Right, right. And raw milk digests itself.

Right. So yes, we've got, we've got the lactase, we've got the phosphatase. We've also got the lipase to digest fat. And the, um, protease to digest proteins. 

So we all should be drinking milk that is raw to get the benefit from all of that. 

However, we're gonna get into food safety in a moment. And so again, another caveat is it needs to be from animals that are grazing on the green grass and, and rotated. Um, and we'll go into that in just a second because that is super, super critical. 

But God gives us this package that is perfect for us and we totally mess it up in order to make it better, but it's not better. So for those of you listening who, who are told that you're lactose intolerant, or this, [00:32:00] or that, or that fat is bad, understand that everything is in the package the way God designed it for our bodies. Not just for the animals' bodies as well, but for our bodies. 

But let's talk a little bit about rotationally grazing them too. 

[00:32:17] Tommy's Dairy Farming Journey

Maureen Diaz: And Tommy, before we even get deeper into anything including that we didn't, uh, we didn't ask you about your experience on the farm, farms plural. Yeah. You discovered raw milk and... 

Tommy: So discovered raw milk and I was, uh, working and living in Virginia, after that little stint I had in florida. I was in Florida for a while and then, um, I was working in Virginia on a 300 acre property, which kind of gradually turned into a farm over the years. It started off with chickens the first year [00:33:00] and then pigs. And then it was 2020, July of 2020 where we got dairy cows. We got our first little herd of dairy cows. 

So we started off with a, uh, a Guernsey Jersey cross that we milked and then a Milking Devon. So that was, you know, kind of became my sole responsibility on the farm was the dairy cows, cuz I was the one that really pushed for getting 'em, cuz I liked the raw milk so much.

And yeah, we hand milked those girls for the better part of two years, you know, over the course of having them and breeding and things like that. So definitely really got that experience of, doesn't matter if you feel like milking, it doesn't matter what the weather is, doesn't matter if it's a holiday, you have to be there.

We weren't calf sharing either, which is a farming technique where you keep the calf with the cow, which it was actually, I wish I had known about that [00:34:00] earlier cuz I probably, you know, we could have gone on more vacations maybe over the years. 

And at a lot of these homesteading festivals that we go to, that's really where we started to hear about it because we're like, all these people had dairy cows we're like, how did you get away?

They're like, oh yeah, we calf share. We felt pretty dumb, but uh, lesson learned. 

So yeah, that was in Virginia and then we recently moved to Tennessee where we have pretty much a similar setup. So, um, couple dairy cows that we milk most days. We are calf sharing now though, so if we don't want to, we don't have to.

But, um, yeah, so I would really say my experience farming got started when we got the cows, because compared to especially a dairy cow, other animals can be, depending how you raise them, pretty low maintenance. Obviously the more you get into rotational grazing, everything becomes a little bit more hands-on for sure.

But, you know, if you want them to be, pigs can be [00:35:00] fairly low maintenance. Um, if you want them to be, chickens can be fairly low maintenance. But a dairy cow, I don't think anyone's cracked that code to make a dairy cow low maintenance. So it's been a good experience. 

Maureen Diaz: Yeah, good. And we used to go on vacation and I learned, not initially, it took me a few years, but I learned about calf sharing and that I could go to once a day milking also.

Mm-hmm. Even if I didn't want to go away, but keeping the calf with her mama for 12 hours, and then separating and then putting them back together. How do you handle the calves in your herd? 

Edwin: Uh, with a larger herd, everybody can get away, but we take turns milking, you know? Mm-hmm. There's the guys that normally milk the cows need to be off, then somebody else milks the cows. So in, in that way we don't do the calf sharing thing. We, we do feed the calves their mother's milk, mm-hmm, but we don't ever not milk the cows and just put the calves on [00:36:00] because of our larger cows, it would be more difficult.

Plus it makes it much more feasible to actually have a team of people that are actually milking the cows that are responsible. So, yeah. 

But I do know, I remember from my boyhood, um, our definition was of a vacation was that we would milk the cows at five o'clock in the morning, and we would hurry around and we would try to get on the road by seven to get to Washington, DC by nine, to tour everything that we could possibly see by two to get off and drive back home and milk the cows again at five o'clock. And we called that a day off.

Maureen Diaz: I don't know that I could call that a day off. 

Edwin: Well, to us it kinda was because all we did was milk the cows and we did it, we went to Washington, DC in the middle, see? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so this was a vacation and, yeah. 

Maureen Diaz: Not my idea. Um, but your calves do get the benefit of the colostrum and all of that. Yes, yes. They're not like, you know, yes. One of the things that does bother me [00:37:00] is about in large conventional operations mm-hmm, the calves ,Yes, are taken away almost immediately. 

Edwin: We, we get requests here, uh, pretty often from our customers that wish we could sell colostrum. Now, that's not a legal product in Pennsylvania, but we could sell it as pet milk or something like that.

And we just simply tell them no. Um, yeah, we're not willing to do that, that our calves get the colostrum and, but that's, I'm sorry, that's, that's one thing we just won't do, you know? 

Maureen Diaz: Yeah, I understand and I'm glad, yeah. Colostrum is good for humans, especially when we are sickly and need to recover from serious illness, but it is robbing the calves, right, of the nutrients that are designed for them. 

So we've talked some about the benefits of raw milk. Um, I mentioned the fat soluble nutrients. So don't you want full fat milk? The more cream the better, is my idea. And it will digest itself and will be able to absorb [00:38:00] all of the nutrients when it's not been pasteurized, or at least when we're culturing with yogurt or kefir and not high temperature pasteurizing milk to begin with, even to make those products.

[00:38:13] Raw Milk Safety 

Maureen Diaz: But now let's talk about the safety, the safety aspect, because that's such, such a hot button for so many. And, uh, we're here in Pennsylvania where in all the years that I worked with farmers through my work with Weston A Price Foundation, safety was talked about a lot and the state in general has frowned upon raw milk production and been quite successful in scaring people, uh, and not just Pennsylvania, but across the country.

Mm-hmm. And, which always seems so strange to me because other countries, um, other parts of the world consume it and even have, I know in Europe, in France and, and other countries there are actually raw [00:39:00] milk machines that are filled every day by farmers in towns and vending machines. Yeah, yeah. Vending machines.

And they're not concerned about it. It seems to just be primarily the United States that really puts the fear of God into you when it comes to drinking raw milk. Um, so that's the safety aspect that I want to delve into. Some of the world's best cheeses are raw milk cheeses. Mm-hmm. Many of the products that are famous around the world are derived from, from fresh grass fed, properly raised. 

Real mozzarella is high temperature processed, but it's coming from grass, originally from grassfed water buffalo, actually. Okay. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I, I visited a water buffalo farm just a few weeks ago, that was pretty neat. 

But let's talk about the safety aspects and [00:40:00] maybe why, why we are scared of it and why we don't need to be, and, mm-hmm, Tommy, you can talk about some of that and, and we're gonna talk with Edwin about his testing procedures and what that is all about. 

But do you have much, uh, experience with that Tommy? 

Tommy: On that homestead scale, not in a, you know, really intensive way as far as like the safety side of things. If it's our cows that we're doing for ourselves, mm-hmm, it's mainly, you know, just basic hygiene I would say pretty much. Come milking time, making sure, obviously the udder is clean and wash and, um, the buckets are clean and washed. Getting it in the fridge right away. I guess beyond that, really the biggest safety thing that we look at is one of the best safety practices you can have is ensuring that you just have a healthy, clean animal that's [00:41:00] eating what it's supposed to out in the pastures, you know, well taken care of.

Um, because yeah, that's, that's really where we get into so many problems is we wanna blame the milk if something goes wrong, instead of saying, well, If it did come from the milk, how was that cow living? Right. Or what was its living conditions? Is it trapped in a barn for a lot of its life standing in its own feces and things like that?

Is it surrounded by toxic chemicals? Is it eating cheap toxic grain that is just covered in glyphosate? So, um, yeah, beyond the basic hygiene, I would say just trying to be a good steward to the land and the animals is the biggest safety protocol that we have. 

Maureen Diaz: And to that point, I'll just briefly interject before, before Edwin addresses this, cuz he's really got a lot, a lot going on.[00:42:00] 

Mm-hmm. Um, I grew up in Wisconsin, America's dairy land, and right on to one side of my house there was a beautiful dairy, a small family dairy. The cows were always out on pasture and they were rotating. And this was in the 1970s. Um, I left in 1980, I think, and on to the other side was another family dairy that was just atrocious.

 The cows were typically every day standing knee deep in muck in their own manure. And then they were going into the milking parlor being milked, and the milk was being sent off to the creamery. Thank you for pasteurization in that case. But the, the two were just so opposite. Sadly, the beautiful farm has in recent years closed. They're [00:43:00] done, parents died, there's nobody to take it over anymore. 

The other one is still going, mm-hmm, and it's just as bad now as it ever was. But that's not the image of safety that, that we're looking for. Edwin, you have a lot of knowledge and experience in that, in the safety aspect. 

Edwin: As Tommy said here, uh, um, safety is multifaceted. You know, it does definitely help to have the cows in the pasture because if they're moved to new grass every day, you know they're leaving behind yesterday's excrement, they're moving to a pasture. The pasture has been sanitized, if I may say it that way, by the ultraviolet rays of the sun for the last 30 days, because the cows only come around about every 30 days to the same pasture that they were in, you know, 30 days prior.

And so the, we know that uv light is actually a very good purifier, sanitizer you might call it. And so, um, [00:44:00] yes, so there's a very good living environment there. Uh, the other, so the cows are laying on clean grass. It's, it's a, it's a good place for them, it's not nearly as pathogen loaded as what a barn that they're in 365 days a year would be.

The other thing is, that whenever you feed a cow zero or very low grain levels, you change the pH of the rumen. And, um, the rumen, if it's fed a lot of grain, tends to have a very acetic, you know, pH level. And the acetic rumen will provide a, um, a habitable environment for some of the worst pathogens.

E Coli, 0 1 5 7 H 7 is known to like an acetic rumen over a more buffered, uh, rumen. And so when you are feeding a cow a lot of grain, the likelihood, the possibility of there being E Coli 0 1 5 7 H 7 being shed in the cow's manure from [00:45:00] her digestive system is greater. Again, how much greater? It's hard to quantify all this. 

But we just simply know that when a cow is fed low grain levels, the manure that she puts out is much less likely to have some of those really bad pathogens in it. So you combine that with the fact that she's in a cleaner environment and all of those things put together does create, um, you know, a better environment to start with.

That doesn't mean that you don't need to be careful beyond that, obviously we still, because we're producing raw milk, we know that our milk is going for direct human consumption. We have a much more aggressive, I would call it, or more thorough, maybe it's a better word, cleaning method that we use on the cows udders before we put the milking units on.

 We just, you know, we have a very, uh, system that we developed over the years to make sure those teats are very, very surgically clean. Uh, we actually at one point, I remember my veterinarian and I having a bit of an argument over whether the method that I was using was really [00:46:00] better than the method that he was used to seeing done on other farms.

And I said, oh, you know, you got your opinion, I got mine. I said, I'll tell you what, let's actually do some swabs of the teat ends. I'll do some cows the way you want me to, and I'll do some cows the way our method is and we'll swab the teat ends. 

And, um, it was sort of interesting, but our, our method came back no growth. You know, there was no bacteria present there to even grow. His came back, they were clean, but there was a few, uh, colony forming units there. And so he said, okay, you win, do it your way. 

So yeah, you do, we do have to do that beyond all of these safety procedures. 

[00:46:38] The Raw Milk Institute: Extensive Safety Procedures and Requirements that Ensure the Health and Safety of Raw Milk Consumers

Edwin: And we are a part of, we're members of an organization called Raw Milk, uh, RAWMI, Raw Milk Institute. I couldn't even think of the last letter, I always say RAWMI, but it stands for Raw Milk Institute. It's a group of farmers that have been headed up by a farmer friend of mine in California named Mark McAfee. He runs the largest raw milk dairy in the world, I think. Uh, does a super, super clean job, very professional, provides thousands of people with good source of raw milk in California.

Uh, Mark McAfee established the Raw Milk Institute, and there has been, um, I don't even know now, is it 40, 50? 40 I think close. Other farmers that have joined that since, and we have some procedures that are unique to the Raw Milk Institute farmers, which is essentially going far above and beyond what our individual states might require.

One of those things for us, and I think it's pretty much everyone in Raw Milk Institute does this now, is uh, we actually do our own, we have our own laboratory on our farm. And we test, not just every once in a while do a random test, but we test every single time we bottle milk, uh, to be sure that the bottling, and I just demonstrated from Maureen here earlier today, she watched me actually run the lab samples.

Um, and it's, it's just a very, it's a system that [00:48:00] we do not because we think we need to, for our own health and safety of our family. We've, we've, you know, drank raw milk for generations. But we are aware of the fact that you get these immune compromised individuals who may been living on, you know, Mountain Dew and Twinkies, and all of a sudden they have this revelation one day that they want to start eating better.

And so they come and buy our raw milk. Their immune system is very compromised and we need to have a really clean product to allow those kind of people as well to consume this wonderful product and be a gateway entry into their better health. So we have to be especially careful. So that is some of the things that we do to ensure, uh, cuz I, I, we do get these phone calls now and then from someone who is a new raw milk drinker and they drank raw milk and a couple days later they're feeling sick.

And even though mm-hmm, may not be related in their mind they're worried. And so they call us and they say, oh, I'm feeling sort of bad. Do you think it was the milk? And I really, really like to say, and I never, I never [00:49:00] say to them, no, no, no, it certainly wasn't our milk. I just simply say, well, we have our own laboratory and we always test it, so I'm pretty sure it's not the milk, but tell me what the date code is on your bottle.

And so they'll say, well, it was it, it says July 15 on my bottle, it says 7 15. And I can go straight to the laboratory, pull up my paperwork and say, and I can reassure them that that specific date code was this much cleaner than was even required by law. And it helps them feel better. 

And it's massively, it's massively cleaner. It's like twice or 10 times cleaner sometimes than what authority requires. 

Maureen Diaz: Yeah, that's amazing. Um, but I was really impressed with this and I filmed, I filmed a walk through the pasture and through the milking parlor with Edwin, and then I filmed the lab and him demonstrating how he does this. So we are putting that up on our YouTube channel separately for you to watch and learn from.

But it's really fascinating and that [00:50:00] testing procedure, it's simple, and yet it makes so much sense. But it, it's reassuring and it confirms that raw milk properly produced is really safe. Mm-hmm. So I'm gonna point back towards you and let you talk a little bit more about that. Um, and Tommy too, in your situation, you are not doing as thorough a preparation to make sure that the cow's teats are as clean as in an environment that Edwin has.

When I milked my, my own personal cow, honestly, I didn't always even wash the teats. Mm-hmm. Because I was concerned if the teats were dirty and I'm wiping them with something wet mm-hmm, I might actually be spreading something that would get into my milk. So I oftentimes just rubbed them down really well.

Or I would use a povidone iodine solution sometimes, but none of us got sick, ever. Not from milk. From raw eggs we [00:51:00] got from another farm once, that was bad, but never from the milk. It's, it's, it's an inherently safe food. 

[00:51:09] Lactoferrins, Beneficial Bacteria, and Competitive Exclusion

Maureen Diaz: And on this point, lactoferrins in milk, do you wanna address that? The protective factors in milk 

Edwin: I'm not sure if I'm versed enough to, to speak on that. I've heard Mark talk about it before. Yeah. I, I, I've never researched that to the level that I should in order to speak on that. 

Maureen Diaz: Okay, so I've heard Mark talk about it. So, so I will. Go ahead. And you can interject anything you remember. I remember Mark talking about testing at their farm and the science behind all of the proteins and amino acids and protective factors, in addition to nutrients.

And I remember him, I'll have to interview him as well, I remember him talking about, um, that there are these proteins called lactoferrins. [00:52:00] Um, that actually are there balancing out the microbes anyway. So if the microbes are getting out of balance and what we call bad bacteria, which are not actually bad, they're just out of proportion or in the wrong place, if they become prevalent or growing or whatever in a way that could actually make us sick, the lactoferrins in unpasteurized milk, never pasteurized, even low temperature, um, that, that actually, you know, takes care of the pathogens and makes it safe. So raw milk, unless it's really filthy, raw milk should be just fine because the lactoferrins will take care usually. I'm sure not if it's really dirty or there's something really horrible.

Edwin: Yeah, I'm not well versed in that particular part of it. The, the part that does really resonate with me, with a farmer though, is what I call, and I think some other, I don't think this is, I don't think I made this up, but I might have, I do sometimes [00:53:00] come up with my own terms, but, um, I call it competitive exclusion.

 And the way I best illustrate it is if you have a nice lawn around your house and it's very heavily seeded with good grass, blue grass, it's just, it's nice and thick. You know, there'll be very few thistles grow there, because it's just so thickly carpeted. And even though there's thistle seeds blowing in the wind at the certain times of the year , there will be very little actually grow there.

If you were to take, uh, something, let's just say Roundup, and you come in and you sprayed it on the grass, you killed it all. Mm-hmm. And then you maybe even tilled the soil lightly and just left it lay there. You didn't plant anything new, you just left it lay there. That thing would be a thistle patch and other noxious weeds very soon, because they're in the air, they're present, they're, they're waiting to grow and they will grow.

Mm-hmm. But they will not grow when they're, when it is kept in a nice, heavy lawn. To me, when you leave the, the beneficial [00:54:00] bacterias and the enzymes, the lactoferrin and all the other myriads of good things which are in the milk, when you leave them all intact, it is harder for the bad things to take root.

And especially this is true as it comes into our gut with things like kefir and things like that. When we populate our gut with all these beneficial bacterias, we essentially feed and seed the probiotics, which keeps the bad life, from getting a foothold. It doesn't mean that there won't be a campylobacter or a lacto, you know, uh, you know, some kind of other bacteria come in there, but they will be overpowered by the, you know, competitive exclusion.

Maureen Diaz: And that's, that's exactly the same as, um, as the microbes within the gut, right, anyways, mm-hmm, that's a beautiful illustration of a system that God designed for our protection and health. 

 I'm looking up lactoferrin and raw milk.[00:55:00] Lactoferrin is a key ingredient in early life nutrition, and studies suggest it can also boost adult's immune systems. The benefits are largely because of the lactoferrin, antibacterial, antiviral and anti-inflammatory characteristics and enhanced iron absorption abilities. That's really important. Um, this is what website, I can put it in our show notes, um, I'm glad I looked it up. 

 But that is exactly what I remember Mark talking about then. And you read that and understand that pasteurization destroys that. We need to have, we need to have that factor in our milk in order for it to be safe, so that's pretty powerful. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[00:55:54] Can You Get Sick From Raw Milk?

Maureen Diaz: Do you know anybody who's gotten, who actually, you know, has gotten sick from raw milk?[00:56:00] 

Tommy: No, I don't. I don't either. I would say, I would say similar to what, Edwin and I have definitely heard of people like maybe trying it for the first time and feeling a certain way, but anything serious, I don't know anyone personally. 

Maureen Diaz: Okay. 

Edwin: Well, and when I was referring to those who, that that thought they were, there was a, there was one fellow I remember, it was true that he was feeling bad. Mm-hmm. And he had drank raw milk the first time, right, he thought they were related. They really weren't because I talked to him a little later, I said hey, weren't you the fellow that contacted me and were feeling kind of sick? And he kind of laughed and, and seemed embarrassed.

And he told me, he said, I actually had appendicitis. He said, I didn't want you to know, I kept on feeling bad, so I went and finally went to the doctor and I had appendicitis. 

So my point is, when we're afraid of something, you know how this works? When, when we're kind of afraid of something and, and then you, you, you taste it, you try it, and sure enough, a little bit later you're feeling bad. Right away we think, oh, that's what it was. It may not even be related at all. Yeah. And so mostly I would say the people that call us are those type of [00:57:00] situations where they, they, they're a little worried and they're saying, do you think it could have been this?

And it, you know, we just assure them that the milk was clean and it's been tested and, and usually they're, they're fine. Uh, and they acknowledge that yeah, it could easily be, uh, the flu is kind of going around in our community right now. Yeah. But I was just worried because this was my first time at drinking Raw Milk.

Maureen Diaz: Yeah, right. And, and over the years, the more than 20 years, 20 couple of years that I've been involved in the raw milk movement, I've been on protests on Capitol Hill, mm-hmm, and at the F D A headquarters, I've been on farm raids a couple of times. What I have seen happen many times is bureaucracy, intervention and promotion of persecution of raw milk.

Accusations made, and we're not gonna go into particular things, but it's been, it's been quite a few farmers that I've personally known[00:58:00] where they have, um, unfortunately tried to pin illnesses on raw milk that, as you just mentioned, have never borne out to be true in my knowledge. But certainly I would not be drinking raw milk or deem it safe if I were drinking it from a farm like I described growing up in Wisconsin. 

Edwin: Yeah. I, I do want to hasten to say to my, for myself that I, I would never want to go down on record saying that people can't get sick from raw milk. Yeah. Because it is a food and we know that whether it's lettuce or whether it's watermelon or spinach, if you do the research on, uh, the food safety websites, almost every food you can find somewhere somebody got sick of it at one point, even flour, you know? Yeah, oh yeah. So it is a possibility you can be contaminated. What I often see though is this, that you know, if it's some other food, it's kind of passed over as in Oh yeah, that happens sometimes. But if it's raw milk, suddenly this [00:59:00] proves something. Yes. 

And I remember, I can speak specifically to campylobacter jejuni because this was the one that we were accused of 12 years ago, 13 years ago or something, of having in our milk. And that particular one, I, I did the research, I went to the CDC website and said like, how many cases of Campylobacter jejuni are estimated to be in the United States for a year?

And, and I, I forget, I think it was something like 2.3 million, I think. Wow. It was a very high number. And so I broke it down into the state, you divide that by 50 states and you come up with, uh, I think it was something like 50,000 cases per state. And so you divide that by the week and you come up with about a thousand cases per week within any given state.

Okay. And so I said to the regulators at the time, I said, you know, okay, so you have these, whatever it was, 10, 20 people here that supposedly were sick this week from Campylobacter jejuni. But according to the CDC website, statistics, [01:00:00] apparently there's about a thousand people per week Is the normal rate in Pennsylvania, where are the other 950?

And are you concerned about them? What did they eat and why is it this raw milk thing? Well see the other people ate chicken, say, or they ate lettuce, or they ate spinach, and therefore, because those foods are not weird foods, they're just raw foods, there's no news really, when something is, and, and so that there's why I feel the discrimination comes in is that it's big news if it's this raw milk.

Mm-hmm. If it's something else, it's just sort of, uh, you know, business as usual. For sure. We figured it out, we figured out where did the contamination happen? We figured what went wrong, and we tell everybody else next week that it's perfectly fine to continue consuming that particular product because the problem has been fixed. 

With raw milk, rather than saying, oh, there was a problem that needed to be fixed, it's rather we vilify the whole food [01:01:00] category. Yeah, yeah. You know, we say this proves why people should never drink raw milk. Well, we don't say that for chicken, do we? So, I mean, honestly, campylobacter is mostly a chickens problem, you'll find that most often in chicken. It's also in, in, in leafy greens, very, very prevalent in leafy greens. 

Maureen Diaz: And is that possibly because leafy greens are watered, irrigated? 

Edwin: Some, yes, you get some sort of contamination. Of course they're eaten raw, right? Yeah. Cause you know, if you cooked, you realize if you cooked lettuce, if we made a law that you had to cook lettuce and you had to never eat a raw tomato, uh, and you had to cook all things, there would be less foodborne illnesses.

Because I mean, obviously eating raw lettuce, does have, it does... 

Maureen Diaz: It's not very appetizing though. 

Edwin: No, lettuce no. 

Maureen Diaz: No, no. And I know that there are significantly higher deaths due to pasteurized milk. Mm. I mean, there aren't deaths, there just aren't really deaths from raw milk, [01:02:00] but there are deaths from pasteurized milk and there are significantly higher confirmed cases of illnesses from pasteurized milk. So, um, we should just stop this, stop this train. 

Edwin: A lot of that is very subjective though, because of the fact that there is such a higher volume of pasteurized milk.

Of course, I wouldn't wanna go on record saying that pasteurized milk is more dangerous than raw milk. I just think that we need to look at it from a balanced standpoint and not vilify one or the other , because they both are foods and any food, yes, can be contaminated. Yes, it really can be. Yes. You know, even water itself, we know in the past there was some of the plagues that they didn't know what was happening and it was a waterborne pathogen. So, yeah. 

Maureen Diaz: Yeah, so we have to be aware of that. But pasteurized milk is nutritiously less, uh, less active than raw milk. So that's not safety, but I'd rather have the raw. 

[01:02:55] Raw Milk Safety for Babies and During Pregnancy

Maureen Diaz: And probably one last area to go into a question that I [01:03:00] often get is, is it safe for babies or is it safe for pregnant women? Mm-hmm. But specifically, is it safe for babies? Mm-hmm. And I'm wondering how many moms you are aware of mm-hmm. Who are getting your milk in order to make formula for their babies. 

Edwin: I know there's some, uh, we are required by law to put on each of our bottles that because this is raw, that it's not recommended for elderly persons, for immunocompromised persons, for pregnant women, and for babies.

We're required to put that on there. Yeah. And it is, it's on there. Um, I do know that in our, my own community, in our Mennonite community growing up, and even in our own family, you know, raw milk was drank by the women, you know, it was during their pregnancies and it still is. And the children, as soon as they were no longer nursed from their mother, were directed onto raw milk. 

Maybe we're unique, most of us grew up farmers, you know, we're very rural people. And we do not in our communities have, I would say it's [01:04:00] very little fear that, that I experience sometimes when I go other places. Mm-hmm. I just cannot really relate to it because we just don't have that fear. People are not really afraid of raw milk, you know? It's almost a baffling thing to them. Yeah. And still why somebody? You mean people are really afraid of this? Seriously? Yeah. You know? 

Maureen Diaz: Yeah, I always think that it's, anything that God gives you, we should not be afraid of. We should embrace and understand it's good for us if he designed it for us. 

 I did make raw milk formula for one of our babies, and he thrived on it for about a year. Mm-hmm. Um, I was expecting number eight, a little, a lot too soon, and my body just couldn't produce enough for him. Mm-hmm. And so I made raw milk formula from our family cow's milk, and he really honestly thrived.

Mm-hmm. And now I talk frequently with other moms who do the same or they want to know how to do it [01:05:00] and they ask my advice. But babies are so much healthier on a, on a homemade formula based with raw milk than they ever can be on formula that has high fructose corn syrup and soy protein and synthetic, um, vitamins and nutrients. Mm-hmm. So we need to be less scared. 

And I always say, know your farmer. Tommy, do you have anybody in your community that you're aware of who's making a formula for their babies? 

Tommy: I don't. We, we'll have to, uh, we'll have to try to recruit someone that can do that.

Maureen Diaz: Yeah. I know that, that our mutual friend, Tara and Jay, that I believe Tara has told me about one or two moms who purchased their milk so that they, Yeah, in addition to feeding their families. 

[01:05:53] Milk: Not Just From Cows!

Maureen Diaz: And we have historical records both, uh, biblically and extra biblically throughout [01:06:00] thousands of years of humans consuming milk, yeah, from naturally grazed animals. 

I did a fun thing recently that we're going to recreate and you're going to be part of it Tommy, at Polyface, okay. But recently with a friend of mine who loves milk, I challenged him to the Name That Milk, we, we made a little game of it. Mm-hmm. And we had, I opened with not milk, nut or something, which is not milk.

And then we went through camel, goat, water buffalo, cows milk, raw and pasteurized. Mm. So those milks, or the one not milk. Um, and the point of it, it, we were having fun with it. There are other animals that have been milked throughout the ages including horses. Mm-hmm. And, uh, even donkeys things like that, but water, buffalo goats, sheep.

 Um, I was with the sheep farmer yesterday, sheep's [01:07:00] milk farmer I should say. Um, lots of animals around the world that people have used in order to provide nourishment for themselves and their families, and they don't pasteurize it. Mm-hmm. But they do culture it, mm-hmm, they do sour it. 

By the way, raw milk, key point raw milk sours, which actually becomes more nutritious and of course less sugar, lowers the lactose. Whereas pasteurized milk putrefies, big difference. Mm-hmm. Even just the sound of it is different. 

So we find milk residue on shards of pottery from thousands of years ago. And the Bible post the days of Noah, we begin to see people were consuming curds and whey and butter and that kind of thing.

I'm not even sure that people didn't consume it, uh, but you know, Cain and Abel were raising goats and sheep. We talked about that actually in another podcast with Tommy and his friend Luke, yeah, and we'll put that reference also in our notes. But, um, it's an age old, God-given food and we shouldn't be afraid of it. Yes, we should be aware that it needs to be produced carefully. 

In my early days of raw milk consumption, I was going to a conventional dairy and picking up. Then I got a cow and then I was going to that same farm and buying feed - cotton seed meal, soybean meal, genetically modified corn. I learned pretty quickly that that was not the ideal food for any animal.

And I, and I stopped and I found a different source of, of non-toxic grain, but our cow was always, whichever one she was, was always fed almost entirely grass. 

So we just need to go back to God's design and not be afraid of it, I think is the point. Mm-hmm. But embrace His design and, um, be [01:09:00] aware of course of dangers, but also understand that for the most part we don't have to be afraid. And let's enjoy and benefit from it. 

[01:09:09] Thanks for Joining the Conversation with Edwin and Tommy!

Maureen Diaz: So any last words either of you. 

Edwin: I think you covered it well. 

Maureen Diaz: Okay. I think you guys covered it well. But it has been a wonderful morning spent here on the farm and, and seeing The Family Cow herd and the whole production and including the lab. It's been wonderful talking with Tommy and Edwin and I'm excited to be at Polyface August 11 through 13th to hear speakers talk about all of the aspects of God-given food, but especially and including milk, one of the best foods that God gave us.

And I hope you can enjoy it. I hope we see many of you there. You can go to GodsGoodTable.com to find out more about our event. 

Tommy, how can they find out more about you?[01:10:00] 

Tommy: They can find us either by going to RawMilkandDeadlifts.comor if they're on Instagram, our page is called Raw Milk and Deadlifts, all one word.

So that's where we hang out and they can get ahold of us. 

Maureen Diaz: Good, and, and that's fun. I always look for you. 

And Edwin, I have to say that your family puts out a really nice newsletter that I still enjoy, even though I don't live in Pennsylvania anymore. When I pop up here, I often run in and grab a gallon of milk, but I enjoy getting the newsletter and some of our listeners might enjoy that also, even if they're not in Pennsylvania.

But you do deliver milk all over the state of Pennsylvania. Mm-hmm. That's one thing that I think is unique and interesting about your operation. How can people learn more about you and your family's? 

Edwin: YourFamilyFarmer.com is the actual website. So if you plug in that and there's, yeah, there's a blog there, you can read back blog posts and there's a way to [01:11:00] sign up YourFamilyFarmer.com. 

And yeah, we do deliver all over the state of Pennsylvania in our own delivery vehicles. And there's a lot of people, uh, that will come from New Jersey, Ohio, Maryland, Virginia, New York, into the state to buy it that way.

Uh, we do also ship nationwide, all of our other foods except the milk. And that's because of a federal mandate that we can't cross state lines. However, our, our, our butter, our cheese, our beef and pork and stuff, all of that is available nationwide. And that also will be there, YourFamilyFarmer.com will connect you to all those resources. 

Maureen Diaz: Very good, thank you. I enjoy the cheese and the other products too. And they also have things like beet kvass, mm-hmm, other good foods. 

So thank you guys, thank you very much. And everyone listening, thank you for tuning in. Please share, please share our website, our podcasts, and our information, we appreciate it very much. But thank you everybody, and Tommy and Edwin. 

Edwin: Nice to meet you, Tommy.

Maureen Diaz: Thank you very much. 

Tommy: Great to meet you as well